Transcripts For CSPAN2 In Depth With Herb Boyd 20170702 : co

is brought to you today by your cable or satellite provider. >> and now on booktv, we are live with author, journalist and history professor herb boyd, professor boyd who teaches at the city college of new york and writes a column for new york amsterdam news is of the author or editor of many books including "autobiography of a people," and his latest black "k detroit: a people's history of self-determination." >> host: author herb boyd with us on this independence day weekend. professor boyd, what is july 4 me deal? >> guest: it means the same thing what it meant to frederick douglass, you know. while you can have the general celebration and everything, we have a different perspective from the african-american community. this was a long history to understand exactly the distinction in terms of the celebration for one community and the kind of lack of observers on the other part of the community. what does it mean to people who have a history of bondage, history of segregation, a history of jim crow is him. you have to understand that kind of sensitivity that might be distinct from one community to another. obviously when you start talking about this history of this country and the role of african-americans in terms of providing that celebration, that's a whole other question. because we been in the forefront of the so-called battle for freedom, justice and liberty in this country from day one, from day one. going back to chris come in terms of the so-called boston massacre, since that moment, and you can look at it across the years, the matter what kind of incident or what kind of turmoil or conflict or battle or world war that this country was involved in, you found the contribution of african-americans. certainly frederick douglass was saying at that time, he says what does it mean to the slave in this country, your so-called celebration? we always had to keep that might in terms of how we approach this particular holiday. >> host: in your autobiography of the people book, i think you sit in there that 5000 african-americans fought in the revolutionary war. >> guest: exactly. and some of those, most aerobically i always think about one of the individuals that stand out, of course solomon, peter salem, peter blackman, basel lulu stanza because he was a flute player in terms of you always see this here image of the revolutionary war where three people are marching to drum, the flute player. at that time a five player come so wha else holding a black and everything. well, that player babel could've been basel lulu engines of the conservation that he made providing the kind of musical inspiration and that those been a part of our struggle in this country, almost inseparable for the people who were wielding the guns and going out to battle picky look at the civil war, if you look at the civil rights movement, too. there again the music is very important. but here is the vectoring the revolutionary. who is providing the kind of instrumentation, the martial music of that day as well as picking up again at some point so you actually write in terms of the contribution not only from an army standpoint but also in the naval situation. they were black naval participants in that wore the same time. so that's the beginning. at the beginning in terms of understanding this whole history, the odyssey, the evolution of participation of blacks in the military in this country. >> host: there are two separate issues going on in the u.s.? >> guest: i think that's always been true, peter. almost from the beginning and i think when you look at it from the origins of the country and going back to the first africans that was brought here and understanding the treatment that they received, the distinction i would always understand like the indentured servants who were brought in, the whole 1619 and going back to the mayflower compact of 1620. look at the history of black people in the state of new york and particularly in the summer of new york, even in detroit for that matter because like a microcosm of the history of black people, and understanding these two separate societies are being shaped, and at very dramatic moment in our history that separation is sharpened by conflict. we can talk about it in terms of the rebellion of 1967. we could talk about the kerner report of 1968 when it begins to talk about these two societies out there, one black and one white moving almost inevitably toward the conflict that is cratered and the tensions, the. >> host: becomes as result of those distinctions, the kind of separate treatment, the restricted covenants, the unemployment, the lack of unemployment opportunities for african american people. all of this year adds into this here notion of two separate communities, two separate societies, almost two separate countries that we have inside of these united states of america. so there is that kind of separation that's almost from the beginning, and whether or not we can ever kind of mollified that and bring the securities together, well, that's what we've struggling about over the years in terms of from the emancipation days right on down to the current situation where we look at the differences in the treatment of african-americans particularly from a police department in this country. >> host: herb boyd come in your book black panthers for beginners coheres of the dedication. to the fallen panthers who dared to challenge what other worlds most oppressive government. >> guest: the black panther party is almost emblematic of this here resistance, the reluctance to go along with the status quo, to speak out, to speak truth to power, to pick up a gun even, to do something about the oppression that they were experiencing. the black panthers from the beginning was a very interesting development for me because it was working with lance come an opportunity for us to graphically present other than the kind of academic stuff that had been done over the years. lance was illustrative of the book, and he did a remarkable job of capturing the kind of, the role of the panthers. what i try to do with the narration is kind of mesh the kind of graphic interpretation that he had in mind, and we went back and forth on that, but at last i think he just demonstrated an ability to absorb the kind of imagery that it presented that an emory douglas had also who was the graphic artist, who was the eldest should come who was at the kind of cultural commissar of the black panther party at that time. so what we're trying to do there is kind to give another prescriptive on some of the treatises and the memoirs and, of course, they're just absolutely, their endless beginning with bobby seale and human newton and eldridge cleaver and kathleen cleaver, all these individuals, erika huggins, that put our books about the panther party. so really it's just our contribution to that, but giving it another angle in terms of particularly for young readers out there who are just being introduced to the panther. here's way because many of them are coming out of their visual experience counseling is an opportunity for us to give you kind of visual representation of the black panther party. >> host: i think some people may take with you referring to the u.s. as one of the world's most oppressive governments try to which one? >> host: in your dedication, you dedicate it to the panthers who dared to challenge one of the world's most oppressive governments. >> guest: yeah, well, i think we are talking about one of the world's most oppressive governments. that was certainly their perspective on it. that's how they did it come at d the move with that particular understanding. so i don't argue with their particular interpretation. i tried find out what t did they mean in terms of how did they deliver, what was the reaction to this oppressive government. the reaction across the country was a very violent. , probably one of the most violent times in our nation's history in terms of what is happening out of the african-american community. and voicing their resistance. this is an outrage, and outcry coming from them here sometimes i guess in terms of expressing our resistance it takes on these very violent turns, and that's not the first time. we have many, many elements of black people fighting back. that's pretty much a kind of untold story about african-american history. the whole sense of resistance, the idea that we kind of just went along with the way things were. no way. i have come in my study of african american and american history, i've kind of highlighted some of the moments in which that resistance took a very, very violent forms. of course with the black panther party, that was the most traumatized aspect of it. television is available. you have these charismatic individuals, the whole presentation that they had, the swagger, the address, the black beret, wearing a leather jackets and everything. they kind of our marching a very different beat. we talk about marshaling a resistance against this oppressive society that you're talking about. so that was at their perspective on it, peter. we may have argued with it. they were different organizations out there who had different strategies, proposing to bring kind of tactics as well as philosophical and ideological approaches to that oppressive society. but they wanted to dramatize it in such a way that sometimes even saying that out of the barrel of the gun, picking up the whole redbook that they did on point, the mousey tongue approach to. that was a revolutionary practice -- mousey tongue -- it was not unique for the black panthers party figures kind of all overcome is a universal, a global expression of resistance. they picked it up. the winds have changed come is blowing across the african continent. kind of liberation movements of emotion there. fight against portuguese colonialism for example, to fight against was going on in south africa or what was happening in other parts of the continent, algeria, though algerian revolution. so those kind of things were in the air so we picked it up, gained the same cut a say in terms of moving against this oppressive society. that chapter do it in a mile away because it's a john brown said that the way you can purge the land with a blood. >> host: where the panthers natural heir to marcus garvey? >> guest: not exactly. what you have to understand, i think they were more than natural errors of malcolm x. and there's a connection there. very interesting because you have to get to malcolm and going back for a get to marcus. because malcolm, his parents were garvey -ites, right? and they picked from being members of the u.n. a comment universal negro improvement association, the whole movement at that time that grew up of the 1900 \20{l1}s{l0}\'20{l1}s{l0} more or less. because at one point in 1922 u.s. almost like 6 million members of the garvey movement are here in this country and across the caribbean in particular. so that's really the connection the panthers have is with malcolm x because malcolm was assassinated in february 211965. the panther party came into existence almost like a year later, you know, and october of 1966, boom, it was fully blown out in oakland california other although many people feel also elements of it develop right in harlem. so that was a certain kind of energy and inspiration, influence, tactically that they picked up from malcolm x. so if there's any kind of direct connection between the panthers and any precedent, thinker or movement, there would probably be, probably be malcolm x. >> host: in your collection of essays about malcolm x, "by any means necessary" we live in a short memory culture, white supremacy is the system that dominates black life from cradle to grave. therefore, black life is seldom formally taught in our institutions and even less discussed informally. >> guest: he is absolutely right. i should also add without particular publication is that i have others with me. then i got three doctors here with me, i had to keep those doctors with me. and believe the book is a reaction to the very, very controversial biography of malcolm x. we put our heads together on that and said something had to be said to counter some of the conclusions that manny had reached in his book. so what it happened, i read something like 75 reviews, and i approached the other three coeditors of their and propose the idea, of course the book is published by third world press, and so he was very, very, something has to be done because we are kind of the sons of malcolm. we figure that what he had his say, what man had to say and, of course, you know i love manny and i really stood right with him across the years but we have some differences we came to his interpretation. we figured last expressing her rather than personal expressing why do we round up all of these different other thinkers about it. and for the most part it's people who are taking a position to what manny had to say in so many respects. it may not be there at this point to try to summarize exactly what's happening with that. that was a very, very complicated and very involved process in terms of understanding what manny was saying, what are reacting to? what are some the problems that he presented? when you've got some 35 different writers there and for the most part they are counted those against what manny has to say, of course we bring some in there who support them, too, try to some kind of balance. but what he is talking about is that we have an absence in terms of comity goes back to black studies, celebration of black studies, peter, is that we were saying some things back in the 1960s that we were not being properly reflected in the education system, to curriculums and what have you in this country. something had to be done about that. and we all grew out of the period in which black studies was very pivotal in terms of educating and getting a perspective and understanding and analysis, a very critical analysis of what was going on from an educational standpoint in this country. and he had been like a superb teacher. a superb publisher, a magnificent poet. it was really basically his idea that picked up and made this project work for us. so i felt very comfortable in having anything he proposed in terms of analysis about society. i just talked to him the other day and the whole projects he's involved with now in terms of dealing with adult trump administration. so that continues that same type of legacy and desire to bring about change in our society. >> host: and "by any means necessary" came out in 2012, and con hasse coats before he wrote his national book award-winning book has an essay in there as well. >> well, you mean in terms of the american book award? >> host: national book award, right. but you have an essay in here. >> guest: my goodness, what a remarkable young man, you know. you have to go back and read his essay in terms of how he deals in very kind of like a balanced approach to it. ta-nehisi book between, that's been a phenomenal thing out there, put him right out there on front street you might say. and rightly so. i think he's a very, very cogent, very insightful commentator on the times and he think he captured the spirit particularly for the next generation that's coming along, picking up some things that some of the older folks, the eldest put forward in that particular publication. i know his father very well, paul, was a publisher black classic press. over the years of course he's a former panther hensel. talk about the black panther party. paul was a member. we say the fruit never falls that far from the tree, and ta-nehisi has picked up a number of the elements of the previous generation and incorporated into his understanding of what's happening right now in our society. and it was always just a joy to work with him. i mean, he blurb black detroit for me, so we