relax aches to say we were going to relax aches to say we were going to relax the rules on social distancing for, for kids, for young people, would have been a very very peculiar signal to send out at the very moment when we were trying to get, we were desperately trying to get the existing measures to work and we were on the point of toughening them up. so i think that probably explains, that probably answers the, your question. explains, that probably answers the, your question-— your question. what you are saying is that matt — your question. what you are saying is that matt hancock _ your question. what you are saying is that matt hancock was _ your question. what you are saying is that matt hancock was right - your question. what you are saying | is that matt hancock was right when he said. _ is that matt hancock was right when he said. to — is that matt hancock was right when he said, to helen waitfully this exchange, that number ten doesn't want to— exchange, that number ten doesn't want to shift an inch. he is right ahout— want to shift an inch. he is right about that _ want to shift an inch. he is right about that. i want to shift an inch. he is right about that-— want to shift an inch. he is right about that. ., �* , ., , about that. i don't remember, to be frankl about that. i don't remember, to be frank i don't — about that. i don't remember, to be frank i don't remember _ about that. i don't remember, to be frank i don't remember a _ frank i don't remember a conversation about it but i can see why we would have been reluctant at that stage, given what was going on, in the pandemic.— in the pandemic. finally, mr johnson. — in the pandemic. finally, mr johnson. i — in the pandemic. finally, mr johnson, i hope _ in the pandemic. finally, mr johnson, i hope again - in the pandemic. finally, mr johnson, i hope again this . in the pandemic. finally, mr johnson, i hope again this is johnson, i hope again this is uncontentious, taking a global view of the _ uncontentious, taking a global view of the position, although children had fewer— of the position, although children had fewer health risks from covid than adults, particularly older and more _ than adults, particularly older and more vulnerable adults, do you agree that children suffered disproportionately from the government's non—pharmaceutical intervention to contain the virus, both— intervention to contain the virus, both in_ intervention to contain the virus, both in the — intervention to contain the virus, both in the short and long—term? -term? _ both in the short and long—term? —term? taking an overall view of the pandemic? _ —term? taking an overall view of the pandemic? |— -term? taking an overall view of the andemic? . , ,., , -term? taking an overall view of the andemic? . , , ., ., ., pandemic? i absolutely do and that is wh we pandemic? i absolutely do and that is why we put _ pandemic? i absolutely do and that is why we put a _ pandemic? i absolutely do and that is why we put a lot _ pandemic? i absolutely do and that is why we put a lot of _ pandemic? i absolutely do and that is why we put a lot of money - pandemic? i absolutely do and that is why we put a lot of money into . is why we put a lot of money into cahms, into mental health services, thatis cahms, into mental health services, that is why the government decided to have a big catch up programme, a big tutoring programme, not as big perhaps as i would have loved to see but i think it was an important thing to do, and, the short answer is yes, i do think the educational detriment was a huge, huge consideration, the loss of life chances, for young people, has to be put new the scales when you are making these appalling choices, as you say, about mpis, and wizards were very much in our minds but the priority was to save i lives. the in . ui priority was to save i lives. the inquiry has _ priority was to save i lives. the inquiry has understandably decided that that _ inquiry has understandably decided that that is a matter to be properly explored _ that that is a matter to be properly explored in— that that is a matter to be properly explored in 2025 in a separate module — explored in 2025 in a separate module so i don't accept what you have _ module so i don't accept what you have just — module so i don't accept what you have just said, in particular in relation — have just said, in particular in relation to— have just said, in particular in relation to the catch up programme but i relation to the catch up programme but i will_ relation to the catch up programme but i will have to deal with that on another— but i will have to deal with that on another occasion, do you understand? ithink— another occasion, do you understand? i think i_ another occasion, do you understand? i think i have, — another occasion, do you understand? i think i have, it was pretty big, but i think that it, we had, it was a, it was a big priority of mine. i understand your answer. you have put your marker done mr menon. thank you. mr freedman. mr your marker done mr menon. thank you. mr freedman.— your marker done mr menon. thank you. mr freedman. mrjohnson, i act for national — you. mr freedman. mrjohnson, i act for national disabled _ you. mr freedman. mrjohnson, i act for national disabled people's - for national disabled people's organisations, they too want to ask you about _ organisations, they too want to ask you about your repeated comments in meetings _ you about your repeated comments in meetings and on whatsapp messages about older people, for example, they are — about older people, for example, they are going to die any way, have had a _ they are going to die any way, have had a good — they are going to die any way, have had a good innings and should accept their fate _ had a good innings and should accept their fate rather than destroying their fate rather than destroying the economy. now, please leave aside for a moment, what was done, by your government, _ for a moment, what was done, by your government, and what you say you truly _ government, and what you say you truly care _ government, and what you say you truly care about, and no doubt the chair— truly care about, and no doubt the chair wiii— truly care about, and no doubt the chair will look at all that evidence. ourfirst chair will look at all that evidence. our first question, chair will look at all that evidence. ourfirst question, in your— evidence. ourfirst question, in your choice— evidence. ourfirst question, in your choice of words, to your government, and advisers were you not being _ government, and advisers were you not being shamefully ageist against those _ not being shamefully ageist against those in _ not being shamefully ageist against those in later life and normalising their premature death. no. those in later life and normalising their premature death.