this is the katie phang show. life from msnbc headquarters in new york city, real estate mogul. reality tv store. teflon don, president of the united states and after his july 11 sentencing, donald trump will add a new moniker to this list. convicted felon. a jury of trump's peers found him guilty of 34 felony counts of falsifying business records in an effort to interfere with the 2016 presidential election. and, yet, the twice impeached quadruple indicted one term ex- president who has also been found liable for civil fraud and sexual abuse and does over half $1 billion in verdicts, and who hoarded classified documents in his bathroom at mar-a-lago remains the presumptive nominee of the republican party per president of the united states. let's talk about it. i want to welcome you to a special chance to show. for those of you who remember, i have a rockstar panel of a roundtable today. catherine christian, at the d.a.s office and msnbc, former d.a. and criminal defense attorney and or political or political defense reporter for the courtroom. he was in when the verdict came down on thursday. special correspondent for vanity fair. and msnbc political analyst. and, now, the prompter goes blank because i wanted all you guys here. i actually banked on a verdict and i told my team i am going to book you guys for a roundtable because we will have a verdict to talk about on this saturday's show. you and jeremy have become staples in giving us incredible analysis and insight. i will not ask what your thoughts are because i think we have already heard a lot about it. i want to get down to the brass tactics because a lot of people want to know what are the next steps. let us talk more about that presentence investigation report that will be done for the 45th president of the united states. >> it is done for every defendant. he is not being targeted. it is not a kangaroo court. they will sign, probably a high- level probation officer, to interview mr. trump and prepare a report and it will be about the case and his background. his educational status. and whatever else the judge wants in that report. we will repair that report and give it to the defense, the prosecutor, the court, and the judge. it will be confidential so they will not be able to pull it out. and the judge will base his decision not just on that but what the prosecutor says. the defense will file a sentencing memo. this will all be due way before the sentencing date in july and then on that date of sentencing, the judge will sentence. also todd blanche said he is going to file a motion. the only motion i think you could file is a motion to set aside the verdict. i am assuming he will file that motion in writing. the prosecution will have a chance to respond to that. sometimes that delays the sentencing. i do not think it will in this case. then sometimes it is delayed because the judge cannot make a decision. so he is going to make a decision on that motion to set aside the verdict before the sentencing date. >> jeremy, i want to focus on something that they just said. he is going to be asked about the case. what is interesting is his tripling, quadrupling down his denial. now, listen, everyone is entitled to a defense and to go to trial which is what he did, but what does it say though for the potential of him getting dinged on sentencing because he is going to tell them that he did nothing wrong. >> it is a hazard he is walking into knowingly or intentionally. you meet with a probation officer and give what your thoughts are and share the information but your thoughts are not that i did not do anything. i do not do anything wrong. if you took that plea you have admitted to a court and if you have been convicted in the same thing because a jury of your peers have found you guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. if you turn around and say it is a witch hunt. it is a lie. i did not do it. even if it is more softly, the judge is going to ding you. he will pop you on the head and say if you do not want to take it, i am the one who will distribute it and it will be a heavier hand than it would have been if you accepted responsibility. it does the same time. same time. more than any other person in that courtroom or any courtroom in new york state. >> the republicans. hugo, i do want to take the timetable back for just a second to thursday. you are actually in the courtroom when the verdict was read. i want the viewers to understand how trump reacted. i mean, we were getting a lot of real-time updates. how did he react visibly? what did he look like when the verdict was read? >> miserable. that is really all i can say. i have seen trump at some of his worst moments legally. is there in the documents case. i was there for the january 6 case. and this is the worst i have seen him ever. you know? he does the usual scowl. he frowns. he kind of sat back in his chair. he was kind of shaking his head when the guilty counsel. then he stop shaking his head because it went on and on and on. >> each of the 34. >> it was interesting how different the mood was in the courtroom just 30 minutes before. just to run you back to how this all play out on the first day, when the parties came back into the room, the expectation was that there would be no verdict today and the judge even told the parties, look, i am going to send the juries home. this was like 4:15. they look very happy. they were giggling with trump. at one point he was laughing so hard. i thought he was going to smack his head on the table. it was just kind of comical. then 25 minutes later judge mershon said we have a note from the jury. the mood in the courtroom