Transcripts For MSNBCW Decision 20240703

Im Rachel Maddow here in msnbc with my beloved colleagues, chris hayes, joy Reid Stephanie ruhle. Great to all be together in this difficult time we will be joined by California Governor Gavin Newsom in a little bit. He was there at the debate, god bless and we will get his take on what went down tonight the debate is just now wrapping up after two hours of talking stuff. Seven republicans swear it off tonight at the Ronald Reagan library in california. And of course, you know, just one a basic political level, two questions coming out of tonights debate, the obvious one, anything that happened in the second debate, will it have impacts on their standing in race. We had one debate already that first debate last month appear to have no major effect on the polls at all. There was only one candidate who got a significant polling bump, and that was the guy who did not attend. Donald trump got the largest bump of all the candidates out of the first debate. Again, he was not there. The stakes are higher this time around, candidates fundraising boost out of this debate to get their campaigns to keep going. And also to qualify for the next debate. They all have to get momentum out of this. Previous years, republican president ial primaries, by this time in the calendar highprofile candidates had already started dropping out. So, if past is prologue, its possible that we should see a painting of the herd in the wake of tonights debate. But who knows, nothing feels normal anymore. Anything happened tonight that will affect the overall stakes in this race . Of course, the second big question tonight is specific to our time. The second big question tonight is, so what . What does all of this mean, why are we here . When the candidates and i talked over and over and over again about Law And Order, crime, law on order, the rule of law. They were awkwardly not talking about the far and away leading republican candidate, former President Trump who is facing 91 Felony Counts in four separate criminal cases. Hes also now facing the dissolution of his Business Empire due to a devastating new ruling in the new York Attorney general Multibillion Dollar Fraud Suit against him. Donald trump is nevertheless leading the entire field of other republican candidates by roughly 40 points nationally, and by more than 30 points in each of the early voting states. Tonight, instead of debating those challengers, trump held an event in michigan that was designed to sort of look like he was maybe supporting autoworkers. But unlike President Biden, who yesterday actually walked the picket line with actual striking uaw workers, tonight, mr. Trump appeared at an invitation only event, at a nonunion Auto Parts Supplier where he was invited to speak by the management. Meanwhile, among his challengers, among his rivals this is what it sounded like for one republican president ial campaign nikki haley, to slam a car door on another candidate, when he told Vikram A Swami in response to a question about tiktok that every time she hears him speak, she feels a little dumber. Were only ever going to get to declaring independence from china, which i favor, if we actually win. All the democrats are running rampant, reaching the next generation 3 to 1, theres exactly one person in the Republican Party which talks of big game about reaching a people, and that is me. This is infuriating because tiktok is one of the most dangerous Social Media Apps that we could have. And what honestly, every time i hear you i feel a little bit dumber for what you say. Veteran political reporter mark caputo watching the debate, posted online this phrase. He said, find you someone to love you as much as nikki haley hates Vivek Ramaswamy. I dont know if that is good advice for finding love but it is advice based in the reality of tonights debate. You know what i did with my First Company . We opened the subsidiary in trying to, you know what i did that was different than any other company . We got the heck out of their. When i started my next company wait, wait, wait. The reality is just because putin is not putins an evil dictator, it does not mean that ukraine is good. This is a country that has banned an Oppositional Party a win for russia is a win for china i forgot, you like china. You will have your chance in just a moment. Hurling insults is not helping. Hurling of personal insults was the most dynamic experience that any of us watching this debate had, but that was arguably not a great tactic in terms of distinguishing oneself as a candidate. There was also an interesting dynamic tonight with the moderators. At least one of the moderators, she is the only one of tonights three moderators who has some experience moderating debates. Weve all had various roles, we know its difficult, not casting aspersions on any of our colleagues at the fox network, but it was miss calderon who in her questioning sort of distinguished herself by telling the Listening Audience tonight some things are not used to hearing on fox. She mentioned, for example, that when it comes to fentanyl, 90 of fentanyl is caught at the u. S. Border and most is brought by american citizens. That is something fox audiences may never have heard on their television before. She also confronted former Vice President mike pence with this question about the Lgbtq Community right now. It was a question, again that fox viewers are not used to hearing, and it elicited at first, a sort of General Platitude for mr. Pence and then a somewhat chilling threat towards that community. The department of Homeland Security warns that violence against lgbtq plus people is on the rise and intensifying. According to a recent study, members of that community are nine times more likely to be victims of violent hate crimes. As president , how would you protect this community from Violent Attacks and discrimination . As president of the United States i would stand up for the safety, and Civil Liberties of every american. From every background. And i want the American People to know that. We will stand up for the rights of parents and we will pass a federal ban on transgender clinical or surgical surgery, anywhere in the country. Mike pence making remarkable pivot right there. There is more to recap in terms of what happened at tonights debate. I dont exactly know what to pick as highlights, memorable moments. To my mind, i feel like nikki haley telling Vivek Ramaswamy please stop talking, you are ruining everything, and we dont have much, was sort of a memorable thing. But, honestly, i dont know what has to pull out to say this was important. You know, im thinking of the Compliment Sandwich you do when youre editing, you Say Something nice, critique, something nice. So i will say that some of the questions were good, and there were moments in the debate that were recognizably politicians talking about policy. Even if its bad like what they want to do on tax cuts. The entire thing was a complete waste. Thats the middle of the sandwich. The whole thing is like acting like donald trump doesnt exist. And thats the person theyre running against. Theyre not running against joe biden. They dont know, that is what is so interesting when he is not there, they know something has been broken in the Republican Party. But they dont know what the thing is after. Like, you hear them sometimes you feel like youre in a time warp, tim scott speaking about balance amendments, and im not a Republican Base member but i know your base doesnt care about that. I know that im an msnbc host, how do you not know that . You do this for a living . How about everyone shedding attorney honoring the fact that they are in a Ronald Reagan library while they know that there is not even any resemblance whatsoever of Ronald Reagan republicans that are currently in office. If there are, they are leaving at the side door. If i could just agree with nikki haley on something tonight, i do feel dumber. After experiencing that debate, because if any, what is it seven people . If they could have made donald trump appeared to have more stature as a politician, those are the seven people who could do it because of the dynamic between them . The quibbling stuff . It was very xiaojie. There were a lot of good to shade moments, you know tim scott Throwing Shade at ramaswamy, nikki haley Throwing Shade at ramaswamy, he took a lot of incoming. But it felt like a Student Council debate, more than any one that has any plausible opportunity to be president. Even if donald trump wasnt in the race, none of them came across as having the stature of an executive. They all seemed like fellow legislators bickering about the things theyve done. You know tim scott kept talking about the bills that he has gone into committee. Okay, well, congratulations, tim scott. Nikki haley bickering about things she did as governor, and fighting with tim scott about it. It felt very small. And i think if i were and again, i too, i cant relate to the Republican Base, but none of them made an argument that sounded like an argument to be president of the United States. The only person i think who was trying to do that, and was literally not allowed to get a word in was dug. He kept saying from the wings, hey, over here on the governor of an energy state, were talking about energy, were talking about what ive done on energy, and from the moderator, we got no that was a little dynamism there. Its a person who is the least viable candidate on a stage of a viable candidate was burgum, was actually trying to say whatever has been going on in washington i dont know, ive never worked their. Im a governor of an interesting state that has had some policy successes. But he was so marginal to the conversation both physically in terms of the way that he was treated, insulting the way he was treated, that the one person who couldve maybe distinguish himself along the lines really wasnt allowed to. Can i just add one more thing . Of course. The other thing, the giant helium balloon floating over their heads as this was happening is that the guy who wasnt there threatened to put to death the highest ranking general in the United States. And theyre talking about Law And Order, and crime, fentanyl, whos bringing the fentanyl, is it the people in mexico, we need to militarize the border, the guy you are running against that you purportedly believe shouldnt be president because youre there, youre there and you should think you should be president instead of him said he wanted to put to death general mark milley. This didnt even come up. It didnt come up, and a little later we will play the responds that general milley had to that claim which was absolutely bone chilling. But yes, they did not ask about that for all the Law And Order, the rule of law discussion tonight as they mentioned, not a single question about what is going on with the former president who therell running against, facing 91 Felony Counts. Rachel, if you were to believe what you heard tonight and