which came thereafter. notably, the closure of schools and then the full legal lockdown on the 23rd. i see the period from the 16th to the 23rd as essentially, a ratcheting up of lockdown. we went for a non—mandatory lockdown followed by closure of schools, followed by a mandatory lockdown. the same behaviour fatigue argument applied to all three, they are just different levels of mpi. right. and erha -s different levels of mpi. right. and perhaps before — different levels of mpi. right. and perhaps before a _ different levels of mpi. right. and perhaps before a break, _ different levels of mpi. right. and perhaps before a break, i - different levels of mpi. right. and perhaps before a break, i want - different levels of mpi. right. and perhaps before a break, i want to| perhaps before a break, i want to ask you _ perhaps before a break, i want to ask you about _ perhaps before a break, i want to ask you about the _ perhaps before a break, i want to ask you about the rationale - perhaps before a break, i want to ask you about the rationale for. perhaps before a break, i want toi ask you about the rationale for the lockdown — ask you about the rationale for the lockdown it — ask you about the rationale for the lockdown. it is _ ask you about the rationale for the lockdown. it is vital, _ ask you about the rationale for the lockdown. it is vital, mr— ask you about the rationale for the lockdown. it is vital, mr hancock, i lockdown. it is vital, mr hancock, and the _ lockdown. it is vital, mr hancock, and the inquiry— lockdown. it is vital, mr hancock, and the inquiry has _ lockdown. it is vital, mr hancock, and the inquiry has done - lockdown. it is vital, mr hancock, and the inquiry has done this- lockdown. it is vital, mr hancock, and the inquiry has done this in. and the inquiry has done this in relation — and the inquiry has done this in relation to— and the inquiry has done this in relation to a _ and the inquiry has done this in relation to a number— and the inquiry has done this in relation to a number of- and the inquiry has done this in. relation to a number of witnesses and the inquiry has done this in- relation to a number of witnesses at great _ relation to a number of witnesses at great length, — relation to a number of witnesses at great length, to— relation to a number of witnesses at great length, to examine _ relation to a number of witnesses at great length, to examine the - great length, to examine the rationale _ great length, to examine the rationale both— great length, to examine the rationale both for— great length, to examine the rationale both for and - great length, to examine the| rationale both for and against great length, to examine the - rationale both for and against the imposition — rationale both for and against the imposition of _ rationale both for and against the imposition of the _ rationale both for and against the imposition of the lockdown - rationale both for and against the . imposition of the lockdown decision of the _ imposition of the lockdown decision of the 23rd — imposition of the lockdown decision of the 23rd of— imposition of the lockdown decision of the 23rd of march _ imposition of the lockdown decision of the 23rd of march on _ imposition of the lockdown decision of the 23rd of march on the - imposition of the lockdown decision| of the 23rd of march on the premise it was— of the 23rd of march on the premise it was the _ of the 23rd of march on the premise it was the right _ of the 23rd of march on the premise it was the right decision, _ of the 23rd of march on the premise it was the right decision, but - of the 23rd of march on the premise it was the right decision, but also i it was the right decision, but also on the _ it was the right decision, but also on the contrary— it was the right decision, but also on the contrary position - it was the right decision, but also on the contrary position that - it was the right decision, but also on the contrary position that it i it was the right decision, but also. on the contrary position that it was the wrong — on the contrary position that it was the wrong decision. _ on the contrary position that it was the wrong decision. so _ on the contrary position that it was the wrong decision. so you - on the contrary position that it was the wrong decision. so you have i the wrong decision. so you have already— the wrong decision. so you have already explained _ the wrong decision. so you have already explained how _ the wrong decision. so you have already explained how your- the wrong decision. so you have - already explained how your position is it was— already explained how your position is it was the — already explained how your position is it was the right _ already explained how your position is it was the right decision - already explained how your position is it was the right decision and, - is it was the right decision and, indeed, — is it was the right decision and, indeed, should _ is it was the right decision and, indeed, should have _ is it was the right decision and, indeed, should have been - is it was the right decision and, j indeed, should have been done is it was the right decision and, - indeed, should have been done with hindsight _ indeed, should have been done with hindsight considerably _ indeed, should have been done with hindsight considerably earlier. - indeed, should have been done with hindsight considerably earlier. i - hindsight considerably earlier. i want _ hindsight considerably earlier. i want to— hindsight considerably earlier. i want tqust _ hindsight considerably earlier. i want tojust briefly— hindsight considerably earlier. i want to just briefly look- hindsight considerably earlier. i want to just briefly look at - hindsight considerably earlier. i want to just briefly look at the i want to just briefly look at the counter— want to just briefly look at the counter argument. _ want to just briefly look at the counter argument. it- want to just briefly look at the counter argument. it is- want to just briefly look at the i counter argument. it is obvious want to just briefly look at the - counter argument. it is obvious from the evidence — counter argument. it is obvious from the evidence in— counter argument. it is obvious from the evidence in cobra, _ counter argument. it is obvious from the evidence in cobra, the _ counter argument. it is obvious from the evidence in cobra, the evidencel the evidence in cobra, the evidence before _ the evidence in cobra, the evidence before the — the evidence in cobra, the evidence before the prime _ the evidence in cobra, the evidence before the prime minister— the evidence in cobra, the evidence before the prime minister and - the evidence in cobra, the evidence before the prime minister and in. before the prime minister and in particular. — before the prime minister and in particular. the _ before the prime minister and in particular, the cobra _ before the prime minister and in particular, the cobra meeting i before the prime minister and in- particular, the cobra meeting friday the 20th— particular, the cobra meeting friday the 20th of— particular, the cobra meeting friday the 20th of march, _ particular, the cobra meeting friday the 20th of march, chaired - particular, the cobra meeting friday the 20th of march, chaired by- the 20th of march, chaired by michael— the 20th of march, chaired by michael gove, _ the 20th of march, chaired by michael gove, that— the 20th of march, chaired by michael gove, that material. the 20th of march, chaired by. michael gove, that material was being _ michael gove, that material was being placed _ michael gove, that material was being placed before _ michael gove, that material was being placed before the - michael gove, that material wasj being placed before the relevant bodies _ being placed before the relevant bodies to— being placed before the relevant bodies to suggest _ being placed before the relevant bodies to suggest firstly, - being placed before the relevant bodies to suggest firstly, if- being placed before the relevant bodies to suggest firstly, if we l bodies to suggest firstly, if we don't — bodies to suggest firstly, if we don't proceed _ bodies to suggest firstly, if we don't proceed to _ bodies to suggest firstly, if we don't proceed to the _ bodies to suggest firstly, if we don't proceed to the final- bodies to suggest firstly, if we - don't proceed to the final ultimate mandatory. — don't proceed to the final ultimate mandatory, backed _ don't proceed to the final ultimate mandatory, backed by— don't proceed to the final ultimate mandatory, backed by law- don't proceed to the final ultimate mandatory, backed by law stay - don't proceed to the final ultimate mandatory, backed by law stay at i mandatory, backed by law stay at home _ mandatory, backed by law stay at home in _ mandatory, backed by law stay at home in order, _ mandatory, backed by law stay at home in order, there _ mandatory, backed by law stay at home in order, there will- mandatory, backed by law stay at home in order, there will be - mandatory, backed by law stay at| home in order, there will be many more _ home in order, there will be many more deaths — home in order, there will be many more deaths than _ home in order, there will be many more deaths than they— home in order, there will be many more deaths than they would - more deaths than they would otherwise _ more deaths than they would otherwise have _ more deaths