Transcripts For MSNBC Morning Joe

♪ you're going to be so strong and healthy when it's it's your turn just take it ♪ ♪ don't be too late, baby ♪ ♪ don't hesitate ♪ >> all right. . >> that's fantastic. . >> the great carol king with her own vaccine song inspired, she says, by dolly parton. >> tomorrow, we of course are going to be doing our own, willie and i are. go ahead, put up the tweet. that you could put up the tweet that would be great. thank you, dolly parton, for you for inspiring me to inspire me to record my own vaccination song. covid vaccine. vaccines save lives. a duwop version of the happiest girl in the whole usa. we change the words around a little bit. we think we could get 50 million new vaccines by tomorrow evening just on the strength of our song. speaking of big numbers, willie, it looks like oprah's interview with -- >> whoa! . >> -- meghan and henry -- what's his name? >> come on! >> harry. sorry. looks like they outrated your interview with oprah from the spring of '04. >> back in the "morning joe" days. 17 million people watched. that's just sitting down that night watching. many more watched it online, probably watched it yesterday after they heard everything about it. that's an incredible number in this day in age of fractured media. oprah still gets it done with a little help from harry and meghan. . >> and some big news. to say they were asking questions about what the child would look like, my god. >> providing no names. . >> no names except it was charles. okay. no names we're going to tell you about, but it was charles. >> it wasn't grandma. no it wasn't grandma. was it granddad. no, it wasn't granddad. it was a member of the family who doesn't have a lot of hair. well, come on. they have totally exposed the next king of england. if you are going to have that explosive of a charge. for some reason, this offended people yesterday when i said it. i said you need to give us a name. if you're going to accuse an institution that's been around over 1,000 years of that type of racism and the whole world is up in arms about it, you have to provide a name, unfortunately, willie. and i think, again, the -- right now the presumption is that it's charles. so he's doing a grave disservice to his father if it's not charles. >> yeah. that happened yesterday morning, actually. that comment got such traction and offended so many people. oprah came out yesterday and said harry reached out to me and said it's not my grandmother and it's not my grandfather. so he is leaving the bread crumbs on the trail. it is a small group of people it could be. that is the next king of england who is alleged to have asked those questions if that is true. . >> right. well, we'll leave it right there. . >> no more hints. but it rhymes, oprah, with marles. >> what? . >> they have to give us a name. . >> i'm not saying this is definitive about the claim, but the way harry talked about his dad in the interview, how he doesn't return my calls, how we are working on our relationship, that the bond isn't terribly close right now between father and son. >> well, and also, it's kind of like at the dinner table pre-covid and i say something and mika looks at me and says, you what? he had passed along to oprah what he told her. >> yeah, yeah. >> what the color of the baby was going to be. he was like, oh, no, i'm not going to talk about that. . >> okay. very awkward. let's get to the news this morning. the cdc released new guidelines yesterday for those who are fully vaccinated offering hope that life could soon return to normal. >> we've been through a lot this past year. with more and more people getting vaccinated each day, we are starting to turn a corner. fully vaccinated people can visit with other fully vaccinated people indoors without wearing a mask or physical distancing. visit with unvaccinated people have a single household who are at low risk of severe covid-19 disease indoors without wearing masks or physical distancing. and refrain from quarantine and testing following a known covid-19 exposure to the vaccinated person remains asymptomatic. >> the cdc recommends that fully vaccinated people wear well-fitted masks, avoid large gatherings, and physically distance themselves from others when out in public. and it does not mean people can move freely around the country. the cdc said people should follow their local health department's travel recommendations. dr. lena wen said the cdc is missing a major opportunity to tie vaccination status with reopening guidance by coming out with such limited guidance, they are missing the window to influence state and national policy. willie? . >> let's did ig into this with dr. vin gupta. it's great to see you. i don't think families have ever been so emotional about a powerpoint slide as they were when they saw this one from the cdc yesterday that showed the two green grandparents theoretically and a child and grandchild. if you are vaccinated, you don't have to be masked. after a year apart you can hug your children and grandchildren in most cases unless they are high risk. as you heard the guidelines, dr. gupta, what do they mean approximate what do they not mean? >> good morning, willie. good to see you. what they mean is vaccination will keep you out of intensive care. i think we actually have a slide showing what that means, what the purpose of vaccination means. a set of ct scans if your team has it on deck here. and you're showing it right now. this is the point of vaccination, willie. if you're, saying, a grandma or granddad, you want to see your children and they're nearby, you can go. because you know what, those vaccines will keep you from developing lungs that are seen on the right. that's key. let me put a word in here. that applies to the johnson & johnson vaccine. i keep hearing isinferior. we need to balance the head and the heart here. we need to get grandparents to see their grandkids. we don't know yet with certainty whether they stop transmission of the virus. so it's weird. how can you be kept out of the intense i care but still be a carrier? i see where dr. wen is coming from. it is still the leading cause of death in this country week over week. we are still in the middle of a pandemic. 70,000 cases. we're predicting about 65,000 more. it could be over 130,000 if more governors follow the lead of governor abbott in texas. this is still a precarious situation, which is why you are seeing a phased set of guidance. there's going to be a version two before long where i'm sure it is going to be offered or recommended for individuals vaccinated once there's more vaccine. so there will be a version 2. it will continue to be readapted. let's be patient here. >> let's be clear about what the cdc said yesterday for people who have been vaccinated gathering with other people who have been vaccinated. you can get-together, including indoors without masks on. what are the limits on that for people who say, okay, great, i can go see my friends or travel to see my friends in florida because they have been vaccinated as well. what did that guidance mean to you? . >> if you want to congregate with other individuals that are close by another household indoors, one additional household indoors, you can do so, unmasked, not distanced. but when you leave that setting you need to still be very vigilant. mask, distance in public because of the transmission question. we don't know if vaccines will stop you from transmitting the virus. you to that with those that are nearby. you don't hop on a flight with friends who might be vaccinated hundreds of miles away from you. so that is the key piece. for everyone saying, well, that doesn't make sense. there will be a version two shortly to allow for more normalization, more travel. it's just not here yet. >> great to see you as always. joe, as i said, when that announcement was made yesterday, there were cheers going up from grandparents across america saying i can hug my children, speck hug my grandparents again. dr. tkpaoup tpa says as long as they're close by. they don't want you traveling to do that. >> some say the guidelines are going too far, others say they don't go far enough. if you're vaccinated and you haven't seen your family in some time, i think it's pretty certain people are going to be getting on planes and they're going to go see their family members. i understand what lena wen is saying. we need to do everything we can to encourage people to get vaccines. if you say you're going to be fine and you go visit your grandparents as long as they live next door to you, people are going, wait, what? i understand what dr. gupta is saying. i certainly hope, though, they do come out with a new set of guidelines sooner rather than later. all you are doing is saying, well, you can get the vaccine but you still can't go seen your parents that you haven't seen in a year. you still can't take your kids to go see their relatives. i think, mika, again, the guidelines, hopefully there's going to be another phase of guidelines coming from the cdc sooner rather than later. we are at a point now in this pandemic where people who have been more conservative with the vaccine does not seem to be a winning strategy in the longer term if we encourage people to get the vaccine to return to their normal lives, reopen businesses, get back to some sort of normalcy. >> hopefully as more people are vaccinated this is less of an issue. it is the long haul to get the entire country vaccinated. moving on to politics and the latest sign that former. did not win the 2020 election. >> what? >> he didn't, if you can believe it. the supreme court yesterday decided it will not take up the last of trump's election challenges. in a one-line ruling, which is its normal practice, the court denied his appeal of lower court rulings that upheld wisconsin's mail-in ballots. >> this is a 6-3 court. donald trump put three members on that court when amy coney barrett was selected there were a lot of concerns he was rushing her selection through so she could have an impact on the election. i don't know where people got that idea. well, wait a second. actually donald trump bragged about the fact that he wanted to get her on the court quickly so she could have a big impact on the election challenges. once again showing his complete and total ignorance how federal courts operate, how an independent judiciary operates, and how judges who get lifetime appointments don't really care what he tweets about them. . >> donald trump's understanding of the supreme court is if i put you on the court, you're there to defend me, help me. in this case with justice barrett who he said you're there to help me win this election. she said, no, that's not how this works. the people he put there in his mind have not helped him at all. and this last decision is the final slapdown of all of these contests and people asking what happened in 2020, was there a voting irregularity. mike pence still writing op-eds about that. >> oh, mike, mike, mike. . >> the courts have said more than 60 times that these are bogus claims. this last one from the supreme court should put an end to the conversation. unfortunately, as we all know, it won't. . >> yeah. mike pence. come on, mike. come on. seriously? >> trump has a hold on them all. >> i cannot say this enough. i think the real heroes the past four years, i think the people in our government that stood shoulder to shoulder and remained committed to institutional norms, remained committed to constitutional checks and balances, remained committed to guaranteeing that madisonian democracy survived another four years regardless of the chaos going on outside the walls of their building. not just members of the united states supreme court but federal judges across america. this cannot be said enough, federal judges across america, federal judges across the country by democratic judges. liberal justices and judges that were federalist society. this they remain the most resilient part and remain really the last best hope to protect our democracy. >> it seems a lot of people thought it would go where it's going from the very beginning, a money-making venture the late yesterday the former president sent out a statement urging donors to give money to his save america pac. rather than to republicans he dubbed rinos. the committee is moving part of its spring donor retreat to mar-a-lago club in palm beach. wow. the "post" notes the decision to move part of the event to mar-a-lago comes amid a spat over the rnc and other republican organizations use of trump's likeness and image in fund-raising as well as anxiety about how trump plans to use his influence in the 2022 midterms. he really wants to completely own the republican party. and he's bringing it right to mar-a-lago. anne applebaum and associate editor of the "washington post" and msnbc political analyst, eugene robinson joins us as well. good to have you both. >> anne, not a strong man move at all saying i am the party and the party is myself. >> and must come to me. >> it is the final great grift deciding he is going to pull money away from the republican party and finish them off once and for all. >> your right. his venture into politics was always about himself, his family, his business, even his psychological needs. i think those around him understood that perfectly well. and the great unsolved mystery the past four years is why so many of them still continue to go along with it. he could