took it at face value than you would have to believe that is the worst thing. Were talking about that, this is a democracy everyone make up your own mind including voters, but if you listen to republican primary voters, personally interview folks, or through polling, there are other things that people are worried about with donald trump. Whether it is the fraud that some people care about, the threats. Taking the party of course. Not having a core. You could find a bunch of things that relate to peoples lives and his record, on all they had was a kind of political complained that its not fair that he is treating them and their debate tonight like it doesnt matter. I was the one thing that more than one of them, kristie, desantis and others criticize. Ari, it was a pivot party. We know how expensive political ads are. They dont have to pay a dime for this, they had an opportunity for an hour to look into the camera and say to the American People, heres the policies i want to put forward, right . Every single thing they were asked about the autoworkers strike, they pivoted. Pivot line, how about the borderline, come on out you want to go after joe biden, you want to talk about immigration we can do that over here. But it was stunning to me how many good questions were asked and how many few were actually answered. There were two things are really struck me, two things that in my career as a journalist covering this, republicans have often wanted to talk about. One is the Affordable Care act, which to their credit they asked about, i thought the questions were pretty good. They asked about the Affordable Care act, no one has any total word salad and lets move on. Same thing with the auto strike. What answer did we get . We got away with that. But how about an answer . The other thing that they have from my little curl to talk about was abortion. They like to talk about abortion. Republicans like to talk about abortion, theyve talked about abortion a lot as a political journalist. They got it up in Abortion Question, desantis spent 45 seconds attacking donald trump from the right on abortion and then it was like done with that. Chris christie pulled off the rare abortion to fentanyl to Treatment Double Pivot to get away from the issue as fast as possible, because all of a sudden this thing that they have spent decades talking about they do not want to talk about. On that point, ron desantis i thought had the biggest fail on the Abortion Question because hes the guy with the sixweek abortion ban. It is the most relevant to his political problems, right now, and his answer was to say well its not a problem because i want i want to landslide victory, years before i did the sixweek abortion ban. Its irrelevant that you are reelected, they reelected due not thinking you would do a sixweek abortion ban. That was a classic moment of political cavernous, right . Here you have everybody who is theyre saying republicans are losing elections they might otherwise win because people dont like them on abortion rights. It is just true, plain true. Everybody honestly will admit that. And for desantis to go up there and say i really think that prolife voters and the prolife cause is being unfairly blamed for our losses, look at me. I did something before my sixweek ban. I mean, its not just that he is lying in your face, and the pulling off the timeline switcheroo, its what he is saying is false. Its bad for his party that he is telling them the something that is hurting them is not hurting them. And he needs to workshop someone asked a workshop how you will defend your sixweek ban. Thats how youre gonna do it, among offend league group, Republican Voters you have to come up with a message about how you will defend your sixweek ban, they still dont, you know, Donald Trumps line in that interview he says once they get the number of weeks right, that is whats just a number of weeks. Theyre all gonna love. It its a deal. No one has come up with anything, the only person who has tried to do something, again nikki haley in the last debate, otherwise about this, i dont think she was amazing tonight, i still think if you gave me a magic wand and you could create a conditions under which was possible someone else gets a nomination, oneonone haley versus trump, at least would be something. It would at least be a place for the 30 to 40 of the party maybe that doesnt maybe want trump to be the nominee to consolidate around. Other than that she is the most skilled, effective candidate, among them. Among all these and viable candidates she as a non viable candidate has skills as a candidate. Which is wild because she was not a very good politician in South Carolina, shes improved over the course she got better. She sees and she has a bs detector that has appeal. How do you think donald trump feels tonight . Like this didnt matter. Aside from his concerns about wearing a Prison Jumpsuit his final years, which i think is front of mind i think he is focus on the fact that his apartment in trump tower could get seized. I dont think his mind is on this foolishness tonight, because it doesnt matter, and he knows it doesnt matter. Let me as a control room to pull up soundbite number six. Its twoparter, it has tim scott and Vivek Ramaswamy in it, just because one of the things trump was having to think about tonights his Counter Programming in this debate, instead of just going on the elon musk machine like he did at the first debate, this time he decided to do what was effectively an anti union event, invited by management to a nonunion shop to complain about union for chris in the middle of the auto strike. Hes complaining about workers, or union bosses . Because that is actually the needle that trump threads . Tries to thread. He didnt 2016. And here is how two of the candidates onstage tonight address this, this is right off the top at the debate, if anybody saw any of this debate before they started pounding themselves in that head because it felt better and turned it off, this is probably the part they saw. They want fourday french work weeks but more money, they want more benefits working fewer hours, that is simply not going to stand. I understand the hardship is not a choice, but victimhood is a choice. And we choose to be victorious in the United States of america. You know if i was giving advice to those workers i would say go picket in front of the white house in washington d. C. What . Dont pick it in front of your employer who you are striking for better wages instead do a political thing that i suggest, because we are playing the victim. I mean, i will say whatever your view is of Labor Politics in america, and where that falls on the ideological number line and how it intersects with electoral politics, i think most americans looking at the uaw strike have sympathy with uaw workers. This watching this tonight there was nothing there, it was absolutely the opposite of that in a way that i think was very poorly played. I think it is actually going to make trump look even worse. Go ahead. No acknowledgment, right. Four day work week, the pay increase they want, no acknowledgment that auto workers pay has been going down for the last decade. Right . If you look at it in a vacuum, what are they asking for, put it in perspective, its noteworthy, join our talking about this earlier tonight. Theres a lot of politicians that say theyre prounion but joe biden made a serious move yesterday actually walking the picket line, because he knows donald trump was able to peel union working voters away in 2016, and joe biden is making it clear, i stand with you. So to watch those candidates tonight, either dismiss or mock these autoworkers, its so surprising to me because when you think about the populace message that trump is so dependent on, im like were you talking to tonight . Especially tim scott. I think he has carved out would could be the dumbest political position on a venue of them. Its position the first question of the night actually . His position is they should get fired. When he gets up there and says what do they want, of for the work we can more money. Everybody watching was like yes. We would all like to before they work week and more money. Who wouldnt . In any Work Situation is a man they should get paid less for our. Most are currently working a sixday work week. They are looking at this like these people are taking a smoke break for six horse. I invite you to stand on the line and take their jobs for one day, and then judge it, tim scott. Or to the Vikram Astronomy My company, my company, im sorry, im probably the most probusiness person sitting here on this panel but it drives me bananas to watch someone in that seat to try to say that being the president of the United States, running a country of 330 Million People is the same as that big boy startup, sorry, bud. Especially since he took what, as medicine eviscerated on, took 750,000 and Hedge Fund Bonuses and then took a affirmative action scholarship, and didnt see the irony in that. When you look at the public support for union you factcheck ritual why donald trump was making a management event. But the public support for the union cause as large enough in the center and some of the center right that donald trump wanted to fake a photo op,. Biden was there yesterday and trump wanted the Pr Photo Version of i went out there to. Now you peel back the layer you look past the photo and find out it wasnt meeting with the bosses and not the strikers. I think that speaks to why, in just a funny thing to say, he has a feeling for how to fake fraud or supported the folks on the stay on the stage who are Playing Of Troll Version of it. Thats exactly what im trying to say. Donald trump has a theory of the he knows the con he is trying to pull off which is i hate all these people as much as you do, i hate the establishment, im for you i will blow things up i hate to see people you hate and its rigged and im not part of the club. He has a way of channeling that which is very effective, they dont have a theory of what they are trying to do to speak to that same base. Unless the whole point of tonights debate, which i am on all of us has been saying loud and proud, had no point, maybe the point of tonights debate was to get whoever to a quid flint of the Koch Brothers to get the donor class Republican Party saying okay, there is the person who will side with me against unions and will side with me in business terms even in ways that a repellent voters. Thats what i dont get, that donor class if to ron desantis was recording ten months ago, right . I think it was donald trump who was in iowa and thats when ron desantis went seeming to people with money bags and went to their houses and said im trump without the indictments boys. And then a minute later he launched a war against his knee. And there are like, forget it. And they went on to tim scott for five minutes and now theyre antuna kayleigh. That goes back to what joy was saying, tim scott made the dumbest move, i