Hello and welcome to cross talk. Were all things are considered. Im peter live out in many ways the west ukraine proxy war in russia is all about narratives. First deployed was russias unprovoked attack. Then it was admitted, it was natos expansion. Ease that served as a catalyst starting the conflict. Now were told its all about the future conflict with china. Take your pick. It all boils down to western to gemini, the in processing russia and china. Im joined by my guess, carl john in raleigh. Hes a political analyst historian and host of the silk and steel podcast and in london, we have ad, real consumptive. He is the founder of a k consulting and a Foreign Affairs analyst, right across top roles that affect gentlemen jumping down me want and i always appreciated. I let me start out with carl in, in raleigh. As i said in my introduction, weve seen over the last 20 months, these, this change of the subways in, in the narrative, and how to describe what was go, what is going on now in