that change your way of thinking, there's one book that did that for me when i was in college and that was the feminine misty misty my betty freeman and literally a lightbulb went on when i read that book and i decided that maybe my life was not going to consist of getting married and having children and living that kind of life that i should be thinking about taking care of myself and expanding my own horizons. i can honestly say that is one book that totally changed my way of thinking about myself. >> is there any reading that you do like nonfiction or historical that helps you do your job in the senate? >> well, there's a lot of reading that i do just on issues such as, i read a lot about immigrationin our country because , immigration reform is something that we need to address and that's very purposeful for me as an immigrant area i read about what's going on in the middle east, i read a lot of those kinds of articles. i read about what's going on in the supreme court and so those are the kinds of informational background reading that i do a lot of that informs my decision-making. and that's sorta different from the kinds of books i deal with like the millionaire and the bride, those are more for pleasure but i learned a lot reading this particular book.>> where you get your book suggestions? >> i usually look through the new york times book section. and whenever i see books mentioned in magazines, i tear out the page. i actually have a file, books that i want to read. and i do borrow books from the library of congress for example. i read a lot of mysteries for fun. i've read all of carlin xers mysteries, these are english mysteries and i'm sort of an anglophile. but literally, i think the file from books that i want to get to and also when i go to the national gallery which is part of my routine over the weekend, if i'm in dc is to go to the national gallery for the personal and i love to look through the books there and i'll usually find something that i like that intriguing. in fact, i think it was there that i picked up this book on folger. >> book tv wants know what you're reading this summer. we just your answer at book tv or you can post it on our facebook page, facebook.com/book tv. >> c-span. created by america's television companies and party was a public service by your cable or satellite provider. >> next on book tvs afterwards program, manhattan institute senior fellow heather mcdonald discusses policing in america. she's interviewed i delores jones-brown, professor at john jay college about her book "the war on cops: how the new attack on law and order makes everyone less safe". >> good afternoon mrs. mcdonald how are you today? >> guest: thank you so much dolores. >> host: i haven't had the opportunity to talk with you about your new book "the war on cops". we know each other through these panels together but one of the first thingsi'd like to ask you , i'm asking about whether or not the justice system in and police are in particular are racist. what's your definition of racism? you don't get one in the book but you talk a lot about racism and being racist. how should we seek a definition of racism? >>. >> guest: i think it's hostile treatment toward a person on the basis of his or her skin color. >> host: okay. and the person who would be a racist would do what? >> guest: make judgments about somebody based on skin color alone or even as part of a other set of characteristics. what we hear from the black lives matter movement is that cops are racist, that they are in minority neighborhoods and oppressing people in those communities, presumably that would seem really out of women or freese because there's never any explanation as to why officers would be in those communities so i am simply adopting a phrase that is often bandied about by black lives matter protesters, i go to these protests and i see the signs that say racist killer cops, kkk cops.they are suggesting that cops are motivated by racial animus in the law enforcement actions that they take. >> host: you previously wrote a book and not i think the title is something like our cops racist westmark that book was published in time when there was an incident on the new jersey turnpike where for young men, three african-american and one latino man were shot by two police officers and shot 11 times. in the, specifically the two officers entered for having provided false information about who they were sobbing on the turnpike, these officers admit that they had in fact targetedblacks and latinos and that they had been told to do so by superiors mark . >> guest: well, that was part of the guilty plea, you're right. but evidence that was more broad-based and statistical that the new jersey attorney general used to show disparities in stock did not take into account driving behavior. and there was a study that was subsequently done by the same statistical organization that had contributed to the justice department and new jersey attorney general's decision that looks at driving behavior and found that blacks said on the new jersey turnpike at twice the rate of white drivers and that the disparities were over 90 miles per hour or even greater. it's not clear that officers can even see the rates of drivers at night and stop them by radar near the same disparities but were driven overwhelmingly by driving behavior. so i former prosecutor and one of the things i love to do a trial was to use the phrase by your own admission when i had defendants on the stand for cross-examination so should i understand you to say that even though these officers admitted that they engage in racial targeting on the highway and that their supervisors had advised them to do so, we should give less credence