Transcripts For CSPAN2 Hearing On Child Hunger Food Assistance Programs 20240713

And vicki kennedy, the widow of Edward Kennedy discussed their husbands careers and legacies conversation about Public Service at the Kennedy School of government and Harvard University. Next, a house panel looking at the Trump Administrations changes to the Supplemental Nutritional Assistance Program. We hear from the Senior Vice President of the no kid Hungry Campaign and antipoverty advocates. Come to order, weve got objection and the chair is authorized for a recess at any time. I now recognize myself for five minutes to give an Opening Statement. Every child deserves the chance to grow up healthy. Children shouldnt have to worry about where their next meal will come from. Thats an unimaginable burden for a young person that can deprive them oftheir childhood. Food insecurity hurts childrens academic outcomes, their ability to Pay Attention and their behavior. It has longterm impacts on physical and Mental Health and even depresses lifetime earnings. As doctor Martin Luther king said in 1964, there is nothing newabout poverty. Sowhat is new however is that we have the resources now to get rid of it. That same year, in 1964 america and acted the precursor to the Supplemental Nutritional Assistance Program known as snap. America still has the resources to address poverty and the ability to lift up societys most vulnerable so they can achieve the american dream. Is one of our best tools for doing that. Provide moderate assistance to help americans in need. On average only 1. 43 per meal for participants and nearly 70 percent of households receiving snap benefits have children. But that doesnt just help feed children, the elderly and disabled that make up two thirds of its participants. It also boosts the economy, more than any other Government Program. According to moodys, every dollar of snap benefits increases gdp by 1. 73. Just to repeat, every one dollar of snap benefits increases the National Economy by 1. 73 area thats an incredible return on investment and snap creates jobs. According to the usda every 10,000 in snap benefits create one fulltime rural jobs approximately every 20,000 in snap benefits create one alltime urban job. Snap dollars are quickly spent on food necessities that flow into local businesses, ultimately supporting trucking and farm jobs among other things so this Program Designed to feed children, elderly and disabled also boosts our economy and creates jobs and this committee is responsible for combating waste, fraud and abuse but its worth noting snap related fraud is almost nonexistent. Snap also gives states flexibility to tailor the program to their citizens needs. First it is incentivizes work by allowing states to use income eligibility limits so someone doesnt have to turn down work to maintain snap eligibility. Second, snap allows states to let citizens own a car to get to work or to save for an emergency surprise medical bill. The Administration Currently through their proposal to change snap wants to disarm states of both of these tools. But in doing so, it will strip 3. 1 million households of their snap benefits including more than 2 million households with children. It also strips free lunch enrollment from nearly 1 million kids. For those children the Trump Administration policy would take food out of their mouths omat home and at school. How can we expect those kids to succeed . Yeah this ration needs to abandon this proposal as a chairman Elijah Cummings would have said, we are better than this. We know what is different it makes for families and children who would otherwise go hungry. I know frompersonal experience. I came to the United States from india with my parents when i wasthree months old so my father could pursue his education and our family could embrace the opportunities that america has to offer. Despite my parents best effort it wasnt easy. When we needed help, we were able to receive food stamps as my parents worked their way out of a difficult time. Today my father and engineering professor of 40 years bill teaching at Bradley University in. Or atillinois, my brother doctor and i am a congressman. That was my familys dream and it was possible because of my parents hard work but also because of the opportunities our country presents and the generosity and goodwill of the American People in america and an american president once told congress that hunger and malnutrition persist in a land such as ours is embarrassing and intolerable. That president was richard nixon. If president nixon and doctor king could agree on the importance of fighting hunger all those decades ago , surely, surely we can find Common Ground today to continue congresses strong support forsnap. Thank you and now i recognize chairwoman maloney or her Opening Statement. Thank you so much and thank all of you for coming today. As chairwoman of the committee on oversight and reform , i want to thank roger not kirsten murphy, chairman of the subcommittee on consumer policy for convening this important hearing. I also want to thank him for sharing his personal story. And showing how important this program is and we need to protect food for our families, our many struggling our wonderful people. I think you really show the importance of this incredible program. This hearing will examine the proposed rollbacks of broadbased categorical eligibility. For the supplemental nutrition Assistance Program or snap. One of the most important programs the federal government has. This is the third in a series hearings that we are having this week. Examining the negative effects of the Trump Administrations policies or property, housing, hunger and Health Regulations for children. These hearings are about the trumpet ministrations on children. Congress should be protecting children on the administrations harmful regulations and ensuring that our children have the resources they need to reach their full potential. One in six children in this country is already food insecure. Meaning they lack reliable access to food. According to the Us Department of agricultures own estimates, if this proposal is enacted, over 680,000 households with children would lose the snackfood benefits and nearly 1 million children would likely lose direct enrollment for preschool meals. The ministrations efforts to roll back broadbased eligibility for snap will increase Food Insecurity for children across this country, and any effort to modify snap should reduce Food Insecurity and not make kids hungry. Especially here in america. Ideal back. Thank you chairwoman and thank you for your leadership on this particular issue area that we really appreciate. Thank you for your leadership and all of these hearings i think are so important and it shows uniformity of the attack on children. Were looking atfood , rolling back the poverty standards. Loosening the controls on toxic editions and two environments. All terribly damaging to children. I think we should put in, put them all back and make laws in this country. Thank you chairwoman. Mister cloud is on his way back from an engagement and he will present hisOpening Statement. Following the witnesses. Let me first introduce miss lisa davis. Senior Vice President for the no kid Hungry Campaign and share our strength, thank you so much. Mister zach happen. Principle of Jefferson Elementary School in the Cheboygan Area School district in wisconsin, thank you so much. Miss diane sullivan, im sorry. Just got cut off a little bit. An advocate and shes with the organization witnesses to hunger. Miss tega toney, a teacher at Oak Hill High School in the Fayette County schools, thank you. And of course, mister adelson, he is a policy director with the foundation for government accountability. Thank you sir. If you would alwaysrise. And raise your right hand, i will begin by swearing you in. You swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to get is the truth, hold and nothing but the truth. So help you god. The records show the witnesses answered in the affirmative. Thank you and you may be seated. Microphones are sensitive so please speak directly into them. I will explain the iklighting system briefly. Green means go, red means s stop and yellow unlike with stoplights here in speed up. Okay. With that miss davids you are now recognized forfive minutes. Morning, thank you for the opportunity to join you today to share our concern about the ministrations proposed rules rollback broadbased bbc. Gorical eligibility for my name is lisa davis and im a Senior Vice President of our no kid Hungry Campaign. Share our strength is focused on ending poverty and hunger in the us and worldwide but we do have a particular focus on children in the United States. Im here today to talk about two things. First, to provide a brief overview of bbc and why it is so important for families. And second, how this rule would hurt working poor families, seniors and individuals with disabilities. First, what it does. The ece is an effective practical policy that there are many families with gross incomes above hundred 30 percent of poverty. But you still have difficulty making ends meet and according food because of high cost of things like housing, childcare, medical benefits. Bbc allows these families to and remain eligible for set and to preschool meals. Creates efficiency and reduces administrative burdens on state agencies in schools but most importantly, it encourages work. It helps low income families out of poverty and build financial security. It allows them to accumulate assets whether an unexpected financial crisis. It also helps ensure that their children can receive the nutrition they need at home and at school. One thing bbc is not is an automatic pathway to snap benefits. Families must still apply and qualify for benefits through the regular application process. Which as rigorous procedures for documenting income and circumstances. Indeed, family and the guy currently eligible for snap but not receive the benefit because their net income is too high. Let me give you an example of who it helps. A similar mother was to children who works fulltime and endurance 12. 50 an hour would receive 161 in snap per month. Without being ece, it if her weight is increased by just a few centsntan hour , her income would exceed hundred 30 percent of poverty and her family wouldlose snap , ending up with 75 per month fewer in resources. She sewould actually be worse off by accepting a marginal race. Bbc prevents that and support work by letting the family slowly phase as moms earnings increase. Access to staff is important because a robust body of research reinforces that snap is our nations most effective nutrition program, particularly for children by her reducing Food Insecurity and improving a childs longterm outcomes including health , education and even lifetime earnings. Snap provides a return on investment in a corporate ceo would envy. And make no mistake, the ministrations proposal to restrict bbc would be a heart step backwards in our fight to end childhood hunger. Ifyou ministrations proposed rule becomes law, 3. 