than they would otherwise have been. - more deaths than they would otherwise have been. and i more deaths than they would - otherwise have been. and secondly, that the _ otherwise have been. and secondly, that the impact— otherwise have been. and secondly, that the impact upon _ otherwise have been. and secondly, that the impact upon the _ otherwise have been. and secondly, that the impact upon the nhs - otherwise have been. and secondly, that the impact upon the nhs if- that the impact upon the nhs if those _ that the impact upon the nhs if those further— that the impact upon the nhs if those further final— that the impact upon the nhs if those further final steps - that the impact upon the nhs if those further final steps are - that the impact upon the nhs if| those further final steps are not taken _ those further final steps are not taken will— those further final steps are not taken will be _ those further final steps are not taken will be devastating. - those further final steps are not taken will be devastating. the l taken will be devastating. the paperwork— taken will be devastating. the paperwork shows _ taken will be devastating. the paperwork shows that - taken will be devastating. the paperwork shows that on - taken will be devastating. the paperwork shows that on the i taken will be devastating. the - paperwork shows that on the monday the 23rd _ paperwork shows that on the monday the 23rd of— paperwork shows that on the monday the 23rd of march, _ paperwork shows that on the monday the 23rd of march, there _ paperwork shows that on the monday the 23rd of march, there was - paperwork shows that on the monday the 23rd of march, there was a - paperwork shows that on the monday the 23rd of march, there was a great| the 23rd of march, there was a great deal of— the 23rd of march, there was a great deal of debate — the 23rd of march, there was a great deal of debate about _ the 23rd of march, there was a great deal of debate about noncompliance| deal of debate about noncompliance during _ deal of debate about noncompliance during the _ deal of debate about noncompliance during the previous _ deal of debate about noncompliance during the previous weekend, - during the previous weekend, attendance _ during the previous weekend, attendance at— during the previous weekend, attendance at parks _ during the previous weekend, attendance at parks and - during the previous weekend, attendance at parks and so i during the previous weekend, i attendance at parks and so on. during the previous weekend, - attendance at parks and so on. there is, attendance at parks and so on. there is. by— attendance at parks and so on. there is. by contrast. — attendance at parks and so on. there is, by contrast, very— attendance at parks and so on. there is, by contrast, very little _ attendance at parks and so on. there is, by contrast, very little debate - is, by contrast, very little debate on the _ is, by contrast, very little debate on the face — is, by contrast, very little debate on the face of— is, by contrast, very little debate on the face of the _ is, by contrast, very little debate on the face of the minutes - is, by contrast, very little debate on the face of the minutes from. is, by contrast, very little debate i on the face of the minutes from the 23rd of— on the face of the minutes from the 23rd of march— on the face of the minutes from the 23rd of march of— on the face of the minutes from the 23rd of march of the _ on the face of the minutes from the 23rd of march of the data _ on the face of the minutes from the 23rd of march of the data relating . 23rd of march of the data relating to the _ 23rd of march of the data relating to the likely — 23rd of march of the data relating to the likely impact _ 23rd of march of the data relating to the likely impact on _ 23rd of march of the data relating to the likely impact on the - 23rd of march of the data relating to the likely impact on the nhs . 23rd of march of the data relating l to the likely impact on the nhs and also. _ to the likely impact on the nhs and also. on _ to the likely impact on the nhs and also. on how— to the likely impact on the nhs and also, on how many— to the likely impact on the nhs and also, on how many more _ to the likely impact on the nhs and also, on how many more deaths- to the likely impact on the nhs and | also, on how many more deaths will be incurred — also, on how many more deaths will be incurred if— also, on how many more deaths will be incurred if those _ also, on how many more deaths will be incurred if those steps— also, on how many more deaths will be incurred if those steps are - also, on how many more deaths will be incurred if those steps are not i be incurred if those steps are not taken _ be incurred if those steps are not taken do— be incurred if those steps are not taken do you _ be incurred if those steps are not taken. do you follow? _ be incurred if those steps are not taken. do you follow? as - be incurred if those steps are not taken. do you follow? as the - taken. do you follow? as the secretary _ taken. do you follow? as the secretary of _ taken. do you follow? as the secretary of state, _ taken. do you follow? as the secretary of state, i - taken. do you follow? as the secretary of state, i want - taken. do you follow? as the secretary of state, i want toi taken. do you follow? as the i secretary of state, i want to ask you. _ secretary of state, i want to ask you. how — secretary of state, i want to ask you. how clear— secretary of state, i want to ask you, how clear were _ secretary of state, i want to ask you, how clear were you - secretary of state, i want to ask you, how clear were you that. secretary of state, i want to ask| you, how clear were you that the data _ you, how clear were you that the data showing _ you, how clear were you that the data showing the _ you, how clear were you that the data showing the terrible - data showing the terrible consequences _ data showing the terrible consequences of - data showing the terrible consequences of not - data showing the terrible i consequences of not acting, data showing the terrible - consequences of not acting, how robust _ consequences of not acting, how robust was — consequences of not acting, how robust was it? _ consequences of not acting, how robust was it? how— consequences of not acting, how robust was it? how clearly- consequences of not acting, how robust was it? how clearly was l consequences of not acting, how l robust was it? how clearly was the position— robust was it? how clearly was the position set — robust was it? how clearly was the position set out? _ robust was it? how clearly was the position set out?— robust was it? how clearly was the position set out? well, by the 23rd of march, position set out? well, by the 23rd of march. the _ position set out? well, by the 23rd of march, the trajectory _ position set out? well, by the 23rd of march, the trajectory of - position set out? well, by the 23rd of march, the trajectory of those i of march, the trajectory of those data was unknowable. because the trajectory on the 16th was knowable, predicted and the reasonable worst case scenario was happening. of course, we took very significant action on the 16th. the stay at home request, if i put it that way, undoubtedly changed people's behaviour. and therefore, it will have reduced the r number. because of the two week lag between the change of the behaviour in the public to a change in the measured case rate, we had no idea by how much it had reduced r. however, we took the view on the 20th that we needed to close schools, previously we had been hoping to get to easter and easter had school holidays and consider whether they reopen after the easter school holidays. but by the easter school holidays. but by the 20th, we decided this was continuing to go up, the reasonable worst—case scenario, we need to pull that lever, too. and by the zist, essentially, the data that we considered on the 16th with the data going up the reasonable worst—case scenario continued up the reasonable worst—case scenario. cases where people had courted a couple of weeks earlier, so we had a greater confidence that we were on the reasonable worst—case scenario, which was a terrible confidence to have. and therefore decided to go the full measure. and pull every lever available to us. and that was the consideration. so by the 23rd, there wasn't a new forecast of what would happen under the measures that were extant at that point because it would be two weeks before we knew the actual impact on the 16th. it is entirely reasonable to argue that the measures on the 16th themselves would have got to r below one, but it is entirely unknowable whether that argument is true or not. i think it is false. sol that argument is true or not. i think it is false. so i hope this is making sense because it is about how we essentially, it got worse and worse along the lines of the reasonable worst—case scenario, and my objective at that point was to get as many lever is pulled as hard as possible to stop the nhs from being overwhelmed. in the nhs being overwhelmed is incredibly important because as soon as you run out of hospital capacity, the ifr itself goes up and you get more deaths from non—covid related health problems. because people can't get treatment. so the point of overwhelming hospitals is notjust because there is a moral duty to treat everybody. it is because the number