week. >> hello, everyone, and welcome to the amanpour hour. here's where we're headed this week divine intervention, pope francis makes history weighing in on ethical ai at the g7 summit this hour, the risks and rewards of artificial intelligence with my panel of industry leaders. they don't get tired, they don't get distracted. they have no emotions terror about humans. >> what do you think happens managing misinformation in a critical election year, the ai has no yard rows, no regulation, no accountability, no, no liability. and how technology is changing, what it means to be human. these are all philosophical questions that touch upon the heart of what it means to be human. also, this hour, this is what parents do. they do, what they have to do. julia louis-dreyfus on confronting death and a giant parent in her new movie, tuesday my daughter in the film is really the parents to me, then from my archive, wide narendra modi's resounding rejection by india's most oppressed cost comes as no surprise and finally, the new documentary taking us behind the scenes hanes for the tearful final days of roger federer's tennis career these are the nerves i'm going to miss once i'm officially retired welcome to the program, everyone, i'm christiana amanpour in london. the risk and reward of artificial intelligence was high on the agenda at the g7 summit in italy late this week. but did pope francis steal the show? he's the first pontiff to speak at the summit. putting ethics at the part of the debate on artificial intelligence alongside leaders of the world's most advanced economies, pope francis, who was infamously deep faked wearing a big white, puffy jacket. once ai to serve humanity not to mutate into a 21st century, frankenstein's monster i we would condemn humanity to a future without hope if we took away people's ability to make decisions about themselves and their lives by dooming them to depend on the choices of machines this week on the program with cutting tech being showcased at the ai summit here in london, we begin with a conversation about what it means to be human and how technology is changing us for better or worse? >> in the studio with me around table of industry leaders and a range of views on the opportunities and threats of ai de, wendy hall is a distinguished computer scientist and a leading figure in the field of artificial intelligence, barrenness be banned. >> kidron is an advocate for children's rights online and a member of the uk house of lords the shake is an expert in artificial intelligence known for her work on the weaponization of ai, deep fakes, and the impact of ai on elections and misinformation. and connor leahy is the ceo of conjecture a company focused on ai safety. and its alignment with human values. so welcome to you all hi, heard recently, is that we should look at ai as are, as an enhancer, not a replacer. so first, i want to ask you, is that reasonable when we keep hearing these threats to our jobs, our existence, et cetera? >> it is absolutely reasonable. and i like to think of ai and them and us. the ais and us in enhancing what we can do is so many different ways and leading to breakthroughs in in words like healthcare, where this already seeing the breakthroughs. so the ai can read the scans, can diagnose much for quickly and more accurately than a human being leaving the doctors or nurses, the radiologists to think about the patient. we tend to go straight for the risks and they are there and we're going to talk about them. but i would like i just wanted to start by saying there are fantastic opportunities here for ai will enhance what we do changed the world of work, but it will create more jobs and then it destroys. >> that is something that not everybody agrees on the creating more than it destroys what we're gonna get into that. last week, last month, rather 13 current and former employees of openai ai wrote a letter talking about the benefits and the potential on precedent dented opportunities, but also the risk up unto the loss of control of autonomous ai systems potentially resulting in human extinction is that i mean, i can't grapple with that concept but you can do still think so. we asked you about it a year ago well, for me, it's often presented as is extremely exotic weird sci-fi scenario for me, it doesn't really feel like this weird of a scenario. >> if we assume that you can build ai systems that are as smart or smarter than humans that are better at business politics, science, and everything else. they don't get tired, they don't get distracted. they have no emotions. they don't care about humans. and we don't know how to control them what do you think happens it's like we will be out competed and very abruptly so and with very little care. do you have a solution i wish i did fundamentally, this is an unsolved problem both on the technical and the social level on a technical level, it's very important to understand that ai systems are not like normal software. they're not written line by line with code by human ai systems are more like grown, they more like huge piles of numbers that are made by big supercomputers. and he's numbers can do very amazing things. we don't really understand why or how they work or what's going on inside of their minds. and this should be disturbing to us, like this is a this is a problem. so currently we don't know both on tactical side, what's going on and the political side is like, how do we regulate this? how do we decide who gets to build these systems are not build systems like so on the regulation, be bankir drawn, you have worked very hard. you called ai the new frontier in the