Multifaceted story with the bbc�*s chief international correspondent lyse doucet. Bbc's chief international correspondent lyse doucet. When we say that _ correspondent lyse doucet. When we say that everything _ correspondent lyse doucet. When we say that everything has we say that everything has changed forjournalists but changed for journalists but nothing _ changed forjournalists but nothing has changed, the fundamentals are still there, especially when you are on the ground — especially when you are on the ground in— especially when you are on the ground in the heat and dust, in this case, — ground in the heat and dust, in this case, under the ground in the heat and dust, in this case, underthe bombs, it is the — this case, underthe bombs, it is the coup, _ this case, underthe bombs, it is the coup, where, what, where, _ is the coup, where, what, where, why? what is actually happened? rememberthat where, why? what is actually happened? remember that good old—fashioned word facts? it is to try— old—fashioned word facts? it is to try to— old—fashioned word facts? it is to try to find out the facts. More — to try to find out the facts. More and _ to try to find out the facts. More and more and in the world in which — more and more and in the world in which we _ more and more and in the world in which we live but it has always _ in which we live but it has always been the way ever since there _ always been the way ever since there has— always been the way ever since there has been war, conflicts and — there has been war, conflicts and wars _ there has been war, conflicts and wars are always unfolding on two — and wars are always unfolding on two levels. One is the facts on two levels. One is the facts on the — on two levels. One is the facts on the ground and the other is the perception of the facts on the perception of the facts on the ground. And these perceptions now have become an increasingly hostile battlefield. I don't need to tell both of you that it is nothing _ tell both of you that it is nothing less than a battle for the truth. So that it's not just— the truth. So that it's not just that _ the truth. So that it's not just that something happened, it's what— just that something happened, it's what other people think happened. And that feeling of what — happened. And that feeling of what they think happened can matter— what they think happened can matter more, indeed, in the evolution— matter more, indeed, in the evolution of the conflict and in terms _ evolution of the conflict and in terms of how the story is told — in terms of how the story is told and _ in terms of how the story is told and retold and told again and then, it becomes history. And _ and then, it becomes history. And the — and then, it becomes history. And the efforts of the people within these stories to influence how the media helps shape those perceptions, they must�*ve changed the way they try to influence how you and many others carry the stories? they have many more tools now. Before, _ they have many more tools now. Before, it — they have many more tools now. Before, it was simply face—to—face. Then we went through— face—to—face. Then we went through a _ face—to—face. Then we went through a long period in the 70s — through a long period in the 70s whenjournalists through a long period in the 70s when journalists were being kidnapped, most of all in lebanon. Then we came when journalists were not just on the front— journalists were not just on the front line but they were the front line but they were the frontline. And what we have seen, _ the frontline. And what we have seen. And — the frontline. And what we have seen, and it has been especially intensified during this gaza war, is that people think— this gaza war, is that people think they don't need us anymore. We are the so—called traditional— anymore. We are the so—called traditional media, mainstream media, _ traditional media, mainstream media, msm, they call us, and it is not— media, msm, they call us, and it is not a — media, msm, they call us, and it is not a compliment. It is not — it is not a compliment. It is not an— it is not a compliment. It is not an acronym, it is a way of saying — not an acronym, it is a way of saying you _ not an acronym, it is a way of saying you don't have the truth _ saying you don't have the truth. You are presenting a biased _ truth. You are presenting a biased view, a western view. And — biased view, a western view. And so— biased view, a western view. And so they take that story and they— and so they take that story and they put — and so they take that story and they put out what they think is happening. There was a moment, one of— happening. There was a moment, one of my— happening. There was a moment, one of my colleagues was doing an interview with a very, very controversial personality and the bbc_ controversial personality and the bbc was filming the interview and then i realised they. — interview and then i realised they. His _ interview and then i realised they, his people, were also fiiming _ they, his people, were also filming the interview and their filming the interview and their film of— filming the interview and their film of the interview got more hits and — film of the interview got more hits and went more viral than the bbc's _ hits and went more viral than the bbc's view of what happened. They chose the questions, they chose the answers, they edited it and suddenly, a bbc interview was broadcast in a very different way— broadcast in a very different way on _ broadcast in a very different way on a _ broadcast in a very different way on a non— bbc channel. And way on a non bbc channel. And that's becoming _ way on a non— bbc channel. Jifuc that's becoming more and way on a non— bbc channel. fific that's becoming more and more common? �* , that's becoming more and more common? 2 ,. . , that's becoming more and more common? 2 ,. , , common? it's become weaponised. There were — common? it's become weaponised. There were moments _ common? it's become weaponised. There were moments where, common? it's become weaponised. There were moments where, this. There were moments where, this is my— there were moments where, this is nry last — there were moments where, this is my last point, opens live on television _ is my last point, opens live on television from jerusalem doing interviews, talking to people and i— interviews, talking to people and i thought at h had to say to one — and i thought at h had to say to one person myjob is to ask the questions and you are to answer— the questions and you are to answer it. _ the questions and you are to answer it, this is a conversation. But they used us as content. They took our interviews, put us on that twitter— interviews, put us on that twitter feed and got more reactions on them and i thought i'm producing content notjust for the — i'm producing content notjust for the bbc but for everyone else — for the bbc but for everyone else. There is something really fundamental that happened in our world of information, newsgathering, the battle for the truth in this war. It's partly— the truth in this war. It's partly to— the truth in this war. It's partly to do with technology, partly — partly to do with technology, partly to _ partly to do with technology, partly to do with technology, partly to do with technology, partly to do with politics, partly _ partly to do with politics, partly to do with politics, partly to do with the israeli—palestinian conflict and — israeli—palestinian conflict and the _ israeli—palestinian conflict and the broader region. | israelipalestinian conflict and the broader region. I know ou are and the broader region. I know you are heading _ and the broader region. I know you are heading to _ and the broader region. I know you are heading to the and the broader region. I know you are heading to the region | you are heading to the region soon, tell us how it works, clearly you are rivals against, you know, the other reporters who are out there but in these situations, argue all staying in touch? are you making sure that each other keep safe? how does it work? i that each other keep safe? how does it work?