dont understand Ron Desantiss voter is, right . If youre anti union worker, and your anti business, whats your lane . The other draw ball here and he actually needed to do the most tonight, hes pinterest in the polls more than anyone else. He needed something, he got nothing. Desantis . Desantis. He actually dodged a bullet because this is the guy who has driven what 700,000 or so latino workers out of his state, they are now working in alabama and georgia and getting arrested on the way home, the Mexican Government is now involved in one of these cases, and that is during hurricane season, when they need the labor to do things like construction and when the Agricultural Industry is screaming, this guy is destroying us, when disney is Rethinking Investing in the state of florida, he is the most Anti Business Guy of there. He has done the worst job in terms of growing his state and he is still touting 2018 numbers to pretend that things are doing well, and and it cost so much to go to the grocery store, you know what your produce cost so much because there are no pictures in florida there to pick the produce to bring them to Grocery Stores i thought it was an interesting moment again, there is sort of this obituary about the Desantis Campaign that should have been written even though what is this, october, september . It was amazing to me, again i thought the moderators did a good job, he he had nothing on the insurance question, those are fascinating moments. Not a policy question, but The Cost Of Living in the state. People dont have Health Insurance underway worst rape then they do in the rest of the country. No answer, insurance in florida has been a property insurance, because it is a climate question. Its stunning that you have a climate denying governor in Florida State where you cannot get Home Insurance anymore because private insurers are like im sorry, its hurricane season. Thats a no for me. Ron desantis has no answer. At this point the state is the only place you can cause your insurance. An unsustainable place to live long term. I just thought, he is someone obviously he is in this media bubble and when he was also at that media bubble his whole thing was to yell at the reporter to make a clip for fox news. It was interesting to me this is basically blocking and tackling, heres a thing about your state, what is your response . The kind of thing you would be prepped for and it seems like nothing. Again, just as a basic level of competency, it was striking. We will take a break, we have a lot more of the postdebate coverage. In just a few minutes, we will be speaking live with California Governor Gavin Newsom from the side of tonights debate. I am looking forward to hear what he has to say about it. Stay with us, we will be right back. Back everyone in the state has been clear about that, i vote donald trump off the island right now. This guy has not only divided our party, he has divided families all over this country. He has divided friends all over this country, i will say what everyone else has not said, who has sat at thanksgiving dinner, birthday dinner, and can have a conversation if they disagree with donald trump. He needs to be voted off the island, and he needs to be processed. O be processed. aidyl hi, im aidyl, and i lost 90 pounds on golo. I struggled with weight loss and weight gain my entire life. With all the yoyo dieting i did in the past, i would lose 20, 30, 50 pounds just to gain them over and over again. Thanks to golo, ive been able to steadily go down the sizes in my closet and keep the weight off. For the first time in forever, i feel in control. announcer change your life at golo. Com. Thats golo. 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I have people come up to me all the time and ask me, does it really work . And all i have to say is, here i am. It works. My advice for everyone is to go with golo. It will release your fat and it will release you. First let me say, im glad vivek pulled out of his business in 2018 in china, that must have been about the time he decided to vote in president ial elections. Sick burn. Joining us now is the democratic governor of the great state of california gavin newsom whos decided to himself wade into the worlds most pleasant spin room. In the wake of this debate, Governor Newsom, nice to, see look like youre having a great time. Im having a great time, but if that was the best moment for mike pence, it was not a great night for republican friends. I mean, objectively, what are we going to be talking about, rachel, in 72 hours . Im still getting over the pence comment about the sex joke, i dont see that it is a little strange. I know you guys showed the clip, mark that was a nothing burner. Honestly more disappointing than i was expecting. Well, we have this unusual situation where Everybody Knows that this is kind of a not a sideshow, but a second stage when you have a de facto nominee already on the republican side, but somebody who has 91 felonies pending against him. You have these other people who are also running, none of whom seem to be attracting any interest from Republican Voters at all. And i dont want to ask you to advise your republican friends there, but i do have to ask if you think that the republican primary process has a purpose, and whether tonights debate had a purpose. Whether did any good . I mean, saluting perhaps, but you are right, it was the xfl, it was the jv, team i thought, and i mean this. I dont mean to play games here. I thought it would be more of a president ial debate, but i was not even convinced we saw the next Vice President nominee for donald trump on the stage. So look, from trumps perspective tonight, there was no break out, there was feeble attempts to take shots at trump for not showing up. But i honestly, and i mean this in the spin room, i know im with you rachel, i really believe that tonight was the biden agenda. They identified problems, biden is not only identified solutions, he has gotten them passed bipartisan way to address so many of the issues republicans brought up. They brought up no other Alternative Strategy to meaningfully address the issue of inflations, to address the issue the continued economic growth, they offered nothing in the way of International Foreign policy, and particularly novel. So i thought biden honestly was the big winner tonight. In terms of some of the specific proposals we have gotten from these candidates tonight, one of the more memorable proposals possibly was former Vice President mike pence saying he would solve School Shootings by instituting a fast Death Penalty process, a federal expedited and Death Penalty for School Shooters and attacked Governor Ron Desantis in the fact that the Parkland Shooter is alive and behind bars, as not being killed yet. Just wanted your reaction to that . Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic. He has been saying this now for months. I cringe every time we hear this. Has anyone read any of these manifestos . I just finished the buffalo manifesto. Every one of these manifestos, they talk about the fact that they believe they are either going to be, killed or take their own life. What a joke that somehow is a deterrence. Number one killer. Number one killer of our kids as guns. That was his solution . And i was at the debate of the next president of the United States on how to deal with Mass Shootings . I dont disqualify, but honestly for a former Vice President , pathetic. Let me ask you about the discussion tonight about the auto workers strike . Obviously this is all three of the big American Auto companies. United auto workers strike that is very painful for their members. Honestly in terms of the politics and objects of, it a strike where a lot of americans are very much a feel for the auto workers, especially given that what we know about the record profits the industry itself has been enjoying, we saw President Biden literally on the picket line striking workers yesterday. We saw former Vice President donald trump tonight instead of attending the debate, he was invited by management to a nonunion firm or he criticized autoworkers, and criticize unions there. We also saw tim scott tonight say the real problem is that workers are asking for too much. It feels like it is visiting from another planet these baltics, but i have to ask you assessment. Number one, i was really proud to see the president on the picket line. It was one of the best days in months. It is great to see him out there with working folks. It was also not lost on me the assault, the attacks on quote unquote union masses, meaning union leaders. All they want is a fair living wage. All they want is their fair share. For all the rhetoric republicans try to be populists, talk about Finding Attachment to blue collar workers, they offered nothing tonight. The rhetoric from scotts reprehensible. The rhetoric from the others was again more Union Bashing which over and over again from republican candidates. It was very stale. As you said, i mean, the idea that donald trump could lead claims to any association with these striking workers, and goes to non union sharp, again another point. A fundamental contrast to daylight and darkness. And governor, we have remarked here, i have remarked us and we started our, coverage our response, tonight for all the discussion of Law And Order and rule of law, and the problem of crime, and standing up for Law Enforcement tonight. It is just this big obvious nonreference to the leading Republican Party candidate which is facing some felony criminal charges in four different jurisdictions right now. It is just fundamentally capital a awkward. But the other thing that all the campaigns are trying to do tonight, was cast dispersions pacific leon california, and injecting cities like San Francisco, los angeles, describing them as unlivable because of crime and that being a problem that the Democratic Party and President Biden, governors like yourself should have down to four. Let me give you a chance to respond to that as well. Well, it is a thing. In jacksonville, in miami, they have substantially higher rates than million San Francisco. Jacksonville florida and Miami Florida have higher murder rates then new york city. Eight out of the top ten states in america a out of the top ten murder states are all red states. I dont know why they didnt bring that up. Why they bought a property crime rate, a Violent Crime rates in tennessee and arkansas, South Carolina they omitted all of that. It is the theme called and still rhetoric, and their narrative does not fit the facts. We have to confront that more forcefully, that is an issue im very mindful of. Wheels after confronting fundamental issues around retail theft and crime, generally all of us have to own that. But the spin is just that i think it is important that the facts are brought to light, and we have a responsibility to do that as democrats, not just in terms of responding to their assault, when i think him more proactive education