The lives and careers of several family members including Grover ClevelandVice PresidentAdlai Stevenson and twotime democratic democratic illinois governor Adlai Stevenson second. This originally aired in 1996 and its about an hour. Cspan jean h. Baker, author of the stevensons a biography of an american family, whats the scope of this book . Guest well, its pretty broad and its a long book but it covers a lot of stevenson generations. And it also focuses on the most important, in some ways, of all the stevensons. And thats Adlai Ewing Stevenson ii, who lived from 1900 to 1965 and, of course, was the losing democratic president ial candidate in 1952 and 1956. It took me a long time to do and i really was trying hard to look at layers of stevensons and different views of family life, etc. , and not only do just a political biography of some of the best known stevensons. Cspan did you ever meet any of them . Guest yes, i did. The most prominent stevensons that i met were Adlai Stevenson iis sister, thats buffie stevenson ives who was really an indomitable figure and shes the one i think who was partially responsible for the fact that the stevenson archive now numbers about 700 boxes of material. I guess every family has someone that cares about the past and she kept her brothers image alive. And one way she did it is to keep all of the records. She died at 97 in 1994. And the other stevenson that im grateful for his time and his insights was Adlai Stevenson iii. Illinoians know him as their senator during the 1970s. And he returned to illinois in 1980 and ran two losing campaigns against jim thompson in 82 and 86. And now hes retired from politics. Cspan theres a chart in the front of the book, if i can find and show the audience, of the family tree. Guest yeah. Cspan has this ever been done before, by the way . I circled the stevensons here. Guest well, in terms of Family History, i dont think this has been done. There are people whove done genealogies and genealogies are really interesting to do because the minute you start to do them, you realize that youre leaving a whole lot ofa number of folks out. Ive already had some calls from some stevensons who want me to help them with some of the aspects of their genealogy. The point about all this is that the original stevensonsthere were seven brothers, who came to the United States in the 18th century so when they multiply, then you have legions and legions of stevensons who live all across the country now. Cspan where did they come from . Guest well, they came originally from scotland, from the lowlands in scotland and life got pretty dour and tough over there so then they went to scotlandexcuse me, to ireland, and theyre part of this big migration that comes to the United States in the 18th century; comes into pennsylvania and then works its way by means of the great philadelphia road down into the south. And each generation moves on. I mean, this is a really american story, this scotsirish migration. And then these people in turn populate areas of the south. And in a critical decision for the stevensons when they were living in kentucky, they chose to move into the free state of illinois. And, of course, their Family History would have been entirely different had they stayed in the south, or even gone farther west into slaveholding states. Cspan what are we seeing right here on this cover . Guest this is a view of bloomington, which is the town. Cspan illinois. Guest bloomington, illinois, not indiana. I found that when i was going out to bloomington a great deal that that was always a big question in the airport. are you going to indiana or are you going to illinois . this is the town that they moved to when they left kentucky and they stayed there for generations. Buffie ives maintained the old family house until she died and this is a really important part of the stevensons story. Its certainly something that Adlai Stevenson ii depended on. He always talked about how in illinois, quiet reason abounded and there was less of the passion that he felt on the east coast. And so this location was really important for them. And i think thats one reason why it turns up on the cover of the book. Cspan when did you get interested in this . Guest about eight years ago it was a project that really interested me because the stevensons opened up some private papers. And in the process of doing that, they afford a historian this sort of longitudinal look so that you can begin with a familya family thats living in north carolinaand then you can trace them all the way up to 1996. But youre not only looking at their public lives, youre also looking at their private lives, and im convinced that the feminists have it right, that the personal is the political and the political is personal. And if youre really going to understand public figures, youve got to know what their background is, what their personality is and what their personal turmoils, etc. , are. Cspan let me work back. Adlaiyouthe last that you say is that in the fall of 1994, Adlai Ewing Stevenson v was born. Guest yes. Cspan where is he . Guest well, he lives in illinois but hes not ready to enter politics. I thinkhes what . A twoyearold. Adlai ewing stevenson iv also lives in illinois and i dont think that theres ahe has much interest in entering politics. So, i mean, this is one of the themes of the book, that we look at the stevenson family always, for generations, so interested in public life, and what we see now is a family, like many, many americans, less interested in Party Politics and more interested in other aspects of life. Adlai stevenson iv has for part of his career been interested in communications. Cspan where does he live . Guest he lives outside of chicago. Cspan and his father, Adlai Stevenson iii, held what offices . Guest he was a senator during the 1970s, but before that he did his political apprenticeship in state politics. I think this is sort of funny because this is something that his father never did. His father, as you remember, really began his political offices as a candidate for the highest office in illinois, and