Transcripts For CSPAN2 Andrew 20240706 : comparemela.com

Title and for a wonderful, fascinating conversation. Thank you very much. Thank you, paul thank you all. Good afternoon, everyone. Im david brigham. Im the librarian and ceo here at the Historical Society of pennsylvania. It is a great pleasure to have you here for our inaugural program in our refreshed patterson room. This is literally the first event in this newly renovated space. So welcome and thank you for coming by with us this afternoon. Were absolutely delighted to be collaborating with the Philadelphia Club and appreciate the promotional support from the Library Company of philadelphia and the American Philosophical Society. Our topic today is the underground railroad and one of our colleagues has described William Still. Els journal si as the most extensive, most important document of the underground railroad that survives. So we are thrilled to be able to share that with you under the plexiglass over there, youll be able to see it again at the end of the program. But were going to hear from our expert today, Andrew Diemer, who is an associate professor at Towson University where hes been teaching africanamerican history since 2011. Hes also director of dozens metropolitan studies program. Professor deemer received his ph. D. In history from Temple University and is from williams college. His first book, the politics of black citizenship free africanamerican in the atlantic borderland 1817 1863 on university of Georgia Press explored the struggle. Free africanamericans living in philadelphia in the mid19th century and baltimore to be granted the rights of citizenship. Andrew being conversation today with jay stiefel jay studied history at the university of pennsylvania and christ church, oxford. In february 2019, jay was named north american alumni author by the university of oxford for his current book, the cabinet makers account. John heads record of craft and commerce in colonial philadelphia. 1718 to 1753, published by the American Philosophical Society press. As with this publication, his writings and lectures on philadelphia social history have restored to the historical record the early asman and merchants whose accomplishments had been obscure for the passage of time. Jay is a member of the Historical Society of pennsylvanias treasure society. Without further ado, please welcome jay stiefel and Andrew Diemer diemer. Thank you, david, for that introduction. And welcome, andrew. Everybody came today. Thank you. At his death in 1902, the New York Times William Still as the father of the underground railroad, he had authored an 18 part 800 page History Organization and had been a leading 19 century abolition ist and civil rights activist. Indeed, from his office at the Vigilance Committee in philadelphia, still oversaw efforts that brought to freedom hundreds of the enslaved. In recent years, however, stills pivotal role has been for your book vigilance themes, obscurity. His life and contribution. Id like to start by asking you what is the rap and how it was organized and when it started. So when we think about the underground railroad, we should be clear, first off, that its a metaphor and its a metaphor that we use today. Its a metaphor that was used at the time of its operation, but its a metaphor describing the organized effort to aid fugitive slaves. So when we think about when that began, i think its almost impossible for us to say when it began, as long as people were seeking to escape from slavery, they were seeking help in doing that. So they found people who were sympathetic, often it began with friends and family members who would help them along the way and maybe would pass them on to someone that they knew was safe. This kind of help was improvizational. It was sporadic. It was disorganized. The underground railroad, i mean, when we think about still his his work is about bringing system in order to that that disorganized effort of aiding fugitive slaves. Now, we should think about you know, also the fact is that the fugitive slaves, while people were aiding fugitive slaves, they referred themselves to this process as the underground railroad. And so in this regard, that term begins to enter the public realm in the early 1840s. Thats when people in print at least start referring to the underground railroad. Okay. Now, what drew drew you to William Still as a subject. So i wrote a previous book that was about the black community of philadelphia and baltimore and their efforts to gain Citizenship Rights. And i kept coming across William Still in the process of researching that book. In fact, its wonderful to be here at hsp because this is the heart of that research. And the research for stills book. I kept coming across William Still, who i was aware of. I knew who he was because hes this important figure in the underground railroad. But i was coming across him in unexpected places, public places. He was writing to newspapers, he was making speeches and all of that didnt seem to fit with what i thought. I knew about William Still. And so that was the germ of this project was to try to understand who still will agree really was and why he was doing these things. Now, before the publication of your book, still is not as well known, its this fellow abolitionist Harriet Tubman and Frederick Douglass. Why do you think that was . I think there are at least two big reasons why he was it has been less well known. So the first is that he himself, in his writing about the underground railroad, tended to downplay his own involvement, or at least to emphasize other things. And so he is not, in this regard, a great selfpromoter. And i think the legacy has been he hasnt gotten the full credit for the labor that he did. The second thing i would say is that the work that he did was harder for us to get our heads around, harder for us to appreciate its importance compared to, you know, Harriet Tubman is indisputable. Billy, traveling into danger by traveling into maryland, the Eastern Shore where she had grown up and rescuing or helping fugitive slaves escape. Frederick douglass is is well known for all sorts of reasons. You know, hes this Brilliant Writer and orator. Hes a public figure, a newspaper publisher. All of this stuff is easier for us to understand. Its significance. William still, on the other hand, is is doing his work, sitting at a desk, writing, communicating. In the course of writing the book, i wanted to make the case that this is actually vital work. This is this is work that connects people like Harriet Tubman, whos at one end of William Still underground railroad network, and Frederick Douglass, whos at the other end, helping them travel into canada still is the one in the middle, right . Still is the one who connects the dots and brings all these disparate elements of the underground railroad together. And of course, unlike like Frederick Douglass, for example, he was not born enslaved and didnt write an autobiography of that experience. Thats correct. So i think the fact that still was born as a free person, though, to parents who were enslaved is part of what makes him a little bit harder for us to really appreciate or understand. Right. We get that Frederick Douglass ran away from slavery. William still was the youngest of 18 children. His parents had escaped from slavery on the Eastern Shore of maryland. His his father, levin, still was able to purchase his freedom. And his mother, we see here charities still. Originally sydney was unable to purchase her freedom and ran away. The first time she ran away, bringing their four small children and joining her husband in south jersey. She was very quickly recaptured by slave catchers and then when she fled a second time, she made the heartbreaking choice to leave two of those children behind. Now tell us something of stills father. So, levon was, you know, he had worked for years to purchase his own freedom. And once he was able to purchase his freedom and once his wife and the two daughters joined them, he moved the family to rural south jersey, burlington county. And he you know, his goal was to become an independent farmer. He sort of set up his family in a remote place where he hoped that slave catchers wouldnt catch up to charity. They changed their name. They adopted the name. Still, they had been originally his original name was steel. And in this region of south jersey, there was a large commune of free black people who were already named still. So in adopting this name, he was, in essence, trying to blend in to this larger community. You know, he he continued to acquire land. And so to live as a farmer, raised his children in this on the farm. And so still, when he grew up in this family, he grew up working on a farm. So as a very young boy, he started this kind of work. Okay. And how many children were there in total . So there were 18, though. We only have the names for 14. So it seems that a few of them were likely stillborn or died in infancy. So in any case, so huge family. And where did William Still fit into the pecking order . He was the youngest. And