including the most Energy Independent we have ever been in our history. Mike pence may want to look that up as well. Now California Governor Gavin Newsom, the most popular man in the spin room in simi valley tonight, we want to get off her dance, cried because we know have lots of others trying to get on. Thank you so much for joining us. Good to be with you, rachel. All right. Governor some. It was an interesting role in Democratic Politics but, now about a debate ron desantis. As ron desantis falls out of the top tier of republican candidates, Governor Newsom is not himself a candidate for president , but has sort of decided to clean up after President Biden with this one on one thing he is doing with desantis. What does that mean, chris hayes . Well, you know, at any given moment there are legions of politicians who future is president in the air. I dont think it is crazy to think that govern newsom is among those folks, but he is not alone obviously. I do think theres Something Interesting about this kind, of this red state, blue state model that ends up california, greg abbott, and love to run against california. Texas is the opposite of california. We understand his was to run against california, and i think theres Something Interesting there because the states really do have different social spending, social safety net, its not really are defending, different Policy Choices they have made. I do think making the case for a fuller social safety net, and anne it is a little salty but he has done a lot of interesting, and he is sort of the fantasy team of a lot of democrats who would like to see a younger look. They think about the california governor a lot. He has done things like increased the tax on firearms, the highest tax on firearms in the entire country to discourage the sales of Assault Weapons. Just recently he is talking about the idea there should be an Assault Weapons bans. He is right about miami attacks and San Francisco in los angeles. Even when i lived in florida, i was there 14, years miami has crime that includes gangs that use ak47s. That is a thing that was a problem. The gangs there are incredibly violent. There is lots of Violent Crime in miami. People think south beach is miami, it is a whole totally different city. So when people think florida, they think about south beach and disney. They dont think about cities like miami. So there is a lot of crime. Also, lets point out that florida now has the net highest death rate from covid. We made very different choices gavin newsom and ron desantis on the covid response. Now the most elderly state in the Union Florida has the highest death rate because of his policies, and antivax surgeon general. So the two of these men who were supposed to debate, first of all it is going to be a mauling. Gavin newsom is actually good at abating, and he has a personality. Ron desantis is bad at debating, and doesnt have a personality. He is more a hes good at yelling at journalists, hes good at screaming at journalists. He is not so good but faking being a human. So it is going to be interesting, because we see gavin newsom on fox goahead to head with fox anchors who are hostile to him, and hes able to handle it in a way that full of personality. He knows how to do this, so i think ron desantis thinks he wants that debate, i dont think he really wants that. I was just going to say, in the sort of idea of different models of governance, i do think it is interesting and can be substantive in terms of debate. Rachel, you made this point, before but i do think it is not the model of government i think its, good Buddy Doug Burgum it is a few members in brooklyn is the sides of the state he governs. So it is not that big a group of people. But again, he was trying to make some case of, here is a template for what republican governance could look like. Then, i thought it was at least grounded in something other than hold on, i dont think ron desantis is good at yelling at journalists. Right . Rachel said he is better oneonone, because ron desantis ever agreed to sit down oneonone with any of you . Because he doesnt with me. And his office doesnt take our calls. So if you are actually good, if he is good oneonone, to say yes, can he stand at a podium and protected, and shout down people that are not on equal footing, have added. So can anyone. But to say ron desantis is good oneonone, i invite him to sit down with anyone of us and have an honest concert conversation. Is not willing to get in the room. Much more of our recap of tonights pub Republican Debate. If you did not know why governor gavin newsom is talking about when he said the sex comments, we hadnt already played that, because im very but we will do, it and we wont Come Back To Me afterwards. I dont want to talk about. Here it comes, then it commercials, and i will come back. When you have the president of the United States sleeping with a member of the Teachers Union, there is no chance that you can take the stranglehold away from the Teachers Union every day. Full disclosure, chris, you mentioned the president situation, my wife isnt a member of the Teachers Union, but i have to admit i have been sleeping with a teacher for 38 years. Full disclosure. With fastsigns, create custom graphics that get tails and tongues wagging. Fastsigns. Make your statement. If you struggle. And struggle. And struggle with cpap. Okay, right before the break, you should check out inspire. No mask. No hose. Just sleep. Inspire. Sleep apnea innovation. Learn more and view Important Safety Information at inspiresleep. Com we played the two Oblique Sex Reference as we are not going to talk about. It was not that oblique. Sleeping with is not okay, we are not going to do that again. Im sorry, you have to wait until it is rollover to new anchors. I have about five minutes on. Jen psaki is joining, us and jen as a new member of this panel, and now a motive ember of this poll. You guys want to remember the terrible you have to play. You have to. Play it. Im. Up nobody has veto, power i want to look in the camera right now, tell you, donovan or your, watching you cant help yourself. I know you are watching. And you are not here tonight, not because of polls, and not because of indictments, you are not here tonight because you are afraid of being on the stage and defending your record. You are ducking these things. Let me tell you what happened, you are doing, that nobody here is going to call you donald trump, anymore we are going to call you donald back. Governor desantis member of the you heard that. Donald black has been sleeping with a teacher for 20 years. The triumph of Chris Christie in the last round of republican primary debates was when he dismantled marco rubio live on television as not a real boy, by saying you have been practicing this thing, you have been practicing, it practicing, it is all you are capable of, saying it is coming out and making it sound like a robot. Chris christie the man told him by saying im alive human, and can have spontaneous thoughts, and say things that were not cooked up in a focus group. Then he just buried himself. It was like when he started talking, i thought he was going to do that, because i thought he was going to speak to the camera which is what he was doing, i thought he was going to make donald trump go crazy, and truth social something crazy, instead he and it with that very cringe line. Her story was pointing, out it is happening at a time when if you are going to take on donald, trump illustrated just suggest the execution of the top Military Officer in the United States. So if we are going to go after him on something, and say i have a new nickname for you, maybe not the day for that. Especially if it is going to land that way. It just felt like he is the most disappointing. There was a theory of the case that had donald trump actually shown up on the debate stage, it was Chris Christie that would take him apart. Now i think that was not really he is really not that good. Hes not as good as he used to be. I dont know, maybe he will get better, im not sure. I will say, we do have a little bit of, news i dont know if we count as news. Since we have been on the, air at the Trump Campaign as it is that he definitely wont be there for the next one either. I dont think anybody expected him to be there. It is interesting they are making these candidates pledge that they will support the 2024 nominee no matter who it is, as a condition of participating in these things. I think her songs that is a condition, there is no chance donald trump could right, and these debates have been on, fox and careful to say that the journalist to it is a tough thing, im not here to single it out, but as a political matter, fox or so aligned itself with the rightwing maga movement, and had to pay over 700 million because of the links they want to support the big lie, which is linked to the insurrection. What do they get back for it . Not that good journalist would look at it this way, but a lot of reporting they did, what do they get back for it . He lost a, debate see storms on them, tonight and im sure Chris Christie is thinking i had that great disney reference, and it is now being overshadowed by the announcement that he can skip all these debates. Donald duck them in the current vernacular on twitter. As they say. As one says. And get away with it. So i want to follow your example, being fair, there is a Political Tension here of how much fox and the rightwing media has given up to trump, and how little hes giving back. That is for him a flex to the electorate to say im above all of them. Theres also something so weird to me about the spectacle, particularly after all of this after the midterms, donald trump was at a low point, probably the lowest point he had publicly been so january six. If you look at the polling, a lot of folks in the political establishment, even the base he wanted to move past trump. That was true after january 6th when his numbers were down, throughout the midterms and people said all of a second, all of the candidates this guy back did really poorly. We ran basically Randomized Controlled Trial in a number of states. We had a not trump candidate, and a trump candidate, look it was 5 to 6 point delta, why are we doing this again . Then we watch them sleep walk into this trap again. It is so bizarre to me when you think about, there is something in the aggregate, the different personalities of coalitions. The democrats are way more neurotic than the republicans are. I think the democrats could stand up and be a little nest neurotic in republicans could be a bit more neurotic. More bedwetting on one side left on the other. If this were the democratic, side yes, he is pulling, ahead yesterday bunch of polls where you look at biden, but you are really going to go into next year where he is going to stand trial and stand trial for the first attempt on the maybe he will be convicted of it . You think that is not going to change the political stature