to that than a set of statistics? >> guest: the set of aggregate statistics goes to the overall behavior of the new jersey state troopers. if these guys were engaged in drug interdiction and let's say they were being told to go after you make an custody and they had the dea keeps very close track of who is doing the drug smuggling between the eastern corridor and so if they are looking for a particular drug gang that is racially identified, to me it seems legitimate that that would be on parts of the ground for pulling somebody over but for average traffic stops, i just don't think that's happening. >> host: you spend much of the book and you spent much of your recent career talking about the effectiveness of stop and frisk in new york city and denying that it involves racism in terms of how it's practiced . but you are aware that a commander, an inspector, a deputy inspector has on audiotape the recording introducing the floyd trial, the trial that you write about specifically in thebook , saying that you've got to stop the right people. male blacks between the ages of 14, 21. but he doesn't go on to say anything, only if you have these suspicions, he stops at suspicion of the right people with no black ages 14, 20 or 21. isn't that another admission at least some members of the new york city police department believe that all male blacks are going to get them off and such targeting is unwarranted? >> i don't think that's a fair characterization of what he was caught on tape same. he had called in a police officer who is wired, who had recently joined lawsuit employed and the fact that he had done absolutely no proactive activity in the previous year, this was one of those officers on the way low and of the bell curve of officers that are trying to get out of their car and investigate suspicious behavior and he put out hypothetical, he said if we had a rivalry pattern involving young black males between the ages of 14 and 22, that's who you should be stopping. he was goaded into saying that, it was clear from this interaction that this guy came in hoping to get him to say something that could be used in the floyd trial, it was not something he just sat out of the blue on his own initiative but even as he phrased it, i find nothing objectionable about that. was giving hypothetical of a robbery pattern and to be honest, it's a hypothetical that sadly mirrors the situation in new york city. that praise on minority victims in minority neighborhoods. when you look at who is committing robberies in new york, after 23 percent of the population they commit the percent of all robberies. wi-fi contrast or 34 percent of the population. they commit or percent of all robberies. so it's in those minority neighborhoods where you have elderly people getting stuck up so when he came up with this pattern, it's one that his police officers here again and again not from themselves but from the victims of robbery themselves and police officers hope against hope that they will for once get a description of the suspect in a violent street crime whether it's a drive-by shooting or a robbery that is white but given the ineluctable fact of how crime is distributed in cities today, that almost never happens. >>. >> host: on definition of racism and that includes the definition i call classic racism, it seeks behavior of a few people from a particular view and then that behavior on to everyone in the group. so for example we've known since 1972 that in urban communities across philadelphia in the book that the greatest amount of serious crime is actually committed by a very small number of what martin called active criminals. so the notion that, and that pattern held over time, right? there's a small number of active criminals who are violent offenders. the nypd's own statistics on stock question and frisk state that roughly 80 to 90 percent of all stops do not produce an arrest for summons and that roughly, i'll take the year 2012. 80 percent of blacks that were stopped during that year were not found to engage in criminal behavior. so if you're an innocent black person who is unfortunate enough to live in a high crime area, what you make of those physics from the police department? >> guest: first of all, i have found it easy to meet young black males who said they've never been stopped. i spoke to a boy in mouthful section of the bronx he said i've never been stopped because i'm a good boy. goes to work, he goes to school, these not hanging out on the corners and in philadelphia as you mentioned i like about a book that was written about young crack dealers there by alex kaufman: one. he devotes a whole chapter 2 who she calls the cleaning people who are precisely the ones you mentioned dolores who do not, they drink beer rather than smoke marijuana, they stay home late video games, they're not hanging out in the street lights and they had no interaction with the cops. i've also met people who say yes, i've been stopped by the cops . and i understand why that was happening, the cops were doing their job or it it is, there's no question that blackmails today face a much higher rate of getting stopped when they are innocent and white male do today and that's contact that the community unfortunately pays because of the elevated rates of crime but i would take issue with your characterization of these stop data. it's true, about six percent. result in an arrest and six percent.resulted in a summons. the aclu, the legal aid society through the conclusion that that meant every other stop that was necessarily an innocent person and that's not the case. the open-air drug dealing are very carefully choreographed to make sure that officers do not have probable cause to make an arrest. there's