fans are hoping for another surprises, like taylor's version album releases and after last night a talk of whether travis kelce will pop up on stage again. >> that is all well and good. but more ian rad nick for me. thank you for letting us end on that happy note. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪ howdy friends. aloha and namaste. it is 4:00 p.m. in new york city. i'm john heilemann in for nicolle wallace. we're t minus 72 hours and change away from the spectacle of sitting american presidents debating a former american president, the latter of whom just to spice things up, also happened to be a 43 four time criminal, a scoff law, with 34 scarlet f's across his wrap sheet. if donald trump gets his way, the first and maybe only presidential debate of 2024 this thursday in atlanta will be less lincoln douglas or even krend nixon than randy savage versus ricky the dragon steamboat. those are wrestlers for the record. the chain of events that led president biden to face off against a felon ran through the mush had been case brought against donald trump by alvin bragg. who has received a litany of heinous threats. threats that the manhattan d.a. office say are connected to trump's dangerous rhetoric. yet where he's facing grave legal peril, the wheels of justice appear to be grinding and spinning very slowly and possibly in reverse, where judge ilene cannon is at this moment hearing arguments in the classified documents case including over the question of whether to modify the bond conditions of trump's release and especially request from jack smith, quote, for a gag order limiting the former president's rhetoric about fbi agents involved in the case. that is a reference to when back in may trump, quote, twisted the meaning of boilerplate instructions to fbi agents about limits on their use of lethal force and accused the use of deadly force during the mar-a-lago search or as trump put it in a fundraising email, president biden was lock and loaded ready to take me out. now, that, that is precisely the kind of rhetoric and distortion that trump is known for and that why there is a request for a gag order in a withering filing ahead of today's hearing. quote, in late may, 2024, donald trump made a series of false public statements about the law enforcement professionals who conducted the court authorized search at mar-a-lago telling his audience that the fbi was out to kill him and his family. the quote goes on. trump knew that this was false and he intended that his comments would inflame his listeners. indeed, that was the whole purpose. there is no question that his statements were intentionally false and designed to inflame and anger his audience and that he knew that his statements would do so. every court to have examined the issue has recognized the threat caused by the long-standing and well-documented dynamic between trump's comments and the predictable response from some of his supporters. it continues, here, common human experience leaves no question of the imminently foreseeable harm posed by trump's knowingly false and inflammatory accusation of an fbi plot to murder him and his family. three of those words bear repeating. imminently foreseeable harm. that is just posed by trump's knowingly false inflammatory accusations and that is where we start this hour with former top officials with the department of justice and legal analysts, andrew weissmann, plus u.s. senator and co-host of how to win 2024, podcast -- claire mccaskle and david jolly. and we will join us from the courtroom as soon as she's able. andrew weissmann, i start with you as we all do, a platter of common courtesy and deference to your genius. what is going on in florida down there today. >> one of the things that people should know is the way that judge cannon runs her courtroom and in contrast to the judge merchan courtroom is that there are no laptops, there is no telephones, nothing that you could use to communicate. so that is why it is slower than when we had, you know, the ability to get immediate tweets and information from judge merchan's courtroom from the insiders who were there. so, we know that both on friday and this morning she heard an issue about the constitutionality of the appointment of the special council. that is an issue that has been decided by every court that has addressed it against the people challenging the appointment of special counsel, whether republicans or democrats. and then this afternoon is the very, very belated oral argument that the judge scheduled on, john, what you confirmed as the changing of the bail conditions to impose additional restrictions on what the former president can say. and that is when, also, when you think about how it is been addressed in d.c. and in new york, we have had a situation where the former president has needed to be under a gag order because of these, as you put it, his false statements that pose imminent harm to people either who are witnesses, jurors, court staff, or prosecution staff. so we'll see what judge cannon does. one thing i'm keeping my eye out for if she doesn't rule for the government here, i could easily saying this going up to the court of appeals to get reversed for a third time. >> andrew, i follow you relentlessly on twitter and i saw a tweet of yours that talk about the state of affairs in cannon's courtroom and you compared it to judge merchan. he ran a tight ship, right? well done. >> absolutely. first rate judge. >> first rate judge who ran a first rate courtroom. cannon not so much. here is the tweet. a tweet where you likened cannon's courtroom to being so backed up in this case, it is like planes over la guardia on a holiday. i will say it is a very new york thing to -- that shows your new york roots. for people in the midwest would say backed up like planes over o'hare. so it is the same. as you talk about ilene cannon, is the inescapable question, politically biased, bozo, or both? >> boy, it is like a game show where do you want behind the curtain or in the box. so, i actually think it is both. there is no question she's inexperienced. and she does not have the tools to handle a case that is this complicated. this is clear. there is -- everyone has seen that. we also do have the fact that the 11th circuit, a conservative circuit that she is in, reversed her not once, but twice. and those were conservative judges who just thought she was absolutely bonkers in terms of her rulings. and of course both times that she was overturned her rulings were for trump. it is not like she's inexperienced and sometimes she gets it right for trump and sometimes she gets it right or wrong for the government. they are always siding with donald trump and it is very, very hard at this point, to see her as being anything other than partisan. let me just give you one reason that i and other people are particularly perturbed about the timing of her scheduling this argument on the gag order. the government raised this issue almost a month ago with her saying that there is a real concern about danger to law enforcement from these false statements. and she initially rejected the filing. she said it needs to be refiled because you didn't -- yes, you can confer with the other side but i don't think you conferred enough. so she actually bounced the filing and said you need to confer enough. that was meaningless. because the other side didn't agree to it. they were never going to agree to it. they said they didn't agree to it. so that delayed it. and then she put it on a slow trajectory where we are finally here today having this heard. you could imagine, there -- the allegations are that law enforcement is being harmed here. there is a grave risk of harm. even if she thought ultimately she was going to rule against the government, you would want to hear that as soon as human by possible. it just shows such incredible cavalier attitudes about safety and those -- that cavalier attitude and that safety is what got her reversed twice in the 11th circuit where they said she was showing cavalier attitudes toward the national security of the united states. so, again, i think it is worth really keeping an eye on this. because if she did not rule for the government, this is one where it could easily go up on appeal. >> claire, andrew is perturbed. out in the show-me state, do you get perturbed or do you have a different word for that. >> well gobsmacked. i think the lawyers that are watching this and particularly the other federal judges that are watching this, are all like, what in the world. this woman has a serious gase of robe-itis and it is a disease that inflicted a federal judge once they get the lifetime appointment. they forget they are accountable to anyone. and even not accountable to the people who appear in front of them, the lawyers who appear in front of them. i'll give you an example how nuts this is. people file a friend of the court brief many times on various issues. typically they are only looked at and potentially maybe argued at the appellate level. this woman on an issue that has been litigated over and over again, about the constitutionality of a special counsel, she's letting people who filed briefs come in and argue in front of her. like she's a supreme court judge or something. it is just not -- it is just beyond weird. i mean, no question, it looks like she's in the tank. it may turn out that she's not. but the appearance of impropriety here not just with