so once he was born, you know, the eldest children were already out working independently. So. So his definitely the youngest of a big family. What can you tell us of his Early Education . Well, you know, i think this is typical of farm families in general, much of the year he was needed to work. And even when he wasnt, you being used on his fathers farm, he was traveling around and picking cranberries and the kinds of things that people did in rural south jersey at this time. There was a school and it was a school that black and white children both attended. And when it was possible he would attend the school, but it was sporadic to begin with and it seems that the teachers there were quite hostile to the still children attending. So eventually his father withdrew him entirely. So he has very little formal education. The vast majority of his education comes as a sort of autodidact. So he teaches himself and to read mostly hes hes reading everything and get his hands on. And then, you know, over time, he would become a much more polished writer. And what drew him to philadelphia. So he was drawn to philadelphia for the same reason that most people in this period were drawn to philadelphia. I suppose today. The reason people are drawn to philadelphia, which is work. Philadelphia was where he could find work. He did not envision himself remaining in south jersey as a farmer. So he came to philadelphia hoping to find work. But of course, work was hard to come by in philadelphia. And what were the circumstances of the Africanamerican Community in philadelphia at the time of his arrival . So still moves into a city where the black community is is thriving in some respects, but not in others. So the black community is probably by depending on how you measure it, the the largest black community, certainly the largest urban black community in the north, baltimore is somewhat larger. So there are lots of theres a lot going on. Its also a place where theres a kind of small but significant black middle class and that black middle class also helps make philadelphia a leader nationally among black activists. So so black abolitionists, for example, are playing a leading role in this sort of growing network of black abolitionists who are connecting across the country. So its a its a vibrant community, often centered on churches, but involving all sorts of organizations, all sorts of activism. Thats still moves into it and really roots himself in. Okay. Now, what drew him to work in the Abolition Movement and what were what were his roles . So i like to say that William Still was born into an abolitionist family. So as i mentioned, his parents had both been enslaved and his mother was a fugitive from slavery. As a young boy. He had aided fugitive slaves escaping. And he tells the story of going with a brother in law to help ferry a fugitive slave to safety. As a young boy. So this was not anything out of the ordinary as a young man as as he began to make some money before even moving to philadelphia, he had subscribed to black newspapers. So he really, from an early age, has an interest in this growing antislavery community, but particularly black abolitionist community. Once he gets to philadelphia, he even before he comes to work at the Antislavery Society, formerly he is involved in efforts to help black sort of poor black philadelphians. So hes involved in this moral reform retreat where sort of functions as a school for other purposes as well. But ultimately, he he sees this opportunity that is being offered to become a cleric at the Antislavery Society, and he jumps at it. So he jumps at it because he is personally committed to the antislavery cause. But this is also an opportunity for him to better himself. And these are kind of the twin stories of stills life that he always sees these two things working hand in hand. So this is an opportunity for a kind of steady paycheck for a salary thats going to allow him to become independent and then live the kind of activist life that he wants to live. Okay. Now, his role as clark was not one of a scrivener. I mean, how would you define that role in more modern terms in connection with those particular societies . Yeah, i mean, i think when we hear the term clark today, i dont think we truly appreciate the significance of the role that these sorts of people were playing in all sorts of enterprises in the 19th century. The Clarks Clarks were this kind of growing class of urban professionals who were making business work. These were the people who kept records, who did all sorts of things and still is doing that in some respects at the Antislavery Society being a clerk for still at the Antislavery Society also meant that he was kind of doing everything that was required of him. There was lots of work to be done. This was a place where it was a kind of clearinghouse for abolitionist information. In philadelphia. So theres a book store there. Hes hes working there. They put out an abolitionist newspaper. So hes involved in the production and the distribution of this newspaper where hes there, you know, so lots of the people who are involved in the Antislavery Society kind of come and go. Theyre traveling around, making speeches. Is the guy whos there all the time. And in that capacity, he also gets involved in this other part of the abolitionist work, the part for which we know him the best, which is the Vigilance Committee. Right. This is the organize ized association that is committed to aiding fugitive slaves in any way needed. And thats still okay. Now, before we get into some examples of the work on the Vigilance Committee, the acting committee of the Vigilance Committee that he headed, where did these societies from . Where do they derive their support, their Financial Support . So, so still is officially employed by the pennsylvania Antislavery Society. So thats his official role. Thats where his salary comes from. Theres a kind of unofficial relationship between the Antislavery Society and the Vigilance Committee, but the bulk of the funds for the Vigilance Committee have to be independently raised. And so this is one of stills responsible parties is to to to find out how to get the money that will make all of this work happen. And much of that work involved drawing on the commitment of the black community of philadelphia to this kind of work. So there were Public Meetings held in black churches, for example, where money was raised for the Vigilance Committee and abolitionists also traveled across the atlantic. So a significant portion of the Vigilance Committees funds came from british abolitionists who were quite supportive of this work, still didnt travel across the atlantic, but his employer at the Antislavery Society, miller mckim, did. And so hes sort of getting Revenue Streams from all over now describe to us the work of the Vigilance Committee in connection with the underground railroad and stills work in particular. Sure. So so i think i hinted at this earlier when we were talking about Harriet Tubman. I mean, all sorts of people all over the place are doing this work. Lots of people are committed to aiding fugitive slaves on a small scale, informal basis, sometimes, sometimes repeatedly. And what still in the Historical Society<\/a> of pennsylvania. It is a great pleasure to have you here for our inaugural program in our refreshed patterson room. This is literally the first event in this newly renovated space. So welcome and thank you for coming by with us this afternoon. Were absolutely delighted to be collaborating with the Philadelphia Club<\/a> and appreciate the promotional support from the Library Company<\/a> of philadelphia and the American Philosophical Society<\/a>. Our topic today is the underground railroad and one of our colleagues has described William Still<\/a>. Els journal si as the most extensive, most important document of the underground railroad that survives. So we are thrilled to be able to share that with you under the plexiglass over there, youll be able to see it again at the end of the program. But were going to hear from our expert today, Andrew Diemer<\/a>, who is an associate professor at Towson University<\/a> where hes been teaching africanamerican history since 2011. Hes also director of dozens metropolitan studies program. Professor deemer received his ph. D. In history from Temple University<\/a> and is from williams college. His first book, the politics of black citizenship free africanamerican in the atlantic borderland 1817 1863 on university of Georgia Press<\/a> explored the struggle. Free africanamericans living in philadelphia in the mid19th century and baltimore to be granted the rights of citizenship. Andrew being conversation today with jay stiefel jay studied history at the university of pennsylvania and christ church, oxford. In february 2019, jay was named north american alumni author by the university of oxford for his current book, the cabinet makers account. John heads record of craft and commerce in colonial philadelphia. 