just changed. it was really kind of like an icebox. right? trump was saying for weeks it was like an icebox. it got really warm. that is the moment when the mood shifted in such a way. then 30 minutes later when the jury came back in i think trump was bracing himself. i think he knew that it was going to be a guilty verdict. i think when it came, it kind of hit him. the gravity of the moment. and it was just nothing like i have ever seen. >> you know, molly, there has been a lot of discussion about the gag order and legal discussion on whether his continued violation of the gag order will actually hurt him at the sentencing because it is defiance of the order and part of that includes a key motive component for punishing you and a deterrent to prevent you from reoffending as a defendant actually discourage others from violating the law. in this instance though, we talked a lot about the fact that trump was silenced appropriately so because of this gag order and yesterday we saw him go out into this crazy presser where he did not take any questions, which was such a tease. right? you want to bring media into talk about this but you do not give them a chance to talk about questions. but if you actually read the transcript verbatim of what he says it was nuts. it was crazy. how does the import of a pending sentencing play into how it is perceived politically by the rest of the world? >> you can see, again, this is this whole thing where trump thinks being a defendant actually helps his candidacy and that is clearly like getting high on your own sweat. there is no way in which being a criminal defendant helps your candidacy, and one of the things we see with him as he has been lying about this gag order. right? for example, he said i wanted to testify but i cannot testify because of the gag order. the judge even had to say that was not true. than he had these surrogates try to get around the gag order. even the speaker of the house, which is a sort of hallowed job in leadership. came out and said he could not talk about the judge's daughter. remember, this gag orders not some crazy gag order. you cannot malign the family of the judge. you cannot malign the family of alvin bragg. it is not think you cannot talk about the case. and so i do think he has tried to use the gag order to help him, just like with everything else. but ultimately, it is the same with this guilty verdict. it does not help him. and, in fact, i think it is going to hurt him with voters. >> we have so much more coming up on the katie phang show, so don't go anywhere. don't go any. k from afib not caused by a heart valve problem,... ...we're going for a better treatment than warfarin. eliquis. eliquis reduces stroke risk. and has less major bleeding. over 97% of eliquis patients did not experience a stroke. don't stop taking eliquis without talking to your doctor as this may increase your risk of stroke. eliquis can cause serious and in rare cases fatal bleeding. don't take eliquis if you have an artificial heart valve or abnormal bleeding. while taking, you may bruise more easily... ...or take longer for bleeding to stop. get help right away for unexpected bleeding or unusual bruising. it may increase your bleeding risk if you take certain medicines. tell your doctor about all planned medical or dental procedures. the number one cardiologist-prescribed blood thinner. ask your doctor about eliquis. i thought i was sleeping ok... but i was waking up so tired. then i tried new zzzquil sleep nasal strips. their four—point lift design opens my nose for maximum air flow. so, i breathe better. and we both sleep better. and stay married. what will you do when the power goes out? 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[ bird squawks loudly ] to a pet shop. meg's moving company uses t-mobile. so she scaled down her fleet to save money. and don's paying so much for at&t, he's been waiting to update his equipment! there's a smarter way to save. comcast business mobile. you could save up to 70% on your wireless bill. so you don't have to compromise. powering smarter savings. powering possibilities. so jury duty. it is mandatory service in our judicial system. 12 new yorkers chosen out of a pool of thousands, and this is important. they were chosen by prosecutors and trump's lawyers. it was not a one-sided process. that jury of 12 reached a unanimous verdict. and, now, those jurors are being threatened as maga extremists threaten them further cold's leader. here's one quote. i hope every chore's docs and made a paper what they have done. may god strike them dead. we will on november 5th, and they will pay. i am back with my panel. catherine christian, molly jong- fast, and jeremy. jeremy, i am going to go to you first. let us take a listen. >> very involved. he is a smart guy. he knows what he is doing. he jokingly said to us a lot that he wanted to be the litigator. he wanted to be the one actually arguing because he is a smart guy and knows what he is doing. we made every decision together. it did not work out. we got a bad result today. it is not over. >> jeremy, you are a criminal defense attorney. and, catherine, i am actually going to drop this right now. alina was saying she was to go on cnn and msnbc apparently. alina, you are welcome to come on my show. any time. you are welcome. i got her. it is fine. jeremy, i wanted to ask you, i found that to be such a big towel bike todd blanche. i thought was very crappy of him to do as a defense attorney. i thought he did donald trump dirty. why would you say that unless you as todd blanche are trying to defend the outcome of a verdict on 34 counsel much you