fallout stands after the bombshell. what does this mean for other witnesses? >> paul manafort had to conclude, watching the whole michael cohen saga, that trust and loyalty with trump run in one direction only. >> today new reaction on a former white house official whether manafort's actions equate to collusion. and in the carolinas, historic flooding is expected to get worse. the death toll is on the rise as the remnants of florence linger. the latest in live reports. hello, everyone. i'm chris jansing in new york for alex witt at the new york headquarters. it's 1:00 outeast. president trump is hailing the administration's response to the storm so far. we got a new tweet, the president saying, fema, first responders and law enforcement are working really hard on hurricane florence. as the storm begins to finally recede, they will kick into an even higher gear. very professional. let's go to nbc's kelly o'donnell at the white house, and kelly, tfema also respondin to the president's tweet. what are they saying? >> it's a positive response over president trump's tweets. that's been happening over the few days that hurricane florence has been a threat to everyone in its path as well as the first responders and those on the ground trying to help with the state and federal response. so brock who is running the show and dealing with his team members to deal with this, and the storms by their very nature have unpredictable qualities, brock long gets that about the fema team. here's what he said earlier today. >> one thing about president trump is that he is probably the one president that has had more support for what goes on back here, and i think he's defensive because he knows how hard these guys behind me workday day in day out for a very complicated result. the study was done differently, then the george washington study or that study, and the numbers are all over the place. >> when he's referring to numbers all over the place, that's a reference to what we've been talking about over recent days. one of the academic studies after the hurricane hit puerto rico sets the number of deaths at about 3,000, not just from the initial deaths from the storm, from accidents or injury related to the storm itself, but looking at broader conditions when there was not sufficient electricity or clean water or infrastructure attributing excess deaths, as they call it, to the storm itself. and, therefore, that's raised a lot of criticism about the federal response for hurricane maria in puerto rico. the president has lashed out about that study. has accused democrats of creating the study in order to make him look bad, and what long is saying is there have been different studies commissioned by different entities to look at the impact of that storm and others and their methodologies differ and some of their results differ. he said fema is not the one responsible for counting the loss of life. that's not in their area of expertise or their charge when it comes to these things, so he's trying to defend the president on one of the more controversial issues of the past week as well. chris? >> once again we have a conversation about something that should not be taking any attention away from what's happening with the folks, first of all, who are still recovering in puerto rico but are dealing with it in a very real way right now. thank you so much, kelly o'donnell, appreciate that. of course, the other big headline is the fallout over the paul manafort plea deal. president trump for the second time in as many days attacking the special counsel in a tweet earlier saying, the illegal mueller witch hunt continues in search of a crime. there was never collusion with russia, except by the clinton campaign, so the 17 angry democrats are looking at anything they can find. very unfair and bad for the country. also not allowed under the law. one of the president's former white house officials today downplaying the significance of the plea deal as the top democrat on the house intel committee said this is as clear a warning as mueller could send. >> i think that paul was brought in at the time to help with the convention and he did a good job with that. >> then he ran the campaign after the convention. >> he was campaign manager, you're right. i think kellyanne was cam ppaig manager and did a phenomenal job, too. it's hard to say he didn't have a role in the campaign. at the same time, it seems that all the allegations predate his involvement in the campaign. it's about his time as a lobbyist and representing foreign governments and tax evasion is a serious charge and being a lobbyist is a serious charge. but that does not relate to collusion with russia on the campaign. >> this sends a message to anyone in bob mueller's crosshairs right now. you better get to the special counsel and make your deal now. because anyone who gets indicted by bob mueller goes down. and the longer you wait to come clean, the worse deal you're going to get, the more time you're going to face. so i think it obviated the need for these trials which gives mueller time to focus on other things, it gives a key witness who has already seen what happens when you mess with bob mueller. he tried to tamper with witnesses, he got caught, he went to jail. he better come