that was the governorship. And along comes thishis son and his son works really hardhes a state delegate in springfield and then he runs for state treasurer. These are hardcore local issues. His father who, of course, died in the middle ofthe beginning of adlai iiis careerwas always telling him, start at the top. Dont get involved at all in local politics. but adlai thought differently and in many ways he was a much better formed and shaped politician. He knew politics in a way, i think, that his father simply didnt. Cspan let me read you some quotes that you have in the book, from Adlai Stevenson iii, the senator who left the senate in what year . Do you remember . Guest 1980. Cspan 1980. he remains gloomy about our democracy which, quote, as we practice it, is not conducive to a candidates celebration or the peoples confidence. To succeed, democracy must inform and exhort the public to some high and common purpose. Now it seems paralyzed by timidity and partisan bickering. guest there it is. Thats the stevenson ethic. Adlai stevenson iii learned politics at his fathers knee and he admired his father greatly, and should. But its this idea of the declension, the contamination of american Party Politics that the stevensons see and its certainly something that stevenson iii saw when he was running against jim thompson in illinois. The stevensons really stand for this idea that politics should be issue oriented, that it shouldnt involve 30second sound bites and that it never should be negative. This is absolutely flipping upside down, perhaps, what we have today. But all the stevensons worry about our democracy. They are very big on the vision thing. and some people have asked me what Adlai Stevenson ii would be like if he had been elected president , and i think he would have been a insofar as vision is concerned. And to some extent, his son, as well. These are people who are looking ahead and looking to the future and the immediacy of winning campaigns is less interesting to them than what they perceive as the longrange interests of their country. Cspan where does Adlai Stevenson iii live . Guest he lives on a farm in westernnear galena. And he also lives in chicago. This is, by the way, one of the things that came up during one of his campaigns against jim thompson, that when he had a riding accident, he lived so close to the iowa border that he was taken to a hospital in iowa and this, some illinoians felt, was un patriotic. But hes a very active guy. Hes interested in Economic Issues and, again, longrange issues of organizing the American Economy so that we can compete with the japanese. And hes a thoughtful and interesting man. I think its too bad that hes out of politics. Cspan when did you last spend time with him . Guest oh, about a year ago. Cspan and how much did you interview him . Guest oh, i must have interviewed him about four or five times. Cspan theres some more quotes here. You said, he soon found mostly private ways to serve the public in a system corrupted by, quote, cheap and easy popular answers; unfunctioning government at risk of producing a gray, shapeless mediocrity, unquote. in his political obituary, he condemned, quote, professional politicians who have surrendered to the media and to Public Relations experts and cosmeticians, the actors and managers who have taken over from the statesmen. now. Guest yeah. Cspan . Weve had a lot of talk about that in the last couple years. Guest yeah. Cspan how long ago did he say that . Guest excuse me . Cspan how long ago did he say this . Guest well, he said this during the campaigns against thompson. But the problem with saying that is that its hard to live that. It seems to me that sometimes politics in the midst of these campaigns, you cant help but go down toif thats the right wordwhat your opponents doing. And so at thein the last campaign, stevenson iii had, in fact, hired a Public Relations expert. Now i know he would never use makeup, but still this is a guy that whenwhenits hard to move back from the immediacy of campaigns when your opponent is a very savvy politician and who is throwing a few stilettos in your back. Cspan did you ever meet Adlai Stevenson ii . Guest no. No, i did not. Cspan did you ever hear him speak . Guest ive heard him speak, yes. Inand i must say that thats one of the things that im sorriest about. Ive talked to so many people who knew him and most of them say pretty much the same things about him. This is guy whowhile i think some people would interpret his career a little bit differently than i have, this is a guy who everybody liked. This is a guy who was mourned by his friends when he dropped dead in the street in london in 1965, for the pleasure of his company this is a guy who i think was as quick with a quip as anybody that weve ever had in American Public life. Now i dont know that we admire politicians for that but sometimes i think its worth noting that this perhaps is the recognition of a quick mind and a worthy spirit. Cspan how long was Adlai Stevenson ii married . Guest Adlai Stevenson was married for 20 years and then he and his wife, Ellen Borden Stevenson, were divorced. This is sort of a sad episode in stevensons life. After their divorce, Ellen Borden Stevenson became more and more upset with her life, more and more jealous of her husbands notoriety. And this is areally unhappy chapter in stevenson family annals as she deteriorated into what i would call telephone harassment of her sons. She would call them up and ask them for money and this is hard going in the context of a family that wanted very much to keep up its respectability. Cspan as a matter of fact, im showing a picture there of bear, as he was called by his father, and his parents at libertyville. Guest yes. Yes. Cspan but there are some quotes, youre talking about ellen. Guest yes. Yes. Cspan . Who was the mother of three. Guest mother of three sons. Cspan the senator that weve seen 80. Guest yes. Yes. Cspan you betray me. Im losing my honor. I was your mother, remember . I loved you once. If i go broke, ill go broke on my own. I dont want to be on the