— their premature death. no. i was doinu m their premature death. no. i was doing my best — their premature death. no. i was doing my best to _ their premature death. no. i was doing my best to reflect - their premature death. no. i was doing my best to reflect what - their premature death. no. i was| doing my best to reflect what was their premature death. no. i was l doing my best to reflect what was i am afraid a debate that was very live, and live, i may say, with a great number of old people who would make these points to me, and i wanted to get the answers and we have discussed earlier on today, the down sides of the segmentation approach, that wasn't really going to be enough, but people found that very counter intuitive. they didn't understand why segmentation would be be enough and you had to explain it to them. i be enough and you had to explain it to them. ., , , to them. i did not give permillings for ou to to them. i did not give permillings for you to ask— to them. i did not give permillings for you to ask the _ to them. i did not give permillings for you to ask the question - for you to ask the question shamefuiiy— for you to ask the question shamefully ageist. - for you to ask the question shamefully ageist. just- for you to ask the question shamefully ageist.- for you to ask the question shamefully ageist. just so that eo - le shamefully ageist. just so that people understand, _ shamefully ageist. just so that people understand, can - shamefully ageist. just so that people understand, can we - shamefully ageist. just so that. people understand, can we please avoid, everybody avoid language i haven't approved which could be considered emotive.— haven't approved which could be considered emotive. absolutely my lad . and considered emotive. absolutely my lady- and yes _ considered emotive. absolutely my lady- and yes i _ considered emotive. absolutely my lady. and yes i accept _ considered emotive. absolutely my lady. and yes i accept and - considered emotive. absolutely my lady. and yes i accept and i - lady. and yes i accept and i apologise, it wasn't my lady's choice — apologise, it wasn't my lady's choice of— apologise, it wasn't my lady's choice of words. it apologise, it wasn't my lady's choice of words.— apologise, it wasn't my lady's choice of words. it is what i call a forensic flourish. _ choice of words. it is what i call a forensic flourish. so _ choice of words. it is what i call a forensic flourish. so be _ choice of words. it is what i call a forensic flourish. so be it - choice of words. it is what i call a forensic flourish. so be it my - choice of words. it is what i call a | forensic flourish. so be it my lady but nevertheless _ forensic flourish. so be it my lady but nevertheless reflect - forensic flourish. so be it my lady but nevertheless reflect on - forensic flourish. so be it my lady but nevertheless reflect on your. but nevertheless reflect on your answer — but nevertheless reflect on your answerjust now, and your answer to mr keith _ answerjust now, and your answer to mr keith this — answerjust now, and your answer to mr keith this morning about the various— mr keith this morning about the various comments i know you feel sensitive — various comments i know you feel sensitive about. ijust want to paraphrase what we understood to be your answer, as the lay person in the room. — your answer, as the lay person in the room. i— your answer, as the lay person in the room, ias your answer, as the lay person in the room, i as the your answer, as the lay person in the room, ias the prime your answer, as the lay person in the room, i as the prime minister who had — the room, i as the prime minister who had to — the room, i as the prime minister who had to take the ultimate decision— who had to take the ultimate decision was voicing these ideas about— decision was voicing these ideas about older people, to deal with counter— about older people, to deal with counter arguments out there in the public— counter arguments out there in the public domain, that only the elderly should _ public domain, that only the elderly should be _ public domain, that only the elderly should be shielded. no, public domain, that only the elderly should be shielded.— public domain, that only the elderly should be shielded. no, not only the elderl , should be shielded. no, not only the elderly. forgive _ should be shielded. no, not only the elderly, forgive me. _ should be shielded. no, not only the elderly, forgive me. yes. _ should be shielded. no, not only the elderly, forgive me. yes. no, - should be shielded. no, not only the elderly, forgive me. yes. no, the, l elderly, forgive me. yes. no, the, so, from elderly, forgive me. yes. no, the, so. from the _ elderly, forgive me. yes. no, the, so, from the beginning, we had a massive programme of shielding for the vulnerable, as you know. about 1.3, 1.5, ultimate the vulnerable, as you know. about 1.3,1.5, ultimate about 2.5 million people, some of whom were shielding for an incredibly long time and it was a miserable, lonely business. given all the detriments that people endured, the inability to get the medical health care they might need, that all the down sides of that, it was, i think, that all the down sides of that, it was, ithink, reasonable that all the down sides of that, it was, i think, reasonable to think about other approaches and whether the continued lockdowns were affected. but inned the end, we had no alternative. flit affected. but inned the end, we had no alternative.