— does it work? i don't see them as rivals. _ does it work? i don't see them as rivals, maybe _ does it work? i don't see them as rivals, maybe because does it work? i don't see them as rivals, maybe because i'm l as rivals, maybe because i'm not british, never seen them, this— not british, never seen them, this is— not british, never seen them, this is a — not british, never seen them, this is a classic thing that if you — this is a classic thing that if you get— this is a classic thing that if you get there, the bbc gets there — you get there, the bbc gets there before idn or before schey— there before idn or before schey it matters more, you have to get _ schey it matters more, you have to get there! they've done it already! _ to get there! they've done it already! journalism is very competitive and when the truth is not _ competitive and when the truth is not as— competitive and when the truth is not as that was but lives are — is not as that was but lives are at— is not as that was but lives are at risk, no story is worth dying — are at risk, no story is worth dying for~ _ are at risk, no story is worth dying for. And it does bring journalists together and i remember we journalists together and i rememberwe saw journalists together and i remember we saw this during the fullscale — remember we saw this during the full—scale russian invasion of ukraine _ full—scale russian invasion of ukraine i_ full—scale russian invasion of ukraine. I spent the night speaking to my colleagues from cnn and — speaking to my colleagues from cnn and schey and idn and i called — cnn and schey and idn and i called up all of them and said what — called up all of them and said what are _ called up all of them and said what are we going to do? they called — what are we going to do? they called me _ what are we going to do? they called me up and it does bring people — called me up and it does bring people together because quite frankly— people together because quite frankly i heard orla guerin views— frankly i heard orla guerin views are excellent, our senior international correspondent, i heard — international correspondent, i heard her— international correspondent, i heard her to lay on the bbc saying _ heard her to lay on the bbc saying exactly the same are completely different. Hezbollah has taken us here, this is what hezbollah _ has taken us here, this is what hezbollah wants to see. This is the human cost of this war. In some — the human cost of this war. In some ways, there is no exclusives in this, you just want — exclusives in this, you just want to— exclusives in this, you just want to tell the story as it is. Want to tell the story as it is bring _ want to tell the story as it is. Bring your listeners, readers _ is. Bring your listeners, readers viewers into where you are, _ readers viewers into where you are, what — readers viewers into where you are, what are your constraints around — are, what are your constraints around the _ are, what are your constraints around the dangers, editorial as well— around the dangers, editorial as well as real dangers. Get out alive _ as well as real dangers. Get out alive— out alive. Before we let you io, out alive. Before we let you no, it out alive. Before we let you go. It is _ out alive. Before we let you go, it is obviously _ out alive. Before we let you go, it is obviously about. Out alive. Before we let you go, it is obviously about to | out alive. Before we let you l go, it is obviously about to be a year since october seven and i wonder in terms of your reflections about what we have learned in that year, particularly about how the media covers this region? it has become — the media has become _ has become — the media has become the story. And notjust a story— become the story. And notjust a story but— become the story. And notjust a story but very, very very emotional story, a story fired up emotional story, a story fired up with— emotional story, a story fired up with anger. I think it is a defining _ up with anger. I think it is a defining moment for how much is the media — defining moment for how much is the media and the media is seen as a reflection of the wider world _ as a reflection of the wider world with many now discussing, criticising — world with many now discussing, criticising so—called double standards and it's very difficult for us at the bbc because we have these rules about — because we have these rules about don't show too much bloodshed, don't use certain kinds — bloodshed, don't use certain kinds of— bloodshed, don't use certain kinds of words, we have a certain— kinds of words, we have a certain language and as we heard — certain language and as we heard earlier, that in making those — heard earlier, that in making those choices, but we would regard — those choices, but we would regard as _ those choices, but we would regard as technical editorial issues — regard as technical editorial issues are seen as political issues _ issues are seen as political issues that we are not really teiiing — issues that we are not really telling the real story. Do you sometimes _ telling the real story. Do you sometimes wish _ telling the real story. Do you sometimes wish you telling the real story. Do you sometimes wish you could i telling the real story. Do you | sometimes wish you could say more?. , ~' sometimes wish you could say more?. , ,,. . , sometimes wish you could say more?. , ,,. . �* sometimes wish you could say more?. , ,, �*. , more? no, i think we can i'm a big believer— more? no, i think we can i'm a big believer in _ more? no, i think we can i'm a big believer in that _ more? no, i think we can i'm a big believer in that you more? no, i think we can i'm a big believer in that you can big believer in that you can find — big believer in that you can find ways to communicate the enormity— find ways to communicate the enormity and the intensity of an issue _ enormity and the intensity of an issue and sometimes, you know, _ an issue and sometimes, you know. I— an issue and sometimes, you know, i often say don't dramatise an already dramatic situation _ dramatise an already dramatic situation. One word cannot convey— situation. One word cannot convey the entire enormity of what — convey the entire enormity of what has _ convey the entire enormity of what has happened but a good story— what has happened but a good story well told is far more — has — story well told is far more — has far— story well told is far more — has far more impact than the particular— has far more impact than the particular language, so i think this has— particular language, so i think this has been a really salient time, — this has been a really salient time, most of all for the region. _ time, most of all for the region, including for journalists that i know you've done — journalists that i know you've done this— journalists that i know you've done this before and a record number— done this before and a record number ofjournalists killed, number of journalists killed, how— number of journalists killed, how palestinian journalists have — how palestinian journalists have stepped up to cover not 'ust have stepped up to cover not just what _ have stepped up to cover not just what is a major world story— just what is a major world story but— just what is a major world story but it is their own lives, _ story but it is their own lives, literally, on the line. And — lives, literally, on the line. And how— lives, literally, on the line. And how we are dependent on then— and how we are dependent on then so— and how we are dependent on then so much. And it's — it will— then so much. And it's — it will link— then so much. And it's — it will link _ then so much. And it's — it will link —— live long what has happened. _ will link —— live long what has happened, the way we have reported and act and, of course, _ reported and act and, of course, the way the world has acted — course, the way the world has acted in — course, the way the world has acted in this crisis. So much is being _ acted in this crisis. So much is being tested. — acted in this crisis. So much is being tested. Many thanks to the bbc's lyse _ is being tested. Many thanks to the bbc's lyse doucet. Is being tested. Many thanks to the bbc's lyse doucet. One is being tested. Many thanks to the bbc's lyse doucet. One of. The bbc's lyse doucet. One of the bbc's lyse doucet. One of the many tasks within the bbc's newsroom and many others around the world with the story of this nature is escalating is the verification of videos that are