service unease about the challenging approach of some of the special advisers — approach of some of the special advisers and i had to make a judgment about the particular issue. and i decided, on balance, that at a very difficult time for the country i very difficult time for the country iwouid _ very difficult time for the country i would rather have a number ten where _ i would rather have a number ten where people challenged ideas and where _ where people challenged ideas and where people challenged ideas and where people brought new ideas and where _ where people brought new ideas and where people brought new ideas and where people felt free to say things other— where people felt free to say things other tharr— where people felt free to say things other than an where people felt free to say things otherthan an numberten where people felt free to say things other than an number ten where everybody— other than an number ten where everybody tried to pretend that all was continuously well because it was not well— was continuously well because it was not well with the country and we needed — not well with the country and we needed to— not well with the country and we needed to fix it. let not well with the country and we needed to fix it.— needed to fix it. let me be clear about this, _ needed to fix it. let me be clear about this, mr _ needed to fix it. let me be clear about this, mrjohnson, - needed to fix it. let me be clear about this, mrjohnson, if- needed to fix it. let me be clear about this, mrjohnson, if your i about this, mrjohnson, if your concern that there had been a civil service unease about the challenging approach of some of your special advisers and you plainly mean mr cummings there, your response was not to support the civil service and deal with mr not to support the civil service and dealwith mr cummings, not to support the civil service and deal with mr cummings, you sidelined your cabinet secretary and kept mr cummings?— cummings? that is your way of... isn't that what _ cummings? that is your way of... isn't that what you _ cummings? that is your way of... isn't that what you did? _ cummings? that is your way of... isn't that what you did? i - isn't that what you did? i certainly... let me get back to sir mark _ certainly... let me get back to sir mark he — certainly... let me get back to sir mark. he decided he wanted to move on, mark. he decided he wanted to move on. that— mark. he decided he wanted to move on. that is— mark. he decided he wanted to move on, that is what he told me. on the issue _ on, that is what he told me. on the issue of— on, that is what he told me. on the issue of the — on, that is what he told me. on the issue of the rest of my team and the culture _ issue of the rest of my team and the culture irr— issue of the rest of my team and the culture in numberten, yes it issue of the rest of my team and the culture in number ten, yes it was occasionally argumentative, but i think— occasionally argumentative, but i think that — occasionally argumentative, but i think that was no bad thing. we needed, — think that was no bad thing. we needed, frankly, to have an atmosphere in which people felt able to say— atmosphere in which people felt able to say things that were going to be controversial at the time. mr johnson. _ controversial at the time. m' johnson, without controversial at the time. m johnson, without labouring the point, a great deal of evidence has been given to the effect that there were systemic problems at number ten and the cabinet offices. the wrong people in the room, wrong people in the wrong jobs, people talking over each other, god complex, leadership issues, misogyny, perpetualwarfare. issues, misogyny, perpetual warfare. neither issues, misogyny, perpetualwarfare. neither he where aware of all that, in which case, why did you not act? if you are not, why were you not aware? ., ., , .,, , aware? none of those things was put to me in the — aware? none of those things was put to me in the terms _ aware? none of those things was put to me in the terms that _ aware? none of those things was put to me in the terms that you - aware? none of those things was put to me in the terms that you have - to me in the terms that you have 'ust to me in the terms that you have just done, — to me in the terms that you have just done, first of all. nobody came to me _ just done, first of all. nobody came to me and _ just done, first of all. nobody came to me and said people have got god comptexes— to me and said people have got god complexes going on here. what i saw was a _ complexes going on here. what i saw was a country that needed continuous, urgent action and it needed — continuous, urgent action and it needed solution is to be found. what i needed solution is to be found. what iwahted _ needed solution is to be found. what i wanted were meetings in which people _ i wanted were meetings in which people could speak their minds without— people could speak their minds without fear of being embarrassed or being _ without fear of being embarrassed or being seen— without fear of being embarrassed or being seen to say something foolish and that's— being seen to say something foolish and that's one of the reasons, by the way, — and that's one of the reasons, by the way, why i sometimes spoke bluntly— the way, why i sometimes spoke bluntly and fairly in meetings. i wanted — bluntly and fairly in meetings. i wanted to— bluntly and fairly in meetings. i wanted to give everybody cover to do the same _ wanted to give everybody cover to do the same i_ wanted to give everybody cover to do the same. i wanted them to feel that if they— the same. i wanted them to feel that if they had _ the same. i wanted them to feel that if they had an idea then i wanted to hear it _ if they had an idea then i wanted to hear it. . , , .., hear it. can i 'ust interrupt, can ou hold hear it. can i 'ust interrupt, can you how that— hear it. can ijust interrupt, can you hold that train _ hear it. can ijust interrupt, can you hold that train of— hear it. can ijust interrupt, can you hold that train of thought, l you hold that train of thought, whatever— you hold that train of thought, whatever it _ you hold that train of thought, whatever it was. _ you hold that train of thought, whatever it was. mr _ you hold that train of thought, whatever it was. mrjohnson, i you hold that train