Transcripts For CSPAN Key Capitol Hill Hearings 20141009

The government has really tried to make the systems as reliable as possible. People have expect haitians towards the government provide different services, and the online vote is natural for us. Had several expert teams come to a study and assess that. Geeks, the online voting, it is open. I have no idea what to do with that. That they can join everything. I basic question is about the trust. If we do have the trust towards governments, and we put that into the context of the united istes, any kind of system inherently not trusted i. Is there any possibility that also here this Technical Solutions could have more transparency . Quickly will pick you point as as we eve all. The internet has some core, not trusted aspects to it. There is a distrust of our government in the United States. There has been a combination of both parts, trust in both areas. It sounds like you have that in estonia. You have much more you have some foundational pieces that are solving the problems. Like your national id card. That provides an identity that we dont have here in the United States. We need to get some of these Building Blocks in place. Move security down below the operating systems so that we can solve the problem with a trusted platform. That would take years for those class those platforms to be out throughout the home and consumer markets. Plex i was recently in particular. Some of the smaller countries think that there at a this advantage. Discerning that shown that it will allow you to be much more agile, much more responsive to the numerous passion of her technologies that come out. Plex it is one election jurisdiction, not 7000. I like to say that trust, for prosperity. To the extent that these systems its hard to compare cocacola to an increase, this , the valid,ct thing ,ou know, the data structure that is an extremely important part. For verification aspect. Next tesla had one of their cars there. That is a different relationship between manufacturers. You. Let me congratulate ask the panel. The issue that strikes me is the insecure and for structure, hardware and software, we can over to rely upon it. We have a convergence of activities. They are trying to look at International Trade and what we do. It is virtually the same type of concerns expressed to. National Security Council staff is meeting up on transportation safety, administration. A vehicle to vehicle proposals, because you know him to because security is not filled in. This could play a useful role in calling out for a heavy investment, internationally possibly, specifically in the United States is problem, to help us, to give a little plug to intel. Make the investment across the board that speeds the softwareion of safe systems. Without fact, none of the systems are trustworthy. We will not be able to put a layer on top that will ever get away from the invented threat that reads the key to your encryption. It is an impossible task. Mckenzie put out in june history recommendation. It is making its way around courtrooms. We are the thinking about endorsing it. Thank you. First, i think that government and to help speed this along, the trustworthiness. It has been a key question here. Are there other things that to helpnts can be doing , to shortenis place this 30 years to 40 years. . Example, the gentlemen raise the question of the National Transportation security , there are proposals for vehicle to vehicle communication. You are hearing too far off the road, and there is a radio broadcast that says, hey, man, you are running opera. You are running off the road. People care about the privacy of their location. That if it ising done in the open, then people we are seeing nonprofits with heats on staff. People like can say, i dont think you need a thin number two through this. Number to do this. It is starting to happen in the hacker community. They have developed this effort called i am the calvary. These are efforts the hacker that wey is saying often break stuff, but we have to step up. Tore is no calvary coming save us. We have a responsibility to help save the world, so to speak. It is berry ambitious. I think you will see a lot of wonderful things. To build things, while we break things. I think the government is doing some things, with respect to the National Institute for standards and technology. Working onrding voting technology. They have done Research Reports what thehelp on pack issues are. Ways forribed that in anyone can reagan understand. Thathave written reports are geared towards someone who works in an election office. As of yet, we have not developed standards for an internet Voting System. We are a little ways from that. There are some nongovernmental efforts. What specifications might be needed. That is a little ways off. I think what joe said something that is important, getting all the stakeholders the opportunity to provide input. That is why i appreciate Something Like cyber security. One thing that struck me in the conversations that i have to over the past week was have a machine involved in voting, or technology involved in voting, there is a certification process. Further,s us even because when you want to update it for security reasons, you might have to recertify it. It is one of those things what we can do to help security a long might the ways to speed that process up so that we can get the more secure technologies. You can tell at the backend if it worked right during the election to help you a limit eliminate some of those certifications. Torequires the ability audit. On thes not focusing trust of the government. Is to address the critics that things are happening in the proper way. We are talking about specific hardware. It should be a combination of things. We will make the security more difficult to happen. In case this protection fails, it is possible that this happens. It should be a combination of both. Since maybe there are people who trust the computer or they have authorityfied by an they want to jack any time during the voting process. We need to combine both things. The certification will and sure will in short that security practice has been taken into account when this computer has been developed. Responsibility is to the voting process. We are going to do ron, and it will come over to this site. Thank you. Network security analyst with the Carnegie Mellon university. Knowledge,mpressive it may make me change my mind about congress. [laughter] i am a new england are, originally. You stole my thunder a little bit, jo. The difference between trust and trustworthiness. The government to be what is trustworthy, but the systems to be trustworthy. Just yesterday at a secured conference here in washington, d. C. , general alexander, the head of nsa, said the current architecture of the internet is indefensible. What we need for trustworthiness is, number one, not mathematical proofs that ballots can be verified. Is transparent systems that all voters can understand. The main way we know to do that is with durable paper records. They have the additional benefit the voters intent to be reexamined and provide meaningful recounts and audits. That is my question. Isnt the trustworthiness in the systems what matters . The supervised voting, which is an insurmountable problem. I think you are right on the transparency and what voters can understand. I would say you are the point technology, interacting with voters all the time. How is that trustworthiness in the system . Do they come out of it and feel that it was a great experience . It is more or less what i said before. The majority of voter trust is with the system. Who do not trust the systems. People need to say that it does not matter. It is important that the system can be audited. Aboutare talking unsupervised voting, it can work. When we are talking about remote voting, which would be the maybeon, for instance, the voter can print the paper at home, but what will happen with this paper. Is it enough or not . It is an important part of using to understand what is happening inside the voting process, when we are using only a computer. Some of the phrases we talked , for thoseer involved in