emerging, especially those posted on social media. And to understand that process, i've been speaking to my colleague from bbc verify shayan sardarizadeh. He's been explaining the work he did in the minutes and hours that followed around's attack on israel. ~. ,. , israel. We were waiting for it to happen — israel. We were waiting for it to happen and _ israel. We were waiting for it to happen and obviously israel. We were waiting for it | to happen and obviously when israel. We were waiting for it. To happen and obviously when it did happen, we started looking at the — did happen, we started looking at the sources we've got and the places we usually look for these — the places we usually look for these types of videos. Fortunately, in my case, i was ltorn— fortunately, in my case, i was born and — fortunately, in my case, i was born and raised in iran before i born and raised in iran before i moved — born and raised in iran before i moved to— born and raised in iran before i moved to the united kingdom so i i moved to the united kingdom so i know— i moved to the united kingdom so i know the source is pretty well — so i know the source is pretty well and _ so i know the source is pretty well and where to look when it comes— well and where to look when it comes to — well and where to look when it comes to an event that is directly— comes to an event that is directly linked to iran so i started _ directly linked to iran so i started checking videos coming from _ started checking videos coming from lran~ _ started checking videos coming from iran. It's really not an exaggeration to say within half—an—hour or maybe 45 minutes— half—an—hour or maybe 45 minutes of this sort of demand, we got — minutes of this sort of demand, we got the _ minutes of this sort of demand, we got the alert that iran had launched _ we got the alert that iran had launched these missiles, we had upwards— launched these missiles, we had upwards of i think 100 videos to look— upwards of i think 100 videos to look at. Because they were coming — to look at. Because they were coming in _ to look at. Because they were coming in thick and fast from different— coming in thick and fast from different parts of iran, people were — different parts of iran, people were basically pointing their smartphone cameras at the sky, seeing _ smartphone cameras at the sky, seeing what clearly looks like missiles _ seeing what clearly looks like missiles travelling in a certain— missiles travelling in a certain direction and pretty much — certain direction and pretty much interestingly, even with those — much interestingly, even with those videos, nighttime pitch black— those videos, nighttime pitch black because mostly, not always— black because mostly, not always but mostly, around places _ always but mostly, around places these missile launchers are sort— places these missile launchers are sort of areas that are rural, _ are sort of areas that are rural, not— are sort of areas that are rural, not populated by a lot of people and most of the videos _ of people and most of the videos that we are getting initially from inside iran will like — initially from inside iran will like people in small villages, rural— like people in small villages, rural areas, towns, looking up at what — rural areas, towns, looking up at what was going on and they knew— at what was going on and they knew exactly what was happening. And then we thought a very— happening. And then we thought a very immediately, because ekactly— a very immediately, because exactly as i said earlier in the — exactly as i said earlier in the programme, because these were _ the programme, because these were not— the programme, because these were not crews result up ballistic _ were not crews result up ballistic missiles are actually from — ballistic missiles are actually from iran's possessives very advanced _ from iran's possessives very advanced missiles, as slider videos — advanced missiles, as slider videos from different parts of lsrael. — videos from different parts of israel, missiles flying over different towns and cities and then, — different towns and cities and then, what separated this attack— then, what separated this attack from the one that we had in april— attack from the one that we had in april was at this time around, _ in april was at this time around, we actually, the videos were _ around, we actually, the videos were actually quite a lot of impact _ were actually quite a lot of impact in different parts of lsrael. _ impact in different parts of israel, particularly in four separate areas that we got. Can i 'ust ask separate areas that we got. Can i just ask you — separate areas that we got. Can i just ask you so _ separate areas that we got. Can i just ask you so first separate areas that we got. Can ijust ask you so first of separate areas that we got. Can i just ask you so first of all you are assessing who is sharing these videos and in some cases, you can take a position about whether that looks like a reliable source or not but even if it is a reliable source, presumably as well as checking who is sharing this, you need to look at what is actually in the video and start doing checks about whether this would be, this appears to be a legitimate recording of what happened? yeah, first of all we want to make — yeah, first of all we want to make sure that the video we are seeing _ make sure that the video we are seeing is — make sure that the video we are seeing is recent, so the internet— seeing is recent, so the internet is flooded with all sorts — internet is flooded with all sorts of— internet is flooded with all sorts of videos from all different times and one of the things— different times and one of the things that happens when you have — things that happens when you have a — things that happens when you have a breaking story like this is your— have a breaking story like this is your will see tons and tons of videos _ is your will see tons and tons of videos being posted on social— of videos being posted on social media, either deliberately for engagement or by people who basically don't know— by people who basically don't know the facts. Of past conflicts, recycled videos, videos _ conflicts, recycled videos, videos from similar events in the past _ videos from similar events in the past but not what's actually happening at the time that the — actually happening at the time that the story is developing so first of— that the story is developing so first of all we have to determine the video we are seeing _ determine the video we are seeing is _ determine the video we are seeing is recent, that we have to determine where the video was filmed, the process called geolocation, we want to establish where exactly the video— establish where exactly the video was filmed and finally, we want _ video was filmed and finally, we want to make sure we can find _ we want to make sure we can find an— we want to make sure we can find an earlier source of that video— find an earlier source of that video that the person originally posted that on which platform, what did they say and what _ platform, what did they say and what was — platform, what did they say and what was the context? did they feel any— what was the context? did they feel any other videos, any other— feel any other videos, any other images? because that then involves— other images? because that then involves a — other images? because that then involves a process of reporting to audiences notjust involves a process of reporting to audiences not just the fact that— to audiences not just the fact that this _ to audiences not just the fact that this video exist and it's a striking _ that this video exist and it's a striking video and people want — a striking video and people want to— a striking video and people want to see and know what is happening in this part of israel— happening in this part of israel or any other place but also, — israel or any other place but also, in _ israel or any other place but also, in the wider context, we want — also, in the wider context, we want to— also, in the wider context, we want to be _ also, in the wider context, we want to be able to tell a story about — want to be able to tell a story about what exactly happened, is on these — about what exactly happened, is on these videos, putting them altogether and them into a story _ altogether and them into a sto. . ~ altogether and them into a sto. . , ,, ,. , altogether and them into a sto. . ~' ,. , , altogether and them into a sto. . , ,. Story. Thank you very much indeed for _ story. Thank you very much indeed for sharing story. Thank you very much indeed for sharing what story. Thank you very much j indeed for sharing what you have been doing in the last 24 hours in the verification process which he is describing all we have heard on the media show before, is absolutely fundamental matter how many of the biggest news organisations in the world respond to stories such as around's attack on israel on tuesday evening. Now, let's turn our attention to what could be one of the biggest flops in video game history. Indeed, one of the biggest flops in media history. This is a new game from sony. It cost millions of dollars to develop. And it has been pulled afterjust develop. And it has been pulled after just a few days. Develop. And it has been pulled afterjust a few days. There were high hopes for it, though. Here is a trailer. Brute were high hopes for it, though. Here is a trailer. — here is a trailer. We cannot tell them — here is a trailer. We cannot tell them anything here is a trailer. We cannot tell them anything until here is a trailer. We cannot | tell them anything until they unlock the frequent frequency. Probably not going to happen. What? — probably not going to happen. What? most people never get what — what? most people never get what they want? set your expectations. Low. And prepare to be _ expectations. Low. And prepare to be disappointed. To expectations. Low. And prepare to be disappointed. — to be disappointed. To find out why concord — to be disappointed. To find out why concord is _ to be disappointed. To find out why concord is being _ to be disappointed. To find out why concord is being so why concord is being so unpopular, i spoke to keza macdonald, video games editor at the guardian. — at the guardian. Well, concord was known _ at the guardian. Well, concord was known as _ at the guardian. Well, concord was known as a _ at the guardian. Well, concord was known as a hero _ at the guardian. Well, concord was known as a hero shooter. At the guardian. Well, concord | was known as a hero shooter so the idea — was known as a hero shooter so the idea is— was known as a hero shooter so the idea is you and your friends _ the idea is you and your friends into a game, you each pick— friends into a game, you each pick a — friends into a game, you each pick a roster of heroes like heard _ pick a roster of heroes like heard in— pick a roster of heroes like heard in the trailer and all have — heard in the trailer and all have a _ heard in the trailer and all have a very good time shooting each _ have a very good time shooting each other. It also was known as a _ each other. It also was known as a live — each other. It also was known as a live service game means that— as a live service game means that the — as a live service game means that the idea is that players will play it for months or years— will play it for months or years and it will have a long life and _ years and it will have a long life and make lots of money for its publisher but obviously that — its publisher but obviously that isn't how it's worked out in this— that isn't how it's worked out in this case. — that isn't how it's worked out in this case. Why not? why was it so unpopular? _ in this case. Why not? why was it so unpopular? why _ in this case. Why not? why was it so unpopular? why didn't in this case. Why not? why was it so unpopular? why didn't it l it so unpopular? why didn't it work estimate is hard to say but i think one of the problems with concord is at about eight years to make, which is not unusual these days, big budget busters like this obviously take a long time. And a lot of money, presumably! by, take a long time. And a lot of money, presumably! money, presumably! a lot of mone , money, presumably! a lot of money. Like _ money, presumably! a lot of money, like you _ money, presumably! a lot of money, like you said money, presumably! a lot of money, like you said one money, presumably! a lot of money, like you said one ofl money, presumably! a lot of. Money, like you said one of the estimates— money, like you said one of the estimates put it at about $300 million. — estimates put it at about $300 million, 100 or $200 million earlier— million, 100 or $200 million earlier estimates but either way. — earlier estimates but either way, an— earlier estimates but either way, an enormous amount of money— way, an enormous amount of money and i think by the time concorde _ money and i think by the time concorde came out, concord had moved _ concorde came out, concord had moved on — concorde came out, concord had moved on from these genre, there — moved on from these genre, there are _ moved on from these genre, there are a lot of popular games— there are a lot of popular games of the genre, development, apex legends, overwatch, these are all games that millions of people play and there wasn't room in the market. _ and there wasn't room in the market. It _ and there wasn't room in the market, it seemed, foranother genre — market, it seemed, foranother genre l— market, it seemed, for another uenre. . Market, it seemed, for another ienre. . ,. ,. ,. , market, it seemed, for another enre. . . ,. ,. , genre. I am aware of, showing m ae, genre. I am aware of, showing my age. The — genre. I am aware of, showing my age. The et _ genre. I am aware of, showing my age, the et game genre. I am aware of, showing my age, the et game in genre. I am aware of, showing my age, the et game in 1983 l my age, the et game in 1983 that atari made that was considered the worst came disaster ever in history but is this now beaten it? how unusual is it for a game to be pulled after launch? i is it for a game to be pulled after launch?— after launch? i don't think this is a — after launch? i don't think this is a happened. After launch? i don't think this is a happened. It's. After launch? i don't think| this is a happened. It's not unusual— this is a happened. It's not unusual for a game to be cancelled in the run—up to launch _ cancelled in the run—up to launch. There was a game called ithink— launch. There was a game called i think hyenas called siegah which — i think hyenas called siegah which was a single hero shooter and it— which was a single hero shooter and it was— which was a single hero shooter and it was cancelled for five months _ and it was cancelled for five months after launch and it is a bil months after launch and it is a big story— months after launch and it is a big story in games for something to be on the market for it _ something to be on the market for it or— something to be on the market for it or 12 _ something to be on the market for 11 or 12 days and then to be pulled completely, it must've been such an incalculable disaster, it would have — incalculable disaster, it would have much better from a pr perspective also need to have counsel— perspective also need to have counsel before it came out because _ counsel before it came out because then it doesn't turn into— because then it doesn't turn into a — because then it doesn't turn into a huge story like this. And — into a huge story like this. And what— into a huge story like this. And what about the way the investment in this game, is inevitable? you have to put so much money, it is a very narrow market in terms of people often the same game now for years and years and years, they are wedded to one game, is it inevitable in the gaming industry that they would be expensive flops and are they built into the sort of usp and the way they think about this? i really do think this is a kind _ i really do think this is a kind of— i really do think this is a kind of existential crisis moment video games because these — moment video games because these budgets are getting very out of— these budgets are getting very out of control, there has been a huge — out of control, there has been a huge contraction in games in the last— a huge contraction in games in the last four years after the pandemic lots of people losing their— pandemic lots of people losing theirjobs and lots of projects getting — theirjobs and lots of projects getting cancelled a lot of businesses going out of businesses