to run stains? >> i was either a drug user from a dealer or a millionaire from cambridge. can i ask you now about the question of photographs was it ever considered an acceptable practice to steal a photograph to print a news of the world? >> yes. looking for it now. luckily i wasn't in that. anyway, and was a difficult job in a dangerous job. islamic you may not wish to hold that one up. islamic a little early for that. >> this is only paper. >> perhaps you can tell us how the news of the world got ahold of that photograph. >> really obscure photographer who published the circulation magazine to the fashion world said that's pretty good and copied it with my camera and both of them are going back into the editor then said we've got this here is naomi campbell topless and sarkozy's wife and never in a million years because that kind of thing and he said [inaudible] so we did that and then pay for them at the other 1i held up was the mistress. >> you describe your role in the matter is that can you tell us in broad terms how news of the world attain a photograph of the alleged mistress? >> sent to france because they try to track down the woman who took the verge india while the but we couldn't get a picture of who with her new boyfriend. the idea was he treated in the british prime minister and i think they were in the house in the than the copyright and i read a timer that the brooks said mo we are not and he said no well done, put it in the paper which is what we did. but it was in france so it was a legislature that comes under. >> can i ask about the arrangement for the payment that were made with the sources did you ever come across where they were the information taken the source wasn't paid? >> all the time, yeah in fact i did a story about two girls and a bubble bath with robert deniro and one of the most foolish enough to tell me all about that and getting pictures without signing a photograph you promise someone to grant or 20 or whatever, to me for a spread in two or three for a page lead. because we didn't pay her the bonus for the of the source of the story but we have a story already that's why it is so useful for people who need to approach the newspapers that kind of story even though he takes a very large cut. >> is it right that the news of the world to encourage people to come forward in the story in exchange for money? >> yes that there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. i used to see if we didn't have the 15 feature writers we would have to million reporters because either the news desk or use of the world the phone would ring up all the time every few minutes and we saw victoria walking in can i have timber and? cannot have ten grand? the british public would supply us a vast majority of sources is what they wanted to read and what they gave to us and found a way. >> i would like to do with the payment and especially clear to you i'm not asking you to tell me about anything you personally might have done but are you aware of the news of the world that came to police officers for information? i don't think much of the british police forces. there are no sherlock holmes among them and i would prefer to stick my surveillance there and outside and get some dirt on him as a member of the establishment to be ridiculed and locked down the and to get into bed with the police and a couple of times i have been sent on stories from the crime and policemen you have to have relationships to risk the career by giving a story that is when to make it again and gramm for the page lead ten me before a spread and that's the risk. for some stories that is a lot. for example the whereabouts were worth much more than that so maybe if one phone calls as indeed we got from one of the bodyguards that yes they will be landing at the helsinki airport this afternoon have 30,000 lbs. please i need to pay the mortgage? yes because that was a defining story about the link but yes it was a good way of getting the best stories which the british public left out. islamic you told us in the things about the security because i rewind for a moment to the police do you have any feeling based on the extent to which police officers are prepared to accept money in return for information? >> not as much as they did but now it's very difficult to offer pretty much anything. it was the correct time and they got progressively harder to get information from the police unless it was an official way. but the one who might be referring to the daughter came from a policeman who was paid and i wrote that story that was the cry -- crime guy that facilitated. >> can i ask you now in your experience as a journalist of workers paid by a newspaper you have worked hermetically confidential them permission? >> when i joined about two years prior to that there was a girl whose name i can't remember. she specialized medical records. there is a difference between you answering the phone to a receptionist who has just for example seeley positive pregnancy test because what you can't put your fingers in your years there is a difference paying someone to go into that record so did we do that? there was that medical record i haven't thought much about that question. i wasn't told. rebekah brooks door was always open. >> perhaps i can ask an ethical question however the information comes to you if it is confidential medical information the story published is there a difference? >> if the story is published, is there an ethical difference? >> again, my feeling is that, you know, i'm a journalist. i am there to catch people who lie to us. and any means would be fine to me. i would have no problem at all if the target was worth it, at looking at someone's medical records and i can't remember if i have or if i haven't, but i have to say i haven't because i would be implicating myself. the end end just justify minds. if you don't get you get a pulitzer prize. if you get caught you get sent to prison. i don't know where you're going with that question. >> are you aware of any newspapers that you have worked for paying for information from credit card companies? >> yeah. i'm fairly sure at the start there were p.i.'s who were able to track people's credit histories or where they've been with credit cards, again, a vague recognition of something i haven't thought about particularly, but, again, i see nothing wrong with knowing, for example, if the governor of the bank of england has huge debts because that might be relevant in the way he operates in his job and something worth publicizing, for example. >> that's twice you've given the same sort of example. rule over us now