— no alternative. of course, but for: ive no alternative. of course, but forgive me. — no alternative. of course, but forgive me. i— no alternative. of course, but forgive me, i want— no alternative. of course, but forgive me, i want to - no alternative. of course, but forgive me, i want to take - no alternative. of course, but| forgive me, i want to take you no alternative. of course, but - forgive me, i want to take you back to these _ forgive me, i want to take you back to these comments, once we get into august— to these comments, once we get into august and _ to these comments, once we get into august and september and these comments mostly made in october, you have had _ comments mostly made in october, you have had those discussions about how a more _ have had those discussions about how a more dedicated form of segregation for the _ a more dedicated form of segregation for the elderly and their households is not _ for the elderly and their households is not going to work because the virus _ is not going to work because the virus will— is not going to work because the virus will break out of the shielding system and you are taken to the _ shielding system and you are taken to the whatsapp messages by mr keith _ to the whatsapp messages by mr keith so — to the whatsapp messages by mr keith. so how does your answer to counsel— keith. so how does your answer to counsel to — keith. so how does your answer to counsel to the inquiry this morning and to— counsel to the inquiry this morning and to me — counsel to the inquiry this morning and to me just now, about you butting — and to me just now, about you putting arguments for only older people _ putting arguments for only older people being segregated in some form of supershielding, therefore have anything — of supershielding, therefore have anything to do with your repeated assertions— anything to do with your repeated assertions that old people are going to die _ assertions that old people are going to die any— assertions that old people are going to die any way, that they have had a good _ to die any way, that they have had a good innings and we should not sacrifice — good innings and we should not sacrifice the economy because of them? _ sacrifice the economy because of them? ~ ., ., , sacrifice the economy because of them? ~ . ., , ., sacrifice the economy because of them? . . . , ., ., , ., them? what i am trying to, to put to them? what i am trying to, to put to the scientific— them? what i am trying to, to put to the scientific opinion, _ them? what i am trying to, to put to the scientific opinion, is _ them? what i am trying to, to put to the scientific opinion, is the, - them? what i am trying to, to put to the scientific opinion, is the, i - the scientific opinion, is the, i want to understand first of all who is, who the potential victims of covid are at that particular moment, and as everybody knows, it is people of all ages and i have seen it for myself, because i have seen some figures i think for the average median age of covid victims, i am trying to understand what alternatives we have, and i am reflecting a, a widespread view, that there must be some twin track strategy, there must be some way in which we can somehow avoid this damage to the entire economy, and society, while looking after the interests of the elderly, and what i am trying to get from the, from the scientists, is, you know from everybody in the room, is what is the answer to this? and the answer is, as everybody knows, that there is, as everybody knows, that there is no alternative approach, if you let, if, there is no way of sequestering the elderly population or the vulnerable, sufficiently, and they will die tragically in great numbers when it gets uncontrollable. let me ask you about your knowledge and words round the broader population of disabled people that were dying. did you know, then, as of autumn of 2020 that code of posted risks to a wide range of disabled people of all ages, and in that i include people with learning disability, people with down's syndrome, and the like? we certainly knew that people _ syndrome, and the like? we certainly knew that people with _ syndrome, and the like? we certainly knew that people with a _ syndrome, and the like? we certainly knew that people with a huge - syndrome, and the like? we certainly knew that people with a huge variety | knew that people with a huge variety of syndromes were particularly vulnerable, and that is why we had a shielding scheme. ltrefoil vulnerable, and that is why we had a shielding scheme.— shielding scheme. well that being the case, shielding scheme. well that being the case. we _ shielding scheme. well that being the case, we do _ shielding scheme. well that being the case, we do not _ shielding scheme. well that being the case, we do not find - shielding scheme. well that being the case, we do not find you - the case, we do not find you repeatedly raising at this juncture with your government, and your senior advisers, with your government, and your senioradvisers, in with your government, and your senior advisers, in whatsapps and notes and meetings, about that problem, in a sense leading from the front with words and actions to let your government know in no uncertain terms that disabled people's lives are worth living, why is that? actually that is not true. what we did was to try to stop the spread of the virus and protect those who were shielding and vulnerable from a break out. ~ ., , , shielding and vulnerable from a break out-— break out. well, lastly, and standing — break out. well, lastly, and standing back, _ break out. well, lastly, and standing back, my - break out. well, lastly, and standing back, my lady - break out. well, lastly, and standing back, my lady if i l break out. well, lastly, and - standing back, my lady ifi may, and standing back, my lady if i may, and it follows from what has been said. public know, you know, that sometimes you use language florid language and one way to conclude about your use of language is that is just borisjohnson being about your use of language is that isjust borisjohnson being boris johnson. it is a matterfor isjust borisjohnson being boris johnson. it is a matter for my lady, but is that the kind of conclusion you would want her to reach? or would you rather her reach a conclusion that language of that florid kind of nature, even if said injest should not florid kind of nature, even if said in jest should not be used by a government official, and especially one who had the power that you enjoyed in autumn 2020? 7 which enjoyed in autumn 20207 7 which language mr freedman7 enjoyed in autumn 2020? ? which language mr freedman?