these formal line along this wall to avoid chaos. one one more round of applause please. [applause]. [inaudible] [inaudible] >> c-span, created by america's cable television companies and brought to you as a public public service by your cable or satellite provider. >> next on book tvs afterwards program, manhattan institute institute sr. fellow, heather macdonald discusses policing in america. she is interviewed by delores jones-brown, law and police science professor at john jay college about her book, "the war on cops", how the attack on law and order makes everyone less safe. >> a good afternoon, how are you today. >> i'm great, thank you so much. >> i'm happy to have this opportunity to talk to you about your new book, "the war on cops". how the new a attack makes everyone less safe. we know each other, we've been on previous panels together, one of the first things i like to ask you, the discussion the book about whether or not the system and police in particular are racist, what is your definition of racism, you don't give one in the book but you talk a lot about racism and being racist. how should we take your definition of racism. >> guest: i think it is hostile treatment towards a person on the basis of his skin color. >> host: and a person who would be a racist would do what? >> guest: make judgments about somebody based on skin color alone or even as part of a other set of characteristics. what we hear from the black lives matter movement is that cops are racist, that they are in minority neighborhoods and oppressing people in those communities, presumably it would seem out of win or caprice. there is never any explanation as to why officers would be in those communities. so i am simply adopting a phrase that is often bandied about by black lives matter protesters. i go to to these protests and i see the signs that say racist killer cop, kkk cop. they're suggesting that cops are motivated by racial animus in the law-enforcement actions that they take. >> host: so you wrote a book, i think the title is something like cops are racist. that book was published in a time and there is an incident where for young men, three african-americans and one latino male were shot by two police officers and they shot at 11 times. in the guilty plea that they entered for having provided false information about who they were stopping on the turnpike, didn't those those officers admit they had in fact targeted black and latino males in that they have been told to do so by superiors? >> guest: that was part of the guilty plea, you are right. evidence that was more broad-based and statistical that the new jersey attorney general used to show disparities in stops did not take into account driving behavior. there was a study that was subsequently done by the same statistical organization that had contributed to the justice department in new jersey attorney general that looked at driving behavior and found that blacks on the new jersey turnpike were speeding at twice the rate of white drivers in the disparities that least overnighted miles per hour were even greater. it is is not clear that officers can even see the race of drivers that night. in fact, stop stunned by radar mirror the same disparities that are driven overwhelmingly by driving behavior. >> host: i'm a former prosecutor one of the things i love to do it child is to use the phrase a buy your own admissions when i had dependence on the by -- so should i understand you to say that even if these officers, canada and hogan admitted that they engaged in racial targeting on a highway and that their supervisors had advised them to do so, we should give less credence to that than a set of aggregate statistics? >> guest: i think the set of egg aggregated statistics goes to the overhead of the state troopers. if these guys were engaged in drug interdiction and let's say they were being told to go after jamaican posse and they had the dea keep very close track of who is doing the drug smuggling between, on the eastern corridor, so if if they're looking for a particular drug gang that is racially identified , to me it seems to me legitimate that would be one part of the ground for pulling someone over, but for average traffic stops i just do not think that is happening. >> host: you spend much of the book and a lot of your recent career talking about the effectiveness of cops in new york city and denying that it involves racism in terms of how it is practice. you are aware that a commander, and expect her, i think deputy inspector is caught on audiotape , it was introduced in the floyd trial that you write about extensively in the book, i'm saying that you have to stop the right people, male black between ages of 14 and 21. but he does not want to say anything only few have reasonable suspicion. he stops his description of the white people with male, black, ages, ages 14-21. isn't that another admission that at least some members of the new york city police department believe that all male blacks are potentially criminal and that they are targeting of such mail blacks is unwarranted? >> guest: i do not think that is a fair characterization of what he was caught on tape same. he had called in a police officer who is wired, who had had recently joined the lawsuit employed for the fact that he had done absolutely no proactive activity of the previous year. this is 11 of the officers on the way low-end of the bell curve and