and now the governor of the bank of england. >> yeah. >> do you distinguish because a moment ago you were talking about a celebrity. >> yes. >> this is the whole point about circulation and the public getting what the public wants. they want that because the circulation stays high, therefore, it is what the public want to read and i think the public are clever enough to be the judge and jury of what goes on in the newspapers and they don't need an external judge and a jury to decide what should and shouldn't be published because if they had any distaste for it, they stop buying >> they may not. but what about the person who is the victim? too bad? >> the ordinary people who buy the product set themselves up for in a sense being the victim also. there really is no massive difference between an ordinary man or woman, a celebrity or a -- you know, someone who rules over us because it all sales the product. it is clear this is what the british public want to read. there is a taste for it. there is a market for it. so -- >> i understand. >> yeah. >> the same sort of question in relation to telephone companies. are you aware of any of the newspapers that you have worked for paying for information from -- for example, british telecom or for a mobile phone company? >> that was more the kind of tricks that news corp. got into. the people we employed were more into blogging and trick people out of their pin codes. i mean, that's why glenn made so much money because so much reason he was really good at that. >> moving then to the question of private investigators, how extensive, in your experience, was the use of private investigators by the "news of the world"? >> it was too expensive. i spent 5 years as a features reporter and then as soon as i made deputy features editor, i was suddenly confronted with the budget that rebekah brooks had before me and i really couldn't believe it. in some points we paid steve 5,000 pounds. so we really need to be doing this and the answer was, actually, most of the time we didn't. and it was just the laziest reporters who would make the most number of phone calls to the p.i.'s because they didn't want to go to middlesboro. they had agencies to do it for him and the p.i. to turn the plates around. all they really needed was someone to drive up there in a car to follow whoever it was who we suspected of wrongdoing rather than waste all this money on unnecessary detail. like i said, i would never want to ring anybody until i spent a week in a van outside the house and you're going to tip them off. if they're unsuspecting, you got a much better chance for a kiss on a doorstep or whatever else you're looking for. i tried to rein in. but other than that, i wanted to know exactly what they were doing. so i demanded the blogs what they were doing. how do you do it? now they didn't want to answer because it was in their interest not exactly to tell me how to, you know, obtain a pin number for mobile phone because that's where they were making their money. and finally -- and i said i'm paying you for that tape, send it in. when i listened to some of the tapes, they were awful. they were so much worse than anything i could have done and i thought who are these people? and you look more closely under who a private investigator is, is he a failed professional footballer and in one case he was a helz angel and steve had a pedigree and was quite respectable in a sense. excuse me. [coughing] >> so i stopped using the hells angel as soon as i used the tape. and i thought this is really going to get us in trouble and what a lot of trouble it did get us into. >> what sort of trouble did you get the hell's angel was going to get you into? >> well, he was so bad by it. he was being paid for us for doing a lot of unnecessary things, that was a waste of money and no good could come of it. and much as i tried to rein it in and put a bit of a break on it, there were other parts of the newspaper, i believe it on the side of news of pressing the accelerator and i lay the blame there with andy coulson. >> and can you give us an occasion of the number of different private investigators that you were aware were being used? >> well, they sort of came and went. i remember one of my colleagues did a mail shot to nearly every private investigative firm in britain. i spent an afternoon at a private investigator's conference saying, listen, sometimes your clients are going to have stories that, you know, the wife might want to get revenge by also selling it to the "news of the world" which makes him another 10,000 pounds so we did actively regret private investigators. and most private investigators will have one good story on their books, maybe once a year or maybe once every two years but if you tap out 50, then, you know, it wasn't -- it was quite a good way to go. >> did the sunday express use private investigators as well? >> we used a private investigator who was totally legitimate and i think was married to a police officer and knew exactly were the boundaries were and never stepped over them. and didn't commit any illegal acts. >> going back to the "news of the world," can you give the inquiry an indication about the range of different tasks that were required of private investigators? >> one of the hardest things is when you're working to a deadline and you need to get an interview, you just want to know where that person is so you can drive to their house and knock on the door. and it's quite hard, in the old days when i worked for fleet street news agency, we used to go to the records office, get a marriage certificate, and get the name have the first husband, you know, the maiden name and the mother. the private investigator can do that in just about 10 minutes it's just kind of amazing and they triangulate where the most likely address is. and we got this one, the mother lives here and i'm almost certain he's here and he drives there and that's good. that's legal. that's using computer technology you can buy off the shelf. it's quite expensive and it's quite hard to operate it effectively but the good legitimate private investigators can, you know, spin around an address in a matter of minutes. and they're worth paying because the deadline's going and someone else is going to get there before you. >> you give the impression that it was for reasons of efficiency. would that be right as opposed to -- >> yes. is in front trying to find a method of obtaining information that was perhaps at one step removed from the journalist? and, therefore, deniable to some extent? >> you're going to have to be more specific. >> was there any sense that if