Transcripts For MSNBC Morning Joe 20240702

democrats' panic is muzzled if poll numbers stay. there are big events, including donald trump's sentencing coming up shortly. john heilemann, we'll talk again in a little bit on "morning joe." thanks for getting up "way too early" on this friday morning from atlanta. "morning joe" starts right now. i'll fix the taxes. we have a thousand trillionaires in america, i mean billionaires. what's happening? they, in fact, pay 8.2% taxes. if they just paid 24%, 25%, either one of those numbers, they've raised $500 million -- billion dollars, i should say, in a ten-year period. wipe out the debt. we can help make sure all those things we need to do, child care, elder care, making sure we continue to strengthen our health care system, making sure we're able to make every single solitary person eligible for what i've been able to do with the covid -- excuse me, with dealing with everything we have to do -- look, if we finally beat medicare -- >> after you rallied your supporters that day, some of them stormed the capitol to stop the constitutionally mandated counting of electoral votes. as president, you swore an oath to, quote, preserve, protect, and defend, unquote, the constitution. what do you say to voters who believe you violated that oath through your actions and inaction on january 6th and for worry you'll do it again? >> i don't think too many believe that. let me tell you about january 6th. on january 6th, we had a great border. nobody coming through, very few. on january 6th, we were energy independent. january 6th, we had the lowest taxes ever. >> you have 80 seconds left. my question was, what do you say to those voters who believe you violated your constitutional oath through your actions, inaction on january 6th, 2021, and worry you'll do it again? >> well, i didn't say that to anybody. i said peacefully and patriotically. nancy pelosi, if you just watched the news from two days ago, on tape to our daughter, who is a documentary filmmaker, they say, she's saying, oh, no, it's my responsibility. i was responsible for this. i offered her 10,000 soldiers or national guard, and she turned them down. i had virtually nothing to do -- they asked me to make a speech. >> look, he encouraged those folks to go up on capitol hill. >> what they've done to some people that are so innocent, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. what you have done, how you have destroyed the lives of so many people. >> all right. two moments that, in many ways, defined last night's debate. donald trump's performance included his usual stream of grievances, along with many false and misleading claims. however, as you saw in that first clip, the debate was particularly rough for president biden. concerns about his age, perhaps his biggest weakness according to polls, were on full display as he struggled through many of his responses, speaking with a soft, hoarse voice, which his campaign blamed on a cold. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, june 28th. along with joe, willie, and me, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. nbc news national affairs analyst john heilemann, also a partner and chief political columnist at puck. they're both at the debate site in atlanta. msnbc contributor mike barnicle joins us. pulitzer prize winning columnist and associate editor of "the washington post" and msnbc political analyst eugene robinson. it is good to have you all on board. i think we should begin with joe, willie, and me, and get your reflections on the debate last night. >> well, i think i should start by saying, without any apologies, that i love joe biden and jill, and i will gladly debate anybody anytime, anyplace, anywhere, over the issue of whether joe biden has been the most effective president, passing bipartisan legislation, expanding nato, in responding to the rising threat coming from china, by flexing america's strength around china, by having the strongest economy in the world, bar none, the strongest economy, actually, relative to the rest of the world in 50, 60, 70 years, the strongest dollar in half a century, the strongest military relative to the rest of the world. i would argue, and many others would argue, since 1945. i think his presidency has been an unqualified success. if, however, you believe, as do i, and as do so many people who watch this program, and who fear just how dark of a place a second donald trump term will take america, then i think it is critical that we ask the same questions about this man i love, respect, and whose public service in saving this country from donald trump over the last 3 1/2 years i honor and always will. i think we have to ask the same questions of him that we have asked of donald trump since 2016. that is, if he were ceo and he turned in a performance like that, would any corporation in america, any fortune 500 corporation in america keep him on as ceo? if this were donald trump, time and time again, we talked about the goldwater, barry goldwater, to walk over and tell richard nixon it was over. to tell donald trump it was over. now, the question is, do democrats need to do the same thing of joe biden? i mean, these are hard questions, but the fact is, friends, failure is just not an option. in 2024, failure is not an option. so who i love, who i respect, who i revere for their work and their duty to service over their lifetime really is not relevant. it's not relevant for any of us. it is not relevant for democratic leaders. it's not relevant for anyone. the question is, can -- we know joe biden can govern. i'll debate that issue with anyone, and i will win. i will destroy anybody that wants to debate joe biden's record over the past 3 1/2 years. he can run the white house. he can run the country effectively. despite the barrage of lies that constantly come at him, like donald trump's lies last night. but can he run for president in 2024? donald trump lied. over and over and over and over again. joe biden couldn't respond to any of those lies. in fact, as "the new york times" said, he spent much of the night with his mouth agape and his eyes darting back and forth. he couldn't fact check anything donald trump said. not only that, he missed one layup after another after another. he couldn't respond effectively to donald trump trying to overthrow american democracy on january 6th. he couldn't respond effectively to donald trump's continued stream of lies about his own record, and he couldn't even respond effectively on the issue of abortion where, for some reason, he darted wildly to the issue of immigration. and on immigration, as i said yesterday morning, any democrat that can't turn to their republican opponent and blast them for killing the strongest, toughest border bill in the history of america, drafted by a right-wing senator from oklahoma, may not be up to the job. and so that's the question. i know people are waiting. oh, and david pluff, i have respect for david, he said, donald trump really turned off swing voters in a lot of focus groups once they saw him again. that makes a lot of sense. but the door was open so many times. this race should not be close. we've been asking, why is this race close? we have no idea why this race is close. we saw last night why this race has been close. and why i fear donald trump will be the next president of the united states unless things change. i will say, mika, the one thing that i know you believe, it may have been because he was sick. i'm open to that fact. i'll just say, as i said on the show, i spent three hours with this man, maybe, back in march. three hours, cogent, on top of the issues, on top of every issue around the world. last night, he simply was not on the biggest debate stage ever. i think what surprised me and what surprised a lot of people very close to joe biden is the fact that this man always rises to the occasion. last night was, sadly for him, and i believe for democrats and this country, and, again, if you believe what's at stake in this election is what we believe is at stake, i'll even use the word tragically, tragically did not rise to the occasion last night. >> okay. as you can see, you won't see us spinning here on "morning joe" at all. but let me tell you what i believe, then we'll go to willie. biden had a terrible night. he could not land a thought, not even in the closing statement. that's the easiest part. write down a few words, go through the thoughts. while i validate the chaos and hysteria democrats might be feeling, anybody who cares about democrat might be feeling, anybody who cares about women's rights and our safety and our lives might be feeling, totally understand that. at the same time, as the night was over, i was hearing you on the phone and all our phones were exploding, i just had this gut feeling that i'm not ready to give up even close. joe biden has lost more in his life than he has won in every way, especially politically. this man has lost and lost, and the only time he wins is when it matters. we have proof of that. he has lost in personal ways. he has lost and hit rock bottom in every way possible, and every time, he comes back fighting. so, for me, watching what happened last night, again, it was terrible. it was terrible. there's no way to spin it. i still wonder what he's going to look like in a week. i wonder if he was sick. he came out on the stage, and i thought something was wrong. i still believe he is the best choice for this country, even with that performance last night. because he was standing next to a man who represents fascism, who doesn't believe in this country, and would not even agree to the results of this election if they were free and fair to him. a man who has incited a riot. a man who tried to overturn the election. a man who is liable of sexual abuse. a man who is a fraudster. a man who is a convicted felon. so many times joe biden has hit rock bottom. last night was one of them. i'm just not going to jump to conclusions here and jump on the hysteria train. i am rocked a little bit by it, didn't like it, was really worried, but i really, truly believe in him as a president and as a human being. >> well, and i know so many people watching do agree with you. again, i already said what i think of the man personally and think of his job. i will say, willie, that, for me, i've been in politics long enough and i've been around politics long enough to know that, often, time doesn't heal all wounds. if this debate does not lead to serious discussions between democrats and the president, then what you end up having is sort of this frozen political situation, where democrats start convincing themselves two, three, five, ten days out that the guy in power, the guy that the people closest to power will suddenly, you know -- they'll start spinning and they'll believe their spin. so i don't think that it's panic. i'm the first one. we talk about democratic bedwetting. last night, that is not this. >> this is a five-alarm fire. >> this is like a war. we see a political battle for democracy, and this is like losing a major battle. is it panic after a war where a major battle is lost to say, this general, we don't know if this general is up to leading the troops the rest of the way? i mean, again, these are just things that democrats are going to have to answer over the next couple of days. i'm curious your thoughts. >> yeah, we'll talk a lot about the substance over the next few hours of the show about last night. donald trump did what he does. he lied. he lied about having the greatest economy in the history of the world. he didn't, of course. he lied about his role on january 6th. he lied about immigration, what happened during his administration. he lied and he lied and he lied. that's all true. the problem is, the american people were watching to see if joe biden, in this moment -- we talked yesterday about how people have tuned this out and will tune in at two, three, four big moments -- last night was one of those, tuning in to see if he was up to the job. the resounding answer, last night anyway, was no. it happened within the first 10, 12, 15 minutes. there's been a lot of talk in the last 12 hours about how elected officials, democrats, insiders, campaign strategists, people who also have to run on the ballot this fall, worry they're going to lose if joe biden is on the ballot. also, donors, they're concerned. i think the bigger problem is -- that's all a conversation we'll have in a minute and what that means. the bigger problem is that regular people, people who don't watch cable news every day, people who are not on twitter, people who don't absorb politics the way we do, they watched last night and said, "my god, i don't think he is up to this." they did tune in last night. >> right. >> many of them democrats hoping for the best. instead, their worst fears were confirmed. like you guys, i heard kamala harris' name a lot last night. i heard gavin newsom's name a lot. i heard governor josh shapiro's name a lost. he'll be a guest on the show in a bit. i heard wes moore's name last night. people who desperately want what you laid out, joe, which is to prevent donald trump from being in the white house again, last night becoming convinced, and maybe their minds can be changed but it didn't feel like it last night, that joe biden now cannot beat donald trump. that is the message not just from party insiders but from regular people who will decide the election. >> the thing is, mika, this is not because -- i don't think any democrat would want anything to be about power or personality or about a personality cult. none of this is personal. i remember telling newt gingrich when he was shocked that we were voting to remove him as speaker, said, "this is nothing personal." if we believe what we believe, i would do this to my mother. i would do this to my mother if i believed she was standing in the way of our goals. in this case, we were talking about a balanced budget and smaller and more effective government back then. now, we're talking about, mike barnicle, democracy. again, i'm not saying that everything happens today and maybe we wait a week. i'm just saying, personal feelings, personal admiration, love, respect, honor, all the things i talked about in my feelings about joe biden, jill biden, and their family, that mika and her family have felt about joe biden for 50 years, that i felt for as long as i've known him, that you've felt about joe biden, they cannot play a role in any of this. this is a battle for the future of american democracy. now is a good time. in june, thank god, in june, not october, in june, this is the last chance for democrats to decide whether this man we've known and loved for a very long time is up to the task of running for president of the united states. your thoughts, mike? >> yeah. you know, it'd be hard to be more insightful than what we've heard from you, mika, and willie, in the last 10 or 15 minutes about what happened last night. watching it last night, i was reminded of a friendship i had for a long time with the late kenny o'donnell, who was then technically chief of staff to john f. kennedy. kenny used to say that the primary job of the chief of staff or anyone that close to the presidency was to tell the president the bad news. well, we now know what the bad news was from last night. joe biden had an awful night, a terrible night. going forward, it's going to be up to -- i mean, my phone, like mika's phone, like everyone's phone, was filled last night with messages from the donor class, people indicating they were crying watching the thing, people upset because of what they perceived to be joe's really, really bad night visually. it's such a visual thing, the tv, the mouth agape quote from "the new york times," all accurate, all true. people indicating to me on the phone, messages, and phone calls that they felt badly for him. unfortunately, nobody votes for president of the united states because they feel badly for someone. elections, as you just indicated, joe, are about the future. >> yeah. >> the panic is now in full bloom, i assume, among the democratic people who put together these tickets, who vote for delegates, who will go to the convention, full-blown panic. there's no doubt about that. the interesting aspect, and it's the only perhaps hopeful aspect of all this, is what are the polls going to show on sunday or monday, an in-depth poll? >> right. >> finally, you saw donald trump for fully an hour and a half, lying about every single issue that impacts people's lives. lying about abortion. lying about taxes. lying about the economy. just full-blown lies. unfortunately, last night, president bin let every fastball hanging out over the plate go by as a strike for donald trump. that's an indication he was just not up to it last night. >> okay, okay. hold on a second. i agree with everything you said except for the last part of it. everybody, calm down. i'll tell you why. i mean, it's fine to not spin what happened last night, and we're not going to. >> by the way -- >> we had a terrible night. >> mika is calm here. you're the only one raising your voice. everybody is calm here. >> but, again, it's the, um, let's just immediately pull this. let's end this. let's find someone else. >> that's not what mike said. >> that attitude toward this is what i am saying slow down on. because, again, there's no spinning it, but let's be balanced. let's for once show some balance in a media world that is so shrill with imbalance that we've become used to this. gene robinson, i'll go to you. >> first of all, we show balance. >> we do. >> second, no one is panicking. i said these with questions joe biden and democrats need to ask themselves. mike said he missed one pitch down the middle after another and wasn't up to it last night. >> right, okay. wasn't up to it last night. >> he said last night. so i will say, it's not panic. i mean, it's not being panicked. understand what's at stake in this election. understand the window is closing very quickly. if joe biden is not up to doing this, and if last night did not reveal that to you and other democrats, then it needs to be revealed pretty soon. mike, finish your thought. alex is asking me to go back to you to finish your thought, then back to mika. >> last night, if it's on the ballot, you have the chance to vote for a good man or a bad man. there is no contest here. not even with last night's performance. joe biden is the good man. joe biden is the decent man. donald trump is the opposite. that's your choice going forward. >> right, right. >> we all agree. >> gene robinson, biden will hear the bad news. >> yeah. >> knowing joe biden, he has tremendous perspective. he will take it hard, and he will also know how to manage through it. what i'm talking about when it comes to balance, and i'm wondering what your thoughts are here, in this media landscape that we are living in, not on this show, but in the media landscape that we have to join, and many of them are pro-trump networks or whatever, donald trump has had a thousand days where he has say