vera joined russia. south africa perhaps shine a military drills a, i suppose, as a class, divide in all the sorts of things elite in south africa, looking down at the a government in south africa for doing anything with russia and a different story for the masses. well, thank you very much and i have to say, i'm the university of so re, i even though i'm based in johannesburg, i think will lot of growth visits. and the whole ukraine issue has divided opinion in south africa. generally. i think it's also important to note that among the ruling african national congress leads many of the educated and received military training in the soviet union at the time. and a lot of sympathy for russia generally. and the way at the time, but big lead the us and britain under reagan was supporting the regime against which the n c was fighting. so those dynamics are quite important to understand in south africa position. and i think, i don't think it's clear as a lead math divides because among many of the black lead that i talk to they may not necessarily pull the russian aggression against ukraine box. they tend to be very critical of what they see as western hypocrisy actions lightly us inspection and iraq, which was done without un authorization. so they did divide. ready straightforward rusher a course doesn't that it wasn't even in an aggression compares it to, i don't know was tanza near going into you gander in 978 and aggression. you don't also believe that nato mainstream media is running the story nonstop. russia is starving africa. i know lover of coven nato countries to allow fertilizer to be given to africa from russia. i know it's not perhaps being starved, a weapons leaking out, perhaps from the grain conflict into islam. this group says from previous was, is russia solving africa? i don't put it crudely as that we are li, the conflict. and i do see it, i actually as a, as a back aggression, by the way. i say, i just, i see the us intervention in iraq as aggression, and i think both need to be con them. but that's the way that the alignment is meant to work both. i think they're different and may be trimmed pool crisis. how about africa? the kobe crisis was one, the crisis is and i think the fact that a lot of the food and grain that africa is getting from russia and ukraine for the also accept debate that, that issue. but i wouldn't put it crudely as russia in africa. actually just on the aggression point, since we are addressing a un secretary general of the subject of your book, i mean, you saying you see it is aggressive. so you'd see the invasion of france by the allies in 1943 as of acts of aggression as well. but the problem was actually attacked by non german. that was a veto v. c. france, they, there was a government in france was in the anyway, i don't want to do long into the idea of a grant because i think maybe we should focus maybe on our issues. but i don't think they watch the bait that nancy. germany was the grass and the whole war. i think we can all agree with either we can all agree with that one. so why choose boutros boutros god is the subject of the biography. i mean, he's no noted by some to be an apologist for french war crimes, of course, in what was rolling over to us israel priorities in palestine. what, why did you choose boutros boutros gully? the past reason is that out of the former, a un secretary general that we've had since the current one antonia perez. there has been no biography in english, on boutros, boutros golly, the only one has been by the french diplomat by the. ready un and i thought there was a conscious erasure by some western scholars of drugs, galleys, achievement and reg court. i am also going after them myself, really interested in the most intellectually accomplished un secretary general on record. i mean, boudreau scholarly, got his b, h, the, from the boy and brought him, published over a 100 scholarly articles. he wrote the book on the united nations in the arab language and was a very accomplished in international law scholar before he came into office. he also was the 1st africa and i'm the arab united nations secretary general. ready and he occupied the office as a really significant time when the cold war between russia us have thought after 4 to 5 years. and when you and peacekeeping was greatly expanded, and there was an opportunity to resolve some of the regional conflicts calls by the . ready ready call to remind us. well yeah, reason remind us what years he was there. he died in in 2016, but he was un secretary general between 9 to 92 and 99 to 6. so you guess slab via the sanctions on iraq. and actually madeline albright, let's go straight to that figure moving. he's in your book, not a great friend, boutros boutros gully. people can watch the clip of madeline albright clinton's secretary of state, celebrating some people say, but suddenly arguing that the deaths of 500000 iraqi children are a price worth paying for us interests in the middle east. they didn't get on. no, not so madeline albright was with us the united nation. by the time that boutros, boutros golly, was there and she basically found him arrogant. she had found him dismissive of her own diplomatic intellectual skills. i'm blue cross was somebody who was it patricia and you know, hid it. he came from a gives 200 families. his grandfather had been prime minister egypt fascinated in 19, and he