1718 to 1753, published by the American Philosophical Society<\/a> press. As with this publication, his writings and lectures on philadelphia social history have restored to the historical record the early asman and merchants whose accomplishments had been obscure for the passage of time. Jay is a member of the Historical Society<\/a> of pennsylvanias treasure society. Without further ado, please welcome jay stiefel and Andrew Diemer<\/a> diemer. Thank you, david, for that introduction. And welcome, andrew. Everybody came today. Thank you. At his death in 1902, the New York Times<\/a> William Still<\/a> as the father of the underground railroad, he had authored an 18 part 800 page History Organization<\/a> and had been a leading 19 century abolition ist and civil rights activist. Indeed, from his office at the Vigilance Committee<\/a> in philadelphia, still oversaw efforts that brought to freedom hundreds of the enslaved. In recent years, however, stills pivotal role has been for your book vigilance themes, obscurity. His life and contribution. Id like to start by asking you what is the rap and how it was organized and when it started. So when we think about the underground railroad, we should be clear, first off, that its a metaphor and its a metaphor that we use today. Its a metaphor that was used at the time of its operation, but its a metaphor describing the organized effort to aid fugitive slaves. So when we think about when that began, i think its almost impossible for us to say when it began, as long as people were seeking to escape from slavery, they were seeking help in doing that. So they found people who were sympathetic, often it began with friends and family members who would help them along the way and maybe would pass them on to someone that they knew was safe. This kind of help was improvizational. It was sporadic. It was disorganized. The underground railroad, i mean, when we think about still his his work is about bringing system in order to that that disorganized effort of aiding fugitive slaves. Now, we should think about you know, also the fact is that the fugitive slaves, while people were aiding fugitive slaves, they referred themselves to this process as the underground railroad. And so in this regard, that term begins to enter the public realm in the early 1840s. Thats when people in print at least start referring to the underground railroad. Okay. Now, what drew drew you to William Still<\/a> as a subject. So i wrote a previous book that was about the black community of philadelphia and baltimore and their efforts to gain Citizenship Rights<\/a>. And i kept coming across William Still<\/a> in the process of researching that book. In fact, its wonderful to be here at hsp because this is the heart of that research. And the research for stills book. I kept coming across William Still<\/a>, who i was aware of. I knew who he was because hes this important figure in the underground railroad. But i was coming across him in unexpected places, public places. He was writing to newspapers, he was making speeches and all of that didnt seem to fit with what i thought. I knew about William Still<\/a>. And so that was the germ of this project was to try to understand who still will agree really was and why he was doing these things. Now, before the publication of your book, still is not as well known, its this fellow abolitionist Harriet Tubman<\/a> and Frederick Douglass<\/a>. Why do you think that was . I think there are at least two big reasons why he was it has been less well known. So the first is that he himself, in his writing about the underground railroad, tended to downplay his own involvement, or at least to emphasize other things. And so he is not, in this regard, a great selfpromoter. And i think the legacy has been he hasnt gotten the full credit for the labor that he did. The second thing i would say is that the work that he did was harder for us to get our heads around, harder for us to appreciate its importance compared to, you know, Harriet Tubman<\/a> is indisputable. Billy, traveling into danger by traveling into maryland, the Eastern Shore<\/a> where she had grown up and rescuing or helping fugitive slaves escape. Frederick douglass is is well known for all sorts of reasons. You know, hes this Brilliant Writer<\/a> and orator. Hes a public figure, a newspaper publisher. All of this stuff is easier for us to understand. Its significance. William still, on the other hand, is is doing his work, sitting at a desk, writing, communicating. In the course of writing the book, i wanted to make the case that this is actually vital work. This is this is work that connects people like Harriet Tubman<\/a>, whos at one end of William Still<\/a> underground railroad network, and Frederick Douglass<\/a>, whos at the other end, helping them travel into canada still is the one in the middle, right . Still is the one who connects the dots and brings all these disparate elements of the underground railroad together. And of course, unlike like Frederick Douglass<\/a>, for example, he was not born enslaved and didnt write an autobiography of that experience. Thats correct. So i think the fact that still was born as a free person, though, to parents who were enslaved is part of what makes him a little bit harder for us to really appreciate or understand. Right. We get that Frederick Douglass<\/a> ran away from slavery. William still was the youngest of 18 children. His parents had escaped from slavery on the Eastern Shore<\/a> of maryland. His his father, levin, still was able to purchase his freedom. And his mother, we see here charities still. Originally sydney was unable to purchase her freedom and ran away. The first time she ran away, bringing their four small children and joining her husband in south jersey. She was very quickly recaptured by slave catchers and then when she fled a second time, she made the heartbreaking choice to leave two of those children behind. Now tell us something of stills father. So, levon was, you know, he had worked for years to purchase his own freedom. And once he was able to purchase his freedom and once his wife and the two daughters joined them, he moved the family to rural south jersey, burlington county. And he you know, his goal was to become an independent farmer. He sort of set up his family in a remote place where he hoped that slave catchers wouldnt catch up to charity. They changed their name. They adopted the name. Still, they had been originally his original name was steel. And in this region of south jersey, there was a large commune of free black people who were already named still. So in adopting this name, he was, in essence, trying to blend in to this larger community. You know, he he continued to acquire land. And so to live as a farmer, raised his children in this on the farm. And so still, when he grew up in this family, he grew up working on a farm. So as a very young boy, he started this kind of work. Okay. And how many children were there in total . So there were 18, though. We only have the names for 14. So it seems that a few of them were likely stillborn or died in infancy. So in any case, so huge family. And where did William Still<\/a> fit into the pecking order . He was the youngest. And so once he was born, you know, the eldest children were already out working independently. So. So his definitely the youngest of a big family. What can you tell us of his Early Education<\/a> . Well, you know, i think this is typical of farm families in general, much of the year he was needed to work. And even when he wasnt, you being used on his fathers farm, he was traveling around and picking cranberries and the kinds of things that people did in rural south jersey at this time. There was a school and it was a school that black and white children both attended. And when it was possible he would attend the school, but it was sporadic to begin with and it seems that the teachers there were quite hostile to the still children attending. So eventually his father withdrew him entirely. So he has very little formal education. The vast majority of his education comes as a sort of autodidact. So he teaches himself and to read mostly hes hes reading everything and get his hands on. And then, you know, over time, he would become a much more polished writer. And what drew him to philadelphia. So he was drawn to philadelphia for the same reason that most people in this period were drawn to philadelphia. I suppose today. The reason people are drawn to philadelphia, which is work. Philadelphia was where he could find work. He did not envision himself remaining in south jersey as a farmer. So he came to philadelphia hoping to find work. But of course, work was hard to come by in philadelphia. And what were the circumstances of the Africanamerican Community<\/a> in philadelphia at the time of his arrival . So still moves into a city where the black community is is thriving in some respects, but not in others. So the black community is probably by depending on how you measure it, the the largest black community, certainly the largest urban black community in the north, baltimore is somewhat larger. So there are lots of theres a