now it is time for the last word with ali velshi, in for lawrence. good evening, ali. >> you know, alex, you and i sometimes talk about serious things, and once in a while -- talk to your colleagues about when you're not on camera? you and i had a remarkable conversation before the show, topic being hair, which i don't think most people would think that you and i would be talking about. >> yeah, i mean, listen, just because you are not and enthusiastic of the hair salon, necessarily, does not mean that you don't have valid opinions. >> we managed to fill a few minutes a conversation. >> and we feel some more conversation on live television in front of an american audience. >> we'll see you soon. >> have a. great show. >> it's not the weekend. this is how i'm thinking of things. it's wednesday. we are tracking a number of major developments tonight, the cases against defendant donald trump, including a delay tracked by the former president including the hand of one federal judge overseeing one of special counsel jack smith's cases. you must call last week, donald trump's criminal defense team filed an appeal of judge shotguns ruling, saying that trump is not protected by president immunity for his attempts to overturn the 2020 presidential election, leading up to and on january six. today, in response to that appeal, judge chutkan temporarily halted all proceedings until the appeal is resolved, writing in a three -page order that she, quote, agrees both parties that defendants appeal automatically space any further proceedings that would move this case towards trial or impose additional burdens of litigation on defendant. accordingly, and for clarity, the court hereby stays the that lines and proceedings scheduled by its pre trial order as amended, and quote. the state is ostensibly a win for donald trump who is doing everything he can to delay the trial as long as possible. also today check smith received an affirmative ruling from the appeals court considering the trump immunity claim. hours ago with the d.c. appeals court ruled in favor of the special counsel's request for an expedited schedule on donald trump's claims of immunity. donald trump now has until december 23rd. that's next saturday. to submit his brief to the appeals court. jack smith and his team get a week to respond to that, and then trump's attorneys -- get their final reply brief in. the decisions on the expedited schedule came hours after filings from trump and smith to the d.c. appeals court this afternoon, apparently the appeals court was not very impressed with this argument from trump's attorneys. quote, even if the court granted expedited consideration, which should not do, it should not adopt the prosecution's proposed schedule, which is facially unreasonable and would make president trump's opening brief do the day after christmas. this proposed hedule would require attorneys and support staff to work around the clock through the holidays, inevitably disrupting family and travel plans. it is as if the special counsel growled with his grinch fingers nervously drumming i must find some way to keep christmas from coming. but how? and quote. yeah, i didn't make that up. according to team trump not only is jacks mitt deranged and thug -- their words -- he is also apparently the grinch. in just a minute we will ask our legal experts glenn kirschner and harry litman if they've ever come across the dr. seuss citation in an appeals court before. remember, as the appeals goes about its business with the trump immunity claim we are still waiting to find out whether the united states supreme court will ultimately decide to rule on trump's immunity claim. the court signaled earlier this week that it was considering whether or not to take up that question. trump and his team have until next wednesday to submit a briefing to the supreme court as it weighs smith's request for trump them to rule on trump's immunity claim. here in new york after 44 long days, testimony ended today in new york state attorney general letitia james civil fraud trial against donald trump, his family and his business. closing arguments in that case are set for january 11th, charging judge arthur engoron, who has already ruled trump committed persistent fraud in his business dealings, is then expected to make a final decision on penalties. despite being on the receiving end of a nonstop stream of verbal of use from trump, judge engoron said at the start of court today, quote, in a strange way, i'm going to miss this trial. it has been an experience, and quote. that's putting it mildly. also making legal news today, defendant rudolph giuliani today. federal jury in the civil defamation suit filed against giuliani heard more getting testimony about the threats received by the two atlanta -- workers who were singled out by giuliani and donald trump and their lies about the 2020 election results in georgia. one message sent to one of the two women ruby freeman, read, quote, we are coming for you on your family. miss ruby, the safest place for you right now is in prison, where you will swing from the trees, end quote. another of giuliani's lies was that two women were caught by a surveillance camera passing around usb drives inside an election facility. shay moss testified about that -- last year. >> a lot of these threats and vile comments racist in nature? >> a lot of them were racist. a lot of them were just hateful. but yes, sir. >> in one of the videos we just watched, mr. giuliani accused you and your mother of passing some sort of usb drive to each other. what was your mom actually handing you on that video? >> a