Transcripts For FOXNEWSW Americas Newsroom 20141209

Darrell issa is never a shy questioner when it comes to these things. He runs the thousands Oversight Committee. He describes it as obamacare through deception. Lack of transparency is a huge political advantage age. Call it the stupidity of the American Voter or whatever, bit was critical to get is passed. We just tax Insurance Companies and they pass it on to the consumers. Its a clever exploitation of the basic lack of understanding about it American Voter. Turns out political chicago its hard to get rid of and the only way we could take it on was by mislabeling. Calling it a tax on Insurance Companies when we all nots really a tax on the American People who hold the plans. Martha hes not the only one testifying today, right . He will be joined by the administrators of the medicare services. She does not want to be seated next to mr. Gruber. Lawmakers are going to put them together and dig down on some of those comments he made about the lack of transparency as it relates to laying out obamacare. The stupidity of the American Voters and he believed many law makers did not know what was in balk care or understand the financing of it, then you will have tavenner at a time when Many Democrats are trying to flee from Jonathon Grubers comments you will have her trying to get away from him and try to put some distance. But they will be right next to each other and the questioning will begin in 30 minutes. Martha there are so many layers to all of this. Bill who is gruber snow had quite a career dealing with healthcare reform. From 20032006 he was a key architect in designing the Massachusetts Healthcare law which became the model for obamacare later. In 2008 he was brought into advise the Obama White House and was brought in as a technical con sit and the to help craft the law. He visited the white house 19 times. This latest visit in june of this year. Martha he got paid millions of dollars in taxpayer money earning 5 million from federal contracts including 392,000 from health and a 2 million grant funded by the National Institutes of health. He got paid nearly 2 million from the Justice Department for services as an expert witness. Bill as we learn more about the money he earned democrats started distancing themselves from gruber, including the president. The fact that some adviser who never worked on our star expressed an opinion that i completely disagree with in terms of the voters noise reflection on the that was run. Bill back in 2006 the president was seen praising gruber and some of the other policy experts. You have already drawn some of the brightest minds from academia and policy circles, some of them i have stolen ideas from liberally. Jonathon gruber. Bill video doesnt lie. What difference will it make, to steal a line from somebody else . We are not likely to learn a thought from Jonathon Gruber because hes highly incentivized to not give awaive the game. He knows hes supposed to sit there and he said before. But we can see a lot come out of this hearing of the politics of obamacare and for 2016 its consequential. There is already a super pac running a gruber ad against Hillary Clinton in iowa and new hampshire. They are already saying grubers plan, democrats intentionally deceived voters and Hillary Clinton and her Healthcare Plan is part of a broader duplicity, and Jonathon Gruber makes the star witness for republicans because of his arrogance and taunting attitude and all of this cockiness makes him a very attractive witness. Bill this is brandnew video of gruber walking into that hearing room. Do you expect defines or compliance. The ones who really despise him are democrats because he blew their cover. They dont want to sit at the same table with this guy. They hate this guy. Unlike other controversial Administration Figures democrats will be joining the pileon. But they will be trying to direct it. They will say gruber is just some jerk, hes just some guy. You talk about the 19 visits he had to the white house. One was when the law was about to tang. The president brought him into the oval office for the highest level hud toll try to save the d the highest level huddle to try to save the law. Thank you, sir, part of grubers advantage he has, he could score. He can tell you what its going to cost under each provision. Thats why they went to him time and time again instead of waiting for the Congressional Budget Office to tell them. Martha he will have a hard time distancing himself. He briefed the white house staff members. The white house turned the writing of the legislation over to congress. He talked to the staffers how to score it. They can put him at arms length to a certain extent dew not completely. Martha the Controversial Senate Intelligence Committee report on cia interrogations is set to begin two hours from now. Its a 500pang version of a 6,000pang text. Its expected to be graphic in detail. Former Vice President dick cheney is slamming the release in this report and the references he says to socalled torture. He set its a bunch of hooey. The proper was authorized and it was reviewed legally by the Justice Department before they undertook the program. Cheney set the criticism of the cia is just a crock in his opinion. James rosen is live in washington with more on this. James, this is pretty incredible. This report is literally years in the making. What do we know what we are going to see in this . The first and most hotly disputed conclusion is the methodsed the bushcheney Investigation Called enhanced interrogation techniques. From president bush and Vice President cheney, he he they were with the ape of preventing another mass casualty attack on the homeland. They also claim the techniques worked. I do know that information we got from detainees including detainees who had undergone enhanced interrogation contributed to the wealth of knowledge that we needed to have in order to find. Alkuwaiti. Reporter president obama against the advice of leon panetta released the membership ohs justifying the approved techniques. The president acknowledged there is a variety of views across the federal government about whether the techniques produced actionable intelligence. Even if they did, it was not worth it and it did not enhance the National Security of the United States of america. Reporter Dianne Feinstein, california democrat expected to speak on the floor 10 00 a. M. Eastern time. Bill as we watch gruber on one screen well catch feinstein on another screen. Why is this report being released now and should it be released at all. Martha riots for a third night in a row. Protesters take together streets shutting down a major interstate and causing a major problem for one woman. Bill the House Oversight committee jonathon grauber taking questions on that house overtight committee. How will he answer for comments like these . I wish that president obama could have stood up and said, you know, i dont know if this bill is going to control costs. It might or might not. Well do our best but let me tell you what it will do. 15 billion football has a season. Baseball has a season. This is our season. With Contour Detect Technology that flexes in 8 directions for the perfect shave at any angle. Go to philips. Com new for savings on shavers and trimmers. Innovation and you. Philips norelco. Martha chaos in downtown berkeley. Hundreds of people taking over the streets for a third night in a row. The protesters hard for hours shutting down a train station and major interstate. Backed up traffic for miles. The situation got so bad a woman went into labor while she was snuck traffic. She was picked up by an ambulance and taken to hospital. Those protests dispersing a few hours later. Bill waiting to begin the House Oversight hearing the hill. Former obamacare architect Jonathon Gruber will face tough questions about all those comments he made on the law and how it works from the inside. Meanwhile there are more comments that surfaced from gruber dog in recording from two years ago. He says they lived about the costs of healthcare. F even if we knew to you a control costs we couldnt do it internally. You have got to take that seriously in this bill. What do you do . You do what i like to say is a spaghetti approach. You throw a bunch of stuff against the wall and see what sticks. Bill senator barrasso is with me. What we heard there is all about deception, isnt it . It seems to me, gruber, the president , nancy pelosi who say they have relayed on gruber for advice, basically this was as healthcare law deliberately designed to deceive the American People. The president s promises turned out to be false. Didnt come forward in a way that people and people know that. They wouldnt able to keep their doctor. Their premiums went up, not down. What the president promised the mayor cash people never came true which is why the healthcare law continues to be so very unpopular today. Then we are seeing of the 60 senators who voted for it, come january only 30 of them will still be in the senate. Bill he said we actually asked many politicians to vote against their selfinterests and continue against what their constituents were telling them. He did exactly that because the constituents were saying we dont want this. When scott brown won that seat in massachusetts which was ted kennedys seat, that should have sent shock waves too all the democrats