1 Million People , more than 2 million of whom have children would lose their snap benefits entirely and an estimated 982,000 children will lose the automatic certification for preschool mill meals that results from their families receipt of snap. Even though many of these children will remain income eligible for free or reduced ha price meals, exploring tells us that far too many will fall through the cracks. Confusion about eligibility, human error and stigma all create barriers to enrollment and even though lowercost of reduced meal is a better edcost meal for families saving every dime to cover basics like rent, utilities and gas so what happens when children wh lose in school meals mark they had a double way of meals lost at home and school, it exacerbates allthe other problems hungry children face , diminishing their academic performance and physical health and the opportunity to achieve their full potential. Food is one of the most timportant School Supplies in half. I work with families living with Food Insecurity. Their moms and dads who are working incredibly hard to better their lives and those of their children often hold down multiple jobs, cut expenses to the bone and yet still find it impossible to stretch the paychecks to make ends meet one emergency expense like a car repair or a medical bill can set them back for months or years. I would like to leave you with one final fact. Broadbased categorical eligibility is working. It helps low income families work and build savings area it also ensures that their children get the fuel they need to grow, thrive and reach their potential. These are goals we can agree on area. Acumen status. Mister essen. It is 10 am on monday morning and you are sitting in your third grade classroom. The teacher is beginning to wintroduce a reading lesson for the day focused on the phonics of howconsonants Work Together to make sound will help you decode words. You are asked to Work Together with apartner to identify words with the same pattern. You look around and think everyone is able to focus on the task but you cannot. It has been 65 hours since you ate a substantial quality meal for lunch at school area your stomach begins to turn and you start to feel anxious and frustrated. All you can think about is the lunch period. The teacher notices you are not paying attention and asks you to focus on the partner project as generalized you how important it is to be a goodreader. You think this is not as important to me as it is to you, i am hungry. You lose a connection with the teacher is to believe she doesnt understand you and you begin to tune her out. Several after several weeks, out you f tuning her realize you are so far far behind the idea of catching up academically teams overwhelming and not worth your energy area did you look for ways to pass the time which means talking to your friends and disrupting the class. All these disruptions that you sent to the Principals Office to avoid the embarrassment ofnot knowing the material. Disruptions become more chronic until eventually you are suspended from school. Time goes on and your attendance rate drops. When desperation overcomes you you decide to drop out of school. With few job skills you areleft with limited options for employment. They do not pay well enough or are stable enough to advance your career. You are living paycheck to paycheck. Youstart a family and want what is best for them. We want what every parent wants from every background a better future. You worked several jobs so you can become financially secure but you are not spending time with your family. Your Childs School once you involved but you have to decide between being there for your kids or financial solvency. One of the Biggest Barriers to social success and social mobility is nutrition. Jefferson Elementary School in sheboygan as students like this as well as countless schools across the country. These schools are not only located in major urban areas but Rural Communities. Even in Sheboygan County that boasts one of the lowest percentages of unemployment. Changes affecting eligibility of students will have an overall negative effect on our schools and communities across the country. Using the combined average percentage of students from direct certified families the sheboygan Area School District has four schools eligible participating in the cep program. The Program Allows the schools to offer a free breakfast and lunch to all our students regardless of our participation. M parents no longer have to complete a complex annual free or reduced lunch application but a much simpler alternative income form used in determining if economically disadvantaged. When all students are participating in school lunch it creates an environment free of stigma. When all students are getting the same meal it becomes less apparent which students come from which families area when all students participate, meal participation increases dramatically. Our data shows when more students in a school meal option behavior incidents decline. When all students participate in meal programs we are able to adjust our schedule to include serving akbreakfast in the classroom. It allows students the time to chair a meal together, build relationships that goes beyond education. Students and teachers can talk about their lives outside of school, learn important social skills and spot the child struggling and offer support. Relationships created during these mealtimes are invaluable to building a School Community focused onthe whole child. By offering free meal options we also free parents to focus energy and resources on other needs. Parents have to buy fewer groceries because they know their child will have a nutritious breakfast and lunch area resident focus on spending quality time with their kids rather than frantically preparing breakfast or lunch is. Parents can use thatstate money to provide other essential need for their families. Save or invest in their own career advancement. If changes are made to the broadbased categorical eligibility, a segment of our familieswill no longer qualify for snap. When this percentage goes ldown we are unable to offer free breakfast and lunch to students. Without these options available, families will be forced to o make tough decisions for their families and the result will be an increase in hunger and less educationalopportunity and upward mobility for our countrys most valuable and vulnerable population. Our kids. Thank you so much for this opportunity to present the story about Jefferson Elementary School. Thank you very much, we appreciate it. Mister sullivan, you are on the class for five minutes. Chairman krishnamoorthi and members, thank you for the opportunity to present testimony before you. I am diane sullivan, mother of six from medford massachusetts. Ive experienced hunger, homelessness for a year with my family and have been an antipoverty advocate for the past 20 years. I seek to create meaningful seats at the table for those impacted by harmful policies like the administrations puzzle to limit categorical eligibility and the step program that allows individual state to consider the local Economic Conditions when determining which of their residence qualify. My family is among the 3. 1 million americans will lose benefits if this proposal stands. I left with four of my children, two High School Students to recent graduates. Because my two dollars work in additionto my own , income from their parttime jobs is also considered in determining snap eligibility. I our combined monthly gross income is 124 above the federal snap income limit of 130 percent fp for a family of five. But because my state applies brought into categorical eligibility and my workrelated expenses are considered , our income after deductions currently qualifies us for 187 a month in staff benefits. My state ranks third highest in rental housing costs, second in childcare and first in terms of the cost of our food. Categorical eligibility allows to consider these types of barriers to food based by their residence. Massachusetts allows for households with incomes up to 200 percent fpl to be considered or snap. Not eligible, but considered. Counter to the admin stations rhetoric i didnt just wander into an office, receive a pamphlet and walk out with snap benefits area that is not at all how this works. Our income at 135 percent fpl only allowed us through the door to then be intensely lyscreened to determine that our income after deductions fall below the federal threshold, then triggering eligibility. In fact, it took three months of overcoming bureaucratic confusion,bureaucratic confusion for us to become eligible. Ill, we are recovering from the time when we were receiving the benefits for which we were eligible. It went beyond reducing the number of health emails and snap for my children, particularly my two teenage boys. And that i was giving him funds meant for renting utility and visiting food pantries. Adding to the trauma of the struggles, the 16yearold a vehicle i was gifted five years ago broke down and needed repair. This delicate juggling act resulted in a rather solemn 2019 holiday season. My children do not ask for much, they are welladjusted and caring young adults but that doesnt minimize the pain as a mother like so many others who had a plan to celebrate them by fulfilling their modest wish list and filling their bellies with holiday season. Instead, i felt as empty as the space under the tree where their giftsshould have been. As we sat and ate the one pot i had prepared for which we were all grateful. During those imonths the fruit bowl on my Kitchen Table often sat empty. I stretched the meat and veggies intended for one meal into two. My fear is that we will be pushed back into the same situation if this roleis implemented without snap , in addition to having lessfood at home , my sons could lose access to preschool meals. Even if they qualify for reduced costs, a few hundred 52 and an annual expense of my already overwhelmed but cannot afford. Further, we would lose access to the Healthy Incentive program that makes purchasing produce from local farmers more affordable. Mister chairman, im an active advocate for our neighbors who struggle to afford food in this nation of agricultural abundance. The past few years have taught me that productive farmers howho do produce the safest, most diverse and affordable food options in the world are perhaps among the best friends of low income people can have. Increasingly, corporate retailers, policymakers and food activists are placing burdens on farmers that drive up food prices. Lower income families are caught in the middle between one ideology that makes food more expensive and the other which erodes the safety net area this proposal like many burdens based on farmers is designed by people can afford to not even look at food prices when they shop. These understand from someone who has worked hard, struggled and still has raised really good children against the odds, this snap proposal is a gunshot to those equipped to take the blow or to fight back. You for taking the time to hear not just from policy experts but also from this expert first in the experience of hunger. Thank you. Thank you very much missed sullivan. Miss tony, you have 5 minutes. Chairman krishnamoorthi and members of the subcommittee, i am a social studies teacher at Oak Hill High School in oak hill West Virginia. We are situated in the southern portion of the state which is struggling due to declining coal revenues and a crippling opioid epidemic. The majority of my students come from household struggling to make and me. Many of my students are the primary caregivers of their younger siblings you i have students who are homeless, who have lost parents to an overdose. And you are working evening jobs to contribute financially to their families. For these reasons and many more, it is gutwrenching to see a proposal to cut snap benefits that will only hurt these children and families even more. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to share how Food Insecurity tangible threat to my students and their wellbeing. Every day, i see the impact hunger can have on a student. Academically , students are unable to focus and become inattentive housing them to mix important and Vital Information in class. The more informationdo business in class , the further behind they fall. To Food Insecurity affects students and their families emotionally. When parents arestruggling to put food on the table , many may feel a sense of worthlessness. Children consensus, especially High School Students like mine. As educators we see students bring these issues into the classroom. They also carry the burdens from home. I have witnessed this in my students in many ways. Ranging from mood swings and irritability to emotional outbursts and beyond. This is a real issue that needs to be considered when funds that provide access to food and nutrition are being cut. My real fear and concern is that if thisproposal comes to fruition , many of my students along with thousands of other virginiawill lose access to food at home and at school. While it is true that some of those students will still qualify for free and reduced price meals, it will require their parents or legal po guardians to submit paperwork. This is a purposefully unnecessarybarrier. There are countless instances when parents cannot complete the required paperwork. Just in my community i can tell you this could be due to pride, shame or an incapacitation the result of addiction. Almost a decade ago my School District recognized the need to combat the Food Insecurity plaguing our students. We included a universal feeding program so that all students no matter their socioeconomic status received ofree breakfast and lunch. This is a combined effort of the federal government, our School District and taxpayers to care for our most vulnerable populations, our children. Every school in our district qualifies under the Community Eligibility provision. We received federal money to cover the cost and the money from the excess levee covers the rest area 11 is up for a vote every 5 years and has always passed with more than 70 percent cross rate. The message our district sends is clear. We care about kids and their need for nutrition area while our child and i are proud of our feeding program it does raise an important question. Is it fair to expect the School District to shoulder a responsibility of this magnitude mark if this proposal is enacted, many School Districts would not be ableto develop and implement Creative Solutions such as the one in my district. Are we going to expect teachers, school cooks, custodians and secretary to begin carrying this responsibility mark home employees already carry our students emotional baggage with us. In many instances, School Employees try to meet the basic needs of our students while also caring for our own families. We love and care for kids. That is why we are in the business we are in area but is it fair to expect us to shoulder this burden to . In southern West Virginia our families, students, schools and communities are hurting unfortunately, our situation is not unique. The issues we face can also be found in cities,towns and Rural Communities across this nation. This proposal will do much harm and provide no help to the families that need it the most. The family struggle will be compounded and the kids will suffer. We can and must do better. Thank you for the opportunity. Thank you miss tony. Mister adelson, you have five minutes. Chairman, members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify this morning. Millionaires should not be eligible for food stamps. Neither should someone with 20,000 in the back. I knew wheeler or jetski in the garage. Or the owner of a private aircraft. In state governments, should be basic checks to make sure only the truly needy seafood steps area this isnt complicated for conspiracy or even controversial. Its just common sense. Food stamps are meant for the neediest americans. And ive witnessed firsthand how and innocent sounding policy like orbroadbased allegorical eligibility known as bdc can open the door wide to fraud and abuse. When i was the chief operating officer at the Maine Department of health and Human Services and oversaw foodstamp eligibility, we struggle to maintain integrity in the program because of bdc. Someone on welfare may actually own an airplane. And recently a millionaire detailed how easy it was for him to get Welfare Benefits legally thanks to bdc. Congress did its job in mpsetting eligibility standards for the Food Stamp Program. And Congress Also had a good idea in trying to reduce administrative duplication by allowing automatic enrollment or some other welfare recipients. What congress meant for good, bureaucrats used as a gimmick. Rather than reduce administrative costs, the Clinton Administration exploited the policy to maximize enrollment hereshow it works. Anyone who receives the brochure printed with money from another Welfare Program is automatically enrolled. With the ridiculous justification that its the same as receiving a real welfarebenefit. And that loophole is so bad today that the Welfare Office often deems applicants eligible based on the possibility of receiving the socalledbenefit, they dont even receive that. Then, no one looks at a bank. Ccount there are no asset checks of any kind. And the income limit is instantly extended by nearly double in most states. All with the wave of the magic welfare one. Its the academy of welfare fraud. And unfortunately it has to the federal stamp of approval in more than 40 states. There is the result is millions of people with significant assets who are ineligible according to law are on food stamps. Many of these recipients comes up to double the federal Poverty Level. They could be eligible for food stamps with nearly the same income level as the average american household. For the truly needy who depend on the Food Stamp Program , that simply is not fair. And its not there to congress who wrote the law and made it clear that it does not want food stamps are all but rather stamps for those who truly need them. The Administrative State should never have been allowed to expand the welfare beyond what congresssanctions and the rule put forward by the trumpet ministration will correct that overreach. Because this is such a practical change, those opposed to closing this loophole have decided to pit to talking points about a program that is only loosely connected to food stamps. The school once program. The truth is the real impact of this ruleon School Lunches is virtually zero. In fact, in 34 states, not one single child will lose their school lunch eligibility as a result of this rule. And in the other states, a child eligible for free or reduced school lunch based on their income level as set in federal law will remain eligible for free and reduced school lunch area very few, just 9600 out of 30 million kids who receive free or reduced school lunch may need to paytheir portion for the school lunch because they get to the eligible only through this loophole. There may be actually zero impact because kids in continuing eligibility provision schools will continue to get free lunches regardless of their income or welfare enrollment area with no eligibility process at all. Those schools universal free lunch today. The trumpet ministration should be applauded with this simple common sense rule. Especially now in thisbooming economy , ngit makes sense to close loopholes and government gimmicks and transition adults and their families welfare to work area from government dependency to selfsufficiency and the american dream. Thank you. Thank you mister adelson, i think the example if thats true that someone on an airplane and got food stamps proves that snaps fraud detection works. And so im glad you broughtup that example. Theres so many groups out there that want to see hungry kids bed so that they can succeed and they rose up in strong support of this hearing. Im going to seek unanimous consent to enter letters into the record from some of those groups, we are proud to have received the following letters of support. One from president Randi Weingarten of the American Federation ofteachers. A letter from the us conference of mayors endynamite 70 us mayors from both red and blue states including mayors in texas, West Virginia, ohio and north carolina, a letter from 24 faith groups , a letter from maison, a jewish response to hunger. A letter from the religious Action Center of reform judaism. A letter from the National Womens law center, a letter from the West Virginia chamber of commerce. And a letter from a group of chefs who feed hungry kids through the no kid Hungry Campaign. Without objection, so enter area i now recognize Ranking Member cloud for his Opening Statement. Thank you chairman and thanking witnesses and let me apologize for my tardiness. I was across town at the National Prayer breakfast and with the president leaving we were locked in until we could clear the road. I apologize again. I do thank you for being here this morning to talk about this important topic. The supplemental nutrition Assistance Program also known as snap provides nutritional assistance for low income americans cannot afford Nutritional Foods themselves and their families. Snap has always been designed to be a safety net to those who find themselves in a situation that leaves them food insecure. When speaking of welfare reform, president obill clinton said we need to transform a broken system that traps too many people in the cycle of dependence to one that emphasizes work and independence to get people on welfarechance to draw a paycheck , not a welfare check. To go to give those on welfare what we want for all families the opportunity to succeedat home and at work. Last july the Us Departmentof agriculture issued a proposed rule regarding snap categorical eligibility. Unfortunately bad actors in some states have taken advantage of loopholes to circumvent the requirements for eligibilitybeyond what was originally intended. This practice as allowed states to issue snap benefits toindividuals whose income may exceed eligibility requirements. And as the administration continues to examine ways to reform Government Programs i think its important for us to keep in mind that countries current economic climate. Since President Trump took office the us economy has created 6 million jobs. The Unemployment Rate is 3. 5 percent , the lowest it has been in 50 years. And in 2018 a level of Food Insecurity inamerica dropped to 11. 1 percent , the lowest level since 2007. It could seem judging by the title of todays hearing that some may argue we should blame the president for the number of schoolchildren no longer receiving free School Lunches. The truth is none of the administrations policy proposal regarding snap have yet to go intoeffect. When they do, 96 percent of children affected by the proposed rule will remain on qualify for reduced price for free meals under the National School Lunch Program. Importantly all eligible children will continue to receive reduced price or free meals under the National School Lunch Program. So yes, one could say that the president is responsible for the reduction but not because of some draconian heartless policy but rather because the trump economy is providing opportunity and upward mobility across the demographic spectrum, bringing many from reliance on the government. Of course there is still work to be done and there always will be but i hope we can have a productive conversation in good faith on how to insure the funds allocated for theseservices w,are going to those truly in need. The conversations of course are never easy. But if we cant have these conversations now, when so many are taking steps towards financial independence, how can we . Studies have shown states are providing snap benefits to 3 to 4 million individuals who do not meet basic eligibility requirements and lets remember that at least 96 percent of those receiving School Lunches would still be eligible to this rule go into effect with some buddies telling even more. I think its important in mind what real compassion is closed as a great tendency among politicians in washington for convinced themselves and then tried to convince the American People that are virtuous Public Service is measured by how many of their money we spend and we can often in choosing to find success by metrics that measure activity as opposed to efficacy. Or we can have real compassion cares enough to do the hard work Due Diligence necessary to ensure that our best intentions as congress are actually producing the desired out. And as we look to address the needs of our nation , we have a responsibility to n be good stewards of the peoples money. That does mean from time to time that its not only right but also our duty to evaluate how programs are working and to make adjustments to ensure that the investment are nature nation is making is having the desired outcome and two, being managed efficiently. Compassion ortakes into account both those in need as those working to fulfill the need and even more so,those that will come after us. As our constitution states, our purpose is to secure the blessings of liberty not only for ourselves but also for our posterity. Isthank you chairman and i yield back. Ve thank you mister cloud and i now recognize myself for five minutes. Mister davis, its our understanding that fraud is almost nonexistent in snap, can you explain that and tell us why snap is so meffective at preventing fraudand would you mind addressing mister adolphsens comments . Pef benefits are paid improperly, and there are dribble penalties for people criminal penalties for people who violate the law and gauge in criminal connell suspect should be. The vast majority of payments are paid to families that need them. I think i think, you know, one comment i would like to make is this world does not close a loophole, it slams a doorway out of poverty shot for working families. I think we all share the belief that a good job is the best way out of poverty and that look assistance policy should foster and encourage work and so that is why this rule is baffling because categorical eligibility does that is any policy that i know of. Only point to percent of that benefit goes to families with net incomes over one 100 of poverty and it is a small percentage of the snap caseload that is affected by this and it is already the tory analysisse usda noted that those most affected are working families with children who have very high costs of housing and childcare. They also even noted that the result would likely be an increase in food and security and hardship which is unacceptable. Finally, if i may, for one more point, on the school meal point, as i said i take exception to the idea that virtually no children are behind. 