battle against abuse and you've had some success with your activism on privacy and california is now doing even more to try to regulate ai. do you think there are ways of regulating and what worries you well, let me start at the end with what worries me. >> i mean, what worries me is that we keep on going to technologists to solve the problem problem. and i think it's a societal problem. the technologists are rightly very excited about what they're doing and perhaps not looking really at the societal cost of what they're doing. i think my voice and this is to say, hang on a minute. we've got to use the tools of democracy. we got to decide what our highest situate beijing has. and i also think we take a little bit too much time talking about the frontier ai and not enough about domain specific ai. how is it? what that means is in education, we spend years training our teachers in specialist subjects. if we're going to replace them by bit then i'd like to know that software really works at an educational level for learning. and what we're finding is we're replacing them, but it doesn't work. >> i hate the rhetoric that says, we're replacing teachers without were not it's not about to happen anytime soon. >> but what if it happens in ten years? well, it won't be ten years. >> it's gotten zero for some ganim. it isn't as though there is this amount of work and activity which is now done by humans and our ai, which will obviously be integrated into more and more intelligent processes, is going to take that workload you have to have it looking at it from a business perspective, if you are more productive, if you have more ideas, if if you are able to be more profitable than why would you stop hiring no. it isn't a zero-sum game. and i want to echo what wendy's been saying because where you actually, the debate is so distorted, right? so there is so much disinformation around ai. i have worked on the risk because and specifically on synthetic content and deepfakes. but the debate is dominated by the existential risk argument. when you actually start talking to ai researchers about who actually believes that this is the biggest risk. >> and what evidence if you're going to make a huge claim like that? >> that all of humanity might be killed by artificial intelligence. >> what evidence is there to support that and you start digging in. >> there, isn't really much evidence apart from could happen. >> suppose the agree with date on this that we where there's the scare mongering with existential is that isn't the evidence it's hypothetical risk that we could get to at some point in the future, we'd like debate when but we aren't there yet and it's not going to happen with frontier models. it just isn't going to happen with fungible you started the conversation with is it going to enhance? yes, it's going to give kids better education if that's where we're actually seeing it, right. talking about enhancing some of the most exciting stuff drug development looking at engineering seeds that are drawn resistant when you think about climate change. and that is what's actually happening. >> so i think, i think i've been misunderstood here because i think we're all agreeing that we need to look at some of the near-term risk and not concentrate on that. so i think that was what i was saying. >> we come back just to be good and just to be clear, i think that what we're seeing in edtech is actually not enough concentration on whether it's helping children learn. we'll continue our conversation about search engines. ai alleged and dystopian coffee shops we'll be right back i voted buttons. that is like every meal kit it's like your generation has evolved past traditional political symbols there's room for everyone. yeah puke lane knows why taken. when your gut is that a balance? your body gives you signs? so if you're frustrated with occasional bloating gas or abdominal discomfort help stop the frustration and start taking a line every day aligned probiotic was specifically designed by gastroenterologists to help relieve your occasional just of upsets. you can enjoy life when you feel the signs, it's time to try align i have moderate to severe crohn's disease. now, they're sky rosie, things are looking afghans him control. macron's means everything to 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to finish my laundry. >> it's like one second. i use rinse. >> rinse to the company that will pick up wash, fold, and olivia laundry, dry cleaning at the touch of a button. >> i do not trust other people with my laundry rinse guarantees you're satisfaction. i've been using it for months now with no issues okay. let's watch this weight. i'm gonna do my laundry better, hurry. >> gun. i'll schedule, sign up for rinsing, rinse.com to get $20 off your first order cella cancer is it's hard, but st. joe has gotten us through it since june is hope. >> but every child diagnosed with cancer because the research is being shared all over the world this country has never been so divided. are you a licorice lover or hater? we had licorice.com have 50 plus gourmet flavors. had you flip out over, get some for yourself or girish lebur in your life, licorice lovers unite at licorice.com. >> i'm dr. sanjay gupta. >> and this is cnn back now with my ai panel, dame wendy hall, barrenness be banned, kidron nina shake, and connally. >> he let's let's continue the conversation with the big players in the ai arms race and how jobs are being impacted by emerging technologies. so we were talking about the good, the bad, and the distant future in the last segment and the now so what i want to ask you is what people really