security, we see that people have a ton of confidence in the internet. If they only knew what we knew. I will throw another blog in your ear. This. That was put forth, a good friend of ours, a standard. Ky guy they have a the recalled software independence. An undetectable change in the outcome. Is that youdo that do have some sort of durable, physical media that the voter can verify and recount later. That if youing dont have something to audit, recount, independent from the software, you may be in a world of hurt. On the notion of statistical recount, wrist limiting audits. The whole point being if you compare a subset of the ballots with the data structures, and you dont find enough errors that disagree speaking that would show you that the outcome would change if you actually recounted it, then you dont have to do a recount. You know there is no error that would have been possible. Californians change their law recently you can do the traditional way of certifying the machine on the front or you. An skip all that you can do one of these audits that show that no one else would have won. The trick is what happens if you find errors. Then you have a recount. We know this guy. Sri international. The point of internet voting is to make it easier for voters to cast their votes in a way that gets counted accurately. The next generation is the cryptographic Voting Systems. Two recent studies that have come out that cost some concern. That voters could not figure out how to do the verification with the three of the most commonly used systems. It was too complicated for them to understand how. In another study, which is about to be released, even if they can figure out how, they are not motivated. They do not understand why. Is, how do we get to systems that are have the desired capability, but also offer the voter what they need. Another piece of this is the castn of being able to voters do not understand why they should want to use the technology. If the voters dont understand how do we, it get to the cyberhuman parts of the voting issue. . I will be really clicked. Quick. Ll be really describe some of these cryptographic ideas in normal i can teach you the high level notion of what that is we need to be able to do things like that that dont cover only little components, but talk about the role of the technology in accomplishing the integrity we need. They want to go in and make ,heir decision, push the button and they are done. The vote is counted. That is the extent. That is the challenge we have to get over. That weto make sure have means that allow for a system that helps them do that in a versatile way. In this project, the voters verify that their selections have been made. Of the problems that we have in this project is how to balance the verifier to ability the verifiability and the usability. Most people dont care about this. This is for the people who do not trust the system. How can weis, so thate this in a way the system can distinguish between somebody who is going to who makes somebody any kind of trick. So, the problem is how can we , butde this as an option does not jeopardize the voting process for the voters. At the same time, to make verification efficient. We put this as on option in some cases. They that is not codes are arty sent by the voters. Happens in norway voters check their return codes. It has not been based on a real study. It was based on a problem they had when they were trying to print some voting cards. The people that called made a stipulation that means that 70 of the people who received wrong voting cards detect the error. The more data we have for the studies, the better. The norwegian system has not been studied here in the United States. 2011, andstem since also it has been shown in different conferences. That it is is important to design a verification process that is easy for the voters. It is also important that the critics understand. If the voters understand, it is fine for them. Is that thet part system can make a distinguishing decision. The voters do not always care what kind of Voting System they will face. What is more compelling to them is who they want to vote for an this election is important. Once they get there, i think it is the responsibility of the stakeholders to care about elections. We need to make sure that it is available, function, and that it will work. You said something that caught you hear about all these breaches. Where the sometimes idea of sending a something as votes over the internet how did that get to be a good idea . We have this Natural Inclination and can do spirit. We have come to admire when people make light of challenges and obstacles or minimize them. They are lesse if daunting, we can do this. We can overcome it. We can apply ourselves. I think that is one of the voting in theis country today. The unfortunate part of it is if there are shades of bad, it is the worst of the worst. The ballot is being sent in an unencrypted email attachment to election offices. I told somebody about this one time. Somebody who was doing Security Consulting for large firms. His eyes got large and he wanted to cover his ears and not hear what i was saying. It is true. I think there is a lot of bridging that needs to happen for people to understand what the key challenges are, what we need, and work on those kinds of research problems. I think it is they can do front your spirit of rhode island that is carrying us through. [laughter] final round of comments here. Joe said it would take 30 years to 40 years. That is kind of a long time. The Digital Natives using this now will be in their 40s or 50s. That means i will be in my young 60s. [laughter] that is a long way. I am curious if the other panelist agreed with that timeframe. Maybe, if there is one kind of thing that we can do, that one thing, what would that be . That may be a little long because of the whole process on how Fast Technology is advancing, but there does need to be an effort, a focused effort, on trying to deal with the problems today. We have to do a better job. Someone mentioned earlier that identity is a big one. Reasonable amount of things that you can do to provide a more secure environment, no youre talking with. You still have those underlying that the devices to be secure. I dont think it would take white that long. If we want to really push this, we need to look at looking at the concerted effort to design a National Environment that standardsbased, thats going to be able to scale. We are solving a rock local issue, find food we can do that without a lot of work in 30 years or 40 years. If we are solving a national issue, we have a real problems that need to be addressed, real design considerations. We need to discern whether or not we are going to do this on top of a trusted or on trusted environment. Those decisions need to be made. Intel we can get to a national focus, we were not solve the problem. This estimateith of 30 years or 40 years . Whof you talk to folks evaluate these kinds of , protocol stacks for the next Generation Internet what might replace what we have now their most optimistic projection to have a coherent internet is 40 years. This is something that no one knows anything about. Right now, you have folks doing adversarial routing attacks. Suddenly a route is rerouted for an hour. Hstan what the heck. There are things like that i dont think you can solve until we have a fully deployed piecemeal path to the internet. I am going to shout out to missouri. We are also a show me people. I think we need to ask what is the floor beneath which we are. Ot willing to sink systemswe owe ourselves that do produce the evidence you to know that was the correct outcome. I think joe is on the money with the timeframe. That is my take. I dont think we need to wait 30 or 40 years. Risk in a way that is acceptable. Ultimately there are people thinking about how to use technology in the elections. Risks are evolving. We have different parties like my company. To see if they are acceptable to use for an election only for certain groups. We need to move. We cannot wait. If we wait we will find other risks in the future. I think we have the technology for introducing internet