a careful segmenting of who's got the money, who's got the drug, the contraband is often kept in a neutral location. so somebody, a police officer can be intervening in open-air drug dealing without having the probable cause to make an arrest and if somebody, let's say there's been a pattern of carpet on a street and an officer these somebody walking along a line of cars trying door handles, there's no probable cause to make an arrest for that. but that may well avert another car theft in that neighborhood. so we don't know what number of stops were in fact intervening in criminal behavior but i'm certain it's not a zero percent. >> host: let's go back to your discussion of these attacks on the innocent members of high crime or even low crime communities, right? because if you're familiar with the research that says in neighborhoods where blacks and latinos only make up 14 percent of the residential population, they make up 70 percent of the stops in those locations. so it would seem that when you're in a high crime community low crime community, so long as you are black or latino you stand a greater risk of being stopped under the practices that were challenged in court by the lawsuit, right? so let me ask you dolores, what do you think stock rates should look like? in new york city as i mentioned where 23 percent of the population commit 70 percent of all shootings, they committed, all robberies. as far as shootings,, that fluctuates from year to year but it goes from 75 percent to 80 percent. when you add hispanic shootings to black shootings in new york city you account for 98 percent of all shootings. that type of criminal behavior is going to manifest itself in other types of lawbreaking, low-level lawbreaking. right? commit less than two percent of all shooting, though they are 34 64 percent of the population, given those prime disparities you think that stock rates should mirror population data? should this whites the 34 percent of all stops and black percent of all stops even though whites are virtually not present in violent street crimes? >> host: you and i have talked about this before and i take the position that people are individuals and that anytime we group individuals together and make assumptions about the individuals and the entire group based on the behavior of a few that that is problematic, right? your lawyer, i'm a lawyer. there's a constitutional amendment that says we shall not do that, that everyone should enjoy equal protection under the law whether they are criminal or noncriminal so arguably, that's one of the first issues in terms of looking at aggregate data. >> guest: to criticisms i would suggest that people might be making about the book. it contains a lot of information and we only have an hour to talk about it. >> host: can i make one point? i would love to get your answer on this. about two years, as you recall, the new york times was focusing on the 73rd precinct in brownsville brooklyn which had a heist operate. what they never compared, let's compare brownsville to bay ridge brooklyn which is several miles away. now, the stock rate differential between brownsville and bay ridge is about 15 times greater, there's the per capita rate of people in brownsville and stopped, they have about 15 times greater chance of being stopped than those people living in bay ridge and it is true that brownsville is predominantly black and bay ridge is predominantly white and asian. what's left out of that analysis is that the per capita shooting rates in brownsville is 81 times higher than in bay ridge. what that means is that every time, and this is again, it's not coming from the police. these are people reporting these shootings. this means every time there's a gang drive-by shooting, the police are going to be out there inhigh numbers , making stops to try and let the rival gang no that they are being observed. and given that degree of shooting differential and the inevitable response of police to it, in order to try to prevent another person being either wounded or shot, will result in a higher rate of stops and again, if you go to the data driven accountability meetings where local precinct commanders are held ruthlessly accountable for the crime and their solutions for it in their precinct, they don't talk about race, they talk about where people are being victimized and given these disparities in new york city of where people are being shot, the police are going to be doing proactive policing, pedestrian stops in those neighborhoods that will generate the data that shows these disparities that the aclu will then use against the nypd in a lawsuit but they have no choice but to be there. >> host: i'm glad you use the word choice because i wrote a note in a in the margins of your book that is your position that innocent blacks have no choice but to accept high rates of stops and in terms of policing, high rates of low-level enforcement in order to have public safety? >> guest: i think that officers have an obligation to treat everybody they meet with courtesy and respect and if an innocent person is stopped and subjected to the humiliation and possibly terror of being stopped by the police, the police have to explain to him why he was stopped. ideally play the radio call back and that officers should not walk away from that interaction without making sure that that person understands why he was stopped and ideally has reached some sort of agreement but as far as the broken windows policing you mentioned and these are the low-level quality-of-life public order offenses, every time i go to a police community meeting in the south bronx or central harlem or central brooklyn, what i hear from the residents of those neighborhoods