worry about. and a lot of people worry about jobs they do it's existential right? there is a new book out by an nyu professor about how algorithms can hijack the job and still the future by, according to her theory, if ai, two tools do a bad job, algorithms in hiring, firing, and recruiting can screen with bias, could filter out canada's by zip codes, right leading to some kind of discrimination by nationalities. they could be directed for male dominated pursuits. does that sound like fantasy or reality? >> i was literally reality already i talked to quite a lot of people in the industry, including a private events since go on i run a company and the number one question, i get from any decision-maker in any industry in private, not in public, and a private is how many people can i lay off if i buy your product? that's the only thing people care about. like there's a huge, huge appetite in the industry for laying off people, being more restricted to fawn hiring having plausible deniability about like how a decision was made so that they don't fall on a foul of anti-discriminatio n laws. all of these things are packaged together because that's where corporations do maximize profit. >> why are you not concerned about that well, because i think is dystopian future that we're not going to walk into blindly remember when everybody, everything was offshored, right? >> that was going to be the end of jobs in the uk and massive that stupid thing on the interview was rishi sunak for he said, well, if we get if we get this right, we get agi, nobody will need to work out a rubbish. what does because, well, is that a future we want i mean, we have some saying this and firms will have to have think about the social impact of what they're doing. and they will find, i am sure that if they take that approach people will not be buying their products are not be using their services because, because they won't get from the company what they need, because ai can't be trusted at the moment to get the right answers. >> can i make a giant leap to the weaponization, particularly in elections, we know that the russians and a whole new article, i mean russians, chinese, iranians, whoever influencing elections russians particularly have stepped up the weaponization of this information how do we protect against that? because we can see the results of it so first of all, i want to say that i'm all in on ai because i think what is happening here is a huge step change in which we're actually going to be able to production eyes and create intelligence. >> and i don't think that the risks are so much to do with the existential risk it's that we're talking about, or that nobody is going to have any work to do. and i wish we had more time to talk about that, but we do see risks comes down ultimately to people using technology to do bad things as they have done historically. and my first kind of deep entry point into what's happening now with the latest capabilities with our in official intel starting to emer in 2017. >> and no doubt this is a problem, but miss and disinformation has always been a problem for our society. >> it isn't just because of ai, it's also to do with how the internet ecosystem, the information system exponentially and cream actually, as now austin absolutely. and now you also have the ability to create synthetic contact at scale, including hijacking peoples, biometrics. so yes, this is a problem. >> however, there are already technical solutions including content provenance at transparency embedded in to the internet. >> but i think the bigger thing is this is a challenge for society with large, because this isn't only about ai, it's about being in an exponential age where technology is so quickly transforming society and economic reality and opportunity by the way, i'm half and i believe my mother grew up in village in the flotilla of the amylase and had no economic opportunity within one generation, my entire community in nepal has been transformed. thanks to your knowledge. but i want to ask you as a politician, right? the weaponization, first of all california, which has taken up what you did on the privacy law. >> now lawmakers are leading the way on ai i restrictions to try to protect jobs curtail use of personal data, fight this information legislation votes coming in august around the political space. >> what has to happen? you remember the house of lords either i think part of what we're talking about here is perhaps tech exception it's not necessarily the ai that is the problem. it's that the ai has no guardrails know regulation, no accountability, no, no liability. >> and the big people like sam altman, elon musk, that they're not helping or not helping. and i think that governments are actually shirking their responsibilities and meeting their meeting. oh, yes, let's have some voluntary codes here and let's be nicer to each other. and i think we can look at the last 20 years and saying actually the tech sector hasn't been that responsible to society. so i think that the tech exceptionalism is the problem, right? other than the technology, and i do want to just join in on some of the benefits because, you know, in the in the there's a group of women political leaders who all get together and kami extreme tanzania said we love it. we don't have any speech writers. we don't have any backup. we don't have anybody now we feel that we can actually contribute from the global south, from, from our situation on an even basis. so it's not that there's good and bad it's absolutely about how we put the guardrails and who is making the choices. >> so i wanted to ask you them because i