dole. She swore at young adlai, whom she called my most evil son guest yeah, this is really hard to take, dont you think . Cspan how do you find all that . I mean, where did you get the material . Guest these are Court Records. There was a conservatorship hearing and the three boys went into courtand ellens mother as wellwent into court to take her assets away from her. And so there are Court Records that have transcripts of these bitter calls. Adlai stevenson had introduced them into the evidenceinto the records as evidence of the fact that his mothers Mental Health was deteriorating and that her assets should be protected. But even after that episode, and you know, as an outsider, you always make these judgments and you wonder whether youre right i think there are some things that the stevensons might have done to alleviate some of Ellen Borden Stevensons unhappiness, but nonetheless, this is a terrible problem that they had throughout most of their lives. And the senator was always the son with whom his mother tangled with. They were always fighting with each other. Cspan what jobs did Adlai Stevenson ii have in his life . Guest well, he was a lawyer and like his father, he didnt really much like the law. It was an avenue into politics. And the minute he had an opportunity, thats what he did he ran for thea state delegates post. In a famous illinois election in 1964, in which there areit was called the bedsheet ballot. and the Illinois Legislature is unable to reapportion itself so everybodys on the ballot; 266 names and voters have to make these intelligent choices. And if youve got a name like Adlai Stevenson, or if youre Dwight Eisenhowers brother, earl eisenhower, then you have a lot of name recognition and you win. So he moved pretty quickly into politics. He was very ambitious about what he might do. Cspan and he was governor of illinois how many terms . Guest oh, i was talking about the son who became senator. Cspan im sorry. Guest . For times. Cspan but thetwo. Guest Adlai Stevenson ii, this gets very difficult when you talk to people about whowhich Adlai Ewing Stevenson is being referred to. Adlai stevenson ii also was a lawyer and but had this call. I dont think theres any other way to put ityoure called into public duty. He went to washington and worked in the new deal. And then he went back to chicago and he really wasnt very happy about being a lawyer in chicago and then he had various jobs in the un. And itsthe un sawsuited adlai and he it. And then he became governor of illinois and thats the only Elective Office that he ever had. Cspan you do notice as you read your book that there were a lot of other women in his life. Guest yes, you do notice that, dont you . Cspan yes, you do. Andit isheres a picture of marietta tree. What was there relationship . Guest well, very close. And there were other women. But in the last days of his life, it was marietta tree who was closest to Adlai Stevenson. They shared a lot of interests. She was a wonderful woman. And i think that they had a good time together. But there were other women. One of the things that is a little bitwell, again, to make a judgmentdisturbing about stevenson, is that hes a man of utmost probity butand respectability. But nonetheless, i think its pretty clear that he was having an affairnot with marietta tree, but before he was divorced from Ellen Borden Stevenson. Cspan with . Guest well, an unknown unnamed woman who will be unnamed. But there are a wholethere are a whole lot of other women that he had affairs with. Cspan what was hiswho was agnes meyer . Guest agnes meyer was his surrogate mother. She was Eugene Meyers wife and really an outstandingly provocative woman. Cspan is that Katherine Grahams mother . Guest yes, thats right. And her husband, eugene meyer, was busy with the post and all of his investments. And agnes meyer took a liking to Adlai Stevenson and he to her. And she used to give him advice about how he should love politics more. Stevenson always had this sort of offish view toward mixing with the people and it was agnes meyer who replaced Adlai Stevensons everloving mother, suffocating mother, and gave him all of this advice about how he should behave as a politician. And she played a very Important Role in his life. There are lots of women that played Important Roles in Adlai Stevensons life. Cspan who is jane dick . Guest jane dick was a friend from lake forest who, again, shared with stevenson not only politics, but also social life. And she actually became an important volunteer in his 52 campaign, and to a lesser extent in the 56 campaign. But these are women who really, truly adore Adlai Stevenson for all the reasons that, if we could pull up another chair here right now and get Adlai Stevenson to sit down, we, too, would have a wonderful time. Cspan let me just go over some quick things. He went where to college . Guest he went to princeton. Cspan where did he get his law degree . Guest he got his law degree at northwestern. And this is one of these hidden episodes in the family. He flunked out of harvard. And this is asort of an episode that the family put under the closet door and didnt refer to. But he did fail out of Harvard Law School and then he finished it at northwestern. Cspan and he was governor for how many terms . Guest one time. Cspan what years . Guest he was governor from 1948 to 1952. Cspan he ran for president how many times . Guest twice. Cspan what about 60. What was that all about . Guest well, that. Cspan you have 52, 56 and then. Guest yes. Yes. And then in 56, he said, im never going to do this again. and one would like to think that thats what he really meant. But theres always this ambiguity with Adlai Stevenson. Having said that and unleashed all of the very ambitious young democrats, not the least of which is going to be John Fitzgerald kennedy, then he takes this back a little bit in 1960 and there is this minor effort at the convention in los angeles to win the nomination. And it doesnt work. And then there is this bad time, i think, for stevenson, who doesntis not appointed secretary of state, which is what