going out of business and i think that a return— business and i think that a return to _ business and i think that a return to more manageable ways of developing, more sustainable ways— of developing, more sustainable ways of— of developing, more sustainable ways of developing, has to be on the — ways of developing, has to be on the cards because these live service — on the cards because these live service games are enormous gambles~ _ service games are enormous gambles. Eitheryou make gambles. Either you make millions— gambles. Eitheryou make millions and millions of everyone is happy or you have to absorb— everyone is happy or you have to absorb these kinds of exceptionally huge loss and most — exceptionally huge loss and most companies in games cannot absorb _ most companies in games cannot absorb losses like this very often — absorb losses like this very often if— absorb losses like this very often if at all. — often if at all. But the prediction _ often if at all. But the prediction about often if at all. But the prediction about the l often if at all. But the prediction about the future of where the video games market might go but what about the explanation for why? has it happened? i don't mean why is it a flop, i mean why have they been these mass layoffs in the industry? been these mass layoffs in the indust ? ,. , industry? during covid, everyone _ industry? during covid, everyone was _ industry? during covid, everyone was stuck industry? during covid, everyone was stuck at i industry? during covid, everyone was stuck at home and video— everyone was stuck at home and video games became very, very popular. — video games became very, very popular, increasingly so. Games like animal crossing horizons which — like animal crossing horizons which l'm _ like animal crossing horizons which i'm sure a lot of us would _ which i'm sure a lot of us would have played all remember from _ would have played all remember from that — would have played all remember from that time, it sold 30 million _ from that time, it sold 30 million copies, so a lot of investments only in video game developing sent in my opinion guite — developing sent in my opinion quite business decisions made by companies that meant that they— by companies that meant that they scaled up massively in a very— they scaled up massively in a very short _ they scaled up massively in a very short period of time and then— very short period of time and then when the investment money tap was— then when the investment money tap was turned off, suddenly a lot of— tap was turned off, suddenly a lot of people ended up at the sharp— lot of people ended up at the sharp end of layoffs and this is something that has been happening for the last year especially in games. They have been _ especially in games. They have been heartbreaking stories about— been heartbreaking stories about studios who were making critically— about studios who were making critically acclaimed games, popular— critically acclaimed games, popular games but still, there studios — popular games but still, there studios are being shut down and i studios are being shut down and i really— studios are being shut down and i really think it's to do with just— i really think it's to do with just the _ i really think it's to do with just the general sustainability mindset. Gaming has become huge and millions of people play games— and millions of people play games now people spend so much money— games now people spend so much money on — games now people spend so much money on them but also become stratified — money on them but also become stratified and you get these massive _ stratified and you get these massive blockbuster games and then you — massive blockbuster games and then you get into games and the spacing — then you get into games and the spacing between has become difficult to work in and think it will— difficult to work in and think it will be _ difficult to work in and think it will be a correction there in the _ it will be a correction there in the next few years. Keza macdonald, _ in the next few years. Keza macdonald, video in the next few years. Keza macdonald, video games i in the next few years. Keza macdonald, video games editor at the guardian, thank you so much for coming on the programme. Now we speak to the manager of europe of my biggest manager of europe of my biggest youtube manager of europe of my biggest youtube creators, the sidemen. If you have not heard of them, they are a group of friends who post wildly popular videos stop metabolism to one, this is them playing a giant game of hide and seek. Playing a giant game of hide and seek— playing a giant game of hide and seek. �* ,. , and seek. I've shut down the bi ier and seek. I've shut down the bigger shopping _ and seek. I've shut down the bigger shopping centre and seek. I've shut down the bigger shopping centre in and seek. I've shut down the | bigger shopping centre in the uk for— bigger shopping centre in the uk for the same game of hide and seek _ uk for the same game of hide and seek. The boys are starting the gravity on the go—kart track— the gravity on the go—kart track and will base into the shopping centre and hide wherever they want for here we no. Wherever they want for here we io, �* , wherever they want for here we to. I , ,. , wherever they want for here we io. ,. , wherever they want for here we io, ,. , z: wherever they want for here we io. . , z: , go. Boys, you have 20 minutes to hide! go! — go. Boys, you have 20 minutes to hide! go! let's _ go. Boys, you have 20 minutes to hide! go! let's go! go. Boys, you have 20 minutes to hide! go! let's go! we've. To hide! go! let's go! we've been to hide! let's go! we've been talking _ to hide! let's go! we've been talking to _ to hide! let's go! we've been talking to the to hide! let's go! we'vej been talking to the manager to hide! let's go! we've i been talking to the manager of the sidemenjordan's watson the sidemen jordan's watson burger about the sidemenjordan's watson burger about the creative process behind the videos and the business strategies. The sidemen. — the business strategies. The sidemen. L— the business strategies. The sidemen, i would _ the business strategies. The sidemen, i would say this, the sidemen, ! would say this, the bigger— sidemen, i would say this, the bigger sort of cultural export for gen— bigger sort of cultural export for gen 2_ bigger sort of cultural export for gen 2 from the uk, really, and _ for gen 2 from the uk, really, and people have likened them to the one — and people have likened them to the one direction of youtube, as was— the one direction of youtube, as was in— the one direction of youtube, as was in the documentary, and ithink— as was in the documentary, and i think that _ as was in the documentary, and i think that we described it in seven— i think that we described it in seven real friends are started playing — seven real friends are started playing games together in 2013 like grand theft auto and it's interesting because a ten year anniversary of grand theft auto six was — anniversary of grand theft auto six was about to come out and grab _ six was about to come out and grab theft— six was about to come out and grab theft auto five was the whole — grab theft auto five was the whole brand really select play games— whole brand really select play games together and blossomed into a _ games together and blossomed into a channel and into making videos — into a channel and into making videos with each other became this huge — videos with each other became this huge sensation on youtube when _ this huge sensation on youtube when youtube was not a point where — when youtube was not a point where it — when youtube was not a point where it was as, nowhere near as big — where it was as, nowhere near as big as— where it was as, nowhere near as big as it _ where it was as, nowhere near as big as it was today so they manage — as big as it was today so they manage the kind of get there early. — manage the kind of get there early, make content together that was _ early, make content together that was all about them basically having fun and travelling the world and doing challenges and game shows and all sorts— challenges and game shows and all sorts of other fun things and — all sorts of other fun things and then— all sorts of other fun things and