on capitol hill and said we shouldnt pass this. There is huge damage done across the country to americans trying to live under this healthcare law. Their premiums have gown, their copays have gone up, their deductibles have gone up, they cant keep their doctor and hospital. I talked too someone this morning, they called 10 different appointments trying to get an appointment with a doctor who is supposed to be on the plan and cant gets an appointment. The new story from the Inspector General of health and Human Services. Half of the of the doctor supposedly available for medicaid patient arent taking new patients. This new law has turned out to be terrible for people seeking healthcare. Bill gruber is on the hotline. His name is on the marquee. I think it does expose the things we were talking about since this healthcare law was debated on the floor of the United States senate. The president focused so much on the word coverage and ignored the word care. People have coverage which isnt very useful. They cant meet their deductible, they cant see their doctor, but they have obamacare coverage. Its like giving somebody a bus ticket when no bus is coming. The American People knew what they wanted in healthcare reform. They wanted quality, they wanted choice, and they wanted affordability. And they havent gon gotten tha. Will the hearing change anything do you believe . I dont think it will. He will be in here and he will be very scripted. I would like to see him answer questions about the laugh the way it was deliberately designed to deceive the American People. Bill well see if you have get your wish. 11 minutes away from the start of that hearing. March rar there is growing outrage about the decision to release the report on cia interrogation techniques. The Senate Committee making a call thats warn could lead to a serious backlash against our military and against americans. This currents president shared the concerns that at all at they are being thrownened the bus . And our big idaho potato truck is still missing. So my buddy here is going to help me find it. Here we go. Woo who, woah, woah, woah. Its out there somewhere spreading the word about americas favorite potatoes heart healthy idaho potatoes and the american heart associations go red for women campaign. If you see it i hope youll let us know. Always look for the grown in idaho seal. Everyone is looking for ways while to cut expenses. S unique, and thats where pg es Online Business Energy Checkup tool can really help. You can use it to track your Actual Energy use. Find rebates that make equipment upgrades more affordable. Even develop a Customized Energy plan for your company. Think of it as a way to take more control over your operating costs. And yet another Energy Saving opportunity from pg e. Find new ways to save energy and money with pg es Business Energy checkup. Martha a disturbing story of a vicious stabbing attack at a brooklyn synagogue. It shows the suspect running around with a knife in his hand before being shot by police. This entire incident unfolding in the basement of the synagogue where people had gathered for prayer. A really tense situation in the basement of that synagogue. Tell us what happened. Reporter that apparent antisemitic stabbing happened in a brooklyn synagogue. He reportedly said i want to kill the jew as he rushed in and stabbed the praying student in the neck. Police say 4yearold Calvin Peters 49yearold Calvin Peters stabbed the student in the neck as he prayed. Officers demand he drop the knife but say he charged at them and was shot. He died at the hospital later. Listen. [shouting] reporter that wounded student is in stable condition. We are told he just arrived in our country a few weeks ago. Remember the Crown Heights riots in brooklyn in 1991 those riots claimed the life of another visiting student. Those three days of violent protests were sparked after a child was accidentally run off and killed during a rabbis motorcade. The protests were led by al sharpton. Bill we are minutes away from the start of the house hearing with former obamacare adviser Jonathon Gruber. Martha a noreaster bringing several inches of rain, snow and plenty of wind. A full forecast and live report on that big clean blob next. Bill awaiting the hearing on the hill. Jonathan gruber has been seated at the table. Hes a longtime obamacare adviser. Hes expected to face questions about the blunt comments and what he meant when he called the American Voters stupid. Expect to see those tapes played and his comments and the question will go to him to explain it. All that coming up live from the hill. Martha we are joined by a panel this morning, the former Democratic Party chief of staff to joe biden. Welcome, gentlemen. Let me start with you, robert. What do you expect today . It will and hard day for gruber. He and the redskins owner may be the two most unpopular people in washington. He has already apologized for this and the question today is it going to be an effort to pound on this one particular individual or are the republicans going use this as an opportunity to write legislation, to make changes to the Affordable Care act that they want and the American People want and send them to the president in a way that he would be forced in a position to sign them. Martha rich, what do you expect . Hes a friendless man. The republicans will be bang on him real hard. Democrats will be denying everything he said and denying they ever heard of the guy. Robert is right apologized for the stupidity of the American People comments. But other things will be more difficult for him to return away from because they are true. Who can deknife that the laugh is complex. Its a fact it didnt address costs. Martha i wonder how much time will be spent on the larger under pinning themes of what he said which was basically that the American People needed this plan and they didnt get that they needed this plan so you had to figure out a way to make them sign on to it without understanding what was in it. Washington is always built around the art of the possible. Legislators whether democrat or rurp can probably want to be careful about letting lifting up the hood and showing the American People the sausage making that is the legislative process here in washington. There are some outcomes of the law that are popular and effective. There are 15 Million People who have coverage that didnt have coverage. People are signing up in record numbers. Martha well go to darrell issa. Here is the chairman of the Oversight Committee darrell is a. Americans have a right to know the money washington takes from them is well spent. And americans deserve an efficient, effective government that works for them. 15minute our duty on the oversight and government reform commit eve toys protect those rights. Our solemn responsibility is to hold government accountable to taxpayers because taxpayers have a right to know what they get from their government. Its our job to work tirelessly with citizen watch dogs to deliver the facts to the American People and bring genuine reform to the federal bureaucracy. This is and has been our mission for four yieferls been honored to serve. Miss tavenner before i have begin with my Opening Statement, i want to make you aware in homes that your people mr. Deliver documents pursuant to the subpoena that was due 8 days ago related to the documents behind your coming before this committee and giving false and misleading in the testimony related to the socalled 7. 3 million enrollment figure. We zd for and received only half of the documents and the documents that were exclude were the ones that created the talking points and the people who caused you to use inorparticulate language that careful live after he loved you to say 7. 3 million without disclosing that includes at least 400,000 dental plans. That was seen pad. It was clearly understood. Last night we received a huge data dump and it was not in there. It makes it difficult for us to go forward with some aspects of todays hearing as you can imagine, its clear that this hearing in no small part was not because of what obamacare is about, not about the healthcare, its about honesty and transparency to the American People. Todays hearing is likely the last full Committee Hearing of this congress. This committee has a primary obligation and has lived up to that obligation to look at government to make government more transparent and accountable. And at times members on both sides have helped to try to create that transparency. But no Government Program needs increased transparency and accountability and honestly more than the Affordable Care act known as obamacare. It has proven time and time again to in fact have made false claims. Every member on both sides of the d air, s can agree the Affordable Care act or obamacare is a large expensive program reef lying on a complex network of government pravments that significantly impact the lives of all americans. Yet the history of design, passage and implementation of the laugh is fraught with halftruths and deception. Here are some of the claims the administration. If you like your doctor you will be able to keep your doctor. Period. Nothing in obamacare forces people out of their health plans. No change is required unless Insurance Companies change existing plans. Healthcare inflation has gone down of year since the law, the Affordable Care