bring down anybody. he could undermine anyone. yet they ton to make space for him, continue to recognize him as the leader. and so many of them still don't want to break away. it is mysterious. >> they are trying to work with this guy. it just doesn't work. i have been saying it five years. other conservatives that grew up in the movement have been saying it five years. this is a former democrat who has become a republican because he thought they were the easiest target. he could be a racist with birtherism, gain a foot hold, and just use the republican party. and that's exactly what he's done. and he has brought more ruin to the republican party than any aclu lawyer or any ghost of ted kennedy or any -- a legion of nancy pelosis. he has caused more damage to this party than anybody could have ever done. he lost the house, he lost the senate, he lost the white house. now hesitate trying to gut their fund-raising operations, a well-known frifter his entire life. . >>s this the definition of insanity. as you said, they lost the house of representatives, the white house, the senate. they will probably be the rare out of power party that loses seats in the first midterm if they keep keep following him down this path. it is only to feed donald trump's coffers and egos. you see more senators are just kind of bailing. roy blunt now is not going to run again. some of these republicans who know better should stand up to the bully and should try to take their paerpt back. but apparently they won't. >> gene mentioned roy blunt retiring. still waiting to hear about chuck grassley and ron johnson. they are for the most part establishment republicans. the kind of guys you came into congress with in '9 4 maybe. >> right. >> so who fills those seats now? there is this trump movement of candidates like josh hawley. people who run in the races to fill those seats. what you have in donald trump, that release he put out yesterday just explicitly saying give me your money. here's the link. give me your money because he is going to take out rinos. what is a rino to donald trump, anyone who crossed him ever at any point. someone who perhaps voted for his impeachment, who didn't support him in his effort to overturn an election. that's who rinos are to him. republican voters, 74 million of whom voted for him. >> well, it has been lately. it has been the past four and a half years. they have defined conservatism by whether you support the biggest spending republican in the history of the party. we saw ben sasse. he talked about this personality cult. he said it is not conservative. yet donald trump is taking us one step further to that personality cult. when i hear lindsey graham talking about he's capable of magic. what magic, lindsey? the magic that caused democrats to lose house elections in 2018 by a historic margin? is it magic? is it magic for donald trump to get in the way and actually seed the two seats in georgia and the control of the united states senate to democrats? is that magic? or to be so out of it, so amped up, so freaked out in the first debate that he cost himself the white house. he cost himself real action. it's a man with strong man tactics. anne, all of your works have described how strong man get in power and how they start peeling off the more talented, the more gifted, the more independent players all around them. we're now starting to see the establishment of the republican party peeling away one by one by one. they just don't want to work. in donald trump's republican party anymore. it is now donald trump's republican party. >> yes. and that's actually quite dangerous. because if you look back into history, whenever you see the emergence of extremist movements and you have to characterize a part of the trumpist movement as extremist, whenever you see that the antidote is the idealogically closest, most moderate. you can see this in europe right now. the german center right, for example, has finally begun to understand how dangerous the german far right is and has seen. there is a german far right party that has strange links and financial connections to russia that uses disinformation that has been very involved in anti-coronavirus, anti-mask kind of movements. and finally the center right moved itself and started to focus on this party and is conducting investigations and is seeking to push back. and of course they are the party that's in the best position to push back. they're the party of, you know, traditional german values, centrist values. and really what we need in america is more centrist republicans, more real conservatives who can attract other conservatives and who can keep them away from this extremism and remind them we live in a democracy and institutions, congress and the white house, are, by definition, shared institutions that you will always have to share with people who don't agree with you. and so the loss of moderate republicans i think is very dangerous for the entire country. . >> and, anne, you talked about real conservatives. i'm curious what your thoughts are on the judiciary, the federal judiciary, members of the federalist society who time and time again have voted to uphold the constitution and strike down donald trump's baseless claims of widespread voter fraud. republican-what pointed federal judges, as well as of course democratic-appointed federal judges. the federal judiciary and what it has done the last four and a half years and continues to do. what's your thought on that, and how important has that been to keeping this constitutional republic, keeping some of the institutional safeguards in place? >> you're really right to point to that. the federal judiciary represents a problem for a lot of progressives and liberals and even centrists. there are people on the supreme court and other courts who have views about, you know, that we don't all agree with or not everybody in america agrees with. but the point is, as you say, when it comes down to it, these are so far we're very lucky so far, these are people who believe in the constitution, they believe in the rule of law. and rule of law means that the law decides what happens and not people in power. this isn't a country like china or like russia where we have ruled by law where whoever is in power gets to decide what the law is. the law exists separately from whoever is in congress. it is the job of the judiciary to seek to enforce that law. as long as we have people who believe in that, we have some protection against demagogues and against people who seek to undermine democracy. >> in all right. everyone stay in place. still ahead on "morning joe", the latest on when the house will vote on the senate's passed version of the covid relief bill. and what speaker nancy pelosi is saying about republicans who don't get on board with the bill. >> plus, white house press secretary jen psaki will be our guest. you're watching "morning joe". we'll be right back. >> there's something about trump. there's a dark side and there's some magic there. what i'm trying to do is just harness the magic. to me trump is sort of of a cross between jesse helms, ronald reagan and p.t. barnum. just this bigger than life deal. he could make the republican party something that nobody else i know could do. he could make pit bigger, stronger, he could make the more diverse. and he also could destroys it. ♪ magic, you can have anything that you desire ♪ ♪ magic ♪ ♪ and you know you're the right who can put out the fire ♪ who can put out the fire ♪ we made a promise to redefine everything a truck can be. ♪ and while we've made good on that promise by winning back to back to back motor trend truck of the year awards, the work is never done. ♪ this is wealth. the work is never done. ♪ ♪ this is worth. that takes wealth. but this is worth. and that - that's actually worth more than you think. don't open that. wealth is important, and we can help you build it. but it's what you do with it, that makes life worth living. principal. for all it's worth. a capsule a day visibly fades the dark spots away. new neutrogena® rapid tone repair 20 percent pure vitamin c. a serum so powerful dark spots don't stand a chance. see what i mean? 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>> well, you know, it's not happening. maybe there will be, as lindsey graham would say, maybe there will be magic and republicans will wake up. but i'm not seeing it. and so, you know, this covid relief bill, there was a morning consult poll that showed 77% of americans support this bill. 77%, including 59% of republicans. and when you go back to the republicans and you say, but this is from the democratic party, this is a democratic initiative, 53% of republicans still supported it. this is not rocket science. this should break through to at least one republican in the house or senate. but they are just paralyzed. and unable to vote for the most popular piece of legislation to come down the pike in a long, long time. i don't understand that politically. maybe joe could help me out. but i don't understand the potential political gain in that when you have those kinds of majorities in favor of the bill. >> i could see it if they stayed true to its small government past. they all lined up and all voted for a massive tax cut that blew as big a hole in the debt. in fact, went to .1% of americans and will not have the positive economic impact this bill is going to have, they can't hide behind deficits, inflationary fears. as i've said before, donald trump came into office, he had a $19 trillion debt. he left with a $27 trillion debt. he was the biggest spending president of all time, republican or democrat alike. and i guess the next question is, you've been studying center right parties across the world that have become more illiberal over the years. is there any evidence that there is a pathway back, or do those parties have to go eventually the way of the whigs and be replaced by another center right party? . >> i mean, there's always a pathway back. look, people -- it is irresponsible to be too pessimistic. there is a pathway back either in the moderates and the republican party pulling the extremists back towards the center. there's a pathway back in republican voters saying finally enough is enough. we're going to support people who at least talk about reality and aren't wrapped up in conspiracy theories. there's a pathway back actually in the country looking at reform of the internet, something i have just written about that's appearing today. and looking at how we end some of the partisanship, the polarization. we find ways to have people having similar conversations again. there is always a way back but there isn't necessarily a way back. >> excuse me, willie. what do we say, anne about a republican party focused on one bill after another that will make it harder for americans to vote? like we saw in georgia, it seems that they are starting to understand that they're going to be a minority party and they have to do whatever they can to stay in power even though the majority of americans want democrats running things. >> yes. that's the danger. that is the truly dangerous aspect of the possible future of the party. faced with the choice of trying to become a majority party, trying to appeal to all americans, or trying to win by, you know, through voter suppression and preventing from having access to the ballot. then you're right the stresses on american democracy are not going to disappear. they will increase. . >> so there are progressives, many in the united states senate who say, look, mr. president, republicans are never going to vote for this. it is a fact of life. press secretary jen psaki was asked about that yesterday. >> the president's preference is not to get rid of the filibuster. look what we have been able to accomplish in the last six weeks. he's on the verge of passing a historic relief bill that will create jobs. he wants to continue to work on a bipartisan basis. we believe there are opportunities to do exactly that. >> mr. president, can you pass voting rights with the filibuster in its current form, do you think? . >> i can't talk to you about that. >> this process we are living through right now is evidence that you should get rid of the filibuster. if you can't get republicans to work with you on a bill that gives money to their own constituents that helps them get out under the restrictions of covid and all the economic crisis that have flowed from it, they are never going to work with you. you might as well plow through and get rid of the filibuster. what do you make of that? is there enough support for that? . >> well, it doesn't seem that there is. joe manchin, kyrsten sinema, probably dianne feinstein, some other democrats in the senate are not willing to just get rid of the filibuster. so that seems to be -- taking that final step seems to be beyond the pale of possibility at this point. however, i think there more easily could be reform of the filibuster, change of the filibuster to make, for example, the minority that wants a filibuster the bill actually filibuster the bill. actually stand up there and talk for theoretically forever until the majority gives up. there are ways to flip the filibuster spread of requiring 60 senators be there to vote to end debate and vote on a bill require that 41 senators be there to vote to continue debate and put the onus on those filibustering rather than those being filibustered. that's an