of your party where his chances of being elected and everyone is going to shrug the shoulders and throwing the towel early and say we will just do that guy. What are you doing . You wonder how a man who has 92 criminal counts against him, and is threatening to execute a Military General of the United States, that level of mediocrity and opposition him is actually shocking. That there are no stays where there is no impressive alternative, to these again, it is the only seven people who could look less impressive than donald trump. We try to overthrow the government. And with that, we have more of our special coverage to come here tonight. Stay with us. We will be right back. Right back. I sold that. And you can manage it all in one place. I built this. And it was easy, with a partner that puts you first. Godaddy. Thursday night football on prime. Its on. Thursday night football is on, as the Detroit Lions take on the green bay packers. Stream thursday night football. Only on prime. Hi, im jason and ive lost 202 pounds on golo. So the first time i ever seen a golo advertisement, with a partner that puts you first. I said, yeah, whatever. Theres no way this works like this. And threw it to the side. A couple weeks later, i seen it again after getting not so pleasant news from my physician. I was 424 pounds, and my doctor was recommending weight loss surgery. To avoid the surgery, i had to make a change. So i decided to go with golo and its changed my life. When i first started golo and taking release, my cravings, they went away. And i was so surprised. You feel that your body is working and functioning the way it should be and you feel energized. Golo has improved my life in so many ways. Im able to stand and actually make dinner. Im able to clean my house. Im able to do just simple tasks that a lot of people call simple, but when youre extremely heavy theyre not so simple. Golo is real and when you take release and follow the plan, it works. Welcome back to our special coverage of the second republican president ial primary debate. Im Rachel Maddow here at nbc with my colleague john, psaki chris, tased joy reid, i remember, steph ruhle. It does not get better than this. Just a quick reminder of what a lot of this debate was like for a lot of the time that this was happening tonight, it sounded like this. Excuse me. Excuse me. Thank you for speaking and interrupting. If i may finish. You cant be on both sides. Gentlemen, you will have your turn. If i may address i actually agree with ron desantis. I know that you think people saying things that made, sense that wasnt, edited that is what it sounded, like and that is just the treat we all got. Congratulations. The sound of your republican network, or sorting things out. Again, there were seven republican candidates on roughly 40 points nationally was not there. The moderators did not ask about them. But they Joe Biden Hides in his, Basement Animal Answer as to why he is raising the debt the way he has done. And donald trump hides behind the war walls of his golf, club wont show up here to answer questions, like on the rest of us. He puts seven trillion on the, day he should be in this room to answer the questions of for what we are talking about and suffering. Donald trump is missing, he should be on the stage tonight. He owes it to you to defend his record where he should set the stage for the inflation that we have. To our colleague ariza point from earlier this evening, you would think in hearing todays candidates talk about donald trump, that the worst thing he ever did was not appear at this debate tonight. They apparently feel like that is safe territory on which to attack him. But the dozens of felonies, and the ruling just yesterday that he may lose his entire Business Empire because of a finding of fraud in the new york state court, that stuff just wasnt of for discussion even with him as the de facto nominee. The unimpeachable front runner at this point of this field. Theres one interesting moment tonight from candidate tim, scott senator tim scott of South Carolina where he hit florida Governor Ron Desantis on a previous statement that the teaching of black history, and lots of other things, and he at one point made the claim that there were good things about history. He has been asked to account for this stuff in people, up and give them skills the use to see the defining feature of the moral. And it isnt hard things but tim scott, and there come to task on it, and never got in his own way. America suffered because of slavery, but we have overcome that. We are the greatest nation on earth, because we faced our demons in the mirror, and made a decision. Our nation is why i can say i have been discriminated against, but america is not a racist country. Never ever doubt who we are. We are the greatest country on gods green earth. Joining us now is Former Rnc Chairman Michael Steele. Michael, i wanted to play, that because that is part of what you want to talk about tonight. Tell me about why that moment spoke to tonight. It didnt. It was a load of crock. A black man sitting talking about there is no, racism no discrimination, no racism, this debate was just a farce. I have been sitting here listening to folks, and i have to give you all for actually trying to do analysis of trying to do analysis of what was the most amazing crap show of a debate we have done. I have done an odd of debates in my 45 years of politics, and this thing was an embarrassment. It was a national embarrassment. There was a embarrassment for his national party. Donald trump did not have to show up. There is these folks. He will be at 62 who weeks for sure, there is no doubt about. At the reality when you have a candidate who can talk about slavery. When you have two candidates arguing over curtains. When you have another candidate sitting there saying putin is a bad guy, but i still love him. Where do you go . You are standing in political hallowed ground. At the reagan library, and this struck me more than anything else. You have these guys standing here in this library, reagan took russia to task. Reagan bankrupted russia. He put it on a sneeze, broke, it and now one of them could even talk about that. Not one of them could connect that. To this moment of what is happening with ukraine. Thats us a lot about this troop of candidates, and the state of this party. And the other thing is anne i dont know why you are tied with these people. How does that happen . What are you doing . Why cant you communicate coherently to the American People you got this, and then you have what we have done in a last two years . I dont get it. So this is the whole campaign, it is setting itself up to be a donald trump bloodbath on the constitution, on democracy, because he is going to continue to appeal to the lowest common denominator because seemingly, no one knows how to counter that narrative. Michael, let me put my theory of the case to you. I dont think you will agree with, it which is why well get to, because i would like to hear your rejoin into it. I feel like what is happening in this republican primary, and in republican politics right now, is that the Republican Party, the Republican Base, the republican electorate has effectively decided they do not really want to do politics anymore. They are not all that interested in what politics is, and governing, and political campaigning, and policy competition, and all that stuff. They are not interested. They would prefer to have a strong man, a particular strongman who they already know and like, and preferred to have that. And that is what they want instead of politics. So you get all these other candidates up, there and theyre having a political, fight they are talking about politics, behaving like politicians. Whether or not they have been politicians before, they are doing politics. The Republican Party says no to all of, them almost an equal measure, because they prefer a strong man who is going to and politics, and do something that is not about Democratic Political competition. So, the Democratic Party has their candidate, they have the incumbent president , theyre putting up a political campaign, that appeals to democrats, generally speaking, small the democrats. But the Republican Party is driven by something more fundamental, and it makes all of these candidates look as small as they look. That is my theory of the, case but i bet you dont agree. You would bet, wrong you would lose some money on that one. You would lose some money on that one. I actually do agree with that. I think that is why you see the stultifying commentary, and the awkward body language, and the Vivek Ramaswamy, i will swarm all over you narrative where he doesnt give anyone a chance to talk. Because if he keeps running his mouth, right, he thinks with every word that is uttered, he is smarter and smarter. Nikki haley nailed it when she said no, we are all getting dumber, and dumber, and dumber. So there is this whole thing playing out, it is playing out as this crazy kind of, i dont know how to do what i should be doing to be president kind of thing. Because, at its core, the base does not want it to. You are absolutely right. The base does not want to. They want a strongman, they want a nay do not want to hang out with people who look like me. If they do not want to talk to people who look like you and act like, you and live where you live. And this is the america they are trying to set up. They think they will feel safer in it. They think they will be safer in it. The reality of it is, no. Because out a certain point, it comes back on you as well. It comes back on you as well, because you suddenly become other to someone else in that group. And that becomes an american. And that is the part when no one on that stage has that clarifying moment that you referenced earlier. Where, wow, someone is actually legitimately authoritatively not in a negative way, and this is how we lead the country. This is where we need to go. Nick connally, lets talk about. It health care, here is the plan. Our relationships and foreign, policy as we stand with our friends. No one is doing that. And so that is why tonight was such a show of people screaming, yelling, and talking about curtains. Well if that is the problem though. If you effectively of a very different kind of problem in the Republican Party than anywhere else in politics, and the problem is that the people who are going to vote in a republican primary in a Financial Support of the Republican Base do not want politics anymore, they want something else, then is it fair to ask a Political Party to solve for that problem . I mean if the Republican National committee and various candidates who are competing for the nomination in that party, they sort of seem like they are if this is not a political problem anymore . They can fix, it because they created it. How did frankenstein dr. Frankenstein deal with this monster . He did not know what to do. He was just us as the villagers. What do you do . I cant