took really bad advice from your own client. isn't it supposed to be the opposite? >> that is the problem throughout this entire case. when you say you are a co- litigant with your client, that is ridiculous. you are the one who represents above ethically and honestly the law and you have to advocate for your client 100%. but this was clearly the roadshow. the sort of schema donald trump. look how they opened up and you never heard about it in the closing. i do not have sex with -- well, i did not as todd blanche. why was that brought up? it was just a way to deflect. and unfortunately you had a attorney who was a phenomenal prosecutor but had not brushed his teeth yet and spend time in state court and unfortunately they allowed donald trump to call the shots and that really hurt their case, period. and one donald trump looks in that mere he may throw his attorneys under the bus and they are prepared for that but it is on trump. >> well, michael cohen is exhibit a. of throwing your people under the bus. everyone wants to know so correct me if i am wrong. sentencing on july 11th, he is not going to be taken into custody. right? >> even if he were given the sentence. >> he would not be taken in? tell us about the appeals process in this case. >> you cannot file a notice of appeal until he is sentenced. on the sentencing date, the court clerk was a you have 30 days to file your notice of appeal. they will do that within 30 days. and then the clock starts. so it will be the appellate division first apartment which is the intermediate appellate division appellate court in newark where they will file it. and i have been told if everyone files what they are supposed to file on time it will not take a year. this appeal can be decided by january of 2025. some people said -- >> why can't that be done by november? now, that would be really expedited. but it can be done if everyone files what they are supposed to file on time and the prosecution response on time. so it is never the court's fault when it takes forever. it is because the attorneys ask for things and do not file on time. >> can the prosecution asked in this sense? >> no. it is a defense. it is the appeal. >> i want to show the live stream from verdict day. she really came out from these chores. and it is true. these were a jury of donald trump's peers. but, you know, they are welcome to speak to the media and to the public now. but we have seen them being but docs already by mega extremists. what you think they will do in this case? >> i hope they come forward and protect themselves. i think the judge made a real point of trying to keep them anonymous for their own safety. you know, this is the kind of thing they do in an organized crime case. this is not normal. and i think it is worth pulling back and thinking donald trump and his republican party -- usually an autocrat. they really do intimidate people who do not go along with them. that is why you even had susan collins, right? >> not really happy about that. that trump's team was thrilled. >> and she is spewing the lie too because all these republicans are scared of donald trump. >> the "i am concerned" susan collins? >> but not concerned about the jurors. >> and also not about the law. >> the e. jean carroll case advised the jurors not to speak to the press and we do not know who they are. i suspect the same thing here. we have seen the same thing here. these jurors, obviously it is their choice, but we will not hear about them. they will stay in the background because of safety reasons. and that is happening in mock cases. >> it is also really a sign that trump is really dangerous. >> it is almost like it is georgetown. it is a really good analogy. you are going to drink this kool-aid whether you want it or not. summer drinking it by the gallon and others are being forced to say you will drink it otherwise we will make you drink it. that initially unfortunate. these jurors, you cannot allow one person to decimate one of the pillars of our country which is law and order in criminal justice. it is frightening. this is what gets me angry. i said it time and time again. he is innocent until proven guilty and he knows proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. but outside the courtroom he has single-handedly torn apart and rip down what it means to be law and order and respect for justice. >> class were to you. you were always kind of dialed into trump world, especially trump legal. their reaction to what just happened? >> i mean the reaction is they did as best as they could which was they could not do anything. i think there was a kind of resignation inside of trump's inner advisers. like thursday night after the verdict came down. there was nothing todd really could have done because the evidence was so overwhelming. that is something they will never admit privately and never admit publicly. but that is the take away. it is so interesting because we were talking immediately after the verdict about what happened to todd blanche. >> does he last? such a head of lettuce. >> i think he had a juror that was more favorable. >> that was the -- >> i think that was a hope they held onto because they had no other way of getting out of this. but the trump world things evidence is overwhelming and there is nothing that todd blanche could have done is indicative because todd is still here. in every other indictment, and every other massive fail that trump takes legally, the lawyers are gone the next day. the fact that todd is still here is indicative that the trump world knows the evidence was overwhelming and there was nothing todd could do. >> like the mother teresa