he wanted and truly believed that he could excel at instead, he becomes the ambassador to the United Nations and thats not a good job for him. Cspan theres a scene that you talk about in the book and then well jump all around here trying to get to the bottom of this. Guest as long as we know which Adlai Stevenson were talking about. Cspan yes. Were talking about the former governor. Guest yeah. Cspan . The man who ran for president. The scene outside of john f. Kennedys house in georgetown. Guest yeah. Cspan . When they came out after the election to talk about the un ambassadorship. What was that about . Guest yeah. Well, by that time kennedystevenson wouldnt trade. I have to back up a little bit. Kennedy had gone to libertyville, thats stevensons home outside of chicago, and asked him to support him. And this was a typical old political deal. Its done all the time. Cspan in 60. Guest in 60. you give me your delegates, and stevenson had a big following, and then ill support you for secretary of state. but stevenson wouldnt do that. Thats dirty politics and you dont behave that way. So what happened was that kennedy had certainlydidnt have any debt to stevenson after he won the election. And there was this sort of embarrassing time where stevenson hoped that he might be appointed secretary of state, but really bobby kennedywho hated stevensonwas talking to his brother about the possibility of sending him off as the ambassador to great britain. And they finally come up with the un job. And so this scene takes place outside of kennedys home and kennedy is publicly offering stevenson the un post. And stevenson refuses to say, oh, this is wonderful, im glad to join this administration. This is going to be very good for the democrats and for the world. and instead hes very ambivalent about what hes going to do. And kennedys furious. Things deteriorate, even from there, and kennedyat the actual inaugurationive always thought it was a sign of things to come, when everyone gets into their limousine to ride down from the capitol hill swearingin to the white house, theres no limousine for Adlai Stevenson. And, in a sense, he was out in the cold. Cspan you mention that Robert Kennedy didnt like governor stevenson. But you also point out that he worked for him, though. Guest yes, thats right. Cspan and what year did he work for him . Guest he worked for him in 56. Cspan can you remember how old they both were . Guest well, stevenson would have been 56 and i guess Robert Kennedys in his 30s perhaps. Cspan why didnt he like him . Guest he thought he ran a bad campaign. And thats one thing about the kennedys. They know how to run campaigns. And Robert Kennedy was sending word to his brother almost immediately that Adlai Stevenson washad no idea about how to speak to the people, that the campaign would roll up into a coal mining town and stevenson would get out and talk about foreign policy. This isby the way, is one of the great characteristics of Adlai Stevenson. He was always telling people what they didnt want to hear. If he went to talk to the veterans, hed talk about patriotism, but not of the kind of muscular patriotism that the veterans wanted to hear about. If he was in the south, hed talk about civil rights and tidelands oil. If he was talking in front of democratic politicians, hed talk about how he might not support everybody on the ticket. Cspan did Robert Kennedy vote for mr. Stevenson in 56 . Guest no, he voted for eisenhower, apparently. Cspan why . Guest well, i guess thats the depth of his dislike, that he was willing to jump parties. Of course, there might be a hidden agenda there about helping his brother. Cspan how did you find that out . Guest i think that thats in some printed sources on stevenson and also on Robert Kennedy. I think theres a biography of kennedy by Arthur Schlesinger that includes that. Cspan who are the people that liked governor stevenson the most . Guest well. Cspan people around him. Guest people around him, yeah. Cspan i mean, you mention Arthur Schlesinger. Did he start with him . Guest yeah, this is his Famous Campaign in 52 when stevenson had the best speech writers weve everprobably ever hadthree Pulitzer Prize winners; Arthur Schlesinger, john kenneth galbraith, John Bartlow Martini mean, an allstar cast. Cspan whered Archibald Macleish come in . Guest he wrote for stevenson, too. He wrote one of the best of stevensons speeches, but theres always a difficulty because stevenson stood by those speeches and he liked to call these wonderful writers his researchers. And there was a little bit of element of pride there inon the issues thatstevenson wanted to write these speeches. Theyhe was a messenger of this vision that he had of the United States. So we know today that no one makes up their own speeches, but in stevensons time he stood very firmly on the notion that those were his speeches, and thats why he edited them all the time, so that there would be a little bit of a rumpus. I have to tell one story about the 52 campaign and the plane arrives in grand rapids, michigan, and theres a big crowd on the ground and stevensons working on the speech, hes not ready. Hes editing, hes editing, hes editing and the newspaper reporter from the Baltimore Sun looks over and sees that the crowd just dwindles away. And by the time that stevenson gets out and has a beautiful speech to deliver, everyones left. Cspan if we followed you around in the last eight years. Guest oh, god. Oh, mygod forbid. Cspan . Where would we have seen you go to get this book . Guest oh, well, a lot of places. We dont make things easy for american historians. If we justwere really close here to the library of congress, but, you know, our records are all over the country bloomington; springfield; princeton university, which where a huge stevenson archive exists; Mclean County courthouse; president ial libraries. Cspan mclean. Guest so that theresthe Kennedy Library in boston. Cspan how do you work on Something Like this . How do you organize it . Guest thats not a question i dont have to answer that anymore, do i . Cspan well. Guest its tough. I