40000 kids will lose free and reduced pricing in new york o entirely and for each one of those kids that is a very big deal. More than half of those kids will move from free meals to reduced price meals. As ms. Sullivan mentioned and our educators and ifor as we her everyday that might not seem a lot to all of us who are quite comfortable but to a family that is making writeoffs between paying for utilities or buying vegas to get to work that is a very significant sum of money. It can have a profound impact. Ms. Sullivan, let me allow you to address this issue abroad. It comes up repeatedly. Could you comment on this and, you know. Thank you. This gentleman does not know me but he assumes he does. I believe he use the terms here is how it works. I can tell you from my perspective as a snap recipient how it works. But, i think, the Biggest Issue and the reason why there is so much talk in rhetoric and assumptions about who we are as people is that we are not here in these rooms or these tables. I would be happy to have a conversation, followup conversation to really inform him of the realities. I understand you worked in a state administration and here is the thing, nobody is going to deny that fraud or waste or abuse does not exist. It is next to minimal but why are we focusing attention on that, especially when it is such a small portion. What we need to focus on is families like mine who will be impacted. I am notea a fraud. I work, andg i do every night cn to provide the best just like everybody in this room does but i want the best for our children and feeding them healthy food is the foundation for them to build for that is what we need to focus on that i dont want to take food from them. There is this misconception that you want to be on a snap aid. What is your response to that . My responses i absolutely do not. There is so much shame associated with that. Again,. Tell us about that why is there seem associated with it . People will assume that because we are accessing programs that we that we are frauds and there are people out there spreading that misinformation but we become political footballs in this ga game. Our children, the most vulnerable, least able to stand up and defend themselves are essentially being told to do your part and pay your way. Listen, i work and i happen to live in a state that is one of the most expensive in the country. Our energy costs are among the highest and we strugglees and we are hardly the only ones. Ha 2. 1 Million People about to lose benefits and we know that there is more. We, the people being affected, need to be in these spaces where policies are being discussed so we can take back the narrative about ourselves. We know who we are as people. We know our value and communities and to our families. This time that we control the conversation and stop allowing people like this gentleman over here to my left to control that narrative about us. [applause] mr. Cloud, you are wrecking eyes for five minutes of questions. Oh, im sorry. Ms. Muller, you are recognized for five minutes of questions. Thank you, chairman. Thank you for holding this important hearing today. I want to thank ms. Tony for being here. She is from West Virginia and it is nice to have another fellow West Virginian in the room that recognizes the importance of keeping our children and families said. This topic is extreme impersonal and critical to my district. I want to recognize the fact that everyone who is here today is committed to making sure thel people who are struggling receive the help they need to live happy and healthy lives. Additionally adequate nutrition during infancy and Early Childhood is essential for Child Development and wellbeing. The programs were created to help families and children who arere in great need. As i have said before in this committee, we can disagree on what helps or hurts but our goals are the same and i support the administration for the work they have been doing to help guide families off of welfare. I will fight to make sure that benefits are given to the people athat need them. These our our children but we dont want them to go hungry. Mr. Dolph, how much children participate in the National School Lunch Program annually . Am approximately 30 million. What schoolage children are statutorily eligible for the program continue to qualify for reduced Lunch Programs nice pmeals . Yes, maam they would. As i mentioned in my testimony this issue is extremely important in my district. West virginia has struggled and the proposed rule does not affect the eligibility requirements for child nutrition programs, is that correct . It does not directly affect the eligibility as laid out for that program in law. Okay. In the state of the Union Address on tuesday the president highlighted that 7 million americans have come off food stamps. This number is exciting when it means that there are people who are now financially stable and can provide for their families. In fiscal year 2017 there were an estimated 82point to million monthly snap participants in fy 2020 participants estimated that there were 36. 4 million and that is a big difference for it in your opinion is it safe to assume that the 7 million off food stamps are a result of a stronger economy . There is no question about it. Record number of open jobs, Record Number of people going back to work andba there have ao been reforms done at the state level that have helped spur this change paired work requirements have come back into effect in a number of states and we have seen Great Results of people moving from welfare to work and back into the workforce. I would like tond hear more about the time he spent in the Maine Department of health and Human Services. He saw you oversaw operations for their Welfare Programs and what was most important Key Takeaways from your experience and how did they relate to todays discussion . Sure, thank you for that question. As it relates to t bcb i can tel you more about what i saw and why it has this connection to frauds. When someone is approved through bbc and 97 of all people on food stamps and bbc states are approved through bbc. There is no asset check at all. What happens is information that would normally be available to you as an agency to determine and verify their status, household composition, income sources, other things like that the agency does not even look at at all. The challenge there is it opens the door to fraud, as i mentioned, the gao the people who come in through bbc three times more likely to have errors and in 2011 the obama and menstruation actually stopped looking at cases for payment errors. And that is not even reflective in this percentage of fraud the folks are referencing. How many people would that be . It is hard to come up with an exact number because we dont hecheck assets now. Just a quick example, the largest fraud case in Maine History over 200,000 a woman stole and did not report that her husband lived with her. Well, she was on the program through bbce and so her assets werent checked. When they later found this fraud through a report they looked at her Bank Accounts and her husband was listed as a joint owner of the bank account. That was a fraud that could have been caught had we checked the things like assets at the front door, which bbce does not allow. I yield back my time. Thank you. I think that we should always bt sure to check one 100 of the witnesses statistics at this point. Let me turn the questioning over to chairwoman maloney for five minutes of question. Thank you, mr. Chairman and thank all of you for sharing testimony today and in your Opening Statements you have detailed how vital snap is to combating hunger in this nation. I am stunned that the Trump Administration is taking action that will result in 3. 1 million individuals losing their snap eligibility. Dms. Davis, all Food Insecurity is a very personal and intimate issue that family may face it is unfortunately not uncommon in our country. Cu how many people across this country experience foodea insecurity each year . According to the latest data from usda more than 37 Million People live in food insecure households in the u. S. That includes 11. 3 million children or one in seven of our nations kids. Living with Food Insecurity are found in every county in every Congressional District across our nation, urban, suburban, rural. Ur that number is still much too high and i would point out child Food Insecurity has declined the lowest point since 1998. That is to in large part by actions taken by previous administrations and bipartisan congressional acts to strengthen access to snap for families with children. Okay. What is the longterm consequences to a Childs Health and wellbeing if they experience Food Insecurity in childhood . Those cones offenses are very profound good food insecure children have higher rates for mental and physical health and more likely to be hospitalized to suffer from common illnesses and colds,haches asthma. Adolescents experiencing food and security post host mental if they use and a greater risk for depression and until problems including suicidal thoughts. A report published by the center of the developing child at Harvard University h highlights nutrition as a key foundational pillar for healthy Child Development. Food access and intake are Critical Issues that do impact the childs Lifelong Health trajectory and the cognitive delays of food insecure children face put them behind their peers in kindergarten and for years to come. Yet, instead of proposing measures that would help to reduce Food Insecurity in the station the administrations proposed a new rule that takes snap benefits away from 3. 