the new leaderfor reform uk, nigel farage, has called for zero net migration. the conservatives responded today pledging a cap on the number of visas available. will labour match that commitment? we will look ahead to tonight to that debate, and the impact of nigel farage's formal declaration today that he is running as a candidate in margate on sea. a very warm welcome to the programme. we are just a short time away from the first set piece moment of the campaign leaders — rishi sunak and sir keir starmer arriving at media city, in salford a short time ago. you can argue whether these tv debate matter any more, but i assure you the leaders know the importance of it. both sides have been setting aside time for prep. dummy debates with colleagues. countless sessions thrashing out the various lines of attack, and defence. one senior labour figure said today that sir keir was heading back to his old job tonight "the country's chief prosecutor who will tonight put 14 years of tory rule in the dock". but the labour leader might also face some cross examination himself as his own plans come under more scrutiny. he knows he needs a clean bout tonight, nothing to unsettle the polls, the prime minister will be hoping he can roll back the years, to 2010 — the last time these debates shifted the dial. element you'll be told tonight by these two that the only choice you can make is between two old parties who have been running things for years. i'm here to persuade you that there is an alternative. i years. i'm here to persuade you that there is an alternative.— there is an alternative. i agree with nick- _ there is an alternative. i agree with nick- i — there is an alternative. i agree with nick. i agree _ there is an alternative. i agree with nick. i agree with - there is an alternative. i agree with nick. i agree with nick. . there is an alternative. i agree i with nick. i agree with nick. see, there is an alternative. i agree - with nick. i agree with nick. see, i agree _ with nick. i agree with nick. see, i agree with — with nick. i agree with nick. see, i agree with neck.— agree with neck. applause i a . ree agree with neck. applause i agree with _ agree with neck. applause i agree with nick. _ bbc deputy political editor vicki young joins us from salford, which is hosting the debate. the anticipation no doubt mounting. what does the prime minister have to do tonight? i what does the prime minister have to do toni . ht? ~ what does the prime minister have to do toniaht? ~ 3 what does the prime minister have to do toniaht? ,, �*, ., do tonight? i think it's worth lookin: do tonight? i think it's worth looking at — do tonight? i think it's worth looking at the _ do tonight? i think it's worth looking at the different - do tonight? i think it's worth | looking at the different place both these leaders are coming from. if you look at rishi sunak, firstly and obviously, he has a record to defend — and it's a pretty patchy one. also because is notjust his record, it's borisjohnson's, liz because is notjust his record, it's boris johnson's, liz truss's, there's been a pandemic, a cost—of—living crisis. so he has an awful lot he has to defend, and that makes it much more difficult for him. then if he starts promising, which he has done, about things he'll do in the future, of course lots of people will be saying, "why didn't you do that before?" and on top of that, opinion polls show he's a very long way behind. now conservative spinners here have started spinning, even though the debate hasn't even started. they say the polls are not the same as what they are hearing on the doorstep. they say people are a lot more undecided and haven't made up their mind about sir keir starmer. but there's no doubt rishi sunak cannot be content with a drawl tonight. he needs to win this because for all his policy announcements he's made, they haven't actually changed the polls, it doesn't seem people are listening or liking the message he's putting across. so he certainly wants to give the conservatives something to cheer about. the labour leader has just — something to cheer about. the labour leader hasjust been _ something to cheer about. the labour leader hasjust been handed _ something to cheer about. the labour leader hasjust been handed a - something to cheer about. the labour leader hasjust been handed a poll- leader has just been handed a poll which suggests he'll win more seats than he did and that landslide victory in 1997. when you're out on the campaign, does it feel like 1997? �* , , the campaign, does it feel like 1997? y , , , ., ., 1997? it's interesting because a lot of even labour _ 1997? it's interesting because a lot of even labour mps _ 1997? it's interesting because a lot of even labour mps say _ 1997? it's interesting because a lot of even labour mps say that - 1997? it's interesting because a lot of even labour mps say that it - of even labour mps say that it doesn't really. who knows what will happen? but there certainly is a very powerful feeling of a need for change, i think that's what mps very powerful feeling of a need for change, i think that's what mp5 on both sides can say about all this. you have a party that's been in power for a very long time, you have a party that's been in powerfor a very long time, then