clean. >> let's bring in contributor to "time" magazine, and politics reporter for the "new york times." it's great to have both of you here. jane, let's start with you. what is the thinking? does this cooperation agreement equal bad news for the president, for his son, for his son-in-law, jared kushner, of course. they were in the trump tower meeting. or maybe all of the above? >> i think it's very worrisome for president trump and you had the president talk about this last week with his sense of flipping, right? they're flipping people closer and closer to him, and the idea of these kinds of investigations is always to flip somebody to get people higher up in the scale and to get them higher up in the scale, and the fact of the matter is we're getting close to the top of the ladder and there aren't many people to flip after this. so when you have manafort flipping, cohen, michael flynn, really the only people left here are donald trump jr., the president's son, and the president himself. and the way that mueller has worked is that he's really put the personal lives of these people, to some degree, in jeopardy. like if they really have to choose between their family or protecting the president from people like michael cohen who a year ago said i am laying down my life for the president is now saying, you know what, i have to protect my own family here because i have no choice. that makes an interesting sort of next step. the next person to flip or be under investigation is another person in the room in that trump tower meeting who was donald trump jr., is he going to be in the crosshairs next, and what happens when the president's own family is in the crosshairs with mueller? what sdoes the president do? does he protect them or protect himself? >> we know that paul manafort in what's known as a proffer where he lets them know exactly what he has that starts in whole process focused on him. what kind of conversations do you imagine are going on in that room? >> it's hard to even fathom. this is someone who worked at the highest levels of the trump campaign and is now, as jay said, sai -- jane says, is now in the crosshairs of the investigation. we try to deflect it by saying these are all allegations which occurred before he was in line with the trump campaign. that may be true. this is a president who said i hired the best people, and here we have another example of him hiring and linking his campaign with someone who was engaged and now has admitted to nefarious actions that amount to a conspiracy against the united states. what does that mean and what do we know going forward remains to be seen. this is someone who, as though russia whisperers, i heard some folks call them yesterday, and has had connections with our country and other eastern european countries for so long, the extent of what he knows and the extent of what he knows happened to the lead-up to that trump tower meeting, only bob mueller can find out, and that could spell problems for the president. >> for the president and maybe also for his party, jay. there are a lot of questions about how this plays into the midterms which are now less than two months away, which we've been saying, and you have the situation where the president brings it up over and over and over again, reminding people that he went out there and the people chanted for him, drain the swamp, and yet you have five people who were involved close to him as aides in his campaign who are now -- are going to jail, and there you see even beyond those who worked directly for the campaign. do you think that the republicans just wish he wouldn't talk about it as all? leave it be, don't keep bringing it up? >> absolutely, alex. i think we see this real dichotomy in this election where you have this economy, really low unemployment, and things are going well on the republican front and they hope to run on this economy, but yet they have to run essentially on the president's twitter campaign. and really, i think trump to some degree is his own worst enemy here. he can't just get out of the way of letting them run on the economy, he has to be the baby at every christening, the bride at every wedding and the corpse at every funeral and he has to put himself in the middle of everything. it's made him unpopular especially among women voters which worries republicans this fall because it means he has small coattails. he's not really helping out any of those candidates and the generics are winning by double digits. republicans are very worried they could lose both chambers of congress which would spell enormous problems for the president as well. >> and besides those numbers, you just have people who have been traditional democratic voters who went over to president trump who said they were not feeling like they were part of this economic recovery, who felt they were left behind. and you have this fascinating reporting how democrats in michigan are trying to focus on the rank and file union voters. what's their argument? what's the case they're making to them? >> it's really interesting. we were out in michigan trying to talk to these voters who are part of that stunning shift. some were surprised that these voters flipped over to president trump and a lot of that was based off of what they