intermediate step, but i think you could get the majority to go. and you might, some of these ideas i heard from oren stein, who has followed the senate for a long time. but some of these ideas could change things by just raising the cost of filibustering a bill. right now it's just simple. we have 41 votes. we don't have to prove it. we don't have to talk. we just stop the bill. . >> the column in the "post" was positive. it's a good way forward. it's a good first step where you make people who want a filibuster, you make them stand up, do their mr. smith goes to washington routine and keep them talking until they can't talk anymore. this whole idea that the filibuster is sack row sapbgt and goes back to america's founding is just absolutely ridiculous. it's not. so they certainly can reform it if joe manchin doesn't want to do away with it. i have long had concerns about doing away with the filibuster. i don't want the senate to be a glorified version of the house with authoritarian rule. but at the same time they've got to make it a lot tougher to filibuster a bill, make them stay there. and make it much tougher for republicans to block one bill after another, especially this voting rights bill. and i'm wondering whether they can have an exception. republicans made an exception for supreme court justices, just like harry reid made exception for federal court judges generally before. i'm wondering why they couldn't make an exception for voting rights. does that not rise to the level? is that not worth an exception? is it not worth an exception to the filibuster that we want to guarantee that every american that wants to vote can vote? seems simple to me. >> coming up, the latest in the sexual harassment accusations to governor andrew cuomo. now there is talk of impeachment effort as well. we'll be right back. mpeachment effort as well we'll be right back. nicorette® knows, quitting smoking is freaking hard. you get advice like: try hypnosis... or... quit cold turkey are you kidding me?! instead, start small. with nicorette®. which can lead to something big. start stopping with nicorette® dry, distressed skin that struggles? new aveeno® restorative skin therapy. with our highest concentration of prebiotic oat intensely moisturizes over time to improve skin's resilience. aveeno® healthy. it's our nature™. bipolar depression. it's a dark, lonely place. this is art inspired by real stories of people living with bipolar depression. emptiness. a hopeless struggle. the lows of bipolar depression can disrupt your life and be hard to manage. latuda could make a real difference in your symptoms. latuda was proven to significantly reduce bipolar depression symptoms, and in clinical studies, had no substantial impact on weight. now i'm feeling connected. empowered. latuda is not for everyone. call your doctor about unusual mood changes, behaviors or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children, teens, and young adults. elderly dementia patients on latuda have an increased risk of death or stroke. call your doctor about fever, stiff muscles, and confusion, as these may be life-threatening, or uncontrollable muscle movements as these may be permanent. these are not all the serious side effects. this is where i want to be. talk to your doctor and ask if latuda could make the difference you've been looking for in your bipolar depression symptoms. it's gone to be worse by the day. fewer and fewer people believe the governor. that is a sad state of affairs for the state. we will overcome it and move forward. >> i don't see how he can govern effectively when fewer and fewer people believe him. . >> all right. new york city mayor bill de blasio weighed in on the harassment allegations against governor andrew cuomo. yesterday the new york state attorney general appointed two lawyers to lead the investigation. joon kim, former district attorney for the southern district of new york, and ann clark, employment discrimination lawyer to helm the probe. in a statement, kim said, quote, these are serious allegations . we will follow the facts wherever they lead. the people of new york deserve this and i am committed to seeing it through. good morning cuomo denied harassing women. a number of new york democrats are called on governor cuomo to resign. now republican lawmakers are pushing for his impeachment. but the gop can't force a vote on the issue without majority support. so it will ultimately be up to democrats whether a resolution moves forward. impeachment would reur a significant number of democratic votes. and removal would require 42 votes in the senate. . >> that's really not going to happen. andrew cuomo, there's hardly any chance of andrew cuomo ever going to resign. we're going to have the investigation and see how that plays out. it would be surprising unless there were more evidence. no evidence he will be moved out of the governor's mansion. you know, though, these scandals that have come up recently are actually taking all the oxygen out of i think the scandal that could have driven him out of office that actually could have had him libel criminally, and that has to do with the nursing homes and whether he was dishonest, whether his administration was dishonest with how they reported those nursing home deaths. >> it's interesting. so while these scandals for alleged sexual harassment are a headache for the governor, they are eclipsing a scandal that could pose even greater political risks to him. >> coming up, one of our next guests says new guidance from the cdc doesn't mean a coronavirus vaccination is a license to do whatever you want. dr. zeke emanuel joins the conversation ahead. 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'cause i do things a little differently. hey, i'll take one, please! wait, this isn't a hot-dog stand? no, can't you see the sign? wet. teddy. bears. get ya' wet teddy bears! one-hundred percent wet, guaranteed! or the next one is on me! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ comfort in the extreme. the lincoln family of luxury suvs. now we're working very strongly with china on the coronavirus that's a new thing that a lot of people are talking about. hopefully it won't be as bad as some people think it could be. but we are working very closely with them and with a lot of other people and with a lot of other countries. and we think we have it under control. >> by the way, that was six days after he thanked president xi for doing such a great job and said on behalf of the united states and its citizens he wanted to thank president xi for being transparent and being so helpful. that was six days before that speech in january. >> uh-huh. >> of last year. >> just pointing out in january of last year, joe biden wrote an op-ed in "usa today" really talking about the dangers of what was coming in the career to many come, a pandemic, and america wasn't prepared. . >> and he needed to listen to his doctors and his medical advisers and his scientists and be guided -- >> problem with that, trump had gone rid of the pandemic office, the response office. so he was completely unprepared and could give a damn about what was to come. now, a new book is shedding light on just how the ex-president mismanaged the early days of the pandemic, particularly on china. josh rogin writes, on the evening of thursday, february 6th, trump and china's pregnant xi jinping had a lengthy phone call. according to a senior administration official who was on the call, trump had come away from it with a decidedly warped view of the threat. in the conversation the official said xi told trump he opposed the decision to close u.s. borders to flights from china. trump asked xi to allow cdc officials into wuhan, which by that point had been locked down. xi demurred and asked trump not to take any more actions that would create further panic, in essence asking him to play down the threat. xi also told trump that china that the coronavirus outbreak under control, that the virus was not a threat to the outside world, and that the virus was sensitive to temperature and therefore would likely go away when the weather got warmer. none of these things was true. but trump believed them, or wanted to believe them, enough to start saying them out loud both internally and otherwise. >> the book is "chays on under heaven" covering foreign policy and national security josh rogin joins us. thank you so much for being with us. it is a fascinating relationship. donald trump and president xi. he invites him to mar-a-lago, schmoozes him, thinks he has it under control, brags about his chocolate cake, i'm not exactly sure why. would go from kowtowing him to criticizing him. in these early stages of the pandemic, it seems to me i had seen reporting that u.s. health officials had tried to get into china as early azodies. and chinese officials continued to stiff-arm him and tell them they couldn't go in, wouldn't provide samples, wouldn't do anything to help us prepare for this pandemic. >> that's exactly right. trump was getting a lot of conflicting information in the first weeks. rather than listen to his national security officials, he listened to his good friend xi jinping who gave him a lot of happy talk. you could see why he wanted to believe xi. he wanted his trade deal to succeed, the economy to stay good so he could get re-elected. so he went along with it despite the facts. that sowed the confusion into the system and hampered the response. he did the china travel ban. it was grossly in sufficient. he abandoned the friendship and abused the china issue and spread racism and fear and used it to attack the biden family, which didn't do anything to solve the pandemic either. it's just a brutal recounting of how we got into this mess. part of it is trump's fault and part of it is the chinese president's fault. >> congratulations on the book. >> thank you. . >> reading through it, the bottom line is donald trump got played by president xi and swallowed whole almost everything president xi was telling him. in one papblg he talked about using herbal medicines. don't worry this can be treated with herbal medicine. it will go away. and president trump privately repeating almost everything he was told by president xi. what were the implications on that on american policy as we tried to attack the virus when it came here. . >> it was devastating. can you imagine being one of the health officials who is warning the president he is getting bad information from china, that the chinese government is covering up what they know, they won't release the data. they won't allow the inspectors in. no, he's going to trust the chinese president over. but even worse than that, crucial weeks were wasted when we should have been doing a lot of things that could have made our response better and saved lives. plus, when he realized the chinese president was lying, he got mad and the pro phapbs was over and he tanked the u.s.-china relationship even more. it went through all sorts of issues twenty u.s. and china. think about it. the pandemic should have showed us our countries are intertwined. what it did is showed our two leaders are dysfunctional and therefore drove our countries apart. >> josh, i'm curious, a lot of the reporting has shown that one of those national security officials on top of this from the very beginning, former wall street journal reporter matthew pottinger. matthew warned from the very start before anybody else this was coming to the united states and this was going to be deadly >> yeah. matt was a reporter in hong kong in china for "the wall street journal". he covered sars in 2002 and 2003. his brother is an epidemiologist in washington. his wife is a vie rolgs. he spoke chinese. he was reading social media. and he was getting the intelligence briefs. he was trying to raise the alarm, him and robert o'brien. and others at different points. trump didn't want to hear it. it ran against what political advisers were telling him. you will tank the airlines, the deeconomy and your re-election. they were totally rot and pottinger was totally right. when his bungled handling of the pandemic became clear to the american people they decided they didn't want him to be president anymore. it shows you should follow the facts, the experts and actually we have to understand what we're dealing with in the u.s.