and glen kirschner, former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst. you wrote an essay arguing that this is not the man we saw in new york all of those decades ago. so when you hear the mayor say he has not changed, what goes through your mind? look, i mean, rudy giuliani was considered kind of a paragon of integrity in the 1980s. i tell the story about an old childhood friend who came to visit giuliani with a framed picture of the two of them together when they were children. giuliani took the picture out of the frame, took the picture, and gave the frame back, and he said i can t take that frame. he was just scrupulous about his ethics. that is not the giuliani we re seeing today, the person who s tried to overturn the election, someone who pushed the fake elector scheme, someone who told falsehoods about the election
rico is not just a legal tool to him. rico is part of his life story, part of his identity. he tells a story about how he had this eureka moment at the justice department, listening to joe banana on television, talking about the five families getting together, kind of god father like, and making big decisions, and how it was he who decided, that s how i can bust them. i can use the rico act. he s so identified with rico, it s part of his identity, part of his self-worth, and georgia is employing rico against anymore, kind of draws a knife into the heart of his legacy, and it must hurt. andrew kirtsman, jay tom morgan, glenn kirschner, what a fascinating conversation, thank you so much for being on the program. next, a stunning story of survival, a lahaina resident joins us with unbelievable
statements to the georgia legislature, trying to get the georgia election overturned. that was in the defamation case, so he s already admitted that what he said was false. and now the prosecutor just has to prove that he did it with intent to overthrow the election, and i think that s pretty obvious. rudy giuliani, i m looking it up, he s 79 years old. i wanted to double check myself on this. and i m wondering, glenn, when you ve dealt with defendants before, how that and the prospect of prison can play into their mindset? yeah, you know, once somebody sees their name as a charged defendant, particularly on a rico indictment, i prosecuted rico cases in federal court in washington, d.c., it tends to become very real, and, you know, rudy giuliani is not a young man. a rico conviction, almost any conviction could be the equivalent of a life sentence, so you do have to wonder whether
reporter ryan reilly from washington and former federal prosecutor glen kirschner. thank you for being with us this morning. ryan, we mentioned one of trump s co-defendants in the federal classified documents case pleaded not guilty just moments ago. what can you tell us about that hearing? yes, so third time s the charm here, initially we saw an appearance late last month and another one scheduled for next week, but hasn t been able to secure a local lawyer and finally this third court appearance we have a not guilty plea entered. i think it illustrative of some of the complications that come up when you add several defendants, for example, 19 defendants in fulton county there that really this case is really just has become complicated and can lead to delays and the timeline can quickly slip. when you talk about that many defendants. already we re talking about a couple, handful of defendants, and the mar-a-lago documents case, and you have these issues come up and these delays and
simply communicate on things like timing, on the potential for trial dates, because when you have, you know, four criminal trials on your dance card, there has to be some coordination, some communication, and some prioritizing of, you know, who should go first who should go second, who should go third. i actually hope that that s an indication that d.a. willis is at least communicating with her fellow prosecutors. ryan reilly and glen kirschner, thank you for being with us this morning. overnight, the prosecutor at the heart of this case became one of the most well known lawyers in the country. fulton county d.a. fani willis took office in 2021, just days before the first reporting from the washington post about trump s january call to georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger, pressing him to find votes. we do know willis has served 19 years as a prosecutor. and her office says their conviction rate hovers around