— language mr freedman? where i describe it emotive _ language mr freedman? where i describe it emotive loire - language mr freedman? where i describe it emotive loire or- language mr freedman? where i describe it emotive loire or not l describe it emotive loire or not whether— describe it emotive loire or not whether old people have a good in, they are _ whether old people have a good in, they are going to die any way i... let me— they are going to die any way i... let me thank you. | they are going to die any way i... let me thank you.— let me thank you. i think you understand — let me thank you. i think you understand the _ let me thank you. i think you understand the question - let me thank you. i think you understand the question put| let me thank you. i think you i understand the question put to let me thank you. i think you - understand the question put to you. i do. ., . understand the question put to you. ido. ., ., ,.,,._ ., i do. you have probably heard it before. i do. you have probably heard it before- let _ i do. you have probably heard it before. let me _ i do. you have probably heard it before. let me give _ i do. you have probably heard it before. let me give you - i do. you have probably heard it before. let me give you a - i do. you have probably heard it l before. let me give you a straight answer on — before. let me give you a straight answer on that. _ before. let me give you a straight answer on that. first _ before. let me give you a straight answer on that. first of _ before. let me give you a straight answer on that. first of all, - before. let me give you a straight answer on that. first of all, i - answer on that. first of all, i think, i regret all hurt and offence caused by publication of language that was not intended for publication, whether it has been recorded by someone's notes or diaries or whatever, these were private conversations with officials, secondly a lot of what has been reported is incorrect, and there are words that are ascribed to me that i don't recognise but the third thing is, in so far as it is obviously true, that i was from time to time speaking bluntly, and in an unpolished way about these issues, it was to two reason, first of all i wanted to, as i say to represent the lay man to get, an answer that was intelligible. numbertwo lay man to get, an answer that was intelligible. number two i wanted everybody in the room, to feel that they could also speak freely, because think when you are sitting in a room full of conversations conducted in learned or bureaucratic language, about these complex phenomenon, you do need people to feel they have the space, without being embarrassed, to say things simply, even if taken out of context, they can be made to look unfeeling or uncaring, when people really aren't being unfeeling or uncaring, they are trying to express ideas, simply and as concisely as they can. ideas, simply and as concisely as the can. ., ., ideas, simply and as concisely as the can. ., ,, i. ideas, simply and as concisely as the can. ., ~' ,, ~ ideas, simply and as concisely as the can. ., ,, i. ~ ., ideas, simply and as concisely as the can. ., ~ ., a they can. thank you mr freedman. ms davis is over— they can. thank you mr freedman. ms davis is over that _ they can. thank you mr freedman. ms davis is over that way _ they can. thank you mr freedman. ms davis is over that way mr _ they can. thank you mr freedman. ms davis is over that way mrjohnson. - davis is over that way mrjohnson. can you see and hear me? yes. yes. so my two — can you see and hear me? yes. yes. so my two topics _ can you see and hear me? yes. yes. so my two topics are _ can you see and hear me? yes. yes. so my two topics are on _ can you see and hear me? yes. yes. so my two topics are on domestic. so my two topics are on domestic abuse, which is something that you told us yesterday you were personally very alive to that issue. yes. �* , ., ~ ., ., yes. and you will know, that the regulations _ yes. and you will know, that the regulations to — yes. and you will know, that the regulations to stay _ yes. and you will know, that the regulations to stay at _ yes. and you will know, that the regulations to stay at home - regulations to stay at home regulations to stay at home regulations contained a number of #k3e78ions, one of them was that you could leave _ #k3e78ions, one of them was that you could leave because of risk of injury — could leave because of risk of injury -- _ could leave because of risk of injury. —— exemptions and we are heard _ injury. —— exemptions and we are heard from — injury. —— exemptions and we are heard from mr hancock and it was obvious— heard from mr hancock and it was obvious that was intended to include risk of— obvious that was intended to include risk of domestic abuse. i want to ask you — risk of domestic abuse. i want to ask you about messaging, my first topic— ask you about messaging, my first topic is— ask you about messaging, my first topic is on— ask you about messaging, my first topic is on messaging which you have told us _ topic is on messaging which you have told us is _ topic is on messaging which you have told us is not — topic is on messaging which you have told us is notjust an important part— told us is notjust an important part of— told us is notjust an important part of an _ told us is notjust an important part of an mmpi but an important mpi in itself _ part of an mmpi but an important mpi in itself. they are address 05 to the nation — in itself. they are address 05 to the nation when you announced lockdown — the nation when you announced lockdown and five in total, the 23 march _ lockdown and five in total, the 23 march the — lockdown and five in total, the 23 march, the 315t october when you say there is— march, the 315t october when you say there is going to be the second lockdown, the 5th november when the details _ lockdown, the 5th november when the details of— lockdown, the 5th november when the details of the second lockdown are announced, the 19th december, which is tier— announced, the 19th december, which is tier 4 _ announced, the 19th december, which is tier 4 and _ announced, the 19th december, which is tier 4 and the 4th january 2021 when _ is tier 4 and the 4th january 2021 when you — is tier 4 and the 4th january 2021 when you announced the third lockdown. and in all those addresses lockdown. — and in all those addresses you emphasise rightly that people must stay at home throughout. but! emphasise rightly that people must stay at home throughout.