comment. he knew he was going to lose. >> she is not a lawyer though. we have got to wrap it. hugo, you and i are going to be in fort pierce. mar-a-lago. you and i are going to go to fort pierce for mar-a-lago and we will see todd blanche at the evidentiary hearing that you and i are going to in a few weeks? >> that is the expectation. the pack is still here and they think there was nothing he could have done and they have no other better option. you know? trump is stuck with the legal team he has now. and they know that this is going to be the team that rides through to the end. >> catherine christian, jeremy saland -- you guys, all kidding aside and my producers are going to be upset i am taking this long. i want to thank you as fellow state prosecutors being in the trenches trying these cases. your insight and your time that you have given us outside your other duties and jobs has been invaluable for all of us including me. thank you for taking the time for this. and, you guys, stay with me. molly, hugo, they are staying with me after that. and the sunday night msnbc will feature "prosecuting donald trump witness to history." it features eyewitness accounts for me and my colleagues who experienced the child firsthand. take a look. >> did not notice any action between the former president and michael cohen but i did notice how closely michael cohen is making eye contact with the jury, especially when he is describing some of the more emotional parts of the story. when he is describing his sort of come to jesus moment when he decided he would choose his family over donald trump. >> when you prosecute cases where everyone has his hands dirty, that is michael cohen at the time. he was working for donald trump in doing these things for him. >> that is "prosecuting donald trump." i finished the sentence. that is "witness to history." and it is streaming on peacock. up next, what trump's conviction could mean at the ballot box, especially when it comes to the millions of republicans who are still on the fence on whether they can give trump a chance return to the ballot box. we are going to break it all down coming up next. next. it's time. yes, the time has come for a fresh approach to dog food. everyday, more dog people are deciding it's time to quit the kibble and feed their dogs fresh food from the farmer's dog. made by vets and delivered right to your door precisely portioned for your dog's needs. it's an idea whose time has come. ♪♪ have you ever considered getting a walk-in tub? 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[introspective music] recipes. recipes written by hand and lost to time. are now being analyzed and restored using the power of dell ai. ♪ on november 5th, millions of americans will vote for the 47th president of the united states. but donald trump might not be one of them. having been convicted of 34 felonies, the twice-impeached one-term president also found liable for sexual assault might not be able to vote in his own home state of florida. and while he erroneously says the, quote, real verdict of this trial will be decided in november, there are some republicans who have decided that his new your conviction might be a bridge too far. >> what happens if he does get elected and all those charges that he is found guilty of? do we want a president who wants to sit there with all the guilty charges against him? possibly going to prison? doing his oath, his duty, while in prison? >> he is going on trial for this and that. this and that. he is really the felon in charge instead of the commander in chief. >> i do not think any person who has gotten close enough to being indicted for a felony should be anywhere near the presidency. it is just embarrassing. >> so molly, john, hugo, they are still with me. so president biden's campaign is leaning in. there was a new piece that just came out saying goes all in on calling trump a convicted felon. this is actually delicious. 34 highlights from the press conference. and his unhinged speech. i say that tongue and cheek but there is a real-time fact check for all of the lies that came out of donald trump's presser yesterday. but does it make sense to really lean in? i am happy for a smorgasbord of all sorts of things that come from this. >> what the biden campaign has been doing and working really hard at this is trying to pierce this media bubble. because the mainstream media just does not reach the 200+ million people the way it used to unfortunately for all of us. and so they are doing everything they can to permeate the news bubble. and that means a lot of videos. that means this real-time fact check. i think even some things that may not work like that the narrow thing narrow thi . they are trying to do everything that they can and a lot of tiktok videos. i think that the trying is really important. right? and, remember, a lot of people felt in 2016 that hillary's campaign did not try everything. they did not go to wisconsin the way that they should have. and i think what is really a stark contrast is that the biden campaign is trying to do all those things. there was one week he was in pennsylvania three days in a row. the guy is crisscrossing the country. by the way, in 2016 we saw trump do that, too. >> there is a great and big divide between trump's legal and trump's campaign. so does that trump campaigns a water off a duck's back. d 34 felonies. 