is they want more policing, not less. and they're not saying arrest the robbers. they're saying bring public order. they say you arrest the drug dealers and their back on the corner the next day. there's kids hanging out in my lobby smoking weed and dealing drugs, i'm terrified to go down and pick up my mail. i spoke the cancer entity in the mouth hope ... my point is that the police are getting these requests from the members of the community themselves. >> host: but the police also got the request from the members of the community and that's how we ended up with the lawsuit to talk about in your book like davis floyd and lego, right? so those requests for working parents that said my son can't go to the store and come back home without being stopped by the police. there were actually some media reports of people who lived in buildings being stopped in their pajamas on the way to the trash bin and asked for identification so the notion that at least two sets of voices including voices of police officers, right? because it's often not talked about that in the floyd case there were former and current police officers that testified against the practice of stop and frisk. why you think that is not often mentioned? >> guest: i think the officers they got were disgruntled officers. these are inevitably people were under observation for doing basically nothing on the job, just trying to protect the members of the community in which they work from violence. given the rhetoric around stock question and frisk, i would have thought that the aclu and the new york civil liberties union would have been able to find hundreds of completely clean the people that had been stopped for no reason at all. the ligonier plaintiff which they had whittled down and finally got i think 11 named plaintiffs in the class-action lawsuits had massive criminal histories. one of them, wb, he went by in the lawsuit last year was utterly indicted for gaining conspiracy for stopping a boy to death in the bronx several years ago. he was one of the plaintiffs in this suit who was complaining about being recklessly stopped. i would submit, and he was well-known to the people in that precinct. when they saw he was a named plaintiff couldn't believe their eyes. there's a reason why he was stopped because he's involved in gang activity. >> host: i hate to cut you off again but to be fair we had a police commissioner and collections commissioner, all one person who ended up federally indicted as well and spent time in prison and he came out of prison being able to talk more concretely about the horrors of incarceration and the last three chapters of your book talk more about incarceration and that sort of thing than it does the war on cops, right? why do you include those last three chapters? they seem to have little to do with the war on cops topic that thebook is titled after . >> guest: my point is that the black lives of matter movement has a much broader focus and we are living through a moment where there's hardly a single law enforcement practice that's not under attack for having a disparate impact on blacks and currently we live in a narrative now of mass incarceration so that is part of this large-scale attack on the legitimacy of the criminal justice system of the same charges are brought to bear against incarceration practices as are brought to bear against discretionary proactive policing, the same disparate impact argument that the misrepresentation of blacks in prison is due to racism, a sort of unspecified somewhere along the line whether it's police officers, juries, prosecutors or judges so i see them actually as part of the same narrative that i'm trying to push back against. >> host: what do you save your critics who would say as a middle-class white woman who has a very strong education background, you went to stanford, you went to cambridge, you have a degree in english and a law degree. why would it be appropriate for you to, and i'm going to read from the back jacket of the book itself, right? it says mcdonald gives voice to the many residents of high crime neighborhoods who want proactive policing. she was that race-based attacks on the criminal justice system from the white house on down are eroding yet authority of law and putting lives at risk. the statistics suggest you would be the one least victimized by crime, that you would be the one least likely to have a nonconsensual contact with a police officer. so to your critics, why would it be appropriate for you to take on this role that as we've already discussed, talks about one side of the issue as people who want proactive policing and doesn't talk enough about those who say i've been the victim of proactive policing quest and how do you respond to the critics who say that? >> guest: first of all, i don't think race has anything to do with it. i think that's a dangerous path start down the red. >> host: you said race doesn't have anything to do with it, which it? >> guest: it's my right to describe what i see happening in high crime areas as a result of this large-scale delegitimization of law enforcement. i don't feel like i am less representative by president barack obama because he's black or that my congressman may be black, therefore he doesn't speak for me. i assume that every individual is trying as you say to address the fact that he sees them, i don't think skin color credential ices or decrease in july submit to write about policing and i wonder if you would raise the same complaints against a jeffrey fagan or white criminologist who also has looked at this and taken the exact opposite position. you don't have to be of any particular race to attend these meetings where you hear people begging for police