That word vagina would have not been said, you know, on public television. So when you sit back and you think, wow, i really have had an impact, i mean, on many levels, but on that particular issue the fact that you have changed how one word about a womans most intimate anatomy is seen and discussed. What does that mean for you . You know, its really hard to evaluate what youve done, you know, and its actually not for me to figure out. Hinojosa and youre such a humble person, i know that, but. What i feel good about is that people seem to say the word more, and what is significant about that is it means that vaginas actually exist, and if they exist, then we can have agency and rights over our vaginas, and we can know what gives them pleasure or doesnt give them pleasure, and we can say no when we mean no, and we can. We can actually create a reality so that bad things dont happen to them in the dark and thats exciting to me. Hinojosa because essentially, you know, your generation, my generation it was just something that you never, ever, ever talked about, ever looked at, ever discussed, ever thought about. And also never had any pleasure around. You know, we were talking about the other day, friends of mine when we were brought up, we werent taught that sex was something that could give you pleasure, or that emboldened your life, or that was a central part of who you were; it was something you did to have babies, or something you did and you didnt talk about it, or you just got through, like an exam, do you know . And the idea that women now can actually know their bodies and know their vaginas and know their clitoris and know what gives them pleasure, so that men and women can be in this or men. Or women and women, or whatever People Choose to be in partnership with but that our sexualitys part of our life, and not something thats embarrassed, or hidden, or censored or muted. Its our life force; its where our energy comes from. Hinojosa so when you look out into america, lets because you do a lot of international work, and were going to get into that in a second but what do you see . Because i always feel like its constant contradiction, you know . On the one hand, a sense of younger women feeling empowered being able to talk about their vaginas, et cetera on the other hand, it feels like, you know, very crude; that somehow women who are, you know, more sexually out there are using it in a way that maybe is not the. What do you see when you look out . You know, i know this is a general way of seeing it, but and the word is still not the best word but patriarchy is still alive, you know . Were still living within a patriarchal structure. Hinojosa so define patriarchy for our viewers. To me, patriarchy is really the notion that there is a father. Kind of omnipotent father state, and the mechanisms of that are kind of occupation domination. I think it means that values that are not necessarily attributable to a man or a woman but maybe called feminine values of cooperation, values of emotions, values of connecting to people and doing things through invitation, and doing things on the basis of agreement rather than domination, or, you know, just even the way see the earth, for example. That the earth is something alone to us. Shes. Shes a gift to us, and we are to honor her, and to cherish her, and to replenish her, and to think of all the ways we can keep her sacred and alive. Patriarchy is about how you take from the earth, and get from the earth, and plummet the earth, and plunger the earth, and reap what you can in the moment so youll have the most power, and the most resources, and the most money and the most power. Hinojosa and be the biggest guy. The biggest, the strongest. Hinojosa the Biggest Country on the block. Right, and so its all about power, isnt it . Its all about keeping yourself in a place of domination, and keeping yourself in a place where youre on top. And i think, for me, as long as that paradigm is still the paradigm that were living in, women will always be stifled, muted, objectified, because thats part of how that paradigm keeps in place. Hinojosa well, what about when you have more women who are kind of owning their power, lets say politically . I think what happens very often in this culture is that women think the way to get ahead is to mirror themselves on the basis of men who are in power, and so, often, when they come into leadership positions, they still operate the way men operate. And actually, sometimes, theyre actually more vigilant in that role because they have to prove that theyre more men than men are. And so sometimes they end up becoming more oppressive in those roles. Hinojosa more of a bully . More of a bully. And i think, what does it mean for a woman to be in power . Thats a really. What does it mean for someone to be in power in their feminine empowered self . And that can be true for a man too, and i think. Michelle obama, to me, kind of epitomizes that. She is somebody who creates dialogue, shes somebody whos not afraid to get on her knees and hug children, but you see she doesnt lose her power by doing that. Shes someone whos not afraid to look at a world of. Whether its Racial Injustice or economic injustice or whatever it is, and call that out and say, how are we going to find a new kind of form