stop it. I created, it and i cant stop it. So there is no way for them to do it. We have seen this narrative play itself out to succumb more and more the will of the monster. They have become more and more like him. They give up on those founding principles which is what the great irony of being and wearing a cyber tonight stood out to me. None of them stand for Anything Reagan stood for. Ronald reagan on that stage, they would laugh at him. So, that is the problem for the party. Narratively, it is how do you then go about projecting that you want to be a Governing Majority, have a Governing Majority when you cant even get yourself off that stage properly . You cant convince the person standing next to you are left and right that you are a better candidate. When that question was asked, everybody punted. I would be like all of you need to go. None of you should be here. I appreciate all of we are going. Former rnc chairman, michael stelter, always on, On Particular tonight. Thank you very much to have you here. So Michael Steele, says what is the phrase . Crap show. Crap show. I was fascinated by the conversation, instead because i think something that is a bigger conversation we need to have, that isnt just about the republicans, like are we at the end of politics, because you, know it is a really brilliant point. The Republican Party exists in a world in which democratically, six out of the seven last president ial elections, they cant win the popular vote. Demographically, and the dispersion of multi racial communities makes it very hard for them to win through conventional politics. The things they want to do, and, Abortion Honey and popular, but you put it through politics, you put it through an election, and they cant win that. The things they want to do on, guns 70 of americans do not agree with it. They have to force these things do to him and he democratic means. Voter suppression is the only way. Gerrymandering is the only way they can actually get what they want. What they want is so unpopular, that when you put their ideas through the political process, they cannot win. The frustration and rage, not being able to ban all immigrants and get all the quote unquote legals out, you cant do it. Logistically, it is impossible. It is also, unpopular It Ruins Businesses in florida. So if you think about, it all of politics thousand raged a Certain Group of americans who cannot win politics. So what do you go, do you go to autocracy, and im not sure democrats have an answer. Biden will give this big speech of democracy tomorrow. Im not sure that democrats and biden have an answer to what do you do when Something Like 40 of American Adults have given up on politics, and say politics is not a, answer give me a strong man who can impose might minority positions on the rest of you, on women, we will make women give birth, we will make you do. It you dont want to do it, and politics will allow me to make you do it. How do we solve this . This is a fundamental problem. They are not participating in politics and policy, in the same way that fox news is no longer covering news or politics. It is agreements media. This takes us back to who is standing behind donald trump . Who is the mastermind behind his First Campaign . It was steve bannon who very clearly said, lets just break the system. That is what they are doing. The media has not figured it out either, lets be, honest the mainstream media, fox those of us complaining about the sneakers this is what im, saying the media cant figure out how to do something other than conventional politics from the 90s. So they are like both sides. Both sides. If we say donald trump is corrupt, we must cover hunter biden equally. We have to even steven, we have to find something to stay because we have to say trump is corrupt, we have seen as violent. So lets talk about the sneakers bidens old. They are the same, age but if we act like its equal to Donald Trumps, threat and the media hasnt figured out to do this either. So it is like the whole system as busted. I honestly dont think the media as an answer to, it and a regular campaign against that. I think part of the problem against the origin of this is, if you look at what is happening in washington right, now officially the day of the first impeachment here, and the government is about to shut down in two days. Basically covered mccarthy like, him dont like, him think he has flipped around on many issues he has, has no idea what to do either. He is also how to control his own party. Because you go back to the root point here, their party, the war party is to shut it, down their agenda is to burn the house down. They are not debating policy issues, just like they were asked Policy Questions tonight. And they want to burn it down, they want the government to not function, that is their agenda. So it is like negotiating with not a terrorist, but someone like that. It is not something you should be negotiating with. That is the challenge. I will just make one quick point, there is something to be said about President Bidens approach to talk about the problem. Him giving a speech on democracy right now is a good idea. What happens when you are having people in your in your political world who are trying to say, we do not want politics anymore, we did not want a democratic process, we dont have any kind of democratic process that all. We want to impose what we know is word for this country, because we are the only real, citizens there for our will should be imposed. The way you fight that is where standing up and saying, no we still need politics. No actually, it marks the is the way we solve the problems we have. Actually, we ought to stand up for the system of government we have. There is not a way to Fight Fire With fire, if what you are fighting against this people who are saying i want force, violence, and war as a way of settling things. What we are violent and political intimidation in our system, it makes it very hard to do politics. So you need to argue to get violence and intimidation out of the system. Theres no way to do except through democracy. Democracy is a process i totally agree. I think the thing i was going to say is, i thought the midterms were sort of a blueprint. The midterms, they tried to call the question, an existential level about democracy, trying to assemble what i think is a tenuous but durable pro democracy majority among the american electorate. A popular front from noam chomsky that is in favor of recognizable self governing form. It really is the question, it is hard to keep telling people, this this is the question being called, donald trump wants to end it. We were talking tonight about the millie comments, not just 1 million, comments they have been very explicit. This is a thing you see in places falling apart democratically. Who are the Security Forces loyal to . Right, he is explicitly, saying he wants loyal Security Forces. He wants to get rid of disloyal Security Forces. He does not like officers of the United States armed forces who wants to replace them, but he is mad at them because they would not undertake the coup. It is all very explicit about what his promising, and the only solution, the only thing we really have at our disposal is assembling this pro democracy majority once again. There are legal remedies, these may be convicted, and probably standing for offices nominee, and ultimately be up to and that desire to have governing to get rid of governing and have that force deciding how things go in the United States, it is a recurring problem in our country. Just another firsttime however felt. It jim crow was a former fascism. The fascism we had here in advance of world cup with americans who want to decide with the thing ive been working on for a long, time that was part of it as well. We have dealt with this recurring problem in our country before, we have learned from people who have dealt with it. But there is no way through it except through it. You have to confront it for what it is. When you talk to people, i think protector this more than anyone else, there are people who are so frustrated by politics that are not trump. They are not fascist. But they say, every four years you tell me after vote, and away Student Loans are still killing me. My rent is still killing. Me i still cant afford health care. I have obama care, it is still expensive, it is still hard for me to actually live. Especially younger people who are getting more cynical. This is the generation that are not getting more conservative as they get older, they want lgbtq folks to have their rights, they want to book ban, they are for it. They want him more pure mystic liberal world, but they are also frustrated with politics. They are not excited to vote. They are not excited. We keep telling, them i am the anti that is like on details you have to, vote you have to do, it you have to be on the local level, school board, but we complying them the only answer to fix this autocratic movements politics. When they say but the politics takes long, it does not get me where, what is it making my rent, lower it isnt making food cheaper, it is very difficult to keep them on the campaign. Part of standing up for democracy is making sure peoples needs and speculate as their ones are made manifest whether a percentage of government we vote for. That is part of what it, is not just to make this country great, but it is to make democracy work. To answer that existential question. We have much more in our special coverage of the second Republican Debate ahead. The former chair of the Republican Party as a crook show, because im quoting i can say that without getting in trouble. You will be right back. T back as you an ambassador, you literally 50,000 on corrupt in an eight 15 Million Dollar subsidized location. Beyond their crimes, do your homework, tim, because did you sit in the back then you sit in the back . He said, no youre the one who works in congress. You did it. You wanted your curtains. They were there before i showed up at the residence. You are you deserve both. And with kisqali, a treatment for people with metastatic breast cancer, you can have both. Kisqali is a pill that, when taken with an Aromatase Inhibitor is the only treatment of its kind shown to both help people live longer and improve or preserve quality of life. Because you shouldnt have to sacrifice one for the other. 