something, done something, said many things, including last night, where he appears to be completely unfit for office, completely oblivious of what the office entails, of what service means, and is out for himself. joe biden had a horrible night. that's all i'm saying. >> yeah. >> gene? >> yeah, joe biden had a horrible night, absolutely. a very, very bad time, as joe said. it is fortunate for the democratic party that this happened in june and not in september or october. because if i had happened in september, october, i believe it would have guaranteed the election of donald trump to another term as president. i think that would be disastrous for the country. you know, we have seen incumbent presidents blow the first debate before. but there was a big difference between those earlier examples and last night. in 2012, in denver, barack obama blew the debate against mitt romney, and, yes, there was concern, and, yes, there was bedwetting, but going into the debate, nobody thought barack obama was lackadaisical and uninformed. they just thought, yeah, he had a bad night. going into last night's debate, a lot of people, rightly or wrongly, thought joe biden was too old and feeble to have another four-year term as president. and he came out last night and didn't dispel that impression, as i expected him to, but he reinforced it. that is a real problem. that is a real problem. so my question is, yes, absolutely, mika, there should be no rush to anything. let's see how this develops over the next few days, but let's start thinking -- or i believe democrats should start thinking seriously and concretely about scenarios, about whether joe biden can, indeed, run for president. as joe said, we know he can be president. he has been an excellent president. i have never seen biden like he was last night. joe, you talked about your three hours with him. i haven't spent that much time with him recently, but the times i have spent with him, that wasn't the joe biden i saw last night. >> by the way, gene, you know who else said that? kevin mccarthy. despite what he said to "the wall street journal" when he contradicted himself, but he said that, repeatedly, he came back and told his staff that joe biden was an effective negotiator and drove the meetings. >> absolutely. >> so it's not just me. it was republicans that were in negotiations. there is a reason he passed more bipartisan legislation than any president in a generation. go ahead, gene. >> well, no. i mean, the question is, how do you unring the bell that was rung last night? that is my question. how do you sort of take that back? i don't know. maybe, again, time and events and donald trump can certainly reshape this race in all kinds of ways that might be favorable to joe biden, but that was a really, really bad and significantly bad night, i think. because it reinforced what is biden's biggest weakness. that is a problem for, you know, in running for president. it's not a problem in being president, but it is a problem in running for president in this very, very tight race where everybody is at stake. need some concrete thinking here. >> john heilemann and jonathan lemire are in atlanta, the site of last night's debate. jonathan lemire, i'll start with you. let's remember the biden campaign introduced the idea of this debate, of this early debate, with this format, under these terms, so they could sort of reset for the american people and establish that joe biden was up for the job. that was the point of this debate. the consensus is that he failed at that last night. i'll say again what we said at the top of the show. donald trump lied for 90 minutes. we'll go through all of it, chapter and verse, about january 6th, the economy he had, how he handled covid. we could go on for four hours this morning on all of that. that's all true, but that is not what people will remember coming out of last night. what are you hearing? you were there last night talking to officials, talking to people down in the room after the debate. what are you hearing about last night and about what may happen from here? >> let's start here. the stakes of this election couldn't be higher. the loudest voice saying that has been the biden campaign, saying democracy itself is on the ballot. they looked at this race, saw a frozen race, very static race, and, to your point, willie, they're the ones who wanted this early debate. they felt they needed to grab americans' attention, tell them, this is your choice, biden and it's trump. you might not be happy about it, but here's where we are. listen to donald trump. let's remind you of why another four years of him would be so di disastrous to this country. they knew the bar they had to clear was about joe biden's age and competency for the job. he cleared it at the state of the union. he did not clear it last night. every aide i've spoken to, democrats are deeply worried about what they saw from the president. yes, trump lied. we will get into that, but the fundamentals here last night was that president biden did not answer the bell. i was here last night in atlanta. democrats scrambling. we had vice president harris, not scheduled to do interviews last night, suddenly scrambled to do them on the cable networks, including msnbc. we had aides, about 45 minutes into the debate, suddenly blasting reporters text messages, telling us for the first time that president biden had a cold. that was explaining why he wasn't doing well. they pointed to his rally in north carolina later today, saying that'll be a moment where he does do better. we had the moments after the debate here in the spin room, on the campus of georgia tech university, republicans, trump surrogates out instantly, wanting to talk about how well their guy did last night. we had to wait 15, 20 minutes for anybody from the biden campaign to show up. when they did, they were subdued. gavin newsom, the california governor, was flat out asked if he'd be the democratic nominee instead of joe biden. he, of course, said no. he said he stood with president biden. john heilemann, that moment sort of captures where we are right now. this was not just the 2012 debate. president obama, yes, he was bad that night, but he went into the debate ahead. joe biden was not ahead last night. he wasn't down by much. it was a close race, margin of error race, but he had to answer some questions, and he didn't. he didn't show up last night. now, where do we go from here? it's a two-part question. how does the biden campaign try to right the ship to say, look, he's our guy? or how do democrats make the push to him to say, no, you're not. we need to go another direction? >> well, i'll start by saying that, without having an opinion -- opinionizing about this, covering presidential debates since 1992, having seen a fair number of bad nights for candidates on first debates, bad nights for incumbents, bad nights for challengers, in terms of measuring the degree of alarm of a presidential candidate's party about their performance, i have never seen anything like this by an order of magnitude. >> yes. >> this is a reporting matter. sitting congressmen, sitting senators, sitting governors, millionaires, billionaires, across the spectrum, people who have been supportive and loyal to joe biden since day one, and continue in some respects to be supportive and loyal to joe biden, freaking out last night. i can't -- as a reporting matter, i can't overstate the freakout over what they were seeing. they were what will happen now, but i will tell you, by the time you got to the first commercial break, you had the highest levels of the democratic party, senators, governors, congress people, biggest bundlers, biggest donors, there were conversations about, what do we do know? we have to figure out how that works. there was a story the other day in the totally non-credible, in many respects, "daily mail," i think, couple weeks ago, on monday that said that the clintons, the obamas, schumer, and pelosi were going to watch this debate, and if it did not go well for joe biden, they'd try to have the talk with him about stepping back. many laughed at that. it was not a credible report. "the daily mail," british tabloid, whatever. i had six good sources after that who said, that's not totally false. the interesting part of that was the schumer and pelosi piece. no one thinks joe biden would think to the obamas, the clintons on this subject, but because he cares so much about democrats in the house and senate, there was some discussion about whether nancy pelosi and chuck schumer privately were taking soundings on this question. i don't know what will happen now going forward, but i will say, these are the kinds of conversations that people are having now in the democratic party as we speak. what to do. the level of panic, for me, in my time covering politics, i've never seen a level of panic on this scale. >> to be clear, the biden campaign defended their candidate's performance, saying he drew the contrast, showing what a danger trump would be to the presidency. to illustrate the point, congresswoman debbie dingell, who is a dear friend of president biden, knows michigan better than anyone, she was my guest on "way too early." i put it to her whether president biden should remain atop the ticket. she didn't want to answer, didn't say. that shows where the party is now. we'll have much more ahead on last night's debate, including what biden and trump had to say about their ages, and what democratic governor gavin newsom of california had to say after biden's debate performance. >> we will, of course, be tracking, again, all the lies that donald trump told over those 90 minutes that, unfortunately, were never answered. you're watching "morning joe." we're back in 90 seconds. , look! safe step's best offer, just got better! now, when you purchase your brand new safe step walk-in tub, you'll receive a free shower package. yes, a free shower package! and if you call today, you'll also receive 15% off your entire order. now you can enjoy the best of both worlds! the therapeutic benefits of a warm, soothing bath that can help increase mobility, relieve pain, boost energy, and even improve sleep! or, if you prefer, you can take a refreshing shower. all-in-one product! call now to receive a free shower package plus 15% off your brand new safe step walk-in tub. ah, these bills are crazy. she has no idea she's sitting on a goldmine. well she doesn't know that if she owns a life insurance policy of $100,000 or more she can sell all or part of it to coventry for cash. even a term policy. even a term policy? even a term policy! find out if you're sitting on a goldmine. call coventry direct today at the number on your screen, or visit coventrydirect.com. it's ridiculous. we have a debate. we're trying to justify his presidency. his presidency, without question, the worst president, the worst presidency in the history of our country. we shouldn't be having a debate about it. there's nothing to debate. >> worst president in history? 159 presidential scholars voted him the worst president in the history of the united states of america. he was standing with his four star general, and he told him, he said, i don't want to go in there because they're losers and suckers. my son was not a loser. he was not a sucker. you're the sucker. you're the loser. >> he made up the suckers and losers, so he should apologize to me right now. >> the idea that i have to apologize to you for anything along the lines. we've done more for veterans than any president has in american history. 40% fewer people coming across the border illegally. better than when he left office. i'll continue to move until we get the total ban -- the total initiative relative so what we'll do with more border patrol and more asylum officers. >> president trump? >> i really don't know what he said at the end of this. i don't think he knows what he said either. >> the only person on this stage that's a convicted felon the man i'm looking at right now. >> when he talks about a convicted felon, his son is a convicted felon at a very high level. his con is convicted. >> how many billions of dollars do you owe in civil penalties for molesting a woman in public, doing a range of things, of having sex with a porn star while your wife was pregnant? i mean, what are you talking about? you have the morals of an alley cat. >> sir? >> i didn't have sex with a porn star. >> i'm happy to play golf if you carry your own bag. think you can do it? >> i know -- let's not act like -- >> president trump, we're going to turn -- >> let's not act like children. >> you are a child. >> will you accept the results of the election regardless of who wins, yes or no, please? >> if it is a fair and legal and good election, absolutely. >> i doubt you'll accept it because you're such a whiner. the idea if you lose again, you accepting anything, you can't stand the loss. something snapped in you when you lost the last time. >> let me just say after watching tonight's debate -- [ laughter ] -- both of these men should be using performance-enhancing drugs. i'm sorry. both. [ applause ] as much of it as they can get, as many times a day as their bodies will allow. if performance-enhancing drugs will improve their lucidity, their ability to solve problems -- and in one of the candidates' cases, improve their truthfulness, morality, and malignant narcissism -- then depository away. guess what, everybody? they should be taking whatever magical drugs can keep their brains into gear because this ain't olympic swimming. you know what i'm saying? oh, he solved the middle east, but he was doping, so it doesn't count. there's going to be an asterisk next to his presidency. by the way, if those drugs don't exist, if there aren't actually performance-enhancing drugs for these candidates, i could sure [ bleep ] use some recreational ones right now. because this cannot be real life! it just can't! [ bleep ]! we're america! gosh! >> willie, jon stewart -- >> that was great. >> -- his best. >> wow. >> i will say, i've never really cared what, you know -- people say, what does the rest of the world think of us? i thought, well, we're the freest -- we freed and fed more people than anybody on the planet. i will say, last night, when these two elderly gentlemen were having a back and forth about their golf handicap, i was so embarrassed that that's the view the world had of our debate for presidency. of course, you know, there were so many lies that we just played there. i mean, he lied -- you know, donald trump lied about january 6th. he lied about stolen election. which, by the way -- >> charlottesville. >> -- shocked it took so long to get there. shocked you had one guy up there who was a felon, who tried to overthrow the american government, and it took 40, 45 minutes for that issue to even come up. i'm not sure how that happened. but it took 45 minutes. you have here, even the suckers and losers quote, donald trump lying about not saying that. saying that joe biden made it up. no, general john kelly, his longest serving chief of staff. >> lost his son. >> lost his son, i believe in afghanistan, told "the atlantic that." he was with donald trump. kelly confirmed that trump privately disparaged u.s. service members and veterans and called fallen soldiers suckers and losers during his presidency. willie, that's general kelly, who, like joe biden, lost his son, and general kelly lost his son at war. >> yeah. i mean, unless you're deep, deep marinated in the maga universe, just ask yourself, who do you believe in that story? donald trump or general john kelly, who has given his life in service of the country. >> thank you. >> to jon stewart's point about the performance-enhaning drugs, joe, i had a lot of people say last night, well, i guess we know joe biden was not on mountain dew, as one congressman alleged he'd be jacked up on mountain dew. that was the most tame of things introduced as possibilities. clearly not on anything last night. to your point, i'll take it to mike barnicle, what joe and mika have been saying is it's just not the style. the style was bad. we've all talked about that. but on the substance that joe biden was not able to answer the lies in his rebuttals, the format of the debate, which i will say, without the crowd and everything in there, we could actually get to issues and a lot of them in 90 minutes, it was left to the president of the united states to answer those criticisms. he, oddly, got off course. abortion, we've been told, is the cornerstone of the 2024 campaign. it is so important to so many people of all different parties in this country. somehow, the president fell flat on that issue. when asked about it, he drifted off into a conversation about immigration. it was on the president of the united states to answer the lies last night, and, boy, were there a lot of them from normer former president trump, and he wasn't up to the job of doing that. >> willie, again, as this morning proceeds, i get sadder and sadder and sadder. i was sad last night watching joe biden. joe biden has been a terrific president of the united states in terms of taking care of the world, in terms of trying to take care of ordinary people in this country. he's been terrific at it. his goal is to make the world a better place for the middle class in this country and a safer place for countries like ukraine. without joe biden, ukraine probably doesn't exist this morning as ukraine. it's probably a captive of the soviet union, of russia, of putin. good luck to everybody along the ukraine border once putin gets a taste of the victory he would have had. but, you know, joe biden last night stood next to a man who actually said, quote, unquote, i never had sex with a porn star. the guy is a candidate for president of the united states. this is the united states of america. this is the best we have? donald trump, this is the best alternative we have? a guy who says, "i never had sex with a porn star?" i never thought i'd live to see the day when politics, national politics, things that are critical to the future of our country, critical to the future of your children, my children, my grandchildren, everyone's families in the country, the guy poses a distinct threat to our way of life, to the way of the democracy we all live in. yet, here he is. >> yup. you know, the thing is, though, jonathan lemire, at one point, speaking about ukraine, donald trump said, after the invasion of ukraine, that he talked to vladimir putin. let me get the exact quote. when putin saw that, he said, you know what? i think we're going to go in and maybe take it. this was my dream. i talked to him about it. this is trump saying he talked to vladimir putin about it, his dream. that's shocking that donald trump would say that. it is shocking that anybody would say that. and i must say, for democrats, for people who love this country, for people who believe that ukraine needs to be freed from russia, the attacks, the bigger question is, what democrat on stage with donald trump last night would not have stopped and said, wait, wait, hold on, wait. did you just say that you talked to vladimir putin after the invasion? i guarantee you they're going to spin this now. after the invasion of ukraine? and vladimir putin confessed to you that it was his dream to invade ukraine? there's so many of those things, jonathan, that donald trump left hanging out there. it wasn't a fastball. it was a ball on the tee that, let me just say, that josh shapiro would have hit for a home run. my god, gavin newsom would have hit it for a home run. any democrat would have knocked that out and hit it for a home run. he said, i talked to vladimir putin after the invasion, and he told me it was his dream to invade ukraine. yet, that's another pitch that went right past, right down the middle of the plate. >> went past everybody. >> yeah. one of the few, i thought, good moments from president biden, you mentioned nato, is he tried to ask donald trump if he would stay in nato if he wanted to. donald trump was about to answer, then, bizarrely, was cut off by the moderators, trying to keep the time moving opposed to letting the men have a discussion. you're right. president biden didn't say anything about vladimir putin. early on in the debate, he missed opportunity after opportunity. you mentioned how he pivoted from abortion, nonsensicly, to immigration. there was also a moment early on when he, biden, introduced the concept of afghanistan. the afghanistan withdrawal is one of -- even the president's allies will note -- one of the darker moments of his term. very successful term otherwise, they'll say. it was biden himself who brought up afghanistan, allowing trump to hammer him on that. john heilemann, i mean, there were moments, to joe's point, last night where it is hard to imagine any other democrat not rebutting what trump had to say. all the lies. there were so many. biden wasn't able to. he wasn't able to do it. those -- some close to him will say, it's just a bad night. for a lot of democrats panicking today and american voters, they look and say, actually, maybe this is who he is, should he continue in this job going forward. >> well, i think, you know, one of the things -- i think, joe, when we were talking yesterday on the air about, you know, what the biden message has come down to, like, what is the frame, and this question of trump cares only about himself, biden is fighting for you, trump only fights for himself, and the various things that might come out of that. i looked at this last night. 