they're trying to get out of their car and investigate suspicious behavior. they put out a hypothetical and said if we have a robbery pattern involving young black males between the ages of 14 and 22, that is who you should be stopping. he was goaded into saying that, it was clear from this interaction that they're hoping to get him to say something in the floyd trial. this is not something he just set out of the blue on his own initiative. but even as he phrased it, i find nothing find nothing objectionable about that. he was given a hypothetical of a robbery pattern and to be honest, it is a hypothetical but sadly mirrors the crime situation in new york city. and that preys on minority victims in minority neighborhoods. when you look at who is committing robberies in new york, blacks are 23% of the population. they commit 70% of all robberies. whites by contrast are 34% of the population and they commit 4% of all robberies. so it is in those minority neighborhoods when you have elderly people getting stuck up. so when he came up with this pattern, it is one that his police officers here again and again, not from themselves but from the victims of robbery themselves. police officers hope against hope that they will for once get a description of a suspect in a violent street crime whether it is a drive-by shooting or robbery, that is white, but given the fact of how crime is distributed in cities today, that almost never happens. >> host: one definition of racism in the definition of classic racism you take the behavior of a few people from a particular group and you then project that behavior onto everyone in the group. for example we know since 1972 that in urban communities you think about philadelphia in the book that the greatest amount of serious crime is actually committed by a very small number of active criminals. so the notion notion that, and that pattern was held over time. so there's a very small number who are violent offenders. the nypd zone said to sticks indicate that 80 to 90% of all stops do not produce a lesser summons and that roughly i will take the year 2012, 8812, 88% of blacks there stop during that year were not found to engage in criminal behavior. if you are an innocent black person who is unfortunate enough to live in a high crime area, what you you make of those statistics from the police department? >> guest: first of all i have found it very easy to meet young black males who say they have never been stop. i spoke to a boy in the amount help section of the bronx who set i have never been stop because i'm a good boy. he goes to work, he goes to school, he does not hangout on the corners. in philadelphia as you mentioned you i read about a book about young crack dealers there and she devotes an entire chapter of who she calls the clean people who are exactly the ones you mentioned. they drink beer rather than smoke marijuana, they stay home playing video games, they're not hanging out in the streetlight. they have. they have had no interaction with a cop. i've also met people who say yes, i have been stop by the cop and i understand why that was happening. the cops are doing their job. there's no question that blackmails today face a match higher rate of getting stopped when their innocent than white males do today. that is a crime fact that the community pays because of the elevated rates of crime. i would take issue with your characterization of the stop data. it's true about 6% of all stops resulted an arrest and also -- 6% ended in a summit. the aclu, aclu, legal aid society drew the conclusion that every other stop that didn't was necessarily of a innocent person. that is just not the case. the open-air drug dealing are very carefully choreographed to make sure that officers do not have probable cause to make an arrest. there is a careful segmenting of who has the money, who has the drugs. the contraband is often kept in a neutral location. so somebody, they can be intervening in an open-air drug without the probable cause of making an arrest. so let's say there's been a pattern of car theft on a street and an officer see somebody walking along a line of cars trying door handles, there's no probable cause to make an arrest for that. but that may well avert another car theft in that neighborhood, so we do not know what number of stops were in fact intervening in criminal behavior but i am certain it is not a 0%. >> host: let's go back to the attack on the innocent numbers of high climber even though crime communities. you are familiar with the research that said in neighborhoods where blacks and latinos only make up 14% of the residential population, they make up 70% of the stops in those locations. so it was seen if you are in a high crime community or a low crime community so long as you're black and latino you stand a greater risk of being stopped under the practices that were challenging by the lawsuit. >> guest: so let me ask you dolores, what you think stop rates should look like? in new york city as i mentioned blacks are 23% of the population and commit 70% of all shootings. , -- of all robberies. as far shootings go fluctuates between 75% and 80%. when you add hispanic shootings to black shootings in new york city, you account for 98% of all shooting. that type of criminal behavior is going to manifest itself in other types of law breaking, low level lawbreaking. whites commit less than 2% of all shootings, though they are 