0 i think i was selfish and i think i just took the money. >> i think i understand. >> i asked you a series of questions yesterday about -- at least relating one conversation you had with one of these clients, and i'm just going to ask you this one, do you remember looking tony satterfield in the eye and lying to him? >> i remember lying to tony satterfield and i remember looking him in the eye on many occasions. >> and lying to him? >> yeah. >> okay. lying to his family? >> i lied to his family. i don't know if i did it in person, but i know i had phone conversations with them where i lied to them. >> okay. let's talk a little bit about the pills, if we can. >> okay. and you've already testified as have other people, that you were still able to function as a lawyer over the years despite the pills that you were using. is that correct? >> yes, sir. >> and you were able, of course, during this period of time to engage in these relatively complicated thefts that increased over the years that we've just talked about despite the pill usage, is that correct? >> i was. >> hmm? >> i was. >> all right. and you were also able to during this time period convince your staff that nothing was amiss with all of these exhibits, despite your pill usage? >> i mean, most of those didn't require convincing my staff, but just so we're on the same page, again, i acknowledge that i certainly allowed them to be misled. i certainly allowed them to do things that i shouldn't have done on my behalf knowing that they trusted me. >> how many -- how many pills were you using a day? >> depends on a number of items, most importantly how strong the pill was. >> okay. well, let's talk about -- let's start maybe in january of 2021 and move forward. can you describe to the jury what your daily pill intake was like? >> i think at that time most of what i was purchasing was 30 milligram pills instant release, oxycodone. probably mixed in with some oxycontin, which is made of oxycodone. it's just time release. i would have been taking anywhere from 1,500 milligrams maybe to maybe a thousand or -- maybe a thousand milligrams or 1,200 milligrams on a day i didn't take as much or didn't have as much up to, i mean, there are days, many days, a lot of days, most days were more than that, and many days would be, you know, 20 -- more than 2,000 milligrams a day. >> how many pills is that? >> it depends on the strength of the pill. >> that you just mentioned. >> if i took 30 -- if i had 30 milligram pills, you figure 100 pills would be 3,000 milligrams. >> okay. 100? >> 100. >> so you're taking 60 a day or something like that? i mean -- >> there were days where i took more than that. there were days when i took less than that. >> and how would you take them during the course of the day? i mean, how many are you taking at one time, how frequent in this time period january to june? >> you know, there's a point in time -- and i'm not sure when it was -- that i think it was well before that where -- and you have to understand this, this is something that i didn't -- i can still remember the first time i ever took an oxycontin. >> can i ask you to answer my question, and then i'll let you explain all you want. my question is how many were you taking a day during this time from january to june. answer that first, please, and if you want to explain i'm happy to let you do so. >> i'm not positive, and here's why is because over the years, as i was saying, the first oxycontin, one oxycontin made me -- literally made me sick. and that was when i was transitioning from hydrocodone to oxycodone. it made me sick because it was a really, really strong one, and so, you know, one oxycontin pill was like ten hydrocodone pills, so -- but anyway, as i took more and more and over the years it just- you know, you build up a tolerance to pain pills and so what might give me this energy -- the reason -- one of the reasons i became so addicted is, you know, some people talk about pain pills and how they make them lethargic, and you know, where they can't do anything and they feel -- opiates gave me energy, i mean, whatever i was doing, it made it more interesting. you know, it made me want to do it longer, you know, to go on a drive, it made driving -- it just -- at the beginning it made everything better, i took so much -- it got to a point where i was taking so much just to not backslide or go into withdrawals or have all those symptoms, and so it got to the point where i was taking the amounts that i came to be taking in the time period you're talking about january to june. it evolved over time. it wasn't like it just started, mr. waters. >> can you give me one example of a day during that time period? did you start at # 8:00 in the morning or whatever time you got up or take one every 30 minutes? i'm giving you a chance to explain. >> it would totally depend -- it would totally depend on any number of circumstances. starting a day, one of the main things that this would