that tends to be what happens, and it's certainly what happened in 1997. now i think there are labour people who are actually pretty worried, and a very strange way, about those polls, about complacency, about knocking on doors and people saying they are undecided but you don't need me anyway because you'll win by so much. there is a job for keir starmer to do here. they'll say it's easier to analyse and complain about things the party has been doing for 14 years, but it does also have to maybe inspire people to come out and vote labour after all these years. so will he managed to do that? labour have been very cautious not to overpromise, they know the economic situation means there's not much money to throw around, they are trying not to commit to things they say they can't find. but there is a danger that the campaign is a bit too flat. it doesn't matter if your 20 points ahead, but the other thing about sir keir starmer is he's the leader of the opposition for a while, but a lot of politicians have said to me that the voters don't really get to know a leader until they've been through a general election contest. so for lots of people tuning in over the next few weeks, they won't know an awful lot about him. so the question is whether he shows some of that tonight and gives more of a sense of himself. the that tonight and gives more of a sense of himself.— that tonight and gives more of a sense of himself. the spin room behind you _ sense of himself. the spin room behind you is — sense of himself. the spin room behind you is filling _ sense of himself. the spin room behind you is filling up, - sense of himself. the spin room behind you is filling up, we - sense of himself. the spin room. behind you is filling up, we better let you go and settle in for the night. let's bring in our panel. mike, there are five of labour's top target seats in your patch in the northwest there. when you speak to people out on the doorstep, do they feel as if they know sir keir starmer? have they made a decision on the labour leader? i starmer? have they made a decision on the labour leader?— on the labour leader? i think people here in the northwest _ on the labour leader? i think people here in the northwest - _ on the labour leader? i think people here in the northwest - a _ on the labour leader? i think people here in the northwest - a lot - on the labour leader? i think people here in the northwest - a lot of- here in the northwest — a lot of people — here in the northwest — a lot of people stereotypes are keir starmer as being _ people stereotypes are keir starmer as being quite dull and boring. actually, — as being quite dull and boring. actually, a lot of people have come to realise _ actually, a lot of people have come to realise that's not necessarily a bad thing — to realise that's not necessarily a bad thing i— to realise that's not necessarily a bad thing. i think if you look at it from _ bad thing. i think if you look at it from the — bad thing. i think if you look at it from the other angle, if you see people's— from the other angle, if you see people's opinion of rishi sunak in the past — people's opinion of rishi sunak in the past 13—14 years of conservative government, people have started to lose trust— government, people have started to lose trust here in the northwest. a lot lose trust here in the northwest. a tot of— lose trust here in the northwest. a lot of people, for example, and parts _ lot of people, for example, and parts of— lot of people, for example, and parts of lancaster that were for a lon- parts of lancaster that were for a tong time — parts of lancaster that were for a long time traditional labour seats, places— long time traditional labour seats, places like — long time traditional labour seats, places like burnley didn't have a conservative mp for over 100 years — in 2019. _ conservative mp for over 100 years — in 2019, people in burnley backed boris _ in 2019, people in burnley backed borisjohnson, in large part due to things— borisjohnson, in large part due to things like — borisjohnson, in large part due to things like his personality, because they fett— things like his personality, because they felt like he was a character, they felt like he was a character, they fett— they felt like he was a character, they felt like he was a character, they felt like they understood him more _ they felt like they understood him more. now, ithink they felt like they understood him more. now, i think an awful lot of people _ more. now, i think an awful lot of people are — more. now, i think an awful lot of people are saying, "you know what, we've _ people are saying, "you know what, we've had _ people are saying, "you know what, we've had an — people are saying, "you know what, we've had an awful lot of turbulence particularly — we've had an awful lot of turbulence particularly over the last few years — particularly over the last few years. maybe somebody like keir starmer, — years. maybe somebody like keir starmer, i— years. maybe somebody like keir starmer, i don't know him that well, he's not _ starmer, idon't know him that well, he's not that— starmer, i don't know him that well, he's not that relatable, he's a london — he's not that relatable, he's a london mp, he's held quite senior 'obs london mp, he's held quite senior jobs in _ london mp, he's held quite senior jobs in his— london mp, he's held quite senior jobs in his life, i don't have much in common— jobs in his life, i don't have much in common with hope, but may be at the minute _ in common with hope, but may be at the minute boring isn't a bad thing?