-china relationship. a government that is not looking out for our best interest, not looking out for our security, for our public health. we will have to look out for it for ourselves. >> part of what you describe is effectively blackmail in march 2020 from the chinese government basically saying to president trump and the u.s. government, if you call us out publicly we will withhold ppe that we would ship to you. president trump and some members of the administration went along with that blackmail. >> yeah. they really had no choice. this was a message delivered both explicitly and in the trump-x iphone calls. basically what they said is if you want your masks and ppe, you better shut up about our handling of the virus, this being the chinese government. they didn't just do it to the united states. they did it to countries all over the world. they punished australia, the netherlands, you name it. this was a huge missed opportunity when you think about it for the chinese government. they were first to deal with the crisis. they were the first to get out of it. they had the most knowledge, the most masks. they could have shown the world they would use this power. but instead they used it to protect their preliminary interests which tells you all you need to know about what their priorities are. and for the people inside the u.s. government, not just the political people but national security people they looked and said, oh, my god, we are dependent on our factories in china which we don't really own and in an emergency we don't have any control of. this pushed a lot of supply chain policies that are meant to make sure this never happens again. you know, it's a shame that we have to sort of move to some sort of decoupling with china. that's not what we wanted. we figured out we had to do according to the experts. when push came to shove they held that medical aid of our heads and we were towing the couple line had we just can't do. >> congratulations on the book. >> thank you. >> it's somehow unsurprising to hear that trump was so heavily influenced by his authoritarian friends. and yet it's shocking at the same time. i'm wondering if you also looked at how chinese internet disinformation worked, whether there was also a chinese attempt to reach the broader american public at the same time. >> yeah. efforts are worldwide and growing all the time. you will find a bunch of them in my twitter feed. it is a mix of propaganda, influence operations, interference. and just like state media flaring out their party line. their line is that, you know, it didn't start in wuhan. maybe it started in frozen food factory in italy or fort detrick in the united states. whatever theory they can put forth to muddy the waters. for the chinese communist party, it's enough that we don't know what happened and to deflect the blame to everyone is confused. as you know so well, disinformation is very effective. you're not necessarily trying to win the argument. you're just trying not to lose the argument. once we have seen since 2016 is, first of all, the chinese government built a bot factory and they did it in a much more strategic long term way, buying up media, spreading their own state media in countries all over the world. this is part of a broad ideological and political contest that xi has been waging against our free and open society since he got into power. it is something that the pandemic unfortunately and tragically woke a lot of people up to, not just in america but all over the world. that's the grand contest we're in. that's what the book is about. it's not about a cold war or any bumper sticker like that. a rising china that insists on interfering with free and open societies, we have to take politics out and join together to defend the things we believe in and protect our security and prosperity and public health. >> "chaos under heaven." josh rogin, thank you so much. anne applebaum, thank you so much. always great to have you on the show. as for the current fight against the virus, the cdc released new guidelines yesterday for those who are fully vaccinated. . >> we've been through a lot this past year. and with more and more people getting vaccinated each day, we are starting to turn a corner. fully vaccinated people can visit with other fully vaccinated people indoors without wearing a mask or physical distancing. visit with unvaccinated people from a single household who are at low risk identify severe covid-19 disease, indoors without wearing masks or physical distancing and refrain from quarantine and testing following a known covid-19 exposure if the person remains unsymptomatic. we're hopeful our next set of guidance will have more science around what vaccinated people can do, perhaps travel being among them. >> dr. zeke emanuel served on the covid advisory board during the transition and was adviser for health policies. and vice provost for global initiatives at the university of pennsylvania. >> zeke, i'm going to get the vaccine. i want to get my band. i want to go in subways in new york. i want to get on airplanes, fly over the country. i want to go to concerts. why can't i if it's 95% effective? so many americans are asking. you're telling me if i get a vaccine, i have to still wear a mask then why am i getting a vaccine? and the answer is? >> the answer is, first of all, transmission and worry about transmission. we don't know if this cuts down on transmission if you happen to get the virus. the 5% is not zero percent for getting sick. and i think those are the main things. and we do need to have a larger community vaccinated. i would say i do think the idea that you can get-together with other vaccinated people indoors is good. the idea that you can get-together with grandparents and grandchildren i think is the one most people want to know about. but i think that should be tempered by keep it short. especially if it's nice weather. i would do that outside still. because everyone thinks they're low risk. they are probably low risk for getting sick. they may not be low risk for coming in contact with people who have the virus. the other thing i worry about is we have the variants that are very, very contagious out there that are spreading. that's part of the caution in the cdc recommendations. >> some right. so, zeke, obviously we're going to have to be living with covid for quite a while. i mean, at some point we're going to have to start balancing those risks and do as much as we can to return to normalcy. got to reopen the schools i say immediately. we've got to give americans a reason to believe the vaccine is worth it. as if the past year hasn't been difficult enough, i want to go out and suffer some more and watch the red sox play this summer. don't you think it's already if there's spacing to go to public events outside? >> i believe, joe, first of all, we have a few more months to get probably about 100 million people vaccinated. we're not -- i think the cdc and the government are appropriately, we're not asking people to hold on for another year or another eight months. this is a few more months to really get widespread vaccination. and i do think we can be prudent about that simultaneously with the b.1.1.7 variant is spreading. the next few months will be critical. i agree when we get more people vaccinated we will be opening up more of the economy. it will be summer and we'll be outside and that limits the spread. so i think those things are possible. we should a individual big crowds. we to the floor enough aldation of that to get into big crowds. so i think, again, a few more months of prudence is important for everyone. >> dr. emanuel, can you clarify for grandparents who were cheering at the announcement from the cdc yesterday what the new guidance means exactly. if your grandkids are a couple towns away, you can drive, over give them a hug. but if they are in arizona, florida or wherever, don't get on a plane and go see them. don't even go drive and see them. what is the guidance exactly? >> well, it was -- they did have this guidance that you can go see your -- basically your grandchildren if they're a low risk household. but they said don't fly around. that seems like a contradiction. i can't tell you my inbox has a lot of people saying can i fly two hours to new york to where my grandchildren are to hug them. so walensky said soon we will be whack with travel information. you get on a plane, you will wear an n-9 5 mask. you will not take it off to eat. you're going to be very careful in the airport where transmission can happen too. i think that's what people are going to do. we should be clear about it. we should give guidance about how to be careful both on the plane and in the airport because people are going to do that. the bigger worry are the spring break crowds in florida. they are outside, which is an advantage, but huge numbers on the beach is not an advantage and it will be very hard to social distance there. and i think that guidance from the cdc is absolutely right. those are groups of people that haven't been vaccinated. and we do have this very, very contagious variant that people have to focus on. >> big crowds already in florida and other places around the country. on schools, dr. emanuel, mayor de blasio in two weeks high schools will open in new york city, the nation's largest school district, obviously. where are you on schools right now? the story of new york and other places is the ones that have been opened since the fall or have sort of phased in have been incredibly healthy places. there has been incredibly low transmission rates. isn't that sort of a case study that school opening has been safe and it should be safe across the country? >> i absolutely agree with you, willie. i have been on this for months and months and months. you can open schools safely. the data are pretty overwhelming. we should put teachers at the top. they're essential workers. you can have kids wear masks. it's a controlled environment. you can space them out, open windows, keep the ventilation going. i have advised a number of schools to do this. and it's very very, very successful. and i do think, you know, there are some cases where we have had widespread events. you can shut down classrooms. you to the floor to shut down the whole school. if you follow the public health measures, keep windows open, teachers are vaccinated, it can she very safe. and i agree that's the direction we should go. i have been arguing it for months. more districts have to get there. in a understand when they say every kid has to be vaccinated before we go in the classroom, that is putting it off for many, many more months. i think we should strongly consider summer school. because kids have lost a lot of ground educationally, socially and otherwise. summer school would be beneficial at this moment, in-person summer school at this moment in time. >> all right. dr. zeke emanuel, as always, thank you very much. the author of the book, which country has the world's best health care. to politics now. and this from former president donald trump. late yesterday he sent out a statement encouraging donors to give money to his save america pac rather than giving to republicans he dubbed as rinos. that comes as the republican national committee is moving part of its spring donor retreat to former president trump's mar-a-lago club in palm beach. we have host of "way too early", kasie hunt. white house correspondent for pbs news hour, yamiche alcindor. and contributed writer at the atlantic, tom nichols. kasie, i want to start with you. i just -- in terms of giving money to trump's pac and holding this event at mar-a-lago, are all republicans on board with this? >> well, i think what trump showed us, he still remains about himself and not about the republican party. and i think for people who are invested in the party, they will see it will be past president trump and needs to, this is confirmation of what they frankly already knew. i don't think people are very surprised by this. now, of course moving things to mar-a-lago, that likely financially benefits president trump as well. the former president is saying don't give money to the rnc and others but, okay, the rnc says fine we will go to mar-a-lago and put money into your coffers. the "washington post" has done incredible reporting how much money goes into something like this. tom nichols, my question for you is how do republicans grapple with this in the long term? because between this piece and roy blunt, five of them who are leaving the senate, it just doesn't seem to me they are on any kind of path where this gets reconciled, at least not so long as donald trump is putting his own financial interests first. there is a way in which this works out for republicans as kind of shorthand. you have to remember the republican party doesn't believe in anything any more. to ask why are we republicans? why are we voting for these people? we believe in limited government, strong foreign policy? basically you can just say trump. are you with trump or against trump? that makes a quick dividing line. if trump drains off their money, it's all fun and games until somebody starts taking your donors away from you. there isn't going to be any reconciling of this. they want to stay in warrant. if using trump as a one word loyalty check that helps them to survive they don't want to usual lip see or live amongst then so be it. then that works. but where are the checks going? when you start messing with money, people start getting serious. >> yamiche, roy blunt is announcing his retirement. he joins johnson tbd old hand establishment republicans moving out of the united states senate and making way for, we will see. could be more trump-like characters, more mini trumps as they have been called in their rhetoric. what does this mean for the way joe biden goes about his business? we have this covid relief bill he will sign later this week. what he has learned is no matter how popular a piece of legislation he just doesn't have republicans who are willing to go along with it. >> that's right. i have been asking that very question. what are the big questions you learned from this bill they will carry on to other things like infrastructure, or wherever they go next and how they mesh issues. yes, we want to make sure we look bipartisan, that we bring republicans into the oval office. we don't want to be hung up on republicans when we have all of these democratic goals. you see president biden, the way he handled that last bill, which is he was meeting with republicans but he