of thought, i whatever it was. mrjohnson, one you hold that train of thought, - whatever it was. mrjohnson, one of the reasons— whatever it was. mrjohnson, one of the reasons i— whatever it was. mrjohnson, one of the reasons i have _ whatever it was. mrjohnson, one of the reasons i have been _ whatever it was. mrjohnson, one of the reasons i have been interested i the reasons i have been interested in the _ the reasons i have been interested in the culture — the reasons i have been interested in the culture of— the reasons i have been interested in the culture of number— the reasons i have been interested in the culture of number ten- the reasons i have been interested in the culture of number ten is- in the culture of number ten is whether— in the culture of number ten is whether or— in the culture of number ten is whether or not _ in the culture of number ten is whether or not had _ in the culture of number ten is whether or not had there - in the culture of number ten is whether or not had there beenl whether or not had there been different— whether or not had there been different structures _ whether or not had there been different structures in - whether or not had there been different structures in place, l whether or not had there been. different structures in place, then this kind — different structures in place, then this kind of— different structures in place, then this kind of culture _ different structures in place, then this kind of culture may— different structures in place, then this kind of culture may not - different structures in place, then this kind of culture may not havei this kind of culture may not have arisen _ this kind of culture may not have arisen ahd — this kind of culture may not have arisen and it— this kind of culture may not have arisen and it might _ this kind of culture may not have arisen and it might have - this kind of culture may not have| arisen and it might have provided you with — arisen and it might have provided you with a — arisen and it might have provided you with a better— arisen and it might have provided you with a better framework- arisen and it might have provided you with a better framework for. arisen and it might have provided i you with a better framework for and seeking _ you with a better framework for and seeking advice? _ you with a better framework for and seeking advice? i— you with a better framework for and seeking advice? i was _ you with a better framework for and seeking advice? i was looking, - seeking advice? i was looking, example. _ seeking advice? i was looking, example. we _ seeking advice? i was looking, example, we were _ seeking advice? i was looking, example, we were looking - seeking advice? i was looking, - example, we were looking initially at the _ example, we were looking initially at the ministerial— example, we were looking initially at the ministerial implementationl at the ministerial implementation groups _ at the ministerial implementation groups they— at the ministerial implementation groups. they didn't _ at the ministerial implementation groups. they didn't really - at the ministerial implementation groups. they didn't really work i at the ministerial implementation. groups. they didn't really work and then you _ groups. they didn't really work and then you got — groups. they didn't really work and then you got covid _ groups. they didn't really work and then you got covid and _ groups. they didn't really work and then you got covid and covid - groups. they didn't really work and then you got covid and covid s- groups. they didn't really work and then you got covid and covid s and| then you got covid and covid s and then you got covid and covid s and then they— then you got covid and covid s and then they did — then you got covid and covid s and then they did work. _ then you got covid and covid s and then they did work. the _ then you got covid and covid s and then they did work.— then they did work. the problem frankly was _ then they did work. the problem frankly was that _ then they did work. the problem frankly was that the _ then they did work. the problem frankly was that the system, - then they did work. the problem frankly was that the system, the j frankly was that the system, the cabinet — frankly was that the system, the cabinet office, the ministerial, the mix, _ cabinet office, the ministerial, the mix. it _ cabinet office, the ministerial, the mix. it was — cabinet office, the ministerial, the mix, it was all too diffuse. and in my view, — mix, it was all too diffuse. and in my view, things only really started to come _ my view, things only really started to come together when we had a rhythm. — to come together when we had a rhythm, morning meetings where everybody could say their piece and that would — everybody could say their piece and that would set the agenda for the day. that would set the agenda for the dav that — that would set the agenda for the day. that wasn't necessarily a decision— day. that wasn't necessarily a decision making meeting, but what i would _ decision making meeting, but what i would submit is that for future pandemics there needs to be more clarity— pandemics there needs to be more clarity about which are the debating meetings _ clarity about which are the debating meetings and discussion and which are the _ meetings and discussion and which are the decision—making meetings. what _ are the decision—making meetings. what would happen is i would be presented with a problem and then within— presented with a problem and then within the — presented with a problem and then within the space of half an hour we would _ within the space of half an hour we would have — within the space of half an hour we would have got to the solution and then we'd — would have got to the solution and then we'd have to do it all again in a separate — then we'd have to do it all again in a separate format, through the cabinet — a separate format, through the cabinet or— a separate format, through the cabinet or whatever. i think... it is a _ cabinet or whatever. i think... it is a microscopic issue by comparison of what _ is a microscopic issue by comparison of what we _ is a microscopic issue by comparison of what we have been talking about. but some _ of what we have been talking about. but some work needs to be done on those _ but some work needs to be done on those procedures so that