her timing and failure to act but the rulings she's made and as andrew said when you get reversed twice by a conservative appellate court, you start paying attention because no judge, no judge likes being reversed. even one who doesn't know what she's doing. >> david jolly, i come to you as the -- i believe the soul floridian, or at least florida resident on this panel and i won't make you try to defend all of the things going on in your state including in this courtroom. but i will read to you from the "wall street journal" and ask what you think about there. these days of hearings, hearing palooza. and here is a quote that i found gobsmacked was claire's word. a hearing on friday. judge cannon took the unusual step aof allowing a texas law professor and two other lawyers unaffiliated with the case to argue on whether the special counsel jack smith was unlawfully appointed. she cut off the law professor as he quoted a line from the spiderman comics and later nudged him to finish his argument. i do want to let you wrap up, she said. so she is basically letting the clowns into the courtroom and then shocked that they're wearing -- have bozo noses and fred winks. what say you about the state of the courtroom in your state. >> i think the greatest gift for ilene cannon is there is no cameras in the courtroom. it is clear to a lay person. she's unqualified for this case. maybe they are credentials prepared for her the bench but she's absolutely unqualified for this case. so how does she cover that. it seems she's saying well then i'm going to be exceedingly thorough. i'm going to take my time. i'm go toss listen to everybody. always politically knowing that that favors donald trump's fortunes if in the end he indeed is elected president. i think that the lightning bolt last week that came out said everything. that the senior judge, the chief judge suggested that she recuse herself and let a more experienced judge take the case and yet she went ahead and did it. i think another lawyering sign is in the jack smith filing you just read from, where it talks about the imminent threat, the crutch of his case is -- his argument relies not on law but he said on common human experience tells us that donald trump's rhetoric is in sighting violence. it is saying don't overthink or overjudge this, common sense would tell you there. and if she's paying attention to anything outside of her courtroom, she might realize that the common sense of america is looking at her saying what are you doing because it is obvious that you're unprepared for this moment. >> andrew, ty cobb, the lawyer not the baseball player to worked for donald trump and criticized him and has the most skplent excellent mustache known to man made an argument i would like to hear. let's play that. >> the worst thing that could happen to her is she could rule for judge on this and that would go to the 11th circuit and this petty partisan pre-madonna will be removed. >> he's mustache and beard of ty cobb now. what do you make of that notion, cannon is bending over backwards to favor trump could end up backfiring on her? >> i totally agree. ty cobb is an excellent lawyer. leave aside the way he dresses and his illiteration. his point here is absolutely right. this is an issue that is serious. you go into law enforcement, you are at the department of justice to take seriously threats to civilians, threats to law enforcement. if judge cannon knew what she was doing, she would put it to the trump team to say, isn't it a fact that what you said is false? and make them really defend on the issue of his why there is a knowing and imminent harm here. if she rules for trump and it is the kind of issue that the reason that you are in law enforcement is to protect people. the idea this would not be taken up to the 11th circuit seems really remote to me. i put myself in what would i do in that situation. you would do everything you can to protect people in law enforcement the way that you try to protect witnesses and jurors and the court staff. and this is a kind of thing that doesn't take a conservative or a liberal judge, it is sort of a bipartisan issue on the 11th circuit that this is kind of thing that will really show her incompetence both in terms of the substance or ruling and, as i mentioned, the timing of it. that she waited so long to hear this matter. >> andrew weissmann, i detect a certain kind of adisapproval for ty cobb's facial hair. you may have a problem with it but i do not. thank you for spending this time with us. the florida hearing is still ongoing. when we get any kind of reading, we'll bring that to you. in the meantime, the marquee political event of the 2024 presidential cycle is just days away. more than likely one night only spectacle given that one candidate has an incredible penchant for breaking the rules. it is a debate with huge implications for both candidates on the stage, no audience and new rules. we'll look at how this match-up will be different from what you remember in 2020 and god help us, it has to be better than that. and later in the show, it is two years since the decision to over turn the right to an abortion in this country. it was an earthquake of a decision. perhaps the most political consequential decision of our lye time and the aftershocks are still being felt today. how democrats an the biden white house plan to make women's issues an the courts a reason to show up in november. all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after this so, please, please, even though it is me here and not nicolle, don't go anywhere. olle, don't go anywhere i got the power of 3. i lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost some weight. in 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(vo) new and existing customers get iphone 15 on us when they trade in any iphone. verizon liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with all the money i saved i thought i'd buy stilts. being so tall definitely has its advantages. oh whoa. here you go, kiddo. thanks. hi honey ready to go? yup. there it is, there it is... ahhh...here we go. i guess it also has some disadvantages. yes it does. only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty, liberty.♪ we are now just days away from what this poin in the presidential campaign is the most highly anticipated event of the 2024 cycle. president joe biden and former president donald trump set to face off in the first and earliest ever presidential debut on thursday in atlanta at cnn. the two are taking wildly, really wildly different approaches to their preparations. but president biden spending the days in atlanta at camp david with all ever his senior aides rehearsing and including his attorney bob bower playing the part again, of donald trump. he did that back in 2020. and according to reporting in "the new york times" today, quote, biden aides view the debate as starting bell for the general election and an event that will provide a high profile opportunity to define the terrain of the contest. meanwhile, the disgraced now 34 time criminally convicted ex president is not taking part in any known formal debate practice, preparations, mock debate, none of that. in stead, he's chosen to hit the campaign trail where he's been making a number of, you know, like those trump statements. unhinged, out there and hard to follow. but as biden campaign co-chair mitch landrieu reminds us, trump needed to do something about taking the stage on thursday. >> the fact of the matter is the sky is blue sometimes and donald trump is a convicted felon and the american people have to sit in that for a second. the person who wants to be president has to sit with his probation officer before he goes to the debate. >> it is a good point. joining us at the table, nbc news correspondent, the one and only vaughn hillyard. he's here with me at this table. i couldn't be happier. claire and david are back but they are not here. vaughn, what do you know about -- i love debate prep. one of my favorite things. i like to know about the mocks and the prep and all of stuff. what do you got? >> well how about this. you just outlined what joe biden's looks like. and to our understanding, what the came is telling us, is that donald trump's looks very different. he's doing no mock debate. that he has nobody standing in as joe biden. of course four years ago he had his one time ally chris christie doing that and this is publicly what they are saying and they're building up that donald trump, the presumptive republican nominee, someone that doesn't need to do that and go through a rehearsal and that is a campaign adviser because he's out there every day on the campaign trailer talking with advisers or right-wing media and that he does not need to rehearse his answers in contrast to joe biden the way that their presenting it. and that he's going to be ready to go on thursday. he left bedminster in new jersey and going to a fundraiser in new orleans. he has nothing on the public calendar until thursday night in atlanta. >> i could tell you that having written about debate preparations at previous presidential campaigns, i could tell you, i know exactly what is going on in joe biden's world. ron klain who is the guru of debate prep, there is nobody better and rigorous and methodical and running mock sessions and filming them and style coaches going on. donald trump's people, according to you, say hey we don't need this because the