�* — the minute boring isn't a bad thin ." . ., i. the minute boring isn't a bad thin~." ., ., , the minute boring isn't a bad thin ." ., ., i. , ., thing." charlotte, you been down in rochester today, _ thing." charlotte, you been down in rochester today, what _ thing." charlotte, you been down in rochester today, what do _ thing." charlotte, you been down in rochester today, what do people i thing." charlotte, you been down in i rochester today, what do people want to hear tonight from this debate that you've spoken to? it’s to hear tonight from this debate that you've spoken to? it's really interesting _ that you've spoken to? it's really interesting to _ that you've spoken to? it's really interesting to chat _ that you've spoken to? it's really interesting to chat to _ that you've spoken to? it's really interesting to chat to people - that you've spoken to? it's really i interesting to chat to people around and about the southeast, because of course the southeast has long been tory territory, it's known as true blue, and after the 2019 election, after the 55 seats that went conservative — but you speak to people and that's not the view you get. i was speaking to people in rochester today and there were issues that people are worried about, things like the nhs, public services. one person i spoke to me said, "we want to pay more taxes to improve our public services." these box pops aren't scientific, but i think it gives a sense of — there is real nuance across our region at the moment, i think. the real nuance across our region at the moment, ithink.— real nuance across our region at the moment, ithink. moment, i think. the news ahead of the debate was _ moment, i think. the news ahead of the debate was all _ moment, i think. the news ahead of the debate was all about _ the debate was all about nigel farage today and his first appearance in clacton, not farfrom where charlotte is. the news, ahead of this debate, was all about nigel farage and his first appearance in clacton. the new leader of reform uk has lit a torch under this campaign, promising a revolt that has sent the conservatives into full—blown panic mode. the gloomy front pages for rishi sunak this morning were fuelled by that announcement and by those two major polls, out yesterday, which predict a historic drubbing for the tories. we don't tend to focus on single polls — not usually — but the yougov mrp poll predicts a 194—seat labour majority, with senior tories — likejeremy hunt, jacob rees—mogg, penny mordaunt — all losing their seats. perhaps no coincidince, then, faced with the farage onslaught that the conservatives were out today with a new pledge — a cap on the number of visas that will be issued each year to migrant workers. what we've seen with labour, who have voted 139 times against any and every border control measure we put forward, a complete open—door policy does not work. it does not work for local communities, it doesn't work for local authorities when they are trying to plan for public services. we are the only party with a credible plan to professionally manage migration so that it supports the british economy without putting undue pressure on local communities stop. net migration, the difference in the number of people immigrating to the uk and emigrating, decreased last year, but remains higher than at the start of this parliament. the figure to december to 2023 was 685,000 - that is a fall of approximately 10% from the ons�*s updated estimate of 764,000, for the year to december 2022. you'll probably hear rishi sunak refer to that 10% fall tonight. that said, net migration is still nearly four times higher than it was in 2019, when the conservative party said it would bring "overall numbers" down in its manifesto. nigel farage says the conservatives have betrayed the trust of the british people. we we re we were told we would get control of our borders — we were told we would get control of our borders we _ we were told we would get control of our borders. we were _ we were told we would get control of our borders. we were told the - our borders. we were told the immigration _ our borders. we were told the immigration numbers- our borders. we were told the immigration numbers would . our borders. we were told the - immigration numbers would come our borders. we were told the _ immigration numbers would come down. they have _ immigration numbers would come down. they have exploded. _ immigration numbers would come down. they have exploded. so _ immigration numbers would come down. they have exploded. so i— immigration numbers would come down. they have exploded. so i feel— they have exploded. so i feel betrayed _ they have exploded. so i feel betrayed by— they have exploded. so i feel betrayed by them. _ they have exploded. so i feel betrayed by them. millions i they have exploded. so i feel betrayed by them. millions of they have exploded. so i feel- betrayed by them. millions of voters feel betrayed by them. millions of