then i think people connected with them individually, right or you have seven— individually, right or you have seven friends, people will locate _ seven friends, people will locate as i have gone on to have — locate as i have gone on to have amazing career in music and _ have amazing career in music and boxing etc, the other boys as well— and boxing etc, the other boys as well and if you go out on the — as well and if you go out on the streets and you ask everybody probably under the ae everybody probably under the age of— everybody probably under the age of 30 they would be equally as famous which meant that they now gone — as famous which meant that they now gone on to join them in 2021, — now gone on to join them in 2021, i_ now gone on to join them in 2021, i think they have 8 million _ 2021, i think they have 8 million orjust hit 10 million subs — million orjust hit 10 million subs on _ million orjust hit 10 million subs on youtube in our 21 million _ subs on youtube in our 21 million subs we have had, netflix _ million subs we have had, netflix documentary, to charity matches — netflix documentary, to charity matches that have grossed 5 million — matches that have grossed 5 million for charity and sold over — million for charity and sold over 130,000 tickets or whatever it is. We have done a christmas _ whatever it is. We have done a christmas number one in 2022, we beat — christmas number one in 2022, we beat mariah carey at christmas which will be the top thing _ christmas which will be the top thing on — christmas which will be the top thing on my cv, thank you, and number— thing on my cv, thank you, and number three on the official travel— number three on the official travel another one on the global— travel another one on the global charts and we have launched a fried chicken restaurant and a breakfast brand _ restaurant and a breakfast brand and a whole host of other things— brand and a whole host of other things so— brand and a whole host of other things so yes, it's been a lot of fun— things so yes, it's been a lot of fun of— things so yes, it's been a lot of fun of it _ things so yes, it's been a lot of fun of it is born out of the connection that they have with each _ connection that they have with each other and also fans across the world _ each other and also fans across the world. So each other and also fans across the world— the world. So that's a lot, but the world. So that's a lot, but the low the world. So that's a lot, but the long list. _ the world. So that's a lot, but the long list, even _ the world. So that's a lot, but the long list, even though the long list, even though there's, it's a group of them and a group of you working with them. Help us understand what a normal working week would be from your perspective and also from your perspective and also from theirs because to generate this volume of products in this volume of content must need a pretty detailed plan. I volume of content must need a pretty detailed plan. — pretty detailed plan. I mean it chanies pretty detailed plan. I mean it changes all— pretty detailed plan. I mean it changes all the _ pretty detailed plan. I mean it changes all the time pretty detailed plan. I mean it changes all the time but pretty detailed plan. I mean it| changes all the time but really they are — changes all the time but really they are producing i think about— they are producing i think about 8—12 videos a week, it might— about 8—12 videos a week, it might even be more about them across— might even be more about them across the — might even be more about them across the different channels. The main _ across the different channels. The main channel on youtube moorside _ the main channel on youtube moorside member channel reacts inside _ moorside member channel reacts inside plus which has within a different— inside plus which has within a different number of shows and places— different number of shows and places there and recorded version _ places there and recorded version of the netflix if ewels our paid — version of the netflix if ewels our paid membership subscription platform which provides more platform, exclusive chosen formats and hear — exclusive chosen formats and hear the _ exclusive chosen formats and hear the average week will essentially be across three buckets _ essentially be across three buckets i would say in our business, the first being the kind — business, the first being the kind of— business, the first being the kind of content buckets of that is led — kind of content buckets of that is led by— kind of content buckets of that is led by victor who is the managing director and is unbelievable and he once sidemen are and inside plus what — sidemen are and inside plus what is _ sidemen are and inside plus what is all the content, a sort of run~~~ _ what is all the content, a sort of run _ of run. . . Help us understand the creative _ of run. . . Help us understand the creative process, of run. . . Help us understand the creative process, he of run. . . Help us understand l the creative process, he would generate the ideas and suggest them to the sidemen or they would come and go this week i want to do x and y and z? do you sit down and have meetings or zoom or how do you do it? it would have meetings with all of the guys — would have meetings with all of the guys and they would go through all of their ideas and all the — through all of their ideas and all the ones that they want to put in — all the ones that they want to put in the _ all the ones that they want to put in the pipeline and then he will work— put in the pipeline and then he will work with the creative team _ will work with the creative team to _ will work with the creative team to go on planet out and i was executed alongside them on the way— was executed alongside them on the way that the guys work is each — the way that the guys work is each of— the way that the guys work is each of them take an individual video— each of them take an individual video for— each of them take an individual video for the main channels of albert— video for the main channels of albert arenas resource possibilities for each video essentially, so he will work with. — essentially, so he will work with, regular, creative and victor— with, regular, creative and victorto— with, regular, creative and victor to make sure that the ideas — victor to make sure that the ideas are _ victor to make sure that the ideas are flushed out and tanya who is— ideas are flushed out and tanya who is the — ideas are flushed out and tanya who is the incredible sort of head — who is the incredible sort of head of— who is the incredible sort of head of sidemen production will io head of sidemen production will go out _ head of sidemen production will go out and executed alongside the set — go out and executed alongside the set designer and art director. They will be sunday, sidemen _ director. They will be sunday, sidemen they do more sort of shoot — sidemen they do more sort of shoot days once every couple of weeks. — shoot days once every couple of weeks. I— shoot days once every couple of weeks, i think, shoot days once every couple of weeks, ithink, and gaming sessions _ weeks, ithink, and gaming sessions as well for the channel— sessions as well for the channel also some in person and some _ channel also some in person and some gaming and reacts is done at home — some gaming and reacts is done at home and four plus we have a studio— at home and four plus we have a studio in— at home and four plus we have a studio in east london with a guy— studio in east london with a guy will— studio in east london with a guy will every two weeks and was down and they will have a timer— was down and they will have a timer that— was down and they will have a timer that goes off and there are four— timer that goes off and there are four sets which each of the shows — are four sets which each of the shows how housing and they will io shows how housing and they will go between set to set to set sometimes as a group of four or three _ sometimes as a group of four or three with — sometimes as a group of four or three with a guest and. . . And the are three with a guest and. . . And they are fixed, _ three with a guest and. . . And they are fixed, there three with a guest and. . . fific they are fixed, there the three with a guest and. . . Elic they are fixed, there the whole time? ~. , ,. , they are fixed, there the whole time? ~. , ,. ~' they are fixed, there the whole time? ~. , ,,. , time? would you like to come down and _ time? would you like to come down and see? _ time? would you like to come down and see? i _ time? would you like to come down and see? i would time? would you like to come down and see? i would be time? would you like to come | down and see? i would be very interested. _ down and see? i would be very interested. How _ down and see? i would be very interested. How many down and see? i would be very interested. How many people i interested. How many people work on producing all of this content aside from the sidemen themselves? i content aside from the sidemen themselves?