depend on was how late the day before i had taken pills and how many i had taken and did i take them during the night, did i wake up during the night and take them. let's just say that it had be a while since i took any and i slept and i woke up, all right? then i would immediately first thing take pills because it's been a while, a lot of times if you slept and hadn't taken pills, you'd wake up and you could tell the beginnings of those, i wouldn't say there were really withdrawals, but the agitation you would feel. you would take it right away. first thing i would do is take pills. >> that's how strong the withdrawals are for opiates, correct? that you feel agitation until you can take another pill. >> yes, i mean, that's just agitation's the tip of the iceberg when it comes to withdrawals. opiate withdrawals. >> i think you said in your -- what's been played for the jury in the telephone conversation with special agent kelly that -- and you talked about withdrawals, just how strong they are, how you're willing to do anything to make them stop, correct? >> i think what i said is almost anything. >> almost anything. >> well, describe that, please. >> i mean, you're sick. i mean, you're physically -- you know, you are physically sick. it's like having the flu, when you ache and your joints hurt. you don't want to get up. you can't get up. that's after a while. it starts with what you're talking about agitation, and you know, fidgety, everybody talks about how fidgety i was. but it starts with that then it goes to, you know, you just -- you might be sitting here and just all of a sudden sweat's running down your face, all over your body, like you ran a marathon. you literally sweat that much. the next thing that comes on after about, i don't know, 12 hours is i call it jumpy legs, but i mean, you literally -- there's no way that you could sit right here in this chair. i mean, you couldn't -- you couldn't remain sitting. i mean, you would have to get up and move around. and i mean, it's like your legs don't want to work. and that lasts for about anywhere from 18 to 24 hours. during that period, the -- you know, the intestinal issues come in and i mean, you literally, you can't control yourself. you have diarrhea like you have food poisoning. you throw up. you you're physically, physically sick. >> how many times did you try to self-detox? >> mr. waters, dozens, dozens, if not hundreds. you know, so many i can't tell you. >> and those symptoms you just described are extremely power. and made it very difficult to do that, is that correct? >> made it difficult to -- >> to try to self-detox. >> oh, extremely hard. >> you mentioned yesterday that you were paranoid. how long had that been going on? >> well, no i didn't say that i was paranoid. what i said was as the addiction evolved, there would be situations where you would have these paranoid thoughts. >> and when did those first start? >> i can't tell you when they first started. >> i mean, how long before june of 2021, a week, a month. no, no, no, it was as my addiction got worse, it was a significant period of time. >> how long would you have these paranoid thoughts? >> usually a matter of seconds. i mean, it was something, again, my whole life you wouldn't see me where i didn't have pills on me, and that's where i kept them. i kept them on me because i was scared to put them somewhere for fear somebody would find them, so i kept them on me. so if you saw me, i had pills on me. i had a pocket full of pills on june the 8th, on june the 8th when i was sitting in david owens' patrol car. so i always had them on me. might i turn -- i might be going to edisto and i'd turn on hampton street right out here and a police car pulls out. boom, i have pair thyroid -- paranoid thoughts, you know, just -- but i could always say -- you're not doing anything wrong, he's not following you, and i could get past it in a matter of seconds. >> did anybody in your family ever see you having these severe withdrawals? >> absolutely. >> and who did? >> mags, pau-pau, bus, my dad, randy, john marvin, and just to be clear, randy and john marvin never saw me having withdrawals before september. >> and i thank you for clarifying that. prior to june of 2021, who in your family saw you having these withdrawals? >> bus, pau-pau, maggie, my dad. >> okay. >> do you remember calling paul a little detective? >> i don't know that i ever called him a little detective, but i think maggie did. i may have. i mean, he was very intuitive. i heard miriam call him a little detective. i know maggie used to call him that. >> did that have anything to do with the pills? it had something to do with it, paul was always that way, but that -- what led him to be called a little detective, certainly there were times when paul found pills. >> including just a month before the murders, is that correct? >> no, sir. >> do you recall 6/5/23 that was entered into evidence that was a text are from paul to you. >> i