protection. bernard harcourt, another ... >> host: i'm going to interrupt you again because i want to go back to the other part of that question which is you spend a great deal of the book critiquing some social science research but is it really anything in your educational background that suggest that you had training in social science research with mark so clearly one of the critiques is the nonsocial scientist critiquing social science research have been forced to conclude that if anything, they found blacks are in prison less for homicide than the rates of homicide commission would predict. even michael conroy was forced to conclude that black rates of criminal offending explains their high representation in prison, so i'm happy to look at social science research, but so far it has not been able to validate the mass incarceration needs and-- host: and has not been able to validate that efficacy either; right? i'm sure you are feeling with david harris. he's a law professor and david wrote a book called failed evidence and he asked police why don't they use more social science research and one of the responses was if you look at statistics you can find anything that contradicts the other, so i don't want to run out of time before we talk about the topic of right crime. this a subheading in "the war on cops", have a new attack on law and order makes everyone less safe, i challenge the use of the word new. you are familiar with the commission from the 1920s and 30s. in his 14 volume report they had a chapter or set of-- a volume on lawlessness in law enforcement. now, the commission was looking at law enforcement behavior in relation to prohibition. during the prohibition era the drive-by shooters were white. they were white and mostly middle-age fighting over territory. to do what? guest: bootleg. host: okay. we know that this notion of drive-by is not-- as you pointed out before a single race phenomenon because we saw the valentine's day massacre and all kinds of interesting shooting in public places when the offenders were white. do you know have a resolve that issue when the drive-by shooters were white? guest: the avenue moving towards prohibition-- lifting prohibition i don't know. host: right, so they legalize the kind of behavior that was producing this kind of violence. in for a mostly white in the united states the possession of marijuana for recreational purposes has been legalized. we in new york city disproportionately arrest young black males for possession of marijuana while statistics suggest marijuana used in the city probably is predominantly white male and better educated. given those differences, why is it that you spend so much time in the book focusing in on black crime and essentially denying that there is any-- [inaudible] speech you i'm in violent street crime and i care about black lights and you have now blacks die nationally at six times the rates of whites and hispanics can mine. that is a problem. the reason that is the case is that blacks commit homicide at eight times the rates of whites and hispanics combined. 's james alan fox looked at young male uses of gone homicide and found that black males between the ages of 14 and 17 commit gun homicide at 10 times the rate of whites and hispanics combined, so if you want to save lives, the lives that are being lost at greatly disproportionate rates are black in this country. we have talked about the absolute numbers before. we have figured out how to read these. over 6000 blacks are killed every year-- host: what is the source of that 6000? guest: from the fbi. host: i'm glad you brought that up. guest: let me add that is more than white and hispanic homicide deaths combined and blacks are 13% of the population, so if you want to say that black lives, homicide is where you look in the drive-by shootings is where you look and there have been different patterns of crime in the past, but what we have now, the police are dealing with what is right before them in the streets, so we-- host: re: alan fox article, research is used a lot in your book, research in crime and we have talked about the fact that we have low crime numbers, increase by one if it is a baseline is one is at 50% increase. so, when we talk about these percentages, sometimes you are only talking really small raw numbers, for example in the alan fox piece they use the word surge, but they don't talk about the fact that in 22 states the homicide got rate for black men actually went down. a 248% increase in idaho for young men-- not black men, engaged in gun homicide. certainly would represent a search, so there is this question of why is it that we spend so much time and you and i have talked about that, that if we spent more time talking about crime in general from a perspective that involves variables likely changed, no one can change their race, that we can change the other kind of contributor to violent crime, that we might be able to and i want to talk specifically because we are talking about crime because it's something we don't spend enough time talking about, okay. you talk about specifically black lives, but if we look at the names like dylan ruthven james holmes and out of lance eric harris and dylan kabul we are talking about 54 dead people, 92 injured people including-- excuse me, 20 children ages six through seven in just four incidents. don't we want to be concerned and certainly there is a lot of media attention to these deaths, rights. how can the kind of policing tactics described in the book help prevent those kinds of incidents? guest: well, they are completely different incidents, i think, and if i frankly wear black i be offended by the white hysteria over shootings. because those numbers of