said was an economy that wasn't working for them. you have democrats now who are wanting to project that they have listened to those messages, and it's one of those big myths, the dichotomy of hearing the d.c. talk versus being out there. d.c. always says democrats are running on anti-trump, but when you go out to these places, they never mention the president first. they're often talking about those local issues. the democratic nominee talks about infrastructure first and investing in new union jobs coming back. congressional candidates, many of whom are women have come to those union halls to say, we have heard your message from 2016 and we're trying to get an economy that works for everyone, whether that is stagnant wages, or whether that's just increased high-paying jobs. they are trying to say they have listened to the messages. so it's one of those things that can be kind of a head shaker because you have both a president who campaigns on a kind of populist message sometimes but has delivered a tax cut that most largely benefits the upper class and democrats are trying to seize on that. >> i was just in montana. they're talking about trade. they were talking about -- congress was talking about 5g and there are large parts of america that have no self-coverage at all. you're absolutely right about that. it's fascinating stuff. thank you both for being here this morning. hurricane florence downgraded but flooding remains a concern in over 50 towns and cities. you have record rainfall in north carolina, up to 30 inches of rain in spots. officials are warning drivers to stay off the roads because parts of i-40 and i-95 are now cut off by those floodwaters. i want to show you new video of flooding in the city of charlotte. it got just under 5 inchds es o rain but forecasters say that can go up to 15 inches and more than 3500 medical personnel are involved in rescue ifrttself. the death toll in north carolina has gone up to 15. first in fayetteville where a mandatory evacuation order is in effect. kerry, when we were with you last hour, i know you were watching those waters rise. how are things looking now? >> reporter: i thought what we would do is set up an experiment, so we're not going to move the camera because we've been rolling since i last talked to you. i'm going to step out of the way and we'll adjust the focus here. what we've done is put the camera here on this bridge to watch the water rise, and we're actually at a wide portion of the river just to see how quickly it comes up. so when we first set up about 38, 42 minutes ago, we didn't really have much water really coming on the bridge. the lower right-hand corner there, you can see it's just now beginning to come over. this will be sort of a calculation of how quickly the water is rising. again, we're at a wide portion here. i want to take you up above with a drone right now. as you take a look at the drone pictures of fayetteville, you can see portions of downtown fayetteville are flooded. that is why 2800 people have been told -- or 2800 residents -- those are homes -- have been told they have to evacuate. there will be quite a number more. right here in the county they've opened up seven shelters and there's one private shelter that's open. two of those shelters will accept pets. people have gotten out by and large. police going since early this morning knocking on doors with the fire department on the bu bullhorns telling people, as you see some of the video of the flooding here, you get an understanding of why they moved so quickly. fortunately this happened in the daylight hours and it would be much more difficult to happen at night. chris, you asked me earlier about some of the elderly people and some of the people who just didn't have the ability to get out. i can tell you now they have some great assistance here. cumberland county is doing a wonderful job, but thankfully they have support from a swift water rescue team that's helping evacuate people from los angeles as well as from nebraska, and in both cases they're not just here, they've already been deployed. they've gone out and helped people get into the areas and bring some people to safety. again, the crisis is sort of happening as we speak. we calculate it to be about 35 feet above flood stage. it's expected to go to a record, an incredible 62 feet. clearly where i am will be well under water and we've done a little bit of a calculation that the flow of the water here is going at somewhere around 6 to 8 miles per hour. so remember, in that sort of water, in 3 inches it can knock you down. you don't want to go out into the flow of the water. >> kerry sanders, stay safe out there. we will be checking back with you through the day. thank you very much for that. incredible footage both on the ground and in the air. i want to go to matt in lumberton, north carolina. what's going on where you are, matt? >> chris, as you can see, the rain has really picked up. it's going on and off. as you can see, it's not a whole lot of wind. it's not like the storm conditions we've had in the past. i am standing in about ankle deep water right here, and that's overflow from the lumber river, which is on the other side of i-95. you can see i-95 has been shut down for its entire length. that's not