had to call the school for a minute. and he'd been devotee, foreign minister, egypt for 14 years himself, he knew his wife, and he came from a very slow lived family background. i'm believed noblesse or bleach the obligations of rank. and so he didn't really cow to madeline albright just because she was a us and believe that she almost seemed to think that because she was a representative of the us, whatever she had said was little. she didn't need to kind of combine the whole team members of the un security council. so it was clear that these 2 personalities will go into clash. and i think i love the final point that's in both of them. is that the power low? the un, thanks, 3 general, have very limited. and the big power on the security council often say that there are expected 3 to a general and the us full. so that booklets go, lee was too independent minded. i'm sure that they wanted him to be more compliant . and to do what the u. s. wanted him to do. so those were really the clash between the 2. i mean, clearly we invite antonio terrorism, who isn't african, or arab and will no doubt say, you know what pressures are there right now? you don't mention, i don't think the direct wiki league snowden allegations or revelations that the un secretary general coffee and, and his success boutros boutros college success was bugged by the c. i. am i 6, i don't know whether you found in your research or the boutros, boutros galleys office with bugs. but you do, you do say that we just, we just got a religious man. no way. i don't want to say something on your point. that close was religion growth or what they call think chris can, which is the minority in egypt. and he wasn't, he didn't say himself, i was really particularly religious. and he was, he of course, went to church as a child and i don't believe well, as he grew older, you seem to be more of an extra cost of tradition. what he did on quote from the bible. and he did at least have read all the called co, christie and religion. do you think? if boutros, boutros, god, he was still alive and the inspector general, he would have allowed it to pass that the european union equivalent a foreign minister, joseph burrell, said, europe is a garden. most of the rest of the world is a jungle, something redolent or the kind of well, it's throughout your book, implicit, the racism against boutros, boutros girly europe is the garden. the rest of the world is a jungle. yes, there was a rabo unfortunate comment and you know, boutros golly, there's no soft fools. gladly knew his knew his intelligence and you know, it, he, he was even brave enough to tell the powerful western powers on the un security council that they were focusing on there. because that was a rich man's ball. and they were like in africa as open conflicts. and when he was why he was being given such a rough time by the british media over boston, they're, he's, they're quite candid, me because i am the wog. so boutros garley, new rates of them have the experience and he was very outspoken about, that's why he didn't kind of hop on it because he relied on his intellect. he knew that he was, you know, he, he could basically out the, you know, it also get by. right. okay. and about, joe, i'll stop you. the more from the author of boutros, boutros golly, are a profit proselytize, a pharaoh and pope after this break. ah, ah, none of what is be spoken by the united states all by you when he's really cool that fighting a war, essentially to prove in the it on the surgeon. so russian follower, once again in this region and saw that it was one of the limits i've watched as it is, it's possible, ah, some nations may be able to turn a blind eye to atrocities. in other countries, the united states of america is different. wherever people long to be free, they will find a friend in the united states. ah, with a little bit of anybody at all to anybody basie. so the city, if you draw, you look at the book they incentives of each cigarette. a few color revolutions is one among several means to reach the goal of conquering foreign lands and bringing them onto the helm of u. s. western economic interest. people inside it, i do not keep it to everybody. the democrats. yeah. new tunic, correct? so no, that's a little bit soft about what i mean. the final goal seen revolutions to ensure that so there are no independent players in the world anymore. ah, welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with professor at the k at about joe, the former director of the institute of an african thought and conversation at the university of johannesburg on yugoslavia. and it has to be said, i mean, obviously on iraq in those sanctions. some sector generals might have resigned over half a 1000000 deaths in iraq. as regards the yugoslavia, i'm not sure whether you think that was aggression, nato bombing yugoslavia, and destroying that her place completely white. why was he not more vocal in stuffing up the breakup of yugoslavia, which nato went for time. and tim began during his tenure and that was the worst was in the 2nd world war. that was the beginning of things. maybe even the seeds of the grain will well, you see, i mean my understanding of the yoga la boys is that these were woolfolk session. so you had a lot. ready basically so crow, muslim world or who are basically seek into cow, ethnically, peer territory want i think you cannot use the