voters feet betrayed — betrayed by them. millions of voters feet betrayed by— betrayed by them. millions of voters feel betrayed by them. _ betrayed by them. millions of voters feel betrayed by them. and - betrayed by them. millions of voters feel betrayed by them. and even - feel betrayed by them. and even though— feel betrayed by them. and even though there _ feel betrayed by them. and even though there are _ feel betrayed by them. and even though there are some _ feel betrayed by them. and even though there are some people i feel betrayed by them. and even though there are some people inj feel betrayed by them. and even - though there are some people in the conservative — though there are some people in the conservative party— though there are some people in the conservative party who _ though there are some people in the conservative party who i _ though there are some people in the conservative party who i fought - though there are some people in the conservative party who i fought with| conservative party who i fought with during _ conservative party who i fought with during brexit. — conservative party who i fought with during brexit, i'm— conservative party who i fought with during brexit, i'm afraid _ conservative party who i fought with during brexit, i'm afraid they're - during brexit, i'm afraid they're part of— during brexit, i'm afraid they're part of a — during brexit, i'm afraid they're part of a party— during brexit, i'm afraid they're part of a party who _ during brexit, i'm afraid they're part of a party who are - during brexit, i'm afraid they're part of a party who are well- during brexit, i'm afraid they'rel part of a party who are well past their— part of a party who are well past their sett— part of a party who are well past their sell by— part of a party who are well past their sell by date, _ part of a party who are well past their sell by date, the _ part of a party who are well past their sell by date, the brand - part of a party who are well past their sell by date, the brand is l their sell by date, the brand is ruined. — their sell by date, the brand is ruined. they— their sell by date, the brand is ruined, they blot _ their sell by date, the brand is ruined, they blot the - their sell by date, the brand is ruined, they blot the —— - their sell by date, the brand is ruined, they blot the —— lost . their sell by date, the brand is i ruined, they blot the —— lost the election— ruined, they blot the —— lost the election already. _ ruined, they blot the —— lost the election already. and _ ruined, they blot the —— lost the election already. and what - ruined, they blot the —— lost the election already. and what i'm l election already. and what i'm trying — election already. and what i'm trying to— election already. and what i'm trying to do— election already. and what i'm trying to do is— election already. and what i'm trying to do is to _ election already. and what i'm trying to do is to establish - election already. and what i'm trying to do is to establish a l election already. and what i'm i trying to do is to establish a voice of opposition _ trying to do is to establish a voice of opposition to _ trying to do is to establish a voice of opposition to it _ trying to do is to establish a voice of opposition to it will— trying to do is to establish a voice of opposition to it will be - trying to do is to establish a voice of opposition to it will be a - trying to do is to establish a voice | of opposition to it will be a labour government that _ of opposition to it will be a labour government that otherwise - of opposition to it will be a labour government that otherwise might| of opposition to it will be a labour. government that otherwise might be out of— government that otherwise might be out of controt — charlotte, some will say the biggest thing in recent politics is brexit, and one man has done more to bring that about, nigel farage. like him or not, when he speaks to the country, the electorate moves, and we saw that today with the crowds that came out in clacton. big crowds in clacton, that came out in clacton. big crowds in clacton. yes- _ that came out in clacton. big crowds in clacton, yes. he _ that came out in clacton. big crowds in clacton, yes. he was _ that came out in clacton. big crowds in clacton, yes. he was in _ that came out in clacton. big crowds in clacton, yes. he was in our- in clacton, yes. he was in our region last week in dover launching reform uk's policy on immigration. and it was really interesting to see him there — i went to interview him and we are standing on a balcony just outside the hotel he was launching the policy and, and we did this interview — and it was interesting to see the attention he was attracting. people were driving, cycling and walking past and stopping, and there were mixed reactions. some people were shouting words of encouragement, saying they were very supportive of him — there was a swear word i won't repeat on air that i heard from a man cycling past. so he's continuing to attract attention and divide opinion right across the country.