guy is out on the campaign trail and tuning up. this is what he's doing on the campaign trail. let's play that. >> and i have the wounds all over my body. if i took this shirt off, you'd see a beautiful, beautiful person. but you'd see wounds all over, all over me. i've taken a lot of wounds, i could tell you. more than i suspect any president ever. >> my stupid people, when i wanted to refute it, they said, sir, don't dignify it with a refutle -- refutle or refutle. what word would that be. he didn't know. refutle, they don't know either. as you know, he's been reported that crooked joe has gone to a lob cabin to study, prepare. no, he didn't -- he's sleeping now. because they want to get him good and strong so a little before debate time he gets a shot in the [ bleep ] and they want to strengthen him up. >> first, just for anybody who -- there was a word, refutal is a word. it is not that he didn't confuse it with rebuttal. i looked it up this morning because i looked it up. there is a word. there is so much to say about that in addition to the wholly objectionable beginning of it which raising the spector of looking at donald trump with his shirt on. i ask you, what do you expect in the context given what we know about trump and what we know about biden, which is a lot at this point, what are you expecting to see on thursday night? i don't think much of this preparation stuff, we know what we're going to get from biden, some version of what he'll try to do. trump is unpredictable. but what are you looking for that night? what are we going to see. >> i think we're going to see joe biden focusing on cntrast and i think we'll see scrappy joe from scranton. he didn't respect donald trump and i don't think he's afraid to take a few swings and he needs to. what he says is more important than how he says it. when trump tarts doing the most outrageous things. and don't kid yourself, the trump staff would love for their candidate to have enough discipline to prepare something. they would love it if he would actually sit down for ten minutes and think about how to strategize this debate. but trump's ego won't let him act like he needs help from anybody. so he's going to get up there and he's going to lie, from the opening gun until the end, and jake tapper and dana bash will have their hands full in trying to hold him to account in terms of fact check and i hope that joe biden takes a moment to show that he could be a street fighter. we need the tate of the union joe biden, not the dignified presidential joe biden. that is what we need on thursday night. >> david jolly, coy tell you that back in 2016, most of the sessions out of bedminster revolved around the hot dogs there and whether you -- how many hot dogs you could have and what the condiments well and all of that kind of stuff. i'll also note that i want to ask you this question, trump said that biden is going to be on drugs and ronnie johnson, according to trump, who name is ronny jackson, trump very mentally fit forgot the man's name. ronny jackson doubled down on that conspiracy theory saying he'll be cranked up on drugs. would you want to play that game if you were donald trump. would you want to take a drug test along joe biden if you were donald trump and beyond that question, what do you think is strategic imperative in this debate for joe biden? >> yeah, no, everything with donald trump is projection. and certainly with ronny jackson as well. they're not two people who should be suggesting drug testing for anybody. but let me start with mitch landrieu's comments. i was screaming into the wilderness when this happened but i don't think the debate should happen on thursday night. i think the day that donald trump got convicted the day he became an adjudicated criminal, the biden camp should have pulled out and say it is against the presidency to debate a criminal. it is too little too late for that. but we're seeing the normalizing. this is serious consequences. this is donald trump the criminal candidate putting him on stage with joe biden and i think it is a strategic decision that they made. the way to remember he's a felon is to say we're not debating a criminal. now for thursday night, short of a medical episode, i don't think anything that happens thursday night by either candidate will change the direction of the case but i think it will confirm the contours of it. i think joe biden will overperform. like he did at the state of the union. he's always underestimated and i overperforms and i think donald trump will be donald trump that helps joe biden. because the contours of this race make it very hard for donald trump to build a majority coalition because the voters he needs to bring back to him are people who don't like him. right. if you're not maga, you don't like donald trump. it is one of the reasons that you went with joe biden and democrats in the '18 and '20 and '22. so if thursday night is chaotic, i think that helps joe biden. i think it is a tragedy for the country to see. but i think biden will perform well. donald trump will remind voters who he is and that will hurt joe biden, or that will hurt donald trump. >> we have to go to a break. but there is a number of things to ub pack. but one of the questions that have been kicked around since trump was convicted, he's a convicted felon now and people should walk away. just talk about the political calculus there. i think there is a good -- there is a moral ethical normal argument to be made for that and yet if you talk to people in the biden came, they would say this race is too close to walk away and give donald trump the argument he most desperately wants which is the argument he's running on. me strong, you weak. joe biden afraid to debate me. i think that is not an argument they want to concede to him. >> and over the seven-week trial there were some conversations of the fact that the biden campaign was silent about the testimony that was coming you the from michael cohen and stormy daniels and outside of bringing robert de niro to manhattan, there was quietness and waiting for a verdict and that is what they did. they found donald trump guilty of all of the felonies and they are allowing those jurors to make that determination and clearly joe biden intends to use it. >> we're going to take a break. no one is going anywhere. we're going to talk about expectation setting and how bad it was in 2020 and the new rules that have adopted and asked for and whether cnn could enforce them and whether they will change things on thursday. right after this. and year after year, you weathered the storm and just lived with the damage that was left behind. but even after all this time your thyroid eye disease could still change. restoration is still possible. learn how you could give your eyes a fresh start at tedhelp.com. ♪♪ imagine a future where plastic is not wasted... but instead remade over and over... into the things that keep our food fresher, our families safer, and our planet cleaner. to help us get there, america's plastic makers are investing billions of dollars to create innovative products and new recycling technologies for sustainable change. because when you push for smarter solutions, big things can happen. this week on chewy, shop all your pet's favorites and get a $30 egift card. enjoy more savings on more food, more toys, and more treats. more of everything they love, delivered right to your door. only with chewy. what the biggest companies deliver is an exceptional customer experience. what makes it possible is unmatched connectivity and 5g solutions from t-mobile for business. t-mobile connects 100,000 delta airlines employees, powers tractor supply's stores nationwide with reliable 5g business internet, and partners with pga of america on game changing innovation. this is how business goes further with t-mobile for business. [ serene music playing ] this is how business goes further welcome to the wayborhood. the wayfair vibe at our place is western. my thing, darling? shine. gardening. some of us go for the dramatic. how didn't i know wayfair had vanities in tile? [ gasps ] this. wow! do you have any ottomans without legs. sure. you'll flip for the poof cart. in the wayborhood, there's a place for all of us. ♪ wayfair. every style. every home. ♪ the issue is the american people should speak. you should go out and vote. you're in voting now. vote and let your senators know how strong you feel. let vote -- >> are you going to pack the court. >> make sure you let people know. >> he doesn't want to answer the question. >> i'm not going to answer the question. >> why won't you answer that question. >> because the question is -- the question -- >> will you shut up, man. >> who is on your list, joe. who is on your list. >> gentlemen, i think we've ended this -- >> we're not going to give a list. >> we've ended that segment. >> that was really a productive segment. keep yapping, man. >> politically, not unpredictive for joe biden. that is one of the many moments had a helps him winning that debate in 2020. claire, we have a different kind of debate. there is a lot of things unprecedented including the presence of a felon on stage. but these debate rules that both sides agreed to. we have a debate that 90 minutes long, two commercial breaks and no studio audience and microphones will be muted when it is not the candidate's turn. that will be run from the control room. not by the moderators. no campaign staff