you -- i use you for "news of the world." if "news of the world" commissioned a private investigator to do something, that if dodgy means were used, it could be blamed on the investigator and not on the journalist? >> yeah. i can see that being one step away from it. yeah, i can't cross that but equally i think there was -- that was a mistake that some of my colleagues have made and that is why there is a paper trail that links them directly and say as an investigator, with some experience, i didn't need to go down the route. i felt a lot more comfortable using my own blokes. i was the only one who knew about it. i didn't have to pay for it. there was no paper trail that led to anything that i had done. and i think the decent investigators of the "news of the world" the only thing you will get on him unless i was sitting here i laugh at the police when they say come in or we're going to arrest you tomorrow at scotland yard. you haven't got anything because i know what i did and i know who i might have paid to do things and i wouldn't have paid -- been so stupid to have paid someone to do something illegal is then going to bill me for it. you know, so i don't think you're going to get people like myself or mazza like that at all because they never do an illegal act anyway. some people did have that philosophy, let's put it one step away. >> turning to a new topic at pursuing celebrities, do you have any experience at pursuing celebrities in cars? >> yeah, yes. >> and was that a common tabloid tactic? >> yeah. we had -- at the "news of the world," we had a set of cars that we could switch and swap around. i mean, you can park outside of paul mccartney's on wednesday but if said car is on there on thursday, it's quite handy to mix and match. yeah, i absolutely loved giving chase to celebrities. it was -- before diana died, you know, it was such good fun. how many jobs can you actually have car chases in. it was great. >> and afterwards? >> yeah. >> could you speak up, please. >> there was a change. i mean, all "news of the world" photographers had to go to work wearing a suit. and we were quite clear in distancing ourselves from the paparazzi, but, no, i would be told by the features department, take a fast car, see what you can get. >> was any consideration given to safety when pursuing a celebrity? >> quite often the celebrities would absolutely love it. i'll give an example of brad pitt who we've been doing more recently. i mean, he's got a big chopper, a big motor boat. i mean, his wife gave him a ducati for his birthday present and he would come out and being in the south of france, there's about 15 paps. that is his status of the number 1 star and he's not one to complain about it. and another one there's 15 paps outside of his house and he would be on his chopper hey, guys, let's go. and have a laugh and that was his sport for the evening. he had a very positive attitude towards that aspect of the job, which was a whole lot of fun. wae proper thing to do? spigot think it was fun from both sides. >> do you have any experience of journalists searching through people's rubbish to find information for stories? >> whether or not this is legal. estimate there is no need to tell us about your own involvement. what we are interested at this stage is whether or not the practice went on. >> i think most journalists, and the included will find the content incredibly interesting. it gives you a great starting point. is it illegal to go through someone's rubbish? even in the 90's. >> what i'm saying is there is no need for -- what you did and what i would like to know is whether the information as to the best of your knowledge. >> yes. >> covert surveillance. >> i was trying to get a cocaine smuggling ring in i remember i got to know the smugglers quite well and i was sitting among them into the old days they had to recorders and sometimes a battery pack strapped to his back and a wider going appear to the video into the two guys that would knife let the job with a hat. i remember i was getting close to the end of the tape and i knew i'd been there about 45 minutes and i was waiting for the kick and i had to get out of their and i should carry on the was like a test and they put a lot of cocaine and that. [inaudible] it was an extreme state of society and panic and i was being tested and that's the kind of pressure that you are under when you are doing investigations. it's not easy. you can't just go up to someone and say you smuggle a lot of cocaine? you can't. you have to be more clever than that. >> we understand the need for covert activity in those circumstances. >> to the is in relation to celebrities. >> presumably without the same. >> i must admit after my closest your experience i felt i am not getting paid enough to do this, to get killed. the most dispiriting thing in my life was when i was embedded in the force and they gave me a joking leader and i was really enjoying and remember writing a page in the times once and pieces for the telegraph and i thought this is great i hope i can stay a long time. they are not doing very well can you come back? >> i'm on a satellite phone can i come back to london? i suppose i lost my taste for the british public who now seem to have turned against journalists somewhat. >> with engaging in the covert celebrities was there any consideration as to whether or not it was an ethically proper thing to do? >> absolutely. hugh grant puts on makeup and then complains about that. i don't want to talk about my privacy. sienna miler, what does she do? she has a crummy phill -- film out. euskadi to read a series of articles for the inquirer on robert patton some and i can't believe there was sienna miler. egoi. no, the joke i need to hugh grant when he walked him the title was i've never heard of sienna miler until she started going about her privacy and it's the same with hugh grant. the pictures i took a hammer hard to sell and i might have a device him your career will do that all of a sudden ten times the number of photographers are outside his house. .. >> it happens with katie price. i missed her going to the hair dressers and she knew i missed her she had a umbrella down. and i saw her going to a hairdressers and hello, katie and i had been nice and she came out of the hairdressers and i was going to -- she gave me the finger through the hairdresser's door. and i went thanks, love. and i sold it for two grand and she knew exactly what she was doing. i missed her and she knew, oh, dabble, i've gone to the air dressers without being papped and she came out and gave me the bird and i give you another example in