was also at the same time endorsing reconciliation. you are seeing a real move, yes, i want it here. i want to hear what the minority party has to say. but i don't want to be held hostage by a matter that did not win the senate, the house or the presidency. i think we will see a white house trying to really push forward with democratic goals. they have real things they want to see done including policing reform, including immigration. the big question is whether president biden follows what the democratic caucus is doing, moving to getting rules around the filibuster. when you hear senator joe manchin at least hinting at the idea that maybe for some things he would be okay with getting a rule around the filibuster. you have democratic whip jim clyburn saying we have to get around the filibuster for voting rights and civil rights, it makes me feel like the president is going to be feeling more and more pressure to come around to those ideas. >> you know, i said earlier if mitch mcconnell and the republicans can decide to make an exception for the filibuster for supreme court justice like harry read did for circuit court judges, district court judges, then certainly democrats can do the same thing when it comes to something as important as voting rights. this seems like an exception that joe manchin and senator sinema can agree with. let's talk about where this is and stem back to reverse engineering. let me put it this way. there's not a democratic senator right now of the 50, including joe manchin, that is going to be responsible for the undermining of voting rights for americans. there's not going to be a single democrat that allow republicans to do what they are doing in georgia, iowa and every state, which is to make voting even more difficult for black americans, for hispanics, right? we know that to be the case. let's reverse engineer this one right now and tell me, how is joe manchin, senator sinema, how are they going to get to figuring out a way to let voting rights be protected for americans who need protection the most with a carve out for the filibuster? . >> well, joe, i think you have already heard joe manchin start to give you some options for exactly that. there was a case argued recently before the supreme court where they said the quiet part out loud. they were asked, why do you want to do this. well, this is the difference between republicans winning an election by 50% to 49% and democrats winning 50% to 49%. it's all about minority votes. that's the whole entire point. everyone else has kind of avoided saying that out loud. you can hear how he is figuring out a way to go along with what the democratic majority wants to do with a what chuck schumer may be pressing him to do. they all know that exactly what you laid out, republicans have tipped their hand already in terms of how they're going to approach what democrats want to do. mitch mcconnell, again, felt it was successful to oppose barack obama in 2009 by essentially applying blanket obstruction and opposition to all the priorities attacking on the campaign trail. that seems to be the strategy they will try to employ this time around as well. we have debated whether that will be effective. but it seems to be the strategy. it puts manchin and sinema in this box. he looks to be saying, okay, let's talk about what's on the floor mr. smith goes to washington style. i think you can see the pendulum swinging away from this. . >> with we will talk with white house press secretary jen psaki. good to have you on the show. >> good morning. good to be here. >> great to see you. let's start with the filibuster. we know the president wants to keep it intact. does that mean for all legislation? is there any possibility for some exemptions? >> well, as you know, he was in the senate for 4636 years. his preference is not to make changes to the filibuster. and he wants to leave the door open to bipartisan work. people may say that's naive. he feels he's only 40 days into his administration, and he wants the door to be open so democrats and republicans can work together on legislation moving forward. >> jen, how important is this voting rights bill that is probably going to be up next in the house and the senate? how important is it that democrats find a way to stop republicans from doing what they are doing in georgia, iowa, across state legislativers across america where they want to make it harder for americans to want to vote? >> you're absolutely right, joe. i'm going to steal what kasie said. they said the quiet part out loud. it shouldn't be harder for people to vote. if people have the best ideas, they should want more people to vote. that's something the president absolutely believes. the legislation is working its way through congress. democrats are trying to figure out a path forward. the president wants the legislation to pass. most importantly, in making sure more people have access to voting, being able to vote, making it easier. that is a core value for the presidency. he will push for this. he will keep looking for ways to get that done over the course of the next couple months. >> good to see you this morning. >> good to see you. >> mr. the president has reached out to republicans both publicly and privately to get the legislation passed. it looks like at the end of the day he won't get a single one to vote for its papblg. what did you learn, what did the president learn about what washington is going to look like if you can't get republicans on board for a bill that is this publicly popular? >> republicans living in this zip code are outliars to where the american people are. i know you talked about this earlier in the show. some can explain that more to the rest of us. the majority of the country supports this bill. majority of republicans across the country support this bill and package. this is going to require a moment of self-reflection for republicans who aren't spauting getting checks to $160 million americans, money to vaccinate people. since when is that a democratic idea? it's an idea most americans support. maybe they need to look inside why they are opposed to it. . >> the progressives, and i'm sure you're hearing from a lot of them, would tell you this very process tells you why you need to get rid of the filibuster. no way you're going to get 60 votes. you have to go on a straight majority for the rest of the presidency. what do you say to progressives and people like bernie sanders? >> well, first, bernie sanders called this one of the most sweeping pieces of legislation in modern american history. i'm paraphrasing there. it was supported by not just him but senator joe manchin. democrats really stuck together on this. there are a lot of lessons amount of us who worked in government and the white house before even the president who learned. he didn't sit around and wait for negotiations to continue for months. he supported using the reconciliation process to get this bill through and get it passed. it looks to be headed on a party line vote. but he wasn't going to play games and wait for relief to get to the american people. we'll keep the door open moving forward. everybody wants to rebuild roads and bridges. and he wants to talk to republicans and democrats about getting those things done. >> we want to talk about the humanitarian crisis at the southern border. two sources confirmed more than 3,200 unaccompanied minor children in border control custody. that's a record number. half the children have been held beyond the three-day legal limit. some in holding cells not designed for children. nearly 170 of them are younger than 13. the new york times was first to report the number of detained children, the paper citing internal customs and border control documented reported the number tripled in the past two weeks. what is happening and how is the biden administration going to deal with this situation? >> well, let me first say it is incredibly difficult and an emotional issue in the white house whether you're a parent or not, watching the stories and hearing reports. this is front and center for the president. this administration did not feel it was humane or moral to send kids back on the treacherous journey back to where they were fleeing persecution or difficult circumstances. now we need to find facilities, shelters where they can have access to lawyers, to doctors. we are also in a circumstances where we are dealing with covid. a lot of facilities have smaller capacity. that's the challenge. that's what we are confronting. the president asked a number of senior policy officials running points on this very tough issue to go visit one of the shelters in texas and visit a border patrol station. what we are trying to do, mika, move kids as quickly as possible into shelters so they can gain access to all the resources i said and quickly move them into sponsor homes or connect them with family members. that's our objective. that's what the policy process is working through right now. . >> the trump administration received a lot of criticism. these are unaccompanied minors. what is different here? . >> well, first, we're not ripping children from the arms of their parents. that's exactly what the trump administration did. we don't think that is a moral step. we are not sending them on a treacherous trip that is dangerous and many have lost their lives. that is another big difference. during the trump administration, sometimes there was a jump to connect kids to individuals, adults who claimed they were family members or claimed they knew them. there were issues of child trafficking. we need to prevent that too. we need to take the time to vet the individuals who these kids are being connected with. we're trying to figure out how to expedite that process. i have been in many members where the president asked how can this be faster, do we have enough health and medical experts. those are the conversations that are happening internally. the challenges there are a lot of really difficult choices. we're trying to chart the best path forward. there is no question this is a heartbreaking circumstance at the border. >> jen incident to ask you about schools before we let you go. we had dr. emanuel on. he's been saying for months we have to get our schools back open. it's been a year now that a lot of kids have been out of school. they missed a year of in-person learning. socialization problems. should not the president, should not the white house come out clearly and say open the schools? if we know from the school districts that have been open that it is safe for children to be in school? >> look, willie, i want schools to open too. i have kids. you have kids. we all want our schools to open. you touched on the mental health impact, kids being taken back and learning. we have all seen that happen. the cdc has put out these guidelines which shows teachers, that one of the steps that can be taken is for them to be vaccinated. but there are a number of other mitigation steps that can be taken that schools can manage to do, hiring more teachers, more bus drivers, social distancing, upgrading facilities. and we also are on the verge of passing the american rescue plan with $160 billion to help some of the school districts that don't have the resources get that job done. we have a seubgt of education. this is in place confirmed. this is going to be his top righter priority. we're encouraged by some of the progress we're seeing. a lot of schools that opened around d.c. i know that's happening around the country. we're going to continue to work with school districts to get this done and get kids back in the classrooms. >> firing all on cylinders. you guys are amazing. jen psaki, thank you very much. >> thank you. great to be with you. >> before you go, i'm curious. i'm a huge fan of rescue dogs, is major still there? there's a report that he left. did he bite someone? >> i don't have any specifics. i don't have any updates for you, mika, on the reports of an incident. but what i can tell you, as a dog lover, i know you are, major and champ are part of the biden's family. they are members of the family. they often go to delaware when the first lady is traveling. and they are adjusting to their new home. they are beloved members of the family. of course of the white house family too. >> all right. major and champ. white house press secretary jen psaki, thank you so much. . >> thank you, mika. >> appreciate you coming on the show this morning. thank you. tom nichols, your thoughts on the press secretary's assessment especially on how they are handling unaccompanied minors at the border, first of all. and then we will head back to the filibuster. >> the problem with the border, no matter what the presidentst, some of this will blow back on him that this is a self-created problem. you know, the problem is we got used to this nightmare we were living through over the past few years. and now we're having to come back to dealing with this realistically and trying to figure out what to do about it. and so all of the policy options look bad. in some sense this will be a no-win proposition for the president. but at least they are approaching it as a problem rather than the previous administration who saw misery as a feature rather than a bug, as a potential deterpblt rather than a problem to be solved. as for the filibuster, one of the things i wondered while jen psaki was talking, what do you do about the bad faith problem? there must