1 million children. Ms. Sullivan, you are a mother and i can only imagine the struggle you face to provide food for your children each day. Can you explain how important snap has been to your children . Y absolutely. Thereve been times as a parent there is no worse feeling than you could experience than putting your children to fed on an empty belly. I think back to those times where i have been there and i was as a breastfeeding mother unable to take in calories on my or for myself to then produce enough milk to sustain my newborn daughter at the time who then as a result of the physical impact of not taking in enough calories she herself was had to attend physical and Occupational Therapy to rebound and we are talking about a newborn. In the times when snap has been available to me because let me make one thing clear, normally families i have myself and i will wait until the very last minute because there is to me it is a very dramatic experience to walk into a state office and ask for assistance. It is a reminder that you hit rock bottom. The intense trauma of the moment and in those times when i have been able to access snap benefits that were eligible for i am able to provide for my family again, doing what we all want to do. Healthy snacks my children are able to grab on their way from school to work to their activity. Literally just having enough food to put on the table and sot many times i literally cried myself to sleep and i know i am not alone in this but there are millions of us out there because i didnt eat myself that day and was uncertain of how i would feed my children the next day. This is the reality about the reality that so many of us face. Principal, how would the administrations proposal affect the ability of the children in your school to come to school ready to learn . Thank you for your question, congresswoman. Our kids in order to be their best selves in school need to come with a full belly and with the knowledge and thought they will be food secure. Academically students learn best when they feel secure in their food and when they are not experiencing a thought of where will my next meal come from and what will i face when i go home and will the be food at home connect they come to school for the meal, many of the students in my district do. If we are talking about making them academically successful, physically successful, emotionally successful and mentally successful Food Security place a large role in the Bigger Picture of that. There are a lot of different ways. There is stigmatization to thehe academic while beans, physical wellbeing, being healthy enough to be in the classroom and to not miss the class for doctors abutments or hospitalizations or anything like that. Food integrity plays such a Important Role in the larger picture and we oftentimes look leat the secondary thing but is absolutely not and its a primary concern among people in my district because ive heard talking points today about a booming economy. I live, born, raised and lived my adult life in the third Congressional District of West Virginia but we are one of the poorest Congressional Districts in the nation and i appear to tell you that in my rural area the economy is not booming and the kids need this help. We talk about bootstraps, these are bootstraps for these kids. Is the help they need. Thank you. My time is expired. I yield back. Thank you. Thank you, chairwoman. I went out like to recognize Ranking Member cloud for five minutes of questioning. Thank you, mr. Chairman. If iyi could just start off by saying missus sullivan into the rest off you, i mentioned i appreciate you being here and ms. Sullivan i want to specifically say i appreciate you being here and i hopeop you dont feel shame. It is why it is they are and why the program is there. I do think it takes courage to be here today to tell your story. I do think honestly, i realize in the polarized environment from what you see on tvot a lot of times people walk into these situations with entrenched positions but there are those of us were working to find a way to preserve this program for those who really need it while also finding that nexus where we can deal with issues to streamline and make it more efficient. I think that is a good, honest conversation to have. This is a little wonky and we just heard that this rule change for snap is is that right or is that could you clarify the connection because its not direct as it is being . Sure. The rule being discussed is a change to snap, not to the School Lunch Program. Av the snap eligibility standards asset and federal law have been mentioned and you cannot have income over 130 of federal Poverty Level and you cannot have liquid Assets Available to you, cash, recreational vehicles, is that you could quickly liquidate to cash in excess of 2250. The broadbased category eligibility loophole does away with that asset task and raises that income threshold to up to two 100 and most dates and up to 185 or 165 in other states. Where the school lunch comes into play is that if you are on snap and you are automatically eligible for school lunch with in application andpp that is wht some folks are talking about that there is a group of students who may have to apply with the school lunch application and i grabbed on here from the state of maine and it is a one page and they may have to applyl to that application but they will still maintain their eligibility but it just wont be automatic. It was also stated that a Million People would lose snap benefits and couldnt find the difference between losing eligibility versus losing benefits. Sure, right now there are approximately finally people who are ineligible by federal law standards and when this loophole is closed and broadbased categorical eligibility that pathway is closed it will go back to categorical eligibility. Wif you are actually receivinga welfare benefit you will still be automatically eligible for food stamps. Hithat is not changing. The only thing that is changing is you cant get this brochure handed to you and thus getting rid of the test and increasing the income limits for that piece will go away. So then we will go back to the federal standards that are in law that Congress Passed of bota income and asset levels. To rephrase that youre basically saying the executive branch is working to realign regulations with the stated will of congress as fast and long . That is correct. Bbc rule was created entirely through regulation and at the time the Clinton Administration even acknowledged that the intent was to expand this to people who are actually getting a benefit, not just receiving a marginal funded brochure and they acknowledged that at thes time but it is taken on a life of its own and its 42 states are using itlk and millions of folks who come in through that pathway. This rule is simply reorienting the eligibility policy at the practical level on the ground with what Congress Passed in l law. Okay. So constitutionally the proper way to fix this would be for congress to act if it wants to change its a law. Absolutely. I mentioned in my remarks that if you want to give everyone in the country food to stamps you have the authority to do that, passed the law and get it signed into law and that can certainly take effect but as the law stands right now this regulations sits squarely itside of that and its incumbent on the administration to crack that. Thank you. I go backio. I will use that five seconds. Ms. Davis, okay, basically whats going on is they want to make a uniform 2002 at a 50dollar asset test for the entire United Statess and they want to say no state can raise the income level beyond 130 of the poverty line which is uniform for thehe entire United States. Can you comment on that and why states would actually want to raise the income levels and asset test depending on what part of the country you live on . New york city versus West Virginia for instance. Yes, thank you. First, it is easy to focus on things like, you know, a brochure that gets you onto snap which isnt true. Receiving a brochure guarantees no one snap benefits. Anyone coming in the broadbased categorical eligibility still has to go through an interview and they still have to document their income and comply with all of the other program requirements. There are indeed, many people who might be categorically eligible for snap but their net incomes are too high to get a benefits. Congress intended to give the states flexibility during welfare reform and that is well documented. They also intended to encourage work and to encourage efficiency across programs, two things broadbased category of gradual eligible does very well. One thing that is important to understand with millionaires and people with airplanes is that this policy helps working poor families with children who have incomes modestly above 130 of poverty, gross incomes, before deductions for things like high housing costs, high childcare costs, high outofpocket medicare costs and are deducted. Only point to percent as snap benefits are still going to be but with net after those suction incomes about above 130 of poverty so its not an automatic gateway and it isnt a policy benefiting millionaires and it supports and encourages work. As you know, housing costs in boston are very different from housing costs in great falls, montana where i am from butte child costs are high everywhere and many states care for an event can call cost more per s year than instate tuition for college. States need this flex ability and it helps them make work pay for their population. Thank you. I will now recognize congresswoman porter for five minutes of questioning. R thank you very much, mr. Chairman. How much do you pay each month for electricity and how often . How often . You know, i could get my phone out and check exactly but its probably could you . Its probably 180 200 a month depending on what lights the kids live on. Tell me about your children. I have three children. What ages . One is in kindergarten. And the other two younger . Correct. How much and how often do you pay for [inaudible] . Once every four years when see subject chart comes to clean it out. How much and how often to pay for Health Insurance . Could you repeat that . How much and how often to pay for Homeowners Insurance . Lets see, once a year, i purchased that policy. How many hours did you work last week . I dont know. What is your hourly rate do you i dont want to invade your privacy but do know your hourly rate of pay . As you sit here today. Yes, maam. I know how much i get paid. Hourly . I do not get paid hourly. But you are [inaudible] do you know right now what does this have to do with the broadbased category jewel eligibility . I get to ask the questions with all due respect and you can answer them or refuse to answer them. It is your prerogative. Sewhat is do you know your gross pay for deductions . I do. Do know what day of the week your paycheck is received on . Yes, i do. What date is that . Im not going to answer that. Lets go through, do you know whether do you have any certificates of deposit . I know my financial situation quite well. How about your account number or your ira . 401k . My account number . No, i dont have that handy but i could get it in about 11 seconds. Ticktock. I will wait. I will be respectful and keep my phone in my pocket as we are asked to do. The reason i am asking these things is i want to show you what the state of maines application for food supplement looks like. This is for snap. Yes, maam, iran that program for four years. R this is a six page application for snap. I asked you a handful of these questions to fill all this out there are so many pages im dropping them. I apologize. This is a handful of what you have to fill out, this is information that is much moreat extensive than for example, in order to provide my congressional Financial Disclosures as a member of the house of representatives to the american public. Are you aware let me ask you, does the research what does tthe research say about what happens when you increase the paperwork and information on applications for folks on snap or cash benefits . Im not sure what research you are referring to. The Research Conducted by folks like [inaudible] or about what happens with the paperwork applications burden longer. What happens to eligibility . I can tell you my experience in maine administering the program was that the vast majority of applications were completed online or on the telephone, not through paper application and we actually under my watch, undertook a process to streamline that even further so that it would be easy for folks to get on the computer. We se easy for folks to get on the computer. We set up kiosks right in the regional offices where we provided computers and support for people are those offices open a night or we can . Yes. With night and weekend hours. We change or staff the rotation to give to knights of the where they stayed open. Thats really important. With that i will yield back. Thank you, congresswoman. Ms. Davis, do you want to comment on the application forms . What type of burden does that place on applicants depending on the length of the questioning and the forms . A number of studies show the number of questions, the longer form, the less likely people are to get to the process. Theyre been several points today about how many of the kids who will lose direct certification through snapple still be eligible by filing an application. If eby you talk to any School District around the country, they will tell you that that is the challenge. In this case usda itself has admitted they do not have a plan to inform those impacted and to reach out to them to let them know the kids will be an eligible, or will be eligible. For families that are losing staff and the kids are dropping at a free meals, they may assume they are no longer eligible. Paperwork complexity,ki human error, stigma, theres so many barriers. And because so many kids fall through the cracks and those paper applications are not getting done actually were all, congresst mandated the states to do direct certification between s. N. A. P. In school meals because its more