ginger mint. >> a ginger mint. an attorney for the -- held up one of the minutes in court this weekend for our jury to see. leading off our discussion, glenn kirschner, msnbc legal analyst, and also with us harry litman, former u.s. attorney and former deputy assistant attorney general -- gentlemen, thank you for being with us this evening. glenn kirschner, first of all, explain to me the decision by judge chutkan to stay the proceedings. this procedural? or is it surprising in any way? >> this is criminal procedure one-on-one, ali. once an appeal has been filed the trial court's divested of jurisdiction and so she just has to stay the case, pause the case, and sort of sit back and await the appellate court rulings. interestingly, in that three-page order, she did say a couple of things. she said, i am not going to vacate -- in other words, cancel -- all the deadlines, and she certainly did not canceled the march 4th trial date. she said i will suspend them. and we will see how quickly things move through the appellate process, and perhaps they can keep to some of the original deadlines, though that may end up being difficult. the other thing she said is, i am not letting go of the gag order that i imposed on donald trump because i continue to have a responsibility to make sure that the administration, the administration of this justice system and of this case remains intact and sound and safe. so, that may inspire some more litigation by trump side. we will see. but by and large the trial matter is now on pause while this sort of dual track that jack smith is following in both the d.c. circuit court of appeals and simultaneously in the supreme court plays itself out. >> harry litman, let's talk about the d.c. circuit court of appeals. what is going on here? on the one hand, you've got a supreme court saying we are not even necessarily going to take up jack smith's addition, but we are going to hear it from the trump team. meantime, in the d.c. court of appeals is still continuing its activities. >> not just continuing, but going more into overdrive. so, jack smith says, you still have it. and so, do a very quick briefing schedule. they did, a very quick one, and that shows that their concept of trying to move quickly. now, at the same, time that hasn't changed the special motion that smith made for the supreme court saying, hey, consider whether to take this, case even before judgment. that includes judgment in the district of columbia court of appeals. so, this could still decide -- the supreme court -- to grab it, even from the court of appeals that they haven't yet, but for now the court of appeals -- showing every sign of going very quickly. and all we think will be done by -- january 2nd with a well may issue -- >> glenn, what are the possible outcomes at the supreme court that could have an effect on what the supreme court is doing? >> if the supreme court decides to let the case leapfrog over the d.c. federal circuit court of appeals, then the d.c. court of appeals is out of it and it would be directly in the hands of the supreme court to decide. i think it is going to end up there anyway. so, it may be that the supreme court appreciates the urgency of the moment, appreciates the need to at least attempt to keep the march trial date in fact, and maybe they will go ahead and, as harry said, just grab hold of it and decided promptly. it's anybody's guess right now. i do think, given that the d.c. federal circuit court of appeals has put it on this extremely accelerated track with all briefs due, by january 2nd, that may give the supreme court a little bit of breathing room in a little bit of a come from, analysts say, okay, it will quickly go through ordinary channels. and then we can still promptly grab hold of it when the appellate court is done with. it >> harry litman, you can answer this question by invoking or not invoking dr. seuss. but does the trump argument that you are wrecking christmas by putting this deadline on -- could that hold any water? >> i don't think so, but it's not the first citation of dr. seuss. justice kagan, michael court, famously cited one fish, red fish, blue fish, in a supreme court that justice scalia joined. but i want to just amplify what glenn said and say it's really going to matter what the doj decides to do in its supply brief. they filed the brief, sent to the supreme court, saying, grab this. enough donald trump, next wednesday, will file a brief, presumably, saying, oh, what's at the big rush, guys? and then, the doj will come back in. maybe they say, we'll let it go now, let the d. c. circuit go and it's normal time. maybe they say, no, the ticket anyway, time is of the essence here, go forward. one thing seems pretty sure to me. because a judge chuck consent chutkan not just the trial but the discovery is on hold, we now are sort of day for day delayed. i think at the trial date itself is going to give a month or so in any of that. the question is it will not get more than that. >> regardless, though, glenn, donald trump and his team continued to bring up this immunity, situation, so jacks jack smith has done what jack smith had to do. what is his best and worst case all come at this point. >> worst-case an area is the supreme court conjures out of finn air, absolute presidential him in for a sitting president. he will be given a free pass to commit any and all crimes he wants, including and inferentially crimes designed to or lawfully detain the power of the presidency. i don't think that there is a chance that the supreme court does not because there is no statute that provides a president is