wanted to have more flashbacks. I guess i shouldyou should never say what you should have done, you just say what you did i wanted to craft this around stevenson ii. Hes a very interesting, quixotic figure. On the other hand, i wanted to do a family biography that swept through the years and so what i do is to begin with this major choice and decision that Adlai Stevenson ii makes in 1948 to run for the governorship. And then, after covering his years in the statehouse, i move backward in time and cover the family progression and then return to Adlai Stevenson ii, whos the central character of the book, and then conclude with Adlai Stevenson iii. Cspan where do you work on a fulltime basis . Guest im a professor of history at goucher college. Cspan and wheres that . Guest thats in baltimore, maryland, and theyre very sensitive and helpful to their professors who are trying to write books. Cspan how long have you been there . Guest ive been there about 20 years. Cspan and other books that youve written. Guest ive written a biography of Mary Todd Lincoln and ive written a book on political culture, affairs of party, which is the story of northern democrats. And then ive written some books on maryland history. Cspan based on what you found about Adlai Stevenson, could you have voted for him . Guest oh, for sure. Oh, yes, i would have voted for him. Have to always remember who the competition is. Cspan now there are some odds and ends here i want to ask you about. Youve got george ball. Guest yes. Cspan the late george ball saying. Guest yes. Cspan the thing that fascinated me about adlai was that he accepted so easily the idea that he was a great historical figure. guest yes. Yes. Cspan i think he had Abraham Lincoln on his mind a great deal. guest yes. Yes. Well, i thinktheres also a quote in there from the alsops about how they worried about american politicians who put themselves innext to Abraham Lincoln. But you had to worry about american politics. There are illinoians, though, and they have a strong identity with Abraham Lincoln. Now as to the issue of Adlai Stevenson thinking of himself as a great man, i see him somewhat differently. This is a guy whos very selfdeprecatory and who may suffer from a lack of what we call in modern america selfesteem. This is a guy whos had a lot of barbs and arrows along the way and who i dont think, except perhaps at the end of his life, that he ever was pompous and prideful and full of hubris. I see him as a man who was very much in touch with the reality of whatwho and what he was. Cspan periodically, you see references that people tried to accuse him of being gay. Guest yes, thats shabby. Cspan was he . Guest thats one of the worst things i found out. That depressed me a great deal. This came out of the fbi records. There is material there suggesting that j. Edgar hoover really organized a Campaign Among some of his agents to talk publicly, loud voices, about how Adlai Stevenson was gay. And hoover did keep a file on stevenson. You know that he had this special closet of stuff in his office. And he would also tell fbi agents to try to circulate this in chicago. So this is one of these sort of hidden rumors that in 52 nobody talked about this openly; it was too soon. But there was a lot of whispering around about how Adlai Stevenson was gay. And this was totally untrue and totally unfair. And so when we think about dirty campaigns, i think weve got to remember 1952 as a very dirty campaign. Cspan you say that near the end he ballooned to 200 pounds. Guest 220 pounds, yeah. Cspan what was his normal weight when he was governor . Guest probably about 160, 180. Cspan what happened . Guest well, i think the last part of his life he really became somewhat obsessive. He did have a family background of a mother and father who were full of nerves, who were neurasthenics, who spent most of their adult lives seeking spas and often went off to harvey kelloggs battle creek sanitarium. And i think stevenson had some of this nervousness and perhaps you would call him a neurotic at the end. But people noted that he would, at parties, just eat too much and perhaps drink a little bit too much. Cspan back to the women in his life. I want to readyou have a love letter to marietta tree. Guest yeah. Cspan who was she, by the way . Guest well, she was a peabodya massachusets peabody of a very distinctive line ofthese are public figures and private figures. This is a family that began Groton School and this is a family that was associated with the civil rights movement. Cspan this the Endicott Peabody family . Guest yeah, sure. Yes. Cspan he ran for Vice President once . Guest yes. Yes. Yes. And this is a woman, who, living in new york in the 1950s, like a lot of other americans, became absorbed with politics. And she worked in one of these local lexington clubslexington avenue political clubs for the Democratic Party and shethats how she met Adlai Stevenson. She was an energetic, intelligent woman who then, having been bitten by the stevenson bugas, by the way, lots of men and women were during the 50s. They never forgot Adlai Stevenson. She then worked on his campaign in 52 and 56 and then he was responsible for her appointment to the United Nations. Cspan the skies have cleared, the moon is high, full and brilliant over the silver sea. You wont step out on the balcony to wonder at the beauty of the night for fear of prying eyes. So we stand in the shadow just inside the door very close. Breath is short and the heart fast and the struggle between looking and wonderinglying and wondering. Now i will go to sleep and dream of july days and nights, unquote. Adlai stevenson wrote that . Guest what a wonderful. Cspan wait, didi mean, did. Guest why are you surprised . Cspan well, what an image you have of him whenthe speechesisfairlyi dont know, you tell me. Is that. Guest well, hes a romantic and at the end of his life he was writing poetry. I came upon all these snippets of poetry and he had composed some of them. Some of them were paraphrases from others. Cspan this is the one here, we have changed since, but the remembered