act has been passed. And it it now has the lowest increases in healthcare costs in 50 years. To that we add, we have got close to 7 million americans who have access to healthcare for the first type because of medicaid expansion. If you like your plan you can keep your plan. When trying to pass Affordable Care obamacare the administration repeatly claimed the laws individual mandate was not a tax. However, months after passage in a brief defending the mandates constitution at, the Justice Department argued just opposite that it was a tax. One of our three witnesses this morning offered a simple answer to this change in position. We wrote it in a tortured way to make sure the cbo did not score the taxes. Its written to do that. In terms of subsidies get a law that says Healthy People will pay in and sick people get money, it would not have passed. Just like people transparent lack of transparency is a huge political advantage. Call it the stupidity of the American Voter or whatever. But that was critical to get the thing passed. Its the second best argument. I wish mark was right and we could make it transparent. I wish it was right and we made it all transparent. Professor Jonathan Gruber is considered by many as the architect of obamacare. As a former Obama Administration official put it, professor gruber was the man on obamacare, the guru of healthcare, the official we went on to say i remember that when i was at the white house he was certainly viewed as an important figure in helping to put obamacare together. No one can look at the amount of money he has he was compensated for for his work in obamacare totaling millions of dollars and think our witness was anything but a critical player in the Affordable Care act. Current administration officials, however, have attempted to distance them receives from professor gruber. Ever since he stated and started telling the truth about the tactics used to pass this law. In fact the center for medicare and Medicaid Services urged the committee not to seat him with the administrator next to him. Dr. Gruber, we think you are right to be there, in fact we believe that this is a perfect pairing, a pairing of individual who are in fact responsible for what we know and dont know before, during and after the passage and implementation of the Affordable Care act. September 18, 2014. The admin traitor miss tavenner came before us at the administrator came before us and testified there were 7. 3 Million People and i quote this carefully, health ibs marketplace Coverage Health Insurance Marketplace coverage. That tortured language had not previously been used and it followed a series of document requests in which we discovered that in fact 7. 3 million would have to include a fairly large 400,000 individual in more or less 50 dental plans. Obviously when you say you met a goal and the difference between making a goal and not making a goal are plans nobody would consider a key element of the Affordable Care act. Hhs initially failed to provide any documents to explain how the numbers were had been interpreted. October 1, 2014 the committee requested the enrollment data under lying the 7. 4 enrollment until. We were met with delays and runarounds that bordered on obstruction. Hhs finally provided the enrollment data on spread streets in 6point font. When electronic copies were demand. The oversight investigation discovered all of the hundreds of straight ahead sheets were Password Protected and locked. After further negotiation we finally were able to receive the passwords and recognized that all along there had been an inherent deception. This was quickly discovered and would have been discovered by anybody simply by putting the spreadsheets in ascending order of dollars. November 21, 2014, only after it was publicly noted that the committee discovered the administration was willing to acknowledge 393,000 dental plants in the figures released in september. Hhs included department pal plans in its enrollment dental plans in its enrollment in november and is now been forced to revise down to not greater than 6. 7 million enrollees. The administration claims it made a mistake. However, there is great scepticism about that, and particularly the term mistake when it appears as though instead hhs and cms were too clever in an attempt to inflate the numbers and say they met a goal. It is a small technical error in many ways whether you had 7. 3 million or 6. 7 million. If in fact its simply a matter of whether you made a goal or didnt make a goal. But when you doctor the books and add additional numbers and then use careful language so you didnt lie, but you did deceive, that is exactly what we are concerned about here at this committee. The American People have a right to know the honest numbers. Management has an obligation to know it if they are in fact going to be accountable to the taxpayers for doing their job and in fact the American People expect no less. Professor gruber is often said in washington to be the definition of gaffe. Thats when somebody accidentally tells the truth. You have made a series of troubling statements that were not only an insult to the American People but revealed a pattern of intentional misleading in the the public about the true impact and nature of obamacare which is in many ways you helped craft. Today well have an opportunity to ask you to apologize for your low opinion of the American People and hopefully apologize for the false information on which the analysis of what the Affordable Care act would do was built lead together disappointments we see here today. With that i would recognize the Ranking Member for an Opening Statement is not here. All members will have 7 days to submit Opening Statements for the record. We now go to our panel of witnesses. Marilyn tavenner is the administrator for the health and hum were vices and Jonathan Gruber is the pro d Human Services. And Jonathan Gruber is a press fessor at the Massachusetts Institute of technology. Would you please stand and raise your right hands to take the oath. Do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Let the record reflect the witnesses answered in the affirmative. Please be seated. At this time in the absence of the ranging member, may i ask that we have a minority mr. Harry goldman for whom we thank your indulgence and we would ask for convenience sake that mr. Goldman be added to the panel and be sworn in and testify at the same time. I appreciate your suggestion. Hes not a government witness and not an expert in any of the facts being discovered today so well leave him on the second panel but i thank you for your suggestion. Ms. Tavenner, you are recognize. For five minutes for your Opening Statement. I appreciate the opportunity to appear here today and answer your questions about cms continuing work to provide affordable high quality thoct healthcare to the americans we serve. In my previous appearance before your committee i reported a number of americans that were even rolled in marketplace coverage and they had premiums that included medical and dental connell. Simply put this was this waa mistake. Moving forward only individual with medical coverage will be included in our enrollment numbers. We are now providing weekly snapshots of the 2015 marketplace data including the number of consumers who submitted an application, contacted the call center or visited the website. We have also created a new data office and named our first chief data officer. This new office will help cms strengthen it processes and will help cms better harness data and drop costs. While this is a regreetable mistake it should not obscure the fact that its working. The number of uninsured adult americans is down 26 per. 1 any additional individual have enrolled in medicaid or chips. For the first year of the new program this is a tremendous accomplishment. 2015 open eb enrollment is off a solid start. Many consumer are able to shop and find even more affordable openings in the second year of the program d affordable options. More than 90 of consumers will be able to choose from at least three or more issuers and 60 of the marketplace enrollees are able to renew coverage for less than 1,100 a month after tax credit. Those already koofe covered shod come back to the marketplace to find an option that is more affordable or better suits their need. We improved the consumer experience, as well. Its hear, faster and more intuitive for consumers. We reduced the number of screens from 76 down to 16 with fewer clicks to navigate through the questions for most consumers. Consumer interest is strong. Since open enrollment began there have been 765,000 plan selections. 