Fascist dictatorship, and so bill barr, after, ive got to say, humiliating himself for several years, bill barr decides, this is where i get off. This is enough. This is my line. I believe in an imperial presidency, but i dont believe in a fascist presidency. Thats what donald trump was asking him to do. Asking him to steal an election. Asking him to arrest his political opponents. Asking him to do the sort of things, again, that fascist dictators do. He wouldnt do it. Now, trump has turned on him. As far as fani willis goes and jack smith and everything else, again, we can point you back to it and play it for you again, what we were saying in 2019. If donald trump lost in 2020, he would run again, and hed run again simply to avoid all the crimes he was committing. Im not good at math, but that was four years ago. Four years ago, we were saying he will run again so he can try to avoid jail. Going to jail. Here we are. I must say, a lot of people were saying that, so its hard to believe anybody is stupid enough, watching that show, to completely forget that we all saw this coming like a Freight Train out of the mist. Now, he says this when, again, hes running to try to avoid jail time, as weve been saying for four years. Pretty much the only reason. That was, by the way, donald trump going after his former Attorney General, bill barr. Also, the prosecutor seeking to hold him accountable for his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. Well have the new developments on the former president s legal troubles that now includes his twitter account. They didnt want to turn the information over to the government. In fact, they wanted to run and rat out the government. Meanwhile, trumps former Campaign Manager is calling the results of tuesdays special election in ohio, quote, rocket fuel for the democrats. Well have much more on the fallout for the Republican Party. Plus, the latest from hawaii, where raging wildfires have turned deadly overnight. Oh, such a sad story. Well have the latest. With us this morning, we have u. S. Special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay. Pulitzer prize winning columnist and Associate Editor for the Washington Post, Eugene Robinson. And senior columnist for the daily beast, matt lewis joins us this morning. We begin with a new court ruling that has revealed months before charging donald trump in two separate cases, special counsel jack smiths office executed a Search Warrant of the former president s twitter account. According to the redacted ruling made public yesterday, the Justice Department executed the warrant back in january, despite being challenged by the elon musk owned company. Musk refused to turn over trumps account at first because of his objection to a part of the warrant that barred twitter from informing the former president that his account was being searched. It was a criminal investigation. Wow. The billionaire claimed the order, quote, violated the companys First Amendment right. Thats a little flexible these days, by the way, with twitter. They were sanctioned 350,000 and ultimately forced to comply after a judge ruled there was, quote, probable cause to search the account for evidence of criminal offenses. The judge also found, quote, reasonable grounds to believe that telling trump about the search beforehand would give him the chance to destroy potential evidence. Its unclear what evidence smiths office collected as a result of the warrant. Youll remember trumps twitter account was banned in the days following the january 6th attack, but it was restored last year after musk purchased the company. Nbc news has reached out to trumps lawyers and twitter, which has now since been renamed x, for comment. Didnt get any. Jean robi gene robinson, it is fascinating, a polite way to put it. A company that bends backwards to do what the Chinese Communist party wants them to do, other dictatorships wants them to do, are now worried about First Amendment rights and, oh, we need to notify donald trump, even though that would actually hamper the investigation. Yeah, they seem to have no problem following Government Instructions, orders or restrictions elsewhere in the world, especially china. They have a Problem Doing what the u. S. Courts instruct them to do, which theyre legally required to do and which they finally did after being sanctioned and fined. You know, whats fascinating about this is one worries, one wonders what it is in that account they wanted to go after. Are they trying to, you know something that you cant see publicly . Are they trying to get into his direct messages . It is unclear to me exactly what it is, but, clearly, jack smith thought there was something in there, and well see what it was, i guess, in the fullness of time when it comes out in court. Joining us now, nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian with more on the former president s legal woes. Ken, first of all, whats your take on the twitter story, or x . Mika, i think eugene is absolutely onto something there. Obviously, Donald Trumps tweets are public, right . You can even now go online and find the old account which has been dormant for two years. But whats not public are direct messages or, for example, drafts of tweets that were never sent, or metadata that might show whether a tweet was sent from a phone or a desktop. If youll recall the January 6th Committee trying to get those outtakes of the video that trump was making on january 6th, a message to the rioters, and the point of that was to try to figure out what he didnt say, what he didnt want to say, what he proposed to say. Again, this is speculation, but people are wondering if that is one of the things jack smith is going after. Another fascinating thing about this is that for a few days, smith and his team reached out to twitter through the channel that they had established for Legal Process, and nobody responded. Elon musk had gutted the staff of the place to such an extent. Any of us who tried to reach out to their Press Operation have found the same problem. Finally, you know, the special counsel gets through, and then twitter delays. In fact, they were fined 350,000 by the court for that initial reluctance to comply with this, again, Search Warrant. Not a subpoena. This is getting content, which is protected by the fourth amendment. You need to go to a judge and Show Evidence of crimes. Very significant development. Well have to see how it figures in the case. Yeah. Obviously, a lot of all of President Trumps tweets are public and can be found in a different way. A draft of a tweet, is that saved . If you type something out, does anyone know . If you erase it, is it in there . Is that what theyre looking at . Youre asking me that because im a technological wiz kid. Its public. It begs the question, katty, theyre in search of a crime. If its not on the public tweets, you wonder where that is. Im not even a simple Country Lawyer, but i dont see how something that is written in draft, which would be your kind of thoughts or things you didnt actually put into action, that seems less pertinent than perhaps things that were sent to your dms that youd written to Somebody Else. We know trump is careful about not sending many texts and emails to people. Its not a form of communication he favors. Did he send a lot of dms . I dont know whether his twitter account is full of the kinds of conversations, effectively, which is what direct messages are, one to one conversations, is it full of the direct conversations he would have been having that would be useful to prosecutors . It is intriguing. Im sure well finally know. We will get to know during the trial what happens, but itll be intriguing to see what this led to. The Trump Campaign is taking on the former president s indictments in a new attack ad. Can i just say this . Yeah. If they went searching, it is because somebody on his staff said Something Like, you should check the direct messages or check the drafts. Hes given someone else the password, so anybody can open it up and see the drafts. Like, theyre just not going to do that fishing expedition. Yeah, thats what i i was just thinking as we were talking about it, if they went searching there, they went searching because a trumper who worked on the inside of trumps team said, hey, youll want to know how who communicated, go there. Yeah. So this attack ad, the minutelong Television Spot names the prosecutors and investigators that brought charges against him, connecting them to President Biden. The majority of the ad focuses on Fulton County da fani willis and spouts a number of inaccurate and misleading allegations. Willis addressed the ad in an email to her staff, calling it derogatory and false. The ad is scheduled to air frequently in Fulton County, georgia, as well as nationally. Time to air as willis is prepared to bring charges against trump and his allies, maybe next week. Matt lewis, that is just specifically designed to influence a future jury pool. Of course. By actually doing a hit job against Law Enforcement. So you do the hit job against Law Enforcement, spread all of these lies, and what are you doing . What youre doing is, again, youre tampering with the jury pool. Absolutely. And i think, you know, the interesting thing is that we have, what, four indictments now, so ill try not to confuse them, but in georgia, legally, the people i talk to who are legal experts im not even a Country Lawyer either they say that the, you know whats happening in georgia, for example, and the maralago case, that both of those cases would legally be very easy to prove. Whereas, the January 6th Case, legally, even though obviously what trump did was, you know, in my opinion, he incited the riot, but legally hard to prove. But the difference, of course, is venue, right . So if youre having a trial in washington, d. C. , thats going to be a very different jury pool than if youre having it in florida. And i do think, obviously, donald trump is engaged in, you know, sort of preemptive witness tampering. Joe, to your point about the twitter thing, i think that is the other interest thing. Like, im listening to all of these conservative legal experts who are talking about the january 6th trial, and theyre basically saying, yeah, what trump did is horrible, but im not sure he broke the law. Its going to be hard to prove that he actually broke the law. I think the thing to keep in mind is, that jack smith knows things we dont yet know. Whether it is somebody flipping on him, as youve sort of suggested, whether its his former Chief Of Staff or whoever, there may be details that come out that are dispositive. So this we dont know yet what jack smith knows. Ken dilanian, i want you to underline that fact. Also, ill just make ill just take note that, again, over the past several days, ive been disturbed by the fact that Establishment Republicans who claim to be antitrump, even if they were anti antitrump at the same time, have all said, oh, this is jack smith. This is about the First Amendment. Or what about Hunter Bidens laptop . A lot of different distractions from jack smith and january 6th. For some reason, the republican establishment that was antitrump is now scurrying back to him, claiming, somehow, that jack smith is attacking donald trump for using his First Amendment rights. I mean, we saw that memo yesterday. My gosh, the conspiracy that was hatched, seems to me, again, i dont know as much about the law as you im sure, but it seems to me to be a laughable offense. This has nothing to do with the First Amendment. It is a conspiracy to push fake electors on mike pence to change and to discount the votes of tens of millions of americans. And, joe, not all of the republican accomplishment is trying to justify it. You may have noticed that alberto gonzalez, the Bush Administration Attorney General, wrote an oped the other day and came out and said, look, this indictment is very strong, and im disturbed my fellow republicans and pundits on fox news are impugning the Justice System and the Justice Department, that he used to lead. He knows it is full of nonpartisan people who are pursuing the law and, in this view, the indictment was quite strong. Youre absolutely right. The cheeseboro memo, the lawyer from wisconsin who was advising trump, appears to be the blueprint for the false elector scheme. Theres some covering language in there. For example, he said, we should only execute this if there are plausible legal claims that we think are going to show fraud. Of course, that wasnt by the time false electors were voting in December 2020, there were no plausible legal claims. They went forward anyway, and thats the crux of the issue here. Joe, i also want to go to what you said about Jury Tampering and trumps, you know, inflammatory criticism of prosecutors and now the judge in the federal case. Ive been talking to legal experts. I wrote a piece about this which will be published later today. Its a really horrible dilemma that all these judges are in because donald trump is running for president , and political speech is the most protected speech under the First Amendment. Yet, normally, a criminal defendant would not be allowed to get away with trying to influence the jury pool by impugning the prosecutors. But a lot of experts i talked to, even ones critical of trump, think that these judges are going to have to choice but to let him do almost everything, except threaten like he did the other day with, you know, if you come after me, im coming after you. Yeah. Thats what they think would be the line, threats against judges or prosecutors. Then there is a horrible situation of what do the judges leverage . They can fine him, but the ultimate leverage is they can throw him in jail. Now, were into this situation where a person with Lifetime Secret Service protection, can they be jailed . How will the Secret Service react . We say this all the time, but we are in really dangerous, Uncharted Territory with these legal cases against the former president. Right. I fear for former law schools who are going to be grappling with this First Amendment question in con law. You have the balancing of protecting prosecutors, stopping somebody from subverting the judicial process, the Legal Process, a criminal process. Thats on one hand. On the other hand, you have, again, political speech. As we said yesterday, all free speech is not created equally. The constitution, the Supreme Court has also valued political speech the most and are the least likely to interfere with political speech. You can tell the difference between political speech and threatening a witness. Thats where these come together. Yes, you can. I mean it is not always going to be simple. Speaking of former Attorney General alberto gonzalez, we can ask him about all this. He will be our guest at the top of the hour. In an interview last night, trump essentially admitted that he inter interfered in georgias 2020 election. Discussing his phone call to Secretary Of State brad raffensperger. I believe i won that election by many, many votes. Many, many Hundreds Of Thousands of votes. Thats what i think. I expressed that on the phone call, and i said, i dont know what the number was, 11,000 or something. I said, what i need is 11,000 votes. I won this thing by Hundreds Of Thousands of votes. Thats my opinion. Its a strong opinion, and i think its born out by the fact s. Were see that. I think i won the masters in 1987. Ill take the trophy from the person they awarded it to. I think i have more number one hits and gold records than the beatles, Rolling Stones and cw call combined. Come on. They had to do a disclaimer on the network. He knows they didnt win by Hundreds Of Thousands of votes. Newsmax, afterwards, did a disclaimer, saying that they knew joe biden legally won the context. Ask him about it. This idea among donald trump and his trumpers, just because he says he believes, as somebody said yesterday, he owns all the money in the bank, doesnt mean he can have a conspiracy, like an oceans 12 conspiracy or ocean 13, i forget, to have brad pitt go in, break into the safe and take all the money out of the bank. Yeah. Here again, yet another admission, yeah, i told him i needed 11,000 votes. That perfect phone call not sounding so perfect anymore, gene. No, its not. I think that was oceans 11 when they took the bags full of money out of the casino. But in any event, no, you cant just say, you know, i believed that i was a billionaire, and go rob the bank. You cant just say, i believed i had won the state, and then not just ask, but pressure and try to intimidate the Secretary Of State of georgia into illegally inventing or changing 11,780 votes so you can so you could then have won the state by one vote. You know, lets you know, the perfect phone call, right . It was perfect for prosecutors who were trying to prove what donald trump did. This is astounding. It is a riot that newsmax ran a disclaimer afterwards. Obviously, they have a better purchase on reality than donald trump does, and also, frankly, they see what trump is doing in continually coming out with this stuff. Yeah, i think we have that disclaimer. Its kind of a strange way of covering it, but here, take a look at how it plays out. I totally dispute that election. I think its ridiculous, what happened. They allowed that to happen, and that the media doesnt want anybody to talk about it. We just have to make sure they dont cheat on the elections. Thats the question i get, sir, will they do it again . Will they cheat again . Were not going to let them. I believe i won that election by many, many votes, many, many Hundreds Of Thousands of votes. Thats what i think. To note, newsmax has accepted the Election Results as legal and final. [ laughter ] oh, my god. Its so rich. Its so rich. Just pop that in. They have to pop that in. Pop it in. Of course dont want to get sued. Matt, cost fox 787 million to keep churning up the lies. Theyre now liable for maybe up to another 1 billion. Newsmax actually famously had their Morning Anchor get up out of a chair when mr. Pillow was spreading his lies and was, like, smartly, one of the great moves in recent cable news history, got up and just walked off the set, left the chair there. But, you know, they sit there and let him spew lies for an entire interview, knowing that they are lying. Knowing that they have to say this disclaimer. Then they have to say this disclaimer because they know that theyre letting him lie through the entire interview. Yeah. I think, you know, Donald Trumps entire, i guess, argument now, at least in two of the four cases, is the George Costanza defense, right . Its not a lie if i believe its true. And so he has to commit to the bit. Actually, what the newsmax thing reminds me, like, a little bit of maybe professional wrestling. You know, where donald trump is in this act, and now when they cut back to the announcers at the end, they have to, you know, were called World Wrestling entertainment, not World Wrestling federation. They have to kind of give away that this is for Entertainment Purposes only. But i think the damage is done, though, to be honest. I dont know that the disclaimer at the end we find it, you know, obviously hilarious and very telling. For people who are watching, the Wrestling Fans so to speak, i dont know the disclaimer matters to them at the end. But it is surreal and very post modern, i have to say. Yeah. Ken, before we end the block, i want to hear a little bit more about this fbi raid in utah, where a man was killed. Tell us what happened. Its a tragic segue from, you know, false claims on newsmax to a story about a trump supporter. 