white kids that were killed, you get that tally in maybe half a year easily of blacks through drive-by shootings. the media despite their absolute commitment to the black lives matter narrative, basically ignored in cleveland in september, of 2015, there were three children under the age of five who were killed in drive-by shootings. we don't know their names. there was not a massive uproar about that. of the police to some cleveland, who happens to be black within two years. he said why is everyone protesting the cops when they don't protest when we kill each other. there was a 9-year old girl and ferguson, missouri who was killed on her bed studying in august of 2015. host: i had often heard that statement you just made that people don't protest the lives or deaths of black people. there are at least 20 organizations and i think at least a 10 in new york city, that actually do. their community grassroots organizations of mothers against murder and various other organizations that do, in fact, protest the deaths of black or white people at the hands of similar race because statistics in decay that if you are going to get killed more than likely you will be killed by someone who knows you or may even be intimate with you and so one of the things because we talk about hard facts and one of the things we don't want to do, we don't want to perpetuate those lists that there isn't anything that communities are doing to protest that individual loss of life at the hands of other individuals who are not police. guest: you are absolutely right, dolores work that is not what black lives-- i have yet to hear a black lives matter purchase any of these killings, but you are correct. there are other groups. host: local groups. guest: and maybe it's the media's fault for not paying attention because i know you are correct. there was a girl beaten to death by another girl earlier this year in brooklyn, coney island and there was a local protest to saying why do we keep doing this, so you are absolutely right host: and went to look at the statistics and unfortunately the criminal justice statistics were defunded when the federal authorities went to their budgetary issues, but the last set of data that they had on homicides from 2011, desegregated by race. so, for those who are both over and under age 18, 4000 people who were whites were arrested for the offense of homicide and 4149 people who were black were arrested for the offense of homicide. so, you agree those simulators-- those are close rather than par part? guest: yes. host: the statistics would suggest the overwhelming percentage of white homicide arrests were also white and that the overwhelming victims of black arrestees were black. why is it that we don't see a discussion of white crime in your book because we would all be concerned about the white victims from the white perpetrators would be not? guest: i would be happy to d racialized this discussion. not the one who started this. this is a product of decades of race based attack on police officers claiming that they are on some sort of racist event data against blacks and that the end result that we see with the black disproportionate prison is due to criminal justice racism. that's a very dangerous lie that increases the hostility that officers are getting in the streets. it's not me who has made this a racial discussion it is decades of activists, their immediate enablers, but let's look at those absolute numbers. of the issue, again, is what is the per capita rate and the fbi data shows-- host: every time we talk about race and per capita and percentages we de- individualized behavior, right. so, one of the things your book talks about is sort of personal responsibility and parental response ability and it went to segue a bit here to make a particular point. your book i read from cover to cover and the other book i read most closely cover to cover to your book was, between the world to me. in that book he talks about the death of prince jones and i play with the case. right. prince georges mother was a medical doctor, his father's corporate executive and they were married. a long segment of the book talks about the fathers. or we don't talk about his father's without jobs aren't necessarily the best father's. fathers who may have other kinds of mental health or drug addiction problems may not be the best father's. up a marriage is bad, it might be the best children for children to keep it together because you have also data that suggest when children view violence in the home that that increasingly-- increases it the likelihood that they themselves will be violent, so this notion is not the case. doctor jones and her husband were silently middle-class hard-working people. their son went to religious school and was pursuing his degree at howard university. heat, nonetheless, ended up dead at the hands of a police officer who happen to be black because that is what he issues. isn't just a problem with white police officers shooting black victims. no, it's a police issue arguably because we don't want any police shooting innocent and unarmed people who includes a lot of stories about people who are aggressive, but we know that there are all kinds of footage of police officers attacking males and females of color who are not aggressive. you had seen the footage of the chips officer beating the 51-year old homeless woman on the side of the road. you may have seen the footage of the houston police department situation with alleged burglar, 15 years old by the police car and then sat on by the police officers beating him including kicking him in the groin, so i assume you talk about age 45 that police misconduct should be dealt with rigorously. right. you don't