west style is neglect on you caution and failure to intervene to way, sorry, i'm sorry. profess, i've what there are so many books and how about the war in yugoslavia? no, i'm chomsky who's been on this show in the past few weeks as written some of them this was nothing to do with ignorance of what was going on. this was a deliberate attempt to destroy the last bastion of something approaching ante neoliberalism in europe. it was something quite, quite different to that. let's get on to something nice about that. let me just make your final point please. if i may, i wasn't trying to say they were ignorant about that because don't forget that france i'm britain had troops on the ground. i'm saying move that they will be on do leave course year about stopping slower. so when will know who to track to say they started, it hang on, the detract to say it was a deliberate attempt to call them you love you after the german recognition of courageous in the 1st place. but anyway, i'd want to get through and do you get a lot of politics? i would say that you know, the leaders in bell grade certainly don't say that there was. this was a deliberate attempt by nature in washington and madeleine albright and others to to come up because of it. interesting that you mentioned eritrea and ethiopia, and boutros. boutros got it because in the past few months, perhaps in bus year or so, some have accused nature nations of trying to drum up g grey, rebellion there against the peace process that is being successful between as martin addis ababa. why was boutros boutros garley remarkably even handed, even as the nature nations were involved in, you know, some people call the live aid war desperately backing the war on eritrea from the then if you're a pin dictator, the civil boy, the d. o b, i have been going on for 30 years, as you know, since the 1991 when malice and his troops basically took over at it. and melanie was able to consolidate in hold on power and the war between yogi and there a trip. the border war that happened between the 2 broke out late that was blue cut left off by the time that that wall to wall broke out. it was while coffee and then the un secretary general. i mean clearly. yeah, and, and he's not following the nature line on, on our address there in the book, given you a previous scholarly work. and i know this biography is a, is a scholarly, disinterested look at the form is actually general the united nations. it's clear that you damn him with frame praise when you talk about his betrayal of an online movement. time and time again, although you couch it in more nuanced prose. perhaps. why did he betrayed, why did he understand? he went to yugoslavia and in front of tito. so he did a good job is he attacked cuba over angola where of course, the seeds of and go this position today who knows we leverage visits still were sewn from havana. i think it's important. we put this in context because i was talking about is interaction with the number line. ready but not when he was un secretary general, but when he was dead for a minute of egypt and what he was trying to do then was having that go. she ate the stream with israel with the arrow was overwhelmingly rejected. it was trying to prevent egypt, isolation diplomatically. i'm all the wise at the non aligned and i think sometimes that very closely. ready in the way he engaged with respect that leaders of them on the line movement like castro and others. and, you know, sometimes nearly lost support, but in the end, most members of the non aligned movement. so all 10 o at least agreed not to expel egypt as many of the arab radical countries in the man had wanted to happen. would it made any difference if he'd been secretary general when nato destroyed africa's riches per capita, country libya and well, the opponents of the was a basically led up to the assassination and one will get happy. you know, i think it's very important to recognise, as i said, the, at the very limited powers of the united nations secretary general is basically a servant of the security council and the powerful members especially the permanent bi, vito world empowered, cool, manipulate the professor why? why then do they bug coffee? and on his successor, we know from the snow, snowden had to run north. why bug is off as if it has no power? no. ca. and i might come book an office to find out what is been discussed in order to know what positions that they go on. you go out there on iraq must be important them being secretary general. well, it's important to me so far as you deal with all the world leave as you know. so a you office has also been to the been booked bugs have been found there as well. but i wouldn't say that the, the african union commission, most kids, but they clearly powerful monitor or me formation. the position of african boss could be it could be. but i would argue that in practice, boudreau often had to do things that he instinctively would not have had to do. he had to bow of power. one of the things he complained about the most was the sanctions are not just the rock bottom, libya and he rotates. men was 9 tonight, denied after he left power after he left office. which really was this thing give indictment of the us in particular. and then he made very clear how unfair and one sided and balance it found. the western sang shows on both iraq and yet. so there will be always you have