of deaths gets materially worse because essentially, the people die because they don't get treatment. and that is what we needed to stop at that point and, therefore, we pulled everything. i point and, therefore, we pulled everything-— point and, therefore, we pulled eve hin. . everything. i have asked you about the data. everything. i have asked you about the data- the _ everything. i have asked you about the data. the inquiry _ everything. i have asked you about the data. the inquiry well - the data. the inquiry well understands _ the data. the inquiry well understands the - the data. the inquiry well understands the risks - the data. the inquiry well understands the risks of. the data. the inquiry well- understands the risks of direct and indirect— understands the risks of direct and indirect mortality. _ understands the risks of direct and indirect mortality. you've - understands the risks of direct and indirect mortality. you've said - understands the risks of direct and indirect mortality. you've said on. indirect mortality. you've said on the 16th — indirect mortality. you've said on the 16th of— indirect mortality. you've said on the 16th of march, _ indirect mortality. you've said on the 16th of march, very— indirect mortality. you've said oni the 16th of march, very significant action— the 16th of march, very significant action was— the 16th of march, very significant action was taken. _ the 16th of march, very significant action was taken. those - the 16th of march, very significant action was taken. those are - the 16th of march, very significant action was taken. those are youri action was taken. those are your words _ action was taken. those are your words and — action was taken. those are your words and of— action was taken. those are your words. and of course, _ action was taken. those are your words. and of course, additional| words. and of course, additional action— words. and of course, additional action was— words. and of course, additional action was taken _ words. and of course, additional action was taken on _ words. and of course, additional action was taken on the - words. and of course, additional action was taken on the 20th, i words. and of course, additional. action was taken on the 20th, the closure _ action was taken on the 20th, the closure of— action was taken on the 20th, the closure of schools _ action was taken on the 20th, the closure of schools ordained - action was taken on the 20th, the closure of schools ordained by- action was taken on the 20th, the . closure of schools ordained by cobra on the _ closure of schools ordained by cobra on the 18th — closure of schools ordained by cobra on the 18th. the _ closure of schools ordained by cobra on the 18th. the point _ closure of schools ordained by cobra on the 18th. the point is— closure of schools ordained by cobra on the 18th. the point is this, - closure of schools ordained by cobra on the 18th. the point is this, mr- on the 18th. the point is this, mr hancoci imposed to see whether or not r would come down as far as - imposed to see whether or not rl would come down as far as would imposed to see whether or not r - would come down as far as would be necessary— would come down as far as would be necessary to — would come down as far as would be necessary to prevent _ would come down as far as would be necessary to prevent the _ would come down as far as would be necessary to prevent the collapse i would come down as far as would be necessary to prevent the collapse of| necessary to prevent the collapse of the nhs. _ necessary to prevent the collapse of the nhs. which _ necessary to prevent the collapse of the nhs, which might— necessary to prevent the collapse of the nhs, which might happen - necessary to prevent the collapse of the nhs, which might happen on . necessary to prevent the collapse of the nhs, which might happen on an| the nhs, which might happen on an exponential— the nhs, which might happen on an exponential growth— the nhs, which might happen on an exponential growth curve _ the nhs, which might happen on an exponential growth curve at - the nhs, which might happen on an exponential growth curve at some l exponential growth curve at some indeterminate _ exponential growth curve at some indeterminate point _ exponential growth curve at some indeterminate point in _ exponential growth curve at some indeterminate point in the - exponential growth curve at some| indeterminate point in the future? there _ indeterminate point in the future? there wasn't — indeterminate point in the future? there wasn't data _ indeterminate point in the future? there wasn't data before - indeterminate point in the future? there wasn't data before anybodyi there wasn't data before anybody saying. _ there wasn't data before anybody saying. and — there wasn't data before anybody saying. and your— there wasn't data before anybody saying, and your answer- there wasn't data before anybody saying, and your answer maybe . there wasn't data before anybody saying, and your answer maybe it there wasn't data before anybody. saying, and your answer maybe it is impossible — saying, and your answer maybe it is impossible to — saying, and your answer maybe it is impossible to provide _ saying, and your answer maybe it is impossible to provide a _ saying, and your answer maybe it is impossible to provide a clear- saying, and your answer maybe it is| impossible to provide a clear answer because _ impossible to provide a clear answer because you — impossible to provide a clear answer because you are _ impossible to provide a clear answer because you are dealing _ impossible to provide a clear answer because you are dealing with - impossible to provide a clear answer because you are dealing with the - because you are dealing with the context — because you are dealing with the context of— because you are dealing with the context of an _ because you are dealing with the context of an exponential- because you are dealing with thej context of an exponential growth curve _ context of an exponential growth curve. correct. _ context of an exponential growth curve. correct. but— context of an exponential growth curve. correct. but there - context of an exponential growth curve. correct. but there doesn't appear— curve. correct. but there doesn't appear to — curve. correct. but there doesn't appear to be _ curve. correct. but there doesn't appearto be any— curve. correct. but there doesn't appear to be any debate - curve. correct. but there doesn't appear to be any debate about. curve. correct. but there doesn't l appear to be any debate about just bluntly— appear to be any debate about just bluntly we — appear to be any debate about just bluntly we have _ appear to be any debate about just bluntly we have done _ appear to be any debate about just bluntly we have done all— appear to be any debate about just bluntly we have done all this - appear to be any debate about just bluntly we have done all this the l bluntly we have done all this the previous— bluntly we have done all this the previous week. _ bluntly we have done all this the previous week, the _ bluntly we have done all this the previous week, the previous - bluntly we have done all this the i previous week, the previous week's measures— previous week, the previous week's measures are — previous week, the previous week's measures are very— previous week, the previous week's measures are very dramatic. - previous week, the previous week's measures are very dramatic. it - previous week, the previous week's measures are very dramatic. it was| measures are very dramatic. it was on the _ measures are very dramatic. it was on the 20th— measures are very dramatic. it was on the 20th of— measures are very dramatic. it was on the 20th of march _ measures are very dramatic. it was on the 20th of march an _ measures are very dramatic. it was on the 20th of march an order- measures are very dramatic. it was on the 20th of march an order that| on the 20th of march an order that all nonessential— on the 20th of march an order that all nonessential retail— on the 20th of march an order that all nonessential retail and - on the 20th of march an order that all nonessential retail and travel. all nonessential retail and travel and everything _ all nonessential retail and travel and everything was _ all nonessential retail and travel and everything was shot, - all nonessential retail and travel and everything was shot, by- all nonessential retail and travel- and everything was shot, by advice, schools _ and everything was shot, by advice, schools were — and everything was shot, by advice, schools were shut. _ and everything was shot, by advice, schools were shut. —— _ and everything was shot, by advice, schools were shut. —— everything i and everything was shot, by advice, i schools were shut. —— everything was closed _ schools were shut. —— everything was closed then — schools were shut. —— everything was closed then it— schools were shut. —— everything was closed. then it was _ schools were shut. —— everything was closed. then it was about _ schools were shut. —— everything was closed. then it was about backing - schools were shut. —— everything was closed. then it was about backing it. closed. then it was about backing it with the _ closed. then it was about backing it with the force — closed. then it was about backing it with the force of _ closed. then it was about backing it with the force of law. _ closed. then it was about backing it with the force of law. why- closed. then it was about backing it with the force of law. why did - with the force of law. why did nobody — with the force of law. why did nobody say. _ with the force of law. why did nobody say. just _ with the force of law. why did nobody say, just hold - with the force of law. why did nobody say, just hold on? - with the force of law. why did nobody say, just hold on? we with the force of law. why did - nobody say, just hold on? we don't have to _ nobody say, just hold on? we don't have to do — nobody say, just hold on? we don't have to do this. _ nobody say, just hold on? we don't have to do this. we _ nobody say, just hold on? we don't have to do this. we have _ nobody say, just hold on? we don't have to do this. we have only- nobody say, just hold on? we don't have to do this. we have onlyjusti have to do this. we have onlyjust done _ have to do this. we have onlyjust done these — have to do this. we have onlyjust done these prior— have to do this. we have onlyjust done these prior measures - have to do this. we have onlyjust done these prior measures threel have to do this. we have onlyjust- done these prior measures three days before _ done these prior measures three days before we _ done these prior measures three days before we are — done these prior measures three days before. we are entitled _ done these prior measures three days before. we are entitled to _ done these prior measures three days before. we are entitled to conclude . before. we are entitled to conclude that the _ before. we are entitled to conclude that the r _ before. we are entitled to conclude that the r rate _ before. we are entitled to conclude that the r rate is— before. we are entitled to conclude that the r rate is being _ before. we are entitled to conclude that the r rate is being reduced. i that the r rate is being reduced. there _ that the r rate is being reduced. there is— that the r rate is being reduced. there is a — that the r rate is being reduced. there is a high— that the r rate is being reduced. there is a high level— that the r rate is being reduced. there is a high level of- that the r rate is being reduced. i there is a high level of compliance, but not _ there is a high level of compliance, but not as— there is a high level of compliance, but not as high— there is a high level of compliance, but not as high as _ there is a high level of compliance, but not as high as we _ there is a high level of compliance, but not as high as we would - there is a high level of compliance, but not as high as we would like - there is a high level of compliance, i but not as high as we would like and not as— but not as high as we would like and not as high— but not as high as we would like and not as high as — but not as high as we would like and not as high as the _ but not as high as we would like and not as high as the data _ but not as high as we would like and not as high as the data would - not as high as the data would suggest — not as high as the data would suggest is _ not as high as the data would suggest is required. - not as high as the data would suggest is required. let's- not as high as the data would| suggest is required. let's see whether— suggest is required. let's see whether or— suggest is required. let's see whether or not _ suggest is required. let's see whether or not our— suggest is required. let's see whether or not our measures| suggest is required. let's see - whether or not our measures work. at least for— whether or not our measures work. at least for a _ whether or not our measures work. at least for a few— whether or not our measures work. at least for a few more _ whether or not our measures work. at least for a few more days, _ whether or not our measures work. at least for a few more days, in - whether or not our measures work. at least for a few more days, in order, i least for a few more days, in order, in order— least for a few more days, in order, in order to — least for a few more days, in order, in order to pause _ least for a few more days, in order, in order to pause and _ least for a few more days, in order, in order to pause and assess- least for a few more days, in order, in order to pause and assess your. in order to pause and assess your very— in order to pause and assess your very own — in order to pause and assess your very own steps. _ in order to pause and assess your very own steps, before _ in order to pause and assess your very own steps, before the - in order to pause and assess your. very own steps, before the ultimate, the most _ very own steps, before the ultimate, the most divisive, _ very own steps, before the ultimate, the most divisive, politically- the most divisive, politically divisive _ the most divisive, politically divisive and _ the most divisive, politically divisive and unprecedented i the most divisive, politically- divisive and unprecedented step is taken _ divisive and unprecedented step is taken. ,.,, . divisive and unprecedented step is taken. . . , taken. gosh, there are so many questions _ taken. gosh, there are so many questions on — taken. gosh, there are so many questions on what _ taken. gosh, there are so many questions on what you - taken. gosh, there are so many questions on what you just - taken. gosh, there are so many questions on what you just put. | questions on what you just put. there were. first thing, it wasn't politically divisive. i there were. first thing, it wasn't politically divisive.— politically divisive. i apologise, i am not suggesting _ politically divisive. i apologise, i am not suggesting it _ politically divisive. i apologise, i am not suggesting it was - politically divisive. i apologise, i am not suggesting it was then i politically divisive. i apologise, i am not suggesting it was then it politically divisive. i apologise, i. am not suggesting it was then it is now _ am not suggesting it was then it is now. ., ., am not suggesting it was then it is now. , ., , am not suggesting it was then it is now. , ., . now. some people forget what actually happened. _ now. some people forget what actually happened. but - now. some people forget what actually happened. but it - now. some people forget what l actually happened. but it wasn't divisive at all, there was enormous consensual support across very large swathes of the population and almost all political leaders. and in fact, the fact it happened in all four nations, led by five political parties, not even four political parties, not even four political parties, at the same time demonstrates that. anyway, i set that one side. on the data, the reasons are twofold. the first is to do with what i said before, the exponential growth was happening. thankfully, is a trained economist, i am used to dealing with exponential curves and understanding the stats and maths behind them. we had greater and greater confidence that we were on the reasonable worst—case scenario path and that would lead to over half a million deaths happening. the problem with those forecasts was that they were coming true. and people have criticised the forecasts and of course, the forecast didn't happen because we took action. so that is the first thing, increase confidence that the worst was happening. the second thing is that at the same time, we did have an assessment of the sorts of levels of reduction of human interaction that would be needed to get r below one. because if r is at three, to get it below one, you need to reduce by two thirds human interactions as a rule of thumb level, and we were not seen that level of reduction. i think the sage paper said they were looking for an 80% reduction. 3�*5. of human for an 80% reduction. 75. of human attraction is to have confidence to get r below one because we thought it was three or four. that was not happening. so those of the two data points, if you like. that happening. so those of the two data points, if you like.— points, if you like. that is very clear. points, if you like. that is very clear- the _ points, if you like. that is very clear. the cobra _ points, if you like. that is very clear. the cobra minutes - points, if you like. that is very clear. the cobra minutes of. points, if you like. that is very | clear. the cobra minutes of the monday— clear. the cobra minutes of the monday indeed _ clear. the cobra minutes of the monday indeed show— clear. the cobra minutes of the monday indeed show that - clear. the cobra minutes of the monday indeed show that the l monday indeed show that the compliance _ monday indeed show that the compliance rate _ monday indeed show that the compliance rate was - monday indeed show that the compliance rate was not - monday indeed show that the compliance rate was not up . monday indeed show that the | compliance rate was not up at monday indeed show that the - compliance rate was not up at 75%. but it _ compliance rate was not up at 75%. but it describes _ compliance rate was not up at 75%. but it describes the _ compliance rate was not up at 75%. but it describes the broad - compliance rate was not up at 75%. but it describes the broad direction| but it describes the broad direction of travel— but it describes the broad direction of travel is — but it describes the broad direction of travel is having _ but it describes the broad direction of travel is having some _ but it describes the broad direction of travel is having some positive i of travel