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Were not architects, but we help build stronger communities. Were not just any bank. We are citi. Continuing coverage of tonights second Republican Debate. Im jen psaki, and there is no question that tonights debate was a little bizarre. We saw how desperate some of these candidates are to hold out under some of the small portions of the maga base that seem to be their goal, or at least for a lot of them. For instance Vivek Ramaswamy called for the end of birth rate citizenship to children born to undocumented parents. I favor ending Birthright Citizenship for the kids of Illegal Immigrants in this country. Now the left will how about constitution and 14th amendment, that is how we really go the distance, and solve this problem, and restore the rule of law in the United States of america. Because, that is part of what it means to be an american. It is a bit of a novel interpretation there. Then his former Vice President mike pence who said the solution to Mass Shootings is, to effectively abolish the concept of due process under the law. I am sick and tired of these Mass Shootings happening in the United States of america. If im president of the United States, i will go to the congress of the United States, and we are going to pass a federal expedited Death Penalty for anyone involved in a Mass Shooting so they meet their faith in months, not years. Not a mention of the guns, there the whole grounds part of it. Governor ron desantis of laura seem to want to provoke a war with mexico. You think he was in the u. S. Military to fight the drug cartels in that country. Im going to use the u. S. Military to go after the mexican jar cartels. Are we just going to sit here and let this happen, this carnage have been in our country . Now most of those proposals are not only unrealistic, they also run afoul of the u. S. Constitution, and any common sense, and where the electorate is. Another sense, perfectly reasonable for this republican field. Joining me now here at the table, former crown claire mccaskill, former White House Communications director and co host of showtimes the circus, jen. I should note that clear and are the host of the fantastic new msnbc podcast how to win 2024, everybody should listen to that. With us former Communications Director for Vice President kamala harris, and the host of simone on msnbc simone. Republican strategist and joining us from washington of course The One And Only Former Rnc Chairman michael still. Michael, thank you for bringing some mail energy. We have a lot of female power going on here. Nikki haley, welcome to join us anytime. So, i was struck by a lot in this debate, although im not sure how much we will remember a week from now. Clare, let me start with you. It is easy to watch and think, i sometimes talk to all about lets do and that is what do you what is the strategy all about . Well first of all, it was incredibly painful. For Michael Steele, for susan, anybody who has ever had an arm behind their name had to be in mourning tonight. That is a train wreck look pleasant. It was ugly to listen to. I dont know that anybody who really wanted to learn anything handout possibility. I have to stay upfront, im going to im monitoring debates as hard, i have never, done academician is hard. But malpractice on the moderators. How do you not ask a question about a guy whos taking all their proverbial you know whats my advocating executing on of the highest generals in the country . How do you not ask . They are blabbering about long order, who do not ask them about the guy who is kicking their proverbial you know whats having 91 indictments . And by the way, setting up haley and scott to fight with each other. How is that a good moderator move . It is so uncomfortable. The only Moment Desantis had was when she did that lane right down who you are going to vote off the island. Desantis had, the only moment when he said we are not going to do that. That was probably his best moment. It was. You did mention Law And Order think that Governor Desantis said, i just want to play, that because i want to talk to you all about that. I will use the Justice Department to bring civil rights cases against all of those left wing soros funded prosecutors. I would not let them get away with it anymore. We want to reverse this countrys decline, we need to choose Law And Order over writing and disorder. There is a word salad. I wonder if they kind of get a, dollar or 5 forcing certain words like soros funded. They get a little sheet before. There is a bit of law order there. So, simone, what did you make of that . First of, all shout out to the antisemitic dog whistle, because every time they say soros, that is what they are talking about. What Governor Desantis was talking about was bringing patternorpractice investigations against democratic prosecutors i guess in the country. I dont know exactly how that is going to work out for him. It seems to be that everyone on that the bid, stage to be clear they know better, so why they dont do but it is beyond me. They all do know better. On that debate stage, they all look small tonight. Ive not seen on president , and they did not seem to have a grasp of what was actually our reality. You had former Vice President pence saying you need to repeal the great new deal. Honey, the great noodle is a got past. Where were you are . He says a more uncomfortable things you will get you later. Susan, i think everybody at this table but to be fair, it is hard to figure out what the strategy should be in running against trump. Neither strategy seems to be working. Some attacking him like Chris Christie are not going anywhere in the, polls those who are not attacking him, none of them seem to, tonight they are not moving anywhere in the polls. Did anything stick out to you that will help any of them move in the republican primary . No. That is because none of them took advantage of the opportunity for the second time. This is the second debate, none of them brought their message through. They did not talk about why they would be a good president. I think someone is, right they played small. They did not look president ial. And what is worse, is the closest thing i think of is, there were a bunch of kindergartens hopped on candy, and the teacher left the room. That is how they sounded. They were just bickering over each other. They did nothing to help themselves. I hope they realize that they will not be Donald Trumps number two, and a few will step off like tim scott, it is time for him to go, and leave with some and ron desantis, he is already gone. That is an interesting point. I do have a fiveyear, old so really to this point here. So if you are the biden team and watching this debate, do you think that was good for us . Do you think it is relevant . And you take some of the extreme things they said . What do you do . I think it is largely irrelevant. I think the republican primary debate is stopping or 11 after the last one, where all of them except for Chris Christie and Asa Hutchison who didnt make this debate raise their hand, and said i will support this man if he is convicted. Like what is your theory . I thought the whole argument, desantis wont really attack trump other than showing up for the debate. He wont say he is a bad guy, or he was a bad president , he wont critique in any real way. I thought the theory was, trump gets convicted, then he goes away. No. There is so inside their own head and being attacked, they just even going to support him even if he is convicted. So they are still useful because theyre useful for the General Election, Chris Christie attacking the way Chris Christie attacks donald trump, that is probably from independent voters to see i think it doesnt have an, impact it also instructs us on how trump is continuing to have these opponents really as supporters. They are really like supportive actors. I want to bring in Michael Steele who is also a straight talk, or as we all know, and michael you are not advising any of these candidates as we know but if you are advising someone who was trying to run and take on donald trump in this primary. What would you tell them to do on a debate stage even before you got to the debate stage, that is one important question, or to have asked at least two of the president ial candidates, and that is, are you prepared to lose this primary in order to win the presidency . Because that is really what this is about. It is about what you are willing to put on the table to show the American People what you are willing to give up in order to become the leader that they want, that they need at this hour. You are prepared to make a sacrifice, meaning your own political career, the thing that you possibly value more than anything, else you are willing to give that over, and give it up, because that is how important what happens in america, will have been soon americans is to you. So if you cant handle that question, and none of them, kanninen of them have, me then you dont need to be on that stage. So go sit in the bathroom, and thinking it through, and work it out. And when you get the answer, come out and then we go on the stage. That is out a start their conversation. Tonight, you saw individuals disconnected from the Republican Party that presumably i know for a fact for a lot of them, they have been a part of for a long long time. They were disconnected on the economy, they were disconnected on health, care they were disconnected on immigration. They were disconnected on foreign policy. They were disconnected from the very man in whose house they were standing, Ronald Reagan. So, it is a very clear that the infection that is taken ahold as deeper roots than i think anyone probably thought or imagine. So this now becomes a real problem for them, and i think it was to the point that it was just made about somebody has to step down and step out, because this is not going to work. They are not going, too because they are too invested in their own ego that the next time they have to be on the stage anyway they can, because they still believe that they are the ones who can stop donald trump. Donald trump is like no, you can do, that that is not going to happen. There is nothing they can do about it at this, point because they havent been able to answer the first question, it is what are you prepared to give up in order to win . That is a good question to go to a quick break. The whole group is sticking around, we have a lot more on tonights republican, debate and the state of the race for president. Including, who got the most, attack and his name was not donald trump. Stay with, us we will be right back. Did you know most dish soaps dont remove all the grease, even with scrubbing . Whaaat . I just cleaned those. Try dawn platinum. It removes 99 of grease and food residue. Thats why dawn is trusted to save wildlife affected by oil. Dawn platinum cleans to the squeak. I wanna hold you forever hey little bear bear. Im gonna love you forever cmon, bear. You dont. You dont have to worry. Be by your side. Ill be there. With my arms wrapped around. Liberty mutual customized my Car Insurance and i saved hundreds. With the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. Oh. [dog barks] no its just a bunny only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. So if you were talking to tim scott, nikki haley, Chris Christie before they launched their campaigns, say a year, ago or six months ago, and you told them they would be spending precious time at the second debate going after Vivek Ramaswamy, who they may not have heard about