absolutely immune from prosecution. there is no case, thought no precedent from any appellate court, and there is no constitutional provision. those are the three sources of law. so, i don't think there is a fourth source out there. i don't know where the supreme court could conjure up one. but the consequences could not be more dire if they find a president is absolutely immune from prosecution the case gets dismissed, and any president, including, presently, joe biden, it's free to commit any and all crimes issues to commit. >> harry litman, obviously, that wouldn't affect -- well, i don't know it if it affects the mar-a-lago case, if that applies to donald trump post presidency, or the manhattan case, which applies to donald trump re-presidency. but does it apply to the georgia case? >> the short answer is yes. it's a -- just as you say, ali, the argument is, while you are in the presidency of an automatic get out of jail free i agree with glenn that that would be the second worst. the second worst would be if they said it would take so long that we can't have trial by november and i don't think that is very likely either. but in terms of what it affect fulton county it would be a federal constitutional provision and the constitution says federal law is supreme. so, i think, yes. if he is immune for conduct in office it would mean that a state court also could not prosecute him criminally for state law violations. >> glenn kirschner, let's turn to the rudy giuliani case. actually expected to take the stand tomorrow. he's not donald trump, but boy, he's another hard one to control as he you are his lawyer. what are you seeing so far expected from this? >> the one thing that shocked even me, with all of rudy giuliani's faults and foibles, is that he seems to have defamed shaye moss and ruby freeman over the course of this trial by telling a reporter on the courthouse steps that he did not lie about them, and they were involved in, quote, changing votes. that sort of raise the hackles of judge beryl howell. and she said, it seems that he may have defamed them a new. interestingly, today, ruby freeman testified and it was gut-wrenching in the accounts that i read. she talked about how the fbi told her it wasn't safe to go back to her home and she could not go back to her home. so, out of her own pocket she had to pay for airbnb's and she ultimately paid thousands of dollars to have a security system put in her house until her own address was disclosed online, then she had to flee her home. she said, even to this day, she is afraid to use her name. interestingly, rudy giuliani's lawyers chose not to cross examine her. that's a difficult thing to do, to forego across examining a witness or if victim, sometimes, it's the smart thing to do because no lawyer once the be perceived as beating up on a victim, however, everything she said today, it was heartbreaking and gut wrenching, sits an rebutted in the minds of those jurors. >> it's good to have you here tonight to help us through our increasingly complicated legal issues. glenn kirschner and harry litman, always appreciate your time. >> thanks, glenn. >> coming, up republicans have been running for the chance to impeach president biden from the moment he was sworn in. today, as republicans got their revenge by voting to open an impeachment inquiry against the president, who is trying to solve two different international conflicts as a dysfunction rains on capitol hill. senator chris van hollen joins us next, and later, a battle for a woman's right to choose is heading back to the supreme court, this time for the right to use an abortion pill, please stay with us. i got this $1,000 camera for only $41 on dealdash. dealdash.com, online auctions since 2009. this playstation 5 sold for only 50 cents. this ipad pro sold for less than $34. and this nintendo switch, sold for less than $20. i got this kitchenaid stand mixer for only $56. i got this bbq smoker for 26 bucks. and shipping is always free. go to dealdash.com right now and see how much you can save. ♪ if you struggle. ♪ and struggle. ♪ and struggle with cpap. you should check out inspire. ♪ no mask. no hose. just sleep. inspire. sleep apnea innovation. learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com there's something going around the gordon home. good thing gertrude found delsym. now what's going around is 12-hour cough relief. and the giggles. the family that takes delsym together, feels better together. hmmm... the family that takes delsym together, kind of needs to be more, squiggly? 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[ chuckling ] with the click of a pen, you can a new volkswagen at the sign, then drive event. sign today and you're off in a new volkswagen during the sign, then drive event. first time i connected with kim, she told me that her husband had passed. and that he took care of all of the internet connected devices in the home. i told her, “i'm here to take care of you.” connecting with kim... made me reconnect with my mom. it's very important to keep loved ones close. we know that creating memories with loved ones brings so much joy to your life. a family trip to the team usa training facility. i don't know how to thank you. >> no amount of evidence could i'm here to thank you. convince republicans that joe biden did nothing wrong, because they are looking for the troops, they are looking for revenge. i would just say, directly to the american people, mister speaker, that the republican party works for donald trump, not for you. >> that was a top democrat on the house rules committee, jim mcgovern, before