lot going on. Its also a place where theres a kind of small but significant black middle class and that black middle class also helps make philadelphia a leader nationally among black activists. So so black abolitionists, for example, are playing a leading role in this sort of growing network of black abolitionists who are connecting across the country. So its a its a vibrant community, often centered on churches, but involving all sorts of organizations, all sorts of activism. Thats still moves into it and really roots himself in. Okay. Now, what drew him to work in the Abolition Movement<\/a> and what were what were his roles . So i like to say that William Still<\/a> was born into an abolitionist family. So as i mentioned, his parents had both been enslaved and his mother was a fugitive from slavery. As a young boy. He had aided fugitive slaves escaping. And he tells the story of going with a brother in law to help ferry a fugitive slave to safety. As a young boy. So this was not anything out of the ordinary as a young man as as he began to make some money before even moving to philadelphia, he had subscribed to black newspapers. So he really, from an early age, has an interest in this growing antislavery community, but particularly black abolitionist community. Once he gets to philadelphia, he even before he comes to work at the Antislavery Society<\/a>, formerly he is involved in efforts to help black sort of poor black philadelphians. So hes involved in this moral reform retreat where sort of functions as a school for other purposes as well. But ultimately, he he sees this opportunity that is being offered to become a cleric at the Antislavery Society<\/a>, and he jumps at it. So he jumps at it because he is personally committed to the antislavery cause. But this is also an opportunity for him to better himself. And these are kind of the twin stories of stills life that he always sees these two things working hand in hand. So this is an opportunity for a kind of steady paycheck for a salary thats going to allow him to become independent and then live the kind of activist life that he wants to live. Okay. Now, his role as clark was not one of a scrivener. I mean, how would you define that role in more modern terms in connection with those particular societies . Yeah, i mean, i think when we hear the term clark today, i dont think we truly appreciate the significance of the role that these sorts of people were playing in all sorts of enterprises in the 19th century. The Clarks Clarks<\/a> were this kind of growing class of urban professionals who were making business work. These were the people who kept records, who did all sorts of things and still is doing that in some respects at the Antislavery Society<\/a> being a clerk for still at the Antislavery Society<\/a> also meant that he was kind of doing everything that was required of him. There was lots of work to be done. This was a place where it was a kind of clearinghouse for abolitionist information. In philadelphia. So theres a book store there. Hes hes working there. They put out an abolitionist newspaper. So hes involved in the production and the distribution of this newspaper where hes there, you know, so lots of the people who are involved in the Antislavery Society<\/a> kind of come and go. Theyre traveling around, making speeches. Is the guy whos there all the time. And in that capacity, he also gets involved in this other part of the abolitionist work, the part for which we know him the best, which is the Vigilance Committee<\/a>. Right. This is the organize ized association that is committed to aiding fugitive slaves in any way needed. And thats still okay. Now, before we get into some examples of the work on the Vigilance Committee<\/a>, the acting committee of the Vigilance Committee<\/a> that he headed, where did these societies from . Where do they derive their support, their Financial Support<\/a> . So, so still is officially employed by the pennsylvania Antislavery Society<\/a>. So thats his official role. Thats where his salary comes from. Theres a kind of unofficial relationship between the Antislavery Society<\/a> and the Vigilance Committee<\/a>, but the bulk of the funds for the Vigilance Committee<\/a> have to be independently raised. And so this is one of stills responsible parties is to to to find out how to get the money that will make all of this work happen. And much of that work involved drawing on the commitment of the black community of philadelphia to this kind of work. So there were Public Meetings<\/a> held in black churches, for example, where money was raised for the Vigilance Committee<\/a> and abolitionists also traveled across the atlantic. So a significant portion of the Vigilance Committee<\/a>s funds came from british abolitionists who were quite supportive of this work, still didnt travel across the atlantic, but his employer at the Antislavery Society<\/a>, miller mckim, did. And so hes sort of getting Revenue Streams<\/a> from all over now describe to us the work of the Vigilance Committee<\/a> in connection with the underground railroad and stills work in particular. Sure. So so i think i hinted at this earlier when we were talking about Harriet Tubman<\/a>. I mean, all sorts of people all over the place are doing this work. Lots of people are committed to aiding fugitive slaves on a small scale, informal basis, sometimes, sometimes repeatedly. And what still in the Vigilance Committee<\/a> do is connect those people. To give you an example. So Harriet Tubman<\/a> is going to travel into the Eastern Shore<\/a> of maryland and aid fugitive slaves and traveling often. Shes not going to come all the way back to philadelphia. Shell hand fugitives off to a still ally, Thomas Garrett<\/a> and Thomas Garrett<\/a> will then send them on their way to philadelphia. Now, the storys not done there because in philadelphia theyre not safe either. There are slave catchers in philadelphia, the fugitive slave law applies. And so this is a very dangerous place to be and so still needs to be prepared. And when people are coming his way in philadelphia to move them on to the next step, typically that meant a train to new york city, which was also not safe for them. Right. So in new york city, they have to also have someone who still has prepared increasingly using Communications Technology<\/a> like the telegraph. So that they know that when they arrive that theyre going to be there and help them get on the next step. So its the work that still is doing is sort of drawing all these people together and connecting them to make sure that the work that they, in some cases were already doing is done more effectively because after all, the people who are hunting fugitive slaves are also getting more organized and better at their jobs. Okay. Now were looking at photographs of the members of the just the acting committee of the Vigilance Committee<\/a>. So this is a mixed bag. So these are some men who would have been on the larger Vigilance Committee<\/a> and some who are on the acting committee, which is a four Man Committee<\/a> of the men who are on a day to day basis doing the work of the Vigilance Committee<\/a> and these were integrated committees, were they not . Thats correct. So the pennsylvania Antislavery Society<\/a> itself is a interracial organization that i would say most of the leadership is white, but not exclusively the when we get down to the acting committee of the Vigilance Committee<\/a>, however, it is interracial. But of the four men who are working still among them, three of them are black and the lone white man is a man named passmore williamson. So interracial for sure, but we, we see a sort of division of labor within these antislavery organizations. Now, one of the themes running through your book is of still another african africanamericans being agents of their own flight to freedom and this is sort of counter to the story of white benevolence and blacks as victims. Can you give us some more details and expand on that theme . Yeah, i think. When the story begins to be told about the underground railroad, when people began after the civil war began publishing books and begin to to share these stories for for all sorts of reasons, the people who are most prominent in telling these stories are white allies. Right . The people who still is in communication with who still is working with. And so what what begins to emerge very early is this sense that its mostly a white endeavor, right . That its mostly about these sort of philanthropic quakers who are out of the goodness of their heart, opening their homes and taking great risks and helping fugitive slaves. And theres some truth to this. But in this tell, the often fugitive slaves themselves are depicted as like kind of the helpless and kind of, you know, just beneficiaries of all this. And i think when still started to tell his own story of the underground railroad, i think his biggest priority was to make sure that people truly understood that none of this happens without the risks, without the the inventiveness, the courage of the fugitive