34% of the population. given those crime disparities, do you think that stop rates should mirror population data, should whites be 34% of all stops and blacks be 23% of all stop's even though whites are virtually not present in violent street crime? >> host: you and i talked about this before, that i take the position that people are individuals and that anytime we group individuals together and make assumptions about the individuals in the entire group based on the behavior of a few that that is problematic. you have that your lawyer, i'm a lawyer, there's, there's actually a constitutional amendment that says that we shall not do that. that everyone should enjoy equal protection under the law whether they are criminal or noncriminal. so arguably that is one of the first issues in terms of looking at our go get data. but to criticisms that i would suggest people might be making about the book, it contains a lot of information and we'll have one hour to talk about it. >> guest: can i make one point though, i would love love to get your answer on this. for about two years as you recall the new york times is focusing on the 73rd precinct in brownsville, brooklyn. that had a heist operate. what they never can fade, let's compare brownsville to bay ridge, brooklyn which is several miles away. the stop right differential between brownsville in bay ridge is about 15 times greater. the per per capita rate of people in brownsville getting stopped, we have a 15 times greater chance of getting stopped and those living in bay ridge. it's true brownsville is predominantly black and bay ridge is predominantly white and asian. what is left out of that analysis is the per capita shooting rate in brownsville is 81 times higher than in bay ridge. now what that means is that every time, and this is again, it's not coming from the police. these are people who are reporting the shootings. it means every time there is a gain drive-by shooting, the police are going to be out there in high numbers making stops to try and let the rival gang no they are being observed. given that degree of shooting differential and the inevitable response of police in order to try to prevent another person being wounded or shot it will result in a higher rate of stops. again, if you go to the meetings in new york city, these are these weekly, data driven accountability meetings where local precinct commanders are held ruthlessly accountable for the crimes and their solutions forward in their precincts, they don't talk about race, they talk they talk about where people are being victimized. given these disparities in new york city of where people are being shot, the police are going to be doing part proactive policing and stops in those neighborhoods that will generate the data that shows these disparities that the aclu will then use against the nypd in the lawsuit. but they have no choice. >> host: i'm glad you used the word choice. is it your position that innocent blacks have no choice but to accept high rates of stops and in terms of the policing high rates of low-level enforcement in order to have public safety? >> guest: i think officers have an obligation to treat everybody they meet with courtesy and respect and if an innocent person is stopped and subjected to the humiliation and possibly terror of being stopped by the police, the police have to explain to him why he was stopped. ideally play the radio call back. that officer should not walk away from that interaction without making sure that person understands why they were stops and ideally has reached some sort of agreement. as far as the broken windows policing that you mention and these are the low level, quality of life public order offensive, every time i go to a police community meeting in the south bronx or central harlem, or central brooklyn, what i what i hear from the residents of those neighborhoods is that they want more policing, not less. they're not saying arrest the robbers, they are saying bring public order, they set you arrest the drug dealers and their back on the corner the next day. there are kids hanging out in my lobby smoking weed and dealing drugs, i am terrified to go down and pick up my mail. i spoke with a cancer amputee. >> guest: my point is police are getting the request from the members of the community themselves. >> host: but they also got the request and that's also how we got this in the book and who my leaving out, so those requests were from parents particularly in the bronx that said i sun can't go to the store and come back home without being stopped by the police. there are actually some media reports of people who lived in buildings being stopped in their pajamas on their way to the trashcan and asked for identification. so the notion that there are at least two sets of voices, including voices of police officers, it's often not talked about that there were former and current police officers who testified against the practice of stop and frisk. why do do you think that is not often mentioned? >> i think the officers that they got were disgruntled officers. they was were inevitably people who were under observation for absolutely doing basically nothing on the job to try to protect the members of the community in which they worked. given the rhetoric around stop, question, frisk, i would've thought that the aclu and the new york civil liberties union would have been able to find hundreds of completely