the republican let house of representatives approved a resolution to get revenge. in other words, today, every single republican voted to formalize an impeachment inquiry into president biden. >> on this vote, the yays are 2:21 and the nays are 2:12. the resolution is adopted. >> now, while republicans are focused on exacting revenge for, i don't know, something. they are failing to do actual critical to national security important, what it actually means to get things done in congress. more than a month after president biden requested a 110 billion dollars in emergency funding, which includes 61 billion dollars in aid to ukraine, house republicans have yet to consider that package. in a statement, president biden said, quote, i wake up every day focused on the issues facing the american people, real issues that impact their lives and the strength and security of our country and the world. unfortunately, house republicans are not joining. instead of doing anything to help make americans lives better, they are focusing on attacking me with allies, instead of doing the job by the urgent work that needs to be done, they are choosing to waste time on this basis political stunt, that even republicans in congress amid is not supported by facts, unquote. yesterday, republicans ignored ukraine's president volodymyr zelenskyy and his plea for more aid in the defense of ukraine. >> it's very important that by the end of this year, we can send a strong signal of our unity to the aggressor and the unity of ukraine, america, europe, the entire world. >> joining us now is a democratic senator chris van hollen. he is a member of the senate foreign relations and senate appropriation committee. good to see you again, thank you for being with us. i watched with amazement, was on air while the press conference with the president was going on. i watched in amazement that any person plea by volodymyr zelenskyy, who has turned out to be one of the most formidable leaders that we have seen in, i don't know, half a century, fill, essentially on deaf ears with some of your republican colleagues. >> well, it's good to be with you. president biden is right that the republicans have no positive vision for the country. all they seem to be agree on is to watch this bogus site impeachment proceeding and the house. meanwhile, i was in the room when president zelenskyy made this strong appeal to america to continue to support ukraine, given the ongoing vicious attacks at the putin has launched on ukrainian sovereignty, on ukrainian freedom. yet, while there was a lot of nodding of heads in the room, there was no change, when we walked out of the room. you still have so many republicans heating donald trump and refusing to support ukraine. others are coming up with excuses that we have to do some other things in order to move on to the. meanwhile, as we have seen, you've got russians, you've got putin's cronies openly praising members of the republican party for blocking support to ukraine. this is a scary moment for democracy around the world and democracy here at home at this book a simpson proceeding. >> senator, as a member of the senate foreign relations committee, i think a lot about these things. the consequences of us pulling back from ukraine are remarkable, in that it actually could cost to ukraine success on the battlefield but, more importantly, or not more importantly but differently, it sends a message to our allies in nato, this president has worked hard. president biden has worked hard to step up and, in fact, our partners in this war have spent more money than america has, but it sends messages to autocrats around the world, as well, about, america, after a while, will stand out. down. >> that's exactly right because, one of the great success stories in mobilizing help for the ukrainian people as been president biden's leadership in assembling the alliance of getting nato to step up, and they have. yet, when our nato colleagues see what is happening, it is going to send a terrible message that when push comes to shove, the united states is not there, and it's not just our nato allies. it is allies in east asia, whether it be japan, south korea. while our allies will worry more, our adversaries will be cheering this moment, as republicans try to pull the rug out from under ukraine and wave the white flag. president xi, we all know, he's watching the united states carefully, as he makes his own calculations, regarding taiwan or other efforts in the region. so, this is a big moment for american leadership. i still cannot believe at the end of the day, the united states will not come through, republicans all wake up. we are in a dangerous place right now. >> senator, there's also been a warning that the president has put out on the other major international issue of the israel gaza war, in which she he is criticized the current composition of the israeli government has to change and warning israel that all the civilian deaths in gaza are causing international support to erode. your thoughts on this? >> well, that's right. this was an important moment today, where president biden called out prime minister netanyahu and his very right-wing coalition for the conduct of the war. look, president biden has been clear, that we supported the objective of ending the military draft of hamas, but in his comments, he talked about the indiscriminate bombing taking place in gaza. we also witnessed the heads of major international humanitarian organizations yesterday say that they have worked around the world for decades, and they have never seen a worse humanitarian catastrophe