accurate, more efficient and is more effective for catching those kids. Thank you, this davis. Without objection cognizance our veins shall be permitted to join the subcommittee and to recognize for questioning witnesses later. Right now i recognize mr. Comer. Thank you, mr. Chairman. My questions are going to be centered around the ablebodied rule. Without dependence for mr. Adolphsen, i apologize for the questions you got earlier. I dont know what the purpose of those were, but, unfortunately, the civility and common sense in congress is sometimes and a downward spiral here, doesnt help when the speaker of the house reps up the state of union right behind the president after he gets his remarks, but thats for another day. Thats for another day. Anyone disagrees with that we can debate thatu here, but lets get back to whats important, and thats governing. Before the december 2019 usta rule on work requirements, however state taking advantage of the waiver systems as it relates to work requirements for ablebodied adults without dependence . Thank you. On the avon rule, what states were doing is a were taking counties in various areas that had very low unemployment. They were grouping them with other unrelated county that had high unemployment, higher unemployment and getting permission way of those work requirements across the board, in california for example a wide waiver even among counties was two and three percent unemployment. How many states werewaving the work requirements . More than 30 depending on what time you pick. Out of the usta rule seek to clarify and update work requirements for ablebodied adults without dependence . For those 18 to 49yearold, we have a lot of the adults with no kids, what the rule does is it simply changes the criteria to be more aligned with federal law which says that an area that has high unemployment can receive a waiver so what the rule does very generally is it makes sure that those waivers can only apply in specific areasthat actually do have an economic depression or downturn. During your term with the Maine Department of health and Human Services how significant was the implementation of work requirements . From an administrative perspective it was no more difficult and really any of the changes that we often receive from our legislature through regulation. We did some work to make sure that folds had a place to go to education and training. If they chose to do that, and we work in our department of labor to set up those Career Center one stops and those kinds of things. Museum where the implementation of work requirements could have actually helped s. N. A. P. Recipients . Absolutely, weve seenthat in states across the country. Loretta, mississippi, arkansas come to mind. We can study their following each individual person who work requirements applied to. Income has more than doubled in a year. For went back to work in hundredsof Different Industries and theyre doing much better now, earning more and enough to replace a benefit and more. Could you explain how usta december 2019 work requirement rule seeks to ensure that recipients achieve selfsufficiency . The bottom line is we got one of the greatest economies that we had in decades and we have nearly 7 million open jobs and the usta look at these waivers and said we need these folks, ablebodied and to get into these jobs. Off the sidelines and into the workforce. It helps them and helps our economy. At exactly right and the biggest complaint i hear from job creators and Business Owners in my district throughout kentucky is the fact that they cannot expand their business. Theyre not going to invest Additional Capital because they dont have confidence that they can feel the open positions that would be created and we already have in my district which is a poor district, tens of thousand of jobs open right now. And if you hold the people, the working people in my district and whether you support work requirements, for ablebodied adults, that receive any type of welfare benefit, that would pull close to 100 percent. So this is something i appreciate the administration trying to adopt and anything i can do to see that this happens, im certainly going to do it because thats what the people in my district wantwith that ideal back the balance of my time. Miss toney, counties provide meals to students in West Virginia and the categorical eligibility area what is thecost of letting the kids go hungry instead . Were talking about Human Capital and talking about actual people. Where not talking about data on a spreadsheet or were not numbercrunching. The cost is immense area and if we let these kids go hungry we are playing reckless with their wellbeing and their future as well because honestly this is the future of our country and we are leading by example read academically these need this nourishment for their brains to be able to focus and be attentive in class and i outlined in my Opening Statement if they are not attentive in class and unfocused, they fall behind which leads to behavior issues and we know the statistics on children who fall behind in class and who are subject to behavior issues and how that affects them in their longterm longevity in the school system, not to mention the Emotional Wellbeing and i am proud of my district for what weve done with our universal feeding program because we have removed a lot of the stigmatization that surrounds students that can afford lunch for students who may be on a free or reduced lunch plan. However, that is not, that is the exception and that is not the rule. We really have to remember that we are looking at people, we are not looking at numbers on the spreadsheet. That question was from the West Virginia chamber of commerce now id like to recognize congresswoman suite 45 minutes of questioning. Thank you chairman so much for your leadership and having to hear in on a critical issue in our country. Mister sullivan, yesterday one of my residents texted me speak the truth, even if your voice shakes and i just want you to know i appreciated you speaking up. You spoke about something that i think is really important and as a former community organizer, one of the things we do is make sure that we bring people in the room that cant be in the room and when you spoke up you did that so thank you so much. I want to ask a question for all of you. Do you think children can learn if they are hungry . Absolutely not. I think if you ask any teacher in this country or any parent, kids cant come to school hungry to learn if they are just plain hungry and we do a survey of teachers every year and what we find is that three out of four teachers say that they regularly teach kids are coming to school hungry. And the data bearsthat out to. Yes, sir no what the principals have said. Absolutely area that everybody has been hungry at one point in their life regardless of eight and its difficult to focus if you are an adult but much more so if you are a young child that six years old and trying to figure out whats going on in class and if you dont have a stable meal in your belly when you come into school it makes it extremely difficult i would even argue that even if it is, if it affects many students or just one child in your class as a teacher, miss toney can explain it takes one child that hungry that disrupts the class that affects all of the students in the class. Im sorry , but yes, sir no. Unequivocally number. Hunger is painful and students cannot bear that burden. How about you . Can children learn if they are hungry, yes, sir no. Not my kindergartner. Theres been a lot of discussion about assistance, public assistance and so forth and this kind of trying to prevent fraud. This comes up and i want to tell you all, in downtown detroit rightnow i have the thirdCongressional District. They , the politicians, the elected folks there decided to shift 400 million away from school aid to an adult playground downtown, its a hockey stadium. 400 million away from School Aid Fund into a profit hockey stadium for a billiondollar development. A billionaire was building it. In exchange, the promise was to qualified to be able to say give them the green light to do it is to hire 50 percent local residents to develop the 39 that they got for a dollar in downtown detroit read at the end they didnt do any of those things. Broken promises. You think thats fraud . Yes, sir no. I dont know that im qualified to speak. Does that sound like fraud to you that they took public dollars, 400 million away from school aid in exchange for promises they made that they were going todo to benefit the whole community because they subsidize their stadium. I can say that the promise broken and if we did that at our school if you had Food Assistance they would makeyou pay. It sounds like fraud to me. It sounds like immoral behavior. How about you, sir. Yes maam, sounds like fraud to me. Do you know what we could have done with the 400 million, not only feed children but we could have funded 218 new teachers in the Detroit Public School system where we had a deficit of 200 teachers before the school year began. Thats what were doing. But we do not talk about then as committing fraud. When moms accidentally dont bring in their wage stuff, i get calls all the time, i didnt submit the documents in time, and you help me or this was off. What they were doing to asset test on a car they got for their mother. All of that. Theyre deeming its fraud where a company that is making billions of dollars and selling concert tickets, everything. Literally high schools in my district, you can see it from the stadium. Down the street from the stadium. We had to shut down the drinking fountains of the water is contaminated. These are the things that we are doing. We are shifting away these public dollars that could be used to feed children because they cannot learn if there hungry. But we dont call that fraud. We call the mother trying to feed her children and do Everything Possible to do it and sometimes, food , not for coats. Not a membership to a golf course. It is food for your children, food for your family. It is food not tired of us treating them completely differently, especially when its a billiondollar development that just makes more money off the backs of our kids. You mister chairman and i hopeyou continue to speak truth, i think its critically important. Congresswomanand now recognize punishment had 45 minutes of questioning. Thank you mister chair. Mister sullivan, i was struck by your testimony, particularly this line. Shall i revert to the day when i would casually pass up an opportunity to eat today so that my children have a better chance of eating tomorrow . If you dont mind, could you speak about times in your life that you may have had to do that . Yes, thank you and i do hope other members of the committee have the time and opportunity to read through my fullwritten testimony. It was achallenge for me. It forces me to relive these very traumatic experiences and honestly i think some of it ive blocked out to the bestof my ability. And thats again, the reality of what so many of us deal with. You know, there have been those times when ive looked, i prepared the best of what i could and im a great cook. And ive had to ration out food. And as i rationed it out, im looking at the plate of one child and the other based on age and where they are and what i feel they need for nourishment was again, ratcheting up this food. And then it gets to me and of course as a parent you look your and put yourself last and thats not singular to me. Its what we do as parents, as providers so there have been on numerous occasions, s. N. A. P. Has come into my life at times of need and then ive been able to walk away. Ive been sometimes whats called a charter, ive been on and off the program and its done when its been intended to do but as i said, as parents there is shame associated with it when we are walking into the spaces where basically the police are trying to keep us from accessing these programs that are intended to assist us and we looked at as a fraud before somebody in need. And i cant see enough to what that does to a persons , of course we can imagine and envision what physically that does a person mentally when it does to a parent whose again just trying to providethe best for their children. Thank you for sharing such a personal story. Mister adolphsen Mister