to go there. i mean, most ordinary men and women around the world. if they find that what they're doing is somehow giving an imprimatur to the mass. murder of one colleague, let alone the killing wound to go displacing of tens of millions of men, women and children. they resign their position. so it being quite i yeah, i will actually argue that it's a minority of people who are principle enough to raise high. and i think most people make calculations that you know, this is the, the benefits in them personally. all they make it calculation as i think book trust . golly, did that even though some of these things can be an hour to do all their good things that i'm able to do in live barrier in syria. leo, in all the places to support regional peacekeepers who are trying to save lives and provide humanitarian relief to people in distress. i'll profess those are the kinds of calculations for me that will be it may well professor, you are clearly not making a calculation. personally, when you advocate packs african, that's not going to get you invited to any i m f. a will bank of frances just us, what is back to africa and who do you believe we should watch out for who are going to be advocating this 21st century for africa, obviously. now, in the spotlight, partly because of the war in ukraine is new global alliance is a forged packs. africa is basically a concept that was up to 967 by one of my intellectual mentors. the late kenyan academic, allen, missouri. and the basic idea is that outside of should stay out of the contraband africa. i left africans with though they own conflicts. and he explained that through the concept come principal of continental jurisdiction, almost like a monroe doctrine for africa. and he argued that through the principle of racial sovereignty, intra african intervention by african states themselves in neighboring countries was more legitimate than those by outsiders. today is a bit like afi, right? that's the same kind of thing that we advocated. dorothy was actually inspired by cuomo chroma. so in terms of his foreign policy was in the air to kwan the crew back in trying to champion and they kind of kind of african security architecture. isn't there a problem? clearly there's a problem with anyone who advocates that who has power not in an academic way, not in any way by a politician. often they get killed. well i, you know, my view is really got out there wasn't killed, but champion in african, they all get overthrown, new crew, me a new chrome. it didn't do well either. nor did chrome or the patrice limit that they actually live. there has been recent literature that shows that the i was involved in getting rid of the crew, me and that's been very meticulously document that in a book called white mist cheap. that's recent media come out. what i would argue that was not necessarily a fascinated champion in africa, and he was assassinated, full of pose in west position and issues like lockerbie and the other issues from the past. i think that's okay, but we didn't groom our problem with yeah. you know? yeah. i think would no more, i think would be the closest to that because it was clear that belgian and the us in particular had their hand in getting rid of patrick lumber because. ready the that the radical nationalist so that in 1961. ready i concede that well after whom a university in moscow was named, patrice and a member professor at a k, at about joe. thank you so much for joining us. that's it for the show. we'll be back next saturday with the brand new episode, but until then you can still keep in touch my social media. if it's not sense that in your country, we can always had to our channel going underground tv on rumble dot com to watch. new and old episodes of going underground see very soon the the o need to come to the russian state will never be as tight as on the no santini div. asking him then i'll send them up for a group in the 55. would this be the keys on i need to speak to anyone else with will ben in the european union, the kremlin media machine, the state on russia for date and split our t spoke neck even our video agency, roughly all bands on youtube with november 22nd 2022 outraged orthodox christians confronted ukrainian security service offices, looking entrances and exits to keep the oldest monastery. they were looking for a russian spies among the monks. we mean dealer seeming or perform a reason for the brutal cried down one churches. parishioners had sung a song about russia. ah, it's wrong been reason enough to condemn any old adult christian attack in prison and even kill them. russia, what are you russia finance to pick grass when you laugh. store new in your store of pro us layla. fenusse total us, you used to stop a sample i use from his dog. this seems to me just sign them truth. ah, we have never intentionally violated any countries territory. that's the message from china as the u. s. suggest beijing is deliberately using its pollutants to spy on them. inciting attacks on russian regions that tom moscow condemned a u. s. delivery of long range rockets to ukraine, which could potentially hit the russian region of crimea. the g 7 nations impose a price cap on russian oil products to cut off those revenue. while president putin says the countries simply will not export oil. the states supporting the limitation .

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