48 are new consumers. Martha Marilyn Tavenner is clarifying an issue brought up by darrell issa. 400,000 people were currented as signing up for obamacare because they had dental plans. Lots more to come. Jonathan gruber is about to part speaking moments away. Bill we has an Opening Statement. We need to sneak in a quick commercial. Lets do that right now. When we come back we anticipate questions not just of ms. Tavenner but the main witness of this hearing, Jonathan Gruber. Back in a moment after this. Hospital acquired infections decreases. Just look at those two. Happy. In love. And saving so much money on their Car Insurance by switching to geico. Well, just look at this setting. Do you have the ring . Oh, helzberg diamonds. Another beautiful setting. Im not crying. Ive just got a bit of sand in my eyes, thats all. Geico. Fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on Car Insurance. Bill while we were in commercial. Elijah cummings rather complimentary of his colleague darrell issa. This is the last Committee Meeting before they break for christmas. We have not yet heard Jonathan Grubers Opening Statement. But well hear what elijah kusm cans position on this obamacare issue is today. In 2010 the democrats in Congress Passed the Affordable Care act to give millions of People Health insurance. We banned Insurance Companies from discriminating against people with preexisting conditions. We established significant new measures to hold down healthcare costs and provided extra assistance to those who needed it. Today based on the evidence before us, the aca is work for millions of people who are now covered. According to the new england journal of medicine, the rate of uninsured has dropped by over 4 Percentage Points since last year. Thats a 26 reduction in the ranks of the uninsured in one year. The evidence shows the aca is bend can the cost curve. The growth of National Healthcare spending decreased to 3. 6 last year. That is the lowest rate on record since the 1960s. Healthcare delivery methods saved 12 million by reducing the number of hospitalacquired conditions. Despite these clear benefits republicans have spent the last four years doing everything in their power to repeal the Affordable Care act, dilute it, under might and oppose it. This has become one of their chief political goals. They have taken 53 votes to repeal or weaken the law. They shutdown the government for 16 days in a failed attempt to delay their implementation. Well hear our 29th hearing today on the Affordable Care act. Thats a stunning number. More than two dozen hearings but not one has helped implement the aca more effectively or efficiently. It pains me to imagine the good we have could accomplished had we devoted that same amount of time and resources to more constructive efforts. So i mourn what could have been. Unfortunately this hearing is no different. Different. As far as i can tell, we are here today to beat up on Jonathan Gruber. Its absolutely stupid comments he made over the past few years and then grill and grill administrator tavenner about what appears to be an inadvertent mistakes in reporting aca enrollment numbers. This may be good political theater but it will not help a single american get Health Insurance. It will not help a Single Person get well. It will not help a Single Person get the care that they need. Im extremely frustrated with dr. Grubers statements. They were irresponsible. Incredibly disrespectful, and did not reflect reality. And they were indeed insulting. I was in congress when this law was debated and dr. Gruber does not speak for me, or the chairman of the other committees who worked tirelessly on this bill. We debated this legislation for nearly a year before it was finally passed and signed by the president. We held 7 held 79 hearings in the house of representatives alone. Never once did i believe nor did anyone suggest we were somehow hiding our goals from the American People. But worst of all, dr. Dwriewbers statement dr. Grubers statement give republicans a reason to tear count aca for millions of americans. They allege some democratic conspiracy. But that, too be is completely wrong. Let me highlight some additional praise dr. Gruber received for his work. He received thanks for his contributions for healthcare legislation and i quote. Jonathan gruber at m. I. T. Devoted hours and hours to the socioeconomic model. That statement was not from president obama but from the republican nominee for president in 2012, mitt romney. He thanked dr. Grauber personally at the signing ceremony. Romney in massachusetts in 2006. A day earlier mitt romney wrote and oped in the wall street journal entitled healthcare for every one, what he found a way. This is what he wrote and i quote. Jonathan gruber of m. Ist t. Built an economic metric model of the population with input from insurers, may inhouse team crunched the numbers. End of quote. Governor romney said this, too. Quote because Health Insurance will now be affordable and subjects died, we insist that everyone person receive Health Insurance from one of our private understand company so all massachusetts citizens will have Health Insurance. Its a goal democrats and republicans share and it has been achieved by a bipartisan evident through market reforms. This is what the aca was modeled on and was supposed to be. But governor romney was wrong with one thing. That goal was not shared by republican in washington. For the last four years House Republicans have been trying to repeal the aca but they never he can explained what they would replace it with. In a few weeks republicans will control both houses of congress and they will be out of excuses governing responsibly does not mean eliminating essential Health Care Protections for our constituents, all of our constituents with no alternative. It means promoting the health and Economic Security of millions of americans who desperately need help. With that, mr. Chairman, i want to thank you for your courtesy, thank you for your service to this committee and i yield back. I thank the gentleman. I would remind all members that committees jurisdiction is, does not include any changes to the Affordable Care act other than those involving transparency and reporting and the committees jurisdiction in its 29 hearings have been related not to whether we like the Affordable Care act or not, but in fact whether or not were getting transparency, proper reporting required for which this committee is known. With that i would have to ask mr. Goldman to please rise to also take the oath. Raise your right hand please. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony youre about to give will be the truth the whole truth, nothing but the truth . Please be seated. Report the record reflect our third witness answered in the affirmative. Dr. Gruber, is now your turn. Chairman issa, Ranking Members of cummings, Ranking Members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify voluntarily today i will testify statements i made to the Affordable Care act and reaction to interpretation of those statements. Im a professor of economics at mit im not a politician nor political advisor. Over the past decade i have used an economic micro simulation model to help a number of states and the federal government assess the impact of Health Care Reform on health care sieves, government budgets and overall economies. I have had the privilege of working for both democrat and republican administrations on Health Care Reform efforts. I worked extensively with governor romneys administration and Massachusetts Legislature to model the impact of governor romneys Landmark Health reform legislation. I later served as technical consultant to the u. S. Department of health and Human Services and provided similar support to both the administration and to congress through economic microsimulation modeling of the Affordable Care act. I did not draft governor romneys health plan and i was not architect of president obamas Health Care Plan. After the passage of the aca i made a series of speeches endeavoring to explain the laws implications for u. S. Health care system from the perspective of a trained economist. Over the past few weeks a number of videos emerged from these appearances. Excerpts of these videos im shown making a series of glib, thoughtless, and sometimes downright insulting comments. I apologize for the these videos earlier but ongoing attention paid to the videos made me realize a fuller account something necessary. Id like to begin by apologizing sincerely for the offending comments that i made. In some case made uninformed and glib process about the political process behind Health Care Reform. Im noxpert on politics and my tone implied i was which is wrong. In other cases i made mean and insulting comments uncalled for in any context. I sincerely apologize for conjecturing with the tone of expertise and for doing so in such a disparaging fashion. It is never appropriate to make ones self seem more important or smarter by demeaning others. I knew better, i know better, and im embarrassed and im sorry. In addition to apologizing for my unacceptable remarks, i would like to clarify some misconceptions about the content and context of my comments. Let me be very clear. I do not think that the Affordable Care act was passed in a nontransparent fashion. The issues i raised in my comments such as redistribution of risk through Insurance Market reform and structure of the cadillac tax were roundly debated before the law was passed. Reasonable people can disagree about the merits of these policies but it is completely clear that these issues were debated thoroughly during the drafting and passage of the aca. I would also like to clarify misperceptions about my january 2012 remarks concerning availability of tax credit in states that did not set up their own Health Insurance exchanges. The portion of these remarks that has received so many attention lately omits a critical component of the context which i was speaking. The point i believe i was making was about the possibility that the federal government, for whatever reason, might