interactions in breaks. closing statements, biden will go first and then donald trump, no opening statements. tell me what you think of the efficacy and we're getting speculative, but do you think this is going to create a better experience for the american people, and for respectively for the candidates because of these rules? >> yeah, i think -- i think probably it will help -- will help be enlarge. because it will stop the audience reaction. i really think that what joe biden said is not as important as how he says if. and by the way. trump has set up expectations for this in a way that really helped biden. trump has spent the last six months not convincing america that joe biden can't walk or talk. he has spent the last six months considering that he has an addled brain so joe biden is going to show a command of the issues and not afraid of this guy and he's going to look strong and he's going to come after him just like stop your yapping and shut up, man. joe biden is going to do that. and i honestly think it will be harder for trump this time, frankly cutting off the microphones, you could argue that maybe it helped biden if the microphones keep going. but in this instance, and i just think it is really important for us to keep pointing out, john and we have to point this out over and over again, trump's lawyers helped pick the lawyers that convicted and trump agreed to these rules. trump agreed to the rules. so he couldn't say this is a rigged rule deal. he agreed to them just like he helped pick the jury. so i think it is important that be reminding everybody of that. he'll try after he loses the debate to say it is rigged against me because he can't lose anything. he has to make up shit -- stuff, sorry. >> oh, there we go. who would predict it would be not me to drop profanity on air. and david jolly, the expectation setting is pretty incredible. i did interview for my podcast, the share of biden campaign in which she was emphatic and unwavering about the campaign's likely outcome, joe biden is going to win this race. but she made some comments about trump, i'll play one of them in a second. but she made comments about trump and not saying well he's addled and he wouldn't be able to get through a complete sentence and that is what republicans have done. and i ask you, to some extent, did they not learn anything from the state of the union where they said this man will not be able to stand up for an hour up there and he's going to end up with dribble on his shirt and not able to complete a english language sentence. they set the bar so low, biden soared over it. but that is not that long ago and they got they are headed handed to them. on the expectation game, what are they expecting from this. >> he won't take a breath or shut up and you need the moments where joe biden said shut up, man. but he will overperform. joe biden does. and he always does. it is unlike the state of the union. he doesn't control the microphones and control the floor. but joe biden is going to do just fine and it will surprise republicans. they'll say we expected him to do fine. what i'm looking for is this. if you really want to help shape this race, the most efficient use of time, i believe for joe biden, is to talk about reproductive freedom as much as you can and as much as you want. because the disparity with american voters looking at democrats and republicans is the largest. and i expect we'll hear donald trump's most efficient argument on immigration. he'll pull a craty brit and try to scare the country. that is baked in. i would like to see from joe biden and i don't think we've had this national conversation and he could lead it. the economy is doing very well. it is morning in america again. the stock market is in the an all-time high and home ownership is all-time high and access to health care and education and more people will go to work than ever before. so we're measurering the economy by inflation. but inflation must not be the number one economic metric that the american people use to look at the economy going into november. joe biden's economy is a good one. sure, make the inflation argument, but focus america's attention on the economy growth that is occurring right now in they're neighborhood and in their town. joe biden is going to have a very good night to focus on that. >> we're going to take another break and come back and claire is going to have her camera and her sound all teed up, wired up and ready to go. vaughn is still here. and so is david. i'm going to play a little bit of that sound from that interview. with jen o'malley dylan 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(♪♪) ♪ control is everything to me ♪ learn how abbvie could help you save. i think every day, he has an opportunity to show the american people, you know, the power ever his vision and his ideas. yes, of course, this matters, for the two of them standing side-by-side. and it is an opportunity not just for the american people to see joe biden in all the things that wee see every day, but also to see donald trump. and i think and i know you've talked about this on some of your podcasts, i think part of what has happened in this country is that donald trump hasn't had to answer for himself because people are not seeing him and what he's saying. people are not seeing him day in and day out with the things that he said. that is a big part of why this really does matter. is it the be all and end all of the whole deal. of course not. it is a moment in time that will have impact. >> we're back with vaughn and claire and david, and vaughn, i want to ask you, jen o'malley came up here and made a state visit last week and did a bunch ever meetings with people off the record and talked about the kind that came on my show which was nice and answered a lot of questions. her point here is they're frustrated with media coverage. part of the reason they play so much trump is they think the press goes out to a trump event and they write about the most trivial things on front page of the newspaper in nevada and he goes to los angeles and called insurrectionists warriors and say they were set up and people talk about his immigration policy and they're like that should lead and i have sympathy for that. do you think that that is a case that joe biden can effectively prosecute when we have read today in "the new york times" that cnn, david challian said for the first time, moderators will not fact check in real time. that is up to joe biden. that is a challenge when someone lies as much as trump and it gets to what jen is talking about in the clip. >> it is difficult over the last years that the donald trump is really run to the right-wing outlets that are largely become propaganda outlets for him. and there is little fact check. he did the cnn town hall with katelyn collins and kristin welker, those are the only mainstream interviews he's done since january 6. only two of them in almost four years. so this is the difficult for donald trump. is that a lot of what the former president has, you know, said from the campaign stage or to those right wing outlets are not true. the baseline is that the 2020 election was stolen. there are conspiracy theories that stem from that that are very difficult for the current president to make a calculation in this debate. do you try to explain to the american public where some of the statements coming out of donald trump's mouth are not real or bypass that knowing that his microphone is off and trying to put forward the vision that you want. because let's be frank, the last couple of years, there wasn't any that wanted donald trump to go away, including biden allies that didn't want donald trump to say things because they didn't think he would run for president again. we're only four months out and clearly they've made the calculation that they want american public to hear from donald trump because it is detrimental to them. and nicolle talks about, it is thing i just mentioned to vaughn, i'm going to read this thing from "the new york times" because it is a real thing here. you've got this -- they're not going to cut off trump's microphone and when he speaks he will lie. he lies about almost everything. he lies about every word in the english language including and, of, but and the. the rule of the moderator is in dispute and david chally an said that thursday's life debate is not the ideal arena for live fact checking. instead dana bash and jake tapper will focus on not being a participant in the debate knowing that cnn analysts will assess the veracity after the telecast. now this goes back to the controversy about candy crowelly back in 2012 which she fact checked mitt romney. there are still romney in the presidential debate against barack obama. cnn is going to stay away from that. that puts the onus in real time on joe biden. if you were counseling joe biden in debate prep, how much of that do you want to have him do? any, a little, a lot? >> i think it's going to depend a lot on joe biden's judgment at the time. i think he should fact check some of the most outlandish stuff. he can do that by saying, you know, i think the vast majority of america knows that's just him lying. he lies a lot. he's comfortable lying. i'm not comfortable lying. you know what, i really question how jake tapper and dana bash are going to get through this. if they ask trump a question and he answers with a blatant lie, are they supposed to smile and nod their head? these are real journalists. i'm not saying they should be fact checking him, but allowing him to spin tales that are fanciful, you know, i just -- it will be interesting to see how this works because i know it's going to put their teeth on edge when they ask him a question and he blatantly lies and they've got to wait for joe biden to say something about it. i don't think joe biden should spend the entire debate calling him a liar, but he should strategically in important moments say this guy is comfortable lying. don't ever forget that. >> i think one of those moments will be if donald trump calls january 6th insurrectionists heros. clair mcgas kill, thank you. david jolly, you're a great american. up next, as promised. katie phang has emerged. she's liberated from the courtroom in florida. how today's gag order hearing in the mar-a-lago classified documents case went down in aileen cannon's courtroom. we'll get to that coming up. 