tease the disk just opia and coffee shop. is it a reality or not? in this case, like an orwellian vision, there's a company called neuro spot which posted a video showing how we can use ai to monitor staff productivity and customer satisfaction in a coffee shop absolutely. >> receipt exponential technology with very little control idea of how to shape reality. if we only have techno optimism, if we only care about technology, not about human's, then we will see a future with the law of technology and very few humans and won't be good for people fundamentally technology alone does not make a good world. it is a tool with which you can craft a good world. if we just a lot of technology to proliferate with as fast as possible, then we will get technologies fast as possible and nothing i'm going to come to the human factor in our segment later on, we're going to continue this conversation later in the show with a look at how ai is changing our relationships and challenging what it means to be human. >> but first, from a funny vip to grieving mother julia louis-dreyfus tells me about her dramatic new movie tuesday. >> when we come back one and one i want to be working in which and to be with my family i want you to join your brothers in the rank. welcome to the show i just love being out there with you guys the only thing that matters to me get claw radar. >> now streaming exclusively on macs life is better with the credit god's on your side rewards, ones available to the view are now accessible to the many credit one bank get cashback awards. >> and liz large with the carousel, mytype patches. >> she's improving the look of her fungus damage now, while she sleeps only carousel patches worked for up to eight hours to reduce this coloration and thickness. >> now, that's what i call the utc kherson nighttime patches we've got you covered we are people living with a fib and over 400,000 of us have left blood thinners behind for life we've cut our stroke risk and said goodbye 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death playing zora, the mother of a terminally ill child, drivers, showcases for serious side as her character copes head-on with things that face us all. and yet we rarely talk about she and director dayana joined me ahead of the film's opening. julia louis-dreyfus and dayana oh, puh sich, welcome to the program thank you for having us both. >> thank you so much it's an extraordinary film. >> it's very weird. it needs to start off, but i just want to first start by asking you, julia, i guess people do type cost you a little bit with the comedy thing. but you've done clearly a number of films that aren't comedy. and i wondered what but this one attracted you well, what attracted me to this role was the the script of course, but the script in a very fantasy, magical realism kind of way explores issues of grief, death, dying, denial acceptance in addition to really exploring the bond between parent and child, all of those themes were, of course, they're very fundamental and they really appealed to me too. to explore from a story-telling point of view. and it should be noted that the, one of the main stars anyway, is a cgi giant morphing. parrots. so dayana, tell me about it because it's, it's kind of an unusual vehicle. the parent is death the grim reaper well, i really designed death the way that i did really through a sort of a process of deduction. >> i knew what the character was like. i knew what he needed to do in the film. i knew he needed to talk which parents are famous for, and i knew he needed to sing and dance until jokes. i felt also that his personality was sort of bird like this kind of caudally and friendly. and one moment and then at the turn of the head is frightening foreign, and dangerous. >> julia, your character, the mother, is trying to delay or deny the obvious, which is that your daughter choose de is dying and has an incurable disease. and i want to play just this clip, which is from the so-called bathrooms scene, where you're essentially telling her to get a grip weirdly let's let's just play it is the reality of the situation. >> isn't it this is what parents do. they do, what they have to do? >> okay. >> and it's good to be honest about that so you need to look reality in the eye instead of just getting angry at me about it. >> hey, you being serious write. >> gosh, the actress who plays tuesday is just so phenomenal, and that is, i mean, that's exactly the best line because there you are telling her to get a grip and she's the one die, just julia put that into context because you've spawn a whole load of lies just to get out of the house so that you don't have to confront your dying daughter? >> yes. exactly. i would say that the dysfunction that we begin the film with is that my daughter in the film is really the parents to me and and she's and i my character is in such pain and suffering that she is refuses to face the reality that her daughter is in and so she's making one decision after another that doesn't seem on its face is not. these are not nurturing decisions and which includes not working. she's overcome with depression. she's selling off everything that's in their house to make ends meet. nothing makes real rational sense. but i have to say, as someone who played the character, i certainly understand where she's coming from. and by the end of the film the tables will have turned in the sense that my character zora realizes that it's time for her to parent her child in the way that's necessary. and critical. and what about comedy? >> obviously you are burnt into everybody's minds with seinfeld, with v anymore. what is it