34 felonies. we are just going to keep on charging forward and pretend like this does not happen? >> i think it is more nuanced than that. they want to keep hammering the 34 convictions for the megabase. from a fund-raising perspective, it is so good. we raced 50 million+ -- >> but doesn't that does highlight the elephant in the room by doing that? >> that is a problem that the campaign hands. on the one hand, it is such a good fundraising video for the grassroots support and also for the billionaire class. i mean, they had a fund-raising dinner on thursday night immediately after the vote. i saw it in new york. the problem is, the more they hammer that the more that independents -- >> 49% of -- this is a pull -- 49% of independents think that trump should drop out now. and that is why trump spent $100 million of donor money on lawyers because he knew that. >> but that is such a waste of money. i mean, i am happy for him to do that and i am sure the lawyers are happy but how does that strategically work if you are trying to do a campaign? >> the trump campaign itself does not really know and they are trying to figure out in real time because they cannot foresee this and how they would figure out exactly how they would play to both independent and mega supporters. i think to the next few weeks, through july 11th, the sentencing, they will hammer on the conviction and milk it for everything they can and after that you will see it go silent and they will focus on everything that biden is doing wrong and in their eyes they will talk about? prices, about? prices gas prices, and it will be like it never existed. >> you do not have a disciplined candidate. right? so if trump or a disciplined candidate, we would not have seen that presser were it was like is an nda illegal? maybe an nda is an illegal. >> he does not take questions, which i think it was intriguing that he did not do that. but putting behind the anti- asian sediment, almost all mail from 1925 -- it looks like it is a recruiting exercise. they have beautiful tense. they have propane stoves and cell phones -- the best they can buy. i invite people who are tuning in right now to actually read this. not because i want you to be upset by what you read but to hear what it is. the 25th amendment. do we as in media highlight this? do we show this? this is a punitive nominee for the gop and the presidency of the united states. this is not something you pretend happens with your crazy uncle and you shove it back into the closet after thanksgiving dinner is over. >> this is a normal bias the problem. i mean, this man is an auto cracked and he also says totally deranged things. it needs to be covered as the danger that it is. again, steaks, not odds, are the things we need to embrace. >> i am out of time, sadly. hugo and molly jong-fast, thank you. and do not forget, you can get the best of msnbc daily sensory to your inbox every day, including molly's latest piece in my latest piece on the eyebrow-raising theory between alvin bragg's case. then you can also get written perspective from some of the biggest newsmakers. scan the qr code that you see on your screen to sign up now. coming up next, major ethics questions for our nation's highest court as alito resists calls for accountability. you are watching msnbc. ng msnb welcome to the wayborhood. with wayfair, finding your style is fun. 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[ music stops ] i'm sorry, carl. this is me in chair form. i don't see you. -oh, come on. this one's perfect for you. but you. love it. i told you we should have done a piñata. i explained it so many times. um-hum. they're not sitting. -and it rocks... you need to sit down. ♪ wayfair. every style. every home. ♪ as we await the breaking news on the decision on trump's claim of absolute criminal immunity, it is the justices themselves that are actually making the headlines. justice samuel alito saying, he will not recuse himself from january 6th cases despite allegations that his wife flew flags to support those who attack the capitol. chief justice john roberts has declined to meet with senate democrats. in a separate controversy, rolling stone is reporting that justice amy coney barrett's husband is representing fox news in a defamation lawsuit. and while the case is not before the high court, it does raise ethics questions that a justice's spouse is being paid by a large media corporation. to me now isyour source on a per box. i am so grateful to have your voice. i will read two lines from justice alito's letter. he sent to durbin in sheldon whitehouse and that he also sent to members of congress to. o i invite you to say that seven times. my wife is solely responsible for having flagpoles put up at our vacation home and has blown a wide variety of flies over the years. she makes her own decisions. i honor her right to do so. she is a private citizen. she possesses that same first amendment rights as every other citizen. let us be clear. his wife can make decisions about flags but women cannot make decisions about their body. explained the hypocrisy, please? >> the standard here is not that my wife did it so it is okay. alito is supposed to recuse if his impartiality reasonably could be questioned. so if you look at someone's house, they are political flags going up. you look at alito's behavior on the bench. it is not just that he is putting up silly flakes. he is also the most unapologetic republican in his work on the actual court. i want to be careful here. i do not think anyone should diminish their career or ambitions because of who their spouses, but when i started law school i sat down with my wife and i said, look, i am going to be a lawyer. i have certain professional obligations. so there will be some things i can't tell you and that is just part of the burden of, you know, being an attorney or being married to an attorney. the burden of