clean people that had been stopped for no reason at all. the plaintiff which they whittled down and i think they finally got 11 main plaintiffs in that lawsuit have massive criminal histories. they recently, one of them wb he went by in the lawsuit last year was federally indicted for gang conspiracy for stomping a boy to death in the bronx several years ago. he was one of the plaintiffs in this suit who is complaining about being stopped. i was cement, and he was well known to the people in that precinct. when they saw that he was the main plaintiff they cannot believe their eyes. there is a reason why he was stopped, because he's involved in gang activity. >> but to be fair we had a police commissioner and corrections commissioner, all one person who ended up federally indicted as well and spent time in prison and he came out of prison being able to talk more concretely about the hollows of incarceration in the last three chapters of your book talk more about incarceration and that sort of thing than it does about "the war on cops". why do you include those last few chapters, they seem to have very little to do with "the war on cops" topic that the book is titled with. >> guest: my point is the black lives matter movement has a much broader focus and we are living through a moment where there is hardly a single law-enforcement practice that is not under attack for having a disparate impact on blacks. certainly we live live in a narrative now of mass incarceration. that is part of this large-scale attack on the legitimacy of the criminal justice system. the same charges are brought to bear against incarceration practices as they are brought to bear against discretionary proactive policing. same with a disparate impact arguments over a representation of blacks in prison is due to racism, sort of unspecified somewhere along the line whether it is police officers, juries, prosecutors or judges. i see them as quite possibly the same narrative. >> host: what you said your critics would say is a middle-class white woman who has a very strong education background, you went to cambridge, is there you majored in english and you had a law degree. why would it be appropriate for you to, the marie from the back jacket of the bucket set that says mcdonald gives voice to the many residents of high crime neighborhoods the one proactive policing. she warns that race-based attacks on the criminal justice system from the white onto are eroding the authority of law and putting lives at risk. so the statistics statistics suggest you would be the one least victimized by the crime, that you would be the one least likely to have a nonconsensual contact with a police officer. so why would it be appropriate for you to take on this role like as we already discussed it talks about one side of the issue of people who want proactive policing and it doesn't talk enough about those who say i have been the victim of proactive policing. how do you respond to the critics on that. >> personally don't think race has anything to do with it. i think it's it's a very dangerous path to start down that you can only. >> host: you say which is which? >> guest: it is my right to try to describe what i see happening in high crime areas as a result of this large-scale delegitimization of law enforcement. i do not feel like i am less represented by president barack obama because he is black or that my congressman may be black therefore he doesn't speak for me. i assume that every individual is trying as you say to address the facts as he sees them. i do not think skin color credential ices or deacon group -- i wonder if you would raise the same complaints about a white criminologist who also had looked at this and took the exact opposite position. it doesn't matter, you don't have to be of any particular race to attend these meetings where you hear people begging for police protection. bernard -- >> host: i want to go back to the other part of that question which is, you spend a great deal of the book critiquing social science research. but there is not anything in your occasional background that suggest that you have had training in social science research. so clearly one of the critiques could be well how can a non- social scientist critique social science research? >> guest: i would hope that social science research is transparent enough that it doesn't require a phd in statistics, but i think i more often invokes social science research to help with my arguments. they claim for example that the criminal justice system and incarceration rate demonstrate systemic bias in the criminal justice system, criminologists have tried to show that for decades and people like albert blunt steam have been forced to conclude that if anything what blumstein found was that blacks are imprisoned less for homicide than the rights of homicide commission would predict, even michael -- was forced to conclude that it was blacks rate of criminal offending that explains their high representation in prison. so i'm happy to look at social science research but so far it has not been able to validate the mass incarceration and. >> host: and has not been able to validate the efficacy of brooklyn's pleasing either. i'm sure you're familiar with david harris. he is a law professor out of pittsburgh. he wrote a book book called failed evidence. he asked police why don't they use more if you look at any set us as to sticks you can look at