90 minutes on the debate stage. the message they've been honing, you heard surrogates saying it, a boiled down version on television, on networks leading up to the debate last night, i defy you to go through and find those words coming out of joe biden's mouth last night. the message they made the frame for the race going forward, something the candidate didn't deliver in the course of 90 minutes. i think that kind of performance failure, a basic performance failure, where you decided this is the frame for the race and the candidate doesn't say anything approximating it once over the course of 90 minutes, that's why so many democrats are nervous and concerned about this. john, you pointed -- mika i think suggested, she might not be alone in missing the vladimir putin reference that went by. many might not be as close as you were, joe, to catch it, but there were basic hanging curves out there over the plate that joe biden, on a normal day, on a day six months ago, we've seen joe biden in recent vintage knock out of the park, last night, he didn't. the thing is, you know, we are supposed to have a second presidential debate. i do not think that debate is very likely to happen at this point. you never know with donald trump. he may just be enough of a narcissist and a gambler to think he can do this again, but the great likelihood is this may be the only debate we see, joe. the reality is, game-changing moments between now and the election, there's a lot of time between now and november 5th. >> yes. >> the things on the calendar, where there are going to be tens of millions of viewers tuning in, there aren't that many. certainly not where they'll go face-to-face again. you know, how you turn the page on this? >> that's the question. >> i will say, it is true that it's only june. i remember a very important article that you wrote, john heilemann, in 2012, about the obama/romney race. it was a look back. you said in that piece, you showed how barack obama's team had already locked in the perception of mitt romney as this evil, money-grubbing, venture capitalist who destroyed people's lives and killed a man by taking his insurance away. as unfair as those attacks were, as you said in your "new york" magazine piece, that reality was locked in with voters by may. >> by now. >> by now. we're now in june. >> yeah. >> that is the problem. john, thank you so much for being with us. we greatly appreciate it. i'll just say this, mika, as we close this hour and are about to start a new hour. i would just say that john is right. the president never got to that line, that this is, you know -- i'm doing this for the country. donald trump is doing it for himself. >> right. >> i will say, there is a -- even a more stinging realization inside the white house now. there needs to be. again, as i'm saying, the president needs to reflect on this. jill biden needs to reflect on this. people close to him need to reflect on this and come up with a decision. but turn that around and ask that of yourself. at this point, are you the best person to save american democracy? you've done it once, and you will forever be remembered in the history books for doing that. but at this point, are you doing it for yourself? are you doing it for your pride? are you doing it for your ego? or are you doing it for the country? for a man -- i'd never ask that question of donald trump because he is a narcissist, but joe biden has given his life, his family. he sacrificed everything for 50 years of public servant. >> the question we'll be talking about in the next few hours and wondering is what does joe biden need to do now if he wants to turn this around? i will say, for those who are talking about him being replaced immediately, let's move on. let's find someone else, you know who hates that? you know who hates that talk the most? old people. people who are older. people who are in later years of their life. they don't like being counted out. just a point. i think those people vote, as well. coming up, reaction to last night's debate from a pair of the president's allies, where we'll be joined by pennsylvania governor josh shapiro, a member of the biden/harris campaign national advisory board. as well as campaign senior adviser and spokeswoman adrienne elrod. 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don't support his policies or assertions, somehow the american people always wanted this to be state's rights, which was laughable and absurd. i think for all of us, worry less and do more. we have the opportunity to turn the page. we have the opportunity to put our heads down. we have the opportunity to universally have the back of this president, who has had our back. you don't turn you back. you go home with the one who brought you to the dance. >> there's panic that's set in. >> there shouldn't be. >> there's panic by people who watched the debate, who was democrats, strategists, and some inside democratic campaigns. is it unfounded? >> it is unhelpful and unnecessary. we have to go in and keep our heads high. as i say, we have to have the back of this president. you don't turn your back because of one performance. what kind of party does that? it's been a master class. 15.6 million jobs. that's eight times more than the last three republican presidents combined. the only thing the last three republican presidents have in common, recession. we need to deliver for this president in this moment. with all due respect, the more time we have these conversations, go down the rabbit holes, it is unhelpful to our democracy, the fate and future of our democracy, the world. they need us to step up, and that's what i intend to do. >> california governor gavin newsom speaking with msnbc after last night's debate. welcome back to "morning joe." it is friday, june 28th. jonathan lemire and mike barnicle are still with us. joining the conversation, we have president of the national action network and host of msnbc's "politics nation," reverend al sharpton. the host of the podcast "on brand with donny deutsch," donny deutsch. author and nbc news presidential historian, michael beschloss. and msnbc news and political analyst, former senator claire mccaskill. can't wait to hear from all of you in this second hour of "morning joe." >> and we won't go into it as much as the first hour, but if you're just tuning in, i have to say, mika, i agree with gavin newsom on many things. joe biden has the best job numbers in the last 40 years. dollar is stronger than anytime in the last 50 years. nato has expanded and is more powerful than it's ever been since its founding in the 1940s. america militarily is stronger relative to the rest of the world than it's been probably since 1945. our economy is stronger relative to the rest of the world than it's been in a very, very long time. probably since the 1980s. there is no doubt that joe biden has done a great job getting bipartisan legislation through, that republicans and democrats said he could never get through. he knows how to do this job. the question joe biden, jill biden, the family, friends need to ask themselves are not whether he's up for the job of being president of the united states, but whether he is up to the job of defeating donald trump. he did it in 2020. history will be kind to him because he saved american democracy and took us through a time when donald trump was trying to burn down american democracy, almost literally on january 6th. he continues to lie about january 6th. he continues to lie about so many other things. the question is, though, despite my belief that joe biden has had an extremely successful first term, is it time for him to step down? that's a question. that window has not completely closed, but it is closing. i will say, with all due respect to the governor of california, you are not hurting america, you are not hurting the cause of america by asking these tough questions now. you are hurting the cause of america by closing your eyes, putting your head down, and saying we're going to just plow forward regardless of what we saw, what all of us saw last night. the inability to complete sentences. the inability to make easy layups, one after another after another after another. it was the worst debate performance in modern political history. the question, mika, i know, that has to be asked is, you believe it may have just been because he had a cold last night, because he wasn't feeling well. that's why i say, let's see what happens two, three, four days from now. >> yeah. >> let's see if that's the case. but i will tell you, there were so many opportunities that were missed last night, that i don't think a cold is what caused that. >> also last night, trump lied for the whole night. >> right. >> the same question could be asked from his family, why they aren't sitting him town and saying, are you fit for this office? >> that's not going to be asked. >> do you care about the constitution? >> for balance, that should be the question asked of donald trump. you said this is the question that needs to be asked of joe biden. i'm just saying -- >> well, because -- >> -- for balance -- >> because we have -- >> donald trump lied all night long. >> we know this. >> all night long -- exactly -- america has become used to his lies. they're not shocking anymore. it's not a defense of joe biden. let me talk about the topic on hand. i'm just saying, the same kinds of questions can be asked of donald trump. >> i know that. >> no sugar coating this. >> if he is lying and he makes obvious lies -- >> i hear you. >> -- that a 10-year-old would have known he is giving, joe biden has to answer those questions. >> got it. i totally agree with you. i thought the moderators could have, as well, but the job was on joe biden. he failed at the job last night. there's no sugar coating what happened last night. it was terrible. he was off. he couldn't rebut an endless stream of lies. he couldn't land an easy thought. it was not good. at the end of the night, way past midnight, joe was on the phone with people calling him pretty hysterical, pretty upset. i could feel the room he was in. but joe biden has hit rock bottom in his life many times. he has suffered unimaginable losses throughout his entire life. he has lost two children, one baby and one adult. he has suffered through his own son's addiction. that's just on the personal side. he has lost multiple presidential elections. he has hit rock bottom in the election he won in the primary process. and you know what? the one thing we know about joe biden, he does win when it matters. so you said earlier in the show, if a ceo did this, dot, dot, dot. if a ceo did this, who would wonder if he is feeling okay? they'd wait a few days. that's what i'm willing to do because i truly believe in this man and what he has done for this country, even though his performance last night was terrible. >> and i think that's more than fair for a man who has given 50 years of his life to public service in america, to take a breath and see what happens over the next few days. then ask the question. i will say this, willie, and i said it last hour, for people just waking up, the thing about politics is, it's not personal. i said last hour, i love joe biden. i love his family. i respect him for his service to america. i will forever be grateful for what he did in 2020 and for what he's done since then. with, i believe, great leadership. but 2024 is not about joe biden's past. 2024 is about america's future, and it will be a bleak, dark future if donald trump is elected president of the united states. and that is, right now, that's what's in the balance. i must say, many democrats and independents and republicans, and republicans who fear a second donald trump term and what it means for freedom, what it means for liberty, what it means for the constitution, those people have every right to be deeply worried. >> and that's exactly the point, joe. that's exactly why you heard the panic last night and continue to hear it this morning from democrats. i'll say again, not just insiders, not just people in d. d.c, not just people on capitol hill, donors, but regular, everyday democrats who don't live and breathe this stuff, the people i call-in the nornormies they wanted to be reassured that joe biden was oak. he was going to run this campaign and beat donald trump. their worst fears were confirmed by the performance last night. we will say again now for the fifth or sixth time just in the last hour we've been on the air, donald trump lied from start to finish last night. he lied about the economy under his presidency. >> thank you. >> he lied about the way he handled a global pandemic that racked our nation, that killed more than a million people, that shut down our economy, that kept our kids out of schools. he lied about all of that. he lied about his role on january 6th. he is an indecent man. joe biden is a good and decent man. but that's not the point. the point is, can joe biden beat donald trump? all of those facts do matter. what mattered last night was did joe biden look like a man who could defeat donald trump and prevent all that may be coming if donald trump returns to the white house this fall? so, claire mccaskill, you were on last night in the immediate moments after the debate. you were pointed in your criticism. for people waking up this morning who may not have seen it, i'm curious how you're feeling after, i don't know, maybe two, three hours of sleep last night, as you wake up and have absorbed what you saw last night. >> well, i'm feeling sad. this is not a great day for anyone who cares deeply about this country. you know, what you all have said is all true. the most important thing is that donald trump is the problem. donald trump is the problem, not joe biden. but by saying that, we have to acknowledge that the only job that joe biden had last night was to reassure america that he was not too old to do the job. he failed. he failed miserably. now, i mean, think about why joe biden is poised to be the nominee of our party. there were a lot of people, and i think everybody that is on this panel, and everybody who has talked to anybody that is very involved in democratic politics knows, there were always doubts about how old he was and whether it was a good idea, but donald trump was such a threat. all the democrats coalesced and said, you know, we can't have an inner party fight right now. we have donald trump to worry about. this is really a crisis for our country. donald trump is a crisis. he lies. he cheats. he steals. he doesn't care about anything but himself. he makes us vulnerable in terms of our national security. everyone coalesced around joe biden. now, we've gone 180. now, we are all worried that joe biden is going to allow donald trump to become president again. so this is, just like joe said, this is not personal. i love joe biden. i do. i feel terribly for him that this has happened. but i don't know what he can fix in three days. is he going to come out and do a press conference and allow everybody to ask him questions? is he going to -- you know, it's very hard for him to fix this. politically, it is very hard for him to fix this. so how do we go forward? i'm not sure. i know this, the panic people feel today is not about anything other than making sure donald trump doesn't become president. >> certainly, joe and mika, some of the logistics last night ended up not working in president biden's favor. as discussed, his campaign later revealed that he was sick. he received puzzling moderation, to say the least. it took 35, 40 minutes of the debate last night before we had any discussion of january 6th, before we had any discussion of the 2020 election. donald trump was never pressed as to whether or not he believed he won that election or not. >> hey, why is that, jonathan? >> 45 minutes or more -- >> i know we have a delay, but forgive me. there was a president -- there is a candidate for president and a former president on the stage that tried to -- >> to overthrow democracy. >> that tried to overthrow american democracy. lied about that. lied repeatedly about a stolen election despite the fact that 63 federal decisions went against him, despite the fact, as he would say, his own supreme court went against him. and we're sitting there for 40, 45 minutes, and the question is not even asked. why? >> if i had been moderating the debate, that would have been the first question, who do you believe won the 2020 election? cnn, previously, has been intimidated by donald trump and his allies. we saw how the town hall went a year ago. yesterday, they made a point of saying