of justice . And i think, to me, she embodies someone whos a very strong woman, whos a very, very. I think one of the reasons people are so scared of her bare arms, to be honest, is because theyre. Theyre bare. Theres a vulnerability at the same time as this incredible strength, and to me, shes just. Shes a woman, you know . And to see that in that kind of leadership role, to me is very, very helpful. Hinojosa so i want to talk about you personal story, but before we get to that, lets talk. Because there are probably a lot of people who maybe have never seen the vagina monologues, dont know anything about what you created after the vagina monologues, which is something called vday. Lets start with the vagina monologues. You decided. You started talking to somebody about menopause. Right. Hinojosa a woman. Yep. Hinojosa and that led you to just Start Talking to a lot of women about their vaginas. Yeah. Hinojosa . And then you put it together in a play that had an extraordinary outpouring. It. How many countries has it played in now . 130. Hinojosa and its still. Where is it. Is it. Oh, its running. This year on vday there were 5,000 productions of it. I mean, its running all over the world. Its been running in paris and mexico city for ten years. Hinojosa i know, i was like, really . I know. Hinojosa nonstop. Yeah. Hinojosa so after. After the vagina monologues, you said one of the things that happened was that you had a lot of women coming and talking to you not about feeling empowered about their sexuality; they were actually coming to you and sharing stories of abuse. Mmhmm. Hinojosa . Of sadness. And so then what did you decide to do with all of those stories . Well, i think when i did the show, it brought up so much stuff for women. And at first, i thought, this will be great. Women will share their wonderful sex lives, their great orgasms, and. No. What happened was. Hinojosa literally, you were thinking that . You were like. No, i was thinking, ill get new stories; it will be. And what happened was 95 of the women and they would literally line up after the show with this kind of desperation 95 were there to tell me theyd been raped, theyd been incested, theyd been beaten, theyd been mutilated. It was overwhelming. Hinojosa and you were totally not expecting that. Well, i knew there was violence against women. Im a survivor i knew. But i. I had no idea of the epidemic proportions. I had no idea of the centrality of it. I had no idea how. How many women; the Global Nature of it. That has been the huge awakening, and as i said to a friend of mine who works on this issue as well yesterday, its the thing thats in the center of everything its the big story that no one wants to talk about. I was in prison yesterday with women who ive been working with for a long time. I hadnt seen them in a while. You know, 95 of women in prisons are there because of violence against women women who are homeless, women who cant hold jobs and we can go down the list women who are depressed, women who are having diseases, women who cant stay in relationships, women who end up being batterers or are abusive to their children. If you really look back, you will see women who were raped as children, who were incest as children, and by the way, i think its going to end up being true about men, as well. I think, if we really want to look at whats going on with men and why. And not every man, by any means, is a perpetrator. I would say most men are not perpetrators. The problem is the men who arent perpetrators dont stand up to speak out to their brothers and fathers and uncles and sons who are perpetrators. Hinojosa and say things, for example, when they are in a conversation, they dont stop them and say, dont talk like that around me. Exactly. Hinojosa dont use that terminology. Exactly. They dont break the brotherhood. They dont risk losing their stature and their power in the circle of men. And i think one of the things thats really important is that we help everybody begin to identify how traumatized they are. Men are traumatized and humiliated and ashamed, and what they do is they become more violent, and they become more macho, and they become more proving, you know, how sure of themselves they are. Women are. End up, often, on the end of that. And i dont want to demonize anyone. I think when i started this movement, you know. Years ago, being a survivor, i had a lot of my own anger and a lot of. At my father, at, you know, at men in general. I dont feel that anymore. I feel were all in this struggle together. I want men to be with us; i want men to own this issue; i want men to see this is theirs so that we work in partnership to stop the violence, you know . Hinojosa so eve, you wanted to focus on men, but actually, right after the vagina monologues, you really focused in on women by creating vday. There are probably some people who are watching this who are saying, vday; what is that . Well, it began, actually. Once i discovered all this violence, i was going to stop doing the vagina monologues, because i felt immoral to see all these women expressing and telling their stories, and not intervening on their behalf. So in 1998, i got a group of friends together and i said, look, i have this play. How could we use this play to stop violence against women . Not manage