something that contradicts the other when you look at the topic of white crime it's almost totally ignored. the subheading subheading in your world cop had a new attack on law and order makes everyone makes everyone less safe. and it's 14 volume report they had a chapter or volume on lawlessness and law-enforcement micturition was looking at law-enforcement behavior in relation to prohibition. during the prohibition era, the drive-by shooters were white. they were white and mostly middle-age. they're fighting over what kind of territory, to boot leg. so we know that this notion of drive-by is not as you pointed out before a single race phenomenon, because we saw the valentine's day massacre, and all kinds of really interesting shooting in public places when the offenders were white. do you know how they resolve that issue when the drive-by shooters? >> host: i don't know. >> host: it was the kind of the behavior that producing this kind of violence. in four mostly white states, the united united states, possession of marijuana or recreational purposes has been legalized. we in new york city disproportionately arrest young black males for possession of marijuana while statistics suggest that marijuana use in the city probably is predominantly white. given those differences, why is it that you spent so much time in the book focusing in on black crime and essentially denying that there is any racism. >> guest: i'm interested in violent crimes. i care about black lives in you now have blacks die nationally at six times the rate of whites and hispanics combined. that's a problem. the reason that is the case is that blacks commit homicides at eight times the rate of whites and hispanics. we looked at young male use of homicide and they found that young black males between the ages of 14 and 17 commit gun homicide at the rate of ten times the amount. if you want to save lives, the lives that are being lost are greatly disproportionate rates are black in this country. we have talked about the absolute numbers before, over 6000 blacks have killed every year. >> host: was the source of that. >> guest: that's from the fbi. let me just at that is more than white and hispanic, side deaths combined. so blacks are 13% of the population, so if you want to save black lives, that's where to look. and there may have been different patterns of crimes in the past but what we have now is the police are dealing with what's right before them in the street. >> host: so regarding the article that including the word served which is -- surgeon crime. we talk about really low crime numbers, they increase by one if it's a baseline of one, it's a 50% increase. increase. so when you talk about these large percentages, sometimes you're only talking about really small numbers. for example in the book they use the word surge. but they do not talk about the word that in 22 states the homicide gun rights for black men actually went down. a 248% increase in idaho for young man, not black men engaged in gun homicides. certainly would represent to a search. there is a question of, of, why is it that we spend so much time and you and i talked about this. if if we spent more time talking about crime in general from the perspective that involves variables that can be changed, nobody can change the race but we can can change the other contributors to nonviolent crime. we might be able to and i want to talk specifically, get were talking about white crime because it is something we don't spend enough time talking about. you specifically talk about black crime. but if we look at the names like dylan ruth and james home and adam lanza and eric harris and dylan, you're talking about 54 that people, 92 injured people including 20 children ages six or seven in just four incidents. don't we want to be concerned and certainly there's a lot of immediate attention to these deaths. how can the kinds of policing tactics described in the book help prevent those kind of incidents. >> there completely different incidents i think. frankly if i were black i would be offended by the white hysteria over newton shootings. because, the number of white kids that were killed, you get that tally and maybe half a year easily of blacks through drive-by shootings at the media, despite their absolute commitment to the black lives matter narrative, they basically ignore. in cleveland in september of 2015, there were three children under the age of five who were killed and drive-by shootings. we don't know their names, there was not a massive uproar about that. the police police chief of cleveland who happens to be black was in tears, he says why is everybody protesting the cop when they don't protest when we kill each other. there is a girl, 9-year-old girl in ferguson missouri who is killed on her bed study and in august of 2015. >> host: i have also heard the statement that people do not protest the lives or deaths of black people. there are at least 20 organizations organizations and i think at least ten in new york city that actually do, their community grassroots organizations of mothers it gets murder, their other organizations that do in fact protest the deaths of black or white people at the hands of similar race because statistics indicate that if you're going to get killed, more likely you're going to be killed by someone who knows you, who may who may be intimate you and the same is true. so one of the things you talk about