have this continuing relationship and i have tremendous respect for him and what he is doing out there. they kind of threw him into i think some of the other people who began to see them as the second coming, you know, of james baldwin, i don't know if that's absolute therefore him, he kind of disavows it to a certain extent, but i know what they are saying. they are saying we finally have someone who has the same sensibility, that same sensitivity in terms of what we are as a people. and what needs to be said, what needs to be done, you know, speak truth to power. i think he carries on that tradition. he has a similar eloquence. he has a similar perspective assert analysis, at the same time, command of words that's very important because that's what baldwin was. he lived in the whole command about literature and how to present that in such a way that it could resonate for just the ordinary person out there, but also for those academics out there who require all a bit moe in terms of your presentation. so it's kind of strike a nice balance between what you call the street folks who can connect up with some of those ideas at the same time some of the academics who really demand a little bit more rigor and intellectual inquiry. >> host: herb boyd, he wrote a biography of james baldwin, came out in 2008, baldwins harlan victor seems to be a resurgence in discussions and the reputation of james baldwin. is that fair? >> guest: no doubt about it. no matter where you look you have baldwin. i was looking at sonya sotomayor who is one of our jurists, the supreme court, and she was quoting james baldwin. there's a film that made the rounds called i'm not your negro, very fine homemaker, the study did on -- significantly important. i had an opportunity to address that particular film at, in pittsburgh at the film and arts festival to talk about the significance of baldwin again, you know, the fire next time. they have like 304 publications out there that kind of play off the title of james baldwin from that variance. those essays, pituitary essays that comprise the fires next time, is baldwin had his magisterial best. this is the epitome of james baldwin in terms of addressing the kind of inequities that exist in our society. this is superb, supreme baldwin i understand people going back and revisiting that in the 1963 publication but it's eternal. it won't go away. and baldwin walk away because his words are so prophetic. he was getting with the situation at this time and there were a number of problems and issues, some of the same permit concerns we have today that he addressed back then. so that's why his words have meaning today because the issues that he addressed continue to be very, very apart and germane to our days. whether you're looking at it from a legal standpoint, of sotomayor, if you're talking about a filmmaker, or you talk about even a number of academis and journalists who met last year in paris that had this major conference and dissected baldwin in a number very relevant ways i think, looking at his novels, looking at his nonfiction, looking at his poetry and looking at his drama which is often overlooked in terms of the playwright, baldwin the playwright. so whether it's the poet, the playwright, the public what you might call the public clarion out there, a voice for the people, whether you're talking about the profit from any one of those words with baldwin. so we can understand that he was speaking and addressing issues of his time that i've not gone away. that's what you can find younger people, l long now who are picking up on it and kind of what you call mixed taping and sampling, you know, baldwins words into their particular creative endeavors. i think that speaks to the kind of power that he had in terms of perception. not only his personal life but what it meant for us as a people in this country. he was one who i would feel that exemplary, you know, about feelings. we had an articulate voice who could address this issue in such a way that it continues to resound today, peter. people still plucking off baldwin in so many ways. so you're absolutely right in terms of how omnipresent he continues to be from a prophetic and a literary standpoint. >> host: you met him. >> guest: oh, yeah, i had a couple of opportunities to be with james back in the day, back in the day. i remember one evening escorting him home. my good friend is attorney robert it was just a phenomenal filmmaker. he did two films, two documentaries on the struggles against portuguese colonialism that one was called -- the struggle continues, and the other one was called the people organize. and we did i think it was at hunter college. we had this year a big fundraiser out there for the mozambique project. and baldwin wasn't invited guest come and i sat right next to them. after it was all over, robert want to be to escort him home, and i said hey, i relish that opportunity. so that was the only real opportunity other than being in the audience and listening and being absolutely engrossed with what he had to say. but an opportunity to walk with him and asking him some concerns about and discuss some things with a of course i was absolutely terrified walking with such a supreme intellectual. but he was not the kind of individual. he was like basic down-home, smoking his cigarettes and bone boom, boom chapter diverse. he was ready to spend on just that everything under the sun. so those are just quick moment i had with him. of course for the most part being in the audience i remember he came to detroit, must've in 1980, to speak at some conference do with linguistics. that's when the whole ebonics thing was going on and i remember being there with doctor smitherman, we just absolutely just enthralled hearing him talk about the imports of ebonics. in other words, a black language, there is such a thing picky begin to break it out and specify exactly what he meant by that. it was another longer essay that he produced out there, but those opportunities of being in his presence, that magnetism, charisma that he presented are being destined to live with all these days. >> why did he move to france, and often did he return to the u.s.? >> guest: he left, first of all, he left harlem. he was 18 years of age, and by the time he's like in 1948 when he's like boom, he's already gone through a certain period of developing his writing style. he started with doing book reviews. a lot of writers start that way, you know, and, of course, richard wright, ralph ellison, to say nothing of a number of the white writers at that time, including faulkner and henry wickham all of those were part of his purview in terms of dealing with how do you develop yourself as a writer? so here's someone who was born in 1924 in harlem, and by the time he's 24, in 1948, boom, he's out of this country. he's on his way to another country, you might say. you read through some of the reasons, he has explained that and the number of his own writings of essays but also other biographers have picked up on that same issue to understand exactly why did you leave this country and why did you choose france at that time rex i think he was evolving in that way, if you go back to his early years, coming-of-age in harlem and going to do with high school in the bronx and being under the influence of like -- one of his teachers and taught in french. that whole inculcation in terms of the connection to france and to french culture, literature and language came through county. county, very fine poet coming out of the harlem renaissance. i speculate in baldwins harlem that that might have been the seed that was pounded -- played a very early on. and then reading as he did come he was a voracious reader. both french and otherwise. and then at that time you have different cultural developments going on in europe. france, given his background, baldwins background with french literature, language and what have you, that seem to be a good place to go in terms of expressing and find the kind of space to be liberated and a sense, although is going to discover that is going to be some restrictions, circumscribed in certain kind of way when he arrives in france. because there is another culture. united begin to adjust and adapt to that culture, but it did afford them in a very private way because the whole writing process, a very private affair, so here's an opportunity going somewhere where you are not definitely with the culture of the language at so you have a certain isolation, there more isolation we goes off to switzerland, become even more isolated. at those moments give him an opportunity for expression. you cannot get necessarily out there involved in the communities you did back in the states. so it afforded him an opportunity to kind of really be introspective. and in doing so he came out with his first novel, he had been working on for a number of years and that god to all kinds of different transformations before he finally arrived as go tell on the mound 1953-54. and it exploded out there in such a way that, i think he was happily ready for that and another when he was kind of surprised, like wow come here it is but let me fully take advantage of it. so with the publication of that and the kind of notoriety and the publicity and the recognition that he received, he had to come back turkey had to come back. and in doing so we are going to see that over the years it's going to be this going back and forth. until the last of the civil rights movement arrives anything that's when he begins to become a little bit more involved in what's happening in this country. because many people thought that he had been like disconnected. he had been gone too long but he really didn't understand what was happening in this country. of course there is no real truth to that. he had his hand on the pulse of the matter where he was, because he was a communicator. we are beginning to get some medicine at the rhino because all of his letters have been turned over to the schomburg center. and in those letters you get an idea that not only was expressing himself to own creative endeavors as a playwright, a poet, novelist but he also was this your letter writer. he wrote all kind of letters to all kinds of individuals out there. so it's good to go to the schomburg eventually take a look at all those letters and get an understanding of how he was in touch, what was going on in this country, and then at last with the civil rights movement jumped off in full-blown form yet to come back to be a part of it, particularly the march in washington in 1963. >> host: herb boyd, what was your connection or is your connection to malcolm his family? >> guest: i need a drink of water on that one. >> host: you go right ahead. while you're doing that let me introduce the program to our viewers. this is booktv at c-span2's monthly program where we invite one author on to document his or her body of work. this month it is author and professor and historian herb boyd. mr. boyd has written many books beginning in 1994, african history for beginners 1995 black panthers for beginners cannot hurt down the glory road also came out in 1995, contributions of african americans in u.s. history and culture. brother man which is been featured on booktv, the odyssey a black man in america, an anthology came out in 95. "autobiography of a people." he's editor of that book, race and resistance. african-american tentatively for 21st century came out in 2002 again served as editor. the harlem reader came out in 2003. we shall overcome, the history of the civil rights movement as it happened came out in 2004. heroes of america, part of that series martin luther king was professor boyd topic, 2005. "pound for pound" biography of sugar ray robinson came out in 2005 as well. baldwins harlem which we talked about just a bit, a biography of james baldwin 2008. civil rights yesterday and today, he's a co-author of the which came out in 2010. "by any means necessary," coeditor of those essays, the diary of malcolm x again and coeditor 2013, and his most recent book "black detroit: a people's history of self-determination." that just came out this year. if as a boyd would be with for the next two and a half hours to take your calls and your comments about our discussion today. here's how you can get in contact with us. (202)748-8200. if you live in the mountains and pacific time zone 748-8201. if you can't get you on the phone lines as to want to make a comment we have some ways via social media that you can do so. beginning with facebook, facebook.com/booktv. you will see a short video of professor boyd posted there. you can make your comment underneath that. you can also send a tweet at the booktv is our twitter handle and finally you can send an e-mail to booktv at c-span.org. we will cycle through and put those numbers back up and the social media addresses so you can see them. if you'd like to make it, we will begin taking those in just a little while. now, our boy to come back to the question. your connection to malcolm x and his family. >> guest: my goodness. without malcolm i don't think i would be sitting here with you. his assassination was almost like, some extent, my birth, political birth. although i had been associated with him very early on, like 20 years of age. i made them for the first time in detroit. because at the time i was in and around several friends and relatives who were members of the nation of islam. and they were very interested in the understanding what the organization was all about, and coaching me in teaching me and bring me all kind of literature and everything. you know, i'm just 20 years of age at this point and just a high school graduate and i had been to college. and just involved in a whole work community. my idea like million people in detroit at that time, when you graduate from high school come your dream was to get a job in one of those automobile factories. get you the job, due to a car, you know, tool around the community, maybe get the girlfriend and, you know what i'm saying. and then buy the house and raised the family and all those kinds of things, but i met these individuals out there, i guess you could say i was always interested in the people who were kind of the nonconformist, people who were the outsiders raising some kind of issues and saying some different things about life. and i was attracted to them. the next thing i know i'm involved in going to the meetings and everything, and i had an opportunity to go to a couple of sessions when malcolm came into detroit to speak at the mosque on lynwood. and i was absolutely blown away. i mean, it was just amazing to hear the kinds of, the eloquence and the analysis that he provided at that time. so i said okay, that's it for me, i'm going to be done all the time. so each time malcolm came to towcount i would go to the mosq, ticket with a friend of mine who live right around the corner, lloyd, who i just came out of jackson. change and he was a member and he convinced me to come on and join the nation of islam. so after about a year and half of that, as a matter fact i took off in 1960 and moved to new york city for about a year and a half, and i lived in the village and in brooklyn and everything, and only indirectly connected with malcolm in those days because i was struggling trying to survive, get a job and everything. but now and then periodically i would go to harlem and here malcolm speaking up in the harlem community. and kind of resuming my connection with him but not in a concrete way. because i was more or less at the time involved in the literature in the village where i was saying at with individuals like pop coffman and bob thompson and ted jones. of course barack is back in those days, leroy joint was living in a village then, but they were like what i would call my idols at that time in terms of my own literary aspirations. i want to