75yearold Craig Robertson in provo, utah, who had been posting things like, in september, the time is right for a president ial assassination or two, first joe, then kamala. So the fbi decided to go and try to arrest him yesterday morning at 6 00 a. M. With President Biden coming to the region. As they were serving the arrest warrant, they say he was armed, and they shot him to death. But he had been threatening not only the president and the Vice President , but d. A. Alvin bragg in new york, the Attorney General there, letitia james. He called Merrick Garland a nazi. He owned weapons and a trump hat and a camouflage sniper suit. He was living in his own reality. This is the tragedy that ensh ensued. There was an analysis published the other day, that threats against Public Officials across the country have absolutely spiked in the last year. Thats just looking at federal charges. Many of them are not captured around the country, but there is a climate of angry rhetoric that has erupted into actual action, threats and action, like weve never seen before. So these words that these politicians say that, in many cases, as you just demonstrated are false, they have consequences, guys. Yes. You know, katty, they do have consequences. Of course, there are 77 million i guess it was like 77 Million People who voted for donald trump, and the overwhelming majority of them obviously not doing this. The problem that i think anybody will tell you, whether even pretrump, the problem is with lies and propaganda, where youre constantly turning the other side into enemies. Youre going to find people like this tragically without guardrails. Youre going to find people that buy into the lies, that buy into the conspiracy theories, and you see it you saw it on january 6th. One lie after another. You know, its not until theyre arrested, its not until theyre in jail, its not until they talk to their Family Members who are like, what were you doing, that they sort of come to. Tragically for them, its too late because theyre in jail. Again, you have a guy here making one threat after another, wanting to assassinate politicians. And arming up. And arming up. The costs of this paranoia that is ginned up by donald trump or trumpers or the nra through the years. Weve seen it through the years, where theyre constantly pumping up paranoia. Theyre coming to take your guns. Theyre coming to take away the Second Amendment from you, and then defining the Second Amendment in the most exaggerated, unconstitutional way. This all comes, unfortunately, at a tragic cost, and it did again yesterday. Yeah. I mean, one of the traits of trumpism that i found traveling around the country is the kind of freefloating anger, and it can attach itself to anything. To gender issues, to race, to immigration, to the libs, to the establishment, but its very real. It kind of morphs as time goes on. But the worst consequences of the anger, in a country where there are a lot of guns, are the attacks we saw that played out in utah yesterday. We are living in this very tense environment. We did hear i mean, 2022 was interesting, the midterms, because we did hear then, and i heard it, interviewed people who told me there was going to be a civil war if the republicans lost. It didnt happen. So, you know, there are moments where we may we shouldnt catastrophize, and we may think theres going to be something terrible that happens, and the country holds back and reigns itself in. The votes at the midterms were accepted without consequence and without violence. So lets see what 2024 happens. Lets keep our fingers crossed. But it is a terrible situation were in, that we have to keep our fingers crossed about something peace and security and acceptance after an election here. It is. You know, we have been a 50 50 nation for the past 20, 25 years. The only difference is that, obviously, since donald trump came in, what used to be normal has now been turned into a reason for a, quote, civil war. I mean, we were basically 50 50 in the 2022 election. Republicans expected to do much better. They underperformed. Joe biden, if you looked at the polls in 2020, was expected to do much better. In states like wisconsin where it was, like, hes supposed to win by 13, 14, 15 points if you believe the polls, underperformed. Why . We are, for the most part, a 50 50 nation. And these lies that, again, are spread come at a great cost, and its something that its something that, unfortunately, is even turning now against our military. Yeah. Because now, fox news, i mean, theyve run documentaries saying that the fbi is coming to kill people who are Trump Supporters just because theyre Trump Supporters. Forget about the assassination threats and everything else. And they run documentaries saying that helicopters that were used in afghanistan are going to come to the United States and be used against american citizens who were Trump Supporters. You have not just people in fox news but people in the United States congress over the past year who have called our Military Leaders pigs. Called our Military Leaders pigs, like some leftwing Marxist Hippie from 1967. Theyve called them pigs. You have a republican senator spewing hate to the military, saying he wished they were more like Russian Military troops. Again, all of these stupid conspiracy theories, all of this extremism, its now leading a lot of Trump Supporters to hating the very institutions conseratives once proudly defended. The United States military. The fbi. Law enforcement. They want to defund, mika, an agency that stops terrorists from attacking the United States of america. Thats where we are. Twisted. Its becoming mainstream. Nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian, thank you very much for being on this morning. Thank you, ken. Also, we are following Breaking News out of hawaii, where Officials Say at least 36 people have been killed by the fastmoving wildfires sweeping across the western part of the island of maui. Dozens more are injured and being treated for burns. Hundreds of homes and businesses are destroyed, and communications on the island are crippled. Thousands of residents have evacuated with some diving into the ocean for safety from the flames. The devastating wildfires have been fanned by strong winds from Hurricane Dora Passing South of the hawaiian islands. Lets bring in meteorologist Angie Lassman for the latest on what the conditions are for firefighters. Angie, whats the latest . Good morning, guys. Yeah, so were going to see some improvements. Thats the short term of it. But we really have a recipe for these winds to remain elevated. Critical fire weather will be with us a while longer. We have Hurricane Dora just to the south of the island, and that is a low pressure system. Just to the north of the island, we have a High Pressure system. When you have differences in pressure, that creates wind. We had strong trade winds blowing through parts of that region and gusting up to 50, 55 miles per hour. We know when we have all the recipes for fire, were going to teal with it spreading quite quickly when we have the strong winds. Over the next 24 hours, this is the good news, both of those systems will move away. Theyll move west, but the winds dont immediately subside. 30, 35, 40mileperhour winds in the short term, and fires are still burning at this hour. On top of that, well see the winds calming down. We dont have a lot of rain in the forecast. Were dealing with really dry conditions. On the island, weve got moderate drought and severe drought in place. Well have some dry winds on the leeward side of the island. As i mentioned, not a lot of rain in the forecast. Well see a few of the passing showers. At the very least, the winds will come down which will help the firefighters, of course, battle the conditions theyre dealing with in maui, mika. Keep us posted. Angie lassman, thank you very much. It is a terrible situation out there. Gene, really quickly, i just wanted to go back to you. I want to expand on what i was saying about the lies that people are being told about the fbi. Yeah. If fox news and donald trump and trumpers are telling people the fbi is coming to kick down your door and kill you, what happens when the fbi shows up at somebodys door who has been threatening to assassinate and planning to assassinate the president of the United States and the Vice President of the United States . He comes out shooting. Thats correct. Hes been told by fox news and the trumpers that when the fbi shows up, theyre going to kick down your door and kill you. So yeah. So you talk about reallife consequences. These lies create reallife consequences and put the lives of Law Enforcement officers on the line and make their already tough and dangerous job even more dangerous. Absolutely. So after this incident in utah, you know, what it tells the authorities, the fbi and local police and others, that because of this rhetoric that is being spread by what used to be the Law And Order party, obviously is not now, the next time, they have to go in with more armor and more weapons because theyre likely to confront somebody who shoots next time. I mean, this is words are words have consequences. Words are dangerous. Lies have consequences. And it is just shocking to me, as somebody who remembers the way that hippies talked about the fbi in 1967, its just shocking to me to hear the Republican Party not just adopting that rhetoric, but turbocharging it. Essentially saying that, you know, the fbi is a bunch of stormtroopers who are going to come in and kill you. Its just astounding to me. Donald trump just sort of, i guess, unplugged, took the plug out of the hole and allowed all of this stuff to come out. But, wow, its just amazing. And what a tragedy yesterday, that 75yearold guy who believed the lies. You know, thats the tragedy. Like many others. Thats the danger, is the guardrails are taken off because they hear this on tv. They hear it from politicians. So theyre ready to start their own civil war when Law Enforcement comes to check on an assassination threat. Well, i just wonder how judge chutkan is going to be dealing with trumps, quote, political speech with her experience, trying january 6th rioters seeing how infected their minds were. Itll be very interesting to see how affected she might be by some of the words he puts out there, maybe more than other judges. You never know. Still ahead on morning joe, Top Republicans are sounding the alarm after voters in ohio rejected a measure that would have made it tougher to protect Abortion Rights. What it means for the fight over Abortion Access and the 2024 election. Plus, a top evangelical leader is warning about conservative christians rejecting the Teachings Of Jesus as, quote, liberal Talking Points. Well show you those new remarks. Also ahead, former arkansas governor and 2024 white house hopeful Asa Hutchinson is our guest this morning. Youre watching morning joe. Well be right back. What do we always say, son . Liberty mutual customizes your Car Insurance. 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That is monique, who was an elected Florida State attorney, slamming Governor Ron Desantis after he abruptly suspended her yesterday. This is now the second time in one year that desantis has removed an Elected Official from their position. An Elected Official. Elected official. Both are democrats. Replaced by republicans. His Executive Order accuses her of underprosecuting crimes, but she says this is an attempt to jumpstart his president ial primary bid. Monique joins us now. Thank you so much for being with us. I have to admit, ive been my family moved to florida, like, over 40 years ago. Ive been involved in politics for quite some time. Despite that, even i am shocked that a governor can just boot out somebody who was elected by the people. Thats what Everybody Needs to understand. You werent appointed by anybody. You were elected by the people, and, as you said, this sort of Dictator Move, it is shocking. What has been the response for your constituents and the people who voted for you just three years ago . Well, you know, youre right, it is shocking, and the nation should be shocked by that. Essentially, we are dealing with a dictator. Were dealing with someone who is overreaching his Political Authority and removing a little removing Elected Officials simply for not being politically aligned with him. Typically, the Removal Rules were used to remove individuals who had been arrested or convicted of crime, or individuals who had fallen into addiction and werent able to properly perform their duties. But now, this governor is using these rules to remove people who simply are democrats or remove Elected Officials in democratic counties which he is retaliating against pause because they didnt support him in the election. This is a sad day in florida. Its a sad day in america, and the whole country should be watching. Because if were not careful, this could become the next president of the United States. And the thing is, there is nothing conservative about this guy. Im a conservative. Im a small government conservative. We believe the power starts at the local level, and anything the local level can do, you give it to the local level. If they cant do it, the state level does it. If they cant do it, the federal government does it. Everything is upside down with desantis. Hes like a centralized state authoritarian. Whether he is banning Small Businesses from running their businesses the way they want during covid or banning or going after baseball teams. Now, here, this seems to be an even greater breach. Im curious, what do your constituents, what do the people of your district think about you being elected, you campaigning, you debating, you running against another candidate, you winning the election, then him just unilaterally deciing to fire you, push you to the side for a Campaign Talking Point . Well, people are upset. There is no doubt about that. I ran on a very specific platform, and i kept my word. I stood by the things that i said that i would do based on research and analysis of the criminal legal system over my 20 years of practice. I talked about mass incarceration in this country and how florida leads the nation in incarceration. And i ran on a platform of implementing things that would change that. Using the Strong Arm Of The Law when necessary, but also implementing programs that would divert people from the criminal system. The constituents are upset. They are angry because their votes have been stolen from them. They elected someone to govern according to their values, and thats been stripped away. He didnt put in someone who was close in ideology or anything like that because there was some, you know, malfunction with my way of doing thing. He put someone in who was opposite of what the people elected and what the people wanted. All at a time when crime is down in central florida. So there is no Public Safety reason for him to take this step. There is strictly a political reason, and you said it best, to jumpstart his failed president ial campaign. Mika, doesnt matter whether people agree, as she said, as the State Attorney said. It doesnt matter whether people agree with her philosophy on crime or not. I suspect, i dont know all the details, i suspect, based on what she said, maybe i would disagree with some parts of it. Maybe. But make no mistake, if republicans can basically fire Elected Officials because they disagree with their philosophy, dont republicans understand that a democratic governor in the future can fire somebody because they think that theyre too much of a, quote, Law And Order official. Right. This is such a dangerous antidemocratic step, that as the State Attorney said in her press conference, her views and ideology dont matter here because the people already endorsed them with their vote three years ago. Understood. Ms. Worrell, aside from speaking out on platforms like this, do you have any other options . Are there Legal Options . How does this i understand you intend to run again. How does this change what youre fighting for in the state of florida . So with your question toward our Legal Options, we have assembled a legal team, and they are currently reviewing the Executive Order and making determinations about what the next steps are legally. I filed for reelection in march, and that hasnt changed. I am still running for reelection. What im running for hasnt changed. The people voted for it by an overwhelming majority, by 67 of the vote i won in 2020. Wow. Oh, my god. So i trust that they will speak again, despite the backdoor efforts that the governor is currently making to gerrymander the Court Circuits in the same way that he has gerrymandered the voting districts. Gene robinson with the Washington Post is next. Gene, the State Attorney won with twothirds of the vote. Yeah. And she won on a platform far different than ron desantis. He has replaced a State Attorney that won with twothirds of the vote, now with somebody who is a Federalist Society member, who i suspect wouldnt get 14 of the vote. Yeah. This is just so antidemocratic. Its really shocking. It is shocking. Its shocking to me. Ron desantis is like, you know, a tin hat wouldbe emperor at this point. With, i guess, a Napoleon Complex or something. Its incredible. State attorney worrell, im curious as to, first, are there others of your colleagues, other states attorneys in florida who might be subject to this same sort of whimsical and political ouster by ron desantis, or did he just zero in on you for various reasons . You know, because youre so popular, because you were pursuing policies that he didnt like and, frankly, perhaps because youre an africanamerican woman. But, you know, for political reasons. Bingo. Are there others also in danger . Yup. Well, i think that, you know, you can look at the democratically elected prosecutors across the state, and each of them are in danger. But i think that as it comes to me, all the reasons you stated, gene, are factual. I think that i am unapologetically opposed to his way of doing things. Because he is a bully, because he is a weak authoritarian, he has decided to retaliate against me by my removal. Hes not stated one valid, legal ground for my removal, because we still have