— themselves? i think victor said themselves? i think victor said the other day _ themselves? i think victor said the other day he _ themselves? i think victor said the other day he had _ themselves? i think victor said the other day he had 35 themselves? i think victor said the other day he had 35 directl the other day he had 35 direct is the — the other day he had 35 direct is the direct report fulfilling life back, so a lot of people. It's life back, so a lot of people. It's a — life back, so a lot of people. It's a big _ life back, so a lot of people. It's a big operation. It life back, so a lot of people. It's a big operation. It's a big operation. It is and it's bii it's a big operation. It is and it's big but _ it's a big operation. It is and it's big but it _ it's a big operation. It is and it's big but it is _ it's a big operation. It is and it's big but it is lean, it's a big operation. It is and it's big but it is lean, you. It's big but it is lean, you will— it's big but it is lean, you will have, _ it's big but it is lean, you will have, it is amazing in the office — will have, it is amazing in the office is— will have, it is amazing in the office is relatively modest and there — office is relatively modest and there is— office is relatively modest and there is a _ office is relatively modest and there is a group of art directors and traffic designers, project managers, we have _ designers, project managers, we have hhii — designers, project managers, we have hhi, we have a whole team of people — have hhi, we have a whole team of people now so that they make it work— of people now so that they make it work so — of people now so that they make it work so it is quite big. What _ it work so it is quite big. What is _ it work so it is quite big. What is the business model? it is add sense through youtube for monetisation of course about— for monetisation of course about is— for monetisation of course about is the number one driver across— about is the number one driver across everything. Side plus which — across everything. Side plus which actually makes more money other— which actually makes more money other than— which actually makes more money other than you to add sense is a directly— other than you to add sense is a directly monthly revenue from the suspension platform and that— the suspension platform and that is— the suspension platform and that is kind of in the one bucket— that is kind of in the one bucket and the other two buckets, the second one is the brands — buckets, the second one is the brands buckets so that i guess the sidemen consumer brands, those _ the sidemen consumer brands, those are — the sidemen consumer brands, those are basically longer—term plays. _ those are basically longer—term plays, they are not cash generative of course as anyone knows — generative of course as anyone knows. As _ generative of course as anyone knows. �* , generative of course as anyone knows. . ,. ,. ,. , knows. As the generation of talent want _ knows. As the generation of talent want to _ knows. As the generation of talent want to be _ knows. As the generation of talent want to be on knows. As the generation of talent want to be on the talent want to be on the television? i ask because it has been reported that kayess i will be a guestjudge on brydens got talent and is saying he is very excited about it and no doubt he is but one thing is interesting because does kate or anyone big star of the digital world need television in the profile it offers? ,, ~ offers? ksi. With tv generally _ offers? ksi. With tv generally the _ offers? ksi. With tv generally the word offers? ksi. With tv| generally the word need offers? ksi. With tv. Generally the word need i offers? ksi. With tv generally the word need i would question. — generally the word need i would question, i don't think youtubers are content creators need — youtubers are content creators need tv _ youtubers are content creators need tv but i do think it adds something of course, i think it's easy— something of course, i think it's easy to sort of disregard the concrete traditional media and its — the concrete traditional media and its focus on the new and i think— and its focus on the new and i think there is an absolute balta _ think there is an absolute balta had the boat. Because of our balta had the boat. Because of your calculation _ balta had the boat. Because of your calculation you _ balta had the boat. Because of your calculation you don't balta had the boat. Because ofj your calculation you don't want to turn your back entirely on more traditional media, you interact with it a lot. What do you make of it? do you think sometimes side a covid tv spends too much money producing the quantity doesn't have his ways of working is out of date with what you and others are doing. I with what you and others are doini. ~'. , , with what you and others are doini. ,,. , ,. , doing. I think for me it is a combination _ doing. I think for me it is a combination of— doing. I think for me it is a combination of things. Doing. I think for me it is a combination of things. I i doing. I think for me it is a i combination of things. I think the economy of tv doesn't clearly— the economy of tv doesn't clearly make sense for the way that advertisers are spending, advertising dollars are shifting more and more into digital— shifting more and more into digital and they are moving away— digital and they are moving away from linear. At a rapid exhilarating lie cataclysmic level— exhilarating lie cataclysmic level but you can see the writing _ level but you can see the writing is on the wall really which — writing is on the wall really which is _ writing is on the wall really which is the advertisers are becoming slightly more southerly and also they are realising that the over inflation of tv advertising prizes _ inflation of tv advertising prizes are causing a level, welli _ prizes are causing a level, well, can— prizes are causing a level, well, can we get bang for our buck— well, can we get bang for our buck on — well, can we get bang for our buck on programmatic or social? so i buck on programmatic or social? so i think— buck on programmatic or social? so i think the movement away from _ so i think the movement away from linear as an advertising funnel, _ from linear as an advertising funnel, if— from linear as an advertising funnel, if you will, will innately mean that the budget have _ innately mean that the budget have to — innately mean that the budget have to come down. Or there has to be _ have to come down. Or there has to be more — have to come down. Or there has to be more creative ways of directly _ to be more creative ways of directly monetising audiences. We are — directly monetising audiences. We are having this conversation in the bbc's broadcasting house in the bbc's broadcasting house in the bbc's broadcasting house in the centre of london. Where does an organisation like the bbc fit into the calculations that you may make around clients like the sidemen? does an organisation like this feel relevant in any way to the media world that you are navigating them through? you know, i would _ navigating them through? you know, i would say _ navigating them through? you know, i would say it's increasingly hard to find where the relevance sits for our world, _ the relevance sits for our world, interestingly public service _ world, interestingly public service broadcasters. Ithink for a — service broadcasters. Ithink for a generation coming up today— for a generation coming up today and i was speaking to one of the _ today and