before the debate, we're not going to be fact checking in real time. they did some later, which i know we'll get to, but they didn't do any in real time. that was certainly to trump's advantage. it almost seemed like they didn't want him to seem like a different candidate. they treated the two men differently. in these stakes, donald trump is a different candidate. do it by the facts. he's the one who has been criminally convicted. he was impeached twice. he inspired an insurrection. it is not bias to simply say those things or ask questions about them, yet, that did not happen. also the format with the make ro microphones, though it was a biden campaign suggestion, it forced trump to be more muted and disciplined. he couldn't jump in. by trump not jumping in, that made biden just have to finish his answers. as we saw, he really trailed off a few times. he would have benefitted, frankly, from trump jumping in and the two men going back and forth. biden could have flashed a little temper, like he did four years ago when he told trump to shut up. those are things that changed, perhaps, the outcome of last night's debate. to claire's point, joe and mika, the questions now are burning, burning among democrats, as to what joe biden can do to correct this or what can be done to change the name at the top of the ticket. >> unlike claire, i think it is absolutely possible to correct this. i do think that, you know, people are -- moments are fleeting. tv can be vapor when the next moment arrives and you have a moment of strength or humor or a lot of different things. if he gets better and if he is okay, and i think that's a fair question to ask, is he okay, but i think it can be done. i really do. it's been done before. cnn's daniel dale is one of the best in the business at fact checking donald trump. after the debate, he ticked through all of the lies the former president told throughout the night. take a look. >> what stood out was the staggering number of false claims from former president trump. on first count, i counted at least 30, 30 false claims. he said some democratic states allow people to execute babies after birth. egregious lie that is illegal in every state. he said everybody, even democrats, wanted roe v. wade overturned. roe was supported by two-thirds of americans, even more democrats. he said every legal scholar wanted roe overturned, abortion returned to the states. legal scholars told me directly this is not true. he said the u.s. currently has the biggest budget deficit ever. no, that happened under trump in 2020. he said the u.s. currently has a record trade deficit with china. also happened under trump in 2018. he said biden personally gets a lot of money from china. zero evidence of this. he said there were no terror attacks during his presidency. in fact, there were multiple attacks. he said iran didn't fund ha ras, hezbollah, other terror groups under his presidency. iran, in fact, did. he said biden wants to quadruple people's taxes, pure fiction. said the u.s. provided way more aid to ukraine than europe had. it's the opposite. he said the u.s. has provided about $200 billion in ukraine aid. it's closer to $110 billion. he said 18 or 19 million people crossed the border under president, millions too high. he said many are from prisons or mental institutions. his own campaign can't corroborate this. said biden creates jobs for illegal immigrants. nonsense. pelosi turned down his offer of 10,000 national guard troops on january 6th. no evidence she got the offer. he said pelosi acknowledges she turned down the troops. no, her office tells me the claim is still a lie. he said he deployed the national guard to minneapolis in 2020. actually, that was the democratic governor. he spoke of ridiculous fraud in the 2020 election. zero evidence of any widespread fraud. he said nato was going out of business before he took office, completely, clearly absurd. he said the u.s. was paying 100% of nato before he came along. the u.s. made up 71% of nato defense spending, not 100. he, not biden, he said lowered insulin prices in medicare. he did it for some seniors but biden did it for far more. biden indicted him. no evidence biden had a personal role in any of the prosecutions. he said europe takes no u.s. cars, which is not true. he spoke of food prices quadrupling under biden. they are up but a wild exaggeration. he said biden made up the fact he called dead service members suckers and losers. no, john kelly corroborated it. he said biden called black people super predators for ten years. biden never deployed the phrase. he once spoke of predators without speaking about black people. he said his tax cut was the largest in history. not true. in fairness, biden also said this. he said china stopped buying from iran. never stopped. he said he signed the veterans choice program into law. barack obama did it in 2014. trump signed an expanded version in 2018. trump said biden got rid of the veterans program. biden has not done that. >> reverend al, that was remarkable. >> pretty good. >> a lot of lies. >> remarkable job of counting all the lies and, yet, the question that hangs out there is, why didn't joe biden do that? why didn't joe biden respond to the lies in real time? why wasn't joe biden able to take the incoming and respond back and push him back? i can tell you, barack obama could have done it. mitt romney could have done it. john mccain could have done it. you know, george w. bush could have done it. i can go back. bill clinton. my god. >> um -- >> they all could have done it. >> a few of those people could have done it, not all of the people. >> no, no. >> it is not that easy to respond to a firehose of falsehoods coming at you. >> all right. >> look, i'm not defending it. >> all right. >> definitely, the lies should have been called out, many of them. rev? >> by the way, he didn't even bring up that donald trump said he spoke to vladimir putin about vladimir putin's dream. >> i agree with that. >> dream of invading ukraine. joe biden let it pass. rev, your thoughts? >> i think as much as i was disappointed to devastated by joe biden's performance last night, the real issue this morning is not what is going to happen to joe biden. the question is what's going to happen to us as a country. this man, donald trump, unrepentant for what he did in terms of trying to of throw the government, totally advocating last night to continuing to take away women's rights to choice and openly advocating for state's rights, which had my mother wish she could use a bathroom in her native alabama because the state upheld segregation rights. once you go down the road of states rights, it's going to not only affect women's right to choice, which is disastrous, it'll affect blacks, latinos, and everything. a man that blamed everything about people coming across the border, and certainly we need to deal with the border, but a lot of what is going on, including his mismanagement of covid, had nothing to do with somebody coming over the border. it is a real decision we're going to have to make on who is going to stop this man. if donald trump becomes president, all of that becomes in effect. let me remind people, this whole news cycle is not over. the supreme court could drop some decisions today that further robs us of certain things. we've got a rough road ahead between the supreme court and then the sentening of the first former president of the united states. i think we need to not just talk about joe biden's future. he's earned that consideration. it ought to be his decision, but the priority must be what is the future direction of this country. if joe biden is the man i think he is, he will make his mind up based on what will happen to the future of the country. he should not go down in history as one that saved it and then put it in jeopardy. if he is up to it, go for it. i think people should go with him. but if he's not, he's earned the right to say, i've done the best i can. either way, many of us respect him, but this is what is at stake. not joe biden's future, our future. >> michael besbeschloss, we oft talk about the stakes of the presidential debates. sometimes they matter. sometimes they don't. after the performance last night, i heard some people with some background in presidential history suggesting this was as consequential as anything they could remember since 1960, perhaps, the kennedy/nixon debate. how about for you? where does this sit in american history? >> well, i think, you know, i spent yesterday before this happened saying that, you know, one glitch in a debate can change history, as it did with gerald ford in 1976, saying that there was no soviet domination of eastern europe. he kicked away his advantage as president against a one-term governor of georgia, jimmy carter, who won the election very narrowly. ford probably would have been elected without saying that one thing. you know, willie, one way to look at this is history. this is a case of a president running for re-election with big doubts about his health. that's happened before now three times in the last eight years. i'll do it quickly. 1944, fdr was running during world war ii for a fourth term. there were questions raised about his health. in those days, there was not the kind of coverage that a president now gets, and there were not debates. roosevelt dealt with it by riding in an open car through all five boroughs of new york in a driving rain for about 50 miles. people said, well, if he can make it through that, he probably can be president. as it turns out, he was sicker than people knew. 1956, eisenhower had a massive heart attack and illitis surgery seven weeks before the republican convention. this is the lesson i think we should look at. eisenhower said, you know, if i can't be president, i should pull out. to show americans i can be president, he told his doctors and his white house staff to put out as much information about his health as possible, and people were convinced by that. that's a very good lesson for joe biden today. finally, very quickly, 1984, 40 years ago, ronald reagan at the age of 73 was running for re-election. that famous, halting debate performance in that first debate, a lot of people said, you know, there's a problem here. walter mondale, his opponent, walked off the stage and said to one of his aides, who told this to me, he said, "i couldn't believe it, reagan is gone." then the second debate, he made a joke about it, and it helped to clear the air. in retrospect, the record is mixed. george jost, the secretary of state, told me during a meeting with gorbachev, soviet union 1987, he pulled reagan out and said, you're not handling this mee meeting. if you don't do better, i'm not letting you go back in there. there is a question. final point, when you have a president about whom there are these kind of questions, the best thing is when the white house says, all right, we're confident in our president, we will give you every bit of information we've got to show you that he not only is functional now but can serve for four more years. >> donny, you more that be anyone here at this small table know this is a visual nation. i mean, we see things on tv. we have no idea right now how many people watched the debate. we have no idea how many people tuned the debate out after watching it for 10, 12, or 15 minutes last night. we don't know the impact really yet. we'll find out. but what reverend al said is so critical to understanding the importance of last night. this is about us. this election is about people in the united states of america and people around the world. the next president of the united states might have the opportunity to appoint two, maybe three supreme court justices, things like that. you watched the debate last night. you're a visual guy. that was your medium, running an ad agency. what was your take? >> look, all we have is the truth. that's what our side has. we keep talking about donald trump lies and lies and lies. if the truth be told, i do not believe that joe biden, a great man, a hero, ten times the man donald trump is, i don't believe he is our best choice at this point. it's all on the line. democracy is on the line. who we are is on the line. a woman's right to choose her body is on the line. our ability to vote freely is on the line. joe biden is an american hero. i believe joe biden will do the right thing. if you're saying to me, how do you solve this problem? i -- it just pains me, but i don't believe he is the right man right now. i don't know what you do to turn that around. we always talk about a referendum, you know, if it is a referendum on the incumbent, you lose. from here on in, the referendum, unfortunately, is not going to be on donald trump's lies. it'll be on joe biden's age and ability to governor. can he govern? yes. do people believe he can govern? i don't believe you can turn that around at this point. in crisis management, and we're in a crisis now, truth and honesty, looking and saying, what is our situation and doing it honestly. we have truth on our side. let's be truthful and look hard at this situation. >> michael beschloss. >> yeah, we should. definitely should. >> would you like to say something before we go to michael? >> absolutely. there needs to be balance here. i mean, mike barnicle said joe biden, you know, in a way, failed last night in many ways, but this is about us. if you look at joe biden as the candidate right now who had a horrible night last night, in a way, he reflects us much more than the other candidate. with his flaws, even frailties he showed last night, but the ability to stand on the world stage a week ago and garner the respect of the world. everyone is focused on last night. we will see how last night plays out. if this continues, there's a problem. but it should not leave us speechless, thinking this is over. especially given the alternative. and the lack of fitness that he repeatedly shows on a loop 24/7 but is validated or ignored, depending on what you're watching. >> claire mccaskill, because the lies are so obvious, because the danger is so obvious, it makes the indictment against joe biden's abilities last night all the greater. the fact that this race is tied right now is in and of itself something that could be seen as an indictment against this campaign. >> yeah. you know, all of us on this program many times and across our network have talked about how could it be possible that half of this country is for donald trump? they all know the kind of man he is. they know he wouldn't know the truth if it hit him upside the head. most americans understand who this guy is, and they still are for him. so if you're in an even race, and i'm being charitable in some ways because the race, especially in the battleground states, it's been a while since biden has had anything close to a more than one or two-point margin in any of those states, you know, now, it is about -- when i talk to people at the grocery store, when i just run into people that were acquaintances of mine that don't spend time looking at this, the first thing they say to me, is he okay? is he okay? so last night, they probably tuned in to see if he was okay. they watched the first 15 minutes, and they went away from that convinced he is not okay. now, listen, i'm not saying it's not possible that a rehabilitation could happen. i'm saying the damage that was done last night makes donald trump as the next president of the united states much more likely. i don't know that we can sit still and stand for that. we have got to do whatever it takes to stop donald trump. that means our party has to do some hard stuff right now. and, listen, we've said over and over again, this will not take away from who joe biden is. and i hope that reverend al is right. i hope that there is introspection, honest introspection in the white house, and that joe biden realizes this would be the right thing to do for our country. if he figures that out right now, i think he will do the right thing. that's who he is as a man. that's why we all adore him. >> michael beschloss, it happens so rarely, though. that lbj moment in march of 1968. >> sure. >> the president has his party's nomination, most likely, in his grasp. very few men or women have ever walked away from that. it doesn't seem likely that joe biden would even consider that, if you look at history as a guide. >> well, in lbj's case, i hate to keep on bringing these people out of history, but i got to know lady johnson well. i said, why did lbj pull out at almost the last minute, march 31, 1968? he said, lyndon had major heart problems as well as other physical problems that are gi related. he promised me that he would pull out after one term and not run in 1968, and i held him to that promise. so here's a case where a president did say, would love to be president for another term, but i can't do it. also, in the atmosphere of 1968, i cannot unite the country. i think in the case of joe biden, the burden after last night is on joe biden to show that he can run this year, that he can defeat donald trump, and that he can serve effectively and with full health for the next four years. so the next couple of days, any information, any evidence that he or his doctors, the white house staff have, this is the time to share it with the public, in the same way that eisenhower did after his two maladies in 1956. >> all right. nbc news presidential historian michael beschloss, thank you very much for being on this morning. former u.s. senator claire mccaskill, thank you, as well. we really appreciate it. still ahead on "morning joe," donald trump and joe biden last night sparred over roe v. wade just hours after the supreme court's ruling on emergency abortions in idaho. we'll discuss that decision from the high court, and we'll go over yesterday's ruling by the federal judge overseeing donald trump's classified documents case that will likely further delay that trial. before we go to break, willie, we need a palate cleanser. we need to cheer up. i mean, i'm good. i'm good. but everyone else needs to cheer up. what do you have planned for "sunday today"? >> yeah, a little bit of a break from the politics on sunday mornings. this weekend, i've got a great conversation with one of the hottest and best artists in all of music right now. lainey wilson. she won a grammy award for best country album. she is the acm and cma entertainer of the year. she's blown up after a long road. 13 years in nashville, now having her moment as one of the most popular artists in all of music. comes from a town of 200 people in baskin, louisiana, now on top of the music world. lainey wilson, coming up this weekend over on nbc "sunday today." we'll be right back here on "morning joe." slowing my cancer from growing and living longer are two things i want from my metastatic breast cancer treatment. and with kisqali, i can have both. kisqali is a pill that when taken with an aromatase inhibitor helps delay cancer from growing and has been proven to help people live significantly longer across three separate clinical