necessarily get the definition of police misconduct. when people see this behavior, should it matter what race they are to say this is something that needs to be addressed? and done away with if we can? guest: i take it you are saying we should not pay attention to raise and i am agreeing with you i don't think-- host: so much of it matters does. guest: because that's what the discourses that i'm rebutting. now, if we talk about absolute numbers and you think that race shows you are not important and absolute numbers is what we should be looking about, talk about the category in the "washington post" database of unarmed victims of the police. in 2015, there were 36 black male so-called unarmed victims of police shootings and 31 so-called unarmed white male victims of police shootings. so, let's stop at this point than doing any kind of race shows. those are close numbers. that would suggest if you are looking just at the absolute numbers that we don't have a problem and let's look at those individuals cases which is what i did. i dug into the facts are that database and what i found was that those 36 a black male-- two of them was accidental shooting, so race could not possibly have played a role even though i don't think race played a role to begin with in any of them, but to cut those out several of those people were trying to grab officer's gun or otherwise beating him with his equipment so violently that the officer-- there was a white, who was coming at an officer, so my point is the numbers, you don't think there are white guys that are also shot? host: your book talks about the decision that the government made to sign an executive order to put special prosecutor in charge of police shooting cases or violent cases because we know people are being choked and other kinds of things, right. of the 2014 legislation out of wisconsin that the lieutenant colonel who was a father of the white victim fought for 10 years to put in place comes out of an incident that involved white officer shooting a white victim. so, part of, i think, where we can reach consensus is that we don't want any victim being shot under police-- by police under circumstances and that the kindest way to put it would be under questionable circumstances. one of the things i want to talk about before we run out of time, one of the questions is what does your book to offer to doctor jones and her husband are having lost their black son to police violence under circumstances that did not result in the prosecution for the officer and now she sits in her home in philadelphia wondering how this can happen to her son, which the book talks about 30 people and clean people. she was as clean and she could be your cursor was clean. guest: so, are we back to racialized in this topic again? so, you are saying there is some kind of police and did it people? that is a different issue. host: no. guest: then why does her race matter? i would that i would offer my heartfelt-- host: i'm talking about her cleanness. guest: okay, but race-- host: recent how dirty and clean go together. guest: absolutely not. that was just it. host: before we run out of time, so much of the book is dedicated to denying that race is playing a role in the criminal justice system and in policing, but you know the history of the united states. the united states was built on formal racialized law that fort hood have centuries helped african people in captivity and for another hundred people after that allowed state, local and federal governments to pass laws that allowed racial discrimination. i'm originally from the south, so i have lived through legalized racial discrimination. what which you think would be the legacy of 346 years of overtly supported by legal statute-- c2 there is an understandable legacy of mistrust. the role of the police in this nation, the horrible history of racism, segregation, the most grotesque violation of our fanning ideals was very strong. there is no question. of the police supported not just slavery, but they supported jim crow. they have engaged in brutal behavior in the south and the memory of that understandably takes a long time to fade and it makes any police shooting of a black male understandably and particularly fraught. that's absolutely true, but policing today's data driven. the revolution that began in new york city where the police were poring over crime data on a daily and hourly basis is colorblind. it looks only at where people are being victimized and that's where cops are going. it doesn't say-- and four years there was a rap against the cops as you know that they ignored crime and minority neighborhoods that was the manifestation of racism because they said that's just how those people behave and they put their resources in white neighborhoods. data, police data hotspot policing does not allow that to happen and the other thing that drives police deployment again is those heartfelt demands from people in the inner-city saying i can't go out into my lobby because they are our kids trespassing their. those people don't have doorman. they depend on the police-- host: i understand it's an emotional topic, but when you talk about data, so for as long as-- [inaudible] host: 30% pollen to the category we call black. now, when we took across racial categories within offenses, there has to be something that's the white and black and the few other categories, offenders or arrestees have in common even though they don't have racing, and. wouldn't we be more fruitful in sort of crime detection, which we know it doesn't detect much crime. but, would we be more fruitful in crime detecting the thing we can measure because we have never been able to measure to turn its-- deterrence, if we stop