such a big problem right now because all of this has been evacuated. but come tomorrow, monday, it's going to be hard to get this place back to normal. the real concern here in lumberton is that the lumber river levy will breach and the water will go over and flood this town even more than it is now. that's exactly what happened in 2016 after hurricane matthew. it was a disaster here. several people were killed. residents were telling me that then the water level rose from where it is now to almost chest level. and that was deadly. and it was very hard to recover, because remember, chris, this is one of the poorest regions in america. this is actually one of the poorest towns in north carolina. and a lot of people here just -- really, they can't take another disaster like hurricane matthew from 2016. chris? >> the rain really coming down where you are. we'll be checking in with you as well. thank you so much, matt bradley, in lumberton for us. up next where the russia probe might be heading after paul manafort's plea deal. i'll be talking about house member demi hepp in just a moment. your hair is so soft! did you use head and shoulders two in one? i did mom. wanna try it? yes. it intensely moisturizes your hair and scalp and keeps you flake free. manolo? look at my soft hair. i should be in the shot now too. try head and shoulders two in one. p3 it's meat, cheese and nuts. i keep my protein interesting. oh yea, me too. i have cheese and uh these herbs. p3 snacks. the more interesting way to get your protein. i think the trump team is terrified of what manafort has to say. >> that's how you view it, fear of manafort. >> absolutely. they may think they know what manafort has to say because he was part of that joint defense agreement, but they have to know he may not have told them the full truth. so they're terrified of what he has to say. i'm stunned that we are where we are, that manafort is cooperating. >> the bombshell announcement that paul manafort is cooperating with special counsel robert mueller. joining me now, danny hepp. good to see you. >> thank you, chris. >> you were on the committee with paul manafort. what do you think they're asking him right now? >> it's a very long list, chris. the first and obvious thing is to get behind the conversation of what that june 26 meeting was really like. the truth of the matter is there was a considerable amount of information that hasn't been made available to us yet nor to the public but that paul manafort is capable of providing. indeed i suspect he's already provided at least some of it to the special counsel because the truth of the matter is they would not have struck the deal had he already not kept his hand and told bob mueller that what he has may be of value to him. >> i want to tell you what the president's lawyer told the business insider. he said, paul manafort is not going to talk to robert mueller about trump or the trump campaign. his cooperation deal does not include an agreement to do that, he's only cooperating on matters related to the two indictments against him and the others named in those indictments. what do you say to that? >> rudy giuliani is irrelevant with respect to all the other matters in this investigation. rudy giuliani was hired to be a spinmaster to basically engage in public relations activity, not to engage in any serious lawyering whatsoever. i take nothing he says publicly of any value whatsoever as it bears on the investigation, period, full stop. >> i want to play one more clip. >> whether this is the most improbable strain of unlikely coincidences or whether this was an active conspiracy. the bottom line is manafort knows. will manafort cooperate? will he tell mueller all he knows or will he tell mueller only what he thinks mueller already knows? the reality is i think only he can tell us. >> i think a lot of the speculation is exactly what obviously mueller will say, how deep he will go, how broad he will go. and it also speaks to maybe what kind of witness he will be where gates was not exactly stellar for prosecutors. what do you think is the end game here for manafort himself? >> he's going to jail skpeand h going to jail for quite some time, in fact. i'm not sure i agree with your predicate about rick gates. the fact of the matter is manafort was convicted of eight felonies and is already going to jail based in part on evidence that was provided that was corroborated. i don't think we'll find out much in the next 60 days until the midterms about what manafort has already shared or will share, but if i read the trajectory of bob mueller's investigation and the professionalism with which he's undertaken it to get to this point with this many fellow indictments and convictions, i think as jay said earlier in the program, chris, the people that ought to be really worried next are donald trump jr. and jared kushner. i think those are the people as exposed as anybody because they were in that june 26 meeting. i will reiterate what i've said in this meeting any number of times, chris. the walls are closing in on the president. and here's the simple fact of the matter. it's time for him to resign the presidency. if he loves his country, if he loves his family, if he wants to put them first, he should resign now and