than what we are witnessing in gaza. these are organizations that like care, save the children, oxfam, and this needs to be put at the doorstep, in terms of humanitarian assistance to be brought. the netanyahu government and people like ben-gvir within that government, who have been really restricting aid in to gaza and creating a very desperate situation through the siege. >> let me ask about the event amendment that you have put forward. you've got support of several colleagues on this, in which you say that any defense articles or services provide and pursuant with this act should be used in accordance with international law, including international humanitarian law. and a lot of armed conflict and the united states law. the president shall obtain assurances that the recipient countries will cooperate fully with any united states efforts and united states supported international efforts to provide humanitarian assistance to civilians in an area of conflict with the united states defense articles or surfaces defense services are being used by recipients. where are you on this? >> ali, we have strong and growing support for this common sense amendment. i should stress that it applies to all the recipients of the u.s. military assistance, applied to ukraine. it would apply to countries in east asia that receive military assistance. and, yes, it would also apply to israel. jon finer, the deputy national security adviser has said publicly on tv that the in that it states already requires recipients of the u.s. military assistance to comply with international humanitarian law and u.s. law. we are just restating that very important principle. it's already current law in one form or another that countries that do not cooperate with u.s. efforts to provide humanitarian assistance can cannot receive a security assistance. and then we have an important information here, ali, we want the president to report to the congress of the american people, whether or not the countries that are receiving u. s. military assistance, using the benefits at the taxpayer dollars, are in fact using that in accordance with international, humanitarian law and american law, whether they are in fact cooperating fully with our efforts to provide humanitarian assistance. and, importantly, whether they are comport-ing with other u.s. policies that are in place to reduce civilian casualties in more. war. so, these are important pieces. folks we'll make requirements clear, but also to have reporting garments so that we can hold all the countries accountable for use of u.s. military purchased with american taxpayer dollars. >> senator, good to see you as always. thank you for spending time with us this evening. senator chris van hollen of maryland. >> good to be with you. >> when we come back, the supreme court is taking on another other cases for a woman's right to choose, citing this time whether the abortion pill will remain widely available. that is up next. and the giggles. the family that takes delsym together, feels better together. there's something going around the gordon home. good thing gertrude found delsym. now what's going around is 12-hour cough relief. and the giggles. the family that takes delsym together, feels better together. the first time you made a sale online with godaddy was also the first time you heard of a town named dinosaur, colorado. we just got an order from dinosaur, colorado. start an easy to build, powerful website for free with a partner that always puts you first. start for free at godaddy.com >> the supreme court is once again entering the abortion debate, deciding whether to limit the access to the abortion pill mifepristone. -- a lower court, ruling restricting access to the abortion pill, approved by the fda more than 20 years ago that he used in more than half of all abortions in this country. the ispace decision could make it even harder for one, especially in states where abortion is banned, to obtain mifepristone, prohibiting it from being mailed to patients prescribed to telemedicine, and limiting highlight in a pregnancy can be used. this comes as the legal landscape created by the supreme court's reversal of roe v. wade is becoming more perilous for himself. this week a woman named kate cox who is forced to flee texas to -- non viable frequency that wrister health. that's after the texas supreme court ruled that her case didn't qualify for an exemption of the state's abortion ban. the lawsuit is still continuing, as is another filed by 20 women in texas accusing the states abortion ban -- similar legal challenges taking place in kentucky after one pregnant woman filed a lawsuit seeking class action status, arguing the states abortion ban by later in kentucky woman's constitutional right to privacy. her attorneys have vowed to pursue the case, encouraging other women to join the lawsuit, even as their client discovered this week that no heartbeat was detected in her fetus. arizona supreme court just heard arguments in a case challenging whether that states 158-year-old near total abortion ban and acted before arizona was even a state should override the 2022 law that bans abortion after 15 weeks. and in oklahoma, the state supreme court is keeping multiple abortion bans on hold as it considers the merits of the case. the legal landscape on abortion rights in 2024 is shaping up to be extremely consequential. joining me to discuss this is michele goodwin, constitutional law and global health policy professor at georgetown law school, co-faculty director of national and global health law institute. she's also the author of policing the