spring can change no more. guest yes. Yes. Cspan even in the autumn smokes, we cannot have the havoc of the hearth. guest yes. Yes. Cspan but my mind remembers half the spring and shall till winter falls. guest yeah. I think thats a transposition, ill probably hear from some of your viewers, from baudelaire. Adlai stevenson, i think, wascared a lot about the written word. And i see these speechesi mean, this is one of the things that got me through this project. The idea of reading all of a politicians speeches can be a life sentence, but Adlai Stevensons speeches are wonderful to read. Sometimes you get through them and youre not exactly sure what he said, but nonetheless, they are poetry to some extent. Cspan the last hurrah chapter, chapter 12, you lead off by saying, he sought from his sister some explanation of his fathers tempers, his mothers illness and his parents unhappiness. guest yeah. Cspan what is all that . Guest yeah. Well, this is the problem of his parents who didnt get along at all. This is. Cspan what were their names . Guest their names were louis green stevenson, and louis green was descended from Adlai Ewing Stevenson i, whos a congressman and inveterate politician and a Vice President of the United States. But louis has certain kinds of problems with him, so he never can do much of anything. And helen is his very nervous wife and they have two children and those two children are buffie, the eldest, and adlai. The problem here is that because the parents dont get along, helen, adlais mother, insists on, really, to some extent, suffocating her young son with affection. I mean, there are other mothers who go to college with their sons. I guess we can remember macarthur and Franklin Delano roosevelt, but Helen Davis Stevenson went off to princeton when her son adlai matriculated and she would stay there several blocks away and try to tend to him and take care of him. Cspan what was the impact on him . Guest i dontyou know, there are two ways you can go on this. You can say that really helps you if you have this dedicated mother whos given up her life, in a sense, to be with you. But then you can go the other way and say that you sort of never come out of this umbrella thats been put around you to be yourself. Cspan another name that youi think i only saw it once in here, you mention that he had a relationship with a Dorothy Fosdick. Guest thats right, yeah. Cspan who was she . Guest she worked for the state department, and Adlai Stevenson spent many years with the un and Dorothy Fosdick was Harry Emerson fosdicks daughter and she worked. Cspan whos that . Guest a famous preacher. And she worked with the state department and was assigned to the un, and so they ran into each other when stevenson was in london on un business. Now this is before hes governor of illinois, and they clearly have an affair, but i. Cspan how do you know . Guest well, i guess i know because of some of the letters that had existed between the two that the family has now withdrawn. Cspan withdrawn from public . Guest yeah. Yeah. Cspan and you saw them . Guest no, i did not see them. I saw transcriptions of them in the letters of John Bartlow Martin where they do exist. Cspan is this the same Dorothy Fosdick that went to work over on capitol hill after all that . Guest probably. Cspan shes still alive, or did you. Guest i dont know. Cspan when you get Something Like that, do you ever try to find them and call them up and ask them whether this is true or not or. Guest well, theres so many characters here, though. I did interview marietta tree before she died. I did try to get to the central characters in the book, but what i found was that stevensons a guy who has associations with people in the Democratic Party, he has people in the un that you need to see. So its real hard to cut down. And besides which, someone like Dorothy Fosdick, and indeed this was the case with marietta tree, theyre never going to tell you about the intimacies of their relationship. Cspan what did marietta tree tell you . I mean, did you ask you about it . Guest wellno, im just a little bit too sensitive to that to know that if it doesnt come up, im not going to be like geraldo, is that right . Cspan ive got to watch what i ask then. Was Adlai Stevenson ii an antisemite . Guest well, in the context of the time he surely was. Remember, this is a time in american history, and were talking now about the 20s and 30s, when white, anglosaxon protestants talked of an antisemitic vocabulary, and certainly this was part of his society and he shared it with them. When i also think that hebecause he failed out of Harvard Law School, he always, i think, felt that harvard had been one of the places where he had first met jewish people and that they were more competitive than he. And that, also, was something that came up in his years in the new deal with jerome frank and some of the really sharp minds of the new deal. These people were jewish. And i think stevenson resented that. Cspan this sentencethere the casual nudist, stevenson, who often wanted to, quote, escape myself, unquote, shocked several women by throwing off his clothes and plunging naked into the soft caribbean sea. guest i know, its wonderful. His son, bordeni had a wonderful interview with his son, Borden Stevenson. And Borden Stevenson told me the same thing about his father, that when they would go out west, these three boys with their father, and they would be riding in thewyoming or idaho, that he would love to take his clothes off and frolic about. Now i dont know what the meaning or significance of that is, but nonetheless, this is a guy who did have good times. He had a lot of bad times, but he had some good times, too. Cspan what did edward r. Murrow do for stevenson . Guest i think murrow could have helped stevenson a lot an. Cspan did he work with him . Guest tried to work with him, but couldnt get stevenson to really Pay Attention to what murrow knew was important, and that is electronic projection. Stevenson was oldfashioned and traditional about this, and he thought that you got up in front of a lectern