write the great american novel, and so i look to them as inspiration and examples of how to move. they kind of embrace me in a way. malcolm was like this voice i was hearing and say you won't go away because like echoing but unlike connected more immunity with these other writers at the because that's where my aspirations were there at that point. but anyway the army was chasing me and i let him catch me and i went into the service in 1962 when i was just on the precipice because of return to detroit, and floyd again is right around the corner and he said herb, boom, boom. i said okay okay i'll go ahead and join the nation of islam. just as i was going to all the process the army grabbed me up. almost had option when you go the nation of islam and say i'm conscientious objector and all that, or join the army and see the world. just always that adventurous spirit that i had to think i inherited from her mother, the kind of like get out of there and see the world, the army offered me that opportunity. i went off into the service. even so, malcolm stayed on my mind, and i remember it was in 1964, and i was stationed outside of frankfort germany about 20 clicks, kilometers from frankfort. and i got word, and do not sure at this moment whether my mother had told me to one of her letters or to a newspaper article she had sent me or have picked it up in terms of reading the various international newspapers in germany, but heard that malcolm was going to be traveling across north africa to morocco going to casablanca your when i heard about that, i said i've got to go see malcolm. so many of the gis at that time are going north to denmark, going to stockholm, going to sweden and copenhagen, my thing was to go south. i'm going to north africa, going to morocco. now i have really a purpose to do so, to try to hook up with malcolm. as a young man named ralph barnes in philadelphia, i convinced him to go with me. and ralph and i hitchhiked across germany, france, spain. i had a 32 daily so i said will take full advantage of it. ralph was right there with me and we can all the way down to all dissenters and we took this very across to tangiers, and when i arrived there, i had his village background i knew about that fat black pussy cat which is a bar where ted jones, i knew he owned or co-owned a bar or at least frequented a bar that was in tangiers called that fat black pussy cat. so that was our destination. we went straight to the fat black pussy cat and discovered that ted jones was a migratory bird. whenever the seasons change, he would switch. when time he would be where it was warm. otherwise, you know, but timbuktu as well as parts of tangiers is where he hung out. so we got there he wasn't there. so the part and toes there's a a place we can get upstairs room you can have on the fifth floor. we get what you call the top floor, you know, onto the roof, you know, this building. about 3:00 in the morning someone came in through the window and took ralph wallace and all his money and everything. everything. and i saw him run across the rooftop it it was too late to catch him, but ralph said that's enough for me. the next day -- how to find out information, how was he traveled traveling, will he be arriving at certain times. but it did my best to i said what are the greatest fear in tangiers. i stayed there the fall 30 some odd days and missed malcolm complete because i could not get a bead on what exactly where he was becoming a lid on i'm going to discover that certain other kind of things happening in his life that delayed that arrival. i tried to time in such way, but anyway i missed him there. i was going going to be some again, peter, february 14, 1965 or unpacking detroit now. i'm working at dodge main, the word that malcolm is coming to town, i'm all excited about that opportunity to see him again. but on that morning, two or 3:00 in the morning his house was firebombed east elmhurst endangering his life and his family and what have you. he was lucky to get out of there alive. and when the word got out early in the morning hours, i figured that there's 08 in the world he's going to come. with all this kind of turmoil and disaster. there's no way he's going to come to detroit. but malcolm, being a man of his word got on a plane at 9:00 that morning and flew to detroit to honor the obligation to speak at the auditorium, invited by the henry brothers who had their own recording company and everything and very much involved in a black nationalist movement. later on we'll hear more about them due to the republic of africa. but malcolm kane, and when i heard about that, i worked in the graveyard shift, you know, at dodger main. my cousin told me later on, he says men come you could smell the smoke only because he attended the event. he said you could smell the smoke on malcolm. he was able to gather from that tragedy disaster he had on them. that's all he could really recover from the house that was virtually destroyed. but here malcolm had arrived and gave one of the most important speeches of his life, one of the last major speeches that he delivered. he was going to do to others when he got back to new york i think at barnard college at colombian embassy but this was a import speech that he did. i missed it. i have two great disappointments in my life. i missed them in africa and missed him back in my hometown of detroit. and i continue to missing now in ways that are different from and even kind of physical i guess i miss him, his kind of intellectual guidance and so that's what i guess i returned to him in so many different ways in terms of exploring what he meant, not only to me but to the world. inviting me was one way to do. work with malcolm story was no way doing it. teaching a class, i teach a class at city college on the life and times of malcolm x pixel that's another way that i kind of stay in touch with him. in fact, when he first started teaching at wayne state university in 1967 the first book i use was the autobiography of malcolm x. it edges, two years before. so even in the beginning malcolm in my teaching career, malcolm was my guidance. he was my guide right there. his book is just so absolutely expressive of this country. so when i'm teaching a course now, the memories that i have going back to those days in the 1960s when i was close to him and just to meet him, after a speech at the box we would line up in the hallway and he would, and he would go down the aisle and shake everybody's hand. i remember when he got to me, my cousin can we talked about it before, he said i going to say anything? i going to essence of questions? let's ask him. when he got there i was absolutely intimidated, i just grabbed his big hand and that was it. he moved on down the line. i never had a chance to really have a one-on-one with them as i'm speaking to you. >> host: herb boyd, a double question. did you ever fully join the nation of islam? and biting me is necessary there's an essay in that says when he dropped out, that was his death sentence. >> guest: no. and terms of the actual joining of it, you know, going to the process, i had gone in till it all the papers. you have to go through a really a process with joining the nation of islam before you get the approval. that process was cut off because i went into the army. so was not completed i never got that, you know, my herb acts never came back to me that my intentions at the time was before i went into the army, to become a member. so some of the step after the said about your career, your life, you have to go through this, the correction to make sure people pick up things that even like they made me doctor boyd. i don't have a phd, i have a ph b. gets mixed up in terms of the transmission. certain things about my life, with a kind of make sure that we do the best we can to correct those things. so people don't get a misunderstanding about what you were and what you did. >> host: and when malcolm x left the nation of islam, why did you leave? >> guest: that's a very interesting question because you have two different understanding of the first, when she pushed out of the nation of islam, or did he voluntarily leave the nation of islam? it maybe like accommodation factor so often that happens that you have to say that it's part and parcel to some degree, he was pushed out into a great degree degree it was time for him to leave, you know? he says about on one occasion that, we're talking this is march of 1964 when he officially come he basically announced that he was no longer a member of the nation of islam. >> host: and he was dead within the year. >> guest: what happens is even before then, go back to 1963 with the assassination of jfk, that was pretty much at the beginning of the end as i see it, you know, that he had already began to move in a certain direction. as a matter fact, you go back one more year to 1962 when he got involved in the killing of one of the memos of the nation of islam at a los angeles california. to begin to express kind of a political outlet that was inconsistent with the general philosophy or theology of the nation of islam. we don't get the whole political scene. we are not involved, don't golf with the political scene whatsoever the malcolm was irrepressibly drawn to that. he felt a need to be actively involved out there. i think that the nation of islam at one point was a platform for that. and, but he talked of being in a straitjacket, a political straitjacket. he had to get out of that straitjacket. and when he said what he had to say about the chickens coming home to roost, ther have been a number of interpretations of that but for the most part i think he was beginning, malcolm beginning to declare his independence, beginning to say i'm going to say what it want to say, speak my heart and my mind about the particular issues of the day. he already had they can to raise some concerns about his idol in terms of the morality of what was happening with the life of elijah mohammed, possible, you know, in terms of the marital situation, the violations he had made there. so all of that process is pushing him more and more to the point of separation from the nation of islam. so i think it's really a combination of factors of been saying that it's time for him to go. am saying it's time for me to go. it's time for me to move onto something else. and what it is as a result of leaving, he indicates that he quickly began to put these different other formations, of course the travel in 1954 is probably the most eventful year of his life. a lot of it into 65 but he's only a couple months into 1965 before he stopped. he is taken from us. by 1964 after the march of 1964 down to january of 1965 was a significant part of malcolm stewart wrote and development. the kind of political outlook, the understanding he had about the whole global affairs, to arrive to speak at the summit in cairo, egypt, at the time. that was a monumental leap from someone who in 1952 was walking out of the penitentiary and suddenly moving to the ranks of the nation of islam to become the national spokesperson, and then by 1964 is leading the world leaders. you can look at from swami in ghana all the way to -- to say nothing of tom to talk about -- even in egypt with nasser, to say nothing about saudi arabia a meeting with all of the prince. he had an opportunity to sit with these very important international leaders picky was almost like the president of black america at that time. he was certainly our emissary. he was on a mission. malcolm was on a mission at that time in terms of not only bring the u.s. government to bear in terms of the mistreatment, the genocidal things, because he picked up the cry at william paterson who said we charge of genocide. he was making that seem kind of charge against u.s. government in terms of a violation of our civil and human rights. he was going to make that case at the summit. he never had a chance to really speak there but he did circulate a petition at that time declaring some of his objectives, as he called it american dollar ransom. balance is kind of castigation of society and take it to the world corporately wanted to take the used to the world court. so you can understand the height and interpretations of the u.s. state department had about this particular powerful voice, this charismatic, magnetic individual who is having sway with all of these world leaders out there. so i feel that 1964 when you when you look at how malcolm had made that evolution and moving toward this assessment of who he was, i think it was kind of a self-discovery process that was going on at the same time that man, you got a certain amount of power and how you going to utilize it. 1964, boom, malcolm was probably at the peak of his political understanding. >> host: herb boyd, we are a couple miles south of parliament here on 42nd street. does the audubon auditorium still exist? >> guest: in a way it does but it's been transformed into, it's the memorial center. you can go there if an activity dependent on the time of year, what's going on, particularly around the birthday of malcolm x, which of course is may 19, 1925, all around his assassination where people, and want to remind themselves again of the importance that he had in our lives. .. >> host: going to ask you a question like a college professor would ask. >> guest: uh-oh. i just ran. >> host: compare and contrast mall culp x and martin luther king. >> guest: woo. that's something i do quite often in the classroom, and i think more than anything -- i mean you have to look at the history of african-american thought. the african-american political thought. because we have had a bifurcation -- going back to the very beginning, the other day i spoke at the association for the study of african-american life and history. the whole organization that woodson pulled together, and the theme was the 190th year of the abolition of slavery in the state of new york. 190 years ago. that's going back to -- back to 1827. and dish reminded audience that at the same time that you're talking about the 190th 190th abolition of slavery, czeched to that other few months before was a found of freedoms journal, the first african-american newspaper that was pulled together by john russ worm and samuel cornage. who individuals who put their ideas together, put together this newspaper, and within a year or so they're going into different directions. one becoming samuel cornage, his understanding that, oh, i'm a little bit more involved in what happens with us and this country and less concerned about africa. russworm was what they called at that time a colonist. he was the whole american colonialization was part of that and he being go to go to liberia and teach and bring the idea of struggle we had in this country to the african population. samuel cornage had a different view. in 1820s you have this kind of break, two individuals who have come together seemingly on the same page, littery and figure actually. and going in different directions. have what that from generations, down to look at the henry highland garnett and a fredericks douglass in terms of how to deal with the oppression this kind of racism and white supremacy we have in this society. how do we handle that. what tactically, strategically we do about it. markus garvey, dubois, booker t. washington, political differences individuals have in terms of how do we move to bring about political change, social and economic conditions that are oppressing us. how do we do that? so you have different strategies and tactics. so when you get to down to malcolm and martin, all you have to do is take a look back and see that this is something that has been styled studied over the years and nothing different and if you good different than that, beyond dr. king and malcolm, move into the civil rights movement and the human rights struggle, we'll have differences in terms