it; not contain it; but end it . And we came up with this idea of vday, which was valentines day, vagina day, ending violence against women day. And we said, well do one event in new york, and well ask every great actor we know, and see if theyll, you know, perform. And, you know, we asked everyone from rosie perez to glenn close to Susan Sarandon to whoopi everybody said, yes, it was. Not everybody, two people didnt. But we did this we did this performance, and it rocked new york. 2,500 people came; you could just feel the earth move. And really, from that point to now, which is 11 years ago, this movement has just taken off. And, you know, i look back 11 years ago, we were in one city, you know, one event. Its now 11 years later; this year there were 1,400 places in the world that did 5,000 events. We raised 70 million. Hinojosa wow . And thats all happened through grassroots activists in their local communities standing up, finding their vagina warrior power to end violence and take back their bodies. And, you know, i wish you could see some of these women who have been doing the show and doing, you know, vday for maybe five years theyre fierce, and theyre loving, and theyre funny, and theyre sexy, and theyre alive, and theyre into pleasure, and theyre running for office. And theyre, you know. And theyre coming into power in a whole new kind of way. Hinojosa well, i guess this leads us into your own story. You were growing up in, what you like to call a wonderfully secure, suburban america scarsdale, new york; white picket fence, the whole thing. Literally. Hinojosa literally. But there wasnt a lot of dialogue about what was happening behind that white picket fence. No, and i think thats the sham, right . Thats the sham. You know, inside my house, you know, i had a father who was, like, a corporate president , and meanwhile, he was violent; he was a perpetrator. My life was completely violent, you know . Hinojosa from the time that you were five. Mmhmm. Hinojosa . To ten. Well, five to ten was the sexual violation, and then that continued in the form of physical violence until i left. And if i look at my life, i really was a consequence of violence. Like, everything about my life was determined by violence in some fundamental way. So i was crazy. Hinojosa but you werent talking about it, right . Nobody was talking about it. Nobody was talking about it. I had to act like everything was happy and, you know, i was privileged , and white, and everything was beautiful. And meanwhile, i was destroyed inside and i became crazy with drugs, and crazy. Very promiscuous, and very wild, very young, very self destructive. I wanted to be dead. I was on a very, very suicidal trajectory. Hinojosa and what were you doing. I mean, when you knew that you, kind of, had this history but you werent talking about it. Burying it. Burying it. Burying it. Because, you know, as i said to a friend of mine the other day, to tell your story, you risk the end of your family. You know, its kind of. I have a good friend who used to say to me, its either your integrity or your family, you know . Hinojosa thats a really hard choice. Its really hard. You. To tell the truth, often it means you will be exiled from the tribe. It doesnt matter whether its talking about the palestinian israeli conflict; whether your talking about any kind of truth that is real, you will be exiled from some club, some tribe, some form, and that means you have to essentially live your life from that point on as a nomad, which im very happy with now. Like, i am a vagina nomad traveling the planet, and i am happy. But early on, to risk the loss of that feels like the end of your life; and thats why its so difficult for so many women to come forward and tell the truth. Like in the congo, where were spending. Hinojosa you are. Have now spent a lot of time there. I remember you talking about the fact that you felt like bosnia was a place where you needed to be, and now it feels like you need to be in the democratic republic of congo. You have spent so much time there; youve testified in front of congress. Why has the congo now become such an important part of your life . Well, you know, its funny. This morning i got an email early this morning about a little girl whos three her name is chantel who was on her way to the hospital. She had been raped by a gang. Hinojosa she was three years old. Yeah. Hinojosa . And raped. By a gang, and she died on the way to the hospital. Now, just imagine what kind of rape that has to be to murder you. When i first heard the stories from the congo from an extraordinary man named dr. Mukwege, i literally couldnt believe it. Like, i have been in bosnia, ive been in afghanistan, ive been in haiti; ive been in some pretty rough places where theres enormous violence, but maria, whats going on in the congo. And its an economic war. It is fueled by the wests need for coltan and other minerals which actually fuel our cell phones, fuel our computers. So basically, its the west, again, doing a kind of economic colonialism which is plundering the minerals of the congo. And the way that happens is that the militias go in and they rape and destroy the communities, the communities flee, and they take over the mines. Hinojosa so if. If someone like you, whos not an expert political scientist