slaves themselves, people who take risks, who figure out all sorts of ingenious ways to escape from bondage against tremendous odds. Its extremely difficult to to accomplish this. And for all the the work that people like still and allies in the north are doing, ultimately the people who are making all this happen are fugitive slaves and still really feels that its important for that truth to be told. And he and his wife took many of them into their own household on their way further north, sheltered them, and he was also instrumental in getting black churches to raise money for the effort, was he not . Thats correct. So, you know, i think one of the things i truly tried to capture in this book was the extent to which the underground railroad builds on the labor of black families. Those included. You know, again, this is work that people were doing independent of still what his goal was, was to help them do a better job of that. Right. Help make it more likely that aiding a fugitive slave in Chester County<\/a> was going to lead that person to freedom somewhere else. It was not going to trip up somewhere. When it comes to his own family, often fugitive slaves while passing through philadelphia and needed to stay the night before being moved on the next day still would provide them with all sorts of service, including shelter for the night. And so sometime times that meant having somebody else it contacting someone who can do this work. But more often than not, it meant staying in the still home, which meant that letitia still, williams wife, was an integral part of his labor. And we know this because of people writing to William Still<\/a> over and over again. Talk about letitia is still there. Its clear these are letters from people who have ultimately settled in canada for the most part and over and over again they write back to still and they they thank him and they talk about how wonderful his work had been for them. But over and over again, the thing they focus on is letitia still and particularly poignant letters because many of them left other members of their family and their escape to freedom. So receiving the kindness and the still household was always remembered by them. Thats right. They reached the safety of the north and the still children as well. So they have Young Children<\/a> at this time. And so we can imagine people, some of whom might have left behind children of their own in just maybe this one night. They have this place of comfort where they get to be around this loving, still family. So i think its its really poignant to read these letters and see these reminiscences. Okay. Now, stills own book about the history of the underground railroad describes what he calls thrilling and romantic cases of slaves escaping to freedom. Lets turn to a few of them. The first being that of Peter Friedman<\/a>. Please relate that to us. So, Peter Friedman<\/a> is this interesting case. So friedman had had been torn away from his parents at a very young age, sold south first to kentucky, then to alabama. His older brother dies and friedman, over the course of a number of years, is able to save enough to purchase his own freedom and after he does this, he wants to go and find his family. But he doesnt really know much about his family. He knows that they had lived in a home near the delaware river. And so he heads to philadelphia to kind of track down this long lost family. When he gets to philadelphia, unsurprisingly, where he goes is the antislavery office, and thats where William Still<\/a> is. And so he comes in and he begins to tell this guy, William Still<\/a>, who hes never met before. The story that had brought him. And, you know, he tells him, you know, my mother was named sidney, my father was named levon. And all of a sudden, William Still<\/a>, hes shocked. He realizes that this man sitting across from the man, hes never met before, is actually his brother. This was the eldest. These this was the eldest brother who had been left behind by sidney when she fled and she probably expected never to see him again. And here he was, sitting across from his son, his brother william, and was William Still<\/a> successful in getting other members of his family reunited. He was eventually, though, here i think we should give the lions share of credit to Peter Friedman<\/a> himself. So initially theres a plan to send a white man named seth conklin into the south to kind of help them run away. And then that fails. Conklin is ultimately killed and they decide to try to raise money to purchase the family. And this takes a long time. Friedman he takes the name still. Peter still at this point, travels around and raises money among abolitionists as a as a way of finally paying the master the price. Hes asked. And finally, they are able to to purchase his family. So its correct to say that William Still<\/a> also encouraged encouraged agency and other individual and absolutely not just in Peter Friedman<\/a>, but in others to go out and help the cause. Thats right. And peter is able to draw on the connections that william already has. Right. William already has lots of connections among abolitionists. And so peter has a kind of introduction to those abolitionists now, a favorite tale of mine in the book, and one of derring do is resurrected in your book. And that relates to henry brown. Would you please telling his story . Yeah. Henry brown is is i mean, he is a man who is enslaved in richmond, virginia. So he works in a tobacco factory, which is kind of typical of urban slavery in this period. Hes also a married married for one whos enslaved to another man. This is also typical of slavery in this period. And as a result, when that other man decides to sell her and their children, henry brown is left without his family. Is torn apart from his family. He tells this horrifying story of coming home and seeing his wife and children dragged through the streets of richmond in chains. And its at this moment that henry brown decides to run away for many enslaved people. Family was the single Thing Holding<\/a> them, preventing them from taking this great risk to run away. Now that he had been forcibly separated from his family, he figured he had nothing to lose but its still not an easy thing to run away. He lives in richmond. Its not the easiest thing to travel. All that distance. But he concocts a kind of brilliant plan, which is to have himself sealed inside a crate and then mailed from richmond to philadelphia. So he has a white ally who works with him in this regard. And seals him and sends him to philadelphia, where hes been in. This is by rail. Right. So hes being was its by ship. Its by rail. So theres all sort of disjointed network thats going to take him along the way. But its only to take about 24 hours at this point because these kinds of connections have have improved. But its still a tough journey. Its a journey in which hes turned upside down. At one point. And so when he arrives in philadelphia and when he has met at the depot and brought to the antislavery office and the men who have helped make this happen huddle around him, theres a real sincere fear that he hasnt survived. And so they kind of knock tentatively hoping to hear something, and they do. And at that point, they pry off the top of the box and out comes henry brown. So you see here in a famous lithograph. So this is reproduced all over the north. He becomes a celebrated figure of the underground railroad and forever after known as henry box brown. Okay. Now a third compelling story in the book is that of jane johnson. Could you please relate that and also give us some information about the legal background which led to the incident . Sure. So in this case, William Still<\/a> was once again, as he so often was, sitting at his desk in the antislavery office when a boy walks in and puts a note on his desk, and the note says, come to blood goods hotel, there is a woman and her children here who want their freedom. So William Still<\/a> hurries to the hotel and along the way he stops by to pick up his ally on the Vigilance Committee<\/a> passed more. Williamson as i mentioned earlier, the lone white man on the Vigilance Committee<\/a>. So, william, no knows that its going to be useful in this instance to have a white man along with him. And so they arrive at the hotel in or the woman who they later would learn his name, jane johnson, is not there. And so they head directly to the ferry and they find her on the top deck of this ferryboat, ready to take them across the delaware to where they would likely have taken a train to new yo city. So wilamnd passmore, williamson and passmore, williamson stride up to jane joson and they inform her that she is legally free. So the reason for this is that pennsylvania, when they pass their gradual abolition law, had included a provision that allowed slave owners to bring their property into the state and leave with it as long as they didnt overstay six months. That provision had been repealed at this point. So by willingly bringing jane johnson into the free state of pennsylvania, she had legally