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26. What did that come to mean . My understanding, ambassador sondlands use of that term was the three people in charge of ukraine policy during the summer where he, gordon sondland, ambassador volker and secretary perry. What did you come to, when did you come to learn about mr. Giulianis role and what do you consider his role to have been . I first heard about former mayor giulianis interest in ukraine in january of this year, that was a different phase than what happened during the summertime. Was it normal to have a person who is a privat citizen take an active role in foreign diplomacy . I did not find his particular engagement normal, no. Now, Ambassador Taylor, you testified that there are two channels, a regular and irregular. What did you see as Rudy Giulianis role in ukraine policy . Congresswoman, i came to see that mr. Giuliani had a large influence on the irregular channel. And was that normal . Is that normal to have a private citizen of the United States take an active r

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