that you like about comedy? because you obviously taking to this other stuff, like a duck to water. i mean, you're not type cost, but you are so good at the other as well. what do you like about it? >> well, what's not to like i mean, there's it's so it's such elevated experience to hear people laugh and i it's a blessing really. >> and so and it's something i've in my career have fallen into. >> these are the most of the jobs i've i've gotten in my career have been comedic so i love doing comedy. but having said that, i love doing drama and they're related on so in so many ways, and i'm what i really like is trying new things and trying and sinking my teeth into material that's unfamiliar and challenging and artistically satisfying. so that's what i'm looking for. i don't want to do anything derivative and certainly this film is not that guy. >> the oh, postage, julia louis-dreyfus. thank you so much, indeed. >> thank you. >> thank you and the film is out now and still to come on the program will tackle how technology is changing, what it means to be human nature on. >> but first from my archive, elections matter, how india's low-cost bose's slam the brakes on the nation's powerful nationalist prime minister narendra modi wednesday, cnn celebrated juneteenth with special performances by john legend. eddie lewbel, smokey robinson we still have a lot 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in delicious gummies, qizan life with dr. sanjay gupta. listen wherever you get your podcasts welcome back to the program. >> the world's biggest election this year has just concluded in india, where hindu nationalist prime minister narendra modi was sworn in for a rare third term, but he and everyone else was shocked by the results. >> the trimmed his sails india's infamous cost and class system was the deciding factor in the end, dalits, once known as untouchables, the very lowest and the most oppressed decided that modi had not done much to ease their poverty stricken and humiliating lives there are considered so unclean to the point where many people won't even touch them or share wards with them. their only crime being born at the bottom of an ancient hindu hierarchy that divides everyone along rigid social leinz to understand just how bad things off for them, we turn to the archives and my report from 1999 about the deplorable reality of some 200 million and the start of their organization into a political voting block that delivered india's shock results this time, sometimes smallest detail can reveal the whole picture these untouchable villagers are taking their shoes off, not because they want to but because they have to they're about to pass the upper caste neighbors sitting here in the shade. it's a daily ritual of petty humiliation the untouchables can only wear their shoes again when they reach their own part of town why are you guys always taking off your shoes and putting them back on again? >> now, we don't take our shoes off. will be fired from our jobs. >> i think i'm going to go into what we'd like to stand up to them. >> what do we normally don't have a chance have you ever been punished for anything here are the media punished us several times the red. we have to follow their feet two or three times dividends they have to fall at their feet when it's going. you have to lie on the ground and big forgiveness. >> oh, my goodness and. >> the discrimination continues at prayer untouchables aren't allowed to enter the hindu temple in this village. so the priest blesses them outside wake up already. >> in tea houses all over india untouchables have to drink from separate glasses you would again and they have to wait until someone comes to serve them outside even access to clean water is determined according to cars i'm untouchables can't use this public well, because even that touch would pollute the water. >> says this upper caused villager his customers have been practiced forever. >> and if the government passed new laws against it, nothing would change. and i personally don't believe it should this is where rung amar and untouchable woman was forced to get her water and muddy pond polluted by animal feces wrangham has encounter with the pig. >> just how dirty this water is a lot of people get sick from drinking the bad water when our children became the doctors blamed us saying, you people are unclean or caligula. second one, after enduring years of this kind of discrimination wrangham and her friends took up the fight. it began with a small act of defiance one day they decided to take clean water from the public well but they were stopped by infuriated upper caste villagers. and even worse, their own husbands were too afraid to support their cause mark on women in the village. >> we decided that if our land didn't tell us get clean water, we wouldn't look for that. and so four days later, they joined are fighting a martini random and her friends created such an uproar that eventually the upper caused in this village were forced to back down now, we have clean water and water is life and increasingly, india's 200 million untouchables are resisting through the power of the ballot. and political protests. and it's changing the face of india cast as a form of social imprisonment is beginning to break down. i think it's, it's beginning to break that people are beginning to assert their rights they are beginning to say, well, look constitutionally, this is a legitimate, these are my rights as, as an indian citizen but it's the local untouchable leaders like dr. krishna swami we're really shaking up the system by building a political movement on centuries of