become free. But as still and williamson informed her being legally free and being truly free are not the same thing. They tell her that she has to take this opportunity, that she has to seize this chance because it might not come again. And so she strides towards them, at which point the man standing behind her, her ostensible master, reaches out and tries to prevent her from escaping this point across out of black men who had gathered on the scene, close in or around the master, and allow jane to escape with William Still<\/a>. So William Still<\/a> takes her into a carriage and and takes her off into the night of philadelphia, where eventually he would send her north to freedom. So in the meantime, this master, this wronged master, decides that he is going to make someone pay for this. So it turns out this guy was a high ranking official in the u. S. Government. He was the new minister to nicaragua on his way to his post. So his plan was to bring jane johnson with her, with him as his slave. He then, you know, he begins to use his connections in politics in philadelphia to try to bring people like William Still<\/a> to justice, ultimately to no avail, ultimately. Still, these these other men who are implicated here are able to get off without pay. Doing any jail time. And so we see a kind of, you know, complicated Legal Environment<\/a> where. Yes. So so first off, fugitive slaves can legally be seized. But people who are legally enslaved, who are brought into pennsylvania. Humphrey but theres also a kind of legal gray area where, you know, influential people are able to to use their connections to to kind of thwart the law. Okay. Now, certainly, William Still<\/a> was no stranger to controversy. William still was no stranger to controversy, didnt shy away from situations in both in philadelphia and involved other actors in the Abolitionist Movement<\/a>. I was surprised, however, to see that he was involved in the aftermath of john browns raid in harpers ferry. Would you tell us something of that . Yeah. So when john brown began making his plans to assault harpers ferry, he understood that the best source of support of intelligence on this operation would be black men like William Still<\/a>. So he comes to philadelphia and hes organizes a meeting where some of the most important black abolitionists in philadelphia, including still are invited to to weigh in and to give their advice to john brown. It seems likely that brown asked all of them to participate in this raid and none of them took him up on it, which suggests a little bit of what they thought about the possibility of success of john browns raid. But clearly still was involved as an advisor. And then, you know, the way he becomes implicated is that his Contact Information<\/a> is actually on one of john browns lieutenants when hes captured at harpers ferry. And so in the aftermath of this, you know, huge controversy, stills name is pretty prominently mentioned. And so at this point, still decides that the records that he has been keeping over all these years are a little dangerous. And so he conceals these records in a cemetery, a black cemetery, where he believes theyre going to be safe. But but, yeah, theres a few moments where still is worried that hes going to be rounded up in this kind of mass hysteria about the raid on harpers ferry. Okay. And its surprising, given the illegal activities in which he was engaged, according to the laws of the time that the still was never prosser acquitted for his in involvement in in the underground railroad. How how do you because he was i mean he would take very public stance stances. Everybody knew he was the guy to contact in philadel phia. How did he manage to escape, prosecute . Yeah. This is one of the i mean, the real questions that i started the book with right when i when i started to realize how public of a figure still was, i didnt have a good answer. And i think what the answer is is that the context in which still was doing this work in the 1850s was quite different than what that would have been, lets say, ten years earlier. So if you knew anything about the history of philadelphia in the thirties and the forties, it was a very dangerous place for africanamerica fans and for abolitionists in general was a place where black churches were burned to the ground, where abolitionists, black and white, were assault it. Other kinds of buildings were constantly threatened. There were some buildings that werent even open to abolitionists because they were afraid and hosting abolitionists, white or black, that they would become a target in the 1850s. Something really interesting is happened, which is that black abolitionists have become increasingly bold in the face of the passage of the fugitive slave law in 1850, black abolitionists began publicly and vehemently asserting their rights to selfdefense. And so in the 1850s, we begin to see when fugitive slaves are on trial in philadelphia, which here happened at whats now independence hall. There would be crowds of black bystanders gathering outside in a kind of threatening way, suggesting that if things dont go our way, bad stuff is going to happen. Right. So the this the story has been flipped a little bit in the 1850s. And i think that boldness, that aggressive black community of the 1850s helps explain why steel can do the work that he does so publicly. Okay, now one one aspect of stills work as a social activist was his emphasis on selfimage occasion and selfimprovement, moral reform in the black community. Could you comment about as a way of improving equality and prospect city and he himself, although he had a rough start at first in philadelphia, eventually became a wealthy coal merchant. Could you comment on that aspect of his activities . So at the time when still is is becoming a young man, obviously the vast majority of africanamericans are enslaved or the vast majority of africanamericans live in the south and are enslaved. But black people in the north are subject to all sorts of discrimination and to the broader sense that somehow that there are less than white people that there are in capable of being independent or of being citizens. And so for lots of black activists, the part of their work was to disprove these ideas. And for many of them, they felt like the way that they lived their own lives was a way of taking a role in disproving this that that by becoming by educating oneself, you could not just better yourself, but you could send a message about what capabilities black people in general had. And its, i think still is always of the belief that, the things that he achieves, the success, the Financial Success<\/a> that he has. Ah, yes. Part of making a more secure life for himself and for his family. But also part of this larger struggle to to make the case to white people who dont believe it, that that someone like him can succeed and can become a prosperous coal merchant. So i think its always those two things for William Still<\/a>. Now, he took an active role in civil rights and one that i want you to talk about. His activities in the cotton text of the 1838 vote by pennsylvanians ratifying a new constitution which allowed rights only to white freeman. What what role did he play in advocating black Citizenship Rights<\/a> . So, you know, this happens before he to pennsylvania and so he he moves into an environment in which hes already disfranchized and so this, i would say, is not the top of his list of priorities in the 1850s when hes doing this underground railroad work. But as his priorities begin to shift during the civil war and afterward, as it does become a priority, this becomes something that still and lots of black abolition is see as the perhaps the number one priority. And so, you know, he begins to attack the disfranchisement of black people in pennsylvania. The number of ways ultimately this is going to be the work of the federal government. Right. Ultimately, its out of his hand. But he you know, he tries to push the argument public that black people are deserving of these rights. I think thats probably the approach he takes the most clearly. He. He founds an organization and in the 1860s the civil war that the social civil and Statistical Association<\/a> their records are also here at hsp really wonderful rich records. This is a kind of activist organization that is attacking all sorts of elements of discrimination against africanamericans. Among them, the lack of the right to vote. So i think hes hes he sees this as a pretty important right for black people to have. Okay. Now, he was also no stranger to controversy. See, within the black community and historically, blacks, once they had regained suffrage, was supportive. Candidates of the Republican Party<\/a> and at some point still comes out against them, automatically voting for republican candidates. Could you describe that . And this comes later in his life. Thats right. So i think there are a couple ways that we might understand this this really surprise move by still i mean, it really shocks a lot of his supporters. It makes people angry. I think