voting. Wewe want to limit the risk can think about using certain people. Also present. I think it is not the solution. Some things we might be able to do to shorten that is to let these elections, part where we can get our heads around this and figure out how to use it. We can lay the sidewalks but we really wont know how people want to use this technology. Howoncern is we can imagine long it is going to take to solve these problems. We are on this slope. Unfortunately the attackers are on this slope. My concern is that hackers might get much better than the defenders. Mcafee has been trying to get that. Gainswant to unlock these , we have got to start getting security right. To us that is the important message. It is not just talking about the downside and the risk but also the benefits we can unlock if we get this right. I want to thank mcafee and my panelists. Paul and robbie, who are doing our tweets. The volunteers are interns. , National Cyber Security Awareness month will be here to talk about updates, so we will have tom cornman from the House Committee on intelligence. Risk. L talk about ie fifth of november am sorry. On the fourth of november we will have an event on nato talking about the new cyber strategy. That is going to be with the assistant secretarygeneral, so the top nato official probably the fourth ofon november. Keep your eyes open for the next taper we are doing with mcafee. Next paper we are doing with mcafee. One of these places if we dont get security right we are not going to be able to unlock the amazing potential we can find. Hank you to our panelists thank you for being here and making us smart on the issue. Thank you for being here. [applause] coming up, campaign debates between minnesotas senate handed eighth and the candidates for governor of pennsylvania. Then an update on the ebola virus. Next washington baum on, diane nissen military strikes against iraq and syria. How Media Coverage on gary hart and his extramarital affair changed political reporting. Also your calls and comments on National Security issues. Life beginning at 7 a. M. Eastern on cspan. Our campaign 2014 coverage continues with a week full of ebate. Live coverage between the u. S. Democrat and the former republican bobby schilling. Later, live coverage of the illinois governors debate with rauner. N and bruce then the wisconsin debate between scott walker and democrat mary burke. Saturday night, live coverage of the Iowa Senate Debate with ernst. Raley and joni the michigan governors debate between rick snyder and democrat mark schauer. More than one hundred debate for the control of congress. Al franken is up for election against Mike Mcfadden. A recent poll has senator franken leading by eight percentage points. The candidates held their first debate in duluth, minnesota. This is an hour. The Election Year is in full swing. We are pleased to carry the debate. Next is the u. S. Senate debate between al franken and mike defatted. Mike will begin mcfadden. We will begin with senator franken. I would like to thank the tribune and the chamber for hosting this debate. Northeast minnesota to get on the chin and the Great Recession, but you are fighters, and duluth is earning back strong. Coming back strong. I have done everything i can to be a partner in the process. We have got to make sure ecovery reaches everyone. I have worked across party lines to pass a bill to make sure American Steel is used in federal water project. To secure the funding used in the dredging of lake superior. I successfully fought to get millions for harbor improve. Theught to make sure fighter wing became an active if you continue to be at the center of the aviation sector. I have seen aar partner with lakes. College to train new mechanics to service the jetliners at the airport. We have the skills gap in the country. 3 million plus jobs the businesses cannot fill because they cannot find workers with i took thiseld. Model of community and technical colleges working to train guild skilled workers and made that a focus of congresss First Successful reform of the workforce training system. Now more americans will have the opportunity to train for these , good paying middle class jobs that will make our economy stronger. It has been an honor working with and for the great people of minnesota and the United States senate. We have a lot of work to make sure our country works for all minnesotans. I look forward to this debate to build on what we have achieved so far. Thank you for the invitation. I want to thank the audience. I appreciate you being here. Frankenthank senator for your service. To recognize franny. The two of you are celebrating your wedding anniversary. I would like to congratulate you on 39 years. You can use it again. I am running for u. S. Senate because we can do better. We have to do better. I would like to describe myself as just a dad. My wife and i have been married 26 years, and we have been blessed. And i are so concerned about what we are handing off to our children, 17 and a half trillion dollars of debt. Now were asking them to pay for our Health Care System with a system that doesnt work and needs to be fixed, and i will do that. We also have an overzealous Regulatory Agency that has been an enemy of mining and farming. I am running against al franken, who has voted with president obama 90 of the time. I hear that people do not event ishe press leading us in the right direction. It would be food, gasoline,. Nergy we are the greatest country in the world. I know how to get us on the road to growth and prosperity. I have a plan. Y plan is the three es energy and mining. Education and effective government. We have nine or 10 questions. I want to ask about the negative opponentse of your have said. You side with corporations and hide your money offshore. How do you respond to critics who say you are wrong . I am proud of my business career. I worked very hard. My dad grew up on a dairy farm. My dad was able to go to college because my uncle john paid for it. I have been able to participate in the american dream. I will not apologize for it. I am disappointed in al franken to run negative ads. Every News Organization has come forward and said they are false. Headquarteredy here that pays income taxes in the United States. We can do so much better. I am so tired of holiday excess usual. I entered the private sector. I believe the single biggest classis we created this of politicians. I believe senator franken has become part of that class. He is the most partisan senator in the democratic are two. Of 161voted 159 out votes with the Democratic Party. That makes him the most partisan senator in washington. That is a fact. I left my job and put my family at risk we can dobelieve better. We have an opportunity to see our best days ahead of us by getting on the pathway to growth and prosperity. It he gives with effective government. It begins with effective government. I will get type lines built. Built. Pipelines that will get more money and your pockets and allow us to grow. Thank you very much. If you believe some of the commercials, you are nothing more than a comedian, dont spend any time in minnesota. And evenwith obama proposed abortion on demand. How do you respond to critics who say you are wrong for minnesota . Ascribe to those websites. I always vote in what i believe is the interest of the people of minnesota. In an era where there has been a lot of gridlock, i have worked across party lines to find commonsense solutions. I worked with so Many Republican colleagues with vic luger on the Diabetes Prevention program. 