did. >> in which he said that maggie found pills your nor bag. >> right. >> you asked me about paul finding them, but it was maggie that found them. >> fair enough so it was maggie who found them? >> yes, sir. >> but paul was the one who reached out to you, correct? >> on that occasion, yes, sir. >> and what was the discussion after that? >> i can't remember exactly what it was, but it was about that i had eye surgery the -- i don't know what day it was. days before that. the day maggie found them, maggie drove me to the doctor to have my cataract removed, whatever they call that surgery, i can't remember, but i had a cataract taken out, outpatient. you go in for a couple of hours, and then you come out. and it was during covid, and so maggie wasn't allowed to come into the doctor's office, and so she sat in the car, and i had left pills in the computer bag and sitting out there bored i guess she started looking at my computer and found them in the computer bag, so she found those pills. >> so she obviously told paul and paul texted you about finding those pills. that's correct. >> in may of 2021. that's correct. >> and you've heard your sister-in-law testify that maggie called him the little detective about the pills. you heard that in this courtroom? >> i did hear that. >> so did they start to watch you like a hawk and get on you about your pill usage during the month of may? >> no. >> they did not? >> no. mr. waters, this battle that i had with addiction, it had been going on for years, years, so they had been watching me like a hawk for years before may. may was just one occurrence where i let them down. again. >> they'd been watching you like a hawk for years, is that correct? >> about my pill addiction, yes, sir. that is correct. >> that wasn't the only time that paul found pills or maggie found pills, is that correct? >> there were a number of times where mags found pills, pau-pau found pills, bus found pills. i mean, it was an ongoing -- it was just an ongoing battle for me. >> and after they found those pills in may, that being maggie and paul, were they trying to get you to self-detox? >> no, sir, not at that point in time. >> they just let it go? >> no, they didn't let it go. but at that point in time pau-pau and i had already had a discussion based on, i can't remember exactly when it was, but there had been a previous occasion a good while back where -- there had been a previous occasion where either maggie or paul had found pills, and paul had come to me and asked me, and i told him, you know, i was back on the pills. and. >> when was this occasion? >> we had had a long talk. as i said, i don't remember exactly when it was before that. paul and i had had a long talk, and we'd agreed -- i'd agreed and i detoxed so many times. i'd been to detox. i detoxed at home with maggie's help. i detoxed at home with doctor's help. i detoxed on my own, tried to. and it just -- just detoxing just didn't work. it just -- you couldn't -- you could detox, but you couldn't -- not you -- i couldn't. i couldn't stay off of them, and so i promised paul that as soon as -- as soon as we finished with his criminal case that i would go to rehab and -- and on this particular occasion paul knew that his mom worried about me so much with pills that on this particular occasion i think that pau-pau convinced maggie that i got those pills in anticipation of the eye surgery but that i never took them so that she would not worry that i was once again -- >> so you're talking about -- now you're pointing out about the time in may that paul talked about maggie -- or are you talking about a different time? >> i'm not claiming that. that's a fact that happened. >> we're hearing that now, correct? >> what you just said. >> you just asked me this. mr. waters you keep making issue about the first time you're hearing these things. when i got arrested and i went to jail, we began reaching out to you to talk to you about all of these things to try to tell you everything that i've done to give you all these details to help you all go through these financial things and up until the time that y'all charged me with murdering my wife and child, you would never give jim griffin a response to our invitations to sit down and meet with you. >> so you're telling me i never responded to jim griffin, is that what you're telling me today? >> are you saying you never before yesterday reached out to anyone in law enforcement and prosecution and told them the story about the kennels, are you telling me that? >> answer my question first, please, did you ever reach out to anyone in law enforcement or the prosecution and tell that story that you told this jury yesterday about the kennels before yesterday? >> did i ever reach out to law enforcement to say i want to tell you about the kennels? no, sir, i did not. >> fifth amendment line. >> pardon? >> this questioning about him volunteering information on these charges violates his fifth amendment rights, and