— attention and divide opinion right across the country. mike, one of his to to across the country. mike, one of his go to sound — across the country. mike, one of his go to sound bites _ across the country. mike, one of his go to sound bites on _ across the country. mike, one of his go to sound bites on migration - across the country. mike, one of his go to sound bites on migration is i go to sound bites on migration is that there are streets around the country, in oldham, perhaps burnley where people don't speak english. some parts of our country where he says there's not enough assimilation. is he right? i says there's not enough assimilation. is he right? i think it's an old _ assimilation. is he right? i think it's an old stereotype. _ assimilation. is he right? i think it's an old stereotype. look, - assimilation. is he right? i think it's an old stereotype. look, in. it's an old stereotype. look, in lancashire, _ it's an old stereotype. look, in lancashire, we are no strangers to migration, — lancashire, we are no strangers to migration, it's not a new thing. i think— migration, it's not a new thing. i think particularly around the brexit campaign, — think particularly around the brexit campaign, it was quite high up people's— campaign, it was quite high up people's agenda when you talk about what issues matter to them. at the minute, _ what issues matter to them. at the minute, it— what issues matter to them. at the minute, it doesn't seem to be that high _ minute, it doesn't seem to be that high there — minute, it doesn't seem to be that high. there is an awful lot of community cohesion around the northwest. there is the odd issue, but talking — northwest. there is the odd issue, but talking about no go zones and things— but talking about no go zones and things like that, it'sjust not something that you do see. and i think— something that you do see. and i think people are worried about our public— think people are worried about our public services at the minute, about the pressure that things like migration could potentially put on our public— migration could potentially put on our public services. but also, it's wider— our public services. but also, it's wider than — our public services. but also, it's wider than that — people are worried about— wider than that — people are worried about the _ wider than that — people are worried about the amount of funding that's coming _ about the amount of funding that's coming from central government into local authorities, coming from central government into localauthorities, into coming from central government into local authorities, into local services _ local authorities, into local services. so when you talk to people about _ services. so when you talk to people about what _ services. so when you talk to people about what services matter to them in the _ about what services matter to them in the northwest, migration comes up, in the northwest, migration comes up. but _ in the northwest, migration comes up. but top — in the northwest, migration comes up, but top of the list is nhs and cost—of—living. there's pockets of the northwest warehousing is a particular issue. migration is far down _ particular issue. migration is far down that— particular issue. migration is far down that list. gn particular issue. migration is far down that list.— particular issue. migration is far down that list. . ,., down that list. on that point, when --eole down that list. on that point, when people talk — down that list. on that point, when people talk about _ down that list. on that point, when people talk about public _ down that list. on that point, when people talk about public services, i people talk about public services, do they recognise out there that legal migration does contribute to our nurses and care workers, those trades intrinsic to our economy? both parties even today, while migration has been very much the central theme, would admit that we do need some migration. definitely, and i think one _ do need some migration. definitely, and i think one of _ do need some migration. definitely, and i think one of the _ do need some migration. definitely, and i think one of the things - do need some migration. definitely, and i think one of the things that - and i think one of the things that really— and i think one of the things that really highlighted that to people here in— really highlighted that to people here in the northwest was the pandemic. i think people realised that those front line workers come from _ that those front line workers come from tots — that those front line workers come from lots of different backgrounds, and without people from different parts _ and without people from different parts of _ and without people from different parts of the world coming here to the northwest, a lot of those services _ the northwest, a lot of those services wouldn't be able to function _ services wouldn't be able to function. there's the flip side to the argument that people do worry an increase _ the argument that people do worry an increase in— the argument that people do worry an increase in migration would put more pressure _ increase in migration would put more pressure on _ increase in migration would put more pressure on public services that are already— pressure on public services that are already struggling — but people really— already struggling — but people really do — already struggling — but people really do realise that without migration, particularly in