75 of the cost of health care is chronic diseases, and diabetes is one of the biggest. On workforce training. On pharmaceutical safety i did a bill with pat roberts of kansas. Bill, i cowrote the energy title. I work for renewable energy. My first bill with johnny of georgia was a veterans bill. We have a propane crisis. I have worked across party lines and gotten things done. Part of the reason we had this meltdown five years ago was because the Credit Agency gave aaa ratings to all this junk. I did a bill to regulate these thesey cannot give aaa financial products. I did that with senator roger republican of mississippi. You can slice and dice these numbers anyway you want and come up with things that say pretty ridiculous they miss, but i work for minnesota every day, and i have been proud to do that. Lets get to the issues. I was told we would get a rebuttal. One thing i am going to ask everybody to do is watch his actions and not his words. Him on a billanks to cosponsor legislation. That is a fact, not the opinion. He has done nothing to accelerate. He has not approved the Keystone Pipeline. Look at his actions, not what he says. We can take these issues one by one. That study said ted cruz was one of the most nonpartisan senators hethe United States senate. Is the guy who led the shutdown of the government. If you are fighting that kind of thing i think that shows a weak position. Thats all. They are opposite sides of the actor. Al franken is the ted cruz of the Democratic Party. That tedut except cruz is more bipartisan than a majority of the senate. Lets move on with some of the issues. What is your position of safe transport of oil and where you stand on the expansion of pipelines . I am a huge fan of energy and pipelines, and i will work hard to get pipelines illtimed approved. We are sitting on the doorstep of an energy run a sense renaissance that will allow us to see the best days ahead of us as opposed to behind us. We have the opportunity to be energy independent, which is historic. We have not been Energy Independence since the early 1960s. What Energy Independence allows me to do for you is put more money in your pocket. Heating bills go down. Gasoline prices go down. We have had 1000 days of gas being above three dollars a gallon. It was one of 2008 dollar 60. We have become a manufacturing superpower once again. We are able to compete globally. We are able to in source highpaying jobs, not outsource them. I am a huge supporter of u. S. Steel. I am going to tell you the facts. The number one way to make our Steel Industry as competitive as we can globally is to lower the cost. Offranken wants to get rid the coal industry. Half of that ship out of the sport is cold. At the mine they spend 1. 3 month onvery electricity, which is driven by cool. I will make our industries more competitive. Roadl get us back on the to growth and prosperity. That is why i want you to vote. Portfolio a diverse of energy, and that includes fossil fuels. Global warming israel, and eventually we are going to have to move to Renewables Israel is real, and eventually we have to move to renewables. You can grow a big crop. If you cannot get it transported someplace that is a problem for why this rails issue so much is for crude. I have been going to the transportation board since i got to the senate. The republican of the cost of get filing a complaint with the transportation board that fromates the railroads 20,000 to 350 so people can i got theplaint. Transportation board to come out here. I got them to come to minnesota and to make sure they would get fertilizer to our farmers. Them back out again. It is not just grain. It is cold for our utilities. For our utilities. I dont want to get rid of coal. Are using for electricity is natural gas. That came from fracking, which was developed by the department of energy. Do energyy we like to research. I am chairman of the energy subcommittee, and this is something we will talk about. With all due respect, your lack of Energy Policy and lack of Energy Policy from president obama has caused a shortage. Approved any pipeline. The Keystone Pipeline has been under review process for six years. That is crazy. That is too long. Pipelines are proven to be the most efficient, most environmentally sensitive way to transport oil. Passingu start pipelines we are going to have a rail car shortage. I know how to get us on the road to growth and prosperity. As are putting bandaids opposed to going to the root causes. We need pipelines in this country. I want everyone to know i am for pipelines. I will get them built. That is the number one way to alleviate our railcar shortage. The Keystone Pipeline has nothing to do with the balk in oil with this oil. Alaska . Bout what i voted is to not circumvent the regulatory process on keystone. Let me tell you what i have voted for. I have voted for if we build the Keystone Pipeline it will be built with American Steel. Esther mcfadden said it would be ok with him if the Keystone Pipeline were made with chinese steel, if we are a little bit cheaper. Those are minnesota jobs. I fight for minnesota jobs. Maybe that is the difference between me and mr. Mcfadden. Maybe he sees profit over people. When i see a pipeline i wanted the old with American Steel. We have other pipelines. We have to make sure they are cited correctly. Pipelines are efficient in many cases. I want mr. Mcfadden to address the chinese steel issue. Between mr. Rence franken and myself is i will Talk Straight to you. I dont want to see for and. Till used in pipelines anymore he doesnt want you to know he voted against the pipeline. He has voted against the pipeline multiple times. Will get the pipeline built by taking advantage of the renaissance is the number one may number one way to make u. S. Steel as competitive as it can be. I know that and will get it done. Max they have been working to get permitted nine years and working to get precious metals. Copper nickel mining . Can it be done safely . With you. Gin i think the vast majority of minnesotans want those jobs to happen. They are going to be good paying jobs. Thought i think they want to make sure the groundwater isnt contaminated. Minnesotans want to make sure this is done right. They say this process is a good process. They say the regulators are tough but fair, and they want this done. They say the project has improved. It is safer. It is less likely to contaminate water for possibly centuries. I have the same view as the entire iron range delegation. All the delegations have a lets doiew on this. This right. We want to make this happen, but lets make sure we do it right. The only thing worse than taking a long time to get this right is getting it wrong. Rangers want sustainable mining. This is a new kind of mining. I just expanded what they were doing to help get permits. Important to our state. We need sustainable mining. Can Metals Mining be done safely . . Did you say nine years i want everyone to know i will fight for minors. Over 2t it has taken Million Dollars in regulatory review is not acceptable. It is crazy. I remind you the democratic had the opportunity to put forth in a platform that they support mining, and they didnt. Actions andnkens not his words. Times onitten multiple because he is connected at the hip with extreme environmentalists. I am tired of this that you are for the environment or for jobs. You can do both. I do not want to do anything that would harm our 10,000 lakes. We have a process that has taken nine years and we still do not have an answer. This is lunacy. Says theyre okay with the process. They have to say that. In regulatory limbo. They cant tell was they really think. The its been a reasonable process. Absolutely not. We have to demand that this be efficient. We need effective government. Will fight for it. Ive been in the private sector my whole ife and i know how to have efficiency and make efficiency. The miners and mines. The senator has had six years progress. Can i give you a minute to rebut that. Talking to the expect ives from the time i got here. I speak with them frankly. They know that this process has the project to make it less likely to contaminant the ground water which would be a disaster. The Forest Service has to eigh in because it has land exchanges. His its too important not to get this right. We need to get this right. Talk to the range delegation, the state delegation, in the they get elected by the people on the range. They want sustainable mining. They want to make sure that this right and if it is done right then this will be sustainable. This is the difference between a and myself. Here telling you today that al and myself. A reasonable hes here telling you today that nine years is a reasonable process. We have the opportunity not just polymet but with the whole thing up there. Bass it is the largest in the opportunity s the to create thousands of jobs. And billions and billions and dollars of Economic Impact in this state and in a region of the state that has one of the highest Unemployment Rates. Its almost twice the Unemployment Rate around the state of minnesota. Im here to tell you today that will fight for miners and rangers and ill win up in the advocate. Use im your lets talk about the Affordable Care act. T has with stood dozens of challenges in congress. Scrutiny of od the the Supreme Court and the law of the land. In his a settled issue or your opinion where should we go from here . Start withddon lets you. We have a healthcare issue in this country. Butow that as a businessman i guarantee you that obamacare is the wrong answer and its a trek and thats quoting and this train continues to wreck. And al was the 60th vote. This disaster e frankenstorm ken franken its a largest domestic policy generation and it was signed and nobody read it and then it was based on mistruth. The first one being that you could keep your insurance policy. 