we strongly object. any more we'll have to make a motion. >> he brought it up, your honor. >> objection's overruled. >> what i did was -- >> answer my question first. >> he did not bring -- he was talking about financial stuff -- >> sit down mr. dixon. >> yes or no question. before yesterday did you ever bring up what you told this jury about the kennels to anybody in the prosecution or anybody in law enforcement? >> no, i didn't have the opportunity to, mr. waters, because you would not respond to my invitations to reach out and tell you about all the things that i'd done wrong. and to talk about bringing this to a head, to talk about bringing this to closure. i understand how many people i hurt. i understand how angry my partners are and how hurt they are, and i understand how hurt these people that i stole money from are and i understand how hurt they are. one of the things i believe is getting past this may help them get some closure, and so since at least january i've been trying to sit down with y'all to talk to y'all, and never, never, ever got a response to the multiple requests. >> multiple requests? >> yes, sir, multiple requests. i would ask about this -- >> let's ask this, sir. >> sir. >> did mark ball ever hear your story to the jury about the kennels until yesterday? your buddy and law partner? >> i haven't spoken to mark baugh since i went to rehab. >> and these were the same law partners that you were listening to the night of. is that what you testified to this jury earlier? you testified to that earlier, did you not? >> i don't understand your question. >> didn't you testify earlier that you were listening to your law partners on the night of the incident? >> was i listening to them? >> yeah, you testified to that. it's a simple question, sir. >> i'm sure i was. when are you talking about? >> on june 8th in the early morning hours. you testified to this jury that you were listening to them, but you never told them the kennel story either, and they heard it for the first time yesterday as well, isn't that correct? >> yes, that's the first time they heard it. >> first time that ronny crosby ever heard that would have been yesterday. >> if he was listening that would have been the first time he heard it. >> first time johnny carper heard that was yesterday? >> yes. >> first time danny henderson who is representing you in the boat case ever heard that was yesterday? >> yes, yesterday is the first time that i have said that openly. but that's not what you were asking me, mr. waters, but you go ahead. >> first time your brother randy heard that was yesterday. >> if he was listening. and mr. water, just to be clear, i was begging for a meeting with y'all to brink this to a close to talk to you all about everything up until the time that y'all charged me with hurting maggie and paul. now, after that point in time, i stopped, obviously. >> you were begging for a meeting but you admit the information was never conveyed that you wanted to change your story after multiple interviews with law enforcement about what happened that night, including the most important fact of all, which is when the last time you supposedly saw your wife and son alive was. >> i don't know exactly what was conveyed or not because -- to you because i wasn't part of that. all i know is what i was trying to do was to sit down. i understood to bring all this to a close that y'all would want me to sit down and go through all of these financial things, all of these things that i'd done wrong and to try to bring that to a close, i was repeatedly trying to sit down with y'all. >> the reality is, mr. murdaugh, the reason why no one's ever heard that before is because you had to sit in this courtroom and hear your family and your friends one after the other come in and testify that you were on that kennel video so you, like you've done so many times over the course of your life had to back up and make a new story that kind of fit with the facts that can't be denied, isn't that true, sir? >> no, sir, that's not true. >> okay. you've done that over and over again over the years with all of this that we've been talking about. >> i've done what over and over again? >> the second that you're confronted with facts that you can't deny, you immediately come up with a new lie, isn't that correct? >> mr. waters. we've established i have lied many times, but i can't sit here and tell you, what are you talking about facts that i didn't deny. i would disagree with that proposition that you're putting out that that's what i did all the time, but in doing that, i admit, again, that i have lied to people that trusted me. >> so we can agree the prosecution and law enforcement and so many of your friends and family heard for the first time your story about the kennels yesterday after all these weeks of testimony. can we agree on that? >> that law enforcement, my partners, and my friends heard me say that for the first time, yes, i agree with that.