trials. so, i have the confidence to live my life. kisqali can cause lung problems or an abnormal heartbeat, which can lead to death. it can cause serious skin reactions, liver problems, and low white blood cell counts that may result in severe infections. avoid grapefruit during treatment. tell your doctor right away if you have 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reporter: this morning, the battle over who can get an abortion and when marches on. the supreme court clearing the way for women in idaho to receive abortions when their health is in jeopardy. for now. sidestepping a more conclusive decision on precisely what care doctors must provide going forward. >> i think it puts us back in this holding pattern of uncertainty, so we can provide emergency care for stabilization in idaho for women, but we don't have the reassurance that emtala is the law of the land. >> reporter: emtala shorthand for the law that requires hospitals to protect a woman's health. idaho and six other states only allow abortion to save a woman's life. >> we'll litigate it rigorously. >> reporter: the justices punting the issue of who wins to the lower courts for now. in a brief, unexplained opinion, identical to the one mistakenly posted online thursday, justice alito and justice jackson blasting their colleagues for refusing to tackle the merits of the issue. alito saying they were swayed by the, quote, emotional and highly politicized nature of the issue. jackson writing, as long as we refuse to declare what the law requires, pregnant patients in idaho, texas, and elsewhere will be paying the price. all this as the high court wades into another closely-watched battle. a multi-billion dollar bankruptcy plan involving purdue pharma, maker of oxycontin. that deal thrown into uncertainty now that the justices found the plan would have shielded the sackler family from liability. it also means billions of dollars secured for victims could now be threatened. >> nbc's laura jarrett with that report. joining us now, former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst joyce vance. she is co-host of "the sisters in law" podcast. thanks for being on this morning, joyce. i want to jump to the one ruling that we still have yet to hear from, and that is on immunity. are they saving it for last? are they saing it for the fourth of july week? what's going on, do you think? >> looks like this will be one of the last cases we hear from the court about. of course, they'll be announcing decisions this morning at 10:00 eastern, again on monday. we don't know for certain whether monday is the last day. the court is down to, depending on how you count, six or eight cases. there are two cases where they're companion cases, so that could mean the court has two fewer opinions to release. look, mika, at this point, i think we have to assume the justices are still struggling to either put the finishing touches on the arguments in the immunity case or to decide what the final vote count will be, who will be in the majority and who will be in the dissent. the chief justice, of course, will want this to be as close to unanimous as possible. >> given you said that, that it looks like either they're still debating it or they're still debating how to fine tune what the opinion looks like, does that concern you? i mean, what's the question at stake, and what is difficult about the question? >> well, look, i think we should all be concerned that the court has taken months to tell us whether or not a president, a former president, is entitled to immunity from criminal prosecution when he tried to overthrow the outcome of an election that he lost. every court that considered it confirmed that he lost. this should have been an easier case. it should have been a quicker case. this court wasn't able to act with the nimbleness that the court acted with in the 2000 election case or with richard nixon and overturning the -- turning the tapes over to prosecutors. this is the sort of case where we expect the supreme court to rule decisively and quickly. they have not been up to the challenge in this case. >> another case actually not at the supreme court right now that seems to be delayed a lot in ways that i question, and i'd love to now from you with expertise, the classified documents trial in florida and judge cannon's decisions that are ultimately amounting to more delays. what's going on in that case? >> well, the kindest read of this situation is that this is a judge who is overwhelmed by the backlog of motions she has to decide in this case. at this point, there are literally so many undecided motions that the parties have raised that you need a spreadsheet to keep track of them. you simply can't keep them all in mind. her rulings have been slow and unnecessarily delayed. what's happened this week is a great example of that. she's got motions that have been fully briefed and argued in front of her. one of them is the prosecution's motion to change donald trump's conditions of pretrial release, so that he can't continue to spread this lie that he's been perpetuating, saying the fbi was trying to assassinate him when they executed the search warrant at mar-a-lago. even trump's own lawyer was forced to concede in court this week that that simply wasn't the case. that standard language was included in the ops briefing and in the documents surrounding the mar-a-lago search warrant, and nothing unusual, no efforts on donald trump's life or anything nefarious like that was at issue. instead of issuing a ruling just deciding one way or the other, judge cannon asked the parties to give her more briefs again. now, jack smith has complied with that. he's given her a document, and the extent of his instances where donald trump has made comments that have endangered court personnel, prosecutors, parties, witnesses, just the list of itself runs to five full pages. look, the judge has plenty of information in front of her. the job that every federal judge has and every state court judge has is to make a decision. she seems to be incapable of doing that, perhaps because, at least in this matter, as soon as she does, the party that loses will take her decision to the 11th circuit court of appeals for appellate review. she seems to be very shy about letting any more of her decisions go there. she's had two very bad outings in front of that court. >> we will see, and we will be kate waiing about two hours from now. perhaps historic decisions to be coming down from the supreme court. legal analyst joyce vance, thank you. let's bring in the democratic governor of pennsylvania, josh shapiro. a member of the biden/harris campaign's national advisory board. good to have you with us this morning. as we've been discussing the last couple hours, even some of president biden's strongest supporters, people who have stood with him throughout his career, have been critical of his debate performance last night. what's your assessment of what you saw? >> look, i think joe biden had a bad debate night, but it doesn't change the fact that donald trump was a bad president. a bad president who ripped away our freedoms. a bad president who drove our economy into the ditch. a bad president who exacerbated the problems of climate change. and a guy who stood on the stage last night and not only lied about his past but lied about the kinds of things he's proposing for the future. that's what i took away from this debate. that's what i saw. i think we still have a clear contrast in this race. nothing about the debate changed that last night. nothing about the debate changed the fact that women in this country have to worry if they give the keys to the white house to donald trump again. nothing about the debate last night changed the fact that the middle class is screwed if donald trump is put in charge again. so i think the clear contrast continues in this race, and i think what we need to to now is continue to go out and prosecute that case against donald trump. >> yeah, as we cataloged all morning, he lied from start to finish, donald trump, about his the economy, about his role in january 6th, but what the concern comes from from democrats is exactly that, of how high the stakes are, and the democrats must win this election to prevent donald trump they say from becoming president again, and implementing perhaps an even harsher regime, an even harsher list of policy goals than he had in his first time around. so are you more concerned than you were 24 hours ago that joe biden is up to that job? >> well, i would just say, democrats, stop worrying and start working. we all have a responsibility here to do our part, and i've said on this show before, and i've said many times, while this election is a binary choice between joe biden and donald trump, this election really is more of a reflection upon all of us and what kind of country we want to build for ourselves, whether we want to go backwards to the dark times that donald trump has promised or whether we want to continue to try and move forward, to try and build a society that is more fair, more just, to try and continue to build an economy where we are putting people to work, and we were able to accomplish meaningful things. i think we can't lose sight of the fact that this nation, for all the challenges that we have, is moving in the right direction. as i've said before, we are producing more energy than ever before in this nation giving us a level of freedom and independence and national security we never had before. for all the hand-wringing about china, for the first time we're kicking china's butt in a long time, and as i've also said before, we can't lose sight of this fact, that this morning, after people turn off "morning joe" and go to work, more people will go to work this morning in america than ever before. there are contrasting visions, contrasting records, and there is a lot for us to be hopeful for, and there is a lot for us to be proud of in terms of where this nation is headed, but now the task falls to each of us to make sure that we share that case with our friends and neighbors or in my case, with all of you this morning, and we have a responsibility to stop worrying, stop looking backwards, and start working and looking forwards. >> okay. except, governor, people are kind of worried after last night. so you can't -- i mean, i totally get this argument overall, especially given the contrast, but i'm now going to ask you a question given what i've been hearing for the past two hours because you're talking a lot about his accomplishments and there are many, and i personally agree there would be many more if he win the presidency again and he would continue to try to get one of the most important things, women's rights, back, women's health care back. >> right. >> so i understand the stakes, but people are talking right now about joe biden, and whether or not he's okay, and they're asking the question, is he okay? can he do this? can he run this race? they are asking this question in a big way. some are saying he needs to resign from the race. does he need to prove that he's okay, and if he's not should he resign, and someone else take over? >> here's what i'll say. we have had the opportunity to work closely with both the former president and president biden, and you know what? i can tell you joe biden is up to the job. i worked with the former president, and most of the work i had with him -- >> what happened last night? >> -- was when i was in court suing him because he was trying to rip away our fundamental freedoms. the good news is we won, and we defeated him, and when it comes to joe biden, i've acknowledged at the top, he had a bad debate night, but it doesn't change the accomplishments, and it doesn't change the fact that there is a clear contrast between where these two people want to take us in the future of this country. i'm scared of what will happen if donald trump is given the keys to the white house again, and so forgive me, but sitting here and hand-wringing, sitting here and fretting is not the answer. what we got to do is work -- >> i'm not hand-wringing. i'm the one person on the show today that believes in joe biden. i agree with you. i think he had a bad night. >> i mean you no disrespect. >> please, no. let's get at it. i want to get into this, but i need to ask you though, because everyone is talking about what was going on with him. he couldn't finish a thought. he couldn't land an answer and his closing thoughts were even botched. i mean, come on. there are people going, what the hell is going on? it's a fair question given that it's not just a bad night. it's one of the most important nights of this election cycle, and he was terrible. how do people move forward and get a sense that he's going to be okay, that it was just a bad night? >> yeah. >> what needs to happen? >> i don't -- it's hard for me to know if you're talking about joe biden or donald trump. i mean, donald trump had a terrible night. >> i mean, that too. >> the guy's a pathological -- he's a pathological liar. he was talking about how proud he is that he overturned roe v. wade and making up some nonsense about killing babies after they were born. i think anybody that looked at that, looked at donald trump and saw that he couldn't commit himself, again, to accepting the results of the election. anybody who looked at that realized that what he was spouting through the lies was really, really dangerous for our nation. i acknowledged now multiple times, joe biden had a bad debate night and he's got a burden on him to show people that he is still able to move forward in these debates and then make prosecuting the case against donald trump. i believe he can do that. i also believe that we all have a responsibility to help him do that. that's why i'm here talking to you this morning and why i'll continue to talk to the good people of pennsylvania and this nation about the things that we have been able to accomplish with joe biden together. the historic investments in infrastructure, the historic ways we have been able to address the challenges that people are facing all across this nation. we got a lot of work to do, and that's what i intend to do. >> democratic governor of pennsylvania, josh shapiro, thank you. i really appreciate your engaging in this conversation. >> thank you. >> i know it's a tough one. i really appreciate it. thank you. >> thank you. good morning, everybody. thanks. >> yeah. all right. take care. so donny, i mean, i think governor shapiro there was -- i think it's great point. the same question, sometimes you can literally say the same things about donald trump in terms of what happened to joe biden last night, but what this campaign needs to deal with, i personally think they can. i think joe biden can deal with it, but they're going to have to prove that this was just a bad night. they're going to have to prove that he's okay. they're going to have to go through this whole thing all over again, and i think a lot of mistakes were made. 9:00 p.m.? i mean, my god. first of all, also proposing this debate, and actually, i do think that the -- the way the debate was set up backfired. having said that, he had a really bad night and a lot of people are going, what the the hell? >> here's the problem going forward. unfortunately, this is not going to go away. you have donald trump who will be out there now 24/7 banging this drum that joe biden is not up for the job. you're going to have advertising. we can't wish this away. it's out there, and i said -- i'm going to say it again and all i have to say is all we have is the truth and the truth is we cannot -- joe said this earlier. failure is not an option. i used to use those words in business. we can't. joe biden does not give us the best chance to win at this point. >> the question for democrats, if -- if joe biden is able to pull together in the next couple of days and has some good performances, the question for democrats is, do you want to take out the person who has beaten donald trump, who has always won when it matters, who has really lived life and understands wins and losses, and rock bottom and pulling yourself up, or do you want to try someone new right now? do you want to lurch? that's going to be the question. i understand how everyone feels, but i think the hysteria is a little bit -- a little bit over the top at this point. we shall see. donnie deutsche, thank you very much. we continue our analysis of last night's debate and where the campaigns go from here. among our many guests ahead will be former white house press secretary, jen psaki, princeton university professor, eddie glaad jr., and presidential historian doug brinkley. we're back in two minutes. l historian doug brinkley. we're back in two minutes. . i'm going to do is fix the taxes. we have a thousand trillionaires in america. i mean, billionaires in america. if they just paid 24%, or 25%, either one of those numbers, we can raise $500 billion i should say in a ten-year period. we would be able to wipe out this debt, make sure all the things we need to do, child care, elder care, making sure we continue to strengthen our health care system, making sure that we're able to make every single solitary person eligible for what i've been able to do with the -- with the covid -- excuse me. with dealing with everything we have to do with -- look. if we finally beat medicare. >> and after you rallied your supporters that day, some of them stormed the capitol to stop the constitutionally mandated counting of electoral votes. as president, you swore an oath to, quote, preserve, protect, and defend, unquote, the constitution. what do you say to voters who believe that you violated that oath through the action on january 6th? >> i don't think too many believe that, and let me tell you about january 6th. on january 6th,we had a great border, nobody coming through. on january 6th, we were energy-independent. on january 6th, we had the lowest taxes ever. >> what do you say to those voters who believe that you violated your constitutional oath through your actions and action on january 6, 2021, and worry that you'll do it again? >> i didn't say that to anybody. i said peacefully and patriotically, and nancy pelosi, if you just watched the news from two days ago, on tape to her daughter, who's a documentary filmmaker they say, what she's saying, oh, no. it's my responsibility. i was responsible for this because i offered her 10,000 soldiers of national guard and she turned them down. i had virtually nothing to do -- they asked me to go make a speech. >> look. he encouraged those folks to go up on capitol hill. >> what they've done to some people who are so innocent, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. what you have done, how you've destroyed the lives of so many people. >> all right. two moments that in many ways defined last night's debate. donald trump's performance included his usual stream of grievances along with many false and misleading claims. however, as you saw in that first clip, the debate was particularly rough for president