140 minnesotaians found out that wasnt true. He second being that you could keep your doctor. Well, we know thats not true. Is the biggest lie of all less. It will cost ive come forth with my own plan. Look at cost and accessibility and quality and my plan will costs, increase and maintain quality. Put a proposal for it and obamacare is a disaster and its too expensive and i will roll up sleeves and go to washington it get this fixed and ill make preexisting ith conditions can get insurance at a reasonable rate. A promise. Senator franken . Problems withbeen the rollout in a. C. A. Job is to make the affordable are act work as well as it can minnesotan. Minnesota has 95 of its people inh health insurance, second the country. People with preexisting conditions can no longer be down because they have a preexisting condition. If and you hit your lifetime limits you are thrown out. Whose daughterom fibrosys. C they seen that donut hole and it completely. Edicares solve ensy has extended. Do you want to take that away. For that is eason the costs 1,000 less for beneficiary than was projected in 2009 that would it cost now. Reforms cause of the made. Were were that. Ad in to need to continue incentivize healthcare and not sick care. We have so many Accountable Care organizations in minnesota that delivery unbelievably reform. Understand this. If they eels this repeal this it goes back to square one. It goes back to square one and back to a divided away. Ess and all this goes mr. Mcfadden. Clear, he obamacare is a train trek and ill fish our ive travelled around great state and been to all 87 six ies, al, in the last months and i have story after story for people where this working. Not type earold man who has two diabetes and has to go on the exchange and costs two times more. One. Less i hope he is doesnt have pre r to findd one bus he has a new policy. A woman came up to me with a eyes between fear and anger. She works in the mayo clinic and her premiums in the mail. You know what its going to cost her next year . 50 increase. 220 increase in a deductible. Thats not fair. E do have the best healthcare in minnesota. Thats the difference between al i. Nken and i want to solve it on a state level. I believe minnesota has the best world. Care in the i believe the states are laboratories for experiment. If we allow the federal do it our to healthcare will look like the v. A. And i wont allow that to happen. For you. Senator . It is a state system and understand this and at a turning point here. We can do one of two things. We can repeal the affordable act. No guarantees you get healthcare for preexisting if two have conditions. No guarantees you wont pay more if youre a woman. No because youre a woman 50 of all bankruptcies in this country caused by healthcare crises. Thats a choice here. The difference between mr. Mcfadden and me. Mistake about it. You beeal this and it there will 538 Different Health plans and o you think this congress now as gridlocked as it is is to come up with a Healthcare Plan that gives and all the tees other stuff that we have seen. The Great Recession is still especially up here in northern minnesota where the been quite as quick as it was elsewhere. What could washington be doing encourage he ceconomic recovery. Senator franken, lets begin with you. Of e had 54 straight months rivate Sector Employment increases. But its not going to the middle class. Part of that is because this is lot of wn economy and a companies is rigged offshore. Hey make their corporation in ireland or in bermuda. They do inversions. To focus on the middle 70 of our economy is consumption. Hen people have money, thats when businesses hire people is when people are spending money. Thats why i he oh im so gap. Ed on this skills three plus million jobs sitting can be filled if these jobs are if these trained. Re and it will make us more competitive. It will it will give people jobs. This is winwin. E also need theres 1. 2 trillion sitting out there in student debt. Student debt. Let people refinance their student debt. Car loan finance your and your home loan. You can refinance a business loan. Able to refinance a car loan . Raise the minimum wage. Cant you refinance a student loan . People are delaying buying a house. Delaying starting a family because of the student young d its not just people but parents and grandparents that are carrying this. Introduced the bill in the senate. We got three republican votes. Can get this done. Just allow people to refinance their student loan and put that into the economy. The facts. Ever since senator franken took obama who president l franken has voted with we have had the slowest we bound in the history of the United States. Stagnant economy. In minnesota wages have only over six a week years. Thats not acceptable. It is not acceptable. Heres another fact. Federal debt has gone up 70 to r al frankens watch 17. 5 trillion. Plan. E a its the three es. And mining. Its education and its effective government. Get the mines open. Thats a huge game changer. Get pipelines built. Senator franken said were only keystone out the pipeline. Were talking about the sandpiper, last can and many ore if we start getting this review process accelerated. We need people who go to d. C. Done and imthings glad you brought up education agree more we with jo skills s with jobs. Great esota, we have Public Schools. But unfortunately we dont have reat Public Schools for everyone. In fact theyre the worst for minority. And lowest for his panics Second Lowest for african americanses and below 50 . That is immoral. Where is the moral outrage on that . In in an involved Inner City School in one of the toughest neighbors where 90 of latino or e africanamerican and we have 100 gratification rate and 60 of the cost. I want to radically change the in the inner city. All children regardless of zip right to a first class education. Senator franken one minute rebuttal. Issue is economic recovery. Well, by some measures its been slowest recovery from a recession. It was called the great a reason. For this is the worst recession that ever had. We had 54 months of private jobs. Growth in so much of the income has gone thats a at the top and big problem. In the sixties ratio to average worker was 201 and now 3001 of the we economy. P down you want someone who is going to in the ing for those middle and those striving to be in the middle. To raise the minimum wage. We need to make sure that women work. Aid equal for equal those are things that mr. Mcfad do not is against. 560 ed against minnesotans 560,000 who would benefit student loans. G youve been in washington the you dont have. What you a that number . 