'll. the hearing in the classified documents case in florida has ended for the day. judge aileen cannon heard arguments, including whether to modify the bond application on donald trump's release, specifically on jack smith's motion to gag order him. let's bring in katie phang who was inside the courthouse and has been liberated. katie, what happened today? >> reporter: we just got out of the hearing. it starting at 3:00. just got out at 5:00. it didn't go well for the government. there was a tense moment between judge aileen cannon and the special counsel where she dressed him down and said, i don't appreciate your tone. i expect a quorum of all time. if not, one of your colleagues can take on this motion. she was challenging him as to whether or not things like redactions that have been done in public filings, protecting the names of witnesses, including law enforcement, are sufficient. she indicated that how far back in time do we need to go to see whether or not there have been threats made to law enforcement? special counsel's office making it clear, quote, these statements are required to be prohibited by trump so they can prevent significant imminent and foreseeable danger to law enforcement agents participating in the investigation and prosecution of the case. todd blanche getting up and saying, look, judge, you're trying to infringe upon donald trump's right to have protected political speech. there's no connection between the examples brought by special counsel and donald trump. there's an ability for him as a political candidate to be able to make statements and the exhibits that the government presented, judge cannon, indicated she was agreeing with todd blanche. it didn't seem to rise to the level of bond modification. at this time a lot of us believing it's not going to be good for the government. >> do you have any idea when she's going to rule on this case? knowing her i'm hoping for sometime this century. >> reporter: not any time soon. she's allowing them to supplement in the next couple days. maybe in the next month i would say. >> yeah, the wheels of justice turning very, very slowly. katie phang, thank you. when we come back, two years since the united states supreme court struck down a woman's right to choose in the united states of america. how that issue is playing and is shaping up to play in this election year. more "deadline: white house" coming up. from wherever you are. e*trade from morgan stanley power e*trade's easy to-use tools make complex trading less complicated. custom scans can help you find new trading opportunities, while an earnings tool helps you plan your trades and stay on top of the market. e*trade from morgan stanley to me, harlem is home. but home is also your body. i asked myself, why doesn't pilates exist in harlem? so i started my own studio. getting a brick and mortar in new york is not easy. chase ink has supported us from studio one to studio three. when you start small, you need some big help. and chase ink was that for me. earn up to 5% cash back on business essentials with the chase ink business cash card from chase for business. make more of what's yours. 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(vo) new and existing customers get iphone 15 on us when they trade in any iphone. verizon ♪♪ ♪♪ getting it back to the states puts the question where it belongs with the vote of the people and over time it will all work out. it's working out right now, but it's all going to work out. it's what everybody wanted, including the legal scholars. it's what everybody wanted it to be. >> hello and welcome to the 5:00 hour here in gotham city. i'm in for nicolle wallace. two years ago today the u.s. supreme court thanks in large part to donald trump stacking it with conservative justices took away a woman's right to a abortion. when the supreme court overturned roe v. wade a cascade of laws around the country limiting abortion came down. some states enacting full bans. some banning when pregnancy is up to six weeks. so contrary to what the disgraced ex president said this weekend. the consequences of this decision are not where everyone wanted it to be. they have been dire and scary for women and the men who love them in this country. women have been close to death because of these restrictions, unable to get the care they need, forced to carry unviable pregnancies to term or travel across state lines to get medical help. the american public does not want that reality and rejected it in almost every state -- in kansas, kentucky, oh ohio and others. vice president kamala harris spoke to that phenomenon in a new interview with mika brzezinski. >> if you look at where the american people were in so-called red states and blue states, every time this issue of abortion was on the ballot the people voted for freedom. that's who the american people are. we have our differences, but the american people believe in the integrity of our country and our values, which include that we protect and fight for individual freedoms and liberties. >> the biden/harris re-election campaign has made this a corner stone of its effort hoping it will probe voters to vote in this this election. according to planned parenthood, this issue could be decisive in arizona, georgia and north carolina. today democrats are hammering home the contrast between the two presidential nominees, one who wants to protect women's freedoms and one who is the reason, one of the main reasons, why the freedom was taken away. here's more from vice president harris speaking in college park, maryland. >> this is a health care crisis. we all know who is to blame, donald trump. trump has not denied, much less shown remorse, for his actions. instead he, quote, proudly takes credit for overturning roe. my fellow americans, in a court of law, that would be called an admission. some would say a confession. all pointing to the ultimate issue, in the case of the stealing of reproductive freedom from the women of america, donald trump is guilty. >> the politics of women's reproductive health is where we start with michelle goodwin, georgetown law school professor and author, plus correspondent caddy kay and democratic strategist at hunter college basil smokey. michelle, start with you. give us the 30,000-foot on the contrast between these two nominees, familiar figures both, donald trump and joe biden, on this central issue both to women's lives and politics today. >> both have made their concerns in this regard very clear. before the presidency of 2016 when donald trump was running he promised to punish women who wanted to have abortions. he has boasted about creating a federal bench that delivered on that and more, stripping away roe v. wade and planned parenthood v. casey and creating mayhem across the country. we've seen cases of a 10-year-old having to flee one state to get an abortion. there are mothers who are bleeding out on the sides of roads. there are doctors who had to flee their states in order to terminate pregnancies. we've seen the supreme court of arizona going back to an 1864 abortion ban. we've seen the supreme court of alabama say that embryos have constitutional personhood and are children. on the other hand we have joe biden who has said he'll do all he possibly can, not only to make sure that reproductive health care access is available for abortion, but also a commitment to saving women's lives. the u.s. has the highest rate of maternal mortality of any western nation. joe biden has made clear it's about access to contraception, access to pregnancy termination and being able to survive pregnancies in the united states which is not a guarantee for all women and especially women of color and black women. >> caddy kay, if you mark the beginning of the trump era in american politics as january 2017, when he was still the president elect and not yet president, then when he came into office, the two defining features of that era have been donald trump and his lunacy and criminality on one side and women becoming -- rising to a different place in american politics from the women's march in 2017 to today, in the streets, at the ballot box. talk about that and why it's most predictable and maybe apt thing in the world we're looking at an election in which the power of women could be decisive in november. >> yeah, i mean, women have decided the last six american presidential elections they vote in bigger numbers than men. women and minority groups have a huge amount of sway as to who gets into the white house. it's not a new phenomenon that women have a lot of power at the ballot box. the question coming into november is whether this issue which has motivated so many women, but also men around the country. the polling around men is interesting. we've seen it in kentucky and ohio and kansas. it's been men turning out as well. when it comes to the election in november, people are going to be weighing the issue of abortion against a whole host of other issues. that's where the poling gets more complicated for democrats. we've seen it time and again. the pro-choice movement has won in all those, even conservative states. will it be the same when it comes to the national election when people weigh abortion against immigration and the economy and inflation. will it be enough to push the democrats to power? >> basil, i'll put up a poll, a poll that's been reflective of reality for quite a long time. this poll talks about the pew research poll about support for abortion. it says here that abortion in america we believe 63% of voters believe it should be legal in all or most cases. 