pent-up anger is india a democracy for all know? >> it is a fake democracy. >> we are fighting for our ourself respects and now a quarter of a century later still fighting for self-respect, their vote has changed the face and the fate of india. >> once again, fearing modi could change the constitution and remove affirmative action protections further sideline religious minorities and the press, dalit vote has denied him the super-majority expected his nationalist bjp party to win. and it does show that elections do matter and the world's biggest democracy has lived up to its name when we come back more from our panel on ai, utopia versus dystopia and how technology is changing our relationships. >> the better and for worse beit 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episodes tomorrow would nine welcome back, and down roundtable with ai industry leaders de wendy whole barrenness be banned, kidron, nina shake and connally, he so here we want to talk a little bit about the challenge of remaining human. first of all, human relationships. i spoke to professor galloway, scott galloway, who's quite famous with his podcast and where you, professor on love and isolation and how it changes relationships. here's what he told me young man without a romantic relationship not only fall off the tracks from a relationship romantically, they fall off the tracks professionally. >> and there's nothing more dangerous than a young broke and lonely man. and we're producing too many of them in the west i don't know whether young broken, lonely man, but carnage. tell me what you make of what he said in terms of relationships. >> i mean, there's a lot of truth to this we can look at across the board, in both men and women. frankly speaking, in the younger generation are having less contact with the other sex, less friends, less public gage bands, less everything. the only thing that's up is video getting consumption. and if i don't know what the future will hold, obviously it, but if i made one prediction about human relationships in the age of vi, it's that if there's, if there's a way to commoditize charge for making money off and increase the addictive potential of human relationships then tech companies are going to do that, be banned in terms of local or national political action. >> we're in the middle of an election here in the uk and this week, the labour party did make a commitment to putting the voluntary ai code on a mandatory voting. they also look like they're going to do a lot more oversight and bring the regulators together and they are taking it quite seriously. and just speaking to walk, conor just said, i spent a lot of time with young people and i'm afraid i spent quite a lot of time with the police looking at ai generated child sexual abuse both of those things, young people are anxious and that is becoming difficult to put a young person's picture in a public arena because it's being abused, used wrongly. and i think that we really do want to meet this better so that we can actually have a public square. we can be proud of doing wendy in terms of global united nations i'm on the united nations ai advisory body and it's really fantastic journey. >> we are charged with producing report about global governance of ai for humanity we report to the secretary general. i report is due out next month and it will feed into the un summit for the future. and we've, we've taken a lot of soundings working with national governments and looking at the, we global governance, the regulation will happen in the nation states. but this is about what can we agree on globally? rather like we do with climate change, nuclear disarmament and the huge challenges that we have. how you deal with the pandemic, all those sorts of things. what can we agree on? and this includes all of the world. china, as well as the western countries and the global south. the artist marina abramovic, she is very vocal on all of this and she's basically saying, i've interviewed her a lot. >> our brains can't compete with algorithms and technology that should give us more freedom, more quality time, more enhance our lives. instead, in slaves us, you know, all these gadgets i need to be i need for consumption is just constantly being fed. >> can humans keep up with this incredible technological reality? well, i think things are just gonna be different. and humans as a species, we're not static, right? where evolving all the time. if you look at the history of technology, you see that when general the purpose technologies are integrated into human society, it changes the society not only economically, but it changes humans on a biological anatomical level. and i'll give you an example. the invention of fire changed the way we structured 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the end of his career and all of his rivals are there in the room and they can see it's going to be me soon. >> yeah. what am i going to do and all of them are thinking what next, what do we think that i just thought they were set you write, of course, because now nadal is in question djokovic had to pull out a roll-on. >> garrison had surgery isn't a good fight time. so that's what's really interesting is it's about him, but it's really about them. and i think the audience, all of us go for this moments and we come to the end of a certain part of our life. what are we going to do next? >> nadal himself has pulled out of wimbledon. we don't know what will happen with djokovic. now, the documentary on phaedra as on amazon prime, june 20, and you can watch our conversation in full at amanpour.com. and that is all we have time for. i'm