the prime minister— those procedures so that the prime minister has, when he goes into some meetings _ minister has, when he goes into some meetings knowing these are decision taking _ meetings knowing these are decision taking meetings and is given all the evidence _ taking meetings and is given all the evidence on both sides of the argument. because that was not happening. what was happening was, we were _ happening. what was happening was, we were having a meeting and we would _ we were having a meeting and we would say, — we were having a meeting and we would say, this is the problem, the r is taking — would say, this is the problem, the r is taking off, the tier system isn't _ r is taking off, the tier system isn't working, what do we do now? and i_ isn't working, what do we do now? and i witt— isn't working, what do we do now? and i will try— isn't working, what do we do now? and i will try to come to an answer, but i _ and i will try to come to an answer, but i felt _ and i will try to come to an answer, but i felt the — and i will try to come to an answer, but i felt the structures, we had the difference between covid o and covid _ the difference between covid o and covid si _ the difference between covid o and covid s, but to be absolutely frank, i covid s, but to be absolutely frank, i don't _ covid s, but to be absolutely frank, idon't think— covid s, but to be absolutely frank, i don't think if i was sitting in a covid _ i don't think if i was sitting in a covid 0 — idon't think if i was sitting in a covid 0 or— i don't think if i was sitting in a covid 0 or a _ i don't think if i was sitting in a covid o or a covid si i don't think if i was sitting in a covid o or a covid s i couldn't tell you at— covid o or a covid s i couldn't tell you at any— covid o or a covid s i couldn't tell you at any given moment whether it was a _ you at any given moment whether it was a covid — you at any given moment whether it was a covid o or covid s. i wasjust sitting _ was a covid o or covid s. i wasjust sitting in— was a covid o or covid s. i wasjust sitting in meeting after meeting trying _ sitting in meeting after meeting trying to— sitting in meeting after meeting trying to deal with the problem. that was— trying to deal with the problem. that was the most effective way to do it, _ that was the most effective way to do it. you — that was the most effective way to do it, you needed to be sitting permanently on the bridge trying to deal with— permanently on the bridge trying to deal with it all. and back to the culture, — deal with it all. and back to the culture, i— deal with it all. and back to the culture, i had to make a decision about — culture, i had to make a decision about i— culture, i had to make a decision about... i knew some people were difficult _ about... i knew some people were difficult i— about... i knew some people were difficult. i didn't know how difficult _ difficult. i didn't know how difficult they were, clearly. but i thought — difficult they were, clearly. but i thought it — difficult they were, clearly. but i thought it was better on the hole for the _ thought it was better on the hole for the country to have a disputatious culture in number ten than one _ disputatious culture in number ten than one that was quietly acquiescent to whatever i other scientists— acquiescent to whatever i other scientists said. mr acquiescent to whatever i other scientists said.— acquiescent to whatever i other scientists said. mrjohnson, in a whatsapp _ scientists said. mrjohnson, in a whatsapp to — scientists said. mrjohnson, in a whatsapp to mr _ scientists said. mrjohnson, in a whatsapp to mr cummings, - scientists said. mrjohnson, in a - whatsapp to mr cummings, described him, you and your administration in having indulged in an orgy of narcissism. that is not disputatious is it? i narcissism. that is not disputatious is it? ~' , , . ., is it? i think, with respect, that whatsapp _ is it? i think, with respect, that whatsapp was _ is it? i think, with respect, that whatsapp was sent _ is it? i think, with respect, that whatsapp was sent at - is it? i think, with respect, that whatsapp was sent at the - is it? i think, with respect, that whatsapp was sent at the end. | is it? i think, with respect, that - whatsapp was sent at the end. yeah, when _ whatsapp was sent at the end. yeah, when i _ whatsapp was sent at the end. yeah, when i think— whatsapp was sent at the end. yeah, when i think some of the things that were not— when i think some of the things that were not obvious to me had become more _ were not obvious to me had become more obvious. in were not obvious to me had become more obvious— more obvious. in may, earlier in the summer, more obvious. in may, earlier in the summer. the _ more obvious. in may, earlier in the summer, the whatsapp _ more obvious. in may, earlier in the summer, the whatsapp from - more obvious. in may, earlier in the summer, the whatsapp from mr - summer, the whatsapp from mr cummings to you, i think it is a screenshot from mr cummings' witness statement. if he could scroll to the top of the page. if hancock comes to meetings in number ten, pleasejust ignore. we need to have meetings without him. that is mr cummings. all too recognisable, we need to rebuild the government from top to bottom, we need to take over the cabinet office and run the whole thing. cabinet office and run the whole thin. , , ., , thing. this is me on the left, is it? that was — thing. this is me on the left, is it? that was my _ thing. this is me on the left, is it? that was my question. - thing. this is me on the left, is it? that was my question. the | thing. this is me on the left, is i it? that was my question. the top ri . ht is it? that was my question. the top right is obviously _ it? that was my question. the top right is obviously mr _ it? that was my question. the top right is obviously mr cummings i right is obviously mr cummings because he is asking you to ignore mr hancock's text messages. this is... just mr hancock's text messages. this is- -- just wait _ mr hancock's text messages. this is... just wait were _ mr hancock's text messages. this is... just wait were moment. - mr hancock's text messages. this is... just wait were moment. is i mr hancock's text messages. this is... just wait were moment. is it | is... just wait were moment. is it ou is... just wait were moment. is it you saying _ is... just wait were moment. is it you saying you — is... just wait were moment. is it you saying you need _ is... just wait were moment. is it you saying you need to _ is... just wait were moment. is it you saying you need to take - is... just wait were moment. is it you saying you need to take over| is... just wait were moment. is it. you saying you need to take over the cabinet office and run the government is to mark this is a reference, is this in may? it is, the 13th of may.