and you had a printed page and you read a speech. And, of course, murrow knew a lot differently. So theres this wonderful story of stevenson and he goes to new york and itsmurrow cant go public with this because that would show partisanship, but stevenson sneaks into the studio to get some tips from edward r. Murrow, but murrow later said it just didnt work, he really didnt want to hear what i was trying to tell him, and thats stevenson. Thats probably the might have been of american campaigns, that you dont learn how to project yourself on tv, you just talk about the issues. Cspan and you were born where . Guest i was born in baltimore, maryland. Cspan went to school where . Guest i went to school in baltimore and then i went to Vassar College and then i returned and got my degrees in baltimore. My phd is from the Johns Hopkins university. Cspan in what . Guest in history. Cspan what got you interested in history . Guest well, iits that teacher in the third gradeyou know the way people say. And it also, i think, has something to do with my family and their interest in their past and i was just always hooked from miss howards class in the Bryn Mawr School where we cut and pasted greek statues into our books and learned about pericles in fifth century b. C. Greece. Cspan what do you think of the teaching profession today . Do you like to teach . Guest oh, yeah, i love it. Yeah. What a wonderful way to stay in touch with young people and learn from them and then try, sometimes, to teach them something. Cspan what is goucher like, and what kind of a school is it . Guest it used to be a womens college, and now its coed and boisterously coed. Its small, undergraduate and very much committed to the idea of liberal artsthat you have a broadbased, general education and then off you go to do more specialized training. Cspan is there new information in this book . Guest some. Some. Whats new about it is the use of the family papers, some of the letters of Adlai Stevenson ii to each other. And then i think every time we redo and relook at a public figure, you get a new interpretation. Whether theres new facts or new information is probably less important than the whole interpretation of an era and of a family. Cspan is this the liberal that everybody uses as the standard bearer . Guest yeah. Yeah. Yes and no. If youre looking at civil rights, this is not the liberal men like averell harriman were a lot more liberal on issues of civil rights which stevenson was sort of squashy on. But if youre looking at something that was really important at the time, and that was civil libertiesremember, this is the time of Joseph Mccarthy and if you look at that, then you see Adlai Stevenson really is a heroic figure. This is a guy who was willing to veto legislation in illinois because he felt that it was unneeded, that there werent any communists in the illinois schools and colleges and that there were a number of laws that were sufficient to take care of the problem of subversion in the United States. And he was very bold on that. Cspan picture here of Adlai Stevenson i, finally back to the beginning of this. Guest oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Cspan who was this man . Guest this is Adlai Stevensons grandfather. This is the guy who really starts this heritage of public service. This is a guy who loved, above all, to be in office and to be in politics. He ran five times for congress. He didnt mind if he was defeated, he would go back and run again. He served in appointive offices, he was elected toas Vice President with Grover Cleveland in his second. Cspan is thisi didnt mean to interruptthis a picture of him and his grandson . Guest yes, thats a picture of Adlai Stevenson i and Adlai Stevenson ii. Weve jumped the generation of stevenson parents, louis green stevenson. Cspan how did he become a Vice President . Guest he was lucky. In many areas, stevenson i was real lucky. There was a search for a Vice President. It was a thought in those days that you needed to balance regionally. The Vice President should come from a part of the country that the president didnt come from. And stevenson had asome following at that point. Hed been in politics all the time. I think the best story about him is that even when hes in his 70s, he decides that he wants to run for governor of illinois in 1908. And so he goes out on the hustings, and even though sick and ill, this, it seems to me, is something that was the meaning of his life. And so he literally, almost, dies as a political candidate whos interested in having some kind of a public office. Ive often thought maybe that was because he didnt serve in the civil war. Cspan so youve made it, you indomitable little tiger. see if you remember this. i could bite your ear. Guest oh, gosh. Cspan . with savage jaw. I know what it means to win when people smiled and had no faith, just damnable courtesy. Why this napoleonic, ill found an empire . Must caesar forever gather laurels to be happy . Is this father jealousy love healthy . Profit my heart, profit from the lessons of your inher. who is this . Guest this is another one of those love letters that weve been reading. This is a letter that Adlai Stevenson, whoim not sure whether hed been elected governor, butor he was about to be elected governor in 1948wrote to one of his intimates and thats, of course, Alicia Patterson guggenheim, with whom he had an affair while he was in the Governors Mansion. Cspan while she was married. Guest she was married. She was married to harry guggenheim. And she, of course, is of that wonderful journalist clan and thats why hes so in awe of her, because he too thought that he might have a career in journalism because the family owned a famous midwestern newspaper, the bloomington pantagraph. So heres this woman whom he loves and whom hes known on the dance floors of chicago, and what is she doing . Shes running this very successful newsday. And they have a wonderful relationship. Again, im not sure why he didnt marry her. When she was ready to marry him, he wasnt ready to marry her and vice versa. Cspan theres another letter