of a strategies and tactics if think more than anything we have had a couple of fine scholars out there who have dealt with the differences there between martin and malcolm. usually -- in my classroom what i try to do is try to find the commonalities. where there's common ground. in the same way i true do with booker t. washington and w. e. b. dubois, booker t says i don't agree, w.e.b. that's what is happening in terms on the kernel, the seed. some be some way to bring you together on those things, and i think if martin and malcolm were an trajectory -- this is my proposition -- they were moving in such a way n their ideas were coming closer and closer together. particularly from a malcolm perspective. maybe less so with martin. but malcolm began to say -- first of all, he began to tamp down his holy attack on the big six, the leaders of the civil rights movement at that time. and become less absorbed with that and keeping his eye on another prize. and i think you have examples of that when he spoke at the brown memorial church in selma, alabama. this is like -- he's reaching out to the civil rights movement. in africa in 1964, he ran into john lewis, who was traveling with don harris. they were traveling and had this encounter, john lewis talks about walking -- in his out autobiographyy meeting mall culp and how con jean al -- congenial the situation was and coming together and when he spoke on february 4, 1965, an indication the is moving more. he shared a podium with fanny lou hamer right here in new york. all of these indicative of him saying i'm moving closer and close toker where you are, you dig it? so meet me halfway. malcolm had already reached a certain plateau of understanding about what was happening in this country and had an analysis on that. i think martin was gradually moving that same direction, too. you can see that the poor people's campaign, what he did was on a memphis here with the sanitation workers, began to talk less and less about color but more and more about class. speaking out against the war in vietnam. malcolm had been on those particular issues before. it was nothing new for him. so to have martin talking about them, you can see the political trajectories, coming closer and closer together, and i think that maybe some governmental forces that were aware of the same possibilities. >> they ever meet? >> they met once, and that was, again, going back to the 1964, march of 1964, when they happened to bump into each. kind of a photo op that had. very little was said at that point, i think it's important to go back to selma. malcolm went to selma. and at that time martin was in jail, but he met -- the film captures what -- they do with the film on sell marks captures the moment where malcolm is meeting with coretta and telling her, you tell your husband, you tell martin, i got his back, more or less, that's what he is saying. he kind of reaching out and expressing an attitude of protection. in other words, if they don't deal with martin they have to deal with me. kind of a hidden threat attachment to this governmental powers and forces in this country. so, that's another indication that malcolm was beginning to reach out in such a way that he had never done before. i mean, when he talked about the march on washington being a farce on washington, now he talking -- that's 1963. almost a year later, his attitude is beginning to change and i think it had -- his eyes opening to so many other potentialities so many other realities of coalescing, of collaboration, of bringing a kind of -- our resources together because we have a mutual enemy. >> herb boyd is our guest, and you have been very patient, waiting on the phone line. we'll put the known numbers up again and cycle through the social media site you so yukon tact professor boyd. we'll begin with neville in cleveland, ohio. thank you for holding on, you're on the air on booktv. >> caller: mr. boyd, i'd like to bring up the matter of the role of the black church and black clergy in the civil rights movement. all of us know that martin luther king and ralph abernathy and a whole number of other people, including mr. jackson, were in the black church, but has anyone ever written a book about the role of the black church as a long description of the challenges, the triumphs, the disagreements, the problems between the leadership and also the role of men and women who were not clergy. i'd like to find out if anyone has written -- any win of the fine historians has written a book on that topic. thank you. >> host: thank you, neville in cleveland. >> guest: that's quite a feud, come to think of it itself. earlier when i was making reference to a scholar who is just down -- done a magnificent job of bringing the ideas of malcolm and martin together, i was -- as doctor james koehn and james koehn also worked with gay rod wilmore and how black nationalism within the whole church movement. obviously the caller raises a very interesting question that has a long history in terms of the -- the church being a sanctuary, a refuge, where we could come together, begin to express our ideas without the overseer, you might say, the slave holder, i don't say master. i say slaveholder, looking in and having access to ideas and everything. you know our detrimental that was in terms off offsetting the possibility of revolt and certainly the idea of rebellion could be stifled. you begin to express yourself and have a common -- commentary with ourselves without somebody listening in all the time. but i think the church has been that refuge, the sanctuary, and the political ideas that grew out of the church. we can go back and look at a number of the ministers who were revolutionaries, down to the 1960s. and black detroit, for example, i kind of invoke at least five or six very important pastors who were connected to political developments up there. when you talk about the whole walk for freedom in 1963, reverend c. l. franklin was -- >> host: father of aretha franklin. >> guest: right. beyoncé or franklin, we talk about the albert clay, who eventually becomes -- the whole back nationalism within the church, and the role he played at that time in 1963, when malcolm comes to town and spoke at king solomon baptist church. the difference there between in the outlook of c. l. franklin and reverend clay at that point. anyway we talked about whether or not it's coming from islamic or christian standpoint. the church or religion, you might say, has been very instrumental in our understanding of how we can bring these formations together in such a way that can have some impact on bringing about change. so the church, and our ministers, james washington, for example, has done a phenomenal amount of work in pulling together his sermons of dr. king. certainly would recommend that book. cornell west has done over the years in terms of looking at the black church. i mean, there's any number of commentators that we have had who have been just absolutely indispensable and giving us some understanding about the role of religious leaders. >> host: in your book "black detroit" you have a small note at the back that says you wish you hat the christian charity of your mother. >> guest: my mother. it's kind of hard -- i think it's a certain kind of pride that i take in invoking which influence and impact she had on me. we had the c-span did that nice -- i was talking to her this morning. she is watching this right now. i'm on my p's and q's mom. she is 97 years old, peter, and we talk about this earlier in terms of the influence that she had on me over the years, and one of the opportunities i think she gave the family and particularly my brother and me as well as our sister, colorist, she gave us a sense we could do anything. all those possibilities out there. and i think her life is an example of that because she was born in alabama, as i was, and began to venture out as a very young woman. that was not that common to find -- i mean, young black men would take off but rarely black women would take off and she's in her 20s, and she is venturing out of alabama all the way to michigan, and meet up with people up there who embrace her and her native abilities and certain kind of intelligence and intuition has always been amazing for me. her grasp and understanding of the -- having only a tenth grade education, but the kind of worldly understanding that she possessed. i don't know where she got that from. tried to understand my grandmother, who in a certain kind of adventurous spirit, the male side of the family, which is pretty much unknown for me. so she is kind of the -- a resource over the years and moving us around the community of detroit for the most part when i talk about my history in the city, it's really her history. and the close read of it, people will find immediately who she is and what she meant to not only my understanding of the history but her whole life. it's her biography of her life and i know some degree she takes exception -- don't be be putting my business on the street, that kind of attitude, and i can understand that. i think that's instructive. think the lessons of her life should be shared with a much larger population than just our family. i think what she has meant to me and i try to convey that. try to capture what i feel is the essence of her spirit, and because at 97 years of age, she still expresses this will, this sense of community, of getting out there. she goes to the food pantry -- 97-year-old woman going to food pantries -- >> host: driving herself. >> guest: driving herself. not at night. but driving herself to get goods to bring it back to the complex to share with all of her friends, and they really miss it when she doesn't do that. so, i mean, i just love her that kind of commitment, and i hope that we always hope that you can pick up some of that same energy and understanding from your parents, but i think she taught me well, and to understand how do you give back? and i tried to do it in a different way, of course, but i just felt her story need to be told -- maybe not in a direct way but in an indirect way, becomes like a -- kind of -- she seems to be all the different moments in detroit's history, when she wasn't there she has an understanding. going back to the 19 -- riot of 1943. just a riot? she just brought my brother and me in about a couple of -- two or three months before the riot of '43, and here she was, she got caught up in all of that, and some of the stories she told me, well, won't be a spoiler on this. read "black detroit." >> host: well, derek williams posts on tower facebook page: big fan of your work, as an alabama native i read you moved from birmingham at an early age. can you talk about that event in your life and how it. pacted you? would you be a different person if your family stayed in birmingham. >> really not actually birmingham. we go back and forth. where i was raised was in cotton valley, which is just outside of tuskegee. i was told -- my father told me -- i had a chance to see him on several occasions after he and my mother separated over the years. and he was telling me -- he took me to the church where his father built the church there and this mole houston virtually was built -- it's kind of like boydsville but it's cotton valley, and i left there when i was four years of age. heaven only knows what would have happened if i had remained there to some extent i guess i can look at my half brothers and half sisters who did stay there, and they have lived very, very productive and very important lives of their own, without necessarily breaking outside of alabama. pretty much in alabama except for one of my sisters who moved out, but for the most part they have been actual -- actually two of my sisters moved out. one in new jersey, adrian, and yoletta who is with the ancestors now who i met in detroit. many years later. a strange meeting. was on the television show called "awe beula land that it came out. capturing the slave days and i was invited on channel 4 to talk bit; an historian from wayne state university. and carmen harlan, who is retired, was host of the show after the show she said there's a call for you. picked up a phone and this young lady started asking me, what's your father's name? i told her, clinton. she says, were you born in alabama? i said i was born in alabama she says i thing you're my brother. i look like him and da da da. so, that was yoletta and she was important to introduce introducing me to my other half-brothers and sisters. they grew up in a.m. and stayed there with my father and his second wife. into they was right there. and i look at their lives and they have made tremendous contributions. they're professionals, teachers, involved in community activism. so i imagine i would have had that same spirit. heaven only knows where it's cooking from. whether it's from your father or mother or a combination, jumps over generations, mary a grandmother or grandfather and they feet a need to give back. think principally it was my mother. watched her example of the years as a very young person, and she moved us around that community in such a way that i grew up with an entire city of detroit, and i never left any of those neighborhoods behind. i brought them right along with me and i went back to visit them in the same way that she moves around the community today, making sure that connecting the dots, bringing these people together, whether i'm doing it in a classroom, whether i'm doing it through my articles in the amsterdam news and other publicses, whether in my publications as an author, it's an attempt to kind of bring folks together. how do you provide some understanding about your life that could be an example for them. some lessons for them. >> host: rome, washington, dc, thank you for holding on. you're on with author and professor herb boyd. >> caller: you're welcome, peter. thank you, c-span, for this very important conversation about a very inspiring author. there's so much of herb boyd's work that has inspired me. mainly his critique of liberalism and i want to thank c-span, brian lamb's vision, for allowing his kind of conversation about this important type of work. mr. boyd, professor boyd, you have written a lot, so it's hard within i guess a short time period to tell you, thank you for everything but i think i want to focus on at least two points from your entire body of work that has helped me tremendously. you wrote, we shall overcome, mentioned earlier in the program. narrated by davis and dee and something about dee's narration of fannie lou hamer's story that it go to when i'm sad. and another thing you have in that is ozzie davis' anywhere rigs of kwame, and in d.c. different parts of the city rick niced the birth day of kwame. in your book, you write: malcolm and baldwin would find common ground in their distrust of white liberalled, subject that recures throughout baldwin's texas and nonfiction and i thank you for that and i also thank you for writing and editing by "any means necessary" and which was mentioned and i thank you for selecting my essay, mara -- marabells. you mentioned to earlier american dollarism, was a speech he gave called the appeal to african heads of state and one of your notes you say that, as you mentioned earlier in the program, didn't get a chance to say this speech but i'm so glad that earlier in this program you said the term that it wanted you to speak about, which is my question, american dollarism. and my question is basically could you talk about how the liberal media promotes american dollarism even in its coverage of trump. >> host: now, is this fraser? >> yes. good to see you. >> host: tell us about yourself. other. >> caller: i was deeply inspired by, is a mentioned. , mr. bodies' work. helped me form my own voice also a writer. earned my ph.d in african-american study, in 2012. also interviewed mr. boyd about his biography