— reference, is this in may? it is, the 13th of may. this is a reference to a [an the 13th of may. this is a reference to a plan we _ the 13th of may. this is a reference to a plan we hatched _ the 13th of may. this is a reference to a plan we hatched to _ the 13th of may. this is a reference to a plan we hatched to try - the 13th of may. this is a reference to a plan we hatched to try to - the 13th of may. this is a reference to a plan we hatched to try to have| to a plan we hatched to try to have a massive — to a plan we hatched to try to have a massive data driven revolution in government. and to use covid and this moment when we were finding out so much _ this moment when we were finding out so much about people's propensities to illness _ so much about people's propensities to illness of all kinds, to try to have _ to illness of all kinds, to try to have a — to illness of all kinds, to try to have a much more effective government and reopened a big office in 70 whitehall, a big, open plan, a bit like _ in 70 whitehall, a big, open plan, a bit like this, — in 70 whitehall, a big, open plan, a bit like this, actually, where the idea was— bit like this, actually, where the idea was we would assemble data and we witt— idea was we would assemble data and we will try— idea was we would assemble data and we will try and do things in a different— we will try and do things in a different way. i have to tell you, it is not — different way. i have to tell you, it is not a — different way. i have to tell you, it is not a success. mr different way. i have to tell you, it is not a success.— different way. i have to tell you, it is not a success. mrjohnson, it is well known _ it is not a success. mrjohnson, it is well known and _ it is not a success. mrjohnson, it is well known and you _ it is not a success. mrjohnson, it is well known and you data - it is not a success. mrjohnson, it. is well known and you data system was set up, it is called ten data system, or 10 downing street, whatever your preference and there was a greater provision of data throughout the summer 2020, particularly from may onwards. this message doesn't refer to data, it doesn't refer to setting up new data, it talks about rebuilding the government from top to bottom and taking over the cabinet office, which itself wasn't responsible for data. it had multifarious functions, not one of which was the provision of data? , ., not one of which was the provision of data? ,, ., , ., ., of data? sorry, what i meant... the office that — of data? sorry, what i meant... the office that we _ of data? sorry, what i meant... the office that we created _ of data? sorry, what i meant... the office that we created was - of data? sorry, what i meant... the office that we created was in - of data? sorry, what i meant... the office that we created was in the - office that we created was in the cabinet — office that we created was in the cabinet office. it was in 70 whitehall. that was what i was talking about. i agree things needed to change _ talking about. i agree things needed to change. i wanted a data driven reform _ to change. i wanted a data driven reform of— to change. i wanted a data driven reform of government. two further oints on reform of government. two further points on this _ reform of government. two further points on this topic, _ reform of government. two further points on this topic, please. - points on this topic, please. firstly, mr cayce's whatsapp messages with mark sedwill, i don't want to go through this line by line, mrjohnson, but if you just scroll your eyes down the page, you will see multiple references to the behaviour at downing street and in essence, mark sedwill saying i have agreed to stay on for now subject to various conditions about behaviour and systems. the fact that he says i have agreed to stay on may say something on his departure. this reference of not willing to do any job without guarantees from the prime minister about behaviours. i will not support any version of number ten that undermines any cabinet secretary, let alone new. i will do my utmost to support the prime minister but i am very cautious about walking back into this. there was then a reference to the conversation with you about behaviours. i don't want to go near these people unless there are guarantees about behaviour. i am hearing from everyone you have made the prime minister see sense and the only thing that is happening is creation of a covid job. i am or pull the prime minister has done all of this and that is completely putting me off my stride. that is done all of this damage when all he really wanted was a point person for covid. i hammered the gameplaying covid. i hammered the gameplaying covid now, leave the work, not sure if he saw sense, he just gave in. but i made clear how angry i am about the behaviour. so on and so forth. they made it absolutely plain to you that there were very real problems in the operation of number ten. in part because of the behaviour of mr cummings. in part because of your own approach to leadership at the decision making. and in part because she had effectively sacked mark sedwill. several things, effectively sacked mark sedwill. severalthings, i effectively sacked mark sedwill. several things, i don't remember any conversations about behaviour with either _ conversations about behaviour with either of _ conversations about behaviour with either of these people. i don't remember... any particular complaints being raised by simon cayce _ complaints being raised by simon cayce about anybody's behaviour. you should _ cayce about anybody's behaviour. you should take _ cayce about anybody's behaviour. you should take these points up with the current— should take these points up with the current cabinet secretary. i understand... current cabinet secretary. i understand. . ._ current cabinet secretary. i