biden. concerns about his age, perhaps his biggest weakness according to polls were on display as he struggled through many of his responses speaking with a soft, hoarse voice which his campaign blamed on a cold. good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, june 28th willie we have jonathan lemire, nbc news national affairs analyst, john heilemann. he's also a partner at "puck." they are both at the debate site in atlanta. msnbc contributor, mike barnicle joins us, and pulitzer prize-winning columnist and associate editor of "the washington post" and msnbc political analyst, eugene robinson. it's good to have you all on board. i think we should begin with joe, willie, and me, and get your reflections on the debate last night. >> well, i think i should start by saying without any apologies that i love j biden, and jill and i will gladly debate anybody any time any place anywhere over the issue of whether joe biden has been the most effective president in passing bipartisan legislation, in expanding nato, in responding to the rising threat coming from china, by flexing america's strength around china, by having the strongest economy in the world bar none, the strongest economy actually relative to the rest of the world in 50, 60, 70 years, the strongest dollar in half a century, the strongest military relative to the rest of the world. i would argue and others would argue since 1945. i think his presidency has been an unqualified success. if, however, you believe as do i, and as do so many people who watched this program, and who fear just how dark of a place a second donald trump term will take america, then i think it's critical that we ask the same questions about this man i love, respect, and whose public service in saving this country from donald trump over the last 3 1/2 years i honor and always will. i think we have to ask the same questions of him that we have asked of donald trump since 2016, and that is, if he were ceo and he turned in a performance like that, would any corporation in america, any fortune 500 corporation in america keep him on as ceo? if this were donald trump time and time again, we talked about the goldwater. where is barry goldwater to walk over and tell richard nixon it was over, to tell donald trump it was over, and now the question is do democrats need to do the same thing of joe biden? these -- these are hard questions, but the fact is, friends, failure's just not an option. in 2024, failure is not an option. so who i love, who i respect, who i revere for their work and their duty to service over their lifetime really is not relevant. it's not relevant for any of us. it's not relevant for democratic leaders. it's not relevant for anyone. the question is can -- we know joe biden can govern. >> mm-hmm. >> and again, i'll debate that issue and i will win. i will destroy anybody that wants to debate joe biden's record over the past 3 1/2 years. he can run the white house. he can run the country effectively despite the barrage of lies that constantly come at him like donald trump's lies last night, but can he run for president in 2024? donald trump lied over and over and over and over again, and joe biden couldn't respond to any of those lies. in fact, as "the new york times" said, he spent much of the night with his mouth agape and his eyes darting back and forth. he couldn't fact-check anything donald trump said, and not only that. he missed one layup after another after another. he couldn't respond effectively to donald trump trying to overthrow american democracy on january 6th. he couldn't respond effectively to donald trump's continued stream of lies about his own record, and he couldn't even respond effectively on the issue of abortion where for some reason, he darted wildly to the issue of immigration, and on immigration as i said yesterday morning, any democrat that can't turn to their republican opponent and blast them for killing the strongest, toughest border bill in the history of america drafted by a right-wing senator from oklahoma may not be up to the job, and so that's the question. i know people are waiting and say, oh. and david, i have great respect for him. he said we need to wait three or four days because donald trump really turned off swing voters in a lot of focus groups once they saw him again, and that makes a lot of sense, but the door was open so many times. this race should not be close. we have been asking, why is this race close? we have no idea why this race is close. we saw last night why this race has been close, and why i fear donald trump will be the next president of the united states unless things change, and i will say, mika, the one thing that i know that you believe may have been because he was sick, and i'm open to that fact because i'll just say, as i've said on the show, i spent three hours with this man maybe back in march. three hours, coaching on top of the issues, on top of every issue around the world. and last night, he simply was not on the biggest debate stage ever, and i think what surprised me and what surprised a lot of people very close to joe biden is the fact that this man always rises to the occasion. last night was sadly for him, and i believe for democrats in this country, and again, if you believe what's at stake of this election is what we believe is at stake, i'll even use the word tragically. he tragically did not rise to the occasion last night. >> okay. so as you can see, you won't see us spinning here on "morning joe" at all, but let me tell you what i believe, and then we'll go to willie. biden had a terrible night. he could not land a thought, not even in the closing statement which is something -- that's the easiest part. write down a few words. go through -- go through the thoughts, and while i validate the chaos and hysteria democrats might be feeling, anybody who cares about democracy might be feeling, anybody who cares about women's rights and our safety and our lives might be feeling, totally understand that. at the same time, as the night was over, and i was hearing you on the phone and all our phones were exploding. i just had this gut feeling that i'm not ready to give up on joe biden, not even close. joe biden has lost more in his life than he has won in every way, especially politically. this man has lost and lost and the only time that he wins is when it matters, and that is -- we have proof of that. he has lost in personal ways. he has lost and hit rock bottom in every way possible and every time, he comes back fighting. so for me, watching what happened last night, again, it was terrible. it was terrible. there's no way to spin it. i still wonder what he's going to look like in a week. i wonder if he was sick. he came out on the stage and i thought something was wrong. i still believe he's the best choice for this country even with that performance last night because he was standing next to a man who represents fascism, who doesn't believe in this country, and would not even agree to the results of this election if they were free and fair to him. a man who has incited a riot, a man who tried to overturn the election, a man who's liable of sexual abuse, a man who is a fraudster, a man who is a convicted felon. many times joe biden has hit rock bottom. last night was one of them. i won't jump to conclusions here and jump on the hysteria train. i'm rocked by it. i was really worried, but we really, truly believe in him as a president and as a human being. coming up, we have to take a quick break, but we're going to continue this conversation with willie's thoughts next. we're back in 90 seconds with that. 's thoughts next we're back in 90 seconds with that liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with all the money i saved i thought i'd buy stilts. being so tall definitely has its advantages. oh whoa. here you go, kiddo. thanks. hi honey ready to go? yup. there it is, there it is... ahhh...here we go. i guess it also has some disadvantages. yes it does. only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty, liberty.♪ i will -- i will say, willie, that for me, i have been in politics long enough and i have been around politics long enough to know that often, time doesn't heal all wounds, and if this debate does not lead to serious discussions between democrats and the president, then what you end up having is sort of this frozen political situation where democrats didn't start convincing themselves, 2, 3, 5, 10 days out that the guy in power, that the people closest to power will suddenly, you know, they'll start spinning and they'll believe their spin. so i don't believe it's panic. i'm the first one -- we talk about democratic bedwetting. that is not this. this is -- this is like a war. we see a political battle for democracy, and this is, like, this is, like, losing a major battle. is it panic after a war where a major battle is lost to say, this general -- we don't know if this general is up to leading the troops the rest of the way, but i mean, again, these are just things that democrats are going to have to answer over the next couple of days. i'm curious, your thoughts. >> yeah. we'll talk a lot about the substance over the next few hours of the show, about last night. donald trump did what he does. he lied. he lied about having the greatest economy in the history of the world. he didn't, of course. he lied about his role in january 6th. he lied about immigration, what happened during his administration. he lied and he lied and he lied. that's all true. the problem is the american people were watching to see if joe biden in this moment -- we talked yesterday about how people have tuned this out and they will tune in at two, three, four big moments. last night was one of those. to see if he was up to the job, and the resounding answer last night anyway, was no, and it happened within the first 10, 12, 15 minutes, and there's been a lot of talk in the last 12 hours about how elected officials, democrats, insiders, campaign strategists, people who also have to run on the ballot this fall, worry that they're going to lose if joe biden's on the ballot, and also donors that they're concerned. i think the bigger problem is that's all a conversation we'll have in a minute and what that means. the bigger problem is that regular people, people who don't watch cable news every day, people who are not on twitter, people who don't absorb politics the way we do, they watch last night and said, my god, i don't think he's up to this. they did tune in last night. >> right. >> many of them, democrats hoping for the best, and instead their worst fears were confirmed, and i, like you guys, i heard kamala harris' name a lot last night. i heard gavin newsom's name. i heard josh shapiro's name, wes moore's name. people who desperately want what you just heard, to prevent donald trump from being in the white house again. last night becoming convinced and maybe their minds can be changed, but it didn't feel like it last night, that joe biden now cannot beat donald trump. that is the message not just from party insiders, but from regular people who will decide the election. >> well, and the thing is, mika, this is not because -- i don't think any democrat would want anything to be about power or about personality or about a personality cult. none of this is personal. i remember telling newt gingrich when he was shocked that we were voting to remove him as speaker. i said, this is nothing personal. if we believe in what we believe, i would do this to my mother. i would do this to my mother if i believed she was standing in the way of our goals, and in this case, we were talking about a balanced budget and smaller and more effective government back then. now we're talking about, mike barnicle, democracy, and again, i'm not saying that everything happens today and maybe we wait a week. i'm just saying personal feelings, personal feelings, personal admiration, love, respect, honor, all the things i talked about in my feelings about joe biden, jill biden, and their family, that mika and her family have felt about joe biden for 50 years, that i've felt for as long as i've known him, that you've felt about joe biden. that cannot play a role in any of this. this has a battle for the future of american democracy. now is a time in june -- thank god, in june, and not october. in june, this is a last chance for democrats to decide whether this man we've known and loved for a very long time is up to the task of running for president of the united states. your thoughts, mike? >> yeah, you know, it would be hard to be more insightful than what we've heard from you and mika and willie in the last 15 minutes about last night. watching last night, i was reminded of a friendship i had for a long time with the late kenny o'donnell who was then technically chief of staff to john f. kennedy, and kenny used to say that the primary job of the chief of staff or anyone that close to the presidency was to tell the president the bad news. well, we now know what the bad news was from last night. joe biden had an awful night, a terrible night, and going forward, it's going to be up to -- i mean, my phone like mika's phone, like everyone's phone, was filled last night with messages from the donor class, people indicating they were crying watching the thing, people upset because of what they perceive to be joe's really, really bad night visually, and it's such a visual thing, the tv, and the mouth agape quote from the "new york times," all accurate, all true, and people indicating to me on the phone, messages and phone calls that they felt badly for him. unfortunately, nobody votes for president of the united states because they feel badly for someone. elections as you just indicated, joe, are about the future, and the panic is now in full bloom i assume among the democratic people who put together these tickets who vote for delegates and go to the convention. full-blown panic. there's no doubt about that. the interesting aspect, and it's the only perhaps hopeful aspect of all this is what are the polls going to show on sunday or monday, an in-depth poll about finally, you know, you saw donald trump for fully an hour and a half lying about every single issue that impacts people's lives, lying about abortion, lying about taxes, lying about the economy, just full-blown lies, and unfortunately last night, president biden let every fastball hanging out over the plate go right by. we're going to take another pause, and then gene robinson, we'll get your thoughts on joe biden's performance. that's next. we'll be right back. biden's per. that's next. we'll be right back. —okay. —so, what about $574 for switching your home insurance to allstate? 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[ meow ] you used to be a master villain. you're gonna help me pull a heist. is that my old school? which i have modeled with glue and popsicle sticks. i'm born to be bad. [ evil laughter ] no offense, but you're not me. i plan on being a lot better than you. ever hear of respecting your elders? i don't respect boomers. i just mock them. gene robinson, biden will hear the bad news. >> yeah. >> and knows joe biden, he has tremendous perspective. he will take it hard, and he will also know how to manage through it. what i'm talking about when it comes to balance, and i'm wondering what your thoughts are here, in this media landscape that we are living in, not on this show, but in the media landscape that we have to join, and many of them are pro-trump networks or whatever, donald trump has had a thousand days where he has said something, done something, said many things, including last night where he appears to be completely unfit for office, completely oblivious of what the office entails, of what service means, and is out for himself. joe biden had a horrible night. that's all i'm saying. >> yeah. >> gene? >> no. yeah. joe biden had a horrible night, absolutely, at a very, very bad time. as joe said, it is -- it is fortunate for the democratic party that this happened in june and not in september or october because if it had happened in september or october, i believe it would have guaranteed the election of donald trump to another term as president, and i think that would be disastrous for the country. you know, we have seen incumbent presidents blow the first debate before, but, you know, there was a big difference between those earlier examples and last night. in 2012 in denver, barack obama blew the debate against mitt romney and, yes, there was concern, and yes there was bedwetting, but going into that debate, nobody thought barack obama was lackadaisical and uninformed. they just thought, yeah. he had a bad night. going into last night's debate, a lot of people rightly or wrongly, thought joe biden was too old and feeble to have another four-year term as president, and he came out last night and he -- he didn't dispel that impression as i expected him to, but he reinforced it, and that is a real problem. that is a real problem. so my question is, yes. absolutely, mika, there should be no rush to anything. let's see how this develops over the next few days, but let's start thinking, or i believe democrats should start thinking seriously and concretely about scenarios, about whether joe biden can indeed run for president. as joe said, we know he can be president. he has been an excellent president. i have never seen biden like he was last night. joe, you talked about your three hours with him. i haven't spent that much time with him recently, but the times i have spent with him, that wasn't the joe biden that i saw last night. but joe biden -- >> do you know who else said that? you know that it was kevin mccarthy despite his -- >> right. >> what he said to the "wall street journal," when he contradicted himself. >> mm-hmm. >> kevin mccarthy's staff, said gene, that repeatedly, he said that joe biden was an effective negotiator and drove the meetings. >> absolutely. >> and so -- and so not just the meetings, it's like republicans that were in negotiations. there's a reason why he passed more bipartisan legislation than a president in a generation, but go ahead, gene. >> well, no. but the question is how do you unring that well that was rung last night, and that is -- that is my question. how do you sort of take that back? i don't know. maybe -- maybe, again, time and events, and donald trump can certainly reshape this race in all kinds of ways that might be favorable to joe biden, but that was a really, really bad and significantly bad night, i think because it reinforced what -- what is biden's biggest weakness, and that's a -- that is a problem for, you know, in running for president. it's not a problem in being president, but it's a problem in running for president in this very, very tight race where everything is at stake, and so do some concrete thinking here. >> jonathan lemire and john heilemann are down in atlanta, the site of last night's debate. jonathan lemire, i'll start with you. let's remember that the biden campaign was the one that introduced the idea of this