womb, invisible women and the criminalization of motherhood, which is extremely prescient as a title. and michele goodwin, good to see you again. >> thanks for having me back on with you. >> i'm trying to remember, you told me something about maternal danger in women in america, in some cases outstrips other countries that are much, much poorer, much less developed. and while i understand you are making a sort of broad point about health care we are actually seeing specific examples in which women who have doctors who have told them they have have a high-risk pregnancy that is a risk to their own health, cannot get exceptions. the exceptions that we have all heard, that some people are prepared to make, are apparently not even available. >> that's right, and is really important that we understand just what is at stake. so, we know from the u.s. supreme court in 2016 in the case, that a woman is 14 times more likely to die by carrying a pregnancy to term than by having an abortion. that is the level setting. any other area of medicine, there would be no contention whatsoever if one understood you are 14 times more likely to die if you engage in this one behavior, this one procedure versus another. you will be forced to engage in that one, which is 14 times more likely to die. and when i mentioned the last time that we work together that the united states ranks 55th in the world, that is behind countries where there have been genocides, where there have been -- it is safer in those countries to actually be pregnant and give birth then in the united states and we are the deadliest of all industrialized nations in the order of pregnancy, maternal mortality and also morbidity, which suggests that even if you survive your pregnancy, you may not survive your pregnancy and have a meaningful, high quality of life. these are some of the things that we don't talk about in the united states, and i will just add one other feature to that. which is, that, in texas -- texas has been considered the deadliest place in all the developed world for a woman to be pregnant. and so that is how we need to level set to just begin. because there is a rhetoric on the far-right and from antiabortion movements that pregnancies are safe, that, in fact the best choice in terms of someone's health is to stay pregnant and that is not the case. >> the issue here is that it does seem the cruelty is the point, and that exceptions -- experts who said for a long time exceptions don't work, this is the evidence. because we are a woman, kate cox, was told by her doctor and then goes to the court to say,, i can tell you guys are going to get crazy about this, so can you just accept my doctors were that this is dangerous? i need to get an abortion. apparently not. >> apparently. not in fact, there are so many paradoxes in that state supreme court's decision. the first thing is that even though they are the high court of that state, it's they start off by saying, well, we have no power in this case. this is a matter of the legislature, and that's a bit ironic given they are the state supreme court. then they say, this law actually has a significant -- given the impression that life and death, quality of health should qualify if it is a significant exception, except we understand it is meaningless, that it is more illusory than real. then to go on to say, beyond that that these matters don't even need to be brought to court, that it's actually something a doctor could decide. but of course, in this case, you have the doctors articulating that this is dangerous. it's a non viable pregnancy and could risk future fertility. it could risk her life. clearly, that was a matter in the -- how serious can it be that a doctor can really weigh in here when you have a state attorney general and -- if they actually intervene, which they think is medically advisable? >> and we will leave this for another conversation, what you and i have to have soon. but the threats pale in comparison to some threats that other states are making about women or people who aid them in getting an abortion, up to and including some people recommending the death penalty. and michele goodwin, thank you for being with us. professor michele goodwin is a constitutional law and global health policy professor. all right, coming up, republican -- abortion access are at a high time -- in the 2024 elections. our next guest has been working to pass legislation of protecting protecting abortion access in her own state and across the country. senator tammy baldwin, who is running for reelection in wisconsin, joins us next. sin, joins us next it's 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announcement that the supreme court will hear a challenge to the long-standing approval of the abortion pill mifepristone comes as efforts in multiple states by -- limit reproductive rights. since roe v. wade was struck down last summer, abortion access has been a lightning rod in state elections in judicial courts across the country, and it will continue to be a crucial issue for voters in 2024 as well. in wisconsin, abortion services were paused for more than a year after the roe decision, until a few months ago in september when a judge ruled that an 1849 law, banning the procedure, did not apply to consensual abortions. last week the same judge issued a final -- interpretation but there are still only -- madison and milwaukee we're abortion -- our next guest wisconsin senator tammy baldwin, is working to pass legislation to guarantee access to abortion across the country and to restore the right to cover the reproductive health care for millions