not create a federal exchange. If that were to occur and only in that context, then the only way that states could guaranty that their citizens could receive tax credits would be to set up their own exchange. I have a long standing and welldocumented belief that Health Reform legislation in general and aca in particular must include mechanisms for residents in all states to obtain tax credits. Indeed my microsimulation model for the aca expressly modeled for the citizens of all states to be eligible for tax credits whether served directly by state exchange oar by federal exchange. Im not an elected official, nor am i a political advisor. Im an economist who ran a complex microsimulation model to help republican and democratic politicians and their advisors understand the impact that their policies would have on health care systems. The recent response to my comments at academic conferences exceeds my relevance in Health Care Reform. I behaved badly, i will have to live with that but my own inexcusable arrogance is not a flaw in the Affordable Care act. The aca is a milestone accomplishment for our nation already provided millions of americans with Health Insurance. Our countrys embarking on an exciting second open Enrollment Period that will provide new opportunities for these individuals and millions more to choose the Insurance Plan that work best for them. While i will continue to reflect on the cost of my own incentive i hope our country can move past distraction of my misguided comments and look for the opportunities this law provides. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Bold man. Goldman. Thank you, members. Especially chairman issa and Ranking Member cummings. Bill well try to time the breaks as best we can. Were awaiting on i dont know than grubers Opening Statement, got it, some 40, 38 minutes in. He said that he apologized. He said he is sorry. He also said he did not draft governor romneys Health Care Plan and says he is not the architect of president obamas Health Care Plan. That all to the side, we now await questions and all likelihood some of the videos surfaced have his words on camera criticizing the American Voter, and talking about the inside workings for how this law was put together, a, and how it was passed, b. We await on that. Martha well be right back after this. Individuals and families across the country. Martha all right. We are back. We are in the middle of the House Oversight hearing Committee Hearing which Jonathan Gruber is about to answer questions. The current witness on the lefthand side of your screen, mr. Gold mann is, is testifying to attributes in obamacare as seen in his own life. He is waiter and independent contractor. It allowed him to save money on his health care and he is very pleased with the plan. That is initially for his presence. Darrell issa did not want to swear him in the hearing and made part of this discussion as well. That is essentially what he said. That silver plan you chose. No, im not. Okay. Im glad you found parttime work even though in the past you found fulltime work. Miss tavenner, you testified before the committee and you used the terminology, enrolled in the health care Insurance Market coverage. Is that the appropriate, normal way youve always referred to enrollment numbers . I dont know that i havent appropriate i called it the marketplace. I called it Health Insurance coverage. That language allowed you to claim 7. 3 million. Had you said enrolled in Health Care Plans you would have to reduce that at least by 400,000, isnt that true . I think had i known that we had double counting the dental i would have corrected that for the september hearing, as i said before. That was a mistake. No im asking questions about the mistake. You gave what would be considered by anyone to be false and misleading testimony because you were given data that included 400,000 dental plans. Cms previously released separate numbers about, far greater for numbers for dental at the time and health care. As those numbers went down, they got combined and language got changed to enrolled in the Health Insurance marketplace coverage. So the question is, did you have anything to do with the use of that term and were you aware, and it is a twopart question, each is a yes or no, were you aware that dental was included in your testimony . I was not aware that dental was included in my testimony. And were you in any way explained why the use of enrolled in the Health Insurance marketplace coverage was the term you read in your statement . No. Thank you. Mr. Gruber, ive been accused that im going to berate you or something and i hope thaw wont feel that way when i get done but the night before last i was at the Kennedy Center honors where they honored tom hanks, famously, forrest gump. The ultimate in successful stupid man. Are you stupid . I dont think so, no. Does mit employ stupid people . Not to my knowledge. Okay. So youre a smart man who said some, as the Ranking Member, said some really stupid things and you said the same, is that correct . I, comments i made were really inexcusable. And i will leave aside the political observations but, you did say in your, in the video we played and everyone else has seen i think parts of it, you did say that in fact if people knew the whole truth they with wouldnt have voted for this. That in fact the direction you were going, the reality, and specifically, i want to talk as mr. Fold mann is a posterchild for this. He has a silver plan that was relatively inexpensive. If it was subsidized it would be even cheaper. The people paying more than they previously did, health care wend up in price, for mr. Gold mann to get reduction, someone got increase but an increase to offset his decrease. That is what you were talking about. Isnt it true that in fact between the taxes and increases for some, thats part of the plan to reduce for people like mr. Gold mann . The, first of all i made a critical mistake in trying to conjecture with a tone of expertise. But youre an expert on the analysis of the numbers and where the costshifting goes in your microeconomic analysis. Im asking you as dr. Gruber, a smart man at a great institution, collected over, actually, over 4 million in various fees and so on, your analysis, isnt it true that in order for mr. Goldman to get his reduction, and he is very happy about it, in fact it was Cost Shifting including those socalled cadillac plans, isnt that true . Affordable care act set up insurance exchanges which pooled risks for healthy and less healthy. On average, when you account for tax credits individuals received people are repaying less. Im a taxpayer, mr. Gruber. People like me are not paying less. People are paying more. Taxes is a cost that is pay. Total costs did not go down, Cost Shifting occurred in your model, isnt that true . Amount that individuals have to pay for Health Insurance fell on average in my model. But it didnt fall in reality. Let me ask one question, and this may be the tougher question for you. You said in these video comments that essentially you had to deceive in order to get this passed. Your models, the 4 million plus dollars that you and mit received including hundreds of thousands of dollars personally to develop and provide those models, if deception was part of the process by your own statements, why should we believe your analysis . Why should we not demand to go into the microeconomic analysis and find out whether in fact the 4 million in services you delivered were accurate, or whether the books were cooked . First of all the amount of money to which you referred has been greatly overstated. It refers to grants received by Research Institutions and others which i received a small fraction. Second of all, no one ever questioned the quality or integrity of the modeling. Mr. Gruber, im questioning it in light of your statements and thats why im asking. Shouldnt we question or at least have independent analysis of numbers you delivered before, actually, to massachusetts for that matter too, but to the federal government based on your statements that in fact if people knew the truth they wouldnt, and that there was a deception in our own thing . All i want, i want to go to the Ranking Member, but is there any reason you would not approve the idea that there should be independent validation of the numbers you used in light of the statements that weve seen you made . I think that the quality of my numbers should not be reflected by comments i made whereas conjecturing outside my area of expertise. At the same time my modeling has always been very transparent. I posted information about my model and im happy to ask questions about the model, answer questions about the model and how it works. Thank you. I hope this committee in the next congress will insist there be an independent analysis of whether in fact that model would stand the scrutiny of an audit. With that i recognize the Ranking Member. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Dr. Gruber, as i mentioned in my Opening Statement i was very frustrated when with your statements. And i got to tell you, they were insulting. They were especially harmful because they gave the opponents of the aca a pr gift. Man, you did a great job. You wrapped it up with a bow. This has nothing to do with the substance of this issue. It is just, something critics will link to the aca in future debates. I have to say i listened very careful to your testimony because i wanted to hear exactly what you were going to say. A lot of types witnesses who come before the committee spin and avoid apologizing. So you deserve some credit at least for taking this head on and taking responsibility for your actions. I know you believe in the ac. And you also worked with governor romney on his health care bill, is that right . Yes. So my question is this. Sitting here today what do you say to those people who are trying to eliminate the aca and who are quoting your statements as the reason to repeal health care for millions of americans and many of might have constituents and people watching us right now on cspan . What do you say to them . I would say that made a series of inexcusable and offensive comments where i conjectured with a tone of expertise to try to make myself seem smarter by demeaning others and i apologize for that. But my flaws as private citizen, not a politician, not a political advisor, my flaws as a private citizen should not reflect on process by which the aca was passed or the success of that law itself. Now administrator tavenner, youve been before our committee before and i have complimented you on your efforts and i do still believe that you are a great Public Servant. On november 20th, hhs reported that it had overstated the numbers of enrollees by about 380,000. The chairman talked about that in his Opening Statement and he just asked you about it. This was because hhs included people with dental coverage too. Essentially double counted them. How could you, how could that happen . I mean you knew everybody, they know everybody has a microscope on the program. So im just curious. So it is a great question. It was an inexcusable mistake and i think in looking at payments made instead of unique individuals, we counted individual who had both medical and dental. I believe we have put processes in place to prevent that from happening again but it should not happened the first time. But you understand the mistake has the same effect as dr. Grubers statement, same thing. It gives aca opponents a pr gift that they can use on cable shows and elsewhere to attack the a. It is an unforced political error. So now, i have to ask you for the record, because everybody is going to ask you the same thing. Youre under oath and just tell me, did you intend to deceive this committee or the American People when you provided those enrollment numbers . Was that your intention . I did not. And do you have any reason to believe that anyone on your staff tried to deceive the American People or was this error inadvertent . I do not believe anyone tried to deceive the American People and i believe the error was inadvertent. 6. 7 million is a very large number. We are pleased with that number. This was an inadvertent mistake for which i apologize. As a result of the, now mr. Goldman, i want to thank you for being here today. Youll r im glad youre working and pursuing your screams dreams. As a result of the aca it is a fact that Insurance Companies can no longer discriminate against people like you or charge exorbitant rates because of your preexisting conditions. How do you peel about that . I think it is important for people to know what that means. We hear a lot of times the negative stuff, particularly in this committee but it is good to have somebody who has benefited from this. Can you tell us how that makes you feel . Right. I, this isnt something i had thought about before, all this, before i really left an employer that gave me benefits. Because, it wasnt something i, i thought was an issue. I took that for granted. I think a lot of people take that for granted. The Health Care Coverage i had growing up and young adult in my 20s was great. When i decided to pursue something different, something of my own making, something very typically american, and i no longer had coverage i, it came as a shock. So to suddenly have that inability to have my own little preexisting conditions that many people have, not be covered was, was a very strange and unusual feeling to me and it was not a good one. So, so to be able to enroll through the aca and to still pay my part, but, to know im not being discriminated against based on something that millions of americans have, it doesnt matter what they are particularly, it was a relief. And i didnt realize how much of a relief it would be until i actually got enrolled with a Good Health Care provider as opposed to someone, or a provided that provided inadequate benefits. Just a last question. What was wrong with your insurance before you got this insurance here . You had previous insurance, is that right . Yes. My preceding insurance, yes. Yes. Well, the premiums were almost twice as high, which in of itself, you know, supply demand issue. I assume. Im not an economist unfortunately although i can make guesses but i will say that the coverage i had, despite, regardless how much i was paying on monthly premium was insultingly inadequate. Not just because of what it wouldnt cover but how difficult it was to process claims and how difficult it was to get any sort of response from the company itself. So, yes, prescriptions and Office Visits related to my preexisting conditions were uncovered and that required a lot of outofpocket benefits. Also the even the stuff that was covered was difficult to get reimbursed tore. , thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you with the Ranking Members indulgence. Miss tavenner, i failed to ask one thing. Can your staff provide any information related to the preparation of the talking points in the subpoena . That was part of what was asked for and not delivered . We will supply some information to you late yesterday evening. I will go back to work with the staff to see what else we can get you to try to work with you. Well the discovery asked for information related to the false statement that was made by you, certainly inadvertently, you called it a mistake. We asked for the creation of it, so we can see who created it, who put the numbers together. It took a staffer 20 minutes to find the error once we got passwords to unlock this it wasnt hard to find. The question is, i will be brief, can you ask your people to the extent it has already been pulled, to the extent we issued a subpoena, it already has been pulled, they knew what we wanted could we have it . We have people on both sides of the dais of those facts and last hearing of year, i appreciate you want to get it to us in the future. It is crippling to main extent which the main subject of the hearing how did we get misled and who was involved in it, in the process of creating those talking points, we dont have it. So the question is, can you instruct your people to the extent that there has been any pulling of that documents to get it over to us so people on the dais can ask those questions . I know mr. Gowdy likes working off of facts, not fiction. Yes, sir, well work with him. Thank you. Mr. Chairman. Yes, mr. Cummings. 30 seconds. One thing i failed to, when i was complimenting you earlier youre not taking any of that back . No, no. I wanted to take a moment, mr. Chairman, express my deep appreciation and respect for your staff and for my staff. I know a lot of people will be moving on to new jobs, but these are folks that work night and day, trying to present the very best that they can to this committee and to the American People. I take a moment to thank them for all that they have done. This is a key, time in american history. And i appreciate it. Thank you. Well, thank you and, because of your wise comments im going to pile on just in one sense, mr. Cummings. We do have the best staffs on the hill. They do countless, thousands of hours of deposition and transcribed interviews. They pour over more documents than any other committee of the congress and theyre able to qualitatively search for and find in ig reports, in freedom of Information Reports and obviously in working with whistleblowers, things that no other committee can find and i think that thats a genuine statement for both side. There is no better set of Committee Staff than what we are honored to have. I thank you for bringing that up. We now go to the gentleman from ohio, mr. Turner. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Mr. Gruber, youve said that your statements were inexcusable and insulting. I certainly understand when someone gets caught saying something as inflammatory as what you have said how you might want to recant it. However, some of the things that you said were substantivebased and although they may be inexcusable and insulting they were said, in the end they may be true. And i want to walk you through some of the statements that you made that were substantive in nature rather than the statements that you made about the American Voter. Now you said that you did complex microsimulation modeling. It sound like relatively basic model to me. You take from one an give to another. Bay i can equation of Wealth Redistribution and that is called a tax. And you have made many statements about the obamacare plan as being a tax. I want to go through those. Now i want to remind you, this is not the casual conversation youve had in the conferences where you have insulted the American Voter. This is actually a hearing where you took an oath. You said on march 16th, 2011 the only way we could take it on by first mislabeling it, calling it a tax on Insurance Plans rather than a tax on people. We all know it is really a tax on people who hold those Insurance Plans. A tax. January 18th, you said if youre a state and said if you dont set up an exchange, that means your citizens dont get tax credits but your citizens will pay taxes to support the bill. A tax. October 30th, 2012, we just taxed the Insurance Companies. They pass it on in higher prices. Offset tax breaks we get. Very clear, you know, and thats when you went on insulted the American Voter to the fact they couldnt understand that basic equation. On october 17th, you said this fill was written in tortured way to make sure the cbo did not score the mandate as taxes. If cbo scores the mandate as taxes bill dice. I know you believe your statements were insensitive around insulting but. Youre not recanting your statements with respect to the tax statements with respect to obama care, are you . I made this is into the conjecture, gruber. I believe, someone may have been thinking perhaps they were. Perhaps it was, this is your straight up statements. This is not conjecture. Is it your purpose today to recant obamacare as a tax . It is my purpose today to come forward and elaborate and straighten out interpretation of a series of comments that made and to apologize. Excellent. Lets do that then. Lets clarify it. Mr. Gruber, you made these statements did you not . Yes, i dont recall exactly you dont recall. One of them we actually saw on video. Do you recall that one . Yes. Well, these statements, well enter them for the record, i cant imagine how you dont recall your own statements because the American Voter has seen them over and over again as you called them stupid. Do you deny makes these statements even though you dont recall them . Do you recall denying calling obamacare a tax . If youre reading my actually quotes. Im reading your actual quotes. I dont deny it. Youre not here to recant it or denye it . Im here to explain number of those comments were made in tone of expertise that i dont have when i was talking about mr. Gruber, do you know what a tax is . Bill we need to take another quick commercial break. Were back in moment. So you would not deny today in these sames that you madebu that. Eliminate odors youve gone noseblind to for up to 30 days with the febreze car vent clip. Female passenger wow. Smells good in here. Vo so you and your passengers can breathe happy. Because i make the best chicken noodle soup. Because i make the best chicken noodle soup. Because i make the best chicken noodle soup. For every way you make chicken noodle soup, make it delicious with swanson®. Bill our apologies. Had to pay some bills here. Clearly back in the hearing. What you missed during the commercial break, michael turner, republican from ohio, dayton, ohio, was asking gruber under oath an reminded him repeatedly under oath whether or not they talked about scoring the mandate as a tax. Gruber responded by saying he does not recall that conversation. Back inside of the hearing, first to martha, across the room. Martha former new york city mayor Rudy Giuliani has been watching all of this testimony this morning and he is pretty fired up about it. What is your response to far to what were seeing here this morning . I wish i was back in the courtroom as a crossexam inner, to crossexamine him. Martha what would you ask . First owe is lying when he made remarks or now. We come away with the conclusion dr. Gruber is a liar then or now. To say the bill was transparent is another insult to the American People. Remember, members of Congress Said they never lead it. Read it. How could it be transparent if nobody ever read it . Testimony he gave under oath he cant recall. Only testimony he can recall is the part on tape. It is obvious that they created a deceptive model, that made it look like you were going to save money and, people like me and thousands of others were saying, you cant cover 10,000, 20,000 more people and save money. That is idiotic. He actually believes that all of us were stupid enough to believe that. Martha gruber himself, in his prior video statements said, you know, the cadillac tax is designed so that people who have better plans are going to have to pay more to cover the people who dont have a plan. Right. Martha we heard from mr. Goldman, the waiter and independent contractor, who talked about how wonderful obamacare has been for him. Then mr. Gruber was asked, isnt the reason that mr. Goldman is now covered we had to tax people more money to cover him . And we got nothing. It was, it is a transfer of wealth. So at the core of marxism principles, redistributing wealth. At least you have to be honest about that. So when you vote on it the American People know what theyre voting on. Maybe that is something the American People want to do. Maybe American People want to pay more for people that need coverage and cant get it. That is a good thing. We should know it beforehand. Martha it does at its heart get to the basis of president obamas philosophy which is that you need to redistribute income as he told joe the plumber many years ago on the campaign trail. This is the core of the president s belief. Right. Martha is it not . Isnt that at the basis what is so important about the discussion being had in this room . Martha, doesnt it go further than that . This is professor at one of the great institutions of america. They can all say this and gel annoyed, this is not unusual for a professor to use his intellectual ability to deceive the American People to serve his ideology. Going on way we educate our American Children at some leftwing universities. This is a professor who admitted he lied. Appears if some lies are under oath. He just cant recall. He is teaching our young people, how many more are like that, create a deceptive model to help a liberal or Leftwing Democrat get something accomplished . Martha evidenced by videos he saw in the room, says as part of his excuse i was speaking to technical and academic audiences. Im struck by the fact, mr. Mayor, in those rooms there was barely a at this timer, when he was saying you have to rely on stupidity of American People. They will not understand how this works. Essentially they end up paying for the program one way or the other. Lets try something else. He said his institution was paid, i may have the numbers wrong. Four million. He was paid a couple of hundred thousand to produce what he says is deceptive model. You know what that is defined under 18 United States code . We you call that fraud. We call that fraud. If i produce a deceptive model and you pay me for it you have have committed a crime for fraud. Is anybody going to suggest that, had this been an evangelical institution and republican involved, all those democrats there would be yelling for Fraud Investigation of what would happen with the institution and with him. He was paid to deliberately produce a model that had a major impact on the American People. At least, prima facia it fits the definition of fraud. Martha he is saying, im on an economist. Im not a political operative. I was not a political aide in this process. Yet we know he was at the white house 19 times. One of those meetings was with the white house. Seems part of the exercise watching here, Jonathan Gruber trying to distance himself from this process. Im an idiot who said stupid things but that is not the case based on evidence. Economists have to tell the truth. Economists cant defraud. Economists cant get paid to defraud. And their institutions cant be get paid to support defrauding. Is this were American Financial institution chasing it for fines. If it was American Energy institution, Obama Administration would be all over them for fraud. Pharmaceutical industry, wall street, you go pick it. If it were a forprofit company the, white house and the Obama Administration would be all over them immediately, subpoenas and everything else. Did you know about the fraud . How much money did you get paid for the fraud . How deliberate was it . How many more people creating fraudulent model which you admitted on tape and under oath was false . Martha using american taxpayers dollars. To cheat us. Using american taxpayer dollars to cheat is out of the information were entitled to. Martha thank you so much, Rudy Giuliani. Good to see you as always. Bill martha, well go back into the hearing at a moment. Were trying to dance around commercial breaks here at home. Be patient with us at your office or on your mobile device. What gruber said in his Opening Statement, i have a long standing welldocumented belief any Health Care Law must include mechanisms for residents in all states to obtain tax credits. That appears to be very issue before the Supreme Court that will be decided in late spring or early summer. Also were waiting on senator Dianne Feinstein. She will be at the microphone in a moment to talk about the interrogation report put out by senate democrats. Reaction on that and more as the hearing continues from the hill. Bill as promised back inside the hearing room waiting for answers from Jonathan Gruber and Marilyn Tavenner. Who made a request not to sit next to gruber. That request was denied. People supposedly came to work on verifying information and never worked. People were paid not to work. And people paid to help design the system