or an ambassador per se you know it easy; youve just explained it in a minute where is the resistance to moving forward . Well, it is a huge question. Look, the conflict in the congo has been going on for 12 years; six Million People have died six million. It is estimated that probably between 200,000 and 500,000 women have been raped and tortured, okay . In bosnia, that conflict happened and within two years, those rape camps you know, it was estimated 20,000 to 40,000 it was stopped. White women, eastern europe. Were talking about. I have to say it. Like, having now campaigned for two years on this, and you really hear the most horrendous, horrific stories of my life to the point where i dont really sleep very much anymore, because once those kind of stories enter you, and you feel the people, and you hug the people, and you hold the girls, and you hug. Theyre in your soul forever. Theyre in your soul forever. Why isnt the world responding . Why . What is stopping. And i can only believe, on some level, that its racism; that we have an attitude towards black people in particular and black women in particular that somehow, the destinies of African Women have already been decided, do you know . Theyve already been written off, you know . People in the congo, well, thats. Thats the heart of darkness. Thats. I think its actually the heart of racism. I think its. The people in the congo are some of the most beautiful, Extraordinary People i have ever met. And that country is central to africa it is central to the heartbeat of africa. To have allowed, as an international community, this kind of level of atrocity to go on for this long is on all our backs. Its on all our heads, particularly when were using cell phones that have that kind of blood on them. Hinojosa but im sure that there are some people, eve, who hear you and they think, it just sounds too overwhelming, and im not even sure if i even want to hear the stories, if eve, who goes there and is in the country and comes back and cant sleep because shes hearing this. What about women and men who just say, its too much, its too big, its too far, its too overwhelming, and i cant. Its a really good question, and heres what i have to say look, i dont see the world as such a big, huge i see it as a very small world. Everything each one of us does impacts somebody at some moment, whether we use our cell phones and that colton is here. Were all so interconnected now. You cant say, its too much for me to bear, because if it were happening to you, how would you feel if other people said, its too much to bear . You know, when i went to afghanistan in the 1990s and i saw what the taliban was doing to women, i came back and i had, literally, a video that the revolutionary association of the women of afghanistan had taken under their burkas, where they documented the atrocities in a stadium where a woman was shot in her head for flirting. I brought that to every. Hinojosa for flirting . For flirting. I brought that back and i took that to every media outlet in america, and you know what they said to me . No one cares about the women of afghanistan. I said, listen to me. You better care, because when you see something that is that immoral and is ending rights so severely, you know it will impact you eventually. Look what happened 9 11. I will say the same thing about the congo. If we, as human beings, allow this kind of atrocity to happen to our sisters and brothers anywhere in the world, it will eventually impact all of us. Its already impact all of us even if we pretend we dont know it in our consciousness, do you know . I remember, in the reagan years, when there were many, many Homeless People on the street and i was already involved with nuclear disarmament; working all these issues and i just couldnt deal with Homeless People. It was like, i cant take it in. And my friend kept saying to me, i want you to come to this shelter; i want you. I kept saying, i dont want to, because once this door opens, i know. But i got progressively depressed, because every time i would walk past a homeless person, id have to shut some part of myself off, so my energy was getting. And then one day, i finally went to the shelter, and i met the women, and i sat with the women, and you know what . I felt pain but i felt alive, because i was in connection with them; and my energy came back, and my. And thats what i would say to people. You know, yes, its painful to feel other peoples pain, but it also is the road to your own life force; the road to your own humanity which is the only thing that gives us any kind of life. Hinojosa so what happens, eve, though and i love the fact that you talk about the fact that you say, look, i live with this darkness. Sometimes i cry on an hourly basis, other days are great days when you feel entirely empowered. But what happens when you leave these countries . When you come in, you open the door theres talk. These women are able to unload, but then you leave. But i dont leave. I mean, vday doesnt leave. I mean, one of the. I think the great things about the movement is that vday is women everywhere. Right now, we now have vday congo where we are in partnership with many, many local groups on the ground who are really motivating the vday movement and motivating the Campaign Women who have