hard facts, one of the things we do not want to do, you were use the word myths you don't want to do anything to protest the individual loss of life at the hands of other individuals who are not police. they're pushing against gun violence. >> so you are absolutely right. and maybe it's the media's fault for not paying attention and then there is a girl beaten to death there was a girl beaten to death in coney island and there was a local protesting wide we keep doing this. you're absolutely right. spee1 i want to look at statistics and unfortunately the criminal justice statistics when the federal authority went through their issues, but the last set of data they had on homicide between 2011 and that was desegregated by race. so for those who were both over and under age 18, 4000 people who were white were arrested for homicide. 4149 people who were black were arrested for homicide. so you would agree those numbers are very close as opposed to be very far apart. the statistic would suggest that the overwhelming percentage of victims of white homicide arrestees were also white and that the overwhelming number that you pointed out victims of the black well estes were black. why is it that we do not see a discussion of white crime in your book? we'd all be concerned about the white victims by the perpetrator will be not. >> guest: i would be happy to d racialized this discussion. i'm not the one who started this. this is a product of decades of race-based attacks on police officers claiming that they are on some sort of racist vendetta against blacks and the end result that we see with black disproportionate present is due to criminal justice racism. that is a very dangerous lie that increases the hostility that officers are getting in the street. it is not me who has made this a racial discussion. it is at decades of activist, there are enablers, but let's look at those absolute numbers. the issue again is what is the per capita rate. >> host: every time we talk. we talk about race in per capita and percentages. we d individualized behavior. so one. so one of the things your book talks about is the personal responsibility and parental responsibility. i want to segue a little bit here to make a point. your book i read from cover to cover, the other book i read most closely cover to cover to your book was donahue sukkot's book, book, between the world to me. between and his book they talk about prince jones. a medical dr., they were married there is a long segment of the book that talks about the solution of father spoke we don't talk about fathers without jobs, they're not necessarily the best fathers, fathers who may have health or drug addiction problems may not be the best fathers. it may not be the best thing for children to keep it together because we have all kinds of data to suggest when children view violence in the home that it increases the likelihood that they themselves will be violent. so there's an ocean that the panacea of a father may not be the case. but jones and the husband were middle-class, hard-working people. their son went to religious school was pursuing his degree at harvard university. he ended up dead at the hands of a police officer who happened to be black because that's one of the issues, is it just a problem when white police officers, it is a police issue arguably because we do not want any color police shooting innocent and unarmed people who you include a lot of stories about people who are aggressive. but we know there's all kinds of footage of police officers attacking, meals and emails of color who are not aggressive. so you seen the footage of the officer beating the 51-year-old homeless woman homeless woman on the side of the road. you may have seen the footage of the houston police department situation with a burglar 15 years old and then sat upon by the police officers including kicking him in the groin. so i'm assuming that police misconduct should be dealt with rigorously. you don't necessarily get the definition after misconduct. when people see this behavior, should it matter what race they are to say this is something that needs to be addressed and done away with? >> guest: i take it your say we should not take interest and i'm agreeing with you. because that is what the discourses that i'm rebutting. if were going going to talk about absolute numbers and you think that race is not important in i talk about the category in the washington post database of unarmed victims of the police. in 2015 there were 36 black males so-called unarmed victims of police shooting 31 so-called unarmed white male victims of police shootings. so let's stop at this point then doing any kind of race shows, those are very close numbers. that would suggest that if your going to just look at the absolute numbers that we do not have a problem. then let's look at the individual cases. i dug dug into the facts behind that database and what i found was that those 36 black males, two of them that were accidental shootings, race cannot possibly have played a role played a role even though i don't think race played a role in any of them. but to cut those out, several of those people were trying to grab the officer's gun or otherwise beating him with his equipment so violently to put that officer in legitimate danger. there was was a white guy coming at officer so my point is, let's just you don't think that those white guys that are also shot. >> host: in fact your book talks about the decision that the governor made to sign an executive order to put a special prosecutor in charge of police shooting cases are violence cases. we know people are being choked and other kinds of things. the 2014 legislation out of wisconsin that the lieutenant colonel who is the father of the white victim fought for ten years to put in place, he comes out of an incident that involves white officer shooting a white victim. so part of, i think where we can reach consensus is that we do not want any victim being shot under police by police under circumstances. the kindest way to put it is under questionable circumstances. one of the things i want to talk about before we run out of time, one of the questions was what is your book have to offer to doctor jones and her husband for having lost their black son to police violence, under circumstances that do not result in a prosecution for the officer? now she sits in her home in philadelphia wondering how this could happen to her son which the book talks about dirty people including people, she was as clean as she could be. her son was clean. >> guest: sore back to racializing the topic again. so you're saying there is some kind of police vendetta against black people and that is a different issue. so why does her race matter. i would offer my heartfelt. >> host: i was talking about her clean lists when i questioned you. >> guest: will okay. >> host: race and dirty go together? >> guest: absolutely not. >> host: so much of the book is dedicated to denying that race is playing a role in policing. you know the history of the united states, the united states was built on former racialized laws that for two and half centuries held african people in captivity and then for another hundred years after that allowed state, local, and federal government to at tack laws and allow for racial discrimination. i'm from the south so i live through legalize racial discrimination. what you think would be the legacy of 346 years of overtly supported but by legal statute. >> guest: there is an understandable legacy of mistrust. the role of the police in this nation deplorable history of racism, segregation, the most grotesque violation of our founding ideals was very strong, there's no question. please supported not just slavery but they supported other things they have engaged in brutal behavior in the south and the memory of that, understandably takes a long time to fade. it makes any police shooting of a black male understandably and particularly fraud. that is absolutely true. but policing today is data driven. the revolution that began in new york city where the police would pour over crime data on it daily and then hourly basis is colorblind. it looks looks only at where people are being victimized and that is where cops are going. it does not say, and for years the wrap against the cop as he knows that they ignored crime and minority neighborhoods. that was amanda's best station of racism. they said that is just how those people behave. they put their resources and white neighborhood. police data, hotspot policing does not allow that to happen. the other thing that drives please deployment is again those heartfelt demands from people in inner-city saying i cannot go out into my lobby because their kids trespassing there. that is different. those those people do not have dormant. they depend on. [inaudible] >> host: i understand it's very emotional. but when when we talk about data for as long as we collects crime statistics 70% of arrestees every year are right where they fall in the category we call white and in 30% fall into the category would call black. when we look across racial categories there has to be something that the white and black and a few other categories, offenders or arrestees had in common even though they do not have racing comment. wouldn't we be more fruitful in sort of crime detection which we know they did a horrible job of, but it does not detect very much crime. wouldn't it be more fruitful in detection, the thing that we can measure comes the only thing we have not been able to measure is if we stop looking at different racial categories and start looking across the offending which unfortunately a book argues racism in the criminal justice system but it expends a lot of time saying that it is okay to think of black people as dangerous. >> guest: that is an absolutely unjustified statement. please find me one place in that book where i state that. i say repeatedly that there are, the majority of people in these communities are law-abiding, they need support, they're trying to do the right thing by their children, it has nothing to do with impugning black people and all criminal. but if if you cannot live by the statistics then you as a criminologist i think are not serving your profession very well. the statistics are what they are. new york city, again 98% of shootings. >> host: isn't that then projecting onto all blacks. >> guest: it is not. wise and not possible to say that there is a vastly disproportionate rates of criminal without saying that all blacks are criminals. that is -- >> guest: let me ask. >> host: let me assist question. there's more to the identifiers of the race. >> guest: you can talk to social scientists, they they find inevitably a president obama talked about it his 2008 father's day speech, day speech, he actually did single out black fathers for