understand... , . , ., ~ understand... they have been taken u . understand... they have been taken u- with understand... they have been taken up with mark — understand... they have been taken up with mark sedwill, _ understand... they have been taken up with mark sedwill, who _ understand... they have been taken up with mark sedwill, who has - understand... they have been taken up with mark sedwill, who has been | understand... they have been taken | up with mark sedwill, who has been a witness in this inquiry, mrjohnson. that is good. what i would say, i don't _ that is good. what i would say, i don't think— that is good. what i would say, i don't think it was a bad thing to have _ don't think it was a bad thing to have people who were willing to challenge the consensus and get things— challenge the consensus and get things done. whatever you may say about _ things done. whatever you may say about the _ things done. whatever you may say about the government, it did get an awful— about the government, it did get an awful tot _ about the government, it did get an awful tot of— about the government, it did get an awful lot of things done. i think that is— awful lot of things done. i think that is what the country needed at the time — that is what the country needed at the time h— that is what the country needed at the time. �* ., that is what the country needed at the time. . ., ., , ., the time. a lot of things were not done, as the time. a lot of things were not done. as they _ the time. a lot of things were not done, as they might _ the time. a lot of things were not done, as they might otherwise i the time. a lot of things were not i done, as they might otherwise have been done. i done, as they might otherwise have been done. ~ . done, as they might otherwise have been done. ,, ., , been done. i think what is certainly... _ been done. i think what is certainly... that - been done. i think what is certainly... that is - been done. i think what is certainly... that is always | been done. i think what is - certainly... that is always true, but i _ certainly... that is always true, but i don't _ certainly... that is always true, but i don't happen to think that when _ but i don't happen to think that when it— but i don't happen to think that when it came to the management of the pandemic and i think this is the cruciat— the pandemic and i think this is the crucial thing, when it came to the management of the pandemic any kind of differences, feuding over whatever between officials, which i am sad _ whatever between officials, which i am sad to — whatever between officials, which i am sad to say are just what happens in places— am sad to say are just what happens in places like number ten. any of that made — in places like number ten. any of that made the slightest difference to our— that made the slightest difference to our processes and our decision—making. but you could have stopped _ decision—making. but you could have stopped it _ decision-making. but you could have sto ed it. , ., ., stopped it. there is one final oint, stopped it. there is one final point. which _ stopped it. there is one final point, which my— stopped it. there is one final point, which my lady- stopped it. there is one final. point, which my lady intervened stopped it. there is one final- point, which my lady intervened to ask a question about when the evidence was given. inquiry was shown a whatsapp from mr cummings, which was particularly offensive about helen mcnamara. i which was particularly offensive about helen mcnamara.- which was particularly offensive about helen mcnamara. it about helen mcnamara. i saw that. it was sent to — about helen mcnamara. i saw that. it was sent to you _ about helen mcnamara. i saw that. it was sent to you and _ about helen mcnamara. i saw that. it was sent to you and others _ about helen mcnamara. i saw that. it was sent to you and others in - about helen mcnamara. i saw that. it was sent to you and others in your . was sent to you and others in your whatsapp group but you maintained a silence and you never spoke up to say, that is unacceptable and cannot be allowed to go on on my watch. i did see that. i don't remember it now, _ did see that. i don't remember it now. i_ did see that. i don't remember it now. i don't— did see that. i don't remember it now, i don't remember seeing it at the time, _ now, i don't remember seeing it at the time, but i must have seen it because — the time, but i must have seen it because i— the time, but i must have seen it because i was on the group. i have rung _ because i was on the group. i have rung heten — because i was on the group. i have rung helen mcnamara to apologise to her for— rung helen mcnamara to apologise to her for not _ rung helen mcnamara to apologise to her for not having coded out... —— catted _ her for not having coded out... —— called it— her for not having coded out... —— called it out _ her for not having coded out... —— called it out. i— her for not having coded out... —— called it out. i have apologised to her. . , , ., , ,, her. finally this afternoon, the dhs e and mr hancock, _ her. finally this afternoon, the dhs e and mr hancock, a _ her. finally this afternoon, the dhs e and mr hancock, a considerable l e and mr hancock, a considerable amount of evidence has been given to the inquiry that the league government department model may not have been appropriate for a whole system crisis like covid. you understand what that is? he plainly functioned well at the beginning, it may function less well when the whole of government is engaged and perhaps too much pressure is placed on the system. there is considerable material into patrick vallance's diaries and in the witness statement of mr cummings to the effect that there was a high degree of chaos in there was a high degree of chaos in the dhse. there was operational inefficiency, sir patrick vallance talks about this all the way through to may 2021. where you are aware that competent, very senior advisers in your administration held the view that the dhse had been overwhelmed and was operationally inefficient? i was certainly aware that the department of health and matt hancock are coming under fire. but i want to— hancock are coming under fire. but i want to go— hancock are coming under fire. but i want to go back to the high level point _ want to go back to the high level