be some place where republicans will agree with me on these things. when it comes to the filibuster, i think there are plenty of thing that ought to be passed by a super majority. i don't see how it is possible when one of the two parties is openly committed to undermining democratic institutions. so i think, like manchin and others, people who may not like the filibuster, we're just going to have to -- maybe not like the idea of getting rid of the filibuster but may have to come around to it. there may not be any other way to govern whose only other idealism is obstructionism. >> major cities across the country have seen a spice in hate-fueled attacks on asian-americans. one of our next guests argues it is the same kind of hate muslims have dealt with. that conversation is ahead. you're watching "morning joe". we'll be right back. re watching. we'll be right back. opportunities are all about timing. so if you're turning 65 or retiring soon, it's time to take advantage of a plan that gives you more for 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coronavirus pandemic. this comes as the l.a. departments reports 16 major cities found 122 anti--asian hate crimes last year, 149% increase from the 49 in 2019. for more on this, we have former senior adviser for the house oversight committee, a columnist for the usa team and l.a. times. his latest is titled for trump and republicans it is open season on asian-americans like me. also columnist for "the daily beast". his latest column is titled" the same hate that targeted muslims is turning on asian-americans now." is the data showing there is a pretty sharp increase in attacks on asian-americans? . >> yes. since march, 3,000 incidents of hate directed against asian-americans and pacific islanders including to stop api hate. they collected from march to december. most hate crimes are actually under reported. a third of those hate crimes, according to that group, are racially motivated to the point where people are telling asian-americans go back to where you came from. they are calling them slurs. they are saying they are personally responsible for bringing the diseases, the pandemic, the virus. the last time i checked, coronavirus doesn't have a zip code, ethnicity or religion. if you track it, what was happening last ma or? president trump decided to label it the chinese flu. kung flu, creating an environment of hate where it was okay and acceptable to blame our fellow asian-americans for a deadly pandemic that has killed over half a million people. why are people surprised that some of the unhinged members of our society who got a license to hate are lashing out against innocent asian-americans, including 84-year-old thai grandfather in the bay area who was recently killed. >> kurt bardella, let's focus on that. what can be done through congress especially to try and bring these numbers down? . >> well, you know, mika, i think he hits on something really important here. so many hate crimes go under reported. and it's become very clear that the tools for law enforcement and public safety officials just aren't there to sufficiently, quadly, thoroughly investigate these things as hate crimes. oftentimes what we and anyone with common sense would categorize as a hate crime, it doesn't get investigated that way. there needs to be a concerted and broad effort by our our law enforcement community to better classify these crimes as hate crimes and to give law enforcement tools they need to follow through and hold people accountable for them. it is crazy that in 2021 we could watch a former president of the united states use the word "china virus," which to people like me, by the way, it's racest. let's be very cheer about that. and watch a bunch of white male republicans stand there and give a standing ovation when he uses that. to people who look like me, you are putting a target on our back. there is a reason why this widespread vie sense is happening, the republican party. >> talk about how awful this problem has become. the nypd here in new york city says hate crimes are up. what about the communications side of this? what do we need to do as a society to stop these hate crimes against asian americans? >> first and foremost, we have to stand up and dismantle white supremacy. one thing is that this is nothing new. in 1882, we passed the chinese exclusion act. at that time, which was an election year, especially in california, they said in order to placate the economic anxiety of many white voters they decided to attack chinese workers and laborers. they said they were going to replace them, that they were bringing disease. fast forward to 1940s, that manufactured fear against asian americans persisted. in the early 1940s during world war ii, what happened? we interned 120,000 americans of japanese decent. in the 1980s when there was economic anxiety, manufacturing competition between japan and america, it is a reboot, it is a remake. fast forward to 2021, because president trump helped mainstream hate against the caravan of invaders, it is okay for republican-elected officials to call it the kung flu. we have to recognize this is an american solution. big gots aren't nuanced. after 9/11, the first hate crime. in arizona, those are 19 foreign hijackers, but they didn't care. they killed a sick man. now they're killing a thai man. president joe biden, unlike trump, passed an executive order condemning xenophobia and saying to collect and report on data, that he's actually investing in these communities instead of trying to run a campaign on invaders not camming at the border. >> kurt, yamiche alcindor has a question for you. >> this is such a heart-breaking and terrifying thing that we're seeing all this hate against asian americans in this country. there is no excuse for it. what more should be happening to try to stop this, whether it's a legislation or whether it's something else because obviously there is the cultural part of this. this is also people needing to learn and be educated that asian americans are to blame for this. but i wonder, what do you think needs to be happening? >> thanks for this question. there are a couple things here. number one, we are seeing the api community come together and really promote these stories and put a face and a name to the hate. we are seeing celebrities coming forward and every day putting out notices of what's happening in real-time and encouraging people to become involved. there is a myth of the model minority and it is something that is at times, i think, at least for people who look like me that things aren't on par with what happens to people of color in this country with our african-american friends and our latino friends. asian americans are often more discriminated against in more places like new york city than other places. raising this awareness and talking about it, we're seeing members in congress become very vocal about the white house to their credit and the biden administration, they have had two round tables to talk about these things. representation in media, we're seeing now more than ever the media covering these things in real-time and giving a face and a name to the american people. i'm grateful for shows that "morning joe" who give people an opportunity who look like me to be seen, to be heard, to be visible because you can't really have the change that you need unless people see you every day and see that face and story. every time that i come on a show like this, my twitter, my instagram, the messages i get on social media are littered with people say, go back to china, the china virus. the only way that we're going to get passed that is if we continue to talk about it and that we don't shrink from that conversation. >> absolutely. thank you both very much for being on this show today. yeah meesh aisyn door, thank you as well. the big announcement from the cdc loosening the restrictions for fully vaccinated americans who can now safely hug their family members. plus, donald trump isn't in office anymore, but he's urging his supporters to donate to him instead of the gop. we will dig into his continued effort to keep a hold on the republican party. "morning joe" will be right back. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ (quiet piano music) ♪ ♪ comfort in the extreme. the lincoln family of luxury suvs. ♪ ♪ smooth driving pays off. saving is easy when you're in good hands. allstate. click or call for a quote today. is now a good time for a flare-up? enough, crohn's! for adults with moderate to severe crohn's or ulcerative colitis... stelara® can provide relief and is the only approved medication to reduce inflammation on and below the surface of the intestine in uc. you, getting on that flight? back off, uc! stelara® may increase your risk of infections, some serious, and cancer. before treatment, get tested for tb. tell your doctor if you have an infection... flu-like symptoms, sores, new skin growths, have had cancer, or if you need a vaccine. pres, a rare, potentially fatal brain condition, may be possible. some serious allergic reactions and lung inflammation can occur. lasting remission can start with stelara®. if you've been financially impacted by covid-19, janssen may be able to help. do you have a life insurance policy you no longer need? now you can sell your policy, even a term policy, for an immediate cash payment. we thought we had planned carefully for our retirement. but we quickly realized that we needed a way to supplement our income. if you have one hundred thousand dollars or more of life insurance you may qualify to sell your policy. don't cancel or let your policy lapse without finding out what it's worth. visit conventrydirect.com to find out if you policy qualifies. or call the number on your screen. coventry direct, redefining insurance. ♪♪ vaccine ♪♪ vaccine ♪♪ vaccine ♪♪ i'm begging of you please don't hesitate ♪♪ vaccine ♪♪ vaccine ♪♪ because once you're dead, then that's a bit too late ♪♪ it's not too late, baby ♪♪ it's not too late ♪♪ you really are gonna make it ♪♪ you're gonna be so strong and healthy ♪♪ when it's your turn, just take it ♪♪ don't be too late, baby ♪♪ don't hesitate. all right. >> fantastic. >> with her own vaccine song, inspired, she says, by dolly parton. >> tomorrow we are going to be doing our own, willie and i are. put up the tweet. if you could put up the tweet, that would be great. thank you, dolly parton, for inspiring me to record my own vaccine song. willie, that's our duet tomorrow morning. a dowot version of the happiest girl in the usa. it's going to be very exciting. we changed the words around a bit. we think we can get 50 million vaccines tomorrow just on the strength of our strong. it looks like oprah's interview with meghan and henry -- what's his name? >> come on! >> harry. sorry. forgot about that. >> yeah. when we had her in the restaurant in chicago that day, remember that, back in the "morning joe" days. 17 million people watched. obviously many, many more watched it online. probably watched it yesterday after they heard everything about it. that's an incredible number in this day and age of fractured media. oprah still gets it done with a little help from harry and meghan. >> and some big news. to say that they were asking questions about what the child would look like. my god. >> well, providing no names. >> no names except it was charles. >> totally. totally. >> but it was charles. >> because -- oh, no. it wasn't grandma. was it grand dad. oh, no. it wasn't grand dad. but it was a member of the family who doesn't have a lot of hair. well, come on. they have totally exposed the next king of england. i mean, they need to come out with -- if you are going to have that explosive of a charge, for some reason this offended people when i cede it. no. i'm saying that i said you need to give us a name. if you are going to accuse an institution that's been around for over a thousand years of that type of racism and the whole world is up in arms about it, you got to provide a name, unfortunately, willie. and i think again, right now the presumption is that it's charles, so he's doing grave disservice to his father if it's not charles. >> yeah. that happened yesterday morning when that comment got such attraction. he's leaving these bred crumbs on the trail. it is a small group of people it could possibly be. as you say, if that claim is true, that's the next king of england who is alleged to have asked those questions. >> right. well, but we'll leave it right there. >> no more hints, but it rhymes, oprah, with morals. >> what? >> just yeah. and you could see it in the way he -- i'm not saying anything definitive about that claim. but you could see how harry talked about his dad in that interview, how he doesn't return his calls, how we're working on our relationship, that the bond isn't great between father and son. >> at the dinner table pre-covid and i say something and miikka looks over at me, say what? when harry came out for his part of the interview, he found out she had passed along to oprah what she had told her, that somebody questioned what the color of the baby was going to be, and he was like, no, i'm not going to talk about that. >> okay. very awkward. let's get to the news this morning. the cdc released new guidelines for those fully vaccinating offering hope that life could soon return back to normal. >> we have been through a lot this past year and with more and more getting vaccinated each