— stay at home throughout. and you also refer to _ stay at home throughout. and you also refer to some _ stay at home throughout. and you also refer to some of— stay at home throughout. and you also refer to some of the - also refer to some of the exemptions, so, on the 23rd march you say— exemptions, so, on the 23rd march you say people will only be allowed to leave _ you say people will only be allowed to leave their home for the following very limited purposes. and those _ following very limited purposes. and those four— following very limited purposes. and those four purposes are shopping, exercise. — those four purposes are shopping, exercise, medical needs eve need, travelling _ exercise, medical needs eve need, travelling to and from work if that is necessary and you conclude that part by— is necessary and you conclude that part by saying that is all. these are the — part by saying that is all. these are the only reasons you should leave _ are the only reasons you should leave your — are the only reasons you should leave your home. on the other occasions, _ leave your home. on the other occasions, 315t october, 5th november and 19th december you give similar— november and 19th december you give similar lists on the 315t october you do— similar lists on the 315t october you do include the words escaping risk of— you do include the words escaping risk of injury or harmful but on none _ risk of injury or harmful but on none of— risk of injury or harmful but on none of those addresses do you say that people can leave if they are at risk of— that people can leave if they are at risk of domestic abuse, you do say that on— risk of domestic abuse, you do say that on 4th — risk of domestic abuse, you do say that on 4thjanuary risk of domestic abuse, you do say that on 4th january 2021 o risk of domestic abuse, you do say that on 4th january 2021 0 say that explicitly— that on 4th january 2021 0 say that explicitly where you say or to escape — explicitly where you say or to escape domestic abuse. so why was domestic— escape domestic abuse. so why was domestic abuse not mentioned earlier thanjanuary 2021? domestic abuse not mentioned earlier than january 2021?— than january 2021? thank you, i think that you _ than january 2021? thank you, i think that you are _ than january 2021? thank you, i think that you are making - than january 2021? thank you, i think that you are making a - than january 2021? thank you, i | think that you are making a very good point, and i think we in retrospect we should have given consideration to mention that issue explicitly, earlier, that didn't mean we were silent or inattentive to the problem, we put money into helplines almost immediately i think in april, we set up the ask for any scheme, as you know, there was a, so people, underthe scheme, as you know, there was a, so people, under the rules people could go out to the chemist for instance... i go out to the chemist for instance. . ._ go out to the chemist for instance... i will instance... iwill stop you. iwill robabl instance... iwill stop you. iwill probably come _ instance... iwill stop you. iwill probably come on _ instance... i will stop you. i will probably come on to _ instance... i will stop you. i will probably come on to that - instance... i will stop you. i will probably come on to that and i l instance... i will stop you. i will. probably come on to that and i am interested — probably come on to that and i am interested in messaging for the moment — interested in messaging for the moment. would you say the failure to mention— moment. would you say the failure to mention it _ moment. would you say the failure to mention it which you have acknowledged is compounded by that phrase _ acknowledged is compounded by that phrase of— acknowledged is compounded by that phrase of the 23rd march, saying that is— phrase of the 23rd march, saying that is all— phrase of the 23rd march, saying that is all these are the only reasons— that is all these are the only reasons you should leave your home? well, _ reasons you should leave your home? well, i_ reasons you should leave your home? well, ithink— reasons you should leave your home? well, i think that, i reasons you should leave your home? well, ithink that, i hope reasons you should leave your home? well, i think that, i hope that people would have understood that to report a criminal offence was also a reason to leave your home, but, it clearly, it was something we should have made explicit. band clearly, it was something we should have made explicit.— have made explicit. and in her evidence to — have made explicit. and in her evidence to the _ have made explicit. and in her evidence to the inquiry - have made explicit. and in her evidence to the inquiry dame | have made explicit. and in her. evidence to the inquiry dame priti patel— evidence to the inquiry dame priti patel said — evidence to the inquiry dame priti patel said that she and her department had raised the need with downing _ department had raised the need with downing street to refer to come to stick abuse — downing street to refer to come to stick abuse among exemptions, so why did you _ stick abuse among exemptions, so why did you or— stick abuse among exemptions, so why did you or your team not respond to those _ did you or your team not respond to those representations, sooner than january— those representations, sooner than january 2021? | those representations, sooner than january 2021?— those representations, sooner than january 2021? i don't remember her raising that — january 2021? i don't remember her raising that with _ january 2021? i don't remember her raising that with me. _ january 2021? i don't remember her raising that with me. my _ january 2021? i don't remember her raising that with me. my second - raising that with me. my second to - ic, raising that with me. my second toic, is raising that with me. my second topic, is about _ raising that with me. my second topic, is about the _ raising that with me. my second topic, is about the hidden - raising that with me. my second | topic, is about the hidden harms which _ topic, is about the hidden harms which is — topic, is about the hidden harms which is i — topic, is about the hidden harms which is i think what you were referring _ which is i think what you were referring to when i stopped you. and you said _ referring to when i stopped you. and you said at _ referring to when i stopped you. and