the u.s., not a shadow one. >> we made every effort to ensure that the relevant decision makers at the national security council and the state department knew the important details of our efforts. the suggestion that we were engaged in some irregular or rogue diplomacy is absolutely false. >> as an experienced diplomat yourself, what did you think of that argument? >> oh, i definitely think that's sondland trying to cover himself and give more credibility to the fact that he effectively was somebody who had put his nose where it didn't belong, and he had put himself out there at the president's request of bringing somebody like rudy giuliani and his goons into a long-standing policymaking process that pre-dated president trump and even pre-dated the obamas in some way because we know from bill taylor's testimony, from the ambassador's testimony that