day, we are starting to turn a corner. fully vaccinated people can visit with other fully vaccinated people indoors without wearing a mask and physical distancing, visit from a single household indoors without wearing masks or physical distancing and refrain from quarantine and testing following a known covid-19 exposure if the vaccinated person remains asymptomatic. >> they recommend that fully vaccinated people wear well fitted masks, avoid large gatherings and physically distance themselves from others when out in public. and vaccination does not mean people can move freely around the country. the cdc said people should continue to follow their local health department travel recommendations. among those critical of the cdc announcement is emergency physician and public health professor who told the ap, quote, the cdc is missing a major opportunity to tie vaccination status with reopening guidance by coming out with such limited guidance, they are missing the window to influence state and national policy. willie? >> let's dig into this with our friend dr. gupta. it is great to see you. i don't think families have ever been so emotional about a powerpoint slide as they were when they saw this one from the cdc yesterday that showed the two green grandparents, theoretically if you want it to be a grandparent and a child and a grandchild saying if you are vaccinated, you can go see your family. you don't have to be masked. you can hug your children and grandchildren in most cases unless they are high risk. what do these guidelines mean and what do they not mean? >> good morning, willie. good to see you. what they mean is that vaccination will keep you out of intensive care. i think we actually have a slide showing what that means, what the purpose of vaccination means, a set of ct scans your team has it on deck here. you are showing it right now. this is the point of vaccination, willie. if you are, say, a grandma or a grand dad, you want to see your grandchildren you can go because those vaccines will keep you from developing lungs that are seen on the right. that's key. that applies to the johnson & johnson about veen. i keep hearing across the country, is that interior. i want the pfizer vaccine. no. all these vaccines will keep you out of intensive care. that's what the cdc is getting at here. these vaccines will protect individuals. we need to balance the head and the heart here. we need to get grandparents to see their grandkids. we don't know with certainty whether these vaccines stop transmission of the virus. it is weird how you can be kept out of the intensive care and still be a carrier. to push back, i see where she's coming from. we had 12,000 deaths still in the last week. it is still the leading cause of death in this country week after week. we are still in the middle of a pan pandemic, 70,000 cases. we're predicting 75,000 more deaths by july 1st. it could be 130,000 if more governors follow the lead of governor abbott in texas. this is why you are seeing a phased set of guidance. there will be a version two where i'm sure travel is going to be offered or recommended to individual who is are vaccinated once there is more vaccine. there will be a version two of this guide. so we continue to be readapted, so let's be patient here. >> let's be clear about what the cdc said yesterday for people who have been vaccinated. they said you can get together, including indoors without masks on. what are the limits on that for people who say, okay, great. i can go see my friends or i can travel to see my friends in florida because they have been vaccinated as well. what did that guidance mean to you? >> it means to me that if you want to congregate with other individuals that are closeby another household indoors, one additional household indoors, you can do so unmasked not distanced but when you leave that setting you need to still be very vigilant. mask distance in public because of the transmission question. we don't know if vaccines will necessarily stop you from transmitting this virus. it also made it clear you do this for those that are nearby, that you don't hop on a flight to see friends that may be vaccinated hundreds of thousands of miles away from you. again, for everybody out here saying, that doesn't make sense, there will be version two shortly, i imagine, that will allow for travel, allow for more normalization. it is coming. just not quite yet. >> treating covid patients since the very beginning of all this. great to see you as always. >> a fascinating look at the science helping to fend off this virus and others to come. walter isaacson with his new book on the medical breakthroughs that allow us to cure diseases. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. renae is not an influencer, she's more of a groundbreaker. renae runs with us on a john deere 1 series tractor. because out here, you can't fake a job well done. hear renae's story at deere.com i think the sketchy website i bought this turtle from stole all of my info. ooh, have you looked on the bright side? 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i can't say this enough. >> trump has a hold on them all. >> i can't say this enough that i think the real heroes over the past four years, i think the people in our government that stood shoulder to shoulder and remained committed to constitutional norms, remain committed to constitutional checks and balances, remain committed that democracy survived another four years regardless of the chaos that was going on outside the walls of their building were not just members of the united states supreme court but federal judges across america. and this cannot be said enough, federal judges across america appointed by republican presidents, federal judges across the country that were appointed by democratic judges, liberal judges and justices, justices and judges that were federalist society members in college, law school, throughout their career. it really has been remarkable what federal judges, what our independent judiciary has proven over the past four years, and that is that they remain the most resilient part. and really they're really the last best hope to protect our democracy, to protect our constitutional republic. >> coming up, donald trump doesn't want republicans to use his name or cashing in on his supporter's donations. the former president takes a shot at the gop next on "morning joe." nicorette® knows, quitting smoking is hard. you get advice like: try hypnosis... or... quit cold turkey are you kidding me?! instead, start small. with nicorette®. which can lead to something big. start stopping with nicorette® i'm draymond green with my subway sub with tender steak and melty cheese. my sub is gonna dunk all over your sub. excuse me? 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someone that crossed him at any point, someone who voted for his impeachment, someone who didn't support him in his effort to overturn an election. the question will be are those also the rhinos to voters at large across the country, republican voters, 74 million of whom voted for him. >> i mean, it has been lately. it has been over the past four and a half years that they have defined conservatism whether you support the biggest spending republican in the history of the party. and ben sasse, we saw what ben sasse said, his committee back in nebraska when he talked about this personality cult. he said a personality cult is not conservative. yet, donald trump is taking us one step closer to that personality cult. when i hear lindsey graham talking about donald trump is capable of magic. what magic, lindsey? the magic that caused democrats to lose house elections in 2018 by a historic margin? the biggest loser of all-time, 2018. the democrats won by the largest vote margin in u.s. history in a midterm election in 2018. is that magic? is it magic for donald trump to get in the way and actually seed the two seats in georgia and the control of the united states senate to democrats? is that magic? or to be so out of it, so amped up, so freaked out in the first debate that he cost himself the white house, he cost himself real action. no magic there. again it's just grifting, and it's a guy with strong man tactics. >> coming up, our next guest says the new cdc guidelines aren't too restrictive and they aren't too permissible. in other words, just about right. dr. michael joins us next on "morning joe." s us next on "morning joe." to support a strong immune system, your body needs routine. centrum helps your immune defenses every day, with vitamin c, d and zinc. season, after season. ace your immune support, with centrum. alright, i brought in ensure max protein... ...to give you the protein you need with less of the sugar you don't (grunting noise) i'll take that. yeeeeeah! 30 grams of protein and 1 gram of sugar drink, play, and win big in the powered by protein challenge! like, seeing my mom. it's unthinkable to me that i can't see her and i can't hug her. not being able to hug is just like somebody has to tie me down. touching someone to say i love you, to hug you... those are the things that i miss. ♪♪ ♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe." it is 36 passed the hour. a live look at new york city as the sun coming up on this tuesday morning. >> all right. >> joining us now, director of the center for infectious disease research and policy and professor in the medical school at the university of minnesota, dr. michael osterhome. let's talk about the new cdc guidance advice for fully vaccinated people. how do you think the cdc is doing in its messaging as we weigh through the last year or two of this pandemic. >> well, you said a very important word here, words, this is for fully vaccinated people, these recommendations. we don't want others to be confused by that. what they're trying to do is take the science we have with the practical reality of every day life and merge them together so that people actually feel the protection of their vaccine as much as they have the protection from their vaccine. i think these new guidelines which they emphasize repeatedly yesterday, we'll keep working to get them right, keep shifting towards more open ps as we get more information. i think they did a good job. we need to get this out to the public that these are for the people vaccinated only. for those not yet vaccinated, this should be all the more incentive to get vaccinated. >> doctor, it will be a while before we figure out the impact of these vaccines as far as whether you can still pass covid along, still get covid, but it doesn't have a huge impact on you. what can you tell us anecdotally from the evidence you are shifting through, from the information that's coming in. what impact does the vaccine have as far as catching it, passing it along, all that information that we're sorting through right now? >> well, it's kind of a tale of two cities. the first city is one where if you look at the vaccines we're looking at right now and you look at the strains or variants of the virus in the united states circulating and the vaccines are outstanding. they're performing very well giving us a high level of protection. the other city, however, is the one we're seeing throughout parts of south america and africa where there are certain strains of the virus variants are actually able to evade the immune protection of the vaccine that we currently have. these are the ones that have us concerned about where we go in the future. now, it is our hope. but we all know hope is not a strategy that we will not see a wide circulation of these variants that are able to undermine the protection from the vaccines. as long as it stays where it's at right now in this country, our vaccines are working well against the viruses that are here. we have to keep one eye open all the time about these variants that could become more common. that would really be a challenge with us for these vaccines. >> good to see you this morning. i know i sound like a broken record. but let me ask you about schools. do you see any reason why schools shouldn't be open at this point, given the evidence we have, the science we have, what pediatricians have said about the benefits outweighing the risks of schools being open? >> willie, we have a collision course with destiny on our hands right now with regard to schools. i talked about this last time we were on the show. this variant is now really taking off in the united states and it is taking off in a large way in schools. right here in minnesota, we have a major outbreak unfolding like we have never seen before. literally new counties every day where we're starting to see more widespread transmission in school children with transmission to adults. we're trying basically to plant our petunias in a category five hurricane right now. the next three to five weeks, major outbreaks in schools. this virus is affecting kids like it is in europe and the different than what we saw. i think we just are going to have a real challenge. we are going to be opening schools and i think closing schools all within a matter of weeks. >> do you think the baseline is to get every teacher vaccinated and then it will be safe including against the variant. >> we want to make sure we get all the teachers vaccinated eventually. i for one have been one of those saying we need to vaccinate everyone 65 years of age and older. we still have 45% of our population over 65 that have not