spare the country and his family what we are continuing to go through. >> and yet i think we all can agree that that is not going to happen. so given that, and assuming that if nothing else this brings robert mueller yet another step closer to some conclusion of this, there is a lot of talk about what happens next. we talked about it in the last hour. thafrz been an argument made by some prosecutors that maybe the watergate report should be released as sort of a way going forward should there be a report that then goes to congress that gives them an idea of what we'll see. what do you think happened? what does robert mueller do once he wrapped up this investigation? >> robert mueller will continue to do what he has done from day one of his work here, and that is pursue it with the utmost professionalism and adhere encef the rules and regulations and policies. it is not required to be made public, that's a deal made with rod rosenstein, so what happens next is with deputy attorney rod rosenstein. i do not share your perspective that we're getting anywhere near to wrapping this up, because there are years of activity on behalf of the trump organization that may very well play into the current investigation. and it is a painstakingly slow and difficult forensics exercise and undertaking to reconstruct all of that. i'm not convinced that on november 7, 8 or 9 we're going to get the final report whatsoever, chris. >> i wasn't meaning to imply that, just that this is another sort of step forward for robert mueller and obviously somebody who is in a critical position for five months to know what was going on in the middle of the campaign, in spite of what rudy giuliani may have said. ken starr was also on television this morning. he is selling a book. but he was asked about impeachment and i want to play for you what he said about the possibility of impeachment. >> do you think president trump will face impeachment? >> i hope not, because one of the lessons in the book is impeachment is hell. the country should not be taken through that unless there is a growing natural consensus that impeachment is proper, it's doomed to fail and it's just the wrong way to go. >> there's also an argument to be made, and of course we don't know what's going to happen in the election, but even if democrats manage to take control of the senate, the chances of the president being removed from office, i think, by most accounts are very, very, very small. so what's your take on impeachment, assuming that what you think should happen, which is that the president step down, isn't going to happen? >> so i think the irony that we all ought to continue to focus on is investigation and not impeachment. while impeachment is a small option that are in the most part dependent on the conclusion of what the investigations are. i agree with ken starr that impeachment is hell. it's in part why i think the president should resign. and frankly, if this continues in the direction it is, i don't know if i agree with you, chris, i think the president may in fact get to a point where he considers that. >> well, that is a bold statement and we would love to continue to talk about that, but for now, congressman denny heck, pleasure to have you on the program. appreciate it. >> thank you, chris. coming up, the next key figure robert mueller might be aiming for as the russia probe moves closer to the white house. you wouldn't accept an incomplete job from any one else. why accept it from your allergy pills? 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(laughing) don't settle for your first draft. or your 10th draft. ♪ ♪ you get to create the room where it happens. ♪ ♪ just don't think you have to do it alone. ♪ ♪ the powerful backing of american express. don't live life without it. we got new insight today into why paul manafort may signal that robert mueller is near the end of his investigation. on friday manafort pleaded guilty and agreed to cooperate with the special counsel's investigation, a move the president's lawyer, rudy giuliani, has called irrelevant to his client. but earlier today, former obama ethics chief eisen disagreed, calling a deal disaster for the president. >> you only get a deal from up the chain. who is up the chain from paul manafort who was the chair of the campaign? roger stone, the campaign itself, and perhaps ultimately the president. i think there is a substantial possibility that this evidence that manafort is offering will.i.wil will implicate someone up the chain. i believe not the end for donald trump, but the beginning of the end for donald trump. he is not going to survive manafort's testimony. >> joining us now, barbara mcquaid. good to see you, barbara. do you agree with eisen? is this the beginning of the end for the president? >> i don't know how to frame it in terms of the beginning of the end, but no doubt paul manafort has information of value, because robert mueller gave him something in exchange for that information. there is an old phrase that prosecutors use like don't buy a pi pig in a poke, don't buy livestock without examining it first. the same is true for a proffer. you get that proffer first to make sure it has value before you give them a break. no doubt paul manafort has told him at least the