of james baldwin for wbai radio. so mr. boyd, i'm so grateful for c-span to allow this range of opinions and to -- specifically somebody that means so much to me as a writer, to help me develop my voice by discussioning the development of malcolm x's voice, of baldwin's voice, of also actors voices who are narrating our history. so, yes -- >> host: we'll leave it there and hear from professor herb boyd. >> guest: no. no. let him continue. >> host: we have been talking about -- >> guest: i'm going to take him on the road with me. no, roan. aim glad you brought that up in term's his contribution. a very fine scholar, writer and colleague, and just hope that there's more like him out there who are picking up on this information, not so much from any kind of personal gratification but certainly just generally feeling a need to participate to be engaged in a community of activism and intellectual ideas, and roan is a part of that so good to hear from him. he raised so many can he -- >> host: let's go to dollarism. in the age that we're living in today. >> guest: what malcolm was commenting on -- that was kind of the political economic analysis that malcolm cultivating, and refining, and in the process of developing. you have to understand he is coming out of a situation where those ideas a were not that pregnant. they did not -- he didn't have an opportunity to really engage a community of scholars in a way where they could go back and forth in terms of sharpening analysis and forwarding of the politically economy of this country. he had to go abroad. as baldwin had to do had to leave this country in order to see the country. you get a perspective when you step away from it. almost like the old expression, the fish is the last to know it's in the water. when you take a step back and you say, ah-ha, can see the full picture of it, baldwin was able to see the full picture once he arrived in france. malcolm began to get a better understanding of the american situation, a bit removed from it, and at the same time not only removing yourself from it but being surrounds by other critics and picking up their information, too, and their analysis and their understanding, and he was just on the precipice of that. just beginning to gather that. when he said american dollarism, the last two words at the end of that petition that he circulated was that he was trying to comment on something that is still very relevant today in terms of how we begin to move in a political economic way, and i think that when you look at a -- other than american dollarism, american capitalism, think essentially he was trying to get to that. what is your assessment of that. how you break that down and how meaningful could that be in terms of our overall development, our growth and development as a people elm went could separate ourselves completely from that because certainly enterprises, entrepreneurial things going on. talk about that in "black detroit." they're inseparable in tucking about the understanding of the people. we talk about the people who own the business. no not say that particular ownership is predisposed to being in opposition to our political outlook. they could be in concert with it. and so many of them are. i work at the amsterdam news, and many people say, well do you see that fitting within the whole capitalist formation? the capital network? i guess in one way we're making money but always a matter of dispensing service. how do you give back. to what extent're just exploiting the people? you profit before people? or an opportunity to provide jobs for individuals? you can see if you have 20-25 employees there, you know you're sustaining their lives so that's a very important part of them. of course then you're concerned about the political content, the editorial direction of that particular publication, and that is where the analysis comes in to say that are you providing the information that we need for liberation? are you giving us the kind of insight towards self-determination? i think that's where the rubber meets the road in terms of distinguishing the whole american dollarism, the american capitalism, from the entrepreneurial zeal and outlook from the people who are our business men and women who are interested in preserving our communities, expanding our possibilities, providing jobs, and wherewithal for people in desperate need. so, you cannot just dismiss them entirely and saying that they're just a part and parcel of the overall exploitation of our people. no. there's some of them who are very much concerned with the livelihood and moving news a very productive and a concrete way toward political change. i think they have to be separated from peeve who people who have impofrishment and have some discussion between whether one is valuable and not value and that's what malcolm bag beginning to suggest. let's get to this discussion. now he is over in africa, in the middle east, and he is surrounded by different kind of individuals and critiques on the american experience so one way he has to defend and it begin to explain it and to understand how unique that experience is in global affairs. that's where malcolm was. he was just in the learning process. you have to understand that he was 39 years of age. he is just 39 years old when he is coming to grips with certain realities out there that he never had -- he didn't go to college. i mean, this man is an self-educated. he got his ph.d in the pennal systems in the u.s. taught by elijah mohammad. the began to discussion this parent's connection to the garvey movement and again to read everything he could. he was a quick study. one of my surrogate fathers says malcolm was one of the best students he ever had. that student was just begin doing emerge before he was taken from us. >> host: next call for herb boyd from russell in brooklyn. russell, did i say this first name correctly. >> caller: not quite. rasul. professor boyd, it's a pleasure to be able to publicly acknowledge the important contributions you have made in chronicling and enter operating our history and our -- interpreting our history and our culture. also a joy to be able to remind him of something i'm sure he knows, he done good. on the serious side when you talk about the church, you talk about the newspapers,, as venues for develop of black thought. having come of age at the time that the book store and frederick douglass become store in harlem were the places where black intellectuals denies an opportunity to be in the universities, gathered together and provided an opportunity for that intellectual exchange at the same time you talked about the church and the press. i was wondering if you could talk about the role of the independent book store as a -- as depth of that black political thought. >> guest: good question. i'm sorry i left that out. it's very important to me in more than one way in terms of booksellers. in fact, just the other day i was at revolution books, which is right on the corner dish don't know how much our listenerred understand about the gee -- geography of harlem but the book was on the corner of malcolm x, lennox, and 131st 131st street. >> host: just north 0 of the shomberg center. >> guest: her father was hugh mosak who wrote a book called "a star to steer by." he was a trained maritime captain, merchant marine, all of that. he advised markus garvey in terms of the whole buying of those ships he did back in the 1920s. really advised him against ships saying they're not sea bury. that was hugh mosak, hires daughter, una mosak who was injured two an explosion in guyana and then ended up in harlem and opened up this book store and throughout the '60s -- your caller is right in terms of it being a source and center of all kind of intellectual ideas and gatherings. i lived in that store. i at least once a week i there was if there either some concern, picking up a book, or just talking to some of the individuals who worked there i remember ernie allen, for maybe years he worked there many years at the university of massachusetts, professor up there, and me in detroit and wayne state university back in the day, and the kind of love that he had for being in that, around all those books. bibliophiles. we love that. but having the kind of literature availably you can pick up james, the blackjack, where you can get the -- the african liberation magazines and publications in picker. they were available there. she had the top of the line books that other outlets did not have, you could find them there i had to -- now revolution books -- matter or fact revolution books is on the other kosher now and they tried to pick up and carry on the same tradition of providing literature out there that is otherwise not available, particularly militant radical political revolutionary, communist, what have you, literature that covers the full -- a broad expanse of genres. so, i think that's what your caller is talking about in terms of frederick douglass book store, going back to individuals who out of that revolutionary period, and harlem in particular. we had louis b. charles book store, where the state office building is now, where the intersection of 125th street and adam clayton powell boulevard. for many years you could see images of malcolm speaking out in front of that particular book store in terms of the propaganda, the house of propaganda they talked about in those days. that was an important book store and over the years we have sisters uptown now, in harlem, and if you go out into other parts of the country, in philadelphia, chicago, pittsburgh, where i've been, all of the book stores have been very important in terms of offering opportunities for authors who otherwise are not invited to some of the major booksellers. so, the independent booksellers issue stand by them and i love them all. >> host: next call for herb boyd from helen in philadelphia. good afternoon. you're on booktv on c-span2. >> caller: good morning -- well, good morning, guess. excellent show. god bless your mother, brother boyd. can you please clarify she the assertion about self-determination and black leadership, and i'm framing this question in relation to the so-called criticism of "black lives matter," following black agency with black only leadership meet examination my question is -- meetings, and my question is the media is tribal trying to label "black lives matter" as racist which is ridiculous. as we now, brother john henry clark told us, the only racism is white supremacy, and white supremacy is the only racism. can you please discuss this in relation to elma wiley's assertion that african people can have alliances but have to have self-determination and can you always throw in some kwame turrei because the system of white supremacy that is racism and thank you and shoutout to c-span, excellent show, black power, please support the move nine, hands off, and i'm remembering brother obadeli. good work, brother boyd. good work. thank you so much. >> host: herb boyd that was helen in philadelphia. >> guest: don't go away. she said -- my feelings -- my sentimentses entirely is with her. we're getting back from kwame, former heir stokley carmichael. the biography of joseph, his own residentings with charms hamilton in terms of looking at black power the whole concept and and how it evolved. that's a constant in our struggle for self-determination, and i'm glad that she kind of dwelled on that particular notion. across the years with brother obady lil in terms of free the land in terms of the republic of new africa, and milton henry, all those individuals, the mayor in jackson, mississippi. a continuation. we can cease see this processing going on this cryout for shakur in view of the anti-normalization of the trump administration. whiching away at the obama legacy and of saying something about, hey, bring back this fusionism justice in terms of shakur and the cuban government saying hands off, she's note going anywhere. and then to go back in terms of "black lives matter," should she's absolutely right in terms of criticism of being leveled against them. these three young women who brought this organization into existence and then picked up -- i mean the whole ferguson thing we in other words with the michael brown as well as what is happening with freddie gray in baltimore and has resonated across the country because the continuation of police brutality and then exoneration of and acquittal of officers irvest reminiscent of the discuss i discussed in "black detroit" because we had a series of the same situations and you see that what happened to boyd in chicago is similar that would happened with jones in 2010 in detroit when the police kind of invaded their home and shot this seven-year-old young woman, young girl, in detroit. that's back in 2010. to say nothing of green who the police brutalized him. that's 1992. right after the whole rodney king thing in terms of the continuation of this. just amazing that you could absolutely categorize an organization that is concerned with the protection of this communities and its people and to see them in such a dissparing light and some of the media is responsible just beyond the altright. eh we have some main stream media just not sensitive enough to where ore or concerns are. the inneck inequity that exists and "black lives matter" is a continuation of a spirit of struggle and resistance that has been part of the american experience, the black american experience in particular, from day one. if you go back to david walker, go back to nat turner, these individuals who cried out, even with the john brown, when we talk about a john brain and what he stood in terms of militant abolitionism in this country. we have yet to have the kind of film -- i think a film is need weed we can really capture what john brown was all about and particularly the five black men who rode with him. they ignored in the whole discussion. not only ignore john brown but what about the individuals who rode with him? osborn anderson who was the one survivor who wrote "the voice from harper's ferry." >> host: an eenemy from thomas, as we approach the 50th 50th anniversary of detroit's 12th street uprise this month i would like to know does professor boyd recall the murder in rouge park of danny thomas the month before and whether he had any personal connection with the victim's relativelies and in august, the movie "detroit" will open which recounts the algiers motel murders. does professor boyd have any advance impressions about the film and then thomas, who livers in marry yeti, georgia, says, p.s. i was 14 in 1967 at a detroit free press paper route which allowed me on the streets in the early morning hours white the curfew was in effect. it was a time i'll never forget and helped inspire a live life-long dedication to issues of social justice. >> guest: well, quite a bit there first of all let's deal with the probably the most significant development out of that is the film, katherine bigelow, very fine filmmaker, academy award "the hurt locker," "zero dark --" one of the things that -- i haven't soon the film. i statue the trailer. the trailer is all over the place. the film opens august 4th and focuses on the algiers motel incident. first of all you have to kind of con tech to allize the -- contextualize the rebellion and you get in terms of whether it was a riot or rebellion. civil disturbance, uprising, upheaval. >> host: the 1967 riots in detroit. >> guest: exactly. we characterize it as a rebellion, those who were very much part of that period of time and was bringing a more political analysis to what was happening in terms of the content of that uprising. so we're saying that more class elements and not any kind of racial an animus was going on as in 1943. it was clear lay black and white thing, going after each other savagely. but the rebellion was like a consumer upriding. people going after