seen a drop of vaccine. we know this is where the deaths are. 80% of the deaths in the country occur in those 65 years and older. with this new surge coming, one day does not make for a pandemic, but we have been previously over the past several weeks seeing case numbers per day in the 40,000 and 50,000. today we're almost at 100,000. we're seeing this curve go back up. i can tell you in many states right now, we're seeing that the b-117 is making up 45% to 50% of all viruses being found. in europe, you saw major transmission surges. i think it will be hard right now to deal with this b-117 in schools whether teachers are vaccinated or not. >> so curious what we know and what we don't know about the vaccines available. i know the guidance says take whatever vaccine you can get. they're all good, moderna versus job son and johnson. pfizer. but what do we know about how long they last? are they for life, for a couple of years? and will they be pretty much useful against most strands of covid, or is that unknown. >> you know, miikka, this is the billion dollar question. we're still trying to figure that out. it will only be with time when we figure out how these vaccines work. the data supports you get much more protection from the vaccine than you do from having the illness itself and developing your own natural immunity. that's why we're vaccinating people that had covid again. the question will be how long does the immune system actually stay in a place where it can, in fact, fight off the next infection? we'll know that over time. again, i just want to repeat the current vaccines we have are highly effective against the viruses we're seeing circulate here in the united states. but it is like sleeping with one eye open. we will have to constantly be watching these viruses from other parts of the world. let me put a plug in here, that this is why vaccine national nichl, this concept to take care of ourselves first is potentially very dangerous because if we see in the low and middle income countries which right now have almost no access to vaccine, ongoing transmission of the virus there, we will see all these new viruses spin out of low and middle income countries, that will threaten our vaccines here in the united states. we have got to vaccinate the world so that we don't see these variants coming out of low and middle income countries aiming right at us. so doctor stay with us. we want to talk about what you just referenced, the remarkable success of these vaccines so far and what it means for the future of medical breakthroughs. keep it right here on "morning joe." on "morning joe. and i'd like your best new smartphone deal. oh do ya? 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yep! bye! that's why we love skechers max cushioning footwear. they've maxed out the cushion for extreme comfort. it's like walking on clouds! big, comfy ones! oh yeah! why choose proven quality sleep from sleep number? because a good night's rest is where muscles recover, and our minds are restored. the new sleep number 360 smart bed is temperature balancing. and it helps keep you asleep by sensing your movement and automatically adjusts to keep you both effortlessly comfortable. perfect for those relaxing weekends. proven quality sleep, is life-changing sleep. only from sleep number. welcome back. 48 passed the hour. joining us now professor of history at tulane university, discussions his latest biography about one of the scientists who discovered the crisper gene technology. it is titled "the code breaker." gene editing and the future of the human race. also with us msnbc sign contributor lori garrett. and dr. michael is also with us as well. >> so, walter, first year of "morning joe," i think we woke you up. you were sleeping in bed. we woke you up to talk about your book on einstein. >> einstein, oh, my god. >> after clearing your throat, you explained how einstein may not have been the most brilliant scientist of his day, but he thought differently. he thought visually. and you went through the process of how he visualized himself jumping off a train, figuring out how he got through the theory of relativity. i'm wondering in this court book, talk about how thinking different made all the difference in the success of your subject. >> jennifer has basic curiosity, as did everybody who pursued the notion of crisper, which were these weird things you found in bacteria, these clustered sequences. nobody knew what they were. and eventually people discover, those clustered sequences contain within themselves the genetic material of viruses that had attacked that bacteria and bacteria used that as a way to chop up those viruses the next time they attack. whoa, is that something that's useful today. it shows how basic curiosity can lead to really useful inventions. what and likewise, turning our attention to using crispr and this technology for great detection tools against coronavirus but also cancers and any other pathogen and they're using it in ways that bacteria would admire us for doing because bacteria adapted it for the past billion years and we're doing it pretty quickly. >> walter you write in the book, quote, all the signists i write about in this book say that their main motivation is not money, or even glory, but the chance to unlock the mysteries of nature and use those discoveries to make the world a better place. i believe them, and i think that may be one of the most important legacies of the pandemic. reminding scientists of the nobility of their motion. you also say crispr and covid-19 are speeding our entry into a life science era. molecules are becoming the new micro chips. can we talk about this revolution of the new digital age? >> we went through the physics age in the early 20th century with einstein's theories leading us to atom bombs. the digital age is the internet and the computer combined to give us a digital revolution. now molecules are the new microchip. as dr. osterholm is talking about, the variants, we can tweak and program we're using in the pfizer, and moderna vaccines. the core of my -- the middle of my book is this race, this huge competition between jennifer doudna and emmanuel shapanche on one side, and other scientists, including fong jang. and they fought over patents. they fought over priority. and it was a pretty intense competition. but now that the coronavirus came along they've turned their attention to using this molecular tools they've discovered to fighting the coronavirus and they've been publishing these things on open source servers, they've been saying anybody can build on these discoveries to help fight covid and i think that scientists like the rest of us are motivated by fame and claim and prizes and nobel prizes and perhaps even patents but this reminded them that the reason they're really in this is that it's a noble endeavor science, and basic science can really make humanity better. and i think that's going to inspire a new generation that i hope will read books like this and say, hey, i too want to do that. >> lori garrett, i know you have a question for walter. but he is so exciting, and he is so right for anybody that is questioning the importance of this book. you actually have these crispr scientists who were developing rapid test procedures and vaccine strategies early on who made all the difference in the world about where we are right now and again shared them with the rest of the scientific community. >> well, that's true. but i mean we don't want to mix one kind of science with another kind of science. i was in meetings with jennifer and emanuel women science meetings where no men were allowed and we were exchanging all kinds of information about the difficulties we were having in getting recognition and getting treated decently by men in the field and of course both jennifer and emanuel have faced fierce critics, and done a good job of it but flash forward where we are with crispr and covid. i was in a meeting at the new york academy of sciences. walter, i want to ask you about this. because jang pain represented 13 months ago his sherlock platform and said with crispr we're going to rapid id right on the spot who's infected. we're going to know before you walk through the door, before you go through tsa, before you enter the office, the school, whatever. and it's ready to go. and i called up folks at mammoth, which is jennifer doudna's similar company and they were similarly optimistic. we don't have either one. 13 months later they're still not available. what's the problem? >> well, both of them have received emergency authorization use for -- in labs and you're right, we don't yet have them to bring home. and i think that's going to be a game changer when they're like home pregnancy tests where you can just buy them at the corner drugstore and bring them home and there have been delays on doing this. but now major pharmaceutical companies have teamed up with the jennifer doudna group you mentioned, which is mammoth, and then fong jang's group which is sherlock. what it does, as you know, laurie, because you've covered this well, is that it uses this simple technology known as crispr but it's really just an rna guide with an enzyme attached to it that says, okay, we can find any genetic sequence you want. i've been a bit disappointed. i thought they'd be out now, i think they'll be out by the summer but in some ways this will be a game changer because these will be platforms upon which other people can build great systems, such as detecting cancer cells or detecting, you know, your gut microbiome. they can detect anything that has a genetic code, which means just about anything in our body. so when that happens it will be like when the personal computer, when we first brought our first personal computer home and suddenly microchips and, you know, networks were part of our life. i think having a home kit like this will be transformative to biology. >> dr. osterholm is with us and has a question for you, walter, dr. osterholm? >> well, thank you, good morning, walter and we're all very excited to read this book. so thank you very much. this will be a very important part of our biological history here. as you know, and you have really thought a lot about this, over the course of the past several decades we've seen science used for really good purposes and we've seen science potentially used for nefarious purposes. i served seven years on the advisory board, which looked at this dual use opportunity. and crispr has brought us so many powerful acts of science. we're going to be using these tools in the future for good purposes but how do we minimize potential nefarious use? >> for one thing the deft department has already been funding, and jennifer doudna's lab and other places, including at mit, the notion of anti-crispr so if a malevolent actor decides to use this technology we have something to counter it. but how are we going to use it? how are normal societies going to decide we should edit things? and i think, you know, there's a large part of my book, as jennifer doudna and all the other people in the book, including philosophers and ethicists, we go step by step. now we're using it already to cure sickle cell anemia. we're using it already on cancers, both in china and in pennsylvania, we're using it already on a congenital eye blindness. these are all in clinical trials. the real question is what happens when you do what a chinese scientist did at the end of 2018, and edit early stage embryos to make inheritable edits, to make designer babies. and that doctor made a designer baby, twins so to speak, who didn't have the receptor that would allow them to get hiv, the virus that causes a.i.d.s. everybody was shocked and outraged because it was way premature to do things like that. the notion to make ourselves less susceptible to viruses, that becomes more debatable. we, in my mind, have to pause before we make inheritable genetic edits. that's something in the book that we go step by step and figure out when are we going to cross each of these lines? it's a slippery slope so we've got to go step by step, hand in hand. >> absolutely. fascinating. walter isaacson, we'll see you again tomorrow when we dive further into these ethical questions surrounding this general editing technology. dr. michael osterholm and laurie garrett, thank you both as well. and that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. hi there, i'm stephanie ruhle live at msnbc headquarters here in new york city. it is tuesday, march 9th. let's get smarter. we start with great news that has been a long time coming. the cdc now out with brand new recommendations for the millions of americans who have been fully vaccinated and it looks an awful lot like normal life. that is right, the cdc is following this and if you have been vaccinated it is now safe to visit family members indoors, without wearing masks or social distancing. even if those people have not gotten the shot. keep in mind you should absolutely still steer clear of people who are at elevated risk. but bottom line if you're a parent, or a grandparent who has been vaccinated and you've been staying away from your kids and grand kids because they haven't gotten the shot those days are officially over. it is time to pay them a visit and give them a hug or a thousand hugs. all of this is coming at a time when covid cases continue to fall across the

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