is having some positive trends — of travel is having some positive trends tube _ of travel is having some positive trends. tube travel. _ of travel is having some positivei trends. tube travel. attendances of travel is having some positive . trends. tube travel. attendances at shops _ trends. tube travel. attendances at shops and _ trends. tube travel. attendances at shops and work— trends. tube travel. attendances at shops and work attendance - trends. tube travel. attendances at shops and work attendance and - trends. tube travel. attendances at shops and work attendance and so. trends. tube travel. attendances at i shops and work attendance and so on showed _ shops and work attendance and so on showed that— shops and work attendance and so on showed that there _ shops and work attendance and so on showed that there were _ shops and work attendance and so on showed that there were very - showed that there were very significant _ showed that there were very significant drops _ showed that there were very significant drops in - showed that there were very i significant drops in attendance. showed that there were very - significant drops in attendance. so broadly— significant drops in attendance. so broadly speaking. _ significant drops in attendance. so broadly speaking, there _ significant drops in attendance. so broadly speaking, there was - significant drops in attendance. so broadly speaking, there was a - significant drops in attendance. so i broadly speaking, there was a degree of significant — broadly speaking, there was a degree of significant compliance. _ broadly speaking, there was a degree of significant compliance. but - of significant compliance. but you've — of significant compliance. but you've identified _ of significant compliance. but you've identified that - of significant compliance. but you've identified that the - of significant compliance. but - you've identified that the primary objective — you've identified that the primary objective of— you've identified that the primary objective of the _ you've identified that the primary objective of the government - you've identified that the primary objective of the government was| you've identified that the primary. objective of the government was to take action — objective of the government was to take action to — objective of the government was to take action to meet _ objective of the government was to take action to meet the _ objective of the government was to take action to meet the reasonable| take action to meet the reasonable worst-case — take action to meet the reasonable worst—case scenario. _ take action to meet the reasonable worst—case scenario. that- take action to meet the reasonable worst—case scenario. that is- take action to meet the reasonable worst—case scenario. that is to - take action to meet the reasonablei worst—case scenario. that is to say, to make _ worst—case scenario. that is to say, to make sure — worst—case scenario. that is to say, to make sure it _ worst—case scenario. that is to say, to make sure it didn't— worst—case scenario. that is to say, to make sure it didn't come - worst—case scenario. that is to say, to make sure it didn't come to - worst—case scenario. that is to say, to make sure it didn't come to pass| to make sure it didn't come to pass in its _ to make sure it didn't come to pass in its full— to make sure it didn't come to pass in its full horror. _ to make sure it didn't come to pass in its full horror. but _ to make sure it didn't come to pass in its full horror. but you _ to make sure it didn't come to pass in its full horror. but you have - in its full horror. but you have taken — in its full horror. but you have taken very— in its full horror. but you have taken very significant - in its full horror. but you have taken very significant steps i in its full horror. but you have i taken very significant steps just three _ taken very significant steps just three days _ taken very significant steps just three days before. _ taken very significant steps just three days before. why- taken very significant steps just - three days before. why procedurally and why— three days before. why procedurally and why not — three days before. why procedurally and why not in— three days before. why procedurally and why not in terms— three days before. why procedurally and why not in terms of— three days before. why procedurally and why not in terms of process - and why not in terms of process could _ and why not in terms of process could you — and why not in terms of process could you not _ and why not in terms of process could you not have _ and why not in terms of process could you not have waited - and why not in terms of process could you not have waited a - and why not in terms of process could you not have waited a few and why not in terms of process - could you not have waited a few more days to _ could you not have waited a few more days to see _ could you not have waited a few more days to see whether _ could you not have waited a few more days to see whether or— could you not have waited a few more days to see whether or not _ could you not have waited a few more days to see whether or not the - could you not have waited a few more days to see whether or not the stepsl days to see whether or not the steps you had _ days to see whether or not the steps you had already— days to see whether or not the steps you had already taken _ days to see whether or not the steps you had already taken would - days to see whether or not the steps you had already taken would bring. you had already taken would bring about _ you had already taken would bring about the — you had already taken would bring about the very _ you had already taken would bring about the very response _ you had already taken would bring about the very response to - you had already taken would bring about the very response to the - about the very response to the reasonable _ about the very response to the reasonable worst—case - about the very response to the i reasonable worst—case scenario about the very response to the - reasonable worst—case scenario that you had _ reasonable worst—case scenario that you had taken— reasonable worst—case scenario that you had taken those _ reasonable worst—case scenario that you had taken those steps _ reasonable worst—case scenario that you had taken those steps in- reasonable worst—case scenario that you had taken those steps in the - you had taken those steps in the first place — you had taken those steps in the first place to _ you had taken those steps in the first place to meet? _ you had taken those steps in the first place to meet?— first place to meet? because we didn'tjust _ first place to meet? because we didn't just want _ first place to meet? because we didn't just want to _ first place to meet? because we didn't just want to not _ first place to meet? because we didn't just want to not hit - first place to meet? because we didn't just want to not hit the i didn't just want to not hit the reasonable worst—case scenario of half a million deaths, we wanted to reduce that very significantly. not least, to ensure that the nhs... {lari least, to ensure that the nhs... of course, strategically, that must be right _ course, strategically, that must be right let _ course, strategically, that must be right let me— course, strategically, that must be right let me put— course, strategically, that must be right. let me put it _ course, strategically, that must be right. let me put it another- course, strategically, that must be right. let me put it another way. . right. let me put it another way. the plan — right. let me put it another way. the plan was _ right. let me put it another way. the plan was to— right. let me put it another way. the plan was to reduce - right. let me put it another way. the plan was to reduce r - right. let me put it another way. the plan was to reduce r belowi right. let me put it another way. - the plan was to reduce r below one. as quickly— the plan was to reduce r below one. as quickly and — the plan was to reduce r below one. as quickly and efficiently _ the plan was to reduce r below one. as quickly and efficiently and - as quickly and efficiently and speedily— as quickly and efficiently and speedily as _ as quickly and efficiently and speedily as you _ as quickly and efficiently and speedily as you could. - as quickly and efficiently and speedily as you could. on - as quickly and efficiently and | speedily as you could. on the friday. — speedily as you could. on the friday. you _ speedily as you could. on the friday. you had _ speedily as you could. on the friday, you had introduced i speedily as you could. on the friday, you had introduced ai friday, you had introduced a combined _ friday, you had introduced a combined suite _ friday, you had introduced a combined suite of— friday, you had introduced a combined suite of measuresj friday, you had introduced a - combined suite of measures designed to bring _ combined suite of measures designed to bring r _ combined suite of measures designed to bring r below— combined suite of measures designed to bring r below one. _ combined suite of measures designed to bring r below one. on _ combined suite of measures designed to bring r below one. on friday, - to bring r below one. on friday, that is— to bring r below one. on friday, that is what— to bring r below one. on friday, that is what you _ to bring r below one. on friday, that