the health— migration, particularly in the health and social care sector, services — health and social care sector, services as— health and social care sector, services as things are nowjust wouldn't — services as things are nowjust wouldn't function. services as things are now 'ust wouldn't function.i services as things are now 'ust wouldn't function. charlotte, a finalthought, _ wouldn't function. charlotte, a final thought, if _ wouldn't function. charlotte, a final thought, if you _ wouldn't function. charlotte, a final thought, if you look- wouldn't function. charlotte, a final thought, if you look at. wouldn't function. charlotte, a l final thought, if you look at this yougov poll which shows the conservative taking a thumping, the reason the likes ofjohn kurt has looked at it seriously is that it demonstrates where there is very close competition for the conservative party, things are most differently moving against them. we saw in the council elections last year. how many candidates do you think reform uk could maybe feel down there, and would it make a big difference to the political map across the southeast? it’s difference to the political map across the southeast?- across the southeast? it's an interesting — across the southeast? it's an interesting one _ across the southeast? it's an interesting one because - across the southeast? it's an interesting one because i - across the southeast? it's an i interesting one because i asked nigel farage that last week when he came to dover, and he wouldn't commit to saying where they could win or how many candidates they would field. so i didn't get a clear answerfrom him on that. much of the southeast voted for brexit at the time of the referendum, and there was quite a strong ukip support— the party at nigel farage was involved with before. so there's been support for the party before, there was a ukip mp in rochester. nigel farage himself stood to be an mp in south and it not far from himself stood to be an mp in south and it not farfrom here in 2018, but didn't get elected. it's difficult to say, there are other opposition parties who are really hoping to make gains in our region — labourare hoping to make gains in our region — labour are looking all around east kent, medway, and in places like hastings. the lib dems are trying to make way and what they call the blue wall, so places like lewis and eastbourne, in sussex. so there opposition parties who have really got their eyes on certain seats in the southeast, and for these opposition parties like reform uk, labour, the greens and the lib dems, there's a lot to gain for them and potentially a lot to lose for the conservatives.— potentially a lot to lose for the conservatives. , ., . ., conservatives. indeed so. charlotte and michael — conservatives. indeed so. charlotte and michael stay _ conservatives. indeed so. charlotte and michael stay with _ conservatives. indeed so. charlotte and michael stay with us _ conservatives. indeed so. charlotte and michael stay with us before - conservatives. indeed so. charlotte and michael stay with us before we | and michael stay with us before we go to the break, let me show you the list of candidates for clacton and the constituents in there. the website will perhaps have a complete list once they are all confirmed, but there you have the current runners and writers. around the world and across the uk, this is bbc news. not everyone out in clacton—on—sea was there to pay homage to nigel farage. this is the moment outside wetherspoons that someone threw a milshake at the reform leader. which might have entertained his opponents, but it is a worrying element of the campaign. there is a report from politics home today that all election candidates will be offered basic security throughout the campaign for the first time. the electoral commission say 43% of candidates have faced abuse and that some are seeking counselling due to their experience. this was the tweet this morning from the veterans ministerjonny mercer — no stranger to hostile environments. morning, plymouth, it's another fantastic day on the campaign trail, everyone's feeling really good. no, they're not, really, it's pretty hard going, these general elections, i'll be honest with you, it's raining, everyone's pretty tired, and yes, it was a pretty bleak day. it's a serious issue because people in a democracy have to be able to run an approach of voters. the only people who get close to candidates day in and day out are our regional correspondence. have you seen this abuse on our doorstep and is it worse and it was in previous elections? i and is it worse and it was in previous elections?