on one hand, still comes out of an Abolitionist Movement<\/a> that is had always been deeply skeptical of partizan politics. Right. There are there are certain abolitionists, the ones associated with William Lloyd<\/a> garrison, for example, that out now said voting is immoral. Right. Our society or our government is so corrupt, so corrupted by slavery, that even voting is giving a tacit endorsement to slavery and wont do it. Now, obviously, far more abolitionists ultimately see this new Republican Party<\/a> as a valuable vehicle for attacking slavery. But even then, i think there remains this kind of strand of skeptic system of party politics, and i think still represents that to a certain extent. On a more practical level, i think still looks around him in philadelphia and sees that this is not a Political Party<\/a> that is particularly committed to black rights and republicans in philadelphia for were really resistant to desegregating the streetcars despite their supposed support of antislavery and other sorts of things. And when it comes to it, i think still just doesnt trust them. He doesnt think that they really care that much about black philadelphians. I think hes taking he feels like theyre taking him for granted and that he believes that in endorsing a kind of more independent route of partizan politics, that he can lead the black community of philadelphia to assert its leverage in that way. So he was hoping force both Political Parties<\/a> to perhaps make concessions to the black community rather than letting either party take their vote for granted. Yeah. And here you know, its successful to a certain extent. I think, you know, democrats in in philadelphia do in certain limited instances begin to kind of like make concessions to people, like still as a way of hopefully appealing to this black vote, which is sizable in philadelphia. I think still always we shouldnt misinterpret that to say that William Still<\/a> fully endorses the democratic party, which he understands on a national level, is extremely hostile to the rights of africanamericans, especially in the south. But i think hes looking i mean, hes hes a National Figure<\/a> in a certain sense, but he politically is thinking locally and that things are maybe a little more complicated. Now, you mentioned in passing the streetcars and here again are references to tubman and douglass. When we think of integrating public transportation, we naturally think of rosa parks. But long before rosa parks, when philadelphia streetcars were pulled by horses on rails, steel was the prime advocate in integrating these streetcars. Tell us give us some idea what it was like for a black to try to ride the streetcars of philadelphia. So, you know, as many as many of, you know, pennsylvania or philadelphia was founded as this kind of walking city by william penn and as long as it was a walking city, there was no real pressing need to have public transportation. But as the city began to grow, as it became bigger, and as the distances that people needed to travel between home and work were greater, this kind of transportation became more important. And so streetcars became a vital way that people could move around these streetcars were open to black riders, but not equally open. So there was a platform on the outside, and black patrons had to ride on that platform. They couldnt go on the inside, which was, you know, insulting, obviously, on a certain level, but also could be dangerous. And people fell off these platforms and so still understandably saw this as unacceptable. Especially once during the civil war, when black soldiers were being trained out at camp william penn. And the only way for them to get to their families or to their families to get to them was to ride on the streetcar. The idea that these men were serving their country and yet they couldnt ride on the streetcars was really galling to to still and to others and still took it up as a cause to love. But he wasnt initially very successful. Eventually. There was success. Yeah i think this is this is another instance where it took time for people to come around. Right. Still is pushing this. Even before the civil war began. His first Public Statement<\/a> on this is in the newspaper in 1859. Ultimately, the Republican Party<\/a> needed to change a whole lot of national environmental, politically needed to change a lot for this to really happen. Okay. Now lets go from streetcars back to the underground railroad. And in 1872, he publishes underground railroad, a record of facts, authentic narrative, narrative letters, etc. And at the time of publication, the New York Times<\/a> described it as of the most important eyewitness of american slavery in existence. What lets still to write the book. So he had been telling stories of the underground railroad for some time. So i mentioned earlier that he a public figure, that he was known as the leader of the underground railroad and in that capacity, he actually publish it in the newspaper while he was aiding fugitive slaves. Very brief and selective mentioning of people coming through philadelphia. Yeah. So he would, you know, right into the newspaper say x number of people came through. So even at the time he was talking about telling stories about the underground railroad, largely as a way of raising money. Right. You had to you had to be known that he was this work. If people were going to contribute to it after the war, after slavery had been abolished, and after still is sort of moving on to new things, hes especially called upon to tell stories. He becomes a kind of official storyteller of the underground railroad and ultimately he decides to write this book to tell his story because as i mentioned earlier, lots of people were telling different kinds of stories of the underground railroad. And for william, still, the the story that needed to be told was the story of fugitive slaves themselves. And so this is really his effort to get that story out there and to get people to read it. So in part, its a story of black agents, how these people help themselves. It is were not were not victims in this. You to adopt the language of the underground railroad. They were agents of the underground railroad. I think actually maybe even a better way of thinking about it was to say that fugitive slaves were the underground railroad. They didnt ride the underground railroad. They were the underground railroad. Now, a seminal document for that was, of course, his journal. And were very pleased to have journal si out for us today, along with other still related artifact access the Historical Society<\/a>. And earlier today, i and a guest were given access to some of the treasures of the society. And im happy to note that the still journal was kept in the same safe as early drafts of the declaration of independence and early printings of the constitution of the united states. So it is really cherished in this institution. Now, could you give us some idea why he kept the journal and what its importance is to scholars today . So its wonderful to hear the way that its being keep being kept. I mean, it is i see it as a document in the spirit of these other founding documents. I mean, this is a hugely historically consequential document. So the reason why there are a couple of reasons why William Still<\/a> is keeping kinds of records, which, as we mentioned is a potentially dangerous thing to do not just for himself but for others. Writing to implicates others in this work and maybe even provides a pathway for recovering people who have fled slavery. So the first thing is still is operating in this increasingly complicated organ ization that is raising money and spending money. And part of what these records are doing is accounting for that spending. So Vigilance Committee<\/a>s were constantly being accused of misspending money and still didnt want to be that. You dont have that problem. I think probably more interesting is that after especially after hes reconciled with his brother this thing that that i think nobody even thought was possible still begins to look at these records as a means of helping other people reconcile with family members. People are fleeing slavery, leaving family members behind. What still begins to hope is that we can keep these records and someday some of these people members. And so, you know, its not just a record of the money hes spending. He has this kind of, you know, these records of where these people are coming from. Name descriptions insofar as he has them. This kind of detail he hopes is going to allow people to recover these lost families. And its not just the that they fled with, but the new names that they adopted. So they could hide up north or in canada and not be returned to slavery . Well, i think thats a good point at which to end our discussion. It is a terrific book. A page turner. You give a really three dimensional view of this individual who had been relegated to obscurity in light of all these other individuals who were perhaps more colorful than if they escaped slavery themselves. But his role was absolutely