topics he can talk about and prosecutors don't typically give things away unless they're looking up the chain of investigation. so i agree that it's likely he has information on people higher in the organization, perhaps donald trump jr., perhaps jared kushner, roger stone, maybe the president himself, but no doubt he has information that manafort's information has value. >> has it occurred to you the breadth of what manafort has agreed to do? we heard one of the prosecutors telling the judge that manafort will cooperate in any and all matters in which the government deems the cooperation relevant. >> that's actually a typical agreement. you agree to come clean about anything and everything. you can't say, whoa, whoa, that's not something i agreed to talk about, because you never know the things that might become relevant at some point. no doubt in the coming weeks they'll sit down with him and confront him with e-mail messages, documents, the testimony of other witnesses to try to probe the depth of his knowledge on all of these things that they're looking at. the other significant thing, i think, to keep in mind is that robert mueller has spun off to other u.s. attorneys' offices like michael cohen, like sam patton who was involved in russian interference with the inaugural committee, yet he has kept the paul manafort case. that's because i think he believes there is information that's directly relevant to the heart of this case which is coordination between russia and the trump campaign. >> i'm curious what you think about what kind of witness paul manafort would be. i was just having this discussion with the congressman, but this is somebody i think prosecutors did a pretty good job of making look bad, at least in terms of how he spends his money, and even though the judge said it's no crime to be rich, he didn't exactly come off as a sympathetic guy or a trustworthy person. what kind of witness do you think paul manafort will make? >> i think there will be a lot of parallels to what we saw with richard gates at his own trial with paul manafort. he still had some value to add because he was there and saw what happened. when you have a witness like paul manafort, what a prosecutor will do is make sure that person isn't standing alone. you don't have to believe everything he has to say because you will corroborate it with other evidence, documents, e-mails, text messages and the testimony of other witnesses. so you don't have to like him, you don't even have to believe him, you just have to let him fill in the gaps with some things that have happened. the other thing he could have is even if he's too toxic to testify, he could still provide leads and information that could be useful to investigators as they continue forward in the investigation. >> finally, i want to ask your take on this latest tweet. kelly o'donnell and i earlier were trying to figure out exactly what he meant by it. maybe you have an idea. he once again called the investigation a witch hunt and says, quote, there was never collusion with russia except by the clinton campaign. very unfair and bad for the country. also not allowed under the law. what does that mean? >> i don't know what that means. paul manafort has pleaded guilty. everything that's been done is done and allowed under the law. i don't know what they're talking about specifically with regard to hillary clinton. so i just think it's, again, the best defense is a goode offense and we see that so often with president trump where instead of denying anything, he accuses others of misconduct, points the finger elsewhere and tries to push the spotlight somewhere else. >> good to have you on the show. thank you. >> thanks, chris. how the president used his voice in tweeting about hurricane florence. it's time to get out of line with upmc. at upmc, living-donor transplants put you first. so you don't die waiting. upmc does more living-donor liver transplants than any other center in the nation. find out more and get out of line today. essential for the cactus, but maybe not for people with rheumatoid arthritis. because there are options. like an "unjection™". xeljanz xr. a once-daily pill for adults with moderate to severe ra for whom methotrexate did not work well enough. xeljanz xr can reduce pain, swelling and further joint damage, even without methotrexate. xeljanz xr can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections, lymphoma and other cancers have happened. don't start xeljanz xr if you have an infection. tears in the stomach or intestines, low blood cell counts and higher liver tests and cholesterol levels have happened. your doctor should perform blood tests before you start and while taking xeljanz xr, and monitor certain liver tests. tell you doctor if you were in a region where fungal infections are common and if you have had tb, hepatitis b or c, or are prone to infections. needles. fine for some things. but for you, one pill a day may provide symptom relief. ask your doctor about xeljanz xr. an "unjection™". ask your doctor about xeljanz xr. the first thing that was important for me to change was the culture of the company. and i think that had to shift to responsible growth. second thing i wanted to change was the leadership of the company. and the third