property. >> host: you were 28 at the time. >> guest: oh are yeah. >> host: were you involved. >> guest: right there one thing about that, i was living in new york city in 1958 when henry hampton put together his just classic probably incomparable study of the civil rights movement in terms of documenting -- the documentary he did on it. "eyes on the prize" is a facts fantastic study of the civil rights mom, and sam palmer came to new york and caught up with my and judy richardson and interviewed me about the '67 rebellion and i had an opportunity to talk about it. the experience was still fresh with the 1985. some 20 years later. still resonates so strong live we me because i was in the streets at that time, very much involved, an activist, what have you, and then later on at wayne state university we capitalized on that particular uprising to put some pressure on the university to bring about some changes in terms of black studies and curriculum but that's another discussion. one thing about the film that's coming out, focuses on the algiers motel incident which happened two days after the actual uprising on 12th and claremont, the so called blind pig ready 80 some people were arrested. the community crazy outraged, boom, boom, boom, and the next thing you know michael lewis was called as the culprit and targeted as the individual who sparked the whole rebellion. we had a movement to rescue him from this vicious vice of injustice, and but the other thing, two days later, on july july 25th at the algiers motel incident -- john hersy put a become out on it, and again, talked about my friend earlier, reverend dan all driven -- aldrich who was involved in bringing in a discussion -- >> host: once in a great city. >> guest: exactly. "once in a great city" by david moranis, and the whole cnn documentary. that zero is in on 1963 and the rebellion is 1967 and july 25th you had three young black men who were killed, odd audrey pollard, fred kemple and -- the three who were killed. no justice -- no justice was going to come as a result of this. we figured these officers who had this tragic, dastardly deed, they were not going to be tried or convicted at all of this, and that's when this whole people's tribunal was developed, and of course, dan aldrich and lonny pete and kenny cockrel, the activists in the the community got involved to say we'll have our own sense of justice. so i'm curious -- one concern i've heard about the film is it was shot in boston. they had little or no detroiters involved, either in back or in front of the camera. so we have to see how true this is. i heard there's going to be a screening coming up soon at the african-american museum there, and i'll get it first hand from some individuals who have seen it at that time and get their commentary, maybe before the national release of it in august 4th, because they're focusing on a number of events, transpiring in detroit now around the '67 rebellion. it's 50 years. we love 50 years and 100 years, let's get together and look at this thing. so we got all these different kind of activities going on around the '67 rebellion and the film is a centerpiece, it's called "detroit." not called "detroit '67" or "detroit rebellion" some people are concerned about the title that may be infringing on creative efforts and may have hijacked their projects and what have you, but that's the toe be seen. we say the old expression out of the '60s, if you haven't provided any kind of -- really take a look at it. no critique no right to speak. have to check it out and see what the film is all about. anticipate that. >> host: what was your role in the '67 riots, rebellion? >> guest: my role -- >> host: in the streets? >> guest: my role was to -- first of all, as a reporter, to kind of report on it to analyze it, later on, i was on the -- using it in the classroom. >> host: were you at wayne state at that point teach. >> guest: yeah. had been at wayne state two years, 1965, after malcolm's assassination -- i was on my dui new york when he was assassinated, coming out of the military then, working for a short time the factories, my next thought was malcolm. and, boom, he's gone. so i went to wayne state university. 26 years of age. i'm arriving at wayne state university. so i arrived there, a little bit older than the other students, 18, 19-year-old kids there. so i've been around the world and read everything, so almost by default i was made a leader on campus so in '65 when i arrived there -- a different kind of -- there was 11 colleges at wayne state university. monteith was just one of the colleges. offered an alternative to the liberal -- the traditional liberal arts crick rum in the sense -- curriculum and it interwove social and political science and humannivities and the natural sciences. how you bring these things together. i guess i'm trying to do that same thing in my life. is as the author, the activist, as the journalist, how do you bring these different threads together you can see the commonalities and how they feet off of each other, and there's a continuum, this inner penetration of these disciplines a that's what they did at monteith college. they instilled that notion that it try to continue in my whole practice as a -- i call the three as, alter academic activist so be involved in such a way. that what i was trying to do in 1967. i'm at wayne state university, right? one of the concerns i had was the freeing michael lewis, because they had blamed him, one individual was sparking this whole rebellion. so i led that whole campaign, i brought different activists at wayne straight university. only been there -- had only been there two years but the two years of being in monteith college. they had a curriculum you could delve what you can't to do here's he classes, want to teach this. that's when i thought the first malcolm x class at monteith college. s into popular and it was opened up to the campus. i had something like 150 students at one standpoint had to bring in some help. i brought in people like ernie allen and david rambo and gloria nebhouse and danny aldrich, all these individuals who came into my classroom to help me control -- i didn't have a ta or teaching assistant and this is a cash cow, peter, for the university. all these students paying money and enrolling in these classes and each year it accumulated more and more students. got to pint that when we did a thing onroots"," we had something like 250 students but we got so large, almost unwieldy so necessary to bring some help in, when we got to the "roots" level my wife was indispensable at that time. helping me coordinate those activities along with two or three of our other aassistants, going out to the part of the extension of the university, kind offered we had an east side extension of the campus at that time. reaching out into the community again because wayne state university has had problem over having african-american students on the campus. so the '57 rebellion gave us the opportunity to open up the campus and allow more african-american students. that's one of the demands we put on the president. >> host: why was your wife indispensable and who is she. >> guest: at that time she wasn't my wife. she was a colleague me and hired me to to come on the east side campus to teach a class over there. in... >> we have been married since 1986. we got married in zimbabwe. we were traveling and got married in africa and i guess, i think we did is there but we did it again when we came back you know. it was an opportunity for us to kind of bring all of the very valuable resources that we have. you know very, anyway in which we could make sure that you know through our literary pursuits in particular. because she got me my first, one of the books we didn't talk about was the form portuguese colonies in africa.>> we don't have that one listed! [laughter] you have a 30 books out there. >> well but that was the first - >> we had to curate the list a little bit. >> that was the first one peter. she was working and heard about it so she contacted me. i was still in detroit at the time. and she said there is a possibility, do you want to do this book? and i have traveled all over the continent. ended out of africa at least every summer i took off and went to some parts of africa for about 10 straight years. so i had accumulated quite a lot of information and having such colleagues out there and people who were living on the continent, many of them, those individuals whom my connecting points when i went to tanzania and then later on in 1974 we had the six pack that was an opportunity for all of these here powerful intellectuals from all over the world to come together and continue to kind of you know the spirit -- the previous fifth, the fifth was in manchester. black power you know the whole six pack these world congress is a black people coming together from all over the world and so that is what happened with six pack. in 1974, it was out of that particular gathering of ideas that i was able to feed into the book on the former portuguese colonies in africa. mozambique and -- >> list here from ab in toledo. >> i have two concise questions please. one, what does a phd - that i heard you say? >> what is your second question? >> i would like him to suggest that peter if you do not mind. >> let's get your questions out on the table and then we will get him to answer both. >> all right. there are a few peter. the next one is what is your insight on the - quote - coming from the owner of the new york fire chief and the other one is this, given the collaboration between the islamic community and the christian community and what is your insight relative to the outcome of the millions of dollars and lastly given the fact that all the valuables from the world trade fiasco, horrific as it was, were not there when the building collapsed and the examination went down. what occurred? thank you very much. i think we have the point ab. he brought in pull the plug, million man march and in his view, the valuables were removed from the world trade center prior to 9/11. and the connection between islam and christians with the million man march. >> the first one is the easiest. the phb is a bachelor of philosophy. that is all. you can bachelor of science you can have you know and bachelor of arts and you can have a bachelor of philosophy. and that is what it was good that is what the college offered. my attraction had less to do with any kind of degree. it had much to do with the opportunity just to get into a certain kind of intellectual community and it had a reputation of being attracting -- it was the nonconformist, the hippies and stuff like that. and that is essentially what i found there.i felt right at home and very comfortable. and those people who would nontraditional ideas about curriculum, about how to conduct, how to pull their lives together. so all of those things appealed to me and later on i saw this phb and i said what is that all about? i raised the same question! you know what is a phb? over the years my send my resume out, people say they correct it and they think i meant to say phd. well no, i meant phb. that is a correction that should be made that i do not have a phd. and the history of that goes back to 1967 again peter. back when i made a decision at that point. what are you going to do with your academic career? because coming out of wayne state university in 1969, i was kind of a late bloomer. but still, opportunities existed there. one of the opera -- one of the opportunities was to get a full ride but i was all ready teaching at the wednesday university as an undergraduate. when you have 8000 does come in it looks a lot better than $8000 so i was also very comfortable at wayne state university. i was at home. i was among my comrades you know, the many of them and there was a five or six year difference but it was no big deal at that time. many of those young people became my students and they are my lifelong friends and my colleagues. just the other day two or three of them called me when they heard i was going to be here on c-span. and they said we are going to look at you and check you out herb. it had remarkable careers and so it is probably the most fulfilling aspect of all of this. that you touch those individuals and put them on a path the same way they have put me on a path. and it goes back to the other part or at least one part of the caller's concern. in terms of the million man march. of course i participated in that. and i wrote about it. and i felt good about it. and in the same way i feel good about black lives matter because that was a kind of iteration of this year kind of community and expression coming from the black experience. you are translating that in a political way. and i think that is what happened with the whole million man march. just bringing together some of the same ideas that robert allen when we did the brother man, the odyssey black men in america. the million man march was a larger version of that. a much larger version. and of course the ideas coming from farrakhan and that particular formation coming together. end of cost we applaud him for that. you're always concerned about when you have a major moment. you had to capitalize on them in such a way that you may get meaning beyond that particular assembly? what you gather from that? what are the takeaways from that particular coming together? and you hope that it begins to instill in individuals who participate in terms of their all in power that they possess as an individual. it is kind of putting your company for like you are lost and outside of it open now you are part of it. note you have a gathering of all these brothers mainly with the million man march. and subsequent developments after that with women as well as the family fortune think is even more meaningful. when you bring the whole family together for that. but you're going to start with some of the problems that black men had in society both among themselves as well as with society in general. and i think that was useful. i saw a different kind of attitude expressed by black men as a result of the march. the respect. he began to dispense you know with their loved ones. their children. the kind of reaching out. peoplehood which is important because you do not have those opportunities too often. the nation of islam was pivotal in all of that. louis farrakhan, we salute him for that. and of course, the understand that islam you know how that plays into a lot of this. of course when malcolm was beginning to, when he peeled away from it and began to move in a more orthodox way, you know with islam. it caused a little consternation for half the people who understood that no one could do the story like malcolm in terms of the cosmology of african-american people. a sense of beginning, you know malcolm could do that like no one's business. and that then began to move away from that. that is not the power of orthodox islam. this -- he began to move in a more orthodox way and i think that nina, we kind of create differences with members who were still left in the nation of islam as well as his particular, when he was beginning to express about elijah mohammed. because a lot of people who were in the nation of islam still hold him as the holy apostle. and they have every right to do that. people are left to their own particular icons and idols and what have you. malcolm became mine. and i held true to a lot of what i felt kind of the unimpeachable integrity that the express. and i try to see his life as an example of on. so in terms of moving towards orthodox islam and stuff like that, you know, in terms of one's religious preferences and of course private and what you want to do. i've always had a lot of respect for all of the religions because i have gone through most of them myself. i think i am a born-again marxist live. leave it at that. >> was