97 of the time. 99 of the time. I have a plan to get this on the road. Ive traveled around this great state and been to all 87 in the last year. Have you been to 87 counties in year . Ast ive had over 1300 public you done a town hall meeting since elected. I believe president obama has halls than you have in this state. Public done so many meetings in which people have a chance to ask questions. In ve a minnesota breakfast washington every wednesday that to and and they ed questions so, dont listen to what he says. Look at his actions. I was at the university of minnesota last week. Supposed to debate. Decided he ken didnt want to debate. He showed up spoke and left. Hour and here for an ask a town skphal took multiple, multiple questions and i was students. College i loved doing that. I got to listen to the people. Eople know the economy is not working. Young people know that. Im winning with als dical melanin the Administration Says we will not commit ground troops. We deal with pose this issue of this growing theft. Ist mr. Mcfadden . That the ery happy president went on in front of nation and said were going to do Strategic Bombing in syria and iraq. Isis is a huge issue. They are barbarians. They need to be stopped. But i cant tell you how i am with the complete lack of Foreign Policy from this president and franken. This president went into office six years ago saying im going o sit down with the leaders of venezuela, north korea and iran and well make things work out. Was naive. The world is a more dangerous place today because weve not leading from behind is a mistake. E had an ambassador that was killed in benghazi and we did nothing and the world watched. President drew a red line in syria which was crossed. And we did nothing and the world watched. There should be no surprise as ukraine appened in the r in gaza or now in syria and iran. Whats really scary are the that in minnesota we become the number one recruiting terrorists in minnesota. And im really concerned about that. Want to know what al franken has done over the last six years because this didnt with isis. His started in in 2008, 2009 and it wasnt until a couple weeks ago that al franken sent a letter to the attorney general. A letter. I mean, after this has been for multiple years. Thats a day late and a dollar used to always day. Equip ted to train and the rebels in syria. Syria. Ort the bombing in object serve the border between iraq and syria we either. T lets talk about the terrorist recruiting. Incredibly devastating families. There are about two undrededfuls, about 10 or 12 minnesotans who have been recruited to iraq and syria. This is an issue right when i we knew that he was beginning to recruit from communities. The first days that i was in office i got i went to the fbi and got briefings on that in washington. Briefings cess i got from the special agent in charge in st. Paul. The e worked with community. Law e worked with enforcement. Pressed the secretary of homeland security. I pressed the director of the this hearings on recruitment. Going diminish what was letter on d. O. J. To spend more recesses in our said yes, nd they they would did that. And i was at a Community Meeting two weeks ago wiand the who understood this was important to get those resources in. Couple comments. Voted to support the president in the arming of Syrian Rebels. Record o make sure the is clear. This president was advised by of the National Security counsel and his arm the of state to free Syrian Rebels two years ago and he declined to do so. Was also advised by every staff, of the chief of staffs to keepof a residual force in iraq and he to so. He supported 97 of the time and when we talk about the terrorist recruitment in minnesota i met Community Leaders and one of the biggest concerns is education. Education worst outcomes for minorities. The worst. Lower than 50s Andal L Franken Committee Education and hes complicit these are the causes that need to be addressed. Ill get them addressed and im solver. Mr. Little over a year ago mcfadden had the opportunity to weigh in on what to do in syria president assad used chemical weapons. Every candidate for the United States senate was asked public radio for their views on what to do. Answered except for mr. Mcfad do not. Answer. Sed to because it was a tough call. Lot of tough calls. It is easy to score political from the bleachers. Job. Is a serious real choices make in real time. This. Tand every republican candidate for asked by nprte was syria and ould do in mr. Mcfadden blinked. Transportation from dredging to make luth harbor sure theyre safe. It . O we pay for senator franken. Happy we got the money for dredging. I fought for that. Need to pay for in infrastructure. And the highway tpruft fund is out of money. Now there are certain ways we it. Theres money there to pay for this. Or example, i voted to end the subsidies, the oil and Gas Companies. Are il and Gas Companies the most successful, riches, companies in the history of the world and yet they get in ions of dollars a year subsidies. Was i voted to end the billions of dollars of oil and Gas Companies. Was attacked because thats increasing taxes. We should not be sub sid dies. Be building roads. We should be building highways. That. Mcfadden was asked at press conference we would be tax and he the gas said yes. Then he reversed himself. Said let melear, he against it. And there are other places that we money. Ting to in the ding up next 30 years a trillion dollars our Nuclear Weapons arsenal. Weapons we will never use. Question. Its a great we have a huge infrastructure ssue tkph this country and i spent the last six months traveling around minnesota. Repaired and e to bridges. It is the role of the federal we need t to fund it. Overhaul how we do it. You need to take responsibility for calls. Wrong i believe that the way that we fund for in from a structure working right now. The gas tax is unsustainable to get as cars continue more and more gas mileage, well have less and less revenues. We got to find a better way to o and got to be part of a dramatic overhaul of the tax code and in order to accomplish we got to traumatically change the mindset in ashington, d. C. Its so partisan and no one takes responsibility. Republicans dont take responsibility for outcomes. They say, we cant get anything cant work with the president or harry reid. The democrats say we cant get done because we cant work with the house of representatives. Well, this is democracy. Youll always have 46. Oull rarely have one party rule. Its the wisdom of our founding constitution. R i put forth al franken has proven over the past six years part of the problem and not the solution and the most partisan senator despite what he says. At what he does. Votes. Ted 159 out of 161 he is number one in the Democratic Party. In a universe of one. E is part of the problem and solution. F the you cherry now how pick those votes. Ive taken a lot more votes than that. I can tell you again, one of the things that i by the mcfadden ampaign was voting to get rid of a tax break for companies overseas. Jobs i was in winona a come of years ago and i talked to a woman this in tears. She told me how trw made her mexican workers who is going to replace her in guess in mexico. And what . A Tax Deduction for closing the factory and workers up there. Im sure theyre wonderful people, the workers. Want to get rid of that to help pay for the things we need like infrastructure. Mcfadden cked by the campaign for taking that vote. Thank you, gentlemen. More minute. Thank you, roger. I appreciate it. This is t to be clear, from open congress. You can go on the website. His is a ranking how often Democratic Senators vote with the majority of the senate, the 113th caucus for session of congress which is the last session. Over the last two years. Al franken is number one. Theres only one member of the party in the u. S. Senate that is number up with. Es the most partisan senator in the u. S. Senate in the Democratic Party. That is a fact. One again i caution you, look at facts and look at not what al franken says. Ill go to washington to fix things. Ill roll and my sleeves. Have received the endorsement for many people from the Independence Party and the republican party. Even have a number of reagan democrats that are supporting me. And build washington consensus. Ive spent my whole life in business doing. To fixing forward this country and getting us on path of growth and pos parity. Were nearing the end of our ime together and alert to our broadcast partners we might run want over 9 oclock but we to allow efficient time for each candidate to have a closing remark. Senator franken. We allow 2. 