not doing the right thing and being responsible toward their children. but -- he said if we are honest we will admit that there too many black fathers that are not supporting their children. none on we can look at the prison population and those men in there, overwhelmingly from single-parent homes. the research that has been done on the consequences of being raised by single mothers is not look at race, it looks at the fact that children of all races, they grow grow up without a father and above all in a community where males are not expected as a precondition to anything further to be responsible for their fathers. those children have magnitudes higher about five times higher chance of becoming juvenile delinquents and ending up in prison as an adult. so i would love to make that an issue and let's stop talking about race and start talking about fathers because all kids need their fathers. >> host: and the data show that even whites who do not have fathers and their many of them as well have issues. also doctor jones and the other single mothers who successfully raise their children to be law-abiding probably would take offense. >> guest: then they don't know statistics. there are not many heroic single mothers who are doing the right thing. you could basically not look at any statistics less you serve your purpose. what as obama said kids growing up in single-parent families are five - nine times more likely to face very negative social outcomes. does that negate the fact that of course there are plenty of single mothers were beating the odds. as a social scientist i would think you deliver to buy data. that is going to show his trance and the the problems that we need to work on. >> host: it does, but because i was a sociologist before isis social scientist, one of the things we say is -- [inaudible] >> guest: were not quite to look at the officers raise, were not to look at the victims race were going to look at individuals. >> host: that is one place that we can reach consensus because when we have police tactics that blanket communities with various strategies, wouldn't we we know at least since 1972 that there is a very small number of very active, serious offenders who can be identified and who can be dealt with arguably without interfering with the liberty -- >> guest: that's what the nypd did they pinpoint. [inaudible] >> host: but people in those spirits are not engaged in criminology. we are actually out of time. >> guest: would you agree with the statement that police are required to deal their job in a humane way. >> guest: absolutely. not just humane, they should be polite as a basic a basic manner of common courtesy. too often they develop roughed demeanors. they're unapproachable and you cannot get an answer out of them. that is that is what training should be focused on is how to maintain a courteous attitude towards the public. let's be honest, the cop face very difficult situations, above all i'm going to be honest in inner-city neighborhoods where there's people throwing trash at them off roofs, that is tough to do, but to maintain, and not talk to an officer who is said i'm working for the good people in the community and they believe in those people. >> host: before we run out of time, is it possible the behavior some individual tops are what is making the police john were dangerous. for example, if we look at cases that are older not in the book we have five officers involved in the incident, one fires 31 times, if we look at another situation there seven officers standing around one is talking calmly to him before the officer jumps on his back and starts to choke him which is contrary to the patrol guy. there's nothing the patrol guy says you can choke a person if they resist. >> guest: officers the constant training in the use of force. that arrest is heartbreaking to watch. there is something almost tragic about the protests. >> host: we are about to run out of time, a chicago youth asked if he hated the police and he said i apsley do not hate the place. i need i need the police. he said but, i don't know if i called the police for help which officers going to show up, the one who's going to help me or the one that is going to hurt me. what would you be your takeaway message. how can we ensure that if he calls for help that we can get the officer that will help him. >> guest: we need to make sure that the commanders are paying close attention to officer behavior. the rate a plea shootings in chicago is very low compared to the rate of deaths by criminal homicide are. those bad apples have to be removed but thereby no mean representative of the tire police force. unfortunately please have lethal weapons with them. they make mistakes unlike people in other professions like journalists or politicians, the consequences are dire. they're trying to do the right thing and save as many lives as possible. that includes minority lives. >> host: i want to thank you so much for this time that you have taken. i think we both can agree that this is an issue that has been contentious in the past. it will continue to be contentious in the future and that one day we can talk about common inhumanity, the good that the police do that we can spend more time focusing on the majority of all people in the united states who are actually law-abiding citizens right. i think that's one thing we can agree on. thank you so much. >> . . >> >> we have learned to raise