Sullivan came to you and she said. Hundred 40 percent of federal poverty line and she told you herstory, would you believe that she should get food stamps . Yes, sir no . I would follow the eligibility standards. If she said im having to skip meals and my kids are otherwise my kids would go hungry , and i need this and you believed it to be true, but its hundred 40 percent over the federal poverty line you would say no, she doesnt qualify. Personally, i would help. While you administrating name, im saying would these affect the case if someone came to you that they were hundred 40 percent would you say yes, sir would they say no . With bbc she would she would be almost eligible so i would say yes but under the federal law, she would be ineligible. So the trumpet ministration is doing is trying to make her ineligible and you would support that, you would thinkthat someone like Linda Sullivan should get food stamps. I want to be clear because i saw your testimony of private planes and all that, lets be honest here. Thats not what were talking about. Were talking about with someone like Mister Sullivan with 100 for 40 percent of poverty line toget food stamps. If youwant to say that she shouldnt , we took an honest answer and we could just have a difference of values but lets be very clear about the position. Im being honest and the broadbased categorical eligibility loophole thats being close by this rule, as i mentioned in my testimony, is much more about assets than income. And you heard from several testimonies that income is the smaller piece of this particular rule. And im being completely honest about what this rule does. Let me say, theres one individual determining. If i could finish, butwith this rule say the federal government . Ever million dollars. exactly. It depends on the final. So youre basically saying for two to 3 billion you dont know how much it would say which is less than one percent of our Defense Budget and would deprive millions of missed sullivans children of food. Just so we have our priorities, that is ethically your followthrough argument for this committee. This is about reserving the resources for those eligibleby federal law. Which is one percent of our Defense Budget that comprises probably 1 Million People and Mister Sullivan of food im not prepared to discuss the Defense Budget at this foodstamp hearing. Thank you. I now recognize congressman grossman for five minutes of questioning. I kind of want to go over this one more time, could you one more time give us an overview of thiscategorical eligibility . And how it came about. Certainly, so categorical eligibility is allowed in the federal foodstamp law. It says you are receiving a welfare benefit, you are automatically eligible to be enrolled in the Food Stamp Program. That was congresses effort to cut down on administrative and applicant burden, fine. What happened was the Clinton Administration came in and they expanded that through broadbased categorical eligibility. Says a welfare benefit can be as simple as getting a brochure, you dont have to get an actual benefit from this other Welfare Program. And by doing that, the income limit is then raise from 130 of the federal Poverty Level up to 200 percent of the federal Poverty Level and the acid test is completely eliminated. Through that. You know off the top of the head what federal poverty is mark. Its in the mid30,000 range. And asset tests just like on other things means you can be a millionaire and eligible for the program. It ranges widely. We know from usda data that half of these individuals have more than 20,000 in liquid assets area. Is there any downside you can think of putting people on the Lunch Program . Other than just cost area. Any downside to putting people on the School Lunch Program after mark as long as it complies with the standards that Congress Sets for theprogram, i see no problem with it. Mister beltran, i wonder if you could comment on your experience. When ive seen with the program has been very successful. In our school, we have about 57 percent of our students are coming from direct certification. Which means you qualify for a s. N. A. P. Benefit from a number of things including household income. What weve seen and since weve been participating in the cep program is that it has had a direct impact in the amount of meals that have served in 1415 before the wii had the program we had 60 percent participation in the meals that we had offered and then all the way up to this year we had 96 percent participation so even though we did have free and reduced lunch applications in the past, thats since the qualify for a free or reduced meal, now we see a higher participation and as a result , a direct impact on our student behavior issues. When i was trying to get, mister adolphsen is sometimes its said that when you give morebenefits , it kind of affects the parents because they have less responsibility for their children. I guess ill put it that way. And its good if you have more i guess by in on your childrens upbringing. You see any of that or, does that argument appeal to you at all. The parents of children i certainly want to be involved in their operating and taking care of them. I think what were talking about is folks who are on adolphsen through bb ce, they ought to have incomes that are in excess of the federal limit that was set or they have resources that are available to them to take care of themselves and their families without the benefit. I guess what im trying to get, or their benefits to giving parents responsibility other than just monetary benefits. To the federal government, i understand running almost 1 trillion a year deficit so i dont mean to demise the cost savings, we should always be looking for cost savings you read about kind of acting parents as the government assumes more and more of that parental role. Absolutely. I dont think anyone would disagree that all the literature supports that active involvement in their childrens lives. By the parents is critical to their success. Okay. Ill yield the remainder of my time. I think that the trillion dollar deficit was caused by the 20 17th ask lawadded almost 1 trillion deficit. Its not a couple billion dollars due to snap benefits. With regard to mister penn, can you please comment on what this change is going to do to the administration of your school. In wisconsin, in sheboygan. We have like i said in my opening testimony we have one of the lowest percentages of unemployment in the country and we are very proud of that area however, a lot of our parents are not accessing that same economy and when we talk about jobs i think its fair to mention that there is a difference in the quality of jobs or the pay that parents are eligible for. Certainly there are jobs that can provide a family wage and some cannot which force parents to make a decision between eating there for your child or picking up a second job and trying to work that. As far as the administration in our school we talk frequently about the stigma that some of our parents and students have about participating in the program. Before we were able tooffer this to everybody , our staff was felt it was comfortable to request breakfast in the classroom byhaving some students want another student eat. By doing this and for dissipating in the cepprogram directly is a result. And what that means is that now we can offer those breakfasts in the classroom to all of our students and that is something that our teachers have extreme buyin in and they see the value and they can see the benefit. Our data proves that we are very happy with this program and roll this back would force us again top places where we are going to have to get some food to some students and others would not, simply because their parents missed a box on an eligibility form. That sounds crazy to me. I was woman, can you please educate us with your questions. First mister chairman, id like in to enter into the record this unanimous consent to submit the long form snap benefits from the Main Department of health and Human Services referenced five like holly presented porter. Without objection, so order. You again for thishearing, people to our witnesses for sharing. Your devastating testimony, im really just having a hard time here because just the stereotyping and the criminalizing and identifying of the poor, being poor is not acharacter flaw. There but for the grace of god go allus. Hardship does notdiscriminate. It is transcendent. And im so tired of my colleagues from the other side, we had a hearing in another committee about student debt and the impact of this 1. 6 trillion crisis on credit reports and in that hearing they made assumptions about well, if you cant afford it, dont take up alone when we have veterans who aredefaulting on student loans. Multiple deployments area stop stereotyping who is struggling because under this administration, more people are struggling than ever before because Donald J Trump if nothing else is an equal opportunity offender and abuser. This is child abuse, thats it cruelty is the point and so far as im concerned, this administration has blood on their hands because of a humanitarian crisis at the border, because of money allocated but not released to puerto rico. Because of the scourge of Public Health, the Public Health crisis and violence is gun violence that they refused to act on and now harming children area the cruelty is the point. And then, the occupants of this white house in a socalled state of the Union Address when your stories tell the truth of the state of our union a socalled state of the Union Address which turned into a Divisive Campaign rally speech and there are so many outright bases cranes i can basic barely keep up but he has the nerve to then invoke god and faith and to express a newfound interest in ensuring quote, that every baby has the best chance to thrive and grow. And to remind us that every human life is a sacred gift from god. Well, the outpatient universality has robbed me of my hair but it has not robbed me of my memory and i spent plenty of time in sunday school and inmatthew 2535 , this administration has forgotten about the least of these. So this is an ironic assertion to come from this administration. Putting more than 3 million individuals, pushing them off of snap including more than 1 million children. In massachusetts more than 100,000 people stand to lose access to benefits including 72,000 children. Its very apropos during this time of year to quote doctor king who doesnt get quoted enough is greta. She said starting a child is violence. Punishing a mother and her family is violence. And contempt for poverty is violence read let me be clear, this administrations attack on s. N. A. P. Is nothing more than violence waged on the most vulnerable among us. Our children, the elderly individuals with disability, the poor and the sick. So by show of hands, how many of our panelists believe that some administration eligibility changes to the s. N. A. P. Program will ensure that our children have the resources they need to thrive and to grow, by show of hands . Who believes these changes will ensure that . So it appears that most of us are not fooled and once again as is always the case with this administration the cruelty is the point. So lets unpack a real impact of the Trump Administrations proposed changes will have on children and im running out of time we spoke it already about the destabilizing effects of this learning on health holistically but missed sullivan and miss davis ifyou would the longterm effects , not just the short term which immediately shows up at the longterm effects of Food Insecurity. Of starving a child. Yes, and i have again lived experience that ive been a list with my children, experienced hunger during those times and i have children who have been held back in school and i can the personal trauma but there are public costs associated with this, children repeating grades. The cost to the medical, for medical expenses to physical fallout and i talked about what that does to a parent mentally its very traumatizing and our children feel that and they live that even though we try our best to protect them from the red. Thank you. Thank you congresswoman presley. Congressman, you are recognized for five minutes. Thank you mister chairman. Thank you all for your testimony. Very very muchappreciated. You