was for us to start listening. listening to our riders. listening to our driver partners. i think listening is ultimately going to make us a better company. we are back with breaking news at this hour. the "washington post" now reporting the name of the woman who wrote that confidential letter making sexual assault allegations against supreme court nominee brett kavanaugh. she has chosen to come forward and reveal her identity. the "washington post" writing that she is a professor at palo alto university. her name is christine blazey ford. she's decided, quote, if her story is going to be told, she wants to be the one to tell it. i want to bring in former nevada state chairwoman and independent journalist, jonathan altar, columnist of "the daily beast" and former prosecutor barbara mcquaid is still with us. i know you're all just getting a copy of this article. it's pretty long, pretty extensive, but i want to point out a couple of things so folks know what we're dealing with here. people already know the allegations that were purported. she said in the summer in the early '80s, she describes them both as stumbling drunk and he corralled her into a bedroom at a gathering of teenagers in a house in montgomery county, that she was groped, that they were attacking her, and now she's a researcher in california now. she said, quote, i thought he might inadvertently kill me. he was trying to attack me and remove my clothing. she said she was able to escape when kavanaugh's friend and classmate at a georgetown preparatory school jumped on top of them and all three of them went tumbling and she ran from the room. barbara mcquaid, let me get your reaction to this. >> i'm glad to see her stepping guard because i think it's easy to dismiss it if it's an anonymous allegation. now we know who it is. it sounds like a person of credibility and she can be so-called cross-examined in public about her allegations. and i think it's a serious allegation that deserves airing. i don't know if it means he's unqualified, but i've heard people say it happened so long ago, it can't be relevant. if it was a murder, would it be relevant? i think it would. it should be fully discussed in a public square and in this day and age of the metoo movement, i think it's a serious allegation. >> she never told anybody much about this until 2012, but then she was in couples therapy with her husband. and the therapist notes portions of which were provided by her and reviewed by the "washington post," do not mention kavanaugh's name but says she reported that she was attacked by students from an elite boys' school who went on to become highly respected and high-ranking members of society in washington. did this change the equation at all about kavanaugh's nomination? >> well, it could. we don't know yet. and a lot of it depends on the details. right now it's a classic he said/she said. she did not tell anybody else in realtime about this incident which will weaken her account, but not discredit it. so at this point, both kavanaugh and the other boy in attendance, a fellow named mark judge, who has written for conservative publications, have flatly denied this. but one of the things in this "washington post" story is that mike judge wrote a book about his alcoholism, and he said he suffered alcoholic blackouts. so it's not clear that his denial will carry a huge amount of weight. there were two other people at that small party, that gathering that night in suburban maryland who have not been heard from yet. you can expect that we will in the coming days. this has all the hallmarks, chris, of being a feeding frenzy that we're about to experience. >> do you think, amy, that this changes the equation at all? i want to point out that the "washington post" looks for additional comments from judge kavanaugh who denies this didn't happen then or ever but did not provide any additional comment. and we should also say, because this will definitely play into the conversation, she is a registered democrat. she's made small contributions to political organizations and she did contact her democratic congresswoman around the same time in late july that apparently she sent a note about this to the "washington post." what's your take on this, amy? >> well, if these allegations -- we find them to be true, it will be extremely, extremely devastating and very disappointing. when i first glanced at this article, my heart sank because this is something that needs to be taken seriously, even though they are allegations. this is something we can't discredit, can't just put to the wayside despite what party affiliation this woman may be affiliated with. people may say why now, why she coming out? it seems politically motivated. why don't people come out within the first initial time that it happened or within the first couple years, but obviously if this is true and she's gone to therapy for it and she's taken her husband along with her, this is something these been traumatized over and found to be true, then this is not good. there are many women who never feel comfortable with coming out with their accuser's name and just simply want to heal personally and move forward with their lives. so, you know, why now? that's the question that i think many people will have, but