prosecutorial discretion in this state. But i believe if you look around, i believe there were three democraticallyelected prosecutors out of the 20 circuits in the state of florida. I think each are in jeopardy. Also something to watch for is the gerrymandering of the judicial circuits. In doing that, hell be able to wipe out all democratically elected prosecutors by merging them with red counties. All right. I have a feeling Governor Ron Desantis picked on the wrong democraticallyelected State Attorney. Thats my gut. Absolutely. Thank you for knowing your value. I have a feeling we will see you once again. Madame State Attorney, thank you so much. Monique for State Attorney. Thank you so much for having me. There we go. Matt lewis, this really confirms what republicans in tallahassee have been telling me for some time. When i say republicans, im talking about people like you and me that are part of the, oh, i dont know, reagan Republican Party, the small government Republican Party that i used to be a member of. That actually believed in small government and a bottomup leadership instead of topdown. Ive been told by so many people in tallahassee over the past year or two that if you dont like donald trump, you will hate ron desantis. They dont like donald trump. But they say he is he is like a tyrant. Again, these are republicans. I dont know a whole lot of democrats in tallahassee, to be honest with you. These are republicans. Theyll say, like, they always tell me, look at how he banned Small Business owners from implementing Safety Precautions during covid. They couldnt keep their businesses open. Look at how he banned cruises, you know, Cruise Liners from doing the same thing. So they couldnt make millions of dollars. They couldnt operate. Look at how he went after politically to try to hurt the Tampa Bay Rays for posting a tweet after uvalde, in sympathy of the children there. Of course, we have the war on disney. There is fear. There is fear and loathing among all ceos in the state of florida. They wont admit it on the record, but they say it to lobbyists all over the state. Theyre like, were afraid. We cant do anything because this guy will come after us for Political Purposes. Its just it is a topdown, statecentered, like, authoritarianism type approach, isnt it . I think it is, joe. Look, i think this is indindicae of a schism within the conservative moment, such as it exists today. You noted kind of the Reagan Conservative Philosophy that existed for decades, which believed in limited government and that it was inappropriate to use the power of government to try to impose your beliefs on other people. And i do think it is very clear that theres now a big section of the Republican Party and the conservative movement, you can call them common good conservatives, or theres different names for it, but essentially, they believe that it is incumbent, if you are a republican or conservative who gets elected, you must use that power to impose your beliefs in a nondemocratic way, right . So outside the scope of your powers, of what youve actually been granted. And so i think that ron desantis is maybe the avatar of this philosophy, and what he is doing in florida, its right wing, but it is not conservative in the sense that we knew for decades, joe. And to restate something you said earlier, i dont understand how a conservative could watch this and not be afraid that it is going to be used against us down the road, you know . Is it crazy to think that a democratic governor or president could have enough power to decide to impose leftwing progressive values on conservatives . Once mite makes right, its a slippery slope. I think it is something we should push back against, even when it is our own team doing it. Matt lewis, thank you very much for being on this morning. Matts new book entitled filthy rich politicians, is out now. Still ahead on morning joe, a former u. S. Attorney general has a message for his fellow republicans. Quote, the Justice Department is not biase alberto gonzalez, who served in the Bush Administration, is our guest at the top of the hour. Plus, in ohio, voters there pushed back republican efforts that could have stripped the rights of women. Ali vitali has more on the fallout from the critical special election when morning joe comes right back. Le spend category. Hi. You dont have to keep tabs on rotating categories. This is the only rotating i care about. Or activate anything to earn. Your cash back automatically adjusts for you. Can i get a Cucumber Water . 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What theyve done with the election, to weaponize a doj and an fbi like hes done, people have thought about it for probably 100 years, and they do it in thirdworld countries, but they never did it here. You have three and four indictments. You never had an indictment in your whole life, and now you have three or four in a period of a month. Its all because of the election. They could have done it 2 1 2 years ago, by the way, if they really wanted to, but they never thought it was going to be necessary. Yeah, well, actually, we did think it was necessary, and we actually said in 2019, donald, that you were going to run for president again if you lost because you would want to stop the prosecutions from coming. Right. Because you knew they were coming. Everybody knew. They were coming because you deserved to be prosecuted. In fact, Mitch Mcconnell said, after criticizing you for january 6th, in that indictment proceeding, he said, look, this isnt the forum to do it. Theres a forum to do it, and its in the courtroom. So the head of the Republican Party in washington, d. C. , said, do the investigation, and you can go after him and indict him for crimes that were committed on january 6th. So, again, this whole, like, there aint Nobody Acting like a thirdworld dictator more than donald trump and ron desantis. Well get to that in a second. That was donald trump last night repeating his false claims that the department of justice and the fbi have been weaponized against him. Our next guest is trying to set the Republican Party straight. Former u. S. Attorney general, alberto gonzalez, joins us in just a moment. Also ahead this hour, were going to get historic perspective on trumps legal issues by looking back on Richard Nixons resignation. Which came 49 years ago this week. Plus, a republican president ial candidate who is still trying to qualify for the first debate, former arkansas governor Asa Hutchinson will join us just ahead on morning joe. It is just a few minutes past the top of the hour. Katty kay and Eugene Robinson are still with us. Joining the conversation, we have former u. S. Senator, now an nbc news and msnbc political analyst, Claire Mccaskill. Good to have you on board, as well. Claire, before we get to the Attorney General, i want to start with you. I was talking to matt lewis. We kind of come from, you know we were inspired to become republicans with the reagan revolution. The idea was, what we always said, what i said when i went to washington was, trust the people. If Local Government can do it, let Local Government do it. If they cant, the State Government can do it. If they cant, then the federal government can do it. Sort of a bottomup approach, right . We now have, though, unfortunately, in ron desantis, in donald trump, this topdown approach that is trying to literally take the votes away from the American People. Of course, january 6th, the fake electors scheme to rob tens of millions of americans of their vote. In tennessee, the Tennessee Legislature deciding that two black politicians needed to be kicked out of the legislature. You talk about free speech,prot. The white woman who protesting, she stayed in there. In florida, the black woman who got 67 of the vote. Monique worrell. She ran on a progressive platform that maybe i disagree with, but she ran on a progressive platform that 67 of the people voted for. Thats called democracy. Ron desantis has fired her, kicked her out. Its really shocking. Then, of course, we have what happened in ohio this past week, where ohio has referendums that allow 50 of the vote to be enough to pass a referendum, a state referendum. They suddenly decide to move it up to 60 because they know theyre going to lose an abortion battle. This is it is literally antidemocratic movements to take votes away from americans. It looks like, not all republicans because i certainly have a lot of friends who are concerned about it, but it looks like the trump wing of the Republican Party, theyre all in. They dont care about democracy. They just care about power. Yeah. You know, i spent a lot of time in politics, listening to republicans lecture me about the evils of the heavy hand of government. They have now taken the heavy hand of government and done the most damaging thing you can possibly do in a democracy. That is figure out how to keep people from voting and how to cancel out peoples votes. And how to make sure that the people dont have a voice that is strong and clear at the ballot box. What happened in florida with desantis is beyond outrageous. I mean, i was an elected prosecutor. I ran for office. I think i got those kinds of numbers when i ran as a democrat in the kansas city area. I think about what it would feel like for someone to just come in arbitrarily and say, you know, i dont care what the people who voted for you said. I think i know better. That is not a heavy hand of government. Thats a hammer. That is a Sledgehammer Wiping out peoples right to be heard. What the people in ohio said this week very clearly is, we get what youre doing, and we dont agree with it. They do, in many ways, joe, they dont just do it, you know, by calling secretaries of state and saying, im going to engage in conduct to try to take away votes, they do it by trying to keep people from voting. To try to limit their ability to vote. Whether its mailin ballots or whether it is college students, the Republican Party has, over the last five to six years, has tried to circle this country with barbed wire, around people having their voices heard. I have to tell ya, people need to get on it and get out there and work as hard as they know how to stop this incredibly dangerous trend the Republican Party has made part of their foundational politics. Lets bring in former u. S. Attorney general, alberto gonzalez. He served in the george w. Bush administration, and now is the dean at the Belmont University college of law. We thank you very much for being on this morning. Mr. Attorney general, thank you so much for being with us. I have noted on this show over the past several years, republicans, like yourself, republicans that have stood up and spoken out for the rule of law, even when it doesnt break in their direction. I often quote The Wall Street Journal editorial page whenever theyve spoken out against Donald Trumps worst excesses. I have noticed, though, since the last indictment regarding january 6th, that Establishment Republicans that had been critical of Donald Trumps actions are now starting to talk about a twotiered Justice System. You know, i read something that Anne Applebaum said last week that said, if the Republican Party continues to attack the rule of law, i dont know how our Constitutional Republic survives. Thats why we were so struck by your opinion piece, and were grateful for you to be here. Can we talk about your concerns about the rule of law, the Republican Party, and how it intersects in this Trump Indictment . Sure. Joe, thanks for having me. Listen, i dont view my presence here or the oped that i wrote as intended to set republicans straight. Mainly, im there to remind republicans about what we stand for. In particular, to stand up for the department of justice. People dont realize that over 99 of the people that work at the Department Are career employees. They often dont care who the president is, who the Attorney General is, what party the Attorney General is. So they go to work day in and day out. I wanted to remind people that i think the department is doing the very best that it can. Im not saying theyre perfect. Sometimes mistakes are made, and i point that out in the opoped. By and large, they do a good job. Differences that occur sometimes in prosecutions are based upon facts, based upon the evidence, the experience of the prosecutor. Sometimes youll have perhaps different outcomes in cases that look similar but may, in fact, be very different because of the facts and the evidence that a prosecutor is able to present and get in a trial. Again, this is about a reminder of who we are as a party. You know, party for the rule of law. A party for economic and individual liberty. A party for National Security and our military. A party that believes in the value, the importance of Law Enforcement. Thats who we are as a party. I just, again, that was a motivation for the oped. Well, just to underline something that you said, that they are career professionals. Most people in the Justice Department are. For republicans, for donald Trump Supporters who are saying, oh, what about Hillary Clinton . What about hunter biden . Let me underline that donald trump wanted Hillary Clinton indicted under his department of justice, and the Attorney General said that there wasnt anything to indict her on. Those arguments are absolutely without merit. Mr. Attorney general, i want to underline once again what you said and have you continue talking about it. Because ive noticd my former party, which used to support Law Enforcement, since donald trump has become president , many people in that party have attacked the department of justice relentlessly, have attacked the fbi relentlessly. Talk about the importance of republicans doing what republicans used to do, and that is defending the rule of law and defending the Justice Department that holds that on its shoulders every day. Those professionals. Well, we all as american citizens have an obligation to respect and to protect the rule of law. Lets just get that straight. Put that on the table. But it is a department of justice that has a primary responsibility as a Government Institution to protect the rule of law, to ensure that people engage in conduct that is consistent with the laws passed by representatives of the American People. And the more the department is criticized, and sometimes the criticism is valid. Theres no question about it. Mistakes get made because the department is run, comprised of human beings, and we are all imperfect. Sometimes we make mistakes in judgment. But, by and large, they get it right. Of course, we have a system of rules of evidence and judges and independent jurors who ensure that the department gets it right in terms of moving forward on prosecutions. But the more theres criticism of the rule of law, i think the more people lose confidence in the department of justice and government generally. This is a very dangerous position to be in. The fact its okay to criticize Government Officials endlessly, its okay to ignore the rule of law, it is okay to ignore statutes and the constitution, that puts us in a very dangerous place in my judgment of the country, and i think in the judgment of many other americans. Not just republicans in this country. Mr. Attorney general, there is an interesting article, oped by Jack Goldsmith of the Bush Administration. He is more critical of the department of justice than you have been, but his biggest point is however this prosecution of donald trump pans out, it could end up weakening the Justice System in this country. If he is sent to prison or if he is found guilty, youll have a huge number of americans who believe he has been unfairly treated. Is there a way around that, do you think . Is there a way that this trial could be conducted in such a way that, actually, it would restore faith in the execution of justice in this country . Well, one way that is being discussed, and i offered up an opinion about this, as well, is to have the trial televised. Federal trials are not televised. You know, that is this is a case where perhaps it calls for public trial, so people can see how our Justice System works, can see the evidence that a prosecution is going to present, can see the defense thats put on by donald trump and his lawyers, and have faith in the outcome, in the judgment of 12 independent jurors. So that might be one way, in this particular case, where the American People may be more willing, despite what donald trump may say publicly, that the American People may be more willing to accept the outcome of the trial. Former Attorney General alberto gonzalez, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. We really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you, sir. After voters in ohio rejected a measure that would have made it harder to enshrine Abortion Rights in the state constitution, some republicans and prominent conservatives are sounding the alarm on the decisive issue. Donald trumps former Campaign Manager, bill stepien, is warning that abortion could provide, quote, rocket fuel to President Bidens reelection bid, saying, quote, there shouldnt be any Sugar Coating over what happened. It was a major setback in what became a very public fight between prochoice and prolife groups. This happened in ohio, which is not a pink state anymore. This is a state that is red. He goes on, the bigger concern is what this means for 2024. National prochoice groups are at the ready and ready to pounce. We know democrats arent excited at all about joe biden. These groups are going to provide rocket fuel to a pretty unenthusiastic candidacy and be on the ground and be knocking on doors. Were going to be Breathing Life into a pretty unenthusiastic campaign. As the Republican Party remains divided over the issue, democrats see this as a new opportunity and road map for 2024. Since the Supreme Court overturned roe v. Wade last year, abortion has been on the ballot in some shape or form in seven states, and the issue has won in every election. Claire, in montana, it won. In kansas, it won. In kentucky, it won. In ohio, it won. In michigan, it won. In vermont, it won. In california, it won. You want to talk about and, of course, in the 22 midterm elections, we heard about the red wave. Watch out, the red wave. Oh, wait, no. No red wave came. In part, when we saw those exit polls that said, like, 35 , 38 of americans said abortion was their top issue, i remember somebody commenting on tv saying, wait a sec, is that just the Democratic Party . No, its everybody. So you talk about awakening a sleeping giant, these republicans actually believed they could take away a right that americans have had for half a century, and there wouldnt be a response to it. The reaction gets more extreme by the day. Yeah. The interesting thing is the Republican Party, the base of the Republican Party, this dog has been chasing the bus for so long, that now that its caught the bus, it has not changed its