5 minutes to wrap it up. For ank you and thank you hosting this debate and i want mcfadden for being here. And for mentioning that and i are having our 39th wedding anniversary. Married 39 ll be years. Many of them happy. Applause] we were blessed 16 months ago with a grandson, my is named from o my dad. In washington. Liveughter and her husband there. Heading up programs in the elementary skolz. One of the things i get to do is after a day of work and put my grandson to bed. When hes asleep i think about possibilities for this kid. Parents love him. Theyre well educated and hes going to do fine. I think about when i grew up park. Louis my dad didnt graduate high school. My mom didnt go to college. Dad with you a printing salesman. A two bedroom one bath rambler. Common post world war ii home. I felt like the luckiest kid in world because i was. My ought the world was oyster and it was. Want. Ld do anything i i want to i think a lot of that way feel anymore. And i want to make sure every that way. Nesota feels that they have a shot and that can bet on themselves and opportunity e the to put a ood job and roof over their familys head nd put food on the table and have access to quality and be able to go on vacation and pension will be here and Social Security will be there. Thats what i want. On nt minnesotans to bet themselves. And i know if we bet i know minnesota. Of and if we bet, we have great nnovators and great entrepreneurs and research universities. Do this. Thank you. Thank you. Mcfadden. Final word . First of all, thank tout moderators. A phenomenal job. I want to thank al franken. Appreciate your time today. I think its important that innesotans have a chance to hear about both our visions for our country and our state. Want to thank the you an kwrepbs aud audience. Youve been respecful. For the u. S. Senate because we can do better. The t to go forth and set world on fire. Im running for my six kids. m running for the minnesotans that ive met around this great fundamentally believe that this country is not going in the right direction. They dont believe that obama is leading us in the right direction. Al im running against franken who has voted with the time and 97 of the the most partisan senator in the Democratic Party ask there is a the two trast between of us. There is not a lot of gray. Es for more government and more regulation and high cost nergy and obamacare and the status quo and the Education System that doesnt work for vulnerable most citize citizens. I have a much different vision. For effective and Efficient Government and smart regulation and ill get the mines open. A promise. Im for low cost energy and build pipelines. Healthcare system that works for all citizens thats first class that is run pwaesed in minnesota and not by the federal government and radically revising the Education System in the inner city. Promise to each one of room. Re in the as your next senator in the great state of minnesota i wont down. Y head ill keep my head high and lead. I have a plan. I will be independent. I will go to washington to do something and not to be something. I will fight for you. My name is Mike Mcfadden and im unning for the u. S. Senate and id love to have your vote on november 4th. Thank you. Of us, half of all thanks for joining us. We hope you find the debate help you make the decision on election day. Continues rage tomorrow with two debates from illinois. Andidates from u. S. House quinn nine eastern pat ebates his republican bruce rounde raupber. In Pennsylvania Republican faces a tom korb bit challenge from tom wolf. Candidates met for the hird televised event in pittsburgh. This is an hour. Pennsylvania as well as our audience. This is the final debate in the race for governor. Welcome to our candidates. And challenger tom wolf. Have one minute to answer each question. Any followup questions will be a one minute response. At the conclusion of tonights questions each candidate will a 1 million closing statement. Our order was predetermined in coin flip with governor corbitt winning that flip and defer to mr. Wolf. Debate ringing you this so lets begin with susan. Evening. On behalf of the league of women pennsylvania i extend for cere thank you exchange. Ing in this pennsylvanians need to know who voting for. Yre so lets begin with our first for the evening. Pennsylvania has a book on the law that has been on the book thats not s and working. Data shows that a woman in on average earned 0. 77 for every dollar a man more and earlier this year comprehensive legislation addressing the gap failed to pass. Significant number of pennsylvania women and their finallies continue to be short changed. What will you do as governor to cap . Nate the pay equity good ill do my best to make sure bills like that pass. We absolutely need a pay equity law in pennsylvania and do a much better job making that women are paid at the same level as men for the same work. Worked hard to make sure that was the case and do that in eed to the statement we need to make sure that pennsylvania has a level Playing Field for so that women feel that they have my two can ters feel that they invest their talents and skills in a place like pennsylvania. Wei think we found something agree upon. In pennsylvania we need to have that. The workforce grow with women across the spectrum years but 30, 40 there needs to be pay equity and i supported that bill. E need to work with the done. Ature to get that ive already gun that. In the senior en staff than the history of pennsylvania. Senior staff is led by the chief of staff. Members of my cabinet are women, so i certainly believe in involved in the workforce and im reminded of my who is Deputy Attorney general. Theres billion dollar of erence between the two you over the cut or increased education. It appears to be depend on how if you count federal stimulus money. Is your math right and your opponents math wrong and what thehe differences add up to parents and kids of pennsylvania. Clearly my opponent along with the Public Sector loon 80ones are saying and lying that we cut. The cut took place and everybody enquirer and the other papers agreed it took time. That point in we grew the budget back over and we have put more money into education at any time n the history much education here in pennsylvania. I think its an extremely important for the people of to understand. But we have limited revenue in which do that. Stimulus money and put it into the budget and that termed g away, that was by donna cooper the policy calculated risk and that was irresponsible to take place. Mr. Wolf. We do disagree. Dollars was cut in corbitts first term. So thats a cut of a billion dollars. Still in a was basically education in the aaccountability grant and reimbursement. If you look at the funds were still down. At ou dont believe it look the schools. 27,000 educators and class sizes have gone up and property taxes have gone through we are not spending what we spent before and that can be seen by everybody. We need to invest in education. If i may. Could each of you then explain what your g with poepb innocent just said, why is his accounting or wrong is happening. What because he wants to iing floor that money was taken out budget before i became governor. Money way put in and replaced. Remember that risk that was taken by the prior administration. When he says 14,000 or off, 0 teachers were laid 14,000 of those occurred in the prior administration. At state ou look spending, money from the taxpayers of pennsylvania, were highest level in the history of pennsylvania. But you have to acknowledge causing all t is property taxes to go up at School District level and to thing that he wants choose to ignore since it isnt that big of a deal and thats the pension crisis which im you have questions about. Actually we do have a pension problem. The difference i think is that governor corbitt does not want to take responsibility for the cut and setting priorities. Cut from the federal government but that doesnt relieve a leader from making tough decisions. The responsibility was his budget. The