and profited. To me that is not a very good story. Yield back. Thank the gentleman. Mr. Gruber, when you signed your truth in testimony form, you used an exhibit b and then you didnt use our form we provided. As a result, we dont have that revenue which is the state revenue, essentially, revenue. We provided grants. So would you agree to supplement your exhibit b so that we would have truth in testimony your state revenue which you also would have received because ultimately is Affordable Care act related. Im sure my counsel will be happy to take up with you. Actually i was asking would you agree to provide it . Im sure that is something you can discuss with my counsel. So youre not agreeing to provide it . Im not agreeing or disagreeing. Im saying that something if you confer with your counsel please. Is a requirement before you testify and, as we reviewed your exhibit b, because you didnt use our form and go down it, we dont have all of your income. And since that has become a factor here, would you please, well take a moment, well take a short break. Provide with your counsel to see whether you can affirmatively answer that. My counsel informed that my disclosure is complying with the House Committee rules. If you have any questions he will be anticipatehappy to answer them. Mr. Chairman, i request that the witness provide the committee with the amount of money received from the federal government and any other health care he received since the beginning i apologize. This is technical rule of the committee, folks. The gentleman it is a simple request, that he provide us that. And once again i, the committee is welcome to work with my counsel on that. Mr. Chairman . Mr. Jordan. Why doesnt he just tell us . How much money did you get from the state taxpayers and federal taxpayers . He is under oath. Why doesnt he tell us how much he ga got paid by the taxpayers . We dont have to wait something for us. He should be able to tell us. How much did the taxpayers pay him . Again, we have a witness under oath. Im going to go on to other, other questioning and we will, we will see what we can get as further determination but it is at this point, im being advised that this, this is not an accurate and full disclosure. So do disagree with your counsels interpretation. Mr. Cummings, of course. Maybe, mr. Chairman, during the course of this hearing you can confer with counsel. Thats what i want to do. Im going on with the hearing. Well try to do this behind the scenes because i dont want to delay the hearing for what is proven to be, mr. Mica, i will seek additional time for you if we can get the information. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Miss norton is recognized for five minutes. Excuse me. I want to thank you, mr. Chairman, again, for your friendship, for your service and for the respect you have shown for the american citizens who live in the District Of Columbia who demand to be treated as free and equal americans. You have always done that. Appreciate your work on this committee. Very difficult committee and i sympathize. Dr. Gruber, i accept your apology. Im not going to question you further. Martha congresswoman Eleanor Holmes norton now speaking. We just watched congressman issa try to get Jonathan Gruber admit how much federal money he got through the state programs as well. He was not willing to disclose that amount. Obviously the salary sin creasingly interesting issue to everybody, as to the request whether or not he misrepresented himself with the money he made doing that, that could constitute fraud as Rudy Giuliani was talking about. Well take a quick break. If a denture were to be put under a microscope, we can see all the bacteria that still exists on the denture, and that bacteria multiplies very rapidly. Thats why dentists recommend cleaning with polident everyday. Polidents unique micro clean formula works in just 3 minutes, killing 99. 99 of odor causing bacteria. For a cleaner, fresher, brighter denture everyday. Youre down with crestor. Yes when diet and exercise arent enough, adding crestor lowers bad cholesterol up to 55 . Crestor is not for people with liver disease, or women who are nursing, pregnant, or may become pregnant. Tell your doctor all medicines you take. Call your doctor if you have muscle pain or weakness, feel unusually tired, have loss of appetite, upper belly pain, dark urine, or yellowing of skin or eyes. These could be signs of serious side effects. Im down with crestor make your move. Ask your doctor about crestor. Toothbrush. Sweater. Extra sweater. Headphones, sleeping mask. Oh, and this is the xfinity tv app. He can watch his dvrd shows from where ever he wants. Hey. Have fun, make some friends. Alright. Did i mention his neck pillow . sniffs pillow watch your personal dvr library where ever you go. With the x1 entertainment operating system. The holidays can be an especially difficult time. Everythings different now. Sometimes i feel all alone. Christmas used to be my favorite. I just dont expect anything. What if santa cant find me . To help, sleep train is holding a secret santa toy drive. Bring your gift to any sleep train, and help keep the spirit of the holidays alive. Not everyone can be a foster parent. But anyone can help a foster child. Martha we are back on very busy, very important day unfolding on capitol hill this morning. Were expecting any moment to hear from senator Dianne Feinstein. She has just arrived. Were looking on lefthand side of your screen on the senate floor. There is the arrival of Dianne Feinstein who is clearly the woman of the hour when it comes to this story. She is expected to address the controversial interrogation techniques used by cia after the 9 11 terror attacks and the release of a report that details a number of those techniques that many have said that could put our military in danger as well as put other peoples lives in danger as a result. Ambassador james woolsey, the former director of the cia joins me right now. Very good to have you with us this morning. Thank you for being with us today. Good to be with you. Martha is there any reason to think of release of this document at this moment in time is a good idea . No. Why . Well, the details of even, if masked to some extent, could betray the affiliations and involvement of a lot of people around the world in helping the United States and helping us in the aftermath of 9 11 when we had lost 3,000 americans. There was a good deal of sympathy for the United States. We worked together with a lot of countries intelligence. This was six years after i left the agency, so i know about this only from the out side but try to think how were going to get those same Intelligence Services and people to help us and work with us again even though this information is been highly classified and is extremely sensitive and can be used to find out who some people are, even in spite of that, if were turning lights, the president is, and the Senate Committee is, i dont see how we get any help the next time around. I think we are in, doing a great disservice to ourselves. Martha it is very clear just because this program was approved and the cia requested the approval of the Justice Department before they carried it out. The current Justice Department has done three investigations and eric holder said he would bring no charges against anybody involved in these activities. So i am wondering why now . Why the timing . Why push this through right before the overturning and bringing in of this new congress . Your guess is as good as mine. I dont think its a wise decision. I generally thought senator feinstein is a very able Public Servant but i think this is a very bad decision. Martha all right. We have breaking news well leave it there. Mr. Woolsey, thank you very much. Great to have you with us as always. Bill those on the hill say leadership in congress was briefed three dozen times before that program was shut down. There will be a lot more on this throughout the day and again tomorrow here in americas newsroom. Meantime there is Jonathan Gruber. He is still front and center. Were back inside of that hearing room in a moment as americas newsroom continues right after this. I have disclosed bill during the commercial break, jim jordan from ohio was repeatedly asking Jonathan Gruber how much money he made for his counsel, it was thought he made 400,000 from the white house and an additional 4 6 million possibly. Gruber did not answer that question martha he said earlier in his testimony that it had been far overestimated in the reports, so well see where this goes. Hes definitely on the hot seat at the moment. More of that coming up. Bill on happening now. Well see you again tomorrow. Martha bye with, everybody. Jon a very controversial report on cia interrogations about to be released. There are fears it could put american lives in danger. Good morning to you, im jon scott. Shannon and im Shannon Bream in today for jenna lee. We are live on the senate floor as we await senator Dianne Feinstein who chairs the Intelligence Committee. Shes getting ready to release the summer of a report on enhanced interrogation techniques used in the post9 11 era. It is expected to criticize and graphically detail those techniques, conclude they were torture and then question the value of the information they produced. The white house is bracing for remore cushions with u. S. Embassies