point i _ want to go back to the high level point i made earlier about what all this signifies and the ways in which it should _ this signifies and the ways in which it should be read and understood. first of— it should be read and understood. first of att— it should be read and understood. first of all it is the kind of stuff that would never previously have come _ that would never previously have come out — that would never previously have come out from any administration, because _ come out from any administration, because it — come out from any administration, because it is — come out from any administration, because it is now on instant social messaging — because it is now on instant social messaging that previous governments didn't have. it is instant chitchat between — didn't have. it is instant chitchat between people he would normally have said _ between people he would normally have said this to each other's face. in have said this to each other's face. in the _ have said this to each other's face. in the corridors or wherever. mr in the corridors or wherever. johnson, sorry in the corridors or wherever. m johnson, sorry to interrupt, you may have misunderstood my question. forgive me. the have misunderstood my question. forgive me— have misunderstood my question. forgive me. the material isn't 'ust whatsa - forgive me. the material isn't 'ust whatsappandfi forgive me. the material isn't 'ust whatsapp and evening * forgive me. the material isn't 'ust whatsapp and evening notes, h forgive me. the material isn'tjust whatsapp and evening notes, but| whatsapp and evening notes, but witness statements which talk about a high level of operational inefficiency, or chaos. in the dhse. i'm not talking about it personal... where you aware that he was taken generally of the dhse? i where you aware that he was taken generally of the dhse?— where you aware that he was taken generally of the dhse? i was aware, certainl . generally of the dhse? i was aware, certainly- yes. _ generally of the dhse? i was aware, certainly. yes, certainly— generally of the dhse? i was aware, certainly. yes, certainly i _ generally of the dhse? i was aware, certainly. yes, certainly i was- certainly. yes, certainly i was aware — certainly. yes, certainly i was aware that _ certainly. yes, certainly i was aware that the dhse was under fire from toads— aware that the dhse was under fire from loads of people. but that was hardly— from loads of people. but that was hardly surprising. because the country— hardly surprising. because the country was going through a horrific pandemic — country was going through a horrific pandemic. what i should have said more _ pandemic. what i should have said more quickly to the point, the point is you _ more quickly to the point, the point is you have — more quickly to the point, the point is you have a — more quickly to the point, the point is you have a lot of talented and sometimes super—confident, sometimes egotistical— sometimes super—confident, sometimes egotistical people who are crushed with anxiety about what is happening to their— with anxiety about what is happening to their country, who are racked secretty — to their country, who are racked secretly with self—doubt and self—criticism and who externalise that by— self—criticism and who externalise that by criticising others. and it is human— that by criticising others. and it is human nature. when you are the leader— is human nature. when you are the leader in— is human nature. when you are the leader in those circumstances, your 'ob leader in those circumstances, your job is— leader in those circumstances, your job is to _ leader in those circumstances, your job is to work out what is justified and what — job is to work out what is justified and what is — job is to work out what is justified and what is people signing off and what is _ and what is people signing off and what is political nonsense. my judgment was that matt hancock was, on the _ judgment was that matt hancock was, on the whole, doing a good job in very difficult circumstances and there _ very difficult circumstances and there was— very difficult circumstances and there was no advantage in moving him. _ there was no advantage in moving him. as— there was no advantage in moving him. as i— there was no advantage in moving him, as i was being urged to do. that— him, as i was being urged to do. that was— him, as i was being urged to do. that was my— him, as i was being urged to do. that was myjudgment. on the lead department point, i think, yes, that was myjudgment. on the lead department point, ithink, yes, i think— department point, ithink, yes, i think it _ department point, ithink, yes, i think it was _ department point, ithink, yes, i think it was a huge burden on the department of health to be the lead department for a while, but that rapidly— department for a while, but that rapidly morphed into the centre running — rapidly morphed into the centre running of everything, and that was inevitable — running of everything, and that was inevitable. you running of everything, and that was inevitable. ., , , , , inevitable. you suggest in response to my question _ inevitable. you suggest in response to my question that _ inevitable. you suggest in response to my question that these - inevitable. you suggest in responsej to my question that these criticisms were made because people are crushed with anxiety and racked secretly with anxiety and racked secretly with self—doubt and self—criticism. whatever the psychological mood, sir patrick vallance. .. whatever the psychological mood, sir patrick vallance... i whatever the psychological mood, sir patrick vallance. . ._ patrick vallance. .. i wasn't trying to be individual. _ patrick vallance. .. i wasn't trying to be individual. no, _ patrick vallance. .. i wasn't trying to be individual. no, wait - patrick vallance. .. i wasn't trying to be individual. no, wait for- patrick vallance. .. i wasn't trying to be individual. no, wait for the| to be individual. no, wait for the cuestion, to be individual. no, wait for the question, please. _ to be individual. no, wait for the question, please. whatever- to be individual. no, wait for the i question, please. whatever states they were in, and even if they were in a state of being crushed by self—criticism and self—doubt, that hardly explains why a significant number of witnesses