being married to a judges much, much greater. you know? you have this obligation not to create the appearance of impartiality or the appearance of any kind of impropriety. samuel alito has been a judge for 34 years. so i just don't understand what is going on here. you know? both of them do not understand the professional obligations in play. >> how much of this though arrests at the feet of chief justice john roberts? it is his job as a part of the supreme court to make sure administratively and otherwise and even more importantly when it comes to ethical issues to make sure that everyone is minding their p's and q's. he says it is only one party asking to meet. it is not really a global concern. i mean, it is an unchecked offensive to the american public. >> yeah. i think that roberts is sort of operating in a world where the supreme court can act like it is above it. and maybe there was a time when the supreme court could do that. but what i do not think robert does not understand and alito does not understand is that the rules do not just exist to protect us from bias justices. the rules exist to protect bias justices from themselves. the reason why you don't go flying political flags outside your home when you're a judge or create the appearance of impartiality is because then people, including united states senators, start reasonably starting to question, wait, do we really want to defer to these people? do we really want them to, you know, not have any political scrutiny? the reason you do not do it is because when you are a political figure and you start engaging in inappropriate ways, the new york times starts looking into you and you do not want that. so, again, these rules exist to protect us but they also exist to protect the justices as well. and the fact that the justices, or at least alito is willing to blow past these, it does not just undermine him or questions about whether we can trust this court, but we cast a dark shadow on the entire supreme court as an institution. >> you know, ian, there was a time when i thought this idea of the expansion of the court was just crazy. you know? that there was not enough deference given to the highest court in the land because it was the supreme court's. but now i am offer court expansion. i am all for the appointments that the biden administration has been historically when it comes to changing the face of the bench. but i am tired of that ringing. so what are the solutions? the federal judges below scotus have incredibly stringent and appropriate lastly so obligations with a shout recuse if there are even hints of impropriety or improper and is going on here. so i am tired of the hand that ringing, ian. so what do we do? >> so there are lots of things they can do. they could add sees to the court and then biden could fill them. they could strip the court of its budget. they could strip the court of its jurisdiction. i mean, congress has lots of authority over the supreme court of the united states but none of that will happen now and that is because republicans control the house of representatives. so, i mean, i know there are a lot of folks calling for durbin to hold hearings and do some political theater. and you know, i do not know. maybe political theater will matters to some voters, but ultimately the moment that will decide the future of the supreme court and whether we have potentially seven or eight alitos on the court as the election. if donald trump wins, he will fill that court with alitos every time there is a vacancy. and if joe biden wins, not only can he appoint justices very unlike samuel alito, but if he has a democratic house or democratic senate, then maybe he can talk about more aggressive reforms to make sure that alito does not have the kind of power that he does. >> thank you for being here. i appreciate your voice always. coming up after the break, small acts of courage. tapping into 125 years of family history to tell stories of regular people who fought for change and democracy, and why it is the small acts back and had the biggest impact. keep it right here. here. smile! you found it. the feeling of finding psoriasis can't filter out the real you. so go ahead, live unfiltered with the one and only sotyktu, a once-daily pill for moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, and the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding you're so ready for your close-up. or finding you don't have to hide your skin just your background. once-daily sotyktu was proven better, getting more people clearer skin than the leading pill. don't take if you're allergic to sotyktu; serious reactions can occur. sotyktu can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections, cancers including lymphoma, muscle problems, and changes in certain labs have occurred. tell your doctor if you have an infection, liver or kidney problems, high triglycerides, or had a vaccine or plan to. sotyktu is a tyk2 inhibitor. tyk2 is part of the jak family. it's not known if sotyktu has the same risks as jak inhibitors. find what plaque psoriasis has been hiding. there's only one sotyktu, so ask for it by name. so clearly you. sotyktu. no, my denture's uncomfortable! dracula, let's fight back against discomfort. with new poligrip power max hold & comfort. it has superior hold plus keeps us comfy all day with it's pressure absording layer. time for a bite! if your mouth could talk it would ask for... poligrip. i'm your overly competitive brother. and i'm ready for a rematch. here take a free shot go ahead knock yourself out. your about to get served. seriously? get allstate, save money, and be better protected