behavior. They are still pushing states to go further. They are still pushing states to because now, the washington republicans, a lot of them say, well, its up to the states. What did ohio do . Ohio tried to limit the ability of the state to have a voice. In my state, theyve gone so far as to say, no exception for rape. No exception for incest. So, you know, a 13yearold girl who is being repeatedly or 12yearold girl being repeatedly raped by her uncle and gets pregnant, she cannot legally obtain an apportion in the state of missouri. By the way, even in the states where there are six weeks, she probably couldnt because the uncle told her that if she tells anybody, shes going to hurt her or hurt her mother or hurt her family. Shes afraid and doesnt even understand why she at no time didnt get her period. Shes going to be a criminal because she needs to terminate a pregnancy that occurred within her own family . Thats what theyve done, joe. They have gone so far, they have lost way more than 50 of america. Theyve lost a huge chunk of their own party. They dont seem to be able to correct this. Turnout and persuasion are the two elements of a successful election. I think were going to have a lot to say about turnout around this issue next year. Anybody that heard claires fact pattern, heard the suggestion that a 13yearold might be raped by an uncle and not be allowed to leave the state, you may think, oh, thats too extreme. Republicans would never do that. Let me remind you, the candidate that was running for governor in the state of michigan in 2022 said just that. The reason we dont want exceptions for rape is for the 14yearold girl who gets raped by her uncle, and the republican position is, keep those decisions out of the hands of the parents. Keep the decision out of the hands of the pastor or the priest thats talking to the family. Out of the health care provider, out of the Mental Health care provider. It really is makes no sense. Its a savage, cruel position to take. Yeah. About 85 of americans, 90 of americans agree with me, that thats extreme and savage. Yet, thats the position of the Republican Party. Lets bring in nbc news capitol hill correspondent ali vitali, who is back from reporting in ohio, doing way too early duties this morning, as well as sharing with us some of your reflections from being in that state during that special election, which really sent a message once again about what joe was just saying, where people stand on this issue. I love the way that you guys took the time to underscore that each time this has been on the ballot, its been a win for proponents of reproductive access. It is not just in states that youd expect, like california. The fact this is happening in kansas, in kentucky, in ohio, in red states, is really a wakeup call. I think what Senator Mccaskill is saying, that republicans have been chasing this bus and now not changing their message, what ive heard from republicans, including before this vote in ohio, is they might be the party that were chasing this bus, and now they caught it and might get run over by it. There is concern. Its founded. Each time we have seen this on the ballot since dobbs, republicans have suffered losses at the ballot box. It puts them in this really tough place going into 2024. Yes, you have most of the republican contenders who dont want to get into the weeds on the abortion issue, on the republican president ial side saying, this is back with the states now. Thats where it should be. Its fine its back in the states. Weve watched state by state so far as these referendums against Abortion Access have fallen. But at the same time, as long as the states are debating it, this rises to the national consciousness. Even if states are making the decision, it doesnt go away as a national issue. 2024 is still a national election. It is why youre seeing people like bill stepien Sound The Alarm about ohio. Its one state, fine. 2023, an off year, okay. But it has a lot of Blinking Warning Signs for republicans. When you see 3 Million People come out in the middle of august in an election that was announced pretty spontaneously by the standards of lead time that you typically have on elections, and the way people were able to come out on this, it is a warning sign. Republicans are showing no signs of changing their tune on this. You have to make it through a primary to make it to a general. But being pushed more to the right on this in the president ial primary this cycle will have big implications in 2024. And if were looking at the states still, you have to remember the fact that in arizona, theyre popping up a similar constitutional amendment push that were seeing in ohio. Its not a sure thing, but theyll vote on that in november. Were seeing similar pushes to enshrine protections in places like florida. Places like missouri could be fertile ground. Senator mccaskill knows this, it is one of the states with the most restrictions on Abortion Access. It is a salient issue, and its not going away. Ali vitali, thank you so much. Thank you. Ali talked about the blinking lights, warning signs. Montana, kentucky, kansas, i mean, states that went for trump overwhelmingly. Ohio. Ohio, a state that comfortably went for donald trump. Its been trending red. Kansas and kentucky, you kidding me . Michigan, a state that republicans before 22, republicans had control of the legislature. The house and the senate. They lost it in 22, as well as the governorship. They were routed. Then we talk about wisconsin a lot. Yup. The race for the Supreme Court that republicans were saying, conseratives were saying was one of the most important in their lifetime. They got crushed. They got crushed because the issue was, well, the fact that republicans had an 1849 abortion law. A total ban that they kept on the books, even when they were warned to moderate it, they didnt do it. Rocket fuel. Still ahead on morning joe, former President Trump says he wont be signing the Loyalty Pledge thats required to participate in the first gop primary debate. Well show you his explanation for that. Wasnt he anyhow yeah. Plus, 49 years ago, gerald ford took office and attempted to heal the wounds of watergate and help a reeling nation move on. But as donald trump faces multiple trials, would fords approach still work today . We tackle that question with president ial historian, next on morning joe. As we bind up the internal wounds of watergate, more painful and more poisonous of foreign rules, let us restore the golden rule and let Brotherly Love purge our hearts of suspicion and of of hate. Shingles. Some describe it as pulsing electric shocks or sharp, stabbing pains. This painful, blistering rash can disrupt your life for weeks. A pain so intense, you could miss out on family time. The virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you. 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Open up your world a chance for up to 4 months between treatments with vabysmo. Ask your doctor. Long National Nightmare is over. Our constitution works. Our Great Republic is a government of laws and not of men. Here, the people rule. 49 years ago yesterday, gerald ford was sworn in as the 38th president of the United States. In the wake of Richard Nixons unprecedented resignation. President fords remarks after taking the oath of office are even more poignant today as donald trump faces charges for attempting to overturn the 2020 election. Joining us now, president ial historian and ceo of the lbj foundation, mark updegrove. And the Washington Posts Eugene Robinson has the first question for you, mark. Hi, mark. Good to see ya. Listen, i think i remember that day, when gerald ford issued that pardon. It was controversial then and is still controversial now. There are people who think it was a mistake. As a historian looking back, how do you see the lessons, if there are lessons, from that moment to the situation were obviously in now, where we have a former president who is facing indictment on criminal charges . The question, eugene, is did it set a precedent that we have to live by today . The answer is it probably did. But gerald ford couldnt have seen that at the time. The reason for the pardon, which ford granted about a month after taking office he took office on august 9th, 1974, and the pardon was granted september 8th, a month later. The reason he did that, he couldnt move ahead in the office of the presidency with that hanging over the fate of the country, in some respects, and it was locking him up. He couldnt go on to the duties of being president and handling the issues that were holding us back at that time, including an economy that was suffering from stagflation and a lingering war in vietnam. So he just wanted to put it past the country, so he decided to pardon Richard Nixon. It is interesting, eugene, because, later, ford was asked what the Disqualifying Trait for the presidency should be. He said, arrogance. This was just four years after leaving the office. He said, arrogance. Not that the American People would ever elect an arrogant president , but if you got an arrogant president , viciously arrogant, god, help the country. He couldnt have foreseen donald trump, but if he had, i doubt he would have granted that pardon. Mark, give us a sense of the difference in the country in 73 and in today in america. I mean, if youre thinking of how america did overcome, it got beyond watergate, healed itself to some extent. Do you see that as possible after the trump years and the calcification of politics weve been talking on this show for the last few weeks and months, or do you think we are in such a different time now that we cant get beyond donald trump . It is a dramatically different time, katty. One of the things im struck by when you hear those inaugural remarks by gerald ford 49 years ago, is he talks about the constitution still work. Here, the people rule. You know, the system worked at that time. Yeah. The most remarkable thing about the resignation of Richard Nixon is that he was getting pressure from his party to resign the office. Just before his resignation on august 8th, when he announced to the American People that he would not stay in the office, he was visited by three republicans, republican leaders. The republican leader of the house, john rhodes, the republican leader of the senate, hue scott, and conservative stalwart barry goldwater. They urged nixon in the face of all of the evidence that was mounting around watergate, to resign from the presidency. Nixon did that for the good of the country. It hurt nixon for sure, but he did it for the good of the country. And you saw republicans putting country above party. So it was a very different time in american politics. In my opinion, katty, much of this is around the cul of personality that is donald trump. The difference between today and almost half a censure are ago is, to my mind, the information landscape. Conservatives are getting a very different stream of information from conservative news outlets, a different narrative and truth. Mark, it is interesting that you point out that republicans could have power if they took it. If they banded together and confronted him, it could be a powerful moment for, frankly, the help of our country. But im interested in your perspective on the relationship between trump and nixon. It almost seemed to me that trump really admired nixon for breaking the law, maybe not for resigning, but for breaking the law. Talk about how their relationship developed, particularly after nixon left the white house. Nixon wrote trump a letter that trump displayed in the white house, in which i believe pat nixon had seen donald trump on phil donahue. He said, i didnt see the program, but mrs. Nixon says you have the stuff. You know, you have something. If you ever did go into politics, then good luck. I dont remember the exact content, but it was a very encouraging letter from Richard Nixon. I dont know trumps view of nixon, but he was flattered by the attention of Richard Nixon. This was somebody who wanted to be around power, who wanted all the flattery he could get. So getting some from a former president was, im sure, very fulfilling to donald trump at that time. President ial historian and ceo of the lbj foundation, mark updegrove, thank you very much for being on this morning. A former top official for the Southern Baptist convention is sounding the alarm on the state of evangelical christianity in america. In an interview with npr, the editor in chief of christianity today, Russell Moore, declared christianity in the u. S. To be in, quote, crisis, and warned that conservative christians are now rejecting the Teachings Of Jesus as, quote, liberal Talking Points. Take a listen. Well, it was the result of having multiple pastors tell me essentially the same story, about quoting the Sermon On The Mount parenthetically in their preaching, turn the other cheek, to have somebody say after, what did you get the liberal Talking Point . What was alarming to me, in most scenarios when the pastor would say, im literally quoting jesus christ, the response would not be, i apologize. The apologize would be, yes, but that doesnt work anymore. Thats weak. When we get to the point where the Teachings Of Jesus himself are seen as subversive to us, then were in a crisis. Well, we are in a crisis. Those of us that grew up in the Evangelical Church, because the radicalism of jesus was what the romans didnt understand about jesus, what the world didnt understand about jesus, gene robinson, was that what he sought was the antithesis of power. Exactly. When asked about the government and taxes, hes like, render to ceasar what is his and that what is the governments to the government. Look at easter. It is a perfect example of that. The teachings of the church have been twisted beyond recognition with church members, and some pastors, pushing one lie after another lie after another lie about jesus, and twisting and contorting his words, his gospel, even the Sermon On The Mount. Yes. This is, i think the technical term for this is blasphemy. This is blasphemous. This is wrong. Jesus was seen as a mortal threat to that sort of authoritarian power. And the idea that people can call themselves evangelical christians and, yet, not just fail to live according to the words of jesus, but outright reject the words of jesus, reject what jesus said in the Sermon On The Mount, in his other teachings, is just astounding to me. I dont understand. I dont see how that is how that is possible. I think that is not possible. I think they are not evangelical christians if they reject the words of jesus. That simply is that cant be. Claire . Yeah, talk about a weird moment. Ill tell you when it crystallized for me. There has been no one who has been more representative of the evangelical movement in politics than mike pence. Now, think about this scenario. He is in front of an evangelical crowd in iowa. I mean, these are very these are the people that live their life through the church. The Evangelical Church. He comes out and is booed consistency and constantly booed, and this man has done nothing but just cleave to the Evangelical Church throughout his career, in the way he has voted, in the way he has held office, and they booed him. They didnt boo him because he doesnt believe in jesus. They didnt boo him because he doesnt understand the beatitudes. They booed him because he had the nerve to follow the constitution. Because yeah. That shows you how far down the rabbit hole the evangelical movement has gone. Because, in these circles, it has nothing to do with the beattitudes, nothing to do with the Sermon On The Mount, nothing about the words of jesus christ. Its all about power. Whenever somebody talks about donald trump, oh, hes the servant of god. Oh, my god. Hes this, that, the other. You know, just start in the Sermon On The Mount. Just start in matthew. Read the beattitudes and find one that belongs to him. Blessed are the meek, the merciful. Blessed are the pure in heart. Blessed are the peacemakers. I mean, blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. I mean, again, we all fail. We all fall short. But he has intoxicated them. But you just look at Everything Jesus said. From matthew 5 to the end of matthew 7, the Sermon On The Mount, none of them, none of those characteristics seem to line up, even evangelicals would say, with jesus teachings. When Russell Moore talks about how pastors are complaining that they cant even teach the words of jesus anymore without members of their congregation coming up and calling them liberal Talking Points, its kind of its a trump infection. Easy to see why the pews are emptying out. Coming up, were less than two weeks away from the first republican president ial debate. So far, eight candidates have qualified. Our next guest is hoping to secure a spot on the stage. Former arkansas governor Asa Hutchinson joins us next on morning joe. Im your overly competitive brother. Check. Psych and im about to steal this game from you just like i stole kelly carter in high school. You got no game dude, thats a foul and now youre ready to settle the score. Game over. And if you dont have the right Home Insurance coverage, well, you could end up paying for all this yourself. So get allstate, and be better protected from mayhem, yeah, like me. Thanks, bro. Take a lap, rookie. Real mature. With fastsigns, signage that gets you noticed turns hot lots into homes. Fastsigns. Make your statement. Welcome back. The first republican primary debate is coming up in less than two weeks, and former President Trump says he will not be signing the rncs Loyalty Pledge that is required to participate. When youre at 75 , 80 , and other guys are at zero, 1 , 2 , 3 , you do say, whats the upside . Am i going to go up one point . But they could go up. You know, theyre not dumb people. Theyre senators. Theyre governors. Theyre intelligent people. You have some very good people. I think you have some very good people, and you have some people i mean, i have a problem with the debate for another reason. I wouldnt sign the pledge. Why would i sign a pledge . Theres people on there i wouldnt have. I wouldnt have certain people as, you know, somebody id endorse. They want you to sign a pledge, but i can name three or four people that i wouldnt support for president. Meanwhile, the hill is reporting that florida Governor Ron Desantis has signed the Loyalty Pledge. According to the outlet, desantis and entrepreneur Vivek Ramaswamy are the only two gop candidates to have met the other qualifications for the first debate and signed the pledge. Joining us from des moines, iowa, is republican president ial candidate and former governor of arkansas, Asa Hutchinson. Its great to have you back on the show. So what is it going to take to get on that debate stage . Is it possible . Absolutely. Weve met the criteria for polling, which was a big lift for us. Then, secondly, we have to have 40,000 