described, objectively, chaos inside the dhse? i think the reason is you have got a once _ i think the reason is you have got a once in— i think the reason is you have got a once in a _ i think the reason is you have got a once in a century pandemic, for which _ once in a century pandemic, for which sadly— once in a century pandemic, for which sadly there was no proper preparation in the country because we didn't— preparation in the country because we didn't know how to deal with highly— we didn't know how to deal with highly continuous coronavirus pandemic. and all the pressure initiatty— pandemic. and all the pressure initially was on good, hard—working department of health officials who, of course. _ department of health officials who, of course, felt under pressure and huge _ of course, felt under pressure and huge professional obligation to get things— huge professional obligation to get things right and who naturally wear in a state _ things right and who naturally wear in a state of great anxiety. getting back to _ in a state of great anxiety. getting back to my— in a state of great anxiety. getting back to my point, myjob was to decide _ back to my point, myjob was to decide whether that problem, which i think was— decide whether that problem, which i think was inevitable, it could be solved _ think was inevitable, it could be solved by— think was inevitable, it could be solved by moving people over there we had _ solved by moving people over there we had to— solved by moving people over there we had to forge on. i felt it was better— we had to forge on. i felt it was better to — we had to forge on. i felt it was better to forge on.— we had to forge on. i felt it was better to forge on. regardless of the state of _ better to forge on. regardless of the state of the _ better to forge on. regardless of the state of the individuals - better to forge on. regardless of the state of the individuals in - better to forge on. regardless of the state of the individuals in the dhse and acknowledging the remarkable and extraordinary efforts made by so many people individually within and without government to respond, it was part of your function as prime minister to ensure the league government department, the league government department, the dhse wasn't responding and dealing with the crisis as best it could. you were obliged to ensure your government was operating properly, systemically. you knew that other advisers, senior advisers in your administration were telling you that the dhs e was not operating well, it was chaotic and dysfunctional and there were real concerns being expressed by its secretary of state. why did you not take a grip on that issue? first secretary of state. why did you not take a grip on that issue?— take a grip on that issue? first of all, i take a grip on that issue? first of all. i thought _ take a grip on that issue? first of all, i thought the _ take a grip on that issue? first of all, i thought the permanent - all, i thought the permanent secretary at the department of health. — secretary at the department of health, chris wormhole was outstanding. and secondly, i repeat what i _ outstanding. and secondly, i repeat what i have — outstanding. and secondly, i repeat what i have said, i thought in the circumstances that matt hancock was doin- circumstances that matt hancock was doing a _ circumstances that matt hancock was doing a good job. he is intellectually able, he was on top of the _ intellectually able, he was on top of the subject and whatever his faitings — of the subject and whatever his failings may or may not have been, i didn't— failings may or may not have been, i didn't see _ failings may or may not have been, i didn't see any advantage to the country— didn't see any advantage to the country at — didn't see any advantage to the country at a critical time to the country— country at a critical time to the country in _ country at a critical time to the country in moving him in exchange for someone else, who i couldn't be sure that _ for someone else, who i couldn't be sure that we — for someone else, who i couldn't be sure that we were necessarily going to be _ sure that we were necessarily going to be trading up. and i thought... i did think— to be trading up. and i thought... i did think about it, of course i thought— did think about it, of course i thought about it, but i thought that was the _ thought about it, but i thought that was the best thing to do. what we also did. _ was the best thing to do. what we also did, we took control and the management of the pandemic was basically— management of the pandemic was basically centralised in number ten. throughout april, may, june and july he were aware a number of senior advisers and civil servants were highly critical of mr hancock. you were told by mark sidwell around the 2nd ofjuly that you should sack him. you were aware he had a tendency to overpromise, because you debated long and hard with mr cummings, the merits of what you had been told about testing. and there was a general lack of confidence that what he told you was accurate, but that you stuck by him for good or ill? i but that you stuck by him for good or ill? �* . . ~ but that you stuck by him for good orill? �* . but that you stuck by him for good orill? �* , _ ., or ill? i didn't stick by him for, ou or ill? i didn't stick by him for, you know. _ or ill? i didn't stick by him for, you know. any _ or ill? i didn't stick by him for, you know, any reason - or ill? i didn't stick by him for, you know, any reason other. or ill? i didn't stick by him for, l you know, any reason other than or ill? i didn't stick by him for, - you know, any reason other than that ithought— you know, any reason other than that i thought on— you know, any reason other than that i thought on the whole, in an incredibly— i thought on the whole, in an incredibly difficult circumstances, he was _ incredibly difficult circumstances, he was doing a good job. it was not obvious— he was doing a good job. it was not obvious to — he was doing a good job. it was not obvious to me that the trade and moving _ obvious to me that the trade and moving him would be worth the destruction and i also thought, which — destruction and i also thought, which is — destruction and i also thought, which is true, that in any political environment at some stage, somebody is always— environment