i seriously hope that this did not happen. and the fact that this book pointed out that he may have suffered from alcoholism blackouts, that's a big problem, too, because maybe if it did happen, maybe he didn't remember it taking place. >> you also have, obviously, the parallels and the conversations that have already been had about anita hill and the clarence thomas hearings and she said that she hopes this accuser gets a fair and neutral hearing. i think, in the middle of the metoo movement. that doesn't mean what this woman is doing isn't incredibly brave because we know how risky it is to come forward with something like this. what do you see happening as a result of her coming forward and saying this is who i am? i wanted to tell my own story. >> i think it's very significant that she's coming out. as your earlier guest mentioned, the anonymity is something that was used against her. that's important. i've done reporting in this metoo era with other people who were survivors. being able to tell your own story is incredibly powerful for these survivors. there's so many questions that come up. >> in fact, one of the things that is reported in this article is the reason she hesitated to come forward is she was concerned about what this would mean for her family. she hired a washington lawyer who is known for her work on these sexual harassment issues and on katz's advice, she took a polygraph test. she said you know your credibility will come under attack. the washington post has gotten a copy of the results of that polygr polygraph test to conclude she was been truthful. how does the fact she did take a polygraph play into this. >> it's not known how reliable they are. the fbi uses them all the time. t there is some value especially in the court of public opinion. it's time to slow down and look at the process here. brett kavanaugh's nomination has been being pushed through at a very fast pace. it's time to slow down and look at and fully vet this accusation. it's not uncommon for women not to come forward when it happens because of all the reasons you've heard. people feel ashamed. they don't want to relive this experience, a number of reasons. we know that to be true. i think the public has become more educated about that issue. i don't think it should reflect on her credibility. she also said she has a duty to come forward. she has concerns about this person's suitability to serve on the highest court. let's hear what he has to say about it. >> let's talk about the timing. one of the things she said about concern about what this would mean for her family is as she was considering whether or not to go public, would this make any difference and the quote here, a lot of people can understand. she said why suffer through the annihilation if it's not going to matter. will it matter? how much pressure, if any, do you think this puts on republicans now who are ready to start voting later this week? >> i think it puts a lot of pressure on them. the jury, so to speak, will be the american people. that's assuming she does testify in front of the committee. if she decides she does not want to testify that would make it less likely that it would affect this nomination. if she agree s to testify then we're back in a story that i covered of the anita hill, clarence thomas hearings which took place in a very different context in terms of our consciousness. of sexual harassment and in this case potential sexual assault. i think it's important to understand that the charge is significantly more serious than the charge that anita hill levelled against clarence thomas when he was a nominee for the supreme court. there it was more along the l e lines of sexual harassment. this is more along the lines of sexual assault if it's true. there's no question this process will now slow down. republicans will come under intense pressure from the people in their states to give this woman a proper hearing for her allegations. >> amy, we've only got about 45 seconds left but i want to hear from the republican side on this. what is your take? are we going to hear any republicans come out and say maybe we need slow this down? >> i would hope so. this is something you can't mine mi min minimize. this is human being who was possibly sexually assaulted like the gentleman just said. does it mean that judge kavanaugh is not qualified? absolutely not. this is something that is very serious and needs to definitely be looked into. >> i want to read one last quote. this is from her husband who was interviewed by the washington post about whether or not someone's high school behavior should have a bearing in a case like this. i think you look to judges to be the arbitors of right and wrong. if they don't have a moral code of their own to determine right from wrong then that's a problem. the article posted on the washington post. thank you. we really appreciate it. at the top of the hour, the writer who spoke to the cavanaugh accuser will join david. stay with us. -computer, order pizza. -of course, daniel. -fridge, weather. -clear skies and 75. -trash can, turn on the tv. -my pleasure. -ice dispenser, find me a dog sitter. -okay. -and make ice. -pizza delivered. -what's happened to my son? 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