39% believe it should be illegal in all or most cases. that's a basic breakdown. if you're a political strategist, you look at those numbers and think if i'm on the 63% side of this, i have some material to work with. the biden/harris campaign is doing it. i want to give you one more thing and let you go to down. "politico" has a story, inside the $100 million plan to restore abortion rights in america, the abortion rights groups marking the second anniversary of the fall of roe v. wade with a pledge to spend $100 million to restore that procedure. groups including planned parenthood, the aclu and reproductive freedom are bonding together to form a super group that will prepare policies for the next time the democrats control the house, senate and white house and build support among the public. there's the outside groups. we saw vice president harris and heard the biden campaign. talk to us about this from the standpoint of a political operative. >> sure. first and foremost, i like to see that kamala harris is out there speaking very forcefully about this issue and more about this issue. i've long said that she's in many cases the administration's secret weapon. i wanted them to use her more on the campaign trail. looks like they're doing that. she represents an intersectionality around so many issues that she can speak to not just women, but particularly women of color on a host of things. i think she will be very effective at doing that. i'm glad to see they're using her more. as you talk about the advocacy groups that are creating these larger campaigns, i think that's really important because, as donald trump said, this is pushed through the state. as a former party executive director for new york state, i can tell you the importance of really supporting the entire ticket, do not leave any seat uncontested if you're a democrat. these organizations can actually help to bolster the entire ticket. that matters because if there's a ten-year plan for this, they cannot only affect races taking place today, but can affect the entire pipeline of elected officials that can rally around and campaign on this issue of reproductive rights, especially as the vice president talked about. it's not just about reproductive rights and the creation of reproductive deserts because of the dobbs decision, it's about maternal health, black maternal health, and health care broadly. i think those advocates play a significant role in the ten-year plan around campaigning around this issue. lastly i would say, what republicans have done and democrats have to be prepared for, what republicans have done is pivot away from this in some of their races, congressional and other races. we've seen them take reproductive rights off their websites. they realize this is a losing issue relative to your point about the 63%. they pivoted towards crime and immigration, which don't really affect suburban voters in the way they portray, but they're using it as a wedge to try to mobilize suburban voters against democrats. it's the area that the democrats have to be strong in in pushing back against. you've seen that in congressional races. you've seen democrats be successful in that regard. it's something going forward the party is needing to look more at. republicans realize it's a losing issue in some ways in some seats for them and they're pivoting elsewhere. i think democrats are ready for that. >> michelle, i want to play more sound and you talk about it on the other side. there are a lot of issues in politics that are two thirds, one third issues, issues where the popular position is clear. the real point in politics is whether these are issues that are salient to voters, whether they cut with voters. in a lot of cases the two things that make an issue cut is whether its consequences are severe and widely cut. i would say abortion is both, pervasive impact and devastating impact. here's the sound of hadley duval talking about her experience, what happened to her when she was a 12-year-old girl. >> if there's a woman who is in that reproductive age, then, you know, her life is at stake during this election. >> now you're speaking out because a trump win would mean what for little girls in the situation you were in? >> it would mean the unimaginable. it would mean they have no options, not only women and girls, but women with nonviable pregnancies, wanted pregnancies that are killing these women. it will be no traveling to another state. it will be no options based on where you live. it will just be one rule for everybody and that will be no abortions. that is a very, very dangerous world for women, not only young girls, but all women. >> hadley duvall raped by her stepfather at the age of 12. later miscarried. has become a huge abortion rights campaigner. she was a pivotal -- pivotal in an ad that was pivotal for governor beshear. talking about this last two years since roe v. wade fell. >> it's an utter tragedy is what it is. it's a new jane crow. that's not hyperbole. we've seen cruel and unusual punishments inflicted on women and girls. there are lawmakers in south carolina and louisiana that have called for the death penalty against women and girls who would seek abortions. there are lawmakers in louisiana who have said it's not compelling to them 8-year-olds becoming mothers. there are lawmakers who said there should be no exceptions for matter of rape or incest or morbidity where one could have a lifetime disabling condition. before the supreme court is a challenge that idaho has brought saying that federal law does not apply, the federal law that protects any and all of us to go to any emergency room, receive life-saving health care. in idaho you have lawmakers saying that shouldn't apply if you happen to be pregnant. it's the most devastating, it's the most cruel, it is truly the most unusual and as i mentioned, given that we're a country that has the highest levels of maternal mortality and morbidity in all the industrialized world, we ranked 55th in the world in terms of maternal health and safety. this is absolutely extreme. it's hard to find something in the vernacular, in a dictionary, that would describe a nation saying we turn our backs on girls and women and we don't care if you die in the expression of men seeking to exert their power. the dobbs decision came from the state of mississippi where 86% of the legislature was male dominant. in all these states you have a kind of science fiction reality of men establishing these kinds of laws that are so draconian, so restrictive that expose they're cruel power plays. it's hard in any other way to express any kind of ethic or morality from which the basis of these come. in fact, it's anti-christian. it's very much anti-humane. dr. king said in 1966 of all the forms of inequality and inequity, that involving health was the worst because it could lead to someone's death. dr. king is also the person in 1966 that received the planned parenthood humanitarian of the year award. it said women deserve to lead full, independent, healthy lives and not die in the process and be coerced by the state into a reproductive future that's cruel. >> michelle goodwin, thank you so much. katty and basil are sticking around. one of the women at the forefront in the fight to win reproductive freedom and later in the hour brand new reporting about project 2025, the effort by donald trump and his allies to dramatically revamp the federal government to do his bidding if he wins a second term in november. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. do not go anywhere. k break. do not go anywhere with 30 grams of protein. (♪♪) your shipping manager left to “find themself.” leaving you lost. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire if you spit blood when you brush, it could be the start of a domino effect. new parodontax active gum repair breath freshener. clinically proven to help reverse the four signs of early gum disease. a new toothpaste from parodontax, the gum experts. had a miscarriage. the pain i was feeling was excruciating. i was turned away from two emergency rooms. it was a direct result of donald trump overturning roe v. wade. he's now a convicted felon. trump thinks he should not be held accountable for his criminal actions, but he'll let doctors be punished. we want to support someone who has our best interests at heart. >> that's a new ad from the biden/harris campaign highlighting donald trump's consequences justices overturning roe v. wade. the fight for abortion rights and the danger for women posed by a second trump term has been the center piece of the biden re-election campaign. amanda zurosky came forward about almost dying from lack of care in the state of texas. here she is on the gop's efforts to ban ivf. >> i nearly lost my life due to texas' extreme abortion rights. my fertility was permanently compromised. my husband and i have been trying for a family through ivf. the supreme court decision overturning roe v. wade unleashed extreme state laws that are threatening access to ivf. it never stops. let's be clear, donald trump can't win. >> let's bring in amanda, the lead plaintiff in the lawsuit challenging the texas abortion ban. katty kay also here with us. amanda, i'm looking at the states you've been to -- michigan, nevada, new hampshire, wisconsin, north carolina. i'm curious. you've become a public person around this issue. talk about the reaction that you get when you're out on the road campaigning in this way and what people -- how the effort is to try to raise people's awareness about as bad as things are now how worse they can be if donald trump gets re-elected. >> absolutely. thank you for having me. you're exactly right. i've been quite busy. i'm in wisconsin right now. you know, as we're traveling around the country and visiting key battleground states and talking to folks across the country, there's an overwhelming amount of support. people are angry about what's going on in this country. they are scared about the chaos that has been unleashed and how much worse it could get if donald trump is re-elected. with that said, people are also really motivated and they are hopeful and i think people are working really hard. i'm seeing it firsthand across the country. to make sure that president biden gets re-elected. >> your parents did an ad, if i read this right, for an abortion rights advocacy organization called free and just. i would like to play a bit of that too to give you a sense of what democrats are trying to do on the political battlefield. let's play that ad. >> the phone rang. she said, mom, we're going to lose the baby. doctors knew that amanda's baby had no chance of surviving. >> because of the extreme abortion ban in her state, we were also about to lose her. doctors were not allowed to help her until she was almost dying. >> we have always been conservative. >> we feel a national abortion ban would be devastating for all families. >> that ad is part of a $1.5 million tv and radio ad buy in wisconsin and ohio. talk about what it was like to have -- how the process by which your parents were convinced to do this ad, what their politics are like, how they feel about being public in this way, just the whole experience. it's a horrific experience for anyone to have gone through, for parents, for the child. tell me how they've been engaged in this fight. >> yeah. it has been horrific and it was very dramatic for them. i'm smiling because i'm so dang proud of them. this is very outside of their comfort zone. it's out of their wheelhouse. they live in a very conservative area. as they said, they're conservative folks. they're life long republicans. they have, you know, traditionally had very conservative values. but, on this issue, they're very supportive as we see across the country. i think their message is really inspiring because it's going to resonate with so many people. it's those personal stories that i think are going to change people's opinions and make them really wake up because, you know, like i said, my parents come from a conservative area. when they see what's happening in states like texas and other ban states, folks are waking up and changing the way they think about this issue and hopefully their votes in november. >> amanda, i was wondering when you speak around the country and you speak to groups, what's the reaction you get from men? of course some of the people that come to hear you speak, it's self-selected because they're interested in your story and sympathetic to your case. do you get a sense of how many men are involved in this issue as well? >> absolutely. i am seeing more and more men on the campaign trail at different stops. the second gentleman a few weeks ago held an event for men on this issue. for a while hey didn't know how to get involved. i think they really wanted to. as more join the fight and as more are speaking up, they're realizing this isn't just a women's issue. it's a human rights issue. it's an american issue. so, as more men are speaking up and getting involved in the fight, i see it growing, which is encouraging because we need their help. >> how do you think about the way the next six months or so will unfold for you? you're passionately engaged in this advocacy. it's just so grueling in some ways. you're not running for president, but you're taking on the travel schedule of someone who is. just tell me how you see the months unfolding between now and november 5th. >> well, i think i'm going to be busy. i think i'm going to be traveling quite a bit. you know, there's nothing more important to me than this right now. i said it before. this campaign and ensuring that we reelect president biden is exhausting work. it puts me to bed at night, but also gets me up in the morning. i'm built for this. i used to be a marathon runner. i'm in it for the long haul. >> a marathon runner, that will be helpful. stay hydrated please. amanda, thank you for coming on. katty kay, always a pleasure. see you next time. when we return, how donald trump's allies are systematically compiling a list of federal workers they think could stand in his way if donald trump should regain the presidency in november. that story coming up after a very short break. chief! doug. (inaudible sounds) ooooo ah. (elevator doors opening) (inaudible sounds) i thought you were right behind me. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, ♪ ♪ liberty. ♪ the promise of this nation should extend to all from new york to new mexico, from alaska to alabama. but right now, people like you are losing their freedoms. some in power are suppressing voting rights. banning our kids books from libraries and attacking our right to make private health care decisions. we must act now to defend these freedoms and protect our democracy. and we can't do it without you. we are the american civil liberties union, and we're asking you to join us in protecting our democracy at the national level and in communities like yours. call or go online to myaclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. your gift of just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day will help ensure that together we can continue to fight for the freedoms of all americans, no matter your zip code. if you also believe in the right to vote, the right to free speech, the right to learn, the right to bodily autonomy. please join us now. these are your fundamental rights that people are playing with. and so you need to get involved, because if you don't, then someone else is going to decide whether or not you get to choose what happens to your own body. so please call or go to myaclu.org and become an aclu guardian of liberty for just $19 a month. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt and more to show you're part of a movement to protect the rights of all people. we can't make systemic change in the way that we want to doing it by ourselves. we have to work together because we the people, means all of us. from sea to shining sea. so please call or go online to myaclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. new reporting today from the associated press provides one of the clearest most dystopian look yet at the way conservatives are operating efforts to have the table set for donald trump. it has to do with tom jones. not that tom jones. a different tom jones. this one a seasoned political operative leading the american accountability foundation from the comfort of his home office in kentucky. he's working to identify and expose federal employees suspected by him of being, quote, hostile to donald trump's policies. the a.p. reports he's digging through, quote, background, social media posts and commentary of key high-ranking government employees starting with the office of homeland security. they're relying on tips from workers and preparing to publish the findings online. it won't surprise you to find out the money is a $100,000 grant from the heritage foundation, the authors of project 2025. that includes mass deportations and federal limits on reproductive rights, but its crown jewel is a promise to reclassify tens of thousands of federal workers who could be fired for not towing the line and supporting president trump. the man who has been called the architect of project 2025 kevin roberts spoke to our colleagues on msnbc. >> i suspect a lot of those people have been in the federal service for a long time and have served not just republican administrations, but democratic administrations. >> they have. 95% of them who give political contributions give them to the democratic party. >> but that's -- >> i reject that -- >> you're going to fire someone because they wrote a check to a democratic candidate. >> no. we're going to fire someone -- the number needs to be more than $50,000 because over the last