looking at different racial categories across the offending, which unfortunately your book argues there is no racism in the criminal justice system, but they do spend a lot of time saying that it's okay to think of black people as dangerous or potentially dangerous-- guest: delors, please. that's absolutely an unjustified statement. please, please, please, buy me one place in a book where i say that. i say repeatedly that there-- the majority of these people in these communities are law-abiding and need support. they are trying to do the right thing by their children. it has nothing to do with impunity black people as somehow all criminal, but if you cannot live by the statistics, then you as a criminologist i think are not serving your profession very well. the statistics are what they are. in new york city, again, we don't have-- this is not-- host: isn't that then projecting onto all blacks-- guest: no, it is not wise it not possible to say that there is vastly disproportionate race of criminal offending without saying that all blacks are criminals? that's a complete non sequitur. host: there is more to the identity of shooters than their race? guest: yes, and what predicts it is single-family homes. you can talk to social scientists and they find inevitably and president obama talked about this in his father's date-- excuse me, let me finish for once. and his 2008 father's day speech he actually did single out black fathers for not doing at the right thing and being responsible towards their children, so this is not-- yes, he did. if we were on us we will admit there are to be black fathers that are not supporting their children, but this is not exclusively-- you can look at the prison population and those men in there, overwhelmingly from single-parent homes the research that has been done on the consequences of it being raised by single mothers is not look at race it looks at the fact that children of all races that grow up without a father and above all in a community where males are not expected as a precondition to anything further to be responsible for their fathers, those children have a magnitude higher, about five times higher chance of becoming juvenile delinquents and ending up in prison as adults, so i would love to make that an issue and it lets stop talking about race and start talking about fathers because all kids need their fathers. host: and data shows that even why to don't have fathers and there are many of them as well. guest: yes. host: also doctor jones and the other single mothers who successfully raise their children to be law-abiding and go on to be contributors of society probably would take offense-- guest: well, then they don't know statistics work there are not many heroic single mothers who were doing the right thing. you were basically not doing any statistics unless it's to serve your purpose. when you look at the fact as obama said that kids growing up in single-parent families are five to nine times more likely to face negative social outcomes , does that negate the fact that of course there are plenty of single mothers who are beating the odds, but as a social scientists i would think you would live or die by data because that will show us trends of the problems we need to work on. host: it does, but i was a sociologist before i was a social scientist and when the things we say-- guest: lets say that about police officers then also. every single police officer. not look at the officers race. not look at the victim's race, but look at individual officers. host: that is the one place we can reach consensus because when we had police tactics that blanket to communities with various strategies, with known at least since 1972 that there is a small number of very active serious offenders who can be identified and who can be dealt with arguably without interfering with the liberty of -- guest: and police tactics are targeted at hotspots. that's with the nypd did. they pinpoint their people on corners where there are hotspots. host: there are people in those spots that don't engage in criminality. would you agree with the statement that police are required to perform their job in a humane way? guest: absolutely, not just humane, they should be polite as a basic matter of common courtesy and too often they develop rough demeanors. they are unapproachable and you cannot get an answer out of them work that is what training should be focused on, is how to maintain a courteous attitude towards the public and let's be honest that cops face very difficult situations. above all, i'm going to be honest in inner-city neighborhoods where there is probably a legacy of air mail of people trash at them, campers and whatnot off roofs, that's tough to do, but to maintain an open mind, but i've not talked-- not sam working for the good people in the community and they believe in those people. host: and went to ask the question, is it possible that the behavior of some individual cops are what's making the police job more dangerous? for example, if we look at two cases that are older or not the book, we have five officers involved in that bill incidents. one tired 31 times. if we look at the eric garner situation there are seven officers standing around and one is talking calmly to him before officer penn's jumps on his back and starts to show, which is contrary to the patrol guide and there's nothing the patrol guide to says you can choke a person. guest: officers need constant training in the use of force. the eric garner a rest his heart breaking to watch. that was a man understandably, there's something almost tragic or noble about his protest. host: sorry to interrupt you again. ..

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