been working there forever to empower women and stop the rapes, and im coming late to the party. We now are opening a huge facility called the city of joy, which will be for women survivors to turn pain to power, to create leaders. Weve created a Massive Campaign all through the congo through eastern congo and all over the world. If you go on the vday website youll see the vwall for congo, where women and men across the planet have written letters and sent in pictures for the women that just got printed and put up on the walls of the hospital in bukavu, where all the rape survivors are. So we dont leave. There isnt one country, because vday is the local women. Its not like were somebody outside the country coming in vday only exists if women in the country take the movement and make it theirs. Hinojosa and what happens to these women who are then in their countries, kind of opening this up . They get powerful, and more powerful, and right now, weve done. Theyve done breaking the silence events there, where theyve told their stories publicly. Were just about to do another event in kinshasa. Theres been mad, powerful street demonstrations. I predict to you, in three to five years, theyll be a major Womens Movement that will take over the congo, if we keep going. I do. I think itll happen. The women are so fierce and theyre so resilient, and all they need is a little support to direct their own destinies, to take agency over their bodies, over their countries, and they will turn that country around. Hinojosa so tell me, eve, how do you handle it . I mean, you take all this stuff in; youre managing amazing projects, youre in the prisons youre also working with women in prison youre traveling. What do you do with it all . You know. Hinojosa i mean, you said you dont sleep, which worries me. Well, sometimes i dont sleep. Sometimes. You know. Im an emotional. You know, i have a new book called i am an emotional creature the secret life of girls around the world im an emotional creature. I. My life, you know. I have days when im wildly happy, and i have hours where like this morning i was on the phone with chantel whos three years old, who didnt make it to the. Hospital. I was just. Destroyed. But you let that move through you and you let yourself. You let yourself be connected to the river of humanity, and swimming in that. I swim that river, you know . I want to be in that river; i dont want to be outside the river. I dont want to live in a mall. I dont want to live, you know, with things that protect me from human beings. This is what were here to do; to engage with each other, and sometimes thats a glorious process. Sometimes my heart feels so much pain for whats going on in the congo or in haiti or afghanistan. Sometimes i see the victories of women. You know, were seeing incredible victories of women all over the world who are having rights change, or having laws change, or coming into power. Hinojosa so theres progress for you . Theres incredible progress look, people. You know, when the floggings happened in pakistan a few months ago, within 24 hours there was everyone online here, there and the government, 48 hours later, stepped in. That didnt happen eight years ago, ten years ago. There is incredible progress happening. We have huge movements. There were 5,000 vdays this year thats a lot of vdays. Hinojosa okay, so heres what i want you to leave our audience with. Imagine that theres a young woman or a girl who is having. You know, who needs to break; who needs to tell the truth. What does she do . I think she finds one person she can trust in her community, and she tells her story because when you tell your story, thats the beginning. When you hear your story, when you know your story, when you manifest your story in a way that makes you exist. So much of what violence does is end our existential reality and rob us of meaning and existence, and i think, for young girls, its so important that they tell their stories and they find a community of girls in which theyre safe enough to tell those stories and then transform those stories. Hinojosa eve ensler, thank you for telling your story, and for transforming all of us. Thank you. Hinojosa continue the conversation at wgbh. Org oneonone. Captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org [narrator] funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by the Alice Kleberg Reynolds Foundation and hillco partners, a texas Government Affairs consultancy. And by klrus producer circle, ensuring local programming that reflects the character and interests of the greater austin, texas community. Im evan smith, hes a James Beard Award winning chef and celebrated restaurateur best known outside the kitchen for his regular appearances on chopped, top chef, and other irresistible foodie reality shows. His new collection of mouthwatering multicultural recipes, the red rooster cookbook the story of food and hustle in harlem has just been published. Hes marcus samuelsson, this is overheard. applause lets be honest, is this about the ability to learn, or is this about the experience of not having been taught properly . How have you avoided what has befallen other nations in africa . To say that he made his own bed, but you caused him to sleep in it
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