debate, of this early debate with this format under these terms so that they could sort of reset for the american people and establish that joe biden was up for the job. that was the point of this debate and the consensus is that he failed at that last night. i'll say again what we said at the top of the show. donald trump lied for 90 minutes. we'll go through all of it, chapter and verse, about january 6th, about the economy, about immigration, about covid, and we could go over all of that. that's all true, but that is not what people will remember coming out of last night. so what are you hearing? you were there last night talking to officials, talking to people down in the room after the debate. what are you hearing about last night, and about what may happen from here? >> well, let's start here. the stakes of this election couldn't be higher, and the loudest voice saying that has been the biden campaign saying democracy itself is on the ballot, and they looked at this race. they saw a frozen race, a very static race and to your point, willie, they're the ones who wanted this early debate. they felt like they needed to grab americans' attention, tell them, this is your choice. it's biden and it's trump. you might not be happy about it, but here's where we are. listen to donald trump. let's remind you of why another four years of him would be so disastrous to this country, and they knew the bar that they had to clear was about joe biden's age and competency for the job. he cleared in the state of the union. he did not clear it last night. every aide that i've spoken to, democrats are deeply worried about what they saw from the president. yes, trump lied. we will get into that, but the fundamentals here last night was that president biden did not answer the bell. so i was here last night in atlanta. democrats scrambling. we had aides, about 45 minutes into the debate, suddenly blasting reporters' text messages, telling us for the first time that president biden had a cold, and that was explaining why he wasn't doing well. he pointed to his rally in north carolina later today saying that will be a moment where he does do better. we had moments after the debate, here in the spin room on the campus of georgia tech university, republicans, the trump surrogates were out instantly and wanted to talk to anybody they could about how well their guy did last night. we had to wait 15, 20 minutes for anybody from the biden campaign to show up, and when te did, they were subdued. gavin newsom, the california governor was flatout asked if he would perhaps be the democratic nominee instead of joe biden. he, of course, said no. he said he stood with president biden. >> coming up, there are thoughts on last night's debate. we'll show you what john stewart had to say. that's next on "morning joe." you will not want to miss this. . you will not want to miss this tamra, izzy and emma... they respond to emails with phone-calls... and they don't "circle back" they're already there. they wear business sneakers and pad their keyboards with something that makes their clickety- clacking... clickety-clackier. but no one loves logistics as much as they do. you need tamra, izzy and emma. they need a retirement plan. work with principal so we can help you with a retirement and benefits plan that's right for your team. let our expertise round out yours. smile! you found it. the feeling of finding psoriasis can't filter out the real you. so go ahead, live unfiltered with the one and only sotyktu, a once-daily pill for moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, and the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding you're so ready for your close-up. or finding you don't have to hide your skin just your background. once-daily sotyktu was proven better, getting more people clearer skin than the leading pill. don't take if you're allergic to sotyktu; serious reactions can occur. sotyktu can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections, cancers including lymphoma, muscle problems, and changes in certain labs have occurred. tell your doctor if you have an infection, liver or kidney problems, high triglycerides, or had a vaccine or plan to. sotyktu is a tyk2 inhibitor. tyk2 is part of the jak family. it's not known if sotyktu has the same risks as jak inhibitors. find what plaque psoriasis has been hiding. there's only one sotyktu, so ask for it by name. so clearly you. sotyktu. ( ♪ ♪ ) start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. it's ridiculous. we have a debate. we're trying to justify his presidency. his presidency's -- he's without question, the worst president -- the worst presidency in the history of our country. we shouldn't be having a debate about it. there's nothing to debate. >> the worst president in history? 159 presidential scholars voted him the worst president in history of the united states of america. he was standing with his four-star general and he said, i don't want to go in there because they were a bunch of losers and suckers. my son was not a loser. you're the sucker. you are the loser. >> he made that up. he should apologize to me right now. >> the idea that i have to apologize to you for anything along the lines -- we've done more for veterans than any president has in american history. there are 40% fewer coming across the border illegally, and it's better he left office and we'll continue to move until we get the total ban -- the total initiative relative to what we're going to do relative to border patrol and more asylum officers. >> president trump? >> i really don't know what he said at the end of that sentence, but i don't think he knows what he said either. >> the only person on the stage that's a convicted felon is the man i'm looking at right now. >> when he talks about a convicted felon, his son is a convicted felon at a very high level. his son is convicted. >> how many billions of dollars do you owe in civil penalties for molesting a woman in public? for doing a whole range of things? of having sex with a porn star on the night -- while your wife was pregnant? i mean, what are you talking about? you have the morals of an alley cat. >> sir? >> i didn't have sex with a porn star. >> i'm happy to play golf if you carry your own bag. you think you can do that? >> i've seen you sweat. >> president trump, we're going to turn -- >> let's not act like children. >> you are a child. >> will you accept the results of the election regardless of who wins, yes or no please? >> if it's a fair and legal and good election, absolutely. >> i doubt that you'll except it because you're such a whiner. the idea that if you lose again, you accept anything, you can't stand the loss. something snapped in you when you lost the last time. >> let me just say after watching tonight's debate -- [ laughter ] both of these men should be using performance-enhancing drugs. i'm sorry. [ applause ] both. as much of it as they can get as many times a day as their bodies will allow. if performance-enhancing drugs will improve their lucidity, their ability to solve problems, and in one of candidates' cases, improve their truthfulness, morality, and malignant narcissism, then suppository away. guess what, everybody? they should be taking whatever magical drugs can kick their brains into gear because this ain't olympic swimming. you know what i'm saying? oh. he solved middle east, but he was doping so it doesn't count. there's going to be an asterisk next to his presidency. and by the way, if those drugs don't exist, if there aren't actually performance-enhancing drugs for these candidates, i could sure [ bleep ] use some recreational ones right now because this cannot be real life. it just can't. [ bleep ]. we're america. god. [ applause ] >> willie, john stewart at john stewart's best. >> wow. >> i will say i've never really cared what, you know, people say. people say, what does the rest of the world think of us? and i thought, well, we're the freest, and we've freed more people, and we've fed more people than anybody on the planet. i will say last night when these two elderly gentlemen were having a back and forth about their golf handicap, i was -- i was so embarrassed that that's the view the world had of our debate for presidency, and of course, you know, there are so many lies that we just played there. i mean -- i mean, he lied, you know, donald trump lied about january the 6th. he lied about stolen election. he -- >> which by the way -- i'm shocked it took so long to get there. i'm shocked that you had one guy up there who was a felon who tried to overthrow the american government, and it took 40, 45 minutes for that issue to even come up. i'm not sure how that happened, but it took 45 minutes, but you -- you have here even the suckers and losers quote. donald trump lying about not saying that. saying that joe biden made it up. no. general john kelly, his longest serving chief of staff -- >> who lost his son. >> who lost his son, i believe in afghanistan told "the atlantic" tha when he was with donald trump. kelly confirmed that trump privately disparaged u.s. service members and veterans and called fallen soldiers suckers and losers during his presidency, willie. that's general kelly who like joe biden, lost a son, and general kelly lost his season at war. >> yeah. i mean, unless you're deep, deep marinated in the maga universe, just ask yourself who do you believe in that story? donald trump or general john kelly who's given his life and service to the country? >> thank you. >> to john stewart's point about the performance-enhancing drugs, joe, i heard a lot of people say last night, i guess we now know that joe biden was not on mountain dew as one congressman alleged he was going to be jacked up on mountain dew, and that was the most tame of things that were introduced as possibilities. clearly not on anything last night. coming up, president biden and former president trump sparred over their economic records last night and blamed each other for america's high inflation. cnbc's andrew ross sorkin joins us with his analysis of the debate straight ahead on "morning joe." ysis of the debate straight ahead on "morning joe." food isn't just fuel to live. it's fuel to grow. my family relied on public assistance to help provide meals for us. these meals fueled my involvement in theater and the arts as a child, which fostered my love for acting. the feeding america network of food banks helps millions of people put food on the table. when people are fed, futures are nourished. join the movement to end hunger and together we can open endless possibilities for people to thrive. visit feedingamerica.org/actnow jonathan lemire, at one point speaking about ukraine, donald trump said after the invasion of ukraine, that he talked to vladimir putin. and let me get the exact quote. when putin saw that, he said, you know what, i think we're going to go in and maybe take me -- this was his dream. i talked to him about it. this is trump saying he talked to vladimir putin about it. his dream. and so that is shocking that donald trump would say that. it's shocking that anybody would say that. and i must say, for democrats, who people who love this country, for people who believe that ukraine needs to be freed from russia, the attacks, the bigger question is, what democrat on stage with donald trump last night would not have stopped and said, wait, wait, hold on, what, did you just say what you talked to vladimir putin after the invasion? and i guarantee you they're going to spin this now. after the invasion of ukraine, vladimir putin confessed to you that it was his dream to invade ukraine? there's so many of those things, jonathan, that donald trump left hanging out there. it wasn't a fastball. it was a ball on the tee. let me just say, that josh shapiro would have hit for a home run. that gavin newsom would have hit for a home run. any democrat would have knocked that out and hit it for a home run. he said, i talked to vladimir putin after the invasion, and he told me it was his dream to invade ukraine. and, yet, that's another pitch that went right down the middle of the plate. >> right past everybody. >> you mentioned nato. president biden tried to ask donald trump if he would stay in nato, and then trump was about to answer and bizarrely cut off by the moderators, who seemed to intent to keep the discussion moving. early on in the debate, he missed opportunity after opportunity. you mentioned how he pivoted from abortion nonsensically to immigration. there was also a moment where he, biden, introduced the concept of afghanistan. the afghanistan withdrawal is one of the darker moments of his term, successful first term, they would say. it was biden himself who brought up afghanistan, allowing trump to hammer him on that. john heilemann, there are moments there, to joe's point, last night when it's hard to imagine any other democrat not rebutting what trump had to say, all the lies. biden wasn't able to. he wasn't able to do it. some close to him will say that's just a bad night, but i think for a lot of democrats who are panic today and a lot of american voters are thinking, maybe this is who he is, should he continue in this job going forward? >> one of the things when we were talking yesterday on the air about what the biden messaging has come down to, what is the frame, and this question about trump only fights for himself, biden is fighting for you, i looked at this last night, 90 minutes on the debate stage, that message you had surrogates saying it, a boiled-down version of it on television on various networks over the course of the run-up to this debate. i defy you to find that message coming out of joe biden's mouth last night. the message was something that the candidate didn't deliver in the course of 90 minutes. coming up, we'll talk to senior advisor of president biden's reelection campaign, adrian elrod. campaign, adrian elrod (bell ringing) someone needs to customize and save hundreds with liberty mutual! (inaudible sounds) (elevator doors opening) wait, there's an elevator? only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, ♪ ♪ liberty. ♪ it's your time to cash in. so don't just play. stay... at northern california's premier casino resort. book your getaway now at cachecreek.com. it's your time to cash in. so don't just play. stay... at northern california's premier casino resort. book your getaway now at cachecreek.com. look folks, what's going to happen over the next couple of days is they're going to be out there fact checking all the things he said. i can't think of one thing he said that was true. no, i'm not being facetious. look, we're going to beat this guy. we need to beat this guy. and i need you in order to beat him. you're the people i'm running for. you are the reason why america is as good as we are. we're the finest nation in the whole damn world. nobody's close. so let's keep going. see you at the next one. >> mr. president, how do you think you performed tonight? >> i think we did well. >> do you have any concerns about your performance? >> no. it's hard to debate a liar. he lied 26 times, big lies. >> welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." that was president biden first speaking to reporters after the debate and then with that answer to reporters about his performance. it was quite a night, i will tell you. nbc news senior washington correspondent hallie jackson takes us inside last night's debate room. >> reporter: on stage in the presidential debate, missteps from the current president and misleading attacks from the previous one. from president biden, who's battling voter concerns about his age, a shaky start. with a raspy voice he seemed to lose his train of thought about the national debt. >> making sure we make every single, solitary eligible for the covid -- dealing with everything we have to do with -- look, if -- we finally beat medicare. >> later, mixing up former president trump's name in a comment about russia before correcting himself. >> if you take a look at what trump did in ukraine, this guy told ukraine -- told trump, do whatever you want. and that's exactly what trump did to putin, encourage him, do whatever you want. >> at the end of the debate, first lady jill biden escorting him off stage. two sources telling nbc news, president biden had a cold. president trump jumping on his slip-ups. >> i don't know what he said. i don't think he knows what he said either. >> trump with lies about the 2020 election, refusing to give a clear answer about whether he would accept the results. >> if it's fair, absolutely. >> i doubt you'll accept it, because you're such a whiner. the only one on the stage that's a convicted felon is the one on stage with me right now. how many billions of dollars do you owe for having sex with a porn star on the night while your wife was pregnant? what are you talking about? you have the morals of an alley cat. >> i didn't have sex with a porn star. >> the president also slamming mr. trump for reportedly calling veterans suckers and loserloser referencing his own late son who served in iraq. >> i'm not a sucker. you're the sucker. >> reporter: downplaying what happened on january 6th in the capitol. >> on january 6th, we were respected all over the world. all over the world we were respected. and he comes in, and we're now laughed at. we're like a bunch of stupid people. >> from the economy -- >> he decimated the economy. >> to abortion access. >> the supreme court just approved the abortion pill, and agree with their decision and i will not block it. >> joe biden on abortion, one of his stronger issues. >> it's like saying we're going to turn civil rights back to the states. there's so many young women, including a young woman who was murdered -- he went to the funeral. the idea that she was murdered by an immigrant coming in, they talk about that. >> afterwards trump's surrogates flooding the spin room to tout what they saw as a decisive win. >> i thought president trump was calm, strong, thoughtful tonight. >> vice president kamala harris hitting the air waves to defend the president. >> there was a slow start, but it was a strong finish. >> multiple democratic lawmakers telling nbc news they're concerned about the president's performance, with some wondering anonymously whether he should remain on the ticket. >> do more, worry less. >> clearly we'll be talking a lot about joe biden's performance last night, his inability to land a thought and put words together sometimes, but also about trump. cnn's daniel dale fact checked all the lies from the former president that he told throughout the night. >> what stood out was the staggering number of false claims from former president trump. i counted at least 30 false claims. he said some democratic states allow doctors to execute babies after birth, an egregious lie. he said every legal scholar wanted roe overturned, abortion returned to the states. legal scholars told me directly this is not true. he said the u.s. currently has the biggest budget deficit ever. no. that happened under trump, 2020. he said biden