not 11 -- was 9/11 an inside job? >> i am not sure what exactly is asking. >> basically i think he is a 9/11 conspiracy theorist. >> i have very little to add to that. you have all of these different things out there. i was close to -- and he was certainly concerned that there was an elements that were not fully disclosed and to the total community and that a day of reckoning was upon us. you talk about the conspiratorial aspects. i usually run for the hills. [laughter] unless i have some solid information to refute or dispute any particular - i mean we have this, historically we have had the peter.we look back and look at american history. i mean there almost every.we have had a situation where spiritual real aspects get in there. sometimes we don't even need a conspiracy to bring about the results of things. it is just an accumulation of forces. they begin to reach a critical mass in such a way that there is no other outlet for expression for the particular outcome.in a logical way. we start talking about while he was in back of it. but no concrete information. no investigation, no right to be. >> well, our conversation with herb boyd will continue. as we do with every author may have on in-depth, we ask him or her what influences they have had in their ives. what books in their lives. but before that we want to give me a little bit of a tour of harlem. that is where herb boyd listed. he has written two books about harlem. this is one that he edited. going to show you this done by neil shoemaker. harlem, heritage chores. this was several years ago on booktv. he gives us a bit of a literary tour of harlem and he is still doing these stores. it is harlem heritage chores. this is neil shoemaker and our conversation will continue after this. >> what we are going to do today is take very walk through harlem on 1920s harlem. we're going to go from here to 125th street all the way north all up to 1/38 and then west and background seventh avenue back down going south to 131st street and then coming back to 135th. here we stand, 138th street between lenox avenue and fifth avenue. and as you can see on this site marcus garvey, politics first public leader in the united states in the year 1916. many people feel that the thing that gave birth to the harlem renaissance was the opportunity of center held in 1944 by the urban league with charles s johnson put together -- then they would have the opportunity awards dinners where they would celebrate various artists of the 1920s. these buildings here are the offices of the urban league. this is something you know this building here at 267 west 136 street. there they are celebrating the fact that on this site have a building known as -- a huge apartment that was made available to their men, nugent and other writers of the period. [inaudible] [background sounds] >> now, it all started in 1938. the honorable joseph c wells really really loved chicken and waffles. he told his wife when we open a restaurant with that on the menu. and she said you like it everybody else don't like you. nobody will buy it.and he said give it away for free for a little while. so they started to give it away for free. the community fell in love with it. people started buying it. they are chicken and waffles all over the country! let's start with connie, this is one of the guys because it did not allow african-americans to go in and have a good time. they would have four shows a wonderful floor shows that were precursor to broadway hits a black and blue and so on. it is right here. on top of this you have also the lafayette theater. performers that would play the lafayette theater, they would all wait outside in front of that tree under the leaves of the tree hoping to get paid rubbing the bark of the tree as they look to get paid for their performances. and in 1941 they chop the tree down. several people were there, the mayor, there was a big ceremony.now guess where the stump of that tree exists? on the stage of the apollo theater. so when you go to the apollo theater yozi the performers come out. before they go to the microphone thereof the log. here we have 168 w. 133 street. this is known as -- it was a legendary speakeasy. it was located down the basement of this particular brownstone. now when i first started to do research on the speakeasy i went to schaumburg intend to read things. and they mention was 68 west 133 street. and they changed the name to the log cabin. so here i am at 133 street looking for 168. and i see the original log cabin still here. amazing! it is now a church as you can see. in 1933, the story goes that billie holiday came here to try out as a dancer. but unfortunately she was not the best dancer. when the club owners said you are not the best of dancers, why don't you try singing? she takes the microphone and she sings. and realized she is as beautiful unusual voice. and she is brought on to sing here more than once. she becomes a regular here and the great record producer john hammond from columbia records hears her and puts it on wax for the first time. so it is known that billie holiday got her start here. thank you.♪ ♪ [music] ♪ [music] ♪ [music] ♪ [music] ♪ [music] ♪ [music] ♪ [music] >> so herb boyd, james baldwin, would he recognize harlem today? >> i think so, parts of it. he was more interested in the people i think. i think that would capture his attention first and foremost. less to do with buildings and the general environmental changes in all of the communities. but he would be interested in talking to the people. and what are they saying and how they feel about different issues out there. i know the last time he visited harlem was like 1986. >> and he died in 1987. >> yes 87, the year before his death he came to harlem and had a series of interviews at that time. i think at least two interviews at that time with major publications.he talked about you know what are you seeing, what is different, what is new and how do you feel about things? he was expressing at that time he saw you know the general change that was going on in the community from housing standpoint, beyond the commercial. the commercial residential thing has always been an issue in harlem. he talked about gentrification. he was concerned about the gentrification at that time but he was always in a patient individual. he could see down the road and around corners like no other person. anticipated a letter changes that were coming in harlem at the time.and they were inevitable and there was little we can do about a lot of them. but more than anything peter i think he had a connection to sing the general attitude of people.and that, did that change from one generation? didn't feel a sense of outrage? he always thought that to be a black american is to be daily full of outrage in terms of what was going on with the treatment that we incurred in this country. but i think it was a combination of looking at this rate is not the same. i used to look down here is in this particular bookstore, it is no longer there. i am looking at this here big high-rise going on, and the apartment building where used to live.those things are immediately understood. you can see that, that is a change that strikes you right away. but even deeper than that is to find out the mood of the people. that is where change lives. >> you mentioned during the break that you know neil shoemaker. >> oh yeah. he is just a remarkable tour guide. someone who has really been in touch with that community in a way that he can transfer when he understands about harlem's history to a group of strangers. you know, people who have no idea what is going on. they may have a semblance of this or that in terms of an individual episode or an experience. but he has a way of elaborating on that and contextualizing it. making it live and breathe in a fresh way for people who have a spark of interest. if you have just a spark of interest, that is all he needs. he will ignite that. he has done it for my classes on several occasions. i teach a class and history of harlem and i often call on him and he is an expert on welcome as well. so he takes us to the various locations and hear the compliments and supplements what i do in the classroom. i am sure that the reviewers must have been very much entertained by the expanse of his knowledge and the way he conveyed that experience. >> who would you go to for a tour of your hometown in detroit? >> what individuals? i mean - >> is there a shoemaker out there? >> we have some shoemakers out there. matter of fact there is one young man so i hope to be in touch with who has done, jermaine jordan. he did a similar thing there detroit. go to the various landmarks you know, where frederick douglass met john brown, here is where vinnie's barn was in terms of the abolitionist and underground railroad. here is where fanny richards you know who was the first black schoolteacher, here is her marker out here on lafayette in regards. he has that down pat. there are a few others who i will turn to in my day-to-day conversations. i must be to dan aldrich every day. he has his finger on the pulse of things there. both politically and culturally. and that is important. you know sometimes you can have things political, but individuals have no understanding of the cultural arena.what is happening with the theater, what is happening with the literary or what is going on with the music? so to have someone like danny there who has this kind of comprehension and exhausted understanding of what is happening on a day-to-day basis in the city. it is very important because it keeps me abreast you know on the current developments there. because in black detroit, i thought of in fact to 1701.i go back to mr. cadillac himself. before you have the car and everything, right? is a long 300 year voice that i take with black detroit. but much of it is like history in the past and not so much the current. and that is where i rely on individuals like ron luckett who has of the northwest activity center they are or joann watson or charles - these are people that keep me abreast of what is going on. what is on folks mind other than what i can read in the metro times, the free press or keith owens or edwards have to say in the michigan chronicle. >> if you like to participate in our conversation this afternoon with altar peter slen 748-8200 and central eastern and 748-8201 in the mountain time zones. you can also contact us on social media. we will put those up as we go. let's talk to kristin in los angeles. you are on with herb boyd. >> hello professor herb boyd. thank you for your work. i am a phd candidate at ucla with an emphasis on african-american female intellectuals taking other back to david walker with meyer stewart. i'm curious beside your mother and your wife, if you can talk about women who have influenced you either historically in terms of their writings and or women that you were active with in terms of dealing with activism in terms of your life. >> and i do not know if you noticed kristin when we were playing some of herb boyd favorite books, one of those is daughters of africa edited by margaret busby. are you familiar with that? >> si also knows he put on their anything, which i have course echo. [laughter] >> all right, thank you. >> well, kristin do you have an hour? [laughter] i do a column each week and ultimately i go from significant black men and women that are unheralded. you need to know a little bit about. the current one if you get the news he can brody go online and check it out is a woman named fanny peck she was the wife of william peck who is a minister. they arrived in detroit in the 1920s. they got involved in the religious community. her claim to fame is that she is one of the instigators and founders of the housewives league. the national housewives league of america. and that is strawberry because of my william for many many years was a you know, she was a domestic servant. and of course, these housewives in terms of organizing themselves and beginning to make a mark you know because they were ignored by the union move and stuff like that how do we bring together our own issues? the very special demands that we can make. and fanny peck was in the leadership role of that. early we talked about fanny in terms of her being a pioneering educator in that country but what i do in the amsterdam news each week is that i go back and forth between important black woman, important black men. i have accumulated now a stack like that and they say herb you need to do that it would be a nice book. and you know the book ideas but i think it is important because we have to do that on a week to week basis. and you don't have to wait for a book to come out here but here are these individuals and i just, i am making these discoveries myself about a lot of black woman who just have been just tireless and unflinching. they are concerned about liberation, about the whole defeating, particularly the attack, the abuse, the domestic violence and barbara renzi has a book out there that i think is just extraordinary on ella baker. in terms of the role that she played with the civil rights movement. she is a very pivotal individual in bringing together so many ideas. across the years though, from a literary standpoint i can go all the way back to francis ellen watkins harper. colleen hopkins. you can go to neal hurston, and petri that did the book 116 street. all of the women around margaret alexander. and in terms of age of the sum of these women are brought to the forefront. one of my colleagues, mary helen washington out of detroit i mean, these - have is that we lost last year. and we talk about maya angelou, you say nothing, toni morrison right down to current crop of black women writers you know coming out of africa and to say nothing of jacqueline woodson was one of my colleagues you know at the harpercollins. so we have got these black women writers, thinkers and activists out there. and the whole black lives matter movement. these are very devoted, dedicated black woman who right at the epicenter and development of new concern about fighting for civil and human rights in our society. but we can see, there is a long history of that you know some of the black woman out there that i profile each week, whether they're coming from the political arena, cultural arena, whether they are in the literary or the artistic circles, we have been there. and they need to be a little bit more attention given to them. >> well, from your 2000 book autobiography of a people. he writes that if rosa parks was the mother of the civil rights movement than ella baker was the godmother. >> there you go! ella baker was just you know and professor - the kind of satellite of individuals around her. it is always important you know when you look at somebody and say this is the biography of so-and-so. when lewis talks about the boys, unite you want to know a little bit more about some of these other individuals that were in and around peter slen i think that's where some of it comes in for the better historians. they want to bring some of these significant individuals into the spotlight. and a little bit about the niagara movement. all about some of these other players you know who otherwise are unknown. you don't know anything about that. that is what gerald horne does so well.but it is beyond that. you know who are some of these, who is angelo herndon? you have the other individuals and is one of the ways you know and earlier color said something. you know peter in my life i have had i'm going to depart a little bit. i want to make my surrogate brothers get into this doctor john henry clarke is one and of course - the late percy ellis sutton and gordon parks. all of these individuals who i call my surrogate father is an opportunity to work with i mean he took one autobiography of a people, most gordon wrote the forward for that one. percy wrote the forward