pivotal and i think of the arguments made to put Harriet Tubman<\/a> on the 20 bill. And i would hate to displace franklin. But if she deserves to be on the 20 bill, still deserves to be on the hundred dollar bill. And we would certainly appreciate that. Yeah, no. And i also couldnt help thinking that because of your book and the efforts of other people, there have recently been an historical plaque outside of one of the houses that he lived on, on dell high street. Thats suddenly hes being given his due. And as somebody who works so hard for so long and even got criticism within his own community from some of the young turks who didnt think he was doing enough, its great to see his reputation being restored. Now we have time for questions. The audience and i think microphones are going to be passed around. So thank you again for a terrific discussion. Our pleasure. If theres a question, i can pass the mic. I believe you should, that there was some support being brought from england, didnt england have their own issues with slavery . So i certainly you know, the english had an intimate involvement in the slave trade in they operated colonies where there was enormous dependance upon slave labor. By this point, by the time were talking about William Still<\/a>, the british had abolished not just the slave trade, but also slavery within their colonies. Now, if you know anything about those colonies, they turned to other kinds of coercive labor. So i think for sure they had their own problems, but they didnt. You know, at this point they had divorced themselves from formal enslaved of african people. So so there was, you know, significant support in Great Britain<\/a> for helping american abolition. Just in this context. Why do you think its taken this long for america to wake up to these stories . I have this is a big question. Why do you think its taken this long for america to wake up to these stories. So i think, you know, this is a big question, and i think there are probably lots of reasons for this. I think in general, it depends on where you are, i think, you know, in certain places, i think we have done a very good job of highlighting africanamerican history. We are in a place in city, philadelphia where this has been a priority, where its taught, i think, very well in a Public School<\/a> system, we commemorate black leaders and important figures publicly. I think in general, across the country, maybe thats not necessarily true. I think even when we think about a place like philadelphia, where we do this history, a little bit better, i think we sometimes dont have enough bandwidth to cover people. Its like were going to were going to study Frederick Douglass<\/a> and Harriet Tubman<\/a>, and thats it. We dont have room for another black abolitionist. I think partly what im trying to do in this book is to make the case that we should make space for William Still<\/a>, that hes important. How about the white militias . Why havent those . I dont know. Theyre you know, i think i think the story of the Abolitionist Movement<\/a> is sometimes complicated. Its filled with conflicts. It can be contentious, i guess, depending on where you are. Maybe people dont want to tell this story at all. Its not politically convenient, but i think i mean, i think in general, we told that story better than we have the story of black abolitionists. But i think both of them deserve more attention than theyve gotten. On the screen. You have there mentions examining something some of the runaway enslaved people. What was the actual process that, you know, still, if someone when somebody showed up, what actually happened . Yes. So they would come in and he would interview them and he would write down what they told him. The other you know, i mentioned a couple of reasons why he was keeping these records. A third reason was to verify that they were who they said they were. So, you know, theres a lot of there arent a lot of Economic Opportunities<\/a> for free black people in places like philadelphia. And so theres a tremendous incentive to kind come in and, you know, claim that you are who you are, not to get a little bit of extra money from these people who are willing to give it out. And so still is quite aware that he doesnt want to do that. So so part of what hes doing in interviewing is getting this information out. But part of it is sort of eyeing this person and saying, you know, do i trust what this person is saying to me . In some instances, he doesnt trust that person. So he gets into trouble in this regard. At one point. But. But yeah, i think there are these multiple reasons why hes examining them and forwarding. Did everybody know where they wanted to go or what information you need to know so its going to vary. So the most common place he would send them is new york city. So new york city because its another transportation hub that becomes a very convenient place for them to get a train to either new england, you know, lots of fugitive slaves ended up in places like new bedford, which was a kind of haven for fugitive slaves. Even better, all the way to canada, where legally slave catchers couldnt proceed, pursue them. So i think i mean, i dont think that anyones being forced to go anywhere. I think still is saying this is your best bet, you should go here. Heres where im going to, you know, encourage you to go. Ultimately, its up to them what they do and some state rights, some people decide to stay in philadelphia. So thats not is not the case that everybody has to move on. Could you Say Something<\/a> about the quakers census of 1838 and the reasons behind it and how comprehensive it was and how useful it is today . So there were a number of these kind of systematic attempts to assess the black community of philadelphia here. And, you know, this is coming out of a community that is and had long been deeply committed to aiding not just enslaved people from escaping bondage, but helping free black people who often found themselves in poverty without many opportunities. And so this a part of the broader effort of the society of friends to help black philadelphians, also to get a sense of what the real problem is. I mean, theres a lot of kind of misinformation and a lot of kind of stereotyping about what, you know, how rampant black poverty is in philadelphia. So i think this is a sense of getting a full and complete picture of what black philadelphia is. Were you able and thank you for writing the book, but were you able to get into his family today . There is an exhibition, of course, at the museum of the American Revolution<\/a> on 14, and one of the fabulous things about it is it began to unite the family. You know, they didnt know when they started researching. So that first where was he buried . And second, are there any stills left . Okay. So the first one is, you know, Eden Cemetery<\/a> is where hes buried, but theres a huge still family. They have huge family reunions every year. You know, as i said, hes the youngest of 18 children. I was so early on in the process of writing the book, i got in touch with a man whos a still descendant, a descendant of his older brother, samuel, still and sam still is an active still his family historian. So he he shares family history. Hes the president of the james Still Society<\/a> in south jersey. And so he knows a whole lot. William still and so i was very conscious of in writing this book, stepping into this world where i was an outsider, where there were people who had been telling this story for generations. And i wanted to find it very carefully, tread into that world. Recognizing that its sometimes a contentious world. Right . All families have conflicts and still family is no different. And so people have lots of different ideas about what this history is. And so i will not say that i was comprehensive and tried to, you know, get gather everything that i could from the still family, but sam was really valuable in reading it. You know, we had conversations early on and he read the manuscript and helped me avoid some awful that im thrilled did not make it into the book. But but yeah. I think it actually i did a talk just a couple of weeks ago in south jersey where the vast majority of people there were still descendants. And so it was really kind of intimidating, but also very exciting to give, you know, to talk to folks who, you know, who have a connection to this history that i could never have. And i want to thank everybody and im happy to hear that there are still stills, even though their name was originally steel. I understand that we have a few books left. If you have time to inscribe a few more and not getting cramps in your arm and again, thank you, everybody, for coming. Thanks to hsp for hosting us. And david would you like to say some closing remarks. Jay and andrew, first of all, thank you both. This was really an amazing, very engaging way to spend part of our afternoon. So thank you, andrew, for sharing your research and these very important american stories. So thank you both for that. 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