donors. Were over halfway there. Weve got a ways to go. We have a couple weeks to do it. So the answer is, if you want to want somebody on the debate stage that will speak the truth about donald trump, go to asa2024. Com. Give us a dollar. That helps us get there. So its all up to the people of america to help us get on the debate stage. I expect to be there, and i look forward to it. Talks about how great the economy is, but the fact is inflation has been baked into the price of goods, and that strains the pocketbooks of families. Secondly, the Interest Rates are up which causes its more difficult for young people to get homes, to buy a car. So its the Economic Issues thats going to be focused on in 2024, and part of that is our Energy Policy, and whenever you look at our Energy Policy, i do believe we need to have environmentally friendly means of production, but weve got to produce. Weve got to produce from all sources because thats the integral part of the success of our economy as well. Right. The governor of the yesterday from the Energy Department that the United States is producing more oil than ever before. Theres going to be a recordbreaking year. Do we need to do even more than that . Well, i do think we do. We have to have a Consistent Energy policy, and that was the challenge with President Biden at first. He said he wanted to go all green, and then we wound up going to venezuela and others, saudi arabia, to say, hey. Can you produce more . And so thats not a good position for the United States of america. So whenever there is turmoil in the world, we need to have consistent production, and we have to have sufficient energy that we can help support our allies and friends as well. Governor, how do you square that with what weve seen over the course of the summer, what we saw in hawaii just yesterday which is all of the evidence, is mounting evidence of Climate Change and a planet that is rapidly warming . How would you how would you would you keep on some of what President Biden has done for the Climate Change agenda . Some of it would stay in place, but we need to have a progrowth Energy Policy in an environmentally sensitive way as we can, but we cant penalize the United States with holding back on our production if the world is not going to meet their obligations as well, and so yes. We need to take the environment and Climate Change very seriously. It starts with each individual. The government has a responsibility. I just worry about artificial not artificial, but timelines that are too severe that really makes us in jeopardy in terms of our economy, but also in terms of our quality of life and our competitiveness with other countries. Governor, its almost startling to hear a president ial candidate in the Republican Party talking about issues. Clearly your party has drifted from the things that i always heard republicans talk about. Smaller government, energy production, free trade policies, but i want to circle back to the debate. I want to circle back to this requirement that you have to find 20,000 more people to give you at least a dollar in order for you to get on the debate stage. When i watched, which was fascinating to me is you have a couple of rich candidates, and i think the governor in south dakota or whatever, and the other guy whos a rich tech guy, theyre offering people 20 to give them a dollar. Now call me oldfashioned, but that feels like theyre buying somebodys vote and support which last time i looked was not an american principle of democracy. As a prosecutor, i would have gone in i know you have been a prosecutor. I would have gone after people who were trying to buy peoples votes or participation in a democracy like a debate. So what is your feeling about that . Should they be looked at by the ftc that is a wonder at this point . Shouldnt it be wrong theyre paying people to give them money . No. Im not criticizing them and their means of collecting the 40,000, but the fact is im not a selffunded candidate, and the rnc rules is burdensome on the candidate instead of focusing on other ways of raising money and focusing on other styles of campaign. Ive got to spend all of my time at the iowa state fair trying to get on the stage with 1 contributions. Thats not helpful and its not good for our democratic process. When you talk about the issues though, i just want to make this point that i want to be in the minority. I assume donald trump not participate in the debate because we want to talk about the issues and i think theres a lot of contrast between the republican candidates as it stands and it would be nice to be able to have that serious policy discussion, but if he participates, he will be the focus and ill be out there speaking the truth about hes not the right leader for our country. All right. Republican president ial candidate, former governor Asa Hutchinson, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. Great to be with you. Thank you. And coming up great to have you. Were getting a better look at the devastation in hawaii. Wildfires have killed at least 36 people. Well get a live report from maui. Plus, the benefits reaped by Justice Clarence thomas from a network of wealthy patriots during his three decades on the Supreme Court. It appears to be far more expensive than previously understood. Well have that brandnew reporting. Also ahead, new developments in Donald Trumps legal troubles including how his twitter account played a role in the special counsels investigation. And the potential fourth criminal indictment coming for the former president as the Fulton County d. A. Is expected to present her trump election case to a grand jury in georgia next week. Well be right back. Ight back. From prom dresses. To workouts. And new adventures. You hope the more you give the less theyll miss. But even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past. They may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. Although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. Now as youre thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need, make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination. The will states that mr. Marbles will receive everything he needs in perpetuity. Thanks to autoship from chewy. I always love that old man. And he gets the summer house. What . [narrator] save more on what they love and never run out with autoship from chewy. This woman is not a capable woman. Shes a woman that has and maybe a change of mind, and i dont know what shes doing. I really dont know. All i know is kotb have done it 2 1 2 years ago. If she was going to do something, and this is about a perfect phone call a call where im questioning the election. Im telling them that in my opinion, the election was rigged. You need people with courage, you know, bill barr was a coward. He was afraid to do things. He was afraid he was going to be impeached, and i was very rough on him. I will say. I said, you have to do something. Youre an american. You have to do something, bill, and he just was a coward. He was afraid to do anything. Jack smith, hes like a hes like a deranged individual, and i think were doing very well with that guy, but he is hes a sick puppy. He needs to trademark the confession because it really is so true. Everything donald trump ever says in his confession are projection. He said bill barr did everything he could do to defend donald trump until donald trump told him a couple of weeks before the election, i need you to arrest my opponent and his family and throw them in jail so i can win the presidency, the election. I mean, that is straight out of a fascist dictatorship, and so bill barr after ive got to say, humiliating himself for several years, bill barr decides, this is where i get off. This is enough. This is my line. I may believe in an imperial presidency, but not a fascist presidency. Thats what donald trump was asking him to do, asking him to steal an election, asking him to arrest his political opponents, and asking him do the sort of things again that fascist dictators do. He wouldnt do it and so now trump turned on him, and jack myth and everything else. We can point you back to what we were saying in 2019, that if donald trump lost in 2020, he would run again, and he would run again simply to avoid all the crimes he was committing. Again, im not good at math, but that was four years ago. Four years ago we were saying, he will run again so he can try to avoid jail. Going to jail, and so here we are. I must say a lot of people were saying that. So its hard to believe anybodys stupid enough watching that show to completely forget that we all saw this coming like a Freight Train out of the mist, and now he says this when hes running to try to avoid jail time as we have been saying for four years. That was by the way, donald trump going after his former Attorney General, bill barr. Also the prosecutors seeking to hold him accountable for his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. Well have the new developments on the former president s legal troubles that now include his twitter account. They didnt want to turn the information over to the government. In fact, they wanted to run and rat out the government to donald trump. Meanwhile, trumps former Campaign Manager is calling the results of tuesdays special election in ohio, quote, rocket fuel for the democrats. Well have much more on the fallout from the Republican Party. Plus, the latest from hawaii where raging wildfires have turned deadly overnight. Well have the very latest. With us this morning, we have u. S. Special correspondent for bbc news, caddy kay, Eugene Robinson, and matt lewis joins us this morning, and we begin with a new court ruling that has revealed months before charging donald trump. Jack smiths office executed a Search Warrant of the former president s twitter account. According to the redacted ruling made public yesterday, the Justice Department executed the warrant back in january despite being challenged by the Elon Muskowned company. Musk refused to turn over trumps account at first because of his objections to apart of the warrant that barred twitter from informing the former president that his account was being searched. It was a criminal investigation. The billionaire claimed that the order, quote, violated the companys First Amendment right. Its a little flexible these days by the way. With the former president to communicate to communicate with the former president. Twitter was held in contempt of court and forced to comply after a judge ruled that there was, quote, probable cause to search the account for evidence of criminal offenses. The judge also found, quote, reasonable grounds to believe that telling trump about the search beforehand would give him the chance to destroy potential evidence. Its unclear what evidence smiths office wanted as a result of the warrant. Youll remember trumps twitter account was banned in the days following the january 6th attack, but it was restored last year after musk purchased the company. Nbc news has reached out to trumps lawyers and twitter which has now been renamed x for comment. Didnt get any. Gene robinson, i must say its fascinating. A bit fascinating that a company that bent over backwards to do what Chinese Communist party wants them to do and other dictatorships, what they want them to do are now worried about First Amendment rights and said, oh, we need to notify donald trump even though this that would actually hamper the investigation. Yeah. They have no problem following Government Instructions orders or restrictions elsewhere in the world, especially in china. They have a Problem Doing what the u. S. Courts instruct them to do, which theyre legally required to do, and which they finally did after being sanctioned and fined. Its, you know, whats fascinating about this is one worries and one wonders what is in that account they wanted to go after. Are they trying to, you know, something that you cant see publicly . Are they trying to get into his direct messages . Its unclear to me exactly what it is, but clearly jack smith thought there was something in there, and well see what it was, i guess in the form of some time when it comes out in court. Joining us now, nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken delanian. Whats your take on the twitter story or x . Mika, i think eugene is absolutely onto something there because obviously Donald Trumps tweets are public. You can go online and find that old account which has been dormant for two years, but whats not public are direct messages or for example, drafts of tweets that were never sent or metadata that would show it from a phone or desktop. The outtakes that trump was making on january 6th, a message to the rioters, and the point of that was trying to figure out what he didnt say, what he didnt want to say, what he proposed to say, the speculation and a lot of people were wondering if thats one of the things, and another fastnaming thing about this thats comical is for a few days, smith and his team reached out to twitter through the channel they had established for Legal Process and nobody responded because elon musk had gutted staff of the place to an extent that any of us who reached out to the Press Operation found the same problem. The special counsel finally gets through, and then twitter delays and they were fined 350,000 by the court for that initial reluctance to comply with again, a Search Warrant. Not a subpoena because this is getting content which is protected by the fourth amendment. So you need to go to a judge and Show Evidence of crime. So very significant development. Well have to see how it figures in the case. Yeah. So obviously a lot of all of President Trumps tweets are public and they can be found in a different way, a draft of a tweet. Is that saved . If you type something out, does anyone know, and then you erase it, is it all in there . Is that what you are looking for . Youre asking me that because im a technological whiz kid. It begs the question, if theyre in search of a crime, you wonder where that is. Im not even a simple Country Lawyer, but i dont see how something thats written in drafts which would be your thoughts that you didnt put into action, that seems less personal than things that have been sent to your dms or that you have written to Somebody Else. Its not a form of communication he favors. Did he send a lot of dms . I dont know whether his account is full of the conversations effectively which is what direct messages are, one to one conversations. Is it full of the kind of direct conversations that he might have been having that would be useful with prosecutors . Its intriguing. Itll be interesting. Im sure well finally know. We will get to know during the trial what happened, but it will be intriguing what this led to. So the Trump Campaign is taking on the former president s indictment in a new attack ad. I knew you were going to say this. If they went searching, its because somebody on his staff said Something Like, you should check the direct messages or you should trek the drafts. Hes given Somebody Else the password so anybody can open up and see the drafts, like, theyre just not going to do that fishing expedition. I was just thinking as we were talking about it, if they went searching there, they went searching because a trumper who worked on the inside of trumps team said, you want to know how we communicated . Go there. This attack ad, the minutelong Television Spot names the prosecutors and investigators that brought charges against him, connecting them to President Biden. A majority of the ad focuses on Fulton County d. A. Connie willis, and found a number of inaccurate and misleading accusations. Willis addressed this in an email to her staff calling it derogatory and false. The ad is scheduled to air frequently in Fulton County, georgia, and its timed to air as willis prepares to bring charges against trump and his allies and were looking at maybe next week. That is just specifically designed to influence a future jury pool by actually doing a hit job against Law Enforcement. When you do a hit job against Law Enforcement, spread all of these lies and what are you doing . What you are doing is, again, youre tampering with the jury pool. Absolutely. I think the interesting thing is that what, four indictments now trying to not look into them, but in georgia legally the people i talk to im not even a Country Lawyer either. They say that the, you know, whats happening like in georgia for example, and the maralago case, that both of those cases would legally be very easy to prove, whereas the January 6th Case legally, even though obviously what trump did was in, you know, in my opinion, he incited the riot, but legally hard to prove, but the difference is venue. If you are having a trial in washington, d. C. , thats going to be a very different jury pool than if you are having it in florida, and i do think obviously donald trump is engaged in, you know, preempted witness tampering. Joe, to your point about the twitter thing, i think that is the other interesting thing, like, im looking to all of these conservative legal experts who are talking about the january 6th trial, and theyre basically saying, yeah, what trump did is horrible, but im not sure he broke the law. Its going to be hard to prove that he actually broke the law, and i think the thing to keep in mind is that jack smith knows things we dont yet know, and whether its somebody flipping on him as you sort of suggested, whether its, you know, his former Chief Of Staff or whoever, there may be details that come out that are like this, but we dont yet know what jack smith knows. Ken, i want you to underline that. Ill just make notes again over the past several days. I have been disturbed by the fact that Establishment Republicans who claim to be antitrump, even if they were antiantitrump at the same time, they said, oh, this is jack smith. This is about the First Amendment or what about Hunter Bidens laptop or a lot of different distractions from smith and january 6th. The republican establishment that was antitrump is scurrying back to him claiming somehow that jack smith is attacking donald trump for using his First Amendment rights. We saw that memo yesterday, and my gosh, the conspiracy that was hatched, it seems to me again and i dont know as much about the law as you im sure, but it seems to me to be a laughable thing. This has nothing to do with the First Amendment. This is a conspiracy to push fake electors on mike pence to change and discount the votes of tens of millions of americans. And joe, not all of the republican establishment is trying to justify it. You may have noticed that alberto gonzalez, the Bush Administration Attorney General wrote an oped the other day and came out and said, look. This indictment is very strong, and im disturbed that my fellow republicans and pundits on fox news are impugning the Justice System and the Justice Department that he used to lead because he knows that its filled with nonpolitical, nonpartisan people who are trying to pursue the rule of law, and in his view, the indictment was quite strong. So youre absolutely right. The memo we learned about yesterday by the harvardtrained lawyer from wisconsin, it appears to be the blueprint for the people. Theres language in there that says we should only execute this if there are plausible legal claim that is we think will show fraud. That wasnt false electors were voting in december, 2020. There were no plausible legal claims and they went forward anyway, and that was the crux of the issue there. I want to talk abjure tampering and trumps, you know, inflammatory criticism of prosecutors and now the judge in the federal case. I have been talking to legal experts and wrote a piece about this which will be public later today, and its a really horrible dilemma that all of these judges are in because donald trump is running for president and political speech is the most protected speech under the First Amendment, and yet normally a criminal defendant would not be allowed to get away with trying to influence the jury pool by impugning the prosecutors, but a lot of experts i talk to, even ones very critical of trump think that the judges will have no choice but to let him do almost everything except threaten like he did the other day with, you know, if you come after me, im coming after you. That is what they think would cross the line, if he starts posting things that would be perceived as threats to the judge or prosecutors. Then youll be in this horrible situation where what do the judges leverage . They can fine him, but the ultimate leverage is they can throw him in jail, and now were into this situation where a person with Lifetime Secret Service protection, can he be jailed in how do marshals react . We are in really dangerous, Uncharted Territory with these cases with the former president. Coming up with this weeks vote in ohio, a roadmap for 2024. Democrats think so, and they want to make reproductive rights a centerpiece of the president ial campaign. Well dig into that reporting from nbc morning news. Morning joe is coming right back. Shingles. Some describe it as an intense Burning Sensation or an unbearable itch. This painful, blistering rash can disrupt your life for weeks. It could make your workday feel impossible. The virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you. If youre 50 years or older, ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingles. At bombas, we make the comfiest socks, underwear, and tshirts that feel good, and most of all, do good. 