is what you thought - to bring r below one. on friday, that is what you thought would l to bring r below one. on friday, i that is what you thought would do the trick — that is what you thought would do the trick by— that is what you thought would do the trick. by monday, _ that is what you thought would do the trick. by monday, there - that is what you thought would do the trick. by monday, there was l that is what you thought would do the trick. by monday, there was a realisation — the trick. by monday, there was a realisation it— the trick. by monday, there was a realisation it wouldn't _ the trick. by monday, there was a realisation it wouldn't work. - the trick. by monday, there was a realisation it wouldn't work. it - realisation it wouldn't work. it wasn't — realisation it wouldn't work. it wasn't working, _ realisation it wouldn't work. it wasn't working, kober- realisation it wouldn't work. it i wasn't working, kober surmised, because — wasn't working, kober surmised, because the _ wasn't working, kober surmised, because the data _ wasn't working, kober surmised, because the data showed - wasn't working, kober surmised, because the data showed the - wasn't working, kober surmised, i because the data showed the level wasn't working, kober surmised, - because the data showed the level of compliance _ because the data showed the level of compliance with _ because the data showed the level of compliance with the _ because the data showed the level of compliance with the measures - because the data showed the level of compliance with the measures were i compliance with the measures were not high _ compliance with the measures were not high enough _ compliance with the measures were not high enough -- _ compliance with the measures were not high enough —— cobra. - compliance with the measures were not high enough —— cobra. why- compliance with the measures were i not high enough —— cobra. why wasn't more _ not high enough —— cobra. why wasn't more time _ not high enough —— cobra. why wasn't more time allowed _ not high enough —— cobra. why wasn't more time allowed to _ not high enough —— cobra. why wasn't more time allowed to see _ not high enough —— cobra. why wasn't more time allowed to see whether- more time allowed to see whether they would — more time allowed to see whether they would reach _ more time allowed to see whether they would reach that _ more time allowed to see whether they would reach that level- more time allowed to see whether they would reach that level of- they would reach that level of compliance. _ they would reach that level of compliance, at _ they would reach that level of compliance, at which - they would reach that level of compliance, at which point, l they would reach that level of. compliance, at which point, you could _ compliance, at which point, you could be — compliance, at which point, you could be assured _ compliance, at which point, you could be assured the _ compliance, at which point, you could be assured the measuresl compliance, at which point, you - could be assured the measures from the friday— could be assured the measures from the friday were _ could be assured the measures from the friday were working? _ could be assured the measures from the friday were working? taro - the friday were working? two reasons. first, _ the friday were working? two reasons. first, we _ the friday were working? reasons. first, we expected the friday were working ?- reasons. first, we expected the impact on people's behaviour would start as a maximum and then degrade. in the end, the public were brilliant. and there wasn't that degradation at all. but that is what we were worried about. the second is that from my point of view is the health secretary, my absolute totally primary task at this point was to ensure that nobody went without nhs provision. and that needed a very significant reduction from the reasonable worst—case scenario. and we onlyjust got it low enough. so from my seat, i was just in favour of all the action you could possibly take. and i knew there would be other voices arguing for caution and in fact, the marginal item was whether we should mandate the closure of outdoor building sites and in the end, we did not mandate that. but they almost entirely closed anyway. so there was, of course there was an argument about how far do we go? and we effectively pulled every lever except that one. but the building trade decided to pull it for us. tote trade decided to pull it for us. we are going to stop there, i'm afraid. otherwise. — are going to stop there, i'm afraid. otherwise. i— are going to stop there, i'm afraid. otherwise, i will have rebelling stenographers. i'm sorry because it is mid _ stenographers. i'm sorry because it is mid conversation. back stenographers. i'm sorry because it is mid conversation.— is mid conversation. back at half ast. the is mid conversation. back at half past. the covid _ is mid conversation. back at half past. the covid inquiry _ is mid conversation. back at half past. the covid inquiry taking i past. the covid inquiry taking another short break, matt hancock has been answering questions. he was health secretary throughout the pandemic until he resigned in 2021. this afternoon, mr hancock told the inquiry that with hindsight, the government could and should have locked down three weeks earlier than it did on march the 23rd. and that would have saved many lives, he said. he said it was clear at the end of february that action would have been needed following a cobra meeting on march the 2nd. mr hancock said that by late february, after some areas in northern italy you will remember had locked down, he said it was the moment we had realised that it was coming. but he said subsequent to that, the official advice to ministers was not to go too early. he said that that was entirely understandable at the time, but it had contributed to the government not acting earlier. he did also remain the inquiry of what he called the enormous uncertainty at that time. adding that he defended the actions of the government, but in hindsight, an earlier lockdown is what they should have done. we will be back to hear the rest of mr hancock because my evidence. a reminder that if you have justjoined evidence. a reminder that if you havejustjoined us, you can keep up—to—date with the bbc news live page on all that has gone on this afternoon it inquiry. and also, if you have it, it is on the bbc news app. now we will take a look at some of the rest of the day's news. the front man of the pogues shane macgowan has died at the age of 65. he fronted them from 1982 until their break—up in 2014. the band are best known for the christmas hit song fairytale of new york. david sillito reports. # it was christmas eve, babe # in the drunk tank # an old man said to me...# "happy christmas, your ours, i prey god it's our last." fairytale of new york, a bleak drink—sodden duet about lives gone wrong isn't your normal christmas classic. but it was trademark shane mcgowan. # i turned my face away # and dreamed about you...# his band the pogues brought a rambunctious punk fury to irish folk, but behind the noise, the drinking and the terrible teeth was a writer of rare talent. his roots were in ireland, tipperary, but he was actually born in tunbridge wells. he was a london punk, who had also won a literary scholarship to public school. but it was when he and his friends began to inject a bit of that attitude into the music of their childhood that he began to enjoy success. # as i go on my way, - they all have a story to tell...# he crafted beauty and poetry out of hard lives. and even harder drinking. something shane mcgowan knew all about. that he survived as long as he did is something of a miracle. it is true, i am out of it most of the time. — it is true, i am out of it most of the time, right? _ it is true, i am out of it most of the time, right? but— it is true, i am out of it most of the time, right? but i- it is true, i am out of it most of the time, right? but i can - it is true, i am out of it most of the time, right? but i can writej the time, right? but i can write songs— the time, right? but i can write songs when— the time, right? but i can write songs when i— the time, right? but i can write songs when i am _ the time, right? but i can write songs when i am out— the time, right? but i can write songs when i am out of- the time, right? but i can write songs when i am out of it. - i find it's easier to write. songs when i'm out of it. the stories of his excesses rather overshadowed what made him special. thankfully... # the bells were ringing out for christmas day.# ..we'll always have this to remind us. every christmas. looking back at the life of shane macgowan _ looking back at the life of shane macgowan-— looking back at the life of shane macgowan. . , u, . macgowan. earlier, my colleague sarah campbell— macgowan. earlier, my colleague sarah campbell spoke _ macgowan. earlier, my colleague sarah campbell spoke to - macgowan. earlier, my colleague sarah campbell spoke to the - macgowan. earlier, my colleague i sarah campbell spoke to the music journalist matt charlton, said how he will be remembered. that journalist matt charlton, said how he will be remembered.