at some stage, somebody is always telling you to sack somebody. it is what happens in politics — somebody. it is what happens in politics. and i had to aim. the last tuestion politics. and i had to aim. the last question on _ politics. and i had to aim. the last question on this, _ politics. and i had to aim. the last question on this, in _ politics. and i had to aim. the last question on this, in his _ politics. and i had to aim. the last question on this, in his witness - question on this, in his witness statement, mr cummings says in the summer of 2020, mrjohnson refused to replace mr hancock despite repeated requests from me, both cabinet secretaries and many others and being told repeatedly that leaving him there guaranteed further disasters and deaths in the autumn. his political secretary told me the prime minister wanted to keep mr hancock as the sacrifice for the inquiry. that is, of course, you may say a piece of double hearsay, but mr cummings has it in his witness statement and therefore you need to answer it. i statement and therefore you need to answer it. ., �* , ., ., answer it. i don't remember that at all. it is nonsense. _ answer it. i don't remember that at all. it is nonsense. my _ answer it. i don't remember that at all. it is nonsense. my thinking - answer it. i don't remember that atj all. it is nonsense. my thinking was very straightforward. i had a health secretary— very straightforward. i had a health secretary he was a good public communicator, in my view. i felt that— communicator, in my view. i felt that whatever his defects, i wasn't clear— that whatever his defects, i wasn't clear that — that whatever his defects, i wasn't clear that we were going to trade up by doing _ clear that we were going to trade up by doing a _ clear that we were going to trade up by doing a swap. i thought it was a very difficult time to do that. and i very difficult time to do that. and iwasn't _ very difficult time to do that. and i wasn't persuaded by the arguments. and i i wasn't persuaded by the arguments. and i don't. _ i wasn't persuaded by the arguments. and i don't, by the way, remember, he says— and i don't, by the way, remember, he says both — and i don't, by the way, remember, he says both cabinet secretaries, i don't _ he says both cabinet secretaries, i don't remember either of them specifically saying this, but may be~~~ _ specifically saying this, but may be~~~ i_ specifically saying this, but may be... i certainly remember... i certainty— be... i certainly remember... i certainly remember there was... there _ certainly remember there was... there was— certainly remember there was... there was anti—department of health mititating _ there was anti—department of health militating. in there was anti-department of health militatint. ., , , there was anti-department of health militatint. ., g , ,, militating. in the 2nd ofjuly mark sidwell said _ militating. in the 2nd ofjuly mark sidwell said i _ militating. in the 2nd ofjuly mark sidwell said i have _ militating. in the 2nd ofjuly mark sidwell said i have told _ militating. in the 2nd ofjuly mark sidwell said i have told the - militating. in the 2nd ofjuly mark sidwell said i have told the prime | sidwell said i have told the prime minister to sack hancock to save lives and protect the nhs. right. but ou lives and protect the nhs. right. but you don't _ lives and protect the nhs. right. but you don't think _ lives and protect the nhs. right. but you don't think have - lives and protect the nhs. right. but you don't think have you - lives and protect the nhs. right. i but you don't think have you asked him about— but you don't think have you asked him about that? indeed. i don't him about that? indeed. idon't remember— him about that? indeed. i don't remember that him about that? indeed. i don't rememberthat are so him about that? indeed. i don't remember that are so many words. is remember that are so many words. [55 that a remember that are so many words. is that a convenient moment? indeed, l remember that are so many words. isj that a convenient moment? indeed, a lont da that a convenient moment? indeed, a long day for— that a convenient moment? indeed, a long day for you _ that a convenient moment? indeed, a long day for you mr— that a convenient moment? indeed, a long day for you mrjohnson, - that a convenient moment? indeed, a long day for you mrjohnson, another| long day for you mrjohnson, another lon- long day for you mrjohnson, another tong day— long day for you mrjohnson, another long day tomorrow— long day for you mrjohnson, another long day tomorrow but _ long day for you mrjohnson, another long day tomorrow but that - long day for you mrjohnson, another long day tomorrow but that will - long day for you mrjohnson, another long day tomorrow but that will be i long day tomorrow but that will be it. long day tomorrow but that will be it we _ long day tomorrow but that will be it we will — long day tomorrow but that will be it. we will finish _ long day tomorrow but that will be it. we will finish tomorrow. - long day tomorrow but that will be it. we will finish tomorrow. ten i it. we will finish tomorrow. ten o'clock— it. we will finish tomorrow. ten o'clock tomorrow. _ it. we will finish tomorrow. ten o'clock tomorrow. till— it. we will finish tomorrow. ten o'clock tomorrow.— o'clock tomorrow. all rise. studio: — o'clock tomorrow. all rise. studio: we _ o'clock tomorrow. all rise. studio: we have - o'clock tomorrow. all rise. studio: we have been i o'clock tomorrow. all rise. i studio: we have been hearing o'clock tomorrow. all rise. - studio: we have been hearing from the former prime minister boris johnson in the covid inquiry and he has been offering evidence, particularly in the last hour or so. he is talking about the dynamics between himself and the civil service and some of the dynamics within cabinet. let's go to ali price and get her take on some of the highlights in the last couple of hours. i think it was a long day with plenty to pick through. it gives you a sense of how busy it is, you can see all the protesters, camera crews and media behind me, waiting for borisjohnson to leave. there are so many people here waiting and watching, people who went inside, protesters who have travelled hundreds of miles to see him, knowing they would not necessarily be able to get into the inquiry room, theyjust