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You really went all out didnt you . Um, its called commitment. Could you turn down the volume . Here, you can try. Get way more into what your into when you stream on the xfinity 10g network. In an interview last night, trump essentially admitted that he interfered in georgias 2020 election. To georgias Secretary Of State, prad raffensperger. I believe i won that election by many, many, many, Hundreds Of Thousands of votes. Thats what i think, and i expressed that on the phone call, and i said, i dont know what the number looks like, 11,000 or something. I said, what i need is 11,000 votes. I won this thing by Hundreds Of Thousands of votes. Thats my opinion. Its a strong opinion, and i think its worn out by the facts and well see that. Yeah, and i think i won the masters in 1987. Im going to go take the trophy from the first person they awarded it to. I think i have more number one hits and gold records than the beatles and Rolling Stones combined, and i think come on. He thinks he won by we have to do a disclaimer. He didnt win by Hundreds Of Thousands of votes and news max actually did a disclaimer saying they knew that joe biden legally won the contest, but this idea didnt have to ask him. This idea that donald trump and his trumpers, and just because he says he believes and somebody said yesterday, he owns all the money in the bank, doesnt mean he can have a conspiracy like an oceans 12 conspiracy. Or oceans 13, i forget which one it was, to have brad pitt to break in and take all the money out of the bank. Yeah. Yet again, another admission. Ied to him i needed 11,000, but that perfect phone call, not sounding so perfect anymore, gene. No, its not. I think that was oceans 11 when they took the bags full of money out of the casino, but in any of that no. You cant just say, you know, i believed that i was a billionaire and go rob a bank. You cant just say, i believed i had won the state, and then then not just asked, but pressure and try to intimidate the georgia Secretary Of State into illegally inventing or changing 11,780 votes so you could then have won the state by one vote. Its, you know, the perfect phone call, right . It was perfect for prosecutors who are trying to prove what donald trump did. This is this is astounding, and it is sit a riot that he ran the disclaimer afterwards. Obviously they have a better purchase on reality than donald trump does, and also they see what trump is doing in continually coming out with this stuff. Yeah. I think we have that disclaimer. Its kind of a strange way of covering it, but here. Take a look at how it plays out. I totally dispute that. I think its ridiculous what happened, and that they allowed that to happen, and that to me, we dont want anybody to talk about it. We have to make sure they dont cheat on the elections. Will they do it again . Will they cheat again . Were not going to let them. I believe i won that election by many, many votes. Many, many Hundreds Of Thousands of votes. Thats what i think. The Election Results as legal and final. Oh my god. Its so rich. So rich. They just have to pop that in pop it in. Because dont want to get sued. It cost fox 87 million to keep churning up the lies. Theyre now liable for maybe up to another billion dollars. News max famously had that are Morning Anchor get up out of the chair when they were spreading lice. It was one of the great moves in recent cable news history, got up and just walked off the set, left the chair there, but, you know, they, you know, they sit there and they let him spew lies for an interview knowing that theyre lies knowing they have to say a disclaimer. And saying a disclaimer because they know theyre letting him lie through the entire interview. I think Donald Trumps entire argument now at least in 2 of the 4 cases is the George Costanza facts, right . Not a lie if i believe its true, and so he has to commit to the bit, and actually the news max thing reminds me a little bit of professional wrestling, you know, where Donald Trumps the favorite or whatever, and hes in this act, and now when they cut back to the analysis at the end, they have to were now calling it World Wrestling entertainment and not the World Wrestling federation. This is entertainment for some, but i think the damage is done though to be honest. I dont know if the disclaim aert end we find it obviously hilarious and very telling. For people who are watching the Wrestling Fans so to speak, i dont know if the disclaimer matters to them at the end, and so but it is its surreal and very postmodern after that. And ken, before we end the block, i want to hear a little bit more about this fbi raid in utah where a man was killed. Tell us what happened. Its a tragic segue from, you know, false claims on news max to a story about a trump supporter, 75yearold Craig Robertson in provo, utah who had been posting things like in september, the time is right for a president ial assassination or two. First joe, then kamala, and then the fbi decided to go and try to arrest him yesterday morning at 6 00 a. M. With President Biden coming to the region, and as they were serving that arrest warrant, they say he was armed and they shot him to death, but he has been threatening not only the president and the Vice President , but d. A. Alvin bragg of new york, the Attorney General there, leticia letitia james, and he had on a trump hat in a sniper suit. He was living in his own reality. This is the tragedy that enpseudo. This is not a oneoff. There was just an analysis that threats against Public Officials across the country have absolutely spiked in the last year, and thats just looking at federal charges. Many of them are not captured around the country, but theres a climate of angry rhetoric that has erupted into actual action, threats and action like weve never seen before, and so these words of these politicians today that in many cases as you just demonstrated are false, they have consequences, guys. Coming up, one of our next guests is a lifelong republican who describes donald trump and his allies this way during the january 6th hearing. A clear and present danger to american democracy. Well speak with retired judge, michael luttig, a long time conservative whos raising alarms about the expresident s attack on democracy. Morning joe is coming right back. Back tomize your Car Insurance so you only pay for what you need. You could save 700 dollars just by switching. Ooooh, let me put a reminder on my phone. On the top of the pile oh. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. I suffer with Psoriatic Arthritis and psoriasis. Only pay for what you need. 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Republicans in congress say if we just cut taxes even more for the biggest corporations the money will eventually someday trickle trickle down to you. Right. Joe biden would rather just stop those corporations from charging so damn much. Capping the cost of drugs like insulin. Cracking down on Surprise Medical Bills and all those crazy junk fees. Theres more work to do. Tell the president to keep lowering costs for middle class families. Really quickly, i want to go back to you, and i want to expand on what i was saying about the lies that people are being told about the fbi. Yeah. Fox news and donald trump and trumpers are telling people the fbi is coming to kick down your door and kill you. What happens when the fbi shows up at somebodys door whos been threatening to assassinate and planning to assassinate the president of the United States and the Vice President of the United States . He comes out shooting because hes been told by fox news and the trumpers that when the fbi shows up, theyre going to kick down your door and kill you. So so so yeah. So you actually you talk about reallife consequences. Mmhmm. These lies create reallife consequences, and put the lives of Law Enforcement officers on the line and make their already tough and dangerous jobs even more dangerous. Absolutely. So after after this incident in utah, you know, what it tells the authorities, the fbi and local police and others that because of this this rhetoric thats being spread by what used to be the Law And Order Party Obviously its not now. The next time they have to they have to go in with more armor and more weapons because theyre likely confront somebody who shoots next time. I mean, this is words have consequences. Words are dangerous. Lies have consequences, and and it is just shocking to me as somebody who remembers the way that hippies talked about the fbi in 1967. Its just shocking to me to hear the Republican Party not just adopting that rhetoric, but turbo charging it, and and essentially saying that the, you know, the fbis a bunch of storm troopers who are going to come in and kill you. Its its just astounding to me, and the donald trump just sort of, i guess, unplugged the plug and allowed all of this just stuff to come out, but wow. Its just amazing, and what a tragedy yesterday. That 75yearold believes the lies. Thats the tragedy. Thats the danger is the guardrails are taken off because they hear this on tv. They hear it from politicians, and so theyre ready to start their own civil war when Law Enforcement comes to check on the fascination threat. I wonder how the judge will be dealing with trumps, quote, political speech with her experience, with the january 6th rioters and seeing how infected their minds were. It will be interesting to see how affected she might be by some of the words that are out there. Yeah. Maybe more than others. You never know. Still ahead on morning joe, whats driving the day on wall street. Were joined by cnbc host of morning bell, and morning joe is back in a moment. Nd morning joe is back in a moment from prom dresses. To workouts. And new adventures. You hope the more you give the less theyll miss. But even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past. They may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. Although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. Now as youre thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need, make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination. My cpa told me i wouldnt qualify for the erc tax refund, so i called innovation refunds. Their team of independent tax attorneys will work with your cpa to determine if your company is eligible. [whip sound] take the first step to see if your Small Business qualifies. Your record label is taking off. But so is your sound engineer. 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[ applause ] this is an outrage, but under this tyranny, Elected Officials can be removed simply for Political Purposes and by a whim of the governor and no matter how you feel about me, you should not be okay with that. That is Monique Warrell who was an elected Florida State attorney slamming Governor Ron Desantis after he abruptly descended her yesterday. This is the second time he has removed an Elected Official from their position. An Elected Official. An Elected Official. Both were democrats who were replaced by republicans. His Executive Order accuses her of underprosecuting crime, but she says this is an attempt to jump start his president ial primary bid. She has vowed to run for her position again, but before he does that, she joins us now right here on morning joe. Good to have you on. Good morning. Thank you so much for being with us. I have to admit i mean i have been my family moved to florida, like, over 40 years ago. I have been involved in politics and intimately involved in politics for a very long time. I just ive got to say. Despite all that, even i am shocked that a governor can just boot out somebody who was elected by the people. Thats Everybody Needs to understand you werent appointed by anybody. You were elected by the people, and as you said, this sort of Dictator Move is it really is shocking. Whats been the response from your constituents and people who voted for you just three years ago . Well, you know, youre right. It is shocking, and the nation should be shocked by that because essentially we are dealing with a dictator. Were dealing with someone who is overreaching his Political Authority and removing a little bit removing Elected Officials simply for not being politically aligned with him. Typically the Removal Rules were used to remove individuals who had been arrested or convicted of crimes or individuals who had fallen into addiction and werent able to properly perform their duties, but now this governor is using these rules to remove people who simply are democrats or remove Elected Officials in democratic counties which hes retaliating against because they didnt support him in the election. This is a sad day in florida. Its a sad day in america, and the whole country should be watching because if were not careful, this could become the next president of the United States. The thing is theres nothing conservative about this guy. Im a conservative. Im a small government conservative. We believe the power starts at the local level, and anything the local level can do, you give it to the local level. If they cant do it, the state level does and it they cant do it, the federal level does it. Everything is upside down with desantis. Hes, like, a centralized state, like, authoritarian. Whether heres banning Small Businesses from running their businesses the way they want during covid, or banning are going after baseball teams, but now here this seems to be an even greater breach. Im curious, what do your constituents what do the people of your district think about you being elected, you campaigning, you debating, you running against another candidate, you winning the election, and then him just unilaterally deciding to fire you, to push you to the side for a Campaign Talking Point . Well, people are upset. Theres no, you know, doubt about that. I ran on a very specific platform, and i kept my word. I stood by the things that i said that i would do based on research and analysis of the criminal legal system over my 20 years of practice. I talked about mass incarceration in this country and how florida leads the nation in incarceration, and i ran on a platform of implementing things that would change that, using the Strong Arm Of The Law when necessary, but also implementing programs that would divert people from the criminal system, and the constituents are upset. They are angry because their votes have been stolen from them. They elected someone to govern according to their values, and thats been stripped away, and he didnt put in someone who was close in ideology or anything like that because there was some, you know, malfunction with my way of doing things. He put someone in who was completely opposite of what the people elected and what the people wanted all at a time when crime is down in central florida. So there is no Public Safety reason for him to take this step. There is strictly a political reason, and you said it best, to jump start his failed president ial campaign. Coming up, former secretary of Homeland Security, jeh johnson weighs in on the growing number of threats being made against Public Officials. Thats straight ahead on morning joe. I was stuck. Unresolved Depression Symptoms were in my way. I needed more from my antidepressant. Vraylar helped give it a lift. Adding vraylar to an antidepressant. Is clinically proven to help relieve overall Depression Symptoms. Better than an antidepressant alone. And in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Report unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. Antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. Report fever, stiff muscles, or confusion, as these may be lifethreatening, or uncontrolled Muscle Movements, which may be permanent. High blood sugar, which can lead to coma or death, weight gain, and high cholesterol may occur. Movement dysfunction and restlessness are common side effects. Stomach and sleep issues, dizziness, increased appetite, and fatigue are also common. Side effects may not appear for several weeks. I didnt have to change my treatment. I just gave it a lift. Ask about vraylar and learn how abbvie could help you save. Im saving with liberty mutual, mom. They customize your Car Insurance so you only pay for what you need. You could save 700 dollars just by switching. Ooooh, let me put a reminder on my phone. On the top of the pile oh. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. If i had to name ten artists that ive been involved with, hes in the top five. Most memorable artist. He was a Wandering Spirit around the city. When he sang, it was like, whoa, this guys got it. We expected big things and he did absolutely nothing. How many records do you think he sold in america . In america . Six. Nobody had even heard of him. How can that be . To us, it was one of the most favorite records of all time. He was the first opposition to apartheid. Oh wow. Two south africans search for rodriguez, the greatest songwriter most people have never heard of. He released two albums in the 70s that flopped in the u. S. , but became massively successful in south africa, where he was compared to such legends as bob dylan and cat stevens. The owner of a capetown record store, said to me of us south africans, he was the sound track to our lives. Heres the thing. Rodriguez appeared to have no idea of his success. He quit music and settled down in detroit, started a family and made a living through manual labor. It wasnt until 1997 when one of his daughters discovered a website dedicated to him that rodriguez learned of his success abroad. Rodriguez passed away on tuesday at the age of 81. Joining us now is one of his daughters, Sandra Rodriguez kennedy along with the founder of light in the Attic Records matt sullivan, whose label reissued rodriguezs albums. Wow. Its always been such an extraordinary story. Were sorry, first of all, for the passing of your father and certainly thinking about you and your family now. We thought this would be a wonderful time to celebrate his remarkable life and legacy and what he meant to south africans fighting apartheid, all while he was basically a day laborer in detroit. Tell us about that incredible life that your father lived and what youre the proudest of. Im extremely proud of him for pursuing his musical career amidst, you know, people telling him work in auto plants or get a real job. He just persevered as the artist he is and has always been. I was born in 1964, and i knew from birth that he was a rock star and i loved the songs as much as his fans. We have a lot of relationships, my father and i. Were business partners, were musicians, were friends, were politicals, were activists. Hes my father. So he belongs to me as much as he belongs to the world and his global audience. Yeah, thank you. Much gratitude to everyone for their well wishes and condolences and their outpouring of love. I can feel it. Its a vibration. He had a vibration of love and wisdom, and he shared that with us. So im grateful for him, the way his mind works. Yeah. Matt, it is hard to fathom that he was working with people say, yeah, i used to be a musician. Really . Come on, man. Theres that moment where he first plays and youre like, this cant be real. And then he steps out on stage in south africa in 1998 and you look at the faces of the people. Its literally like elvis came back to life. There are people that were weeping and cheering. He just stood on stage and they just cheered and kept screaming. He was so humble. He said, thank you for keeping me alive. I have a feeling this extraordinary story and his music will stay alive for a long time. Talk about this extraordinary slice of not only rock history, but also of ending apartheid in south africa. Its incredible. His music was the sound track to the Antiapartheid Movement in south africa. You went in everyones house. His records were as popular as a simon and garfunkle. Its mind boggling the music that he wrote. I wasnt there in 1998. Watching that footage again for the 50th time, it makes me want to start crying, because you see peoples faces. Youre right, its like elvis coming back from the dead or the beatles. It gives me goose bumps. He was a remarkable person. His essence in spirit was unlike anybody else. He changed my life and shaped me into a better person and all of us at light in the attic and everyone he met. His music is definitely going to carry on. He had such a strong spirit. Just undeniable. Sandra, ive got to say, yes, him going back to south africa and having this triumphant concert tour and renewed success, that was moving, but it wasnt as moving as what he did after. He went back to detroit, he lived in the same home. The money he gave to friends and Family Members. He continued living an extraordinary humble life, almost a monklike life and would just sit in that house. Theres that incredible scene with just him, an acoustic guitar, this really humble home hes living in, the snow quietly falling outside. It was almost like a religious experience. Its extraordinary. He stayed true to himself through it all, didnt he . That is correct. He said hes not giving his money away. He said hes investing in people. He wanted Economic Freedom for people. He was very much a part of the civil rights movement, of the united Migrant Workers plight, poverty. I wont glamorize poverty. One of his shortcomings and weaknesses was that he wouldnt ask for help. He would find a way. Ive just figured that out now. Grief is a holy time. I held his hand. Im his medical spiritual person in his life. He would say keep me alive when he was getting weak. So we did everything. I was with him when he breathed his last breath. It was very, very peaceful and very textbook, the way a person takes up spirit. Now hes eternal and hes gone to the hereafter and hes spirit, so hes totally free. Yeah. Sandra Rodriguez Kennedy and matt sullivan, thank you both so much for sharing part of this incredible legacy now with us. In honor of rodriguezs legacy, his family will be putting on a concert this saturday in detroit at the masonic temple from noon to 11 00 p. M. The event will be free to the public. We are three minutes into the fourth hour of morning joe. Former senator Claire Mccaskill back with us and sam stein is with us. We begin this hour with yesterdays fatal fbi shooting of a utah man accused of making online threats against President Biden and others days before the president visited the state. The bureau had been aware of the suspect for several months, tipped off by a social Media Company concerned by his posts. Nbc news senior White House Correspondent Kelly Odonnell has the latest. Reporter new this morning, this video of the deadly encounter outside a utah mans home wednesday. The fbi was there to arrest him for alleged threats to assassinate President Biden. The suspect was shot and killed by agents just hours before the president was due to land in utah. The fbi says it had been tracking months of vulgar and violent threats against the president and other prominent democrats made by craig d. Robertson, believed to be in his 70s. Wednesday morning the fbi shot and killed robertson while serving a warrant at his home. The swat team went through his back door with a battering ram. He was like im not coming out, [ bleep ]. Reporter here is a look inside the weapons stockpiled, displayed on his social media. The timing became urgent wednesday when the suspect made fresh threats tied to the biden scheduled visit. The fbi says robertson knew about the trip. I hear biden is coming to utah and referred to cleaning the dust off the sniper rifle. Investigators told the court his photos and comments showed robertson had the gear and was prepared to use sniper tactics. In the arrest warrant, robertsons own post had described him as a maga trumper. The fbi also noted he had been wearing a trump had when he was under surveillance. Pages of detailed and graphic Death Threats targeted many of the same public figures mr. Trump often talks about. Officials responsible for prosecuting the former president , including manhattan d. A. Alvin bragg. The criminal is the district attorney. Reporter more than angry words, the official papers charging robertson with crimes say he had, quote, intent to kill at a minimum d. A. Bragg and president joe biden. Robertson threatened federal agents too. President biden later arrived in utah and was briefed on the deadly incident and the threats. Now to the new developments in one of the federal indictments against donald trump. Yesterday we told you about a previously unseen memo that outlines the plot to overturn the 2020 Election Results by donald trump and members of his inner circle. The memo which was obtained by the New York Times was allegedly sent in early December 2020 by trump lawyer kenneth cheeseboro, who is one of the coconspiracies described in the latest indictment of the former president. In the note, he details the socalled fake electors scheme, which falsely claimed former Vice President mike pence had the power to block the certification of the states votes on january 6th, all just to buy time. Cheeseboro admitted that the Supreme Court would likely reject the plan. In a statement to nbc news, cheeseboros lawyers write that he was simply providing legal advice to trumps campaign, but that whether the campaign relied on that advice as he intended will have to remain a question to be resolved in court. Those efforts by drip and his lawyers to subvert democracy has in no small part led the American Bar Association to create a task force for american democracy. It will focus on three things. Depoliticizing how elections are administered, educating the public on the principles of our democracy, and advancing improvements in election systems in order to root out distrust sowed by certain political leaders. Joining us now the cochairs of this newly formed task force, former secretary of Homeland Security under president Obama Jeh Johnson and retired judge jay michael ludwig, who served on the court of appeals for the fourth circuit. Thank you for your strong, uncompromising voice on protecting and defending the constitution of the United States. I heard of friend of mine going i like the new judge ludwig. My response was, no, its the same judge whos always respected and defended the constitution of the United States. Talk about this task force and also the threat from our party, my former party, i would guess your former party. Talk about the threat to democracy thats before us now because of the undermining of the rule of law. Mika and joe, thank you so much for inviting secretary johnson and me to join you this morning to introduce the country to the American Bar Associations new task force. American democracy is in crisis today. It is the most important issue facing the nation between now and 2025 and beyond. The continuing false claims to this day that the 2020 president ial election was stolen from the former president and the republicans, those claims have laid waste to americans confidence in their elections and also to their faith in american democracy. Aba president mary smith in announcing this Blue Ribbon Task force of the nations 1. 5 million lawyers said that we lawyers must run to the storm. All americans must run to the storm, joe, that is the crisis of american democracy today. Jeh johnson, how does the Task Force Plan to do that, to run to the storm . What actions and what policies will you be pushing to try and reach the goal of the three points laid out as we introduced this task force, including educating the public . So, first, thank you for having us on. Im honored to serve as a cochair with judge luttig, whos one of the heros of january 6th, in my opinion, serving with him on this task force to strengthen our democracy. That would be the capstone of my Public Services career. Everything is on the table, in my opinion, from not only looking at how we educate young people american civics, but also how our cyber security, social media, conventional media contribute to or distract from our democracy to the very manner in which we elect candidates for federal office in our country. Weve put together a really extraordinary distinguished nonpartisan Bipartisan Group of americans to look at this with us. Retired former judges like judge luttig including judges from the ohio Supreme Court and carly fiorina, the head of the naacp Legal Defense fund. Were going to take the next year to go on basically a listening tour around the country. Were going to do our own research, develop some recommendations that we will develop a year from now that i hope and believe will be implementable and gain support of the American People. Lawyers dont have a corner and a monopoly on wisdom. We have a number of basic patriotic americans that will help us out. Im hopeful that in this process there will be some effort to look at the lawyers who have violated their oaths to the law and to the constitution by embracing the big lie and the fraud. I know there have been some lawyers who have had disciplinary hearings, a few that have been disbarred in a few jurisdictions. But do you all plan on looking at how well are lawyers policing themselves as it relates to supporting our democracy . This seems like an empty exercise to me if we cant keep our own house clean as lawyers. The lawyers of the nation are uniquely qualified and position positioned to protect and preserve american democracy and the rule of law. This Task Force First and foremost will be looking into the issues surrounding our constitution and the rule of law that have come out of the attack and assault on american democracy and our institutions of democracy and law over the past two or three years. The task force is not likely to speak directly to the counsel that was provided to the former president in the leadup to january 6th. But certainly at a 40,000 foot level, the task force will address the profound obligations of lawyers under the constitution and the rule of law. I have a question for secretary johnson. Im not a lawyer. I am married to one. I would never say that lawyers are not important because of that. However, in this case, you know, our government was built on a system of checks and balances. One of the things that i think people who are concerned about democracy and its future point to as a failure was the in ability of our political system to hold those checks and balances or barely hold them together. For that i look at the second impeachment and the idea that, well, hes out of office soon, we can let the courts decide this. In fact, it was a political issue, the second impeachment and it was kind of punted down the road. My question to you is, on this task force how directly will you work with Elected Officials to sort of persuade them as the judge did in the leadup to january 6th of the critical nature of democracy and its fragility too . Thats a good question. We do expect to engage, first of all state secretaries of state who are responsible for running elections in their respective jurisdictions. One of the missions in this task force, in my view, needs to be looking at what incentivizes political actors to engage in extremist rhetoric, extremist behavior, what incentivizing them when you have Something Like 400 safe seats in the house of representatives to basically cater to their extremes and respected constituencies. When it comes to the issue of lawyers, this is what happens when a president systemically drives out of his administration anybody who has systemically kept the guardrails. You cannot give your client simply legal advice they want to hear. You have to give them the best and most sustainable legal opinion about what the law calls for, authorizes and prohibits. Former secretary of Homeland Security jeh johnson and retired federal judge jay michael luttig, thank you both for being on the show. Thank you for your service to this country. We turn now to the devastation in hawaii with thousands of residents fleeing their homes on the island of mow maui as wildfires destroy an Historic Town. Miguel almaguer, what is the latest . Reporter the death toll has risen to a staggering and sobering 36. That number can continue to rise. Meantime, behind me evacuees slept overnight in this gym. Theres upwards of 4,000 people who evacuated this area, all as three major wildfires continue to burn at this hour and theyre moving in multiple directions. Oh my god. Reporter driving past burning homes and walls of fire, for some, this is what the harrowing escape from maui looked like. The Historic Town of lahaina in ruins swallowed by named and ungulfed in smoke. The apocalyptic scene unfolding in west maui on wednesday, flames spreading onto boats and pouring into the ocean while the desperate plunged into the pacific to escape the inferno. I was the last one off the dock when the firestorm came through the banyan tree and took everything with it. Reporter as the coast guard plucked people out of the water, more people overwhelmed hospitals with serious burns. As 80 mile per hour wind fans the flames, Ground Support was suspended for hours. 911 and cell phone coverage was also down, creating chaos amid the panic. When you see some auntie on the ground probably dead and you cant get in connect with your family, you just think the worst. Reporter with at least three major fires still burning on the island, resources are thin and the true extent of the damage is unknown. These dramatic before and after photos capturing a glimpse of the changed landscape. Local people have lost everything. Theyve lost their house, theyve lost their animals. Its devastating. Reporter this morning, a tropical paradise turned into a hellish landscape. The biggest concern, of course, is that death toll and the possibility that it will continue to rise. Again, it stands at a staggering 36. Meantime, officials are trying to get many of the folks in this shelter behind me to other islands where theres additional services. All of the Local Governments here say they are overwhelmed and overrun with evacuees. Miguel almaguer live in maui, thank you very much for that report. Coming up, more luxury trips, vip passes to sporting events and dozens of private jet flights. We are digging into new reporting on the billionaires who have helped Supreme Court Justice Clarence thomas live a lavish life. Morning joe will be right back. Lavish life. Morning joe will be right back mr. Sennas into nature. Professor kots into science. 