- and is it worse and it was in previous elections? i think it's got steadily worse _ previous elections? i think it's got steadily worse over _ previous elections? i think it's got steadily worse over the _ previous elections? i think it's got steadily worse over the past - previous elections? i think it's got steadily worse over the past ten l steadily worse over the past ten years _ steadily worse over the past ten years or— steadily worse over the past ten years or so _ steadily worse over the past ten years or so that i've been doing thisjob — years or so that i've been doing thisjob i— years or so that i've been doing thisjob. i know mps who have previously— thisjob. i know mps who have previously stood down because of the kind of— previously stood down because of the kind of abuse they were getting— often _ kind of abuse they were getting— often this— kind of abuse they were getting— often this takes the form of online abuse. _ often this takes the form of online abuse, tweets, e—mails, but it also takes _ abuse, tweets, e—mails, but it also takes place — abuse, tweets, e—mails, but it also takes place online. i know mps who have looked at a house and then suddenly— have looked at a house and then suddenly remembered there was someone — suddenly remembered there was someone on that street that abused them _ someone on that street that abused them in _ someone on that street that abused them in the past, so they didn't buy them in the past, so they didn't buy the house — them in the past, so they didn't buy the house i— them in the past, so they didn't buy the house. i know mps and candidates to say— the house. i know mps and candidates to say thistl— the house. i know mps and candidates to say this'll be the last time they stand _ to say this'll be the last time they stand - _ to say this'll be the last time they stand — these are fairly young peopte — stand — these are fairly young people who could have another 20—30 years in _ people who could have another 20—30 years in politics ahead of them — because — years in politics ahead of them — because of— years in politics ahead of them — because of this abuse they are getting — because of this abuse they are getting. it's an awful lot worse for women _ getting. it's an awful lot worse for women from ethnic minority backgrounds. politicians do need to be held _ backgrounds. politicians do need to be held to — backgrounds. politicians do need to be held to account, they observe the understand _ be held to account, they observe the understand that — however, there is a really— understand that — however, there is a really fine — understand that — however, there is a really fine line between what's a robust _ a really fine line between what's a robust argument and what's abuse. and a _ robust argument and what's abuse. and a lot _ robust argument and what's abuse. and a lot of— robust argument and what's abuse. and a lot of stuff that politicians of all _ and a lot of stuff that politicians of all levels show me now— and this is really— of all levels show me now— and this is really creeping into local government, as well, fairly low level— government, as well, fairly low level counsellors who don't really -et level counsellors who don't really get paid, — level counsellors who don't really get paid, they get an allowance of £3000 _ get paid, they get an allowance of £3000 a — get paid, they get an allowance of £3000 a year to be on a local council— £3000 a year to be on a local council - _ £3000 a year to be on a local council — who are getting all sorts of horrific— council — who are getting all sorts of horrific e—mails, tweets, things said to _ of horrific e—mails, tweets, things said to them on doorstep. ten years a-o, said to them on doorstep. ten years ago. it— said to them on doorstep. ten years ago, it wasn't the same, it was a lot more — ago, it wasn't the same, it was a lot more civil than it is now. and i think— lot more civil than it is now. and i think it _ lot more civil than it is now. and i think it has — lot more civil than it is now. and i think it has a lot to answer for why a lot— think it has a lot to answer for why a lot more — think it has a lot to answer for why a lot more young people, women, people _ a lot more young people, women, people from ethnic minority backgrounds choose not to get involved — backgrounds choose not to get involved in politics and opt for other— involved in politics and opt for other career options. "tough going," he says. i am not sure whether he's referring there to the level of support, or the level of abuse. is plenty of reporting today of revolt amongst conservative circles of conservative mps who think the prime minister went to early. do you pick any of that up when you're around conservative mps? i pick any of that up when you're around conservative mps? i think there is some _ around conservative mps? i think there is some frustration, - around conservative mps? i think there is some frustration, yeah, l around conservative mps? i think| there is some frustration, yeah, a lot of the mp5 that i'd been speaking to in the run—up to the election hadn't expected the election to come up now, the expected october or november. and those mps particularly in seats that may well be marginal who are having to really fight to hold onto those seats, i think there is a sense of frustration. on that point of abuse, it's really interesting because it's something i've noticed in the region as well, speaking to mp5 over the years, they've really felt they faced abuse and it's probably got worse with social media — but also in person as well, and a lot of them have put up security measures at their offices and not revealing in advance where they are going when they go to do visits or constituency matters. so it's a wonder really that the people are still keen to stand as candidates in the election. but yes, on your point about conservative mps, there