— he will be remembered. that is a christmas song _ he will be remembered. that is a christmas song that _ he will be remembered. that is a christmas song that it _ he will be remembered. that is a christmas song that it is - he will be remembered. that is a christmas song that it is quite . he will be remembered. that is a i christmas song that it is quite hard to get sick of. as opposed to every other one including mariah carey, it is very hard to get sick of it. that was part of the magic of the guy. he was part of the magic of the guy. he was essentially a poet that managed to tie together the punk scene of the late 1970s with the irish to tie together the punk scene of the late1970s with the irish folk scene. and also, apply his poetry to it. and that was a very, very rare talent, that sort of got lost amongst all the reputation, shall we say? but as billy bragg said, they came, folk music got hold of it by the lapels and threw it down the stairs and i can't put it better than billy bragg. j stairs and i can't put it better than billy bragg.— stairs and i can't put it better than billy bragg. stairs and i can't put it better than bill bran ., , ,, than billy bragg. i believe you saw him for many _ than billy bragg. i believe you saw him for many years _ than billy bragg. i believe you saw him for many years ago _ than billy bragg. i believe you saw him for many years ago in - him for many years ago in manchester, what was that like? j manchester, what was that like? i did, manchester is sort of weirdly a spiritual home for them. dirty old town is about salford. it is not his son necessarily, but they made it very famous. it was everything you would expect. it was alcohol drenched, chaotic, raucous and a christmas gift so guess what song they finished on? he was a great showman as well. but off the stage, as a lot of people have said, he was as a lot of people have said, he was a very gentle soul, an observer, very meditative and you wouldn't get those lyrics from someone if they were this raucous person all the time. he was a very gentle person and that really shone through in his lyrics. he and that really shone through in his l rics. , , lyrics. he will be remembered here particularly — lyrics. he will be remembered here particularly as _ lyrics. he will be remembered here particularly as the _ lyrics. he will be remembered here particularly as the face _ lyrics. he will be remembered here particularly as the face and - lyrics. he will be remembered here particularly as the face and voice, l particularly as the face and voice, or one of many faces and voices of ireland, obviously.— ireland, obviously. absolutely. i completely _ ireland, obviously. absolutely. i completely forgot _ ireland, obviously. absolutely. i completely forgot he _ ireland, obviously. absolutely. i completely forgot he was - ireland, obviously. absolutely. i completely forgot he was born l ireland, obviously. absolutely. i| completely forgot he was born in tunbridge wells where i went to school, which is a very weird link. but he was really good about writing the irishman abroad missing home and that really sort of got to a lot of people. that's why it went quite international.— people. that's why it went quite international. ~ _ ., ., , international. music 'ournalist matt charlton talking — international. music 'ournalist matt charlton talking to — international. music journalist matt charlton talking to my _ international. music journalist matt charlton talking to my colleague i charlton talking to my colleague sarah campbell. next, good news if you are a railway passenger. the rmt union have voted to accept a deal in the 18th month dispute over pay, jobs and working conditions. the agreed offerfrom11i jobs and working conditions. the agreed offer from 1a train companies included a backdated pay rise of 5% for the last year, as well as a job security guarantee. it means rmt members will no longer be involved in industrial action until at least next spring. however, train drivers represented by the union aslef will still strike. it's been nearly a year—and—a—half since the long—running series of strikes on the railway began. commuters like these in west sussex have had to get used to it. if you want to go to work instead of being stuck at home, yeah, it disrupts normal everyday life 100%. i don't understand why there's so many. i haven't been able to go into work as frequently as i otherwise would do. i understand why the unions have been striking and i've supported them throughout. today's news means the end of rmt walk—outs — for now, at least. in march, maintenance workers and signallers accepted a deal, but thousands of other union members who work for the companies which run the trains continued strikes. they've now accepted proposals involving a backdated pay rise for last year of 5%, more for the lowest paid, and job security guarantees, but a pay rise for the current financial year will still depend on agreeing changes to ways of working that the government and industry say are needed. discussions on that will continue next year, with individual operators. we'll renegotiate in the new year, in the spring time, and we'll see what the companies want to pursue. so it's a pause, a respite, but it's not, we're not celebrating this — it's another step forward in the progress. there hasn't been the same progress in the train drivers' dispute. they're in a different union, aslef, and the drivers begin another wave of industrial action tomorrow. the transport secretary and the rail delivery group, which represents the train companies, welcomed the rmt vote, but that positive development isn't the end of the journey. matt hancock has been giving evidence in the covid inquiry. ali price, what was quite significant, matt hancock said that with hindsight, the government could and should have locked down three weeks earlier. t should have locked down three weeks earlier. ~ , , earlier. i think it is very significant, _ earlier. i think it is very significant, actually. i earlier. i think it is very| significant, actually. he earlier. i think it is very - significant, actually. he put a figure on it. and we've heard politicians, some civil servants, some scientific advisers suggesting that in retrospect, we should have gone into lockdown earlier. but he put a data bit on the 2nd of march. three weeks earlier than we did. he also said fewer than 10% of the people who did die from covid would have died, sol people who did die from covid would have died, so i think that is really significant figure to put on it. we have had this sense building over the last few weeks from various witnesses that lockdown should have happened earlier, but for him to say that with such explanation of why and the deaths he think that he thinks it would have saved, very significant moment. but thinks it would have saved, very significant moment.— thinks it would have saved, very significant moment. but he does still defend _ significant moment. but he does still defend the _ significant moment. but he does still defend the government's i still defend the government's actions around that time. i still defend the government's actions around that time. i lost the beaainnin. actions around that time. i lost the beginning- but _ actions around that time. i lost the beginning. but yes, _ actions around that time. i lost the beginning. but yes, i— actions around that time. i lost the beginning. but yes, i think - actions around that time. i lost the beginning. but yes, i think you i actions around that time. i lost the l beginning. but yes, i think you were talking about his defence of the government. he is very defensive of his entire record as the health secretary, actually. as you would imagine, because he has faced so much personal criticism over the last few weeks at this inquiry. i think absolutely, he is defensive of what the decisions were made. earlier, he said as early as february that he wanted to wake up whitehall, that people were not listening to his department in terms of the severity of covid and that it took a lot in effect to get the government machine working. he said in effect, it should not have been the department of health leading on it, it should have been leading from the centre. but in his words, he couldn't get people to drive it along with his phrase. sol couldn't get people to drive it along with his phrase. so i think absolutely, very defensive of his record. �* ., ~ absolutely, very defensive of his record. �* . ~ ., ., record. but he talked about how the governor also _ record. but he talked about how the governor also decided _ record. but he talked about how the governor also decided to _ record. but he talked about how the governor also decided to change i record. but he talked about how the governor also decided to change hisj governor also decided to change his mind in mid—march, they decided to move in a different direction —— the government. move in a different direction -- the government-— move in a different direction -- the government. yes, and we have been heafina government. yes, and we have been hearina a government. yes, and we have been hearing a lot — government. yes, and we have been hearing a lot about _ government. yes, and we have been hearing a lot about the _ government. yes, and we have been hearing a lot about the states - government. yes, and we have been hearing a lot about the states over. hearing a lot about the states over the last few weeks. there was a big decision and a change in that middle weekend, the 12th and 13th of march. and then the lockdown was subsequently called on march the 