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Witness can. so it s potential testimony. so elie honig, take that one step further. if he was asked questions about those conversations, what answers about those conversations might be problematic for donald trump? so mike pence is a crucial witness here. as a prosecutor, you absolutely have to have his testimony, for better or for worse. this is why prosecutors are willing to go into the courts and fight to win to get his testimony. i would absolutely focus on what andy pointed out. especially the one-on-one conversations between mike pence and donald trump. and let s keep in mind, there is no other witnesses to these conversations. donald trump is not going to be going into the grand jury. they re not going to subpoena him. he is not going into the grand jury. it s really all on pence s own recollection and testimony about it. i do have some questions about frankly, how forthcoming he will be. there is no tape of these conversations that we know of to keep him in check. and if ....
Testimony can t really be overstated. as we know from the work of the january 6th committee, there were numerous lines of potential criminal conspiracies the committee looked into. two of them involved putting pressure on mike pence, one to pressure pence to refuse to certify the election at all, and the second line of attack was to pressure pence to delay the certification needed of the election. we know that there were meetings about those topics between pence and trump on january 4th, on january 5th, and of course the infamous outraged phone calls from trump to pence on the morning of january 6th. mike pence has likely provided intricate, direct first-person testimony about the assistance of those conversations. and after relating the substance of the conversations, the prosecutors can ask him things like how did that make you feel? did you feel pressured to do what the president was telling you? so it really wraps up those moments in a way that no other ....
i think it does indicate that they re clearly towards the end of their investigation. how much is left. that s hard to say. pence is certainly, as you say, the top of the food chain, although i want to be clear. i would really doubt that pence is being looked at as a target of this investigation. i think he s pretty fully in the witness category. the one other person that i would say, john, who is really the remaining outlier here that we re wondering or when he will is mark meadows. and meadows, we could sit around and argue all night as to who could be the more significant witness, pence or meadows. there is good arguments on both sides. the bottom line is i m sure jack smith wants to get meadows in front of that grand jury. he won a motion in front of the court a week or so ago that blew out some of the obstacles to getting meadows in there. so i think that s probably the last really big one that we re aware of that should be happening soon. so elie, there were some ....
Pence is certainly, as you say, at the top of the food chain, although i want to be clear, i would really doubt that pence is being looked at as a target of this he is pretty fully in the witness category. the one of the person that i would say, john, who is really the remaining outlier that were we are wondering when he will testify is mark meadows. meadows, we can sit around and argue all night who could be the more significant witness, pence or meadows. there is good arguments on both sides. the bottom line is, i am sure jack smith wants to get meadows in front of that grand jury. he won a motion in front of the court a week or so ago that blew out some of the obstacles to getting meadows in there. . i think that s probably the really last big one where that should be happening soon. so, elie honig, there were some parameters here that a federal judge had stipulated before mike pence testified. he had to testify about his ....
Was poised to answer questions from prosecutors about his direct conversations with donald trump in the run-up to january 6th. and as you pointed out, this lasted for five hours. so it gives you an indication of the painstaking detail that prosecutors likely wanted to get into with pence, perhaps about a couple of things they heard from other witnesses, but also just events that were playing out between pence and the former president that perhaps only he could speak to, only he could provide in first-hand detail. so does this appearance before the former vice president suggest anything about the special counsel s timetable at this point? well, you know, it doesn t mean that mike pence is the last witness that they re going to want to talk to in this investigation, but in many ways, he is the pinnacle. he is the person who is the target of donald trump s pressure campaign to try to block the certification of the 2020 election. he is, as you pointed out, the target of many of the rio ....