to the other book you mentioned in terms of the life and times of sugar ray robinson. and of course with ruby we did we shall overcome. in one take peter, that narration that accompanies the book, they did that in one take! it shows attend a professional that they can bring to a particular assignment. it was so funny because i would cover press conferences and all of these here the clambering, everything around -- the daily news and what have you. it was all over and people would say herb, give any questions? and they said what he is special attention? and is invested 10 amanda davis was. he was an insignificant reporter from the amsterdam news that singled out from all of these here other journalists out there but he had that kind of human touch about him and of course with gordon, doctor clark you know the last two years of doctor clark's life you know i was right there with him from 1996 to 1998. he had lost his fight but not his mission. we worked together on a book called the middle passage. which captures that holy spirit of being dragooned from out of africa and put on these slave ships and brought across the atlantic ocean. tom feeling spent 25 years -- and at the end of his days he approached doctor clark. by that time doctor clark had lost his vision and everything. so he called me up to work with him. i was just so blessed to have the opportunity to sit with doctor clark. he would put together 100 pages despite this he would put together 100 page manuscript where they would say this has to be trimmed down to 20 pages. so that was my responsibility to come in and work with him to kind of compress, condenses 100 page narrative he pulled together. the text for the book. and so that exists now as the middle passage for him. so doctor clark is one of my surrogate fathers along with gordon and percy. >> let's hear from crane in louisiana. good afternoon to you. >> good afternoon and thank you so much professor herb boyd for all of the work you have done. i have a fun question for you. what are your top three bucket list items and tell us why? >> the top three? don't do that to me. >> what is on your bucket list these days? >> oh my goodness! that's right insane. i mean - let's see. first and foremost is that we have a book out called black detroit. and at the top of that list is to make sure that i make all the rounds they are in human living in such a very interesting and absolutely thrilling way an author often dreams appeared and i appreciate that i have had such a team around me certainly near the - they volunteer their services spread the word. that is so hard lifting and reporting to know that that kind of reception is occurring. so if i have a bucket list of the top it is to make sure of that i live up to what my team is doing and making his appearances. the book signing, we get quite a few coming up. and i'm back to detroit again. >> were you going to be? >> three different locations beginning with the museum. the african-american museum there and of course then doing anything with the book festival. that is the first event on 16 july. then on the 18th i will be at the museum talking about the 50 year anniversary of the rebellion of 67 and probably the most, the largest of that would be on the 20th i will be at the northwest activity center there in conversation with rochelle riley was economist at the free press. we have an opportunity on those three different dates to spread the word, get the book out there and then after that down the trail is a bunch of other appearances i have to make. permitting -- promoting the book is the top concern i have at this point. then after that you know you started about other book projects. my goodness! i have at least three i am working on now including a book on the harlem renaissance i'm doing for third world press. to celebrate their 50th anniversary of the press. and -- was an outstanding activist in the harlem community. the foundation, they asked me to edit a collection of his writings and what a phenomenal writer and activist he was. probably understood affairs like nobody's business in this country. he was very close to gil noble. his television show, like it is. so working on that book as well as trying to put together the day-to-day activities with the amsterdam news. that continues to be top. and that i have my classes! i have to deal with my students and i love my students. i am hoping that we come back in the fall, i am not sure my situation is going to be. because the book is getting such attention. i never thought that you can go home again and such a fantastic way peter. i was concerned about that. in doing a book on black detroit because i left in 1985 in one way.and the same when it baldwin left harlem in one way. but in another way you can never leave. you know you take that cultural and political and baggage with you no matter where you go. and there was just a matter of going back and flushing out those memories. you know somebody says how long did it take you to write that book? and i say i have been writing this book my whole life. and it has been accumulating there just waiting in the back. waiting for an opportunity to spring forward and to have like an editor like tracy and an agent like marie and a wife like elsa, it made the possibilities absolutely imminent. so there i am! >> 'slisten to a viewer in detroit. this is jean in detroit. >> hello. how are you? thank you c-span for coming to detroit. i hope it is not too long when you come back again. herb boyd, and he never talked a lot about the classes at wayne state. i was one of your former students and if you can, you can elaborate a little more on that. but i would really like you to talk about the league of revolutionary black workers. they finally got the news about some of the current things happening in detroit, particularly with the foreclosures, the water shut offs the grand theft bargain some of us are calling. and funds from the rest the city to the midtown downtown. and i want to thank you so much. >> two things gene. [inaudible] >> it has been closed a long time. i am currently a real estate agent and on the board of directors for the detroit association of realtors. we have been pressing half for the old ordinance to be reenacted. it has been on the books for 30 years. -- >> gene given detroit's renaissance and some would say, how is business for a real estate agent? >> it depends on what color you are and what company you work for. and where it is you are doing your business. if it is beyond 7.2 is pretty lousy. -- is currently being invested by -- if you are inside of the 7.2 are in the suburbs and the complexion is good for business can be adequate. >> thank you, sir. >> well, and another part of gene's resume, beyond being a former student but a very active cause. in the 1967 to about 1977. a 10 year period in which he was actively engaged in bringing about change in detroit, principally, as the editor of the south and newspaper there, he picked up where john watson and harry clark and art johnson has done previously and gave it that same kind of outlook. you know workers and one class conscious worker, that is a slogan or model. gene carried on tradition and made the paper resonate beyond the campus and connecting it with the community.the same time i try to straddle into what they say in the grassroots and the foot in the ivory tower. make sure that these communities come together and gaining the wealth of the resources that it could bring and gene was on the front line of the. he was on the ramparts of the struggle in those days and i have appreciated his friendship over the years as i appreciate his call today because he has to resurrect a few things and of course i have a pretty extensive discussion of that in black detroit. matter of fact old visit gene talked about as far as black studies at wayne state university, because it was a hotbed of political activism. on the way back to the 60s with - that is a swahili word for -- this was both pertinent on campus and off-campus. many ended up being part of the revolutionary union movement, revolutionary black workers. all of these here concentration the work of activism. when i worked at dodge made many individuals who later on became preventable leaders of the league, where my workers. i worked with them at the plant. moving around dodge main particularly general baker and chuck and ron. then they hooked up with other people and of course a number of very important women. helen jones, russell and all of these individuals that were involved in the movement of the time. jean cunningham was in that mix. so all of the things he is talking about i am sure he can put together a very interesting narrative on his life and his connection with some of these here very pivotable movements at that time. >> list here from clayton and las vegas. >> i want to thank you for all of the work you do. one thing i want to mention. i would like you to elaborate on this. in my opinion, why a gentleman that belongs there on the mount rushmore if you will of the black struggle in america would help to bring about change and i have not heard anyone. >> guest: this yet. barry gordy junior. in work that was done at motown records. whatever you think about detroit you had to think about motown.and malcolm was the front lines during which he was, martin luther king certainly give his life. i think motown records and the music and the political statements, they change market music than people realize. there was a certain activism and i think as a nation, moton was on west grand boulevard. as time went on music was nice and every wanted to dance in there was a time where the white people physically in the south, the parents would not let their kids by the records so barry was smart at that he would put cartoons in different pictures and things on album covers that were not the artists because the parents would not know that they will black artists. and later on to 67 and 68, no society is changing and things are becoming more - will rise and assassinations they never comes marvin gaye, stevie wonder, all the people started to do political songs. and in the midst of the turmoil of the 60s, you can turn on that television tonight you will see that supremes, temptations in the fourth house. they were reaching out to change the society and i have been fortunate to travel around the world. i'm an entertainer. and i performed in over 70 countries and i've done a lot of motown tributes on speed i've gone to countries where people could not even speak english but they know the words to my girl and what is going on and smokey robinson is music and stevie and marvin and your first conduction to the struggle in america came to the music. there was so enthralled with the music they wanted to find out more about the artist and then they found out that they were black people from detroit and it led to the struggle that black people all over america were going through. especially in the south. and i would like to hear your opinion on the influence of him and montana. >> before you hang up, tell us your full name and what kind of entertaining you do. >> my name is clint hooker. i was born in 1958, i am in entertainment. i have been on broadway, shows invisible spirit i sang with some of the motown acts. particularly with some temptations groups. as years went on, they were a turnover of people. the former members would have their own tribute groups. people like chadwick damon harris and dennis edwards. that is what i do. >> are you working in vegas right now? >> yes, sir. i've done many shows in vegas. i still perform to this day. i still travel around the world to this day. everywhere i go, i've been all over africa, australia, new zealand, japan, malaysia. i've been all around the world. i've been to europe more times i can count. but one thing is whenever i go anywhere, you are to save his people show up with these t-shirts and the big afros. motown is just so big it is like the elephant in the room and nobody talks about with the civil rights. barry gordy had an album of martin luther king's -- many people don't know he had a label specifically designed for those spoken word records. not music. i'm so proud of it but doctor boyd i would like to hear you speak on this. >> as soon as you finish. herb boyd. thank you clayton. >> smokey robinson, i get what he was saying. i second that emotion. i think he stressed very well, the articulation layer in the energy and enthusiasm is compelling. >> we should tell him that there's a picture of barry gordy's former home in your book. >> 918 boston boulevard. check it out. love detroit, i capture a lot of the. maybe not as expensive as some of the other things because there has just been done and done and done again. i think the color is exemplary of that in terms of people understanding the importance of motown. obviously, some of those things he is mentioned have not been absorbed as they should be in terms of the label and the concern. but even with film, going beyond after the left detroit in 1972 and got involved in hollywood, unit with the whole mahogany with diana ross. all of that is an important part of the legacy in history. i do not go into too much of that since it has been done so well elsewhere. particularly like marvin gaye, with divided soul, i think it is still one of the most important books because even i you are talking about marvin gaye you are talking about a number of other elements about motown also. and what it meant in terms of how he pulled that together. how barry gordy, what he did to be loved was a very important autobiography that barry did. and it is hard to get past that. you know you can maybe cut into some of those sections where you know he did not fully can find some gaps in their and feed into it. and maybe express your own particular experience as the car has done in terms of understanding the evolution of motown records. >> email.alvin brown. mr. boyd when we speak about the thoughts, words and deeds of key people in our history and our times, and difficulty conveying and relating to the knowledge because i've learned of them through their deeds and my personal observations of them. how can you differentiate between what those people do as human beings and what they expound upon and list as the core of the organizations ideals, sort of like people saying do what i say, forget what i do. also relate this to what rappers and hip-hop people are promoting which is a promotion also of gang lifestyle and black on black violence. >> i need two hours. it is a very interesting and complicated. the question. i do not know if i can do any justice in this short amount of time but let me say this about in terms of commitment, what they say in terms of word and deed. those for me are inseparable. someone says no we talk about the example of malcolm's life. he is someone who that his house wasfirebombed but nonetheless had made a commitment . >> on c-span2, television for serious readers. here's our prime time lineup. at 8 p.m. eastern, psychiatrist elizabeth ford discusses caring for inmates in new york city jails and examines the intersection of mental health and the criminal justice system. then at nine, it's the robert caro prize forliterary excellence in the writing of history. at 9:30, michael corda, former editor-in-chief of simon & schuster, recalls the evacuation of over 300,000 allied troops from dun kirk, france, in 1940. on booktv's "after words" program at 10 p.m., temple university professor heath davis examines gender identity in an interview with sarah ellis, glaad president and ceo. and at 11, henry olson looks at the policies of presidents franklin d. roosevelt and ronald reagan. that all happens tonight on c-span 2's booktv. [inaudible conversations] [applause] >> good morning, and welcome to the national press club. jo

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