i was speaking to one of the editors commissioning editors— of the editors commissioning editors at the bbc on the tv side — editors at the bbc on the tv side and _ editors at the bbc on the tv side and we were talking and she is— side and we were talking and she is amazing and we were talking _ she is amazing and we were talking about it and i was saying _ talking about it and i was saying to your kids know what apesb — saying to your kids know what apesb is, with a lower public service — apesb is, with a lower public service broadcasters and jesus i service broadcasters and jesus ldon't — service broadcasters and jesus i don't really know if they would _ i don't really know if they would have i think that is the case, — would have i think that is the case, the _ would have i think that is the case, the relevance of the bbc for public— case, the relevance of the bbc for public service broadcasting for public service broadcasting forjhaniele fowler, gen 2 may be just— forjhaniele fowler, gen 2 may be just about but for general saffin— be just about but for general saffin kids coming up, i cannot see the — saffin kids coming up, i cannot see the minds of them who are being _ see the minds of them who are being born into a totally globalised entertainment climates, but they can have access _ climates, but they can have access to _ climates, but they can have access to anyone in the world, any account on twitter, any account — any account on twitter, any account of— any account on twitter, any account of instagram, any publisher on face or any tiktokker whatever it may be —— gen alpha. _ tiktokker whatever it may be —— gen alpha, gen z. . I look at it and— gen alpha, gen z. . I look at it and i— gen alpha, gen z. . I look at it and i think— gen alpha, gen z. . I look at it and i think you look at tiktok for example the sentiment around _ for example the sentiment around licensing, at as if all subscriptions i think it is an interesting ones that were actually they are in the subscription bubble in the mind of everything is subscription or a — of everything is subscription or a free _ of everything is subscription or a free account which allows me to — or a free account which allows me to access content in the media — me to access content in the media into my place in my money with so— media into my place in my money with so it's — media into my place in my money with so it's funny that you look— with so it's funny that you look on _ with so it's funny that you look on tiktok and missy higgins _ look on tiktok and missy higgins the license fee stuff for gen— higgins the license fee stuff for gen 2 and young audiences, they— for gen 2 and young audiences, they see — for gen 2 and young audiences, they see it— for gen 2 and young audiences, they see it as a forced netflix account — they see it as a forced netflix account which is how they view automatically public service i would — automatically public service i would say and this is obviously a big _ would say and this is obviously a big generalisation but my sense — a big generalisation but my sense is— a big generalisation but my sense is don't see it as a cultural— sense is don't see it as a cultural necessity of the same way that— cultural necessity of the same way that older generations do. There — way that older generations do. There is— way that older generations do. There is a _ way that older generations do. There is a man with a lot of plans of the manager of the sidemenjordan's schwarzenberger. And it's interesting how they started off making videos and are now making all sorts of different products and he is making the case that each one fits with what the sidemen are up to and at the moment, it seems to be going to plan. At the moment, it seems to be going to plan— at the moment, it seems to be going to plan. And when you go to visit those _ going to plan. And when you go to visit those studios, going to plan. And when you go to visit those studios, can going to plan. And when you go to visit those studios, can i to visit those studios, can i come to?— to visit those studios, can i come to?. , ,. . , come to? you definitely can. Brilliant _ come to? you definitely can. Brilliant. Thank— come to? you definitely can. Brilliant. Thank you come to? you definitely can. Brilliant. Thank you so come to? you definitely can. Brilliant. Thank you so much | brilliant. Thank you so much forjoining us on the media show. That's it for now. Goodbye. Show. That's it for now. Goodbye— show. That's it for now. Goodb e. . ~ goodbye. Bailai. And if you would like _ goodbye. Bailai. And if you would like to _ goodbye. Bailai. And if you would like to hear goodbye. Bailai. And if you would like to hear a goodbye. Bailai. And if you would like to hear a longer| would like to hear a longer version of today's show, search bbc the media show wherever you get your bbc podcasts. Hello. For many of us, friday was a pretty mild day, thanks to the south to southeasterly winds. The best of the sunshine was across england and wales. We had a top temperature of 18 degrees around the london area. But for scotland and northern ireland, there was a lot more cloud than there has been, bringing outbreaks of rain over recent houi’s. Now, on the satellite picture, you can see the weather front that's bringing in that zone of cloudier weather to the northwest of the uk. A strong jet stream continues to develop this weather system and it's going to be bringing some very heavy rain into the republic of ireland, where there's probably going to be some flooding across southern areas. The front itself is very slow—moving, so over the next few hours, we're going to keep the largely clear skies across england and wales. One or two fog patches possible in the east, where temperatures could dip as low as about 3 or 4 degrees in the coldest spots. But across the northwest of the uk, temperatures staying up into double figures because we've got that cloud. There's a fair breeze around here but we also have a bit of rain to come as well. Now, heading into the first part of saturday, there will be some pulses of heavy rain that work into northern ireland. The rain tending to come and go, so there might be some brighter spells for the afternoon here. Rain at times, too, for western and northern areas of scotland but away from that, for eastern and southern scotland, for the bulk of eastern wales and all of england, really, it should be a fine and a dry day with plenty of sunshine. It's going to be another mild one — top temperatures could hit 18 degrees once again. Now, these weather fronts will then push eastwards through saturday night, weakening as they run into our area of high pressure to the east, so just a few patches of light rain. There will be some damp weather, then, for some as we start off sunday morning but we've got a more pronounced band of heavier rain that, through the afternoon, will spread into northern ireland, this time wales and south west england getting a bit of a soaking, too. The south to southeasterly winds continue to drag up the mild air, so temperatures above average for most — looking at around 17 in london and cardiff and about 14 for edinburgh. Then, into next week, this area of low pressure is going to continue to fire showers or some longer spells of rain across the uk. Meanwhile, a low pressure, perhaps to our south, contains the remnants of hurricane kirk. Well, that could bring some very strong winds to parts of western europe. Western france looking vulnerable at the moment. But here in the uk, it's an unsettled—looking week. Quite windy at times with showers or longer spells of rain next week. Bye bye. Live from london. Blasts across beirut, as israel continues to strike the south of the lebanese capital. While hezbollah fighters say they're engaged with israeli troops near the border. This is the scene live in beirut. Smoke towering over the skyline after more explosions overnight. Kamala harris and donald trump step up their campaigning in america's key swing states. We'll assess where the presidential hopefuls stand one month out from election day. Hello, i'm lucy grey. Welcome to the programme. There have been more explosions in the lebanese capital — hours after the israeli army issued an evacuation order for dozens of areas in the city. In this footage from the last couple of hours —