of americans. joining us now democratic senator tammy baldwin of wisconsin, running for reelection to the united states senate in 2024. senator, great to see you again. >> good to see you, ali. >> conversation the other day with a lawyer for the center for reproductive rights who was pursuing the case in texas after kate cox left the state to seek health care and i asked why we are pursuing it. we're very clear on where -- and he said, we have to get to this, we have to exhaust that before some people will understand this is a completely political battle, and it's going to have to be fought politically. we're going to have to do the stuff you are trying to do. so. let's talk about that, or to success look like he won a national level that guarantees reproductive rights? >> ultimately, we have to codify roe v. wade after the dobbs decision and we have to take the additional and necessary step of telling the states that they cannot encumber these rights to the passage of state laws which we have seen in states across the country. i talked -- we already talked about the 1849 criminal abortion ban in wisconsin but our legislature has been very busy in recent years in recent years putting further hurdles in the way of women seeking comprehensive -- and we have seen the cases, the statutes in texas, in florida, that are so -- access for women to needed health care, virtually impossible, as we saw in the case in texas of kate cox, and i heard similar stories in wisconsin, abundant similar stories of people who had crises crisis pregnancies and were unable to get services in wisconsin. as you've mentioned, they resumed care into counties, but elsewhere in the state there is still no access. >> let me ask, you because you have had experience of, this this is the anniversary of your respect for marriage act that you passed, then enshrines lgbtq+ equality. i think a lot of people thought it was like abortion, we didn't have to deal with, this but we now realize you actually have congress and state legislatures have to do these things. so let's talk about that. given your experience with that. when people asked me what was like to make history by passing this legislation i gave a similar response to those who asked me what it was like being the first woman to be elected to congress from wisconsin, or the first openly gay challenger to an election to the senate. the point was never about making history, it was about making a difference. with this bill we were able to do both. so you've got some experience with this idea, codifying something that some people think already is a right that exists. tell me how they overlap. >> first of all, this respect for marriage act was made necessary by the dobbs decision, overturning roe v. wade, specifically in clarence thomas 's concurring opinion. he went after a number of other cases that have been considered well settled precedents. my name. and he basically invited them to be re-litigated in front of this new and activist supreme court. people were terrified. we had fought for so long to have marriage rights. we fought in legislatures. we fought, ultimately, in the supreme court, and in the -- obergefell ruling in 2015, the marriage equality was granted and now there are hundreds of thousands of couples who rely on the legal tools that are conferred in a marriage to protect their families, to protect their, spouse their children, and people were terrified that these were going to get ripped away after we saw 50 years, nearly, of precedent overturned by the supreme court in overturning roe v. wade. but i could also tell you that when we introduce the respect for marriage act to make sure that even if a future supreme obergefell, marriage equalitye decision, peoples marriages would still be safe. that's the respect for marriage act did. i heard from so many people who have lost sleep while we were working on passing this legislation, who felt the uncertainty and insecurity that their marriage will be recognized at the national level and at every state and i heard from so many who said, i really felt seen by the federal government for the first time, i really can sleep better at night knowing that my marriage is secure. >> let me ask you very quickly, we have seen in the off-year elections, the abortion referendum, the midterm elections, this issue of rights, whether it's lgbtq, the right to read books, but mostly the right to control your reproductive health. it's bringing people out to the polls. it's about motivating people. >> absolutely. we saw that in wisconsin in the spring when we had a supreme court justice who was. up and it is going to continue to be a pressing issue, especially in a state like wisconsin that still has this law on the books that was passed to the mid 1800s. i know that my opponent in the election is supporting a nationwide banning, like so many, and in the republican party and that makes next year 's elections just critical in terms of the work we must do to restore our rights and freedoms. >> senator baldwin, good to see you as always. thank you for joining us this evening. tammy baldwin is united states senator from wisconsin. tonight's last word is next. that's the value of ownership. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ [bell ringing] and doug says, “you can customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual.” he hits his mark —center stage— and is crushed by a baby grand piano. are you replacing me? with this guy? customize and save with liberty bibberty. he doesn't even have a mustache! oh, look! a bibu. 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