you said at paragraph 542 of your statement. we learned many lessons from the _ statement. we learned many lessons from the first lockdown, we considered such things as the hidden harms _ considered such things as the hidden harms like _ considered such things as the hidden harms like increased domestic abuse and child _ harms like increased domestic abuse and child abuse and we wanted to ensure _ and child abuse and we wanted to ensure it — and child abuse and we wanted to ensure it was essential that services _ ensure it was essential that services supporting women and children— services supporting women and children remained available and steps _ children remained available and steps were takeren to tackle these crimes, _ steps were takeren to tackle these crimes, so— steps were takeren to tackle these crimes, so that is post first lockdown _ crimes, so that is post first lockdown and there was a hidden harms _ lockdown and there was a hidden harms summit in may 2020 as we are beginning _ harms summit in may 2020 as we are beginning to — harms summit in may 2020 as we are beginning to come out of the first lockdowh — beginning to come out of the first lockdown. in fact, during second and third lockdown, the same thing happened with domestic abuse as happened with domestic abuse as happened with domestic abuse as happened with the first, rates of domestic— happened with the first, rates of domestic abuse increased during lockdowh — domestic abuse increased during lockdown. so, what lessons were learned, — lockdown. so, what lessons were learned, and implemented for the second _ learned, and implemented for the second and third lockdown in order to protect — second and third lockdown in order to protect women and girls from domestic— to protect women and girls from domestic abuse?— domestic abuse? well, the, in addition to _ domestic abuse? well, the, in addition to the _ domestic abuse? well, the, in addition to the investment - domestic abuse? well, the, in addition to the investment in i domestic abuse? well, the, in i addition to the investment in the helplines which i think, as i say began almost immediately if the ask for any scheme where a victim of domestic abuse could go to the chemist and say that she... that was in february — chemist and say that she... that was in february 2021. _ chemist and say that she... that was in february 2021. say _ chemist and say that she... that was in february 2021. say she _ chemist and say that she... that was in february 2021. say she had - chemist and say that she... that was in february 2021. say she had a - in february 2021. say she had a problem. _ in february 2021. say she had a problem. any — in february 2021. say she had a problem, any think— in february 2021. say she had a problem, any think march - in february 2021. say she had al problem, any think march 2020, in february 2021. say she had a - problem, any think march 2020, and april 2020, the domestic violence bill is going through the... that has nothing _ bill is going through the... that has nothing to _ bill is going through the... that has nothing to do _ bill is going through the... that has nothing to do with the lockdown. and well, it was actually, i think, a useful tool, against dv. giving new statutory powers against a coercive behaviour one kind of another, and other measures, we put money into independent i think, right from the beginning of the government we put more money into independent sexual violence advisers and independent domestic violence advisers, and across whitehall, so people you could ring up, or people who could, would help you address the appalling issues you faced, but what we also did, across whitehall, was to try to solve what in my view is still a chronic problem which is the inability of the criminal justice system to deal with crimeles of rape, domestic violence, sexual violence of all kinds and to get enough prosecutions. so the government as a whole was working a great deal on this issue, and specifically trying to address the needs of women in lockdown. the domestic abuse bill received royal assent— domestic abuse bill received royal assent in— domestic abuse bill received royal assent in april 2021 and started to come _ assent in april 2021 and started to come into— assent in april 2021 and started to come into force injuly assent in april 2021 and started to come into force in july 2021. correct _ come into force in july 2021. correct. ., ., , �* , , come into force in july 2021. correct. ., ., ,�* , , correct. that doesn't help us... you asked me what _ correct. that doesn't help us... you asked me what we _ correct. that doesn't help us... you asked me what we wither _ correct. that doesn't help us... you asked me what we wither doing. - correct. that doesn't help us... you asked me what we wither doing. in | correct. that doesn't help us... you | asked me what we wither doing. in in respect of the second and third lockdown, did you not hear that part. _ lockdown, did you not hear that part. i_ lockdown, did you not hear that part, i apologise? lockdown, did you not hear that part, iapologise? we lockdown, did you not hear that part, i apologise?— lockdown, did you not hear that part, i apologise? we put money into hellines part, i apologise? we put money into helplines almost _ part, i apologise? we put money into helplines almost immediately - part, i apologise? we put money into helplines almost immediately and - part, i apologise? we put money intoj helplines almost immediately and did our best to encourage people to come forward. . .. our best to encourage people to come forward. ., ,, , ., our best to encourage people to come forward. . ~' , ., , our best to encourage people to come forward. ., ,, i. , . ., ,, forward. thank you very much. thank ou m forward. thank you very much. thank you my lady- — forward. thank you very much. thank you my lady- mr _ forward. thank you very much. thank you my lady. mrjacobs, _ forward. thank you very much. thank you my lady. mrjacobs, are - forward. thank you very much. thank you my lady. mrjacobs, are you - you my lady. mrjacobs, are you hidin: ? you my lady. mrjacobs, are you hiding? where _ you my lady. mrjacobs, are you hiding? where are _ you my lady. mrjacobs, are you hiding? where are you? - you my lady. mrjacobs, are you hiding? where are you? at - you my lady. mrjacobs, are you hiding? where are you? at the l you my