century the radical left has seen the administrative state as the fourth arm of government. >> joining us now is ian and basil, who is back. that was an epic analysis on abortion politics and we're waiting for another one from you, basil. ian, talk about the american accountability foundation from the -- i gave the basics of it. but this doesn't sound so much as a foundation, but vigilante, one dude, maybe more to it than that. talk about what the scope of this effort, the image of a guy working on his computer in kentucky is a little scary and can be depending on how malicious it is, but the bankroll is not nothing. >> yeah. if you told me there was one guy with a $100,000 grant looking for government employees, i wouldn't be too worried, but this is part of a broader effort. not just identify government employees who may be hostile to a hypothetical trump administration, but to burrow down into the government and take jobs that historically have been held by civil servants and turn them into political jobs. you know, i never thought i would say this, but i miss conservatism. i miss the idea that we should try to keep things the way they are and not make huge sweeping changes for the sake of disrupting things. the idea that civil servants should be protected from political influence -- the first law of establishment was signed by chester arthur, he was president in the 1880s. it's a very old idea. it's a very good idea and ensures the government continues to operate and doesn't swing wildly back and forth based on who is in authority. gosh, i wish that everything wasn't on the table right now. >> basil, i'll read a little more from this a.p. piece so you get a better picture of what we're talking about here. the group creating a list of federal authorities that could resist trump plans. any time there's a list it makes us nervous. jones' team works around the country pouring over information on government workers, the state department. their focus is on the highest ranks, 13, 14, 15 employees and those in senior executives who could put up road blocks to trump's plans. quote, it's important for the next administration to understand who those people are. he dismissed -- jones said -- he dismissed the risks that could be involved in publicly posting the names, salary information, or ideas that the employees have privacy. quote, you don't get to make policy and say, hey, don't scrutinize me. i think someone should have a discussion with tom jones about what the civil service does because make policy is not really their bailiwick. talk about the politics of this and whether this is -- it's obviously a disturbing trend. we'll talk about the heritage plan, the 2025 plan. talk about how much damage you think a band of list makers like this in today's day and age could do. >> i love the chester arthur reference because there was a time in our country where jobs were the sort of point of the realm for the federal government, oddly enough in the post office. over time, you know, federal administrators and the president himself realized that we need a more professional government. therefore, you had civil servants, civil workers who were good at their job and wanted to be public servants that said they wanted to go in government. you had a whole host of people charged with not just being in that sort of federal service corp., but overseeing their work to make sure they weren't -- that they were still working in the public interest. what i always tell people is that, even if initially the president constitutionally or otherwise was not given a lot of power, the presidency has a tremendous amount of power because of the massive bureaucracy they oversee. when you think about the hundreds of thousands of jobs that the president can -- where the president can appoint individuals, this is a complete reshaping of the goal of the heritage foundation's plan, is to completely reshape government. they just don't want to take back government. they want to reshape it, reclaim and it craft it in such a way that doesn't look anything like what we know today. that is incredibly scary because the guardrails are over, the oversight is off and it becomes a matter of political ideology. for so long in our history we've fought against that, to make sure the people who have these jobs can actually do them well and do them in service of the people in this country. >> i'm going to -- do we have time to play sound here? do we have to get to break? we're going to play a little sound here. the heritage foundation -- >> merrick garland, the senior members of -- >> that sound came right in there. i'm going to set it up. 2025 plan is bad, but it's all on paper. you have to see the face of it, what it could be if you're on a list. what happens to you if you're on a list? here's steve bannon. >> we're coming after lisa monaco, merrick garland, the senior members of doj that are prosecuting president trump, jack smith and this is not about vengeance or revenge or retribution. it's about saving this republic. we're going to use the constitution. let me tell the people that have done that to president trump, whether you're in the federal government or whether you're down in the state of georgia or you're in arizona or you're in michigan. we are going to go and get every single receipt and to the fullest extension of the law, you are going to be investigated, prosecuted and incarcerated. okay. >> you know, that's a man who's making a list and checking it twice and not in the best way. it's a list that i believe a number of people at this network, including me, are on. i ask you, when you hear somebody say it's not about vengeance, revenge or retribution, i usually think when somebody says that, that's exactly what it's about. how much danger would federal civil servants be armed with the list when you put them in the hands of someone like steve bannon? >> first of all, it's important to understand we're not just talking about government employees in danger. steve bannon was talking about getting more political oversight and control of the department of justice, the department that brings prosecutions. he was talking about getting the department of justice and it's historically been an extraordinary amount of insulation between doj and the white house because you don't want doj making prosecutorial decisions based on are you a friend of the president or an enemy of the president. anything about doj can scare the be jesus out of you. the reason why civil service protection exists is because the law means something. barack obama signs obamacare and if the next president doesn't like obamacare, there's civil servants pushing out the checks authorized by obamacare. if someone else becomes president, the post office doesn't say we'll only deliver mail to republicans now. the idea is that whatever congress has said the law is, you want people in government who will continue to apply the law and continue to do what the law requires until a new law is signed. >> listen, the whole thing spooks me, scares me. there was once upon a time political -- civil servants had political opinions and it didn't matter. that's how it's supposed to work. ian, thank you. basil, thank you. you're not going anywhere. we need to take a quick break. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ [ grunts ] [ laughs ] (vo) if you have graves' 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and how you think joe biden in particular should handle the notion that the moderators are not going to do any real-time fact checking. it will be up to him. a little, a lot, none. fact checking. what do you think about that? >> i think it's up to him a lot. if you are being attacked by a bully, you punch the bully back in the nose. that's what you do. you know? donald trump is going after him, you have to go back and him equally, or with more aggression. there's a lot at stake. quite frankly i think one thing they really want to see -- they are looking for this. which is the thing i believe a lot of voters like from donald trump. they want to know that you are going to fight for them. i think joe biden needs to come with that passion and energy. i felt it was counterintuitive for something we think about. the reality is, there's so much at stake. voters need to feel that you will fight for them. if we turn quickly to the project 2025, it's not a platform. it's an instruction manual. if joe biden can articulate line by line why that document is not only going to guide republicans on what they should do it donald trump becomes president, but wife so bad for the rest of us. if he can do that and do that well, i think he comes out head and shoulders in this debate. >> thank you both for spending some time with us. i love that instruction manual platform that's really good. i'm going to remember that. a quick break for us and we will be right back. back. a lot of new dry eye patients in my office tell me about their frequent dry eyes, which may point to dry eye disease. millions of americans were estimated to have it. they've tried artificial tears again and again, but the relief is temporary. xiidra can provide lasting relief. xiidra treats the signs and symptoms of dry eye disease. don't use if you're allergic to xiidra. common side effects include eye irritation, discomfort or blurred vision when applied to the eye, and unusual taste sensation. doctor: why wait? ask 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