23rd. we previously heard it takes a while for a government to basically kick into action. you can decide on a lockdown, but to pull the levers and get the legislative stuff you needin and get the legislative stuff you need in place, not least also the administrative stuff you need to get in place obviously takes a while. i think where we've got to in some of this evidence is a general consensus seems to be that once you've decided you need a lockdown, you need to do it straightaway because by the time you have made that decision, such a huge measure to restrict everyone's freedoms, it means things are pretty serious and you need to do it straightaway because it won't have such a great effect if you wait. and matt hancock put the number on 10%, fewer than 10% of people who died would have died had it gone earlier. we have heard similar stuff over the last two weeks about how many people might have been saved had those restrictions been put in earlier. you mentioned he has faced criticism. he hit back in this morning because my evidence, saying there was no proof, he put it, that he had lied to colleagues. yes, because we have heard various criticism over the last few weeks that he had a tendency to be overconfidence —— overconfident and overpromise and under deliver. in the most extreme sense, accusations that he lied. dominic cummings, the closest ally of borisjohnson, closest ally of boris johnson, accused him of lying and we have heard from other civil servants he told untruths. he heard from other civil servants he told untruths.— told untruths. he said that was categorically — told untruths. he said that was categorically wrong _ told untruths. he said that was categorically wrong and - told untruths. he said that was categorically wrong and the i told untruths. he said that was| categorically wrong and the who told untruths. he said that was i categorically wrong and the who said that had no basis for that, there was no proof whatsoever. so really strong on that. as you would imagine, not really a surprise he said it, but very strong facing down some of those criticisms specifically as you say that he lied. ~ ., ., ., lied. we are going to get quite detailed because _ lied. we are going to get quite detailed because a _ lied. we are going to get quite detailed because a lot - lied. we are going to get quite detailed because a lot of- lied. we are going to get quite detailed because a lot of the i lied. we are going to get quite i detailed because a lot of the people who have been giving evidence have only given a day's evidence, but matt hancock will be there for at least a couple of days. trier? least a couple of days. very detailed- — least a couple of days. very detailed. we _ least a couple of days. very detailed. we get _ least a couple of days. very detailed. we get some i least a couple of days. very i detailed. we get some really, least a couple of days. - detailed. we get some really, really technical stuff as well. in fact, we are getting to that a bit technical stuff as well. in fact, we are getting to that a hit this afternoon. that is the point of this afternoon, to meticulously go through some of those decisions that were made and exactly why they were made and that sort of thing. he has dated to come back tomorrow. i think what will be interesting tomorrow as we will probably hear the council to the inquiry won't finish today, we will go on a little bit tomorrow. and then what we have seen in this inquiry previously is you get the main lawyer for the inquiry asking the questions and then you might get, you often get lawyers for other so—called core participants asking questions. that can be all sorts of different participants, that could be charities for children, on behalf of ethnic minority groups. trade unions, that sort of thing. i think what will be really interesting tomorrow will be the lawyer asking questions on behalf of the bereaved families. earlier, ithink questions on behalf of the bereaved families. earlier, i think they have probably gone inside now, there was a protest outside here of campaigners who are campaigning on behalf of those who have lost loved ones, on behalf of bereaved families. and of course, all of them have very upsetting stories to tell of how they lost loved ones and a number of them are sitting in the public gallery in the inquiry. sol think we will hear from their lawyers tomorrow and some of the testimony i suspect that will be put to matt hancock will be really quite upsetting. we to matt hancock will be really quite u -asettin. ~ ., to matt hancock will be really quite u-asettin. ~ ., , ., to matt hancock will be really quite u-asettin. ~ .,, ., upsetting. we will go straight back to the inquiry _ upsetting. we will go straight back to the inquiry which _ upsetting. we will go straight back to the inquiry which has _ upsetting. we will go straight back to the inquiry which hasjust i to the inquiry which has just restarted. sage had not debated social distancing _ sage had not debated social distancing countermeasures sage had not debated social- distancingcountermeasures until i distancing countermeasures until i said the _ distancing countermeasures until i said the 24th _ distancing countermeasures until i said the 24th of— distancing countermeasures until i said the 24th of march, _ distancing countermeasures until i said the 24th of march, in - distancing countermeasures until i said the 24th of march, in fact i distancing countermeasures until i said the 24th of march, in fact itsi said the 24th of march, in fact its the 25th — said the 24th of march, in fact its the 25th of— said the 24th of march, in fact its the 25th of march. _ said the 24th of march, in fact its the 25th of march. mr— said the 24th of march, in fact its the 25th of march. mr hancock i said the 24th of march, in fact its i the 25th of march. mr hancock fought it was— the 25th of march. mr hancock fought it was the _ the 25th of march. mr hancock fought it was the 26~ — the 25th of march. mr hancock fought it was the 26. sorry, _ the 25th of march. mr hancock fought it was the 26. sorry, february. - the 25th of march. mr hancock fought it was the 26. sorry, february. i- it was the 26. sorry, february. i have _ it was the 26. sorry, february. i have been— it was the 26. sorry, february. i have been asked _ it was the 26. sorry, february. i have been asked to _ it was the 26. sorry, february. i have been asked to make - it was the 26. sorry, february. i- have been asked to make absolutely clear. _ have been asked to make absolutely clear. there — have been asked to make absolutely clear, there was _ have been asked to make absolutely clear, there was a _ have been asked to make absolutely clear, there was a debate _ have been asked to make absolutely clear, there was a debate on - have been asked to make absolutely clear, there was a debate on the i have been asked to make absolutely clear, there was a debate on the 4th of fehruary— clear, there was a debate on the 4th of february at — clear, there was a debate on the 4th of february at sage _ clear, there was a debate on the 4th of february at sage about _ clear, there was a debate on the 4th. of february at sage about facemasks, schools. _ of february at sage about facemasks, schools. ppe — of february at sage about facemasks, schools, ppe and _ of february at sage about facemasks, schools, ppe and a _ of february at sage about facemasks, schools, ppe and a number— of february at sage about facemasks, schools, ppe and a number of- schools, ppe and a number of measures _ schools, ppe and a number of measures 0n— schools, ppe and a number of measures. 0n the _ schools, ppe and a number of measures. 0n the 13th - schools, ppe and a number of measures. 0n the 13th of i schools, ppe and a number of- measures. 0n the 13th of february, tells debate — measures. 0n the 13th of february, tells debate about _ measures. 0n the 13th of february, tells debate about mass _ measures. 0n the 13th of february, i tells debate about mass gatherings, school, _ tells debate about mass gatherings, school, work— tells debate about mass gatherings, school, work and _ tells debate about mass gatherings, school, work and prisons _ tells debate about mass gatherings, school, work and prisons and - tells debate about mass gatherings, school, work and prisons and a i school, work and prisons and a number— school, work and prisons and a number of— school, work and prisons and a number of other— school, work and prisons and a number of other areas. - school, work and prisons and a number of other areas. and i school, work and prisons and a | number of other areas. and the school, work and prisons and a i number of other areas. and the full sweep— number of other areas. and the full sweep of— number of other areas. and the full sweep of countermeasures - number of other areas. and the full sweep of countermeasures was i sweep of countermeasures was discussed — sweep of countermeasures was discussed on _ sweep of countermeasures was discussed on the _ sweep of countermeasures was discussed on the 25th. - sweep of countermeasures was discussed on the 25th. so - sweep of countermeasures was discussed on the 25th. so the l discussed on the 25th. so the lockdown— discussed on the 25th. so the lockdown was— discussed on the 25th. so the lockdown was on _ discussed on the 25th. so the lockdown was on the - discussed on the 25th. so the lockdown was on the 25th. i