personally gets a lot of money from china. zero evidence of this. he said there were no terror attacks during his presidency. in fact, there were multiple attacks. he said iran didn't fund hezbollah or hamas during his presidency. they did. he said the u.s. has provided more aid to ukraine than he had. that's the opposite. he said 18 or 19 million people have crossed the border under biden. that is millions too high. he said many migrants are from prisons. his own campaign cannot corroborate this. he said nancy pelosi turned down his offer of 10,000 national guard troops on january 6th. there's no evidence she even got the offer. he said pelosi acknowledges she turned down the troops. that was a lie. he spoke of ridiculous fraud in the 2020 election. zero evidence of any fraud. he said nato was going out of business before he took off, clearly absurd. he said the u.s. was paying 100% of nato before he came along. the u.s. made up about 70% of nato defense spending not 100. he said he lowered insulin. he spoke of food prices quadrupling under biden. that's a wild exaggeration. he said biden made up the idea he called dead soldiers suckers and losers. john kelly corroborated it. he said biden called black people super predators. biden never once deployed that phrase, though he did speak about predators without specifying black people. trump said his tax cut was the largest. not true. trump said china and others stopped buying from iran under him. china never stopped. he said he signed the veteran's choice into law. not true. he said biden got rid of that program. biden has not done that. >> the candidate last night, candidate trump literally has to be fact checked every time he opens his mouth and he's a convicted felon. but how did joe biden do last night? >> he didn't answer any of those lies. he had trouble finishing sentences, had trouble delivering basically the punch lines. everything got jumbled. joe biden, i believe, has been an exceptional president. the economy has grown more. the dollar is stronger than it's been in 50 years. the u.s. economy, jobs, more created at any time than 40 years. nato more stronger than it's been since its creation. you look at what the united states has done around china. there's finally been a pivot to asia. if you know anything about national affairs, you wouldn't lie about china, and you would understand that china feels more hemmed in than ever before because of what joe biden's done in the past three years. he's been a very effective president. he was not a very effective candidate last night and gave a lot of democrats good reason to be concerned that he is up to the task to be president of the united states, but he may not be up to the task of defeating donald trump. >> i think joe biden had a terrible night last night. he also has come back from worse in his life multiple times and he's at his best when everybody counts him out. that has been the pattern with joe biden. willie, what do you think? >> there is the substance we just ran through, which is donald trump began lying and ended the debate lying about anything you could go down the list. he claimed he had the strongest economy in the history of the country. that, of course, is not true. he tried to rewrite the history about how he led the country during the pandemic, covid, all the things he said he did or did not do during that time when more than a million americans died. and he turned january 6th into a conversation about joe biden. as joe's been pointing out, those were the moments when president biden could have stepped in and answered back with facts and pushed back. the fact that in the exchange we just showed there, abortion, a cornerstone issue for this campaign for joe biden, that he kind of went into a rambling answer that took a left turn into immigration, did not bode well for how the night was going to go. there's no sugar coating it. is this panic among democrats and not just donors and elected officials, but among voting democrats, how long does it last? is there something joe biden can do to assure them he's up to this task. if they don't think he is, what's the plan? he's got to step aside, say a lot of people. okay. then what? what comes next? let's continue the conversation with jonathan lemire. joining us now, symone sanders townsend, jen psaki, katty kay doug brinkley and professor at princeton university, eddie gloud jr. jen and symone, i'll start with you. jen, what are your thoughts this morning, and what do you make of some of these calls from people who like joe biden, they think he's a good man who has been a good public servant, that perhaps he does not give democrats the best chance to win in november? >> we're all getting them. i think it's important to acknowledge that. i don't think anybody should sugar coat the debate performance, especially the first half. it was not what the biden campaign wanted or needed out of this debate. they wanted to do this debate early to change up the dynamics, to reassure members of the party who were on the fence that he was strong, that he could punch back at donald trump, that he was exactly the person to be the nominee for this presidential race. they didn't accomplish that last night. i think it's important to state that and acknowledge that. and, also, we're all getting called. people are freaking out. the campaign is going to be consumed the next couple of weeks by that and the management of that. whether it's high-level donors or down-ballot candidates running for office or different interest groups they work with that they need to get across the finish line. it's going to be a very rocky couple of weeks for them. the question is, what now? joe biden needed to do a lot better by more than past presidents have. it's important to remind people -- and we have a historian here -- president obama bombed his first debate, president push bombed his first debate. they still won a second turn. what he needs to do is show strength. he's going to be in north carolina. how does he do at that rally? what are they doing to reassure down-ballot ticket members? i thought the vice president was excellent on television last night. i would put her out everywhere she would go this weekend, as well as a lot of these governors. you need to come back strong and fighting. we don't know what voters think across the country. >> that's the important point. i think jen's point about the voters is the most important point. we are hearing from elected officials, political professionals, operatives, people that are keyed in and know, that expected a better joe biden last night. that is very different than hearing from people inside the president's orbit. i asked the campaign folks last night, is the first lady tapping the president on the shoulder telling him he needs to get out? they're like no. i called up the democratic national committee. i said, are y'all looking for a new nominee? they said no. i had to ask because that is what some people were saying. the performance wasn't great. to the regular folks that were in some of these focus groups watching last night, i am interested to hear what they think, the people who are going to see joe biden at whatever off-the-record stops he does today in north carolina, the people who talk to him in the photo lines, what are they going to say? are they going to say, i don't know if joe biden is all the way there. or, the man i saw today was different than the man i saw on the debate stage last night. we need time to hear those out. i will say this about the elected officials, particularly house democrats. the democrats have an opportunity to really take back the - [narrator] life with ear ringing sounded like a constant train whistle i couldn't escape. then i started taking lipo flavonoid. with 60 years of clinical experience, it's the number one doctor recommended brand for ear ringing. and now i'm finally free. take back control with lipo flavonoid. ♪ ♪ [ speaking minionese ] no. no. no. no. no. no. [ gasps ] [ chuckling ] good job, junior. way to go. [ chuckling ] [ speaking minionese ] . all right. welcome back. president joe biden's poor performance last night is also making international news. the h the hong kong-based "south china morning post" has a headline that reads, quote, trump fans celebrate, biden faithful in despair over debate. the times of india quotes a democrat, who puts it bluntly, quote, we are f'd. and democrats panic as biden just weeks after biden was in france to mark 80 years since d-day, one of the country's leading news organizations writes, quote, biden stumbles, trump lies in first presidential debate of 2024. and in italy, la republica has a headline that translated to quote, biden disaster, democrats like for an alternative. senior spokesperson for the biden/harris 2024 reelection campaign adrienne elrod. let's get into it. those headlines abroad are brutal. anybody watching last night who saw joe biden, who wasn't meetingde the a thought. he couldn't find words. he couldn't even get it togethei in his closing statement. if he watches it again, he would say that. it was a disaster. across the board. having said that, i've also said joe biden has come back from worse. and i expect that he will. but, i'm kind of alone this morning. so, i need to understand how the campaign is looking at this. do they think biden should fight forward, or is there talk of replacing him? >> yeah,g mika, we certainly think he should fight fora, it. the fundamentals of this campaign have not changed. we saw donald trump on the stage last night. s he lied at least 50 times. joe biden is still fighting for the american people. and, you know,biht something th think you're going to hear us talk morehe about today, mika, conducted oura, own research, standard for the presidential campaign, and during that research it showed independents wereow turned off by donald trump's lies, turned off by him lying about january 6th, lying about women's reproductive health, lying about the economy. and independents were breaking were president joe biden when it came to fundamental. he said afterwards i have a sore throat. he went to the waffle house in atlanta after the debate, got somee food. he's on the stump today in north carolina, a big rally there, and he'll be in new york later today. business as usual as far as he's concerned on the campaign.co but, again, when it comes down to perhapsme the night could ha gone a bit better for joe biden. but when it comes to the issues that this campaign is about, the issues that matter to the american people, president joe biden is on their side. he's fighting for them. and that is what our campaign will continue to drive. >> our phones were exploding last night. i can't imagine the same among members of the campaign. is there agreement that joe biden needs to kind of clean this up and have some good moments in the public space, and by the way, how does he do that? this was debate night in america. millions of people were watching, we're probably going to get ratings that are pretty high. people were watching across ther board. this was the moment to show the contrast. do you think joe biden showed the contrast? >> well, look, a couple of things to keep inoo mind, mika. number one, we actually did have our best fund-raising, grassroots fund-raising day of the entire campaign yesterday and that was e also, that inclul fund-raising before and after the debatefu performance. and president biden has a packed schedule today, as i mentioned he's going to be traveling to north carolina, he's on his way there now, he'll be doing a rally, he'sin going to come to w york for thego stonewall event, packed fund-raising events all weekend. he is operating business as usual, taking his message out t voters, hitting the stump, you know, doing what he has to do on this campaign to raise money tor bring money in the door, and to get his t message out to voters. again, you know, got off to kind of a rough start. but he certainly picked up as the debate wore on. and i want to keep going back to some of the independent voters thatso we saw, where they broke during this w debate from our o research, and we put out a memo lastar night, which we'll make sure that everyone, you know, watching the show can see. but, the independent voters did break for president biden when it came to the core issueser th matteror to their everyday live. women's reproductive health, the economy, who's fighting for them?g protecting democracy. they were turned off by donald trump's lies. and, we're going to keep making that distinction, and that contrast very clear. >>ra isn't that really the way that the campaign for president bidenat has to go now, to talk the needs of the people in the country that is not about him, it's about what he represents as opposed to what donald trump represents, which in the areas you named, women's rights, lgbtq, blacks and others, he represents going back to pre-1950 america. isn't that, rather than playing this one personality against another. >> exactly. >> having a bad night. >> it was one night, and,ct aga, i keep saying the fundamentals of this election have not changed. they are whate they were befor this debate and what they were after this debate, which is democracy being on the line, women's reproductive health being on the line, the economy being on the line. democracy across the world, not just here in the united states, but across the world. those are the issues that joe biden caresar about. he'se fighting for the america people. presidentg -- donald trump wan to fight for himself. he wants to get back in office so he can keep himself out of jail. he can seek political retribution on his enemies. he'sis a convicted felon. those are the issues we're talking about on this campaign. president biden is going to go forward, continuing to drive that contrast and you're going to see that play out over the next days and weeks on this campaign. >> senior adviser for the 2024 election campaign, thanks so much. resident scholar at the american enterprise institute for public policy research, his latest piece is titled "the demise of the commissionce on presidentialde debates," norm, good morning, we can talk about the commission on presidential debates in a second, but we've spent the last four hours or so cataloging all the lies that donald trump told last night right out of the olgate, all th way up until the end. pick your issue, and he told a lie about it, a recognizable lie. the problem was that, president biden was not there in the breach to push back on some pretty low-hanging fruit. so,ng what is your sense of the damage that mayyo have been don to the president last night and where we go from here? >> so, let's put this in the context of history. we've had three other instances ofre really bad debate performances by incumbent presidents. we had gerald ford who said poland is free at a time when it was stillti under soviet domination. we knew what he meant but it really hurt him because it reenforced the stereo type of a president who isn't quite up to thet task. we had really -- barack obama had a really bad debate the first one with mitt romney. and i think perhaps the worst example of all was ronald reagan who demonstrated some mental fallout in his first debate with walter mondale. now, he came back in the second debate, and so did barack obama. and the question for joe biden is whether this will be the samh as it was with jerry ford where it reenforces the stereo type and you can't get out of it, that hurt plenty in an election that ended up being very close or whether he can pivot now. he's not going to be able to pivot with a g second debate ve soon. s the question is over the next three or four days if he can get out not at fund-raising events but doing in-depth interviews shows this was a one-off that can reassure people, including that democratic base and the funders. that's where the analogies come in with the past. but, you know, the performance, he was not helped by the moderators of the debate.th but it was his task to carry forward, and he didn't. >> yeah, and the difference in some of those instances that normth rightly brings up, take barack obama in 2012 with mitt romney, 20that, by most analysi was a case of perhaps overconfidence or a lack of preparation from which her recovered. barack obama was 51 years old that night. president biden, 81 last night during that debate, and a lot of people were typing in, yes, for the substance and all the lies we've cataloged this morning that donald trump told, but they wanted to see, visually, stylistically, is joe biden up for defeating donald trump, and the answer was no. >> after that first debate with mittrs romney, i don't remember single democrat saying barack obama should step down from the ticket. the leveldo of concern was nothg like the level of concern we have now because of the reasons of age and competence as you've just suggested. but norm, if -- do you think, one, that democrats should be having as serious conversationt the moment about replacing joe biden? and two,oe if they are thinkingf doing that, and having those conversations, how would it work in practice? >> and that's, i think, one of the real problems here. there are a lot of people who think in a pollyannish way that you can snap youray fingers and get a candidate and a ticket that's perfect. there's no mechanism for doing this unless biden both decided he wasn't going to run and had almost every figure in the democratic party,ig including a of the otherin potential nomine, rally behind kamala harris. otherwise, you end up with a zoo at a convention, and a divided party that isn't going to be veryrt helpful to them. so, they're not in a good place rightno now, and -- but you're going to have to watch for the next three or four days and see, alsod see whether there's a cratering in the polls. in that happens, if his standing, which was not great going into the debate, t is significantly worse, you're going to see a real drum beat to get him to step back and they'll have to come up with a differend mechanism. i'm not at all sure that it's going to work that way. i think he will probably soldier through but not a lot of great options right now. >> resident scholar at the american enterprise institute for public policy research norm ornstein, thank you very much. reverend al sharpton, thank you as well. we'll be watching politics nation saturdays and sundays at 5:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc, and on-jonathan lemire i atlanta, final thoughts this morning. >> we knew going in this was going to be a consequential debate now thea biden team is left with serious questions bout the future of their campaign. i'm told he's committed to staying in. we just heard that from adrienne elrod as well. next week or so will be key. we'll watch those polls. >> okay, and since i'm the last man to stand -- here's willie. willie, you're here with me. >> take it , away, mika. take it away. >> i'm going to say this. chill out. we need to see if joe biden is

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