thati guess they gotalmost got caught. Guest yes, they always get caught. I mean, theyre pretty open about this in the Governors Mansion and you cant keep this kind of stuff quiet. I mean, i dont mean it would get in the newspapers, but you certainly cant keep this stuff quiet too long because the maids are finding the lipstickstained pillowcases and so he has to warn her about his reputation. Cspan well, heres a letter. write guarded letters for a while until i can get the secretarial situation down there under control, cautioned the horrified governor. Once stevenson rebuked his house guest about, quote,that strong scent. guest oh, god. Cspan the place reeked the next morning and the maids must have been slightly confused or not confused at all. guest yeah. Yeah. Now these are letters, its interesting, that arent in the official family letters, as you might guess. But, in fact, are in another collection of letters. So some of this is detective work. Youre not going to get all the stuff from the stevenson family theyre not going to show thesei think theyre wonderful love lettersbetween the two. Cspan what does the stevenson family think of your book . Guest i hate to think from one perspective, because they have a sense of themselves and i certainly wouldnt speak for them. I hope that they respect the book from the point of the view of the integrity of the research and the accuracy. Im sure theyre not going to accept all of the interpretations. I mean, you know, this is difficult for Adlai Stevenson iii to read about some of the things i say about him as a practicing campaigner. Hes just not a very effective campaigner. Cspan youre talking about the man that was a United States senator for 10 years . Guest yes. Yes. Cspan who left the senate in 1980. Guest yeah. Yeah. Cspan whos still alive. Guest whos still alive. Cspan roughly how old is he now . Guest well, he was born in 1930, so hes 66. Cspan sixtysix. How didyou eluded toor how did Adlai Stevenson ii die . Guest i felt that he died a sort of noble death ini guess we look at this from our perspective in this time of lingering illness and having to be in hospitals and etc. Here he was on a soft london day walking along the street with marietta tree and he suddenly drops behind and pales and says to her this ancient stevenson motto, keep your head up high, and crashes to the ground dead of a coronary at exactly 65 years of age. This, it seems to me, might be a proper lifetime for a man who was born in 1900. And there is a certain irony about his death because he was walking with some secret material and his briefcase sprang open and all of the pink slips were flying around in the london breeze and here lay Adlai Stevenson dead on the pavement. A great shock to numbers of americans who respected him a great deal. Cspan didnt you also say that his father and mother both died at 65 . Guest yes. Not at 65, but one before and the mother at 65 i believe. Cspan and his wife ishe divorced his wife in 1949. Guest yeah. Cspan . And what was the circumstances, finally, of her death in 1968 . Guest oh, ellen borden. Cspan ellen. Yes. Guest she died in 72 andof cancer of the colon. Cspan oh, she was evicted from her home in. Guest she was evicted from her home and this was a terrible episode. Cspan 68. Guest in 68. She had no money and she had become more and more paranoid and felt that the stevensons were after her, that they had paid people to eavesdrop on her and she was worried always that she would behave to be examined by psychiatrists, and so she was evicted and fled across state lines and then lived in gary, indiana, for four years before she died in 72. Cspan you have this dedication here in the front of the book. Guest yeah. Cspan the book is dedicated to the next generation. Guest yeah. Cspan next generation of what . Guest i thought it was an appropriate dedication. I have another grandchild coming and this was a book on Family History and generations of stevensons. I come from a big family with many, many generations and grandchildren and great nieces and all and so i thought it was an appropriate dedication, and one can bring to it whoever one thinks that the next generation might be. Cspan what is your sense . Will there ever be another Adlai Stevenson . I dont mean by name. Guest yeah. Yeah. Cspan . But that kind of a politician . Guest yeah. No is the short answer. Cspan why . Guest our political mediums just simply dont permit a thoughtful, expressive american politician. I think were into a sort of meanspirited time in american politics, and i would never deny that there are cycles of Political Behavior but, on the other hand, i think its really difficult to have the kind of politician whos willing to say, as Adlai Stevenson said, lets talk sense to the american people. Better to lose the election than mislead the american people. i cant imagine anyone saying that today. Cspan if you were going to go find one thing that was Adlai Stevenson, you could put your hands on it, read it, or if there was a speech you could listen to, what would that be . Guest it might be the speech that i just quoted. This is a speech that he gave to the Democratic National convention in 1952, and i might conflate it with one of his other speeches in which he has this vision of what america might be. i see an america. and then he goes through this peroration of healthy, working american men, of Older Americans protected by their government. And he goes on and on. Its really wonderful. Its asort of makes your blood run. Cspan another name that came up in connection with Adlai Stevenson was newton minow. Guest yes. Yes. Cspan what was their relationship . Guest well. Cspan hes still ar. Guest hes. Cspan hes still alive. Guest hes still around, yes. Yes, very much so. There are a number of characters from Adlai Stevensons life. This, by the way, and ill get back to minow, is one of the things about stevenson, that he attracted this generation of americans, and even now there are a number of people who are in public life who will say, well, i got into politics because i was inspired by Adlai Stevenson.