lady. mrjacobs, are you - hiding? where are you? at the back. he is usually — hiding? where are you? at the back. he is usually over _ hiding? where are you? at the back. he is usually over there. _ hiding? where are you? at the back. he is usually over there. mr- he is usually over there. mr johnson, _ he is usually over there. mr johnson, i_ he is usually over there. mr johnson, i ask questions on behalf of the _ johnson, i ask questions on behalf of the trades union congress, ok. my first topic— of the trades union congress, ok. my first topic for — of the trades union congress, ok. my first topic for you, is on the approach _ first topic for you, is on the approach that you engendered in your government as to consultation with key partners such as unions. and i am going — key partners such as unions. and i am going to — key partners such as unions. and i am going to ask you about a meeting injuly. _ am going to ask you about a meeting injuly, 2021, you will recall at that— injuly, 2021, you will recall at that time _ injuly, 2021, you will recall at that time there was discussion about return— that time there was discussion about return to _ that time there was discussion about return to workplaces, and the unions that i_ return to workplaces, and the unions that i act— return to workplaces, and the unions that i act for— return to workplaces, and the unions that i act for were calling for various— that i act for were calling for various measures to advance workplace safety. if we have on screen — workplace safety. if we have on screen 273, 901. we will see a note from _ screen 273, 901. we will see a note from sir— screen 273, 901. we will see a note from sir patrick of a meeting on 2nd july, 2021~ _ from sir patrick of a meeting on 2nd july, 2021. and towards the middle of that— july, 2021. and towards the middle of that entry, you will see some quotations— of that entry, you will see some quotations attributed to you mr johnson, — quotations attributed to you mr johnson, are we going to encourage people _ johnson, are we going to encourage people to _ johnson, are we going to encourage people to wear masks? are we going to continue _ people to wear masks? are we going to continu - people to wear masks? are we going to continu ~. .. people to wear masks? are we going to continu - .. ., to continue expletive calling for vafious to continue expletive calling for various measures _ to continue expletive calling for various measures to _ to continue expletive calling for various measures to advance - various measures to advance workplace safety. if we have on screen 273, 901. we will see a note from sir patrick of a meeting on 2nd july, 2021. and towards the middle of that entry, you will see some quotations attributed to you mr johnson, are we going to encourage people to wear masks7 are we going to continue expletive calling for various measures to advance workplace safety. if we have on screen 273, 901. we will see a note from sir patrick of a meeting on 2nd july, 2021. and towards the middle of that entry, you will see some quotations attributed to you mr johnson, are we going to encourage people to wear masks7 are we going to continue expletive he say, "we isn't have the expletive of consulting with trade unions, they need to all come back to work. all the ma lingering work—shy people. mr johnson was it wrong for you as the prime minister, to set such a dismissive approach towards consultation with unions7 i dismissive approach towards consultation with unions? i don't believe that _ consultation with unions? i don't believe that we _ consultation with unions? i don't believe that we would _ consultation with unions? i don't believe that we would ignore - consultation with unions? i don't believe that we would ignore the interest of working people, at any stage and i think that the, the difficulty that we faced was the colossal damage to the interests of people on, particularly people on lower incomes of continuing with lockdowns. and... mr lower incomes of continuing with lockdowns. and... lower incomes of continuing with. lockdowns. and. . ._ i lockdowns. and... mrjohnson. .. i was lockdowns. and... mrjohnson... i was very keen _ lockdowns. and... mrjohnson... i was very keen to _ lockdowns. and... mrjohnson... i was very keen to get _ lockdowns. and... mrjohnson... i was very keen to get people - lockdowns. and... mrjohnson... i was very keen to get people back| lockdowns. and... mrjohnson... i| was very keen to get people back if we possibly could. i was very keen to get people back if we possibly could.— was very keen to get people back if we possibly could. i understand you are keen for— we possibly could. i understand you are keen for people _ we possibly could. i understand you are keen for people to _ we possibly could. i understand you are keen for people to work. - we possibly could. i understand you are keen for people to work. sorry l are keen for people to work. sorry mrjohnson, — are keen for people to work. sorry mrjohnson, i are keen for people to work. sorry mrjohnson, lam are keen for people to work. sorry mrjohnson, i am going to put my question— mrjohnson, i am going to put my question again. i am asking you specifically, about the approach you engendered, in your government, towards _ engendered, in your government, towards consultation with the unions — towards consultation with the unions a _ towards consultation with the unions. a prime minister who says, we can't _ unions. a prime minister who says, we can't have — unions. a prime minister who says, we can't have the unions. a prime minister who says, we can't have th— we can't have the expletive of consulting _ we can't have the expletive of consulting with _ we can't have the expletive of consulting with employers - we can't have the expletive of consulting with employers and | we can't have the expletive of - consulting with employers and trade unions is setting a dismissive approach. surely you agree with that? ., . , ~ approach. surely you agree with that? ., , ~ ., that? not necessarily, i think what ha en i that? not necessarily, i think what happen i didn't _ that? not necessarily, i think what happen i didn't want _ that? not necessarily, i think what happen i didn't want to _ that? not necessarily, i think what happen i didn't want to see - that? not necessarily, i think what happen i didn't want to see was, i happen i didn't want to see was, this is, this isjuly 2021, we have vaccinated a huge proportion of the population, think byjuly well over 50%, faster than any other european country, i am determined to get people back to work if i possibly can. i think that we have, by, the superhuman exertions of the vaccine roll out programme we put ourselves in a very good position, to stage a strong bounce back from covid, it is vital that we take advantage of the sacrifices we have made, both in lockdowns and in rolling out the vaccine, i want to... d0 lockdowns and in rolling out the vaccine, i want to...