certainly has been some frustration amongst the candidates that i've been picking up. it’s the candidates that i've been picking up— the candidates that i've been -ickinau-. h . picking up. it's true, a milkshake is one thing. _ picking up. it's true, a milkshake is one thing, shouting _ picking up. it's true, a milkshake is one thing, shouting another, l picking up. it's true, a milkshake l is one thing, shouting another, but we don't want anotherjo cox or david amess. you can protect the constituency but a lot of people in these consistencies know where local candidates live, so it's becoming a serious issue that we should tackle head—on. i should just say before we go to break the actor that head—to—head debate tonight, there'll be another one on itv involving the leaders of the liberal democrats, the snp, reform uk and the greens. the lib dem leader sir ed davey said he is not going purely to provide commentary on the main debate. instead, he wants to talk about his own policies. the lib dems unveiled a new policy today to introduce free personal care — similar to the system that operates in scotland. plenty of analysis on that note doubt on stage later on tonight on itv. and of course, plenty more on the bbc website if you want to look at some of these policies that are now being put out there. just enough time to thank mike and charlotte for their contributions tonight, thank you for your time. on the other side of the break, we will hand you over to rajini for the world debate. hello. some decidedly cool air has been sinking southwards across the uk during today. tonight is certainly going to be quite a lot chillier than last night was, and over the next few days, it remains cool and breezy, a mix of sunshine and showers, cold enough over the very highest ground in scotland for some of those showers to be wintry. so during today, we've seen these frontal systems pushing southwards and eastwards. still a little bit of rain lingering for a time in the far south east. but behind those weather fronts, we are getting into this feed of cool air from the northwest. pretty brisk winds actually across the northern half of the uk. there's the last of that weather front clearing the southeast corner. and then overnight, yes, some showers, particularly up towards the northwest, but some lengthy, clear spells allowing temperatures to drop widely down into single digits, maybe very close to freezing across parts of northern scotland. so certainly a chillier start to tomorrow morning than we had this morning. but it should be a bright start for many with some spells of sunshine. further south, not too many showers. further north, particularly northern england, northern ireland and scotland, there will be frequent showers, which, as i've mentioned, could be wintry over the very highest ground in scotland, say above 800 metres elevation. it's going to be windy across the northern half of the uk. breezy further south. but in the sunshine in the south, not feeling too bad, 17 degrees celsius, just 11 celsius for stornoway. average temperatures at this time of year should be around 15—20 celsius, so, actually, these values are touch below the average for the time of year. now, as we move into thursday, this area of low pressure will still be to the north of us. where you're closest to the center of the low across northern england, northern ireland and more especially scotland, you will continue to see frequent showers, again, wintry over the highest scottish mountains. further south, not as many showers, more spells of sunshine. temperatures, again, 11—17 celsius, maybe getting up to 18 celsiusby this stage. now for friday, it looks like we'll see the showers joining together into a longer spell of rain for a time across parts of scotland. more cloud further south as well, a cloudier day likely on friday with the odd shower. temperatures maybe getting up to 18—19 celsius, but still really struggling across the north and the northwest of scotland. into the weekend, it turns a little bit less cool. temperatures climbing a touch. mostly dry in the south, some showers further north. this is bbc news. the headlines. rishi sunak and keir starmer prepare to go head—to—head in a tv debate for the first time in this general election campaign. just 30 minutes to go until the leaders take to the stage here in salford, in what could be a pivotal moment in this general election campaign. studio: and other news, major london hospitals are hit by a cyber attack, leading to cancelled operations and emergency patients being moved. tests have revealed a newborn baby discovered and then east london park earlier this year is the sister of two other children abandoned by the same parents. we set hello. now, we arejust under 30 minutes same parents. we set hello. now, we are just under 30 minutes away from the first leaders debate of the general election campaign. rishi sunak and keir starmer will go head—to—head in front of a live studio audience in an hour—long programme on itv. today's debate is part of several televised discussions involving political leaders, and using different formats in the run—up to the vote on the 4th ofjuly. the bbc is hosting a seven party debate on friday. night will have all of the reaction and analysis from the spin room