know, when im thinking about these new rules that the Trump Administrationhas rolled out , i was reminded, i went back to try to find this and mace was our attorney general one point under president reagan. Made a comment or he said that people go to soup kitchens because the food is free and thats easier than paying for it. We just thought it was a convenience. And i remember the outcry at that time. The callousness of that comment and perspective on things. People dont reach for these benefits or take advantage of the opportunity to access snap benefits because its just more convenient. And going to a restaurant or paying for it at their supermarket, they go because they have a desperate need for it. And its a offensive to suggest either explicitly as enemies did 30 years ago or to suggest implicitly by rolling out this kind of a new policy. That thats the case. I bring to this discussion a conviction that our schools are tremendous opportunity to respond to the needs of children across the country both in terms of nutrition which is what we are speaking to today and help. On a very strong proponent and i know many of my colleagues argue area for bolstering schoolbased health centers. But obviously that works in concert with making sure that nutrition is available to young people for all the reasons that youve discussed and discussed very powerfully. I thank you for that testimony. So i wanted to ask kind of a more open ended question area and whoever wants to answeris invited to do so. That is does america know that we are hungry . Its incredible to me that so many millions of americans including millions of children are going to bed hungry every night in this country of tremendous wealth. Now, i know that people are charitable and their generous. You look at food drives, you look at the food banks across the country. So do we not know that we are going hungry . In this country and mark are we hiding it away . I mean, hearings like this one bring momentary focus to the question, but the more you pull back the curtain on this data and the more unbelievable it is, so just that because you all are testifying and operating in place where theres that heightened awareness and sensitivity. To this issue but you must grant your head from time to time and just wonder how is it that we dont bring this more into the open and addresses in amore direct fashion. So i invite anybody to respond to that area. Thank you, thats a fascinating question and i think those of us on the front lines are aware. Unfortunately, if you have never experienced Food Insecurity or been around someone who is experiencing Food Insecurity uses from a point of privilege and its hard to look past that for some of america , im afraid so often theres another piece to this congressman and its when we are constantly being bombarded with this administrations talking points of area types and people are poor , people are lazy to read we are attacking them as a person. We are attacking their dignity and when we are constantly, when america is bombarded by those talking points itpermeates our culture. Weknow better. The panelists at this table know better. We work on the front lines in the trenches with thisissue every day or we have experienced it firsthand. Unfortunately we have a delta client were overcome with some of the other issues bombarded the American People and places of privilege that somepeople may come from. I think its downright shameful that we ignore this fact is going on and i think if youre not seeing it every single day and you understand theeffects it has on our future , its scary. Its scary and i think the problem is they and i feel like its kind of the overwhelming sense so we try to bury it away and pretend we dont see it. I would agree, i think if you are a parent and i work with a lot of parents in this situation, they all want whats best for their kids. Ive never met a parent in my years of education that i have ever seen where they want their kid to do poor or they dont want them to be successful in the future. All the parents i have ever met or my experience ive been wanting their kids to be better they look for opportunities not because its convenient for them but because they need help and i feel like my responsibility as a leader of a school and if thats theopportunity i have to help , thats what im going to do. Thanks for your testimony and in yielding back i would say that i see in baltimore every daytheres a hidden america , completely hidden away and its cloaked in poverty and hunger and despair and frustration that then leads to violence and somehow we have found a way collectively in this country to close that door and turn our eyes away from. And its, it will haunt us as a nation and i want to thank you for convening the hearing to bring some light to this issue. I hope we can continue the focus and again, i want to thank the panelists for your testimony and idealsthat. Thank you everybody. Ithink what weve seen today is that s. N. A. P. Works. S. N. A. P. Helps people. It helps adults, it helps children. It helps educators, it helps the economy. It has the lowest fraud rate of practically any Government Program so whats the point . Whats the real point going on here behind trying to cut back the eligibility requirements . I think its politics. I think its politics. Its an effort to show that we are being taught on poor people. And in doing so, hoping they correct theirways. They work harder, that they freeload less. And that may be better people area but actually, the people who utilize these benefits are just like you and me. And in fact, i was one of those people. At the end of the day, what we do with s. N. A. P. Defines who we are in the country. And to donald trump, i would just say do not go forward with this rule. Do not attack our children. As the late great Karen Cummings said, we are better than this area id like now finally recognized congressman connolly for five minutes ofquestioning. Thank you mister chairman. Forgive me for being in and out of this hearing but i had other commitments this morning but i had one of our own yesterday on the impact of moving to a chain api on poverty programs across the board. Ms. Davis, one of the characteristics as i understand it s. N. A. P. Is it gives some flexibility at the statewide level. Could you explain that mark. Absolutely. One of the reasons why congress has reaffirmed broadbased categorical eligibility several times over the past 20 years is recognizing that states have differentcircumstances. A cost of housing is different in la and it is in southWest Virginia. Childcare costs may curb one thing that allstate value that iris has reinforced is the need to help support families as they work their way out of poverty i being able to increase their earnings and to accumulate modest assets. Research shows that if families are able to build assets, they are less likely to be plunged deeper into poverty and deeper into the safety net i want misstep. So the states are given the flexibility, the cognizance of delivering differences, big difference between living in birmingham alabama and living in fairfax virginia. Absolutely. Or new york city. And the Program Gives them flexibility what happens if the new comedy trumpet ministration policy as proposed would go into effect withrespect to that flex. I think it would be very burdensome. That is why. But with the flexibly changed. The flexibly were taking away, if you look at the 183,000comments that made it on this rule , you will see hundreds from different state agencies, local organizations and the like talking about how devastating it will be for communities, families , for schools and for others in this space and the state will incur millions of dollars in cost into retrofit their determinations systems to train employees and all of the other pieces that come with limiting a changeof this magnitude. So just looking at who could be affected by this, as i understand it 3. 1 million families with kids could be affected. Could actually have the eligibility for s. N. A. P. Affected if this regulation or change in regulations work to go into effect, that a large number area. It is very significant, 3 Million People who, more than 2 million of whom are families of children, the rest seniors and individuals with disabilities losing snap when obviously impact those families significantly leading to a Higher Health care costs or communities would also lose out because as the chairman and talked about earlier, s. N. A. P. Has a multiplier effect. Those dollars getspent immediately, 80 percentof s. N. A. P. Is spent in the first few weeks. And they support farmers , truckers, Grocery Store jobs and dollars in the community so there is this ripple effect. Its a good point you make as i remember meeting with folks in rural virginia talking about this several years ago and i was shocked when they told me that the Grocery Store in their community, the only one they got, 60 percent of their business is. So if you make fewer people eligible, is not only a bad thing for people in terms of their nutrition and the health of their kids, but in terms of local economy, you could drive Grocery Stores or food chains out of business, frankly if you really materially affect s. N. A. P. Eligibility. That impact would be widespread and felt throughout the community and we hear time and again that in areas that havent seen a robust recovery where resources are limited, Grocery Stores stagger staffing to account for when benefits are being loaded up on the cards because that is when the shopping occurs and tbl we affirmed recently that cbo reaffirmed recently that as far stimulus is concerned s. N. A. P. As one off the biggest banks for the buck, because those funds are spent immediately, they go into the economy and help create and maintain jobs, Economic Activity and support industries for manufacturing to tracking to growing. , well, i want to thank the chairman crowley this hearing. Its the second in our series. In terms of real impacts on real people, fellow americans and their kids, and so i think there is real value in trying to highlight this issue and what you think all of you for joining us today and thank you, mr. Chairman, for having this hearing. Thank you, congressman. Would like to thank the witnesses for the testimony today. Without objection all members will have five days within which to submit additional written questions for the witnesses to the chair. Those will be forwarded to the witnesses for responses. I asked eyewitnesses to please respond as probably as you are able. This hearing is adjourned. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] today senator Bernie Sanders speaks to supporters at a get out the early vote rally on the university of nevada campus in las vegas. Early voting for the nevada caucus and today with the caucus on saturday february 22. Watch live today at 5 30 p. M. Eastern on cspan2, online at cspan. Org or listen live on the free cspan radio app. Theres debate took place between my husband and her husband. They believed in what it was but they would never enemies. They were friends and they would walk off the floor how may times did we see them slot each others back and go laughing all the way out the floor. Its a different time and im sad about that. How do you remember . John himself said he didnt like teddy very much when he first met in turkey said i really may be saw a lot of myself in it. But he said he grew to respect him. They were both on the Armed Services committee and he saw in teddy and teddy saw john real patriotism, love of his country, and even though they came at it from a different place, a both new that they cared about the country and they loved it. They just developed a bond and they found this little nuggets of Common Ground where they could Work Together. Tonight on cspan senator kaine the winter of senator john mccain, in vicki kennedy, the widow of senator Edward Kennedy discussed their husbands careers and legacies in a conversation about Public Service at the Kennedy School of government at Harvard University. Next a look at how the customs and Border Protection agency uses facial recognition in Biometrics Technology to identify people coming to u. S. Pirg House Homeland Security Committee Heard from john wagner the customs and Border Protections deputy executive assistant commissioner of field operations