— vaccine, i want to... do any of those matters _ vaccine, i want to... do any of those matters sensibly - vaccine, i want to... do any of those matters sensibly meanl vaccine, i want to... do any of. those matters sensibly mean that vaccine, i want to... do any of - those matters sensibly mean that you don't consultant openly, with key partners — don't consultant openly, with key partners such as trade unions? | partners such as trade unions? don't, i have partners such as trade unions? i don't, i have nothing against consultation, what i didn't want to see was a drag anchor, put on people getting back in to the workplace, after the colossal changes that we have been able to make, in the pandemic. the vaccination programme had radically changed our relation to the virus, and i, my worry was to be absolutely frank with you that people were going to be slow to acknowledge that and there was going to be an inertia and desire to stay with the, working from home pattern, which was not in my view necessarily going to be beneficialfor a strong economic recovery, which would benefit trade union members and theirfamilies. ii benefit trade union members and their families.— their families. if we move mr johnson from _ their families. if we move mr johnson from the _ their families. if we move mr johnson from the slightly - their families. if we move mr i johnson from the slightly more general— johnson from the slightly more general to the more specific, an issue _ general to the more specific, an issue on— general to the more specific, an issue on which you may recall a similar— issue on which you may recall a similar difference of view between unions _ similar difference of view between unions education unions in particular— unions education unions in particular and on the issue of masks in schools. — particular and on the issue of masks in schools. in— particular and on the issue of masks in schools, in the summer of 2020 education — in schools, in the summer of 2020 education unions were advocating guidance — education unions were advocating guidance requiring masks in schools. scotland _ guidance requiring masks in schools. scotland and the world health organization took a different approach. if we have on screen 283-369— approach. if we have on screen 283-369 and approach. if we have on screen 283—369 and page 41, we will see a text message exchange... between you and dominic— text message exchange... between you and dominic cummings and leigh kane and dominic cummings and leigh kane and at— and dominic cummings and leigh kane and at the— and dominic cummings and leigh kane and at the very bottom we see 25th august. _ and at the very bottom we see 25th august. a _ and at the very bottom we see 25th august, a message, a whatsapp from you you _ august, a message, a whatsapp from you you say— august, a message, a whatsapp from you you say i'm on a train trying to make _ you you say i'm on a train trying to make sense — you you say i'm on a train trying to make sense of our totally expletive facemask policy- _ make sense of our totally expletive facemask policy. and _ make sense of our totally expletive facemask policy. and then, - make sense of our totally expletive facemask policy. and then, if - make sense of our totally expletive facemask policy. and then, if we - facemask policy. and then, if we just hold that in our minds mr johnson, in terms of your assessment of the facemask policy, in schools, if we go to 48313, page 53. we see some messages from the following day. with lee cain again, mr cummings again and this time mr case. and at the top, mr cummings asksin case. and at the top, mr cummings asks in language with which we have become familiar what is the true reason for the u—turn en masse we just slow catching up gavin expletive and simon case your soon to be cabinet secretary, offers an explanation, and point five, is weeks ago, we recommended to pm we create permissive guidance because we could foresee it was going to be a drama in september. gavin discussed it at the covid committee miting it was unions presses for mask, no science back up. gavin was in no surrender mode and didn't want to give an inch to the unions so said we should hold firm. pm gave full support and in his conclusions, his third conclusion is, at every turn, pm backs expletive no surrender ideas from hancock and shapps and totally regrets it later. when it comes to consultation with, working _ when it comes to consultation with, working with unions, do we see here the proof— working with unions, do we see here the proof in — working with unions, do we see here the proof in the pudding in that we have the _ the proof in the pudding in that we have the policy that you obviously saw as _ have the policy that you obviously saw as wrong—headed, arrived at further— saw as wrong—headed, arrived at further to— saw as wrong—headed, arrived at further to being pointlessly opposition with the unions? no, the reali is opposition with the unions? no, the reality is that _ opposition with the unions? no, the reality is that the _ opposition with the unions? no, the reality is that the advice _ opposition with the unions? no, the reality is that the advice on - opposition with the unions? no, the reality is that the advice on masks, | reality is that the advice on masks, as the inquiry knows very well, the position on masks changed during the pandemic and the advice initially from chris and particularly patrick was that masks were thought to be of limited benefit. they might thought to be of some symbolic benefit. that changed as the scientists thought that in the end, it was a powerful signal to people to wear a mask that you are taking precautions and that you are taking precautions and that you felt that the virus was still something that was very dangerous. there were