from mayhem like me. as the country reels from the history verdict finding donald trump guilty on all 34 felony counts in his new york election interference trial, it is important to celebrate the big acts of courage from people like stormy daniels some michael cohen who brought us to this important moment for rule of law in our american democracy, and with just one hippity seven days left until decision 2024, the future of our republic will also be defined by the small acts of courage that comes from ordinary citizens. we are now joined by the author of the new book "small acts of courage, a legacy of endurance and the fight for democracy." i always call you the hardest working man on tv, and now you have blessed us with another book. we were just talking about this during the commercial. the focus on the generosity towards immigrants in canada. we just heard that crazed, deranged presser from trump where he railed against the millions coming across the border. it is so antithetical for the dreams of immigrants. how much of your family has informed of the way that you approached and appreciated what canada has done. >> that is immigration from india to south africa to kenya to canada and then to the united states. so we are nothing but immigrants. you are an outlier if you have only immigrated wants. i am a double immigrant. grew up in kenya. then canada. then the united states. we have a sub 4% unemployment rate and it continues to go up. we are getting women who are more educated than men properly into the workforce. we are working towards paying women properly for what they do but the net effect is we are having fewer kids. we require integration. it is an economic imperative. we will shrivel up if we do not have proper immigration policy. can to figure this out in about 1968-1969. they realized they had to compete with the united kingdom and the united states for all the immigrants. so how do you get people into your country and get them to want to come there? they came up with language policies and got them to speak in school on the public dime, but it is a completely different view of immigration, and i worry we are going to need to do that in the united states before we get the reputation for being an anti- immigrant country. we are not one. but that is the reputation that america is getting. you can talk about all the ways in which you should fix immigration and get the border figured out. >> yes. just fine. >> but it falls under the department of homeland security. it gets your mind thinking of it as a security problem instead of an economic imperative problem. we need to understand the future of this country. we are not having more children so it will depend on attracting the best and the brightest. >> how would you define the role of being a good citizen? is it this conscious thing of waking up to do acts of courage? >> i think there are two things. the small part is important. the world feels overwhelming right now. it really feels like democracy is dying and the climate is going. do what you can do. do the things that are in front of you. the stories i write about in my family are about people who did small things that they did not enjoy the fruits of. they did not know what they were changing. in fact, some people in my family never saw the results. first of all, do small things. second of all, you cannot do nothing. the obligations of citizenship are as important as apologies of citizenship. we think about the right to vote in certain rights that you have. we have certain obligations. if society is not working the way it is supposed to, you have an obligation to make it work better. we see this every single day whether it is jewelries or people go to their school boards to make sure that books are not banned and people who take and start a chance to make sure that justice goes away. it does not have to boil the ocean. that is the point of my book. we all have agency. the least of it is voting. we must do that. but beyond that, registering others, hugging her librarian and telling them you respect them, but we are participating in the system of justice and democracy and civil activity. that is how we fix this. >> not to be complacent about it. to understand that you can actually move the needle. that is why for me to have this ability to interview you, not only as a colleague and a friend but to be able to enjoy this kind of "let me lift the curtain of ali velshi " and see who he is. how did it feel to be able to write this? >> it was good and it makes me feel more obligated toward citizenship. right? it makes me realize that i have a legacy. this book is sort of universal. we are all children of someone who one day decided to take steps towards a better life. >> right. >> you have an obligation. you have an obligation to your ancestors. you have an obligation to fix the country that you know call home. to say that i can now make this better. but you do have an obligation to do something about it and not just complain about it. it has been great to sort of write about it and say i have to do these things. even if i don't see the results of it, i have got to try to move the needle. >> i love the legacy. go out and get this book that is here. it is available wherever you get your books, so you have to go and get your copy right now. and you can catch ali velshi every weekend here on msnbc and you can see ali again at 7:00 p.m. tonight. i tell you, the hardest working man on tbs sitting right next to me. remember to follow the social using @katie thing . scan the qr @katcode on their do not go anywhere. anywhere. ? 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