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According to the report, since 1991, several billionaires and executives who share thomass views have gifted him with at least 38 vacations, 26 private jet flights and a dozen vip passes to sporting events. Many of these gifts were never disclosed by thomas, which propublica quotes ethics experts as saying may be a violation of the law, especially when it comes to the yacht cruises and sports tickets. One of the biggest gifters is texas real estate billionaire harlan crow. Among several paid vacations, crow also bought a house from thomass mother and paid his grand nephews tuition. Thomas said the trips were personal hospitality from a close friend. The New York Times also compiled a list of wealthy businessmen who thomas appears to have met after he became a Supreme Court justice. They include a former Top Executive at Berkshire Hathaway and an oil baron. According to propublica, with the exception of crow, their names have never been listed in thomass financial disclosures. Back in april, the high court sent the Senate Judiciary committee a copy of their ethics practices, which was signed by all nine justices. It explains that the justices follow rules prohibiting them from accepting gifts so frequently that, quote, a reasonable person would believe that the Public Office is being used for private gain. But as propublica notes, what is defined as a gift is ambiguous. Nbc news has reached out to Justice Thomas for comment, but so far has not heard back. Claire mccaskill, i dont even know where to begin with this. Maybe you could do a little better than me, having worked in the legal profession. Yeah. First, Everybody Needs to understand that this would be a gross violation of the rules for anyone in the Public Sector with the exception of the United States Supreme Court. Federal judges, Elected Officials, all of these trips not being disclosed would be a serious problem. So they have a crisis here. The Roberts Court is going to have to make a decision. Either the legacy of the Roberts Court is going to be that they looked the other way from serious ethical transgressions. This idea that they dont have any accountability to congress, Congress Funds them, congress has to confirm them. That is in the constitution. So the idea that somehow once they get the job, they never have to Pay Attention to congress again or follow any rules other than ones they make for themselves is just wrong. What Clarence Thomas doesnt get here is that he is absolutely permanently damaging the institution he purports to care about, because he has looked past a very important tenet. If youre in Public Office and particularly if youre a judge, the appearance of impropriety he can say all he wants to about, oh, these are my friends and i didnt do anything because of these trips or these tickets to sky boxes at big sporting events. And who knows . Maybe he did, maybe he didnt, but the appearance of impropriety is so Crystal Clear here. That is what a reasonable person sees. Even under the rules he sent to the senate, he has violated those rules consistently and constantly during his time on the bench. If nothing is done about it, its going to further erode the legitimacy of this court. I dont know how you cant be compromised when youre being given lavish gifts. Im going to put that in quotes, because it feels like its in exchange for something. Personal hospitality might be dinner, banana bread, not tuition, jet flights, vacations, yacht cruises costing Hundreds Of Thousands of dollars. How is this man not compromised in his ability to make an objective decision . Are we all joking ourselves here . This is not just a joke. Its an assault on our system and on the Supreme Court and what it is supposed to b and the credibility in it. I mean, these are valuing millions of dollars ultimately. This is over decades. How is this man not completely compromised . First of all, i can be bought off with a good banana bread, so dont underestimate that. Secondly, i want to credit propublica for incredible journalism here. Just putting my editors hat on for a second, i dont think this is the final iteration of the story. What i would think is the next chapter, just me speculating here, 38 paidfor vacations by four individual mega donors, to me, that sounds like someone is coordinating a vacation system for Clarence Thomas. When you and i plan family vacations, you dont just randomly call donors, hey, ive got the slot open, can you pay for my trip out west on your jet . Someone clearly, or at least i would think, is organizing these types of outings and maybe even matching a donor with the event. That, to me, is where the issue goes next. Who is doing the organization around this . And are they the ones who actually have a stake before the justice . Propublica noted that none of these three businessmen, putting aside harlan crow, had overt cases before the court at the time they were sponsoring these vacations, which on the surface suggests, okay, maybe theres nothing wrong here because they didnt have intersecting business. My question as an editor would be, who is helping organize these events . Looking into all of that, claire, just curious, putting ginni thomas aside for a second, theres that whole part of the story there and her Text Messages to mark meadows and her friend, husband, whatever. Lets leave that aside for a second. Just this information in itself, if you dig deeper as sam has suggested and it is found that there is no question that his decisionmaking is compromised, what else . Should he step down . What would you suggest . Well, certainly i would be all in favor of him stepping down. I do think the senate at this point has a real obligation to try to get more information from these billionaires. Sams right. Is Clarence Thomas sitting in his Office One Day and he gets a call from tony novelli, hey, i was thinking about you today, why dont i hook you up with a really fancy vacation for you and ginni . How does this happen . Is the Federalist Society anywhere in this . Is leo, our friend that was painted in the picture with thomas which hangs in harlan crows vacation home, this wide network of lawyers going back into law school know if they want to be a federal judge when the republicans are in charge they need to belong to the Federalist Society. The same man who gave the list to trump of who he could appoint to the Supreme Court, are they involved in this . It would not surprise me if leo was the matchmaker. Were going to get clarence another 100,000 vacation, who are we going to call to do it . Theres a lot more digging that needs to be done. It either needs to be done by journalists, like at propublica, or on the United States Senate Judiciary committee. These are really important questions. Who else is involved and connected . To capitol hill now, where farright republicans in the house have been for months pushing for a formal impeachment of President Biden. As nbc News Senior National political reporter sahil kapur reports, launching an impeachment for a political win could cost them the majority. What are you hearing . Reporter Speaker Mccarthy has opened the door into this impeachment inquiry into President Biden. Hes got a thin house majority. He can only lose four votes before this effort collapses. Hes dealing with a group of 18 House Republican members who sit in districts that President Biden won. We talked to a lot of those 18 for this story, and the Common Thread is theyre very uneasy about going down this path. Some of them are conflicted about whether to even launch an inquiry into impeachment, but they roundly agree they have not seen evidence of high crimes and misdemeanors to move forward with impeachment proceedings against President Biden. Theres congressman don bacon who represented a swing district in omaha, nebraska. Quote, its too early for a formal impeachment inquiry. He says we should have more confidence that actual high crimes and misdemeanors occurred before starting a formal impeachment inquiry. Brian fitzpatrick says hes worried theyre turning an impeachment inquiry into a vote of no confidence in the british parliament. David joyce in ohio sees himself as a pragmatist and a voice of reason. He says you hear a lot of rumor, but thats not fact to me as a former prosecutor. I think there has to be facts and due process, and i have not seen any of that today. Democrats for their part say that republicans are essentially trying to impeach hunter biden. Theyre trying to make insinuations that President Biden was involved in his sons foreign business dealings, but they havent proven any link that goes back to 1600 pennsylvania avenue. Jerry nadler says, quote, through all the slander about President Biden, theres no evidence whatsoever that hes involved in any of this. He says nadler told me its not an Impeachable Offense to have a troubled son. He says republicans are only doing this to distract from the very serious criminal indictments facing donald trump. The white house was even more blunt. They said Kevin Mccarthy is pandering to the far right with, quote, a baseless, evidencefree impeachment stunt. Some republicans are mindful of the calendar. Just about four months after Congress Comes back from the august recess, it will be an Election Year. Some republicans believe if they are to do impeachment, they need to get it done this year lest it bleed into an Election Year. Republicans made that exact accusation about democrats when the first impeachment of President Trump bled into the Election Year of 2020. Sahil kapur thank you so much. Now to some Breaking News on the economy. The Consumer Price index rose 3. 2 from a year ago in july, slightly below what was forecast. Lets bring in the coanchor of squawk box andrew ross sorkin. What does it mean . It means that inflation is coming down. Thats a good thing. Youre seeing markets rally on the back of that news. It doesnt mean the fed is finished when it comes to raising Interest Rates. Were still in the threes. The Federal Reserve has said over and over again they want to get to two. Its going to be hard to get to two. Theres a real question mark going on even within the fed and the economic ecosphere about whether a 2 goal is the right goal. Thats really the next debate. Theres even a debate about what the fed is doing and has that been the thing thats helped bring inflation down, or is it really just supply . Weve finally gotten through all these supply chain issues that came up during the pandemic. Weve sort of worked our way through those. How much of the fact that inflation has come down is a function of the pressure that jay powell and the Federal Reserve have been putting on the me, or have all of these other factors changed that dynamic . Lots of questions, not a lot of answers. While we have you, also you have news on a shakeup at disney. Shakeup at disney. Prices are going up at disney. If you have disney plus or hulu, the price is going to go up. By the way, if you have espn plus, same story. Disney has been and youre looking at an image of bob iger, the ceo who came back to the ship to try to right the ship has had a big challenge in sterm terms of slowdowns in the streaming world. Hes trying to figure out what is the right path. One of the things we saw in the past 48 hours is a deal that espn made for the first time in the gambling world in terms of betting with penn gaming, a deal 2 billion. There were questions for years about would disney get into the betting and gambling business and maybe they wouldnt because theyre a familyoriented brand. Theyve now chosen to do that. Later on in 2024 disney expected to buyout the remaining stake of hulu owned by our parent company, comcast. Bob iger trying to find ways to raise some money and figure out what does the future at disney even look like . Do they own Something Like abc in the future . A lot of these linear channels have stopped growing. Hes now talking openly about potentially selling or spinning those channels off. Andrew ross sorkin, thank you very much. Up next on morning joe, well have a look at some of the stories making front page headlines across the country. Morning joe will be right back. 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We begin in georgia where the Atlanta Journal constitution reports expulsions from the states Medicaid Program are dropping children. This as the federal Covid Health Emergency expanding the eligibility requirements expired. According to state data, over 67,000 children no longer qualify for insurance. Of that, 63,000 were dropped simply because their parents did not fill out the necessary paperwork. In florida, the Tampa Bay Times has a front page feature on a rise in covid hospitalizations across the country. The cdc says admissions went up 43 in the last week of july. Its believed the recent extreme heat is fuelling the uptick as people are forced to gather inside. In new jersey, the star ledger reports new Jersey Transit rail union is threatening a strike due to stagnant contract negotiations difference 2019. The union will authorize the strike by august 31th. Finally, the Dallas Morning News reports texas lawmakers are asking the Us Postal Service to give its mail carriers bottled water. Workers say that practice ended last month despite the extreme temperatures sweeping the state. Now officials are asking the agency to allow their workers to take necessary breaks and have free access to cold water. Happening right now in ft. Pierce, florida, both of Donald Trumps codefendants in the maralago documents case walt nauta and carlos de oliveira just arrived for their arraignment. Nauta will be arraigned on the new counts added against him in the last months superseding indictment. Again, this is the classified documents case thats taking place in ft. Pierce, florida, at the courthouse there. Well be following this. Well be right back with much more morning joe. Well be right back with much more morning joe. So you only pay for what you need. Thats my boy. Stay off the freeways only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. 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Now available in cinnabon® bakeryinspired flavor. Learn more at boost. Com tv im saving with liberty mutual, mom. They customize your Car Insurance so you only pay for what you need. You could save 700 dollars just by switching. Ooooh, let me put a reminder on my phone. On the top of the pile oh. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Passengers for flight ka 29 please make their way to gate b15. Good morning, everyone. This is captain robin allen speaking. Flight time today is 6 hours, 54 minutes. Has commenced. Phones, tablets. Plane is under control. You need to see this. The plane veered off course. Someone is calling for help. Got family . Loved ones . Weve got one job to do right now. Ive got a message. That was part of the trailer for the apple tv plus series hijack. It stars idris elba who plays a savvy corporate negotiator on a sevenhour flight from dubai to london that is taken over by armed passengers. The story unfolds in realtime with seven onehour episodes. And joining us now are the shows executive producers, Jamie Laurenson and hakan kuseda. If anyone is watching this and doesnt want a spoiler alert were going to have one a little bit here. Jamie, ill start with you. I guess give us a sense of what plays out here and a little bit about idris elbas character and how its so key to what ultimately happens. Yeah, well, idris plays sam nelson, who as you say is a corporate negotiator, and i guess his real skill is in reading people and reading a room. Thats been his kind of professional makeup until this point where he finds himself in the most unfortunate situation you can, on a hijacked plane. And really the story is about how he manipulates and works his way onto the side of the hijackers and starts to unpick their thinking from within, and its so its both a high octane thriller as well as a kind of an intelligent look at a crisis situation i guess. Hakan, same question for you, what drew you to this project . Well, it was an idea that was sort of pitched to us just on a sort of sheet of paper actually. It was just the concept, this came up with by george kay and jim smithfield, writer and director of the show. George cites this inspiration from being stuck in a tunnel for a few minutes on the euro star and having his imagination sort of run wild with him about maybe something terrible was about to happen. Of course nothing happened, it was totally fine, but it was the trigger of inspiration for him to come up with this idea of, you know how would you cope with a crisis situation with a bunch of strangers and what would play out. It was something, you know, whilst its sort of a sort of fanciful concept, its something really relatable and we could sort of see straight away there was a great sort of way to tell a thrilling story. So let me just tell both of you, im fans. I know that you all did slow horses also on apple plus. Oh, wow so first and most importantly, is there going to be a season two of slow horses . Yes, we are in the works on that at the moment. We work with cecil films on that show, and were in post on that at the moment, so that should be coming on apple plus later in the year. Its terrific. Now, idris elba who for many of us who are big wire fans is forever and will forever be known as stringer. He is a phenomenal actor, it people havent seen him in the wire or havent seen him in luther, he is really something else. Im curious if there were others in the running, or did you set your sights on idris from the very beginning . It was also idris. It was him from the start. Very early on in the process it was identified that this would be a great opportunity to work with him and it was effectively written with him in mind. Yeah. You cant imagine anyone else as sam nelson. He brings amazing sort of magnetic intelligence to the role which is unbeatable. The first the first season of hijack is streaming now on apple tv plus, executive producers Jamie Laurenson and hakan caussetta, i agree with claire, slow horses amazing. That does it for us this morning, ana cabrera picks up the coverage after a quick final break. From prom dresses. To workouts. And new adventures. You hope the more you give the less theyll miss. But even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past. They may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. Although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. Now as youre thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need, make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination. Featuring fresh Artisan Bread piled high with tender roast beef, smothered with melty provolone cheese, just enough Chipotle Mayo and served with hot au jus for dipping. Try the roast beef or pastrami french dips today. Only at togos. Featuring fresh Artisan Bread piled high with tender roast beef, smothered with melty provolone cheese, just enough Chipotle Mayo and served with hot au jus for dipping. Try the roast beef or pastrami french dips today. Only at togos. Right now on ana cabrera reports, were tracking several major Breaking News stories as we come on the air, including horror in hawaii. The death toll from devastating wildfires on maui climbing to 36, a stunning loss that authorities expect will still grow as search and rescue efforts continue this morning. Aerial video of a once picturesque town showing complete destruction. History dating back to the 1700s wiped off the map. Also breaking this morning, Donald Trumps two codefendants in the classified documents case appearing in court this hour in florida. Our cameras caught one of them arriving just a few minutes ago. This a