the, time they may have told you that something ive gone terribly wrong. But here we are. We are standing here at the reagan library, of Ronald Reagans library if i may, one admire Ronald Reagan to another, from one admire of Ronald Reagan to another [inaudible] you know what i did with my First Company, we open in china, but you know what i did that was different than any other company, we got out of there. When i started my next company, strive im glad vivek pulled out of his business down 2018 in china, that must have been about the time he decided to start voting and president ial elections. This is infuriating, because tim dangerous Social Media Apps you could have, and what you have, every time we hear, you i feel a bit dimmer for what you say. [laughter] that nikki haley moment was what everybody was thinking at, home or many people thinking at home. Same nikki haley. In that moment, nikki haley was my spokesperson. So Vivek Ramaswamy who i had never heard of a year ago, he is now with the target. To me this is a sign that desantis is on his way down, Vivek Ramaswamy is on his way up a bit. This is an alternative debate given trump is so far ahead. But claire, what did you make of all the attacks of vivek . He is just a jerk. He is a kind of candidate, i know i have said it in rooms with consultants, and people trying to help me on campaigns, mansplainers . Frankly it is irritating when women are told about having to be likable. But Everybody Needs to realize that goes for everybody. It is not a woman man thing. If you are not likable as a candidate, you will not get elected too much. And so, he is just very arrogant, and full of himself, and i think they wanted to bring him down because they saw how he paved in the last debate. So i thought it was hysterical when he said we need to show respect for our fellow candidates. Im not hurling personal insults. Im going top cuddle. This is a guy who just hijacked the first debate. I think they all decided it would not let him do it again, but in the process it turned into a swampy mess. So we are watching this, viewers of all of this who have been involved in politics. Michael i want to bring back in here, because Vivek Ramaswamy is now a major player in the republican primary [laughter] heres, not stop it. You tell me, he is moving into second, place what role does he have in the republican primary right now . What role does he have . No, irrelevant . What do you think of vivek . He is highly irrelevant. Hes not taking out donald. Why are we even talking about him. This man is not taking on donald trump. [laughter] the moment he gets close to donald trump, what do you think donald trump is going to do . Donald trump is going to say, he is going to squash him like less than a bug. Heres the thing about vivek, this is the part, lets connect all the little dots here. He gets up, there he says he declares because you know, he knows how to deal with immigration, that he is going to kick out all of those young children, the children who are born to immigrants. Taking and deconstructing Birthright Citizenship. Really . And liberals he says, yes, they are going to lose their mind. No they wont. You know who will . You know who would . Your mom and your dad, who birth your behind here illegally. Because you are exactly that person you are trying to now keep from being a u. S. Citizen. That is the fallacy, and the bs coming out of this guys mouth every downtime, and im so glad, nikki put is so well, and every time he opens his mouth, we are dominant, because hes lying to you, hes obstructing the truth, he is twisting it, he is turning it. He wants to be the trump instead of trump. And the reality of it is, the base is not going to do it. The money is not going to do it. So lets just stop pretending there is something here that we should be concerned about, or even talking about. It is good entertainment. He runs his mouth, incessantly, but what is he actually saying when he says stuff like this on Birthright Citizenship . When his own family are exactly the people he wants to kick out of the country . Look, i think its a very good, point because sometimes people say crazy, things and we think nobody will pay attention. But people do pay attention. What did you make of what he had to say in the case response of course . Well i guess from the first debate, he was a fly they tried to flick around. Then nikki came out with the fly swatter and just batted it and smacked it. But there is something important to recognize with his presence on the stage. Some, not i, find appealing. He is the only person who is not a current or former governor or senator. Is the only person who fits into that. He is running as the outsider. I dont think people realize, that was something that not only people responded to with donald trump, but they still do. If you think government is the problem, you dont want to look at those six other people. There is no one else there except for him. Now i do think he is i couldnt agree with michael more. He is not going anywhere. He is on his way down. I dont think he is on his way, up i think we will see him in fourth place pretty soon. But he does offer something that is worth considering when you start looking at the candidates, and what they need to bring to the table. I think the incredulousness by which the chairman like to call him responded, to the comments about Vivek Ramaswamy, is actually how a number of all the candidates on the stage file tonight. I think how some mainstream Republican Voters feel, and some may be more moderate democrats right, they see Vivek Ramaswamy, they see the antics on his debate stage from all of the candidates collectively tonight, and they are disgusted, disappointed, and just dealing with real things in this country, right . There are folks who still cannot make enough money to put food on the table for their families. Right, we are on the brink of a Government Shutdown where people will lose their paychecks, and many hundreds of thousands of people will not get that pay. This is what the republicans on the stage are arguing about. Frankly, in my opinion, this is what donald trump does not feel the need to show up, because if this is what you have, why am i coming . They are not serious. Because they are not serious, it is this is a General Election game and i said this when we were chatting with chris earlier, i will say it again here. Cassidy hutchinson was on the call earlier, and nicole asked her, or you going to vote for joe biden because you say you are not going to vote for donald trump. She paused, she said no im not there, yet biden voted for donald, trump maybe i will ride in. There are a lot of folks out, theyre a lot of republicans like Cassidy Hutchinson who do not want to vote for donald trump. But if they are not ready to hit that button for joe biden that is a vote for donald trump, and that is what folks need to do because they we know donald, trump here now shes not showing up the next, debate not exactly a shocker. We have to sneak in another quick, break everyone here sticking around with much more ahead on tonights debate and what the frontrunner was up to tonight. We will be right back. Ht back. Tech cracked windshield on your new car . Bring it to safelite. My customer was enjoying her new car, when her windshield cracked. [gasp] customer my car tech vo she didnt take it to the dealer. 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You are scrapping. You are scrapping. Excuse me. Here is you i wonder what they are competing for . So that was part one. Here is part two. They are all candidates, they want to secretary of something, even state vp, i dont know theres anybody cvp in the group . I dont think so. Okay, so i know, we the fault what did you think of hearing him say that . It is so humiliating. What . What are they doing up there . All of the attacks on we vivek seem to me like it was misplaced anger because they cant go after trump. So they are going to rip off like rip the faceoff trump junior, because there are so frustrated. But it is still, are you running to be the running mate, or do you think you just going to collapse at some, why he is not going to collapse at some point . If you are going to be the running, mate then make a better defense of trump. But they just did not do anything of that. There was not i thought nikki haley performed well, and she sounds irrational like she lives in the century were supposed to some of the other ones, but otherwise she is just it is just so defined what they thought they were doing tonight. I mean nikki haley, i thought she performed, well and i thought she performed well in the first debate. She moved two points after the first debate, she had also spent about 11 million on that home as well. So we are just in an alternate reality. Clare, as we wrap up this evening, what do you think we might still be talking about a week from now about that debate . Is anything still going to sit with you . No. I will forget. It i will try to never think about it again. I thought it was not a good night for democracy, a terrible night for the Republican Party. I will say this, i hope a week from now we are seeing a more aggressive use of surrogates out for biden, going after trump. The idea that he stood at a nonunion haul and had a bunch of people hold silencing union member you know it reminds me, of simone, it reminds me of how he has black people standing behind him. Blacks for trump. This prompting, they have to go after, they have to go after him hard. Im not saying the president has to do it all, but have not gotten as aggressive as they need to be. We are quick, before we wrap, simone, what do you remember from tonight . I will remember the debacle about the curtains, and i will remember every single candidate got up on that debate stage tonight, and they attacked working people, union households, votes that they are absolutely going to need if they want to be anything close to president. I try so hard to forget all of it if i can. But probably, what stays with me is the polling from nikki haley, what happen . Michael, still bringing us, well make it quick. We are quick, nothing from tonight at all. All right. Well, Michael Steele, claire mccaskill, jennifer palmieri, to Simone Sanders townsend, and of course The One And Only chairman uncle Michael Steele. Whatever simone calls him. Thank you so much for staying up late with me tonight. That is it for me tonight. Dont go anywhere tonight. More coverage on msnbc starts here tonight right now. Right now good evening and thank welcome to our special coverage of the second republican president ial primary debate. Im Rachel Maddow here in msnbc with my beloved colleagues, chris hayes, joy Reid Stephanie ruhle. Great to all be together in this difficult time we will be joined by California Governor Gavin Newsom in a little bit. He was there at the debate, god bless and we will get his take on what went down tonight the debate is just now wrapping up after two hours of talking