responsibility for that cut his. The responsibility forsetting wereties was his and the still down in classroom spending happened in his watch. Your question for mr. Watch. Thank you. The two pension public their debt out outweighs assets by a combined of 47 billion. Is expected to reach 65 billion within the next five years. Reforms would you support and where would you get increase, the funds to payments into the financially ailing pension fund . Here. Are two issues one is the plan design and so much of the conversation has been focused on plan design. Actually, i think, made good plan design changes in act 124 ago. It was a bipartisan effort. Came up with a plan that draconian and will ead over the next 10, 20, 30 years with a real savings. We have done something in plain design. We havent done is paid adequately into the fund into plus years and governors have not adequately paid into fund. We need to figure out a way to do that. About to do something that. I will not keep delaying payment. Something. Ally do all right. Thank you. Elaine, its interesting to note that he continues to say hat the governors havent paid fully over the past ten years. Obviously he hasnt looked at the budgets where we have paid fully. And the number is over year. Illion new each 610 million last year and 610 and that budget will be 3. 3 billion of the budget for the going to be pension. So we have been doing it under my watch. Reduced their contribution to that. To answer your question, we do new system. O a we have recommended and we came up with a plan that was legislature really wanted to go with that. Get to a plan if we another round of questions ill support and move to that. For me. Lowup you can envision a time that it is so dire that you have to stop pensions for these people, these workers . First mr. Wolf. No. Pension Retirement Security is part of the compensation package and part of what we offer Public Sector workers, teachers, people who work in the revenue police. Nt and state e need to make sure a pension Retirement Security as part of that compensation package. To the ve an obligation people who are working for pennsylvania who put their money in. Their money in. The Police Officers put their in. Ey everybody put their money in. Legislatures and governors and changing the forth. Yers and so we have to bite the bullet and start reforming how were paying system rather than saying e continue to pay at 610 million for the next 25 years. Ct 120 did not solve the problem. There is no silver bullet. But what we have to do is take look at it for future particularly for new employers who are coming in. Wolf can you say where money to put into the funds where that would come from . 29 billion budget, we can rearrange priorities. For a 5 tax on shale that will add a billion to the of revenue general fund. But what we have to do is i think figure out how were going that 10 billion debt, people 10 billion and are working on both sides of the aisle. To is what we have contribute to pay the unpaid debt we havent paid in the past. Governor and governor i got to say youve been governor for our years now and its coming to this kind of late in the process. We eed i agree with you, need to fix the pension fund and the unpaid balance soon. Delaying that because that will make it much more expensive. Yet. Avent done it if im governor we will. Corbitt. Or he didnt answer your question as he doesnt in your debate. Going to here are you get your money. That was your question as i heard it. You get it through taxes and the revenue that comes in the state. Thats what becomes so difficult because the ues are coming from taxpayers of pennsylvania. To e gonna have to be able develop a plan that the taxpayers will afford at the same time not harm the workers have invested in the program. Now, based upon that answer, im agrees with me he me we have contributed. Im not coming late. Contributed the entire time. Was digging our way out a 4. 2 billion deficit that i inherited from my predecessor revenue secretary. We have been talking about the pension and something that the republicans and democrats working with the governor will have to address taxpayers of pennsylvania cannot afford not addressing it. Thank you very much governor. Aven have a viewer question. How do you see the profits of of marijuana going in pennsylvania. Governor corbitt . The viewers here know my ackground as an attorney general and as the United States attorney for the Western District of pennsylvania. Support the legalization of marijuana for recreational purposes. A study with ed different childrens hospitals pennsylvania into the cbd oil and limited to that to see effective. But when it comes to other tpofrpforms that have been discussed in the legislature and ind the bill may at this ing too far point. I do not agree with those and the legalization of marijuana for recreational purposes. Because i tpbg for all the work ive done over at this the years, its a gateway drug that creates all drug problems were seeing here and the United States. To legalize medical marijuana and decriminalize small amounts of marijuana. Destroy too many lives and weaken our economy by taking too out of the workforce by charges. Iminal that we ought to let see what happens in places like colorado and washington before go further with the legalization of recreational marijuana. You, gentlemen. Susan. Thank you. Pennsylvania is one of the largest and Fastest Growing natural gas producers. Adopted er states have measures to reduce methane and pennsylvanialution has not. Please speak to your position on importance of reducing methane given the increasing gas plays as a fuel source. Make sure that we take full advantage of this but al resource environmentally responsibly. Which ill put a 5 severance extraction tax on the extraction. And 5 tax would raise with the out there roduction right now would raise about a billion dollars. Ome of that should go to the department of Environmental Protection and the right number will oversee the regulation of this industry. Clean water and we make that we protect our environment. Thats what i would do and again, i think that he a contrast between the approach this governor is taking to this issue. Corbitt. Or i totally disagree with him on the approach weve taken. Have taken a very, very orceful approach to the protection of the environment. And just recently you may have een different fines weve imposed on Major Companies for making spills and making there. S out shale pass the legislation act 13 we created the toughest laws in the nation it comes to the development of natural gas in the United States. E had other states and countries come and see exactly what we d the men and woman who dep have been out there conducting basis the inspections. When necessary weve been imposing the fines that is fines. Y to get the learned in recent weeks dozens of people on your watch forwarded hundreds of sexually explicit emails. Account for that climate existing in a law despite nt agencies your explicit policy against such stkpheupbg do you believe thoseformation on some of sized . Has been phreut it from day one. This is totally unacceptable. The behavior. E had i been aware of it we would right then ask there. We have taken steps with those actually viewed and forwarded that on who work for me today. At the same time though, were for the attorney general to forward the information on all the people who were involved because i all the people need to be exposed if you want to use that to know that this was not political on her part. That this was something that she took action against these individuals and exactly what place. Action took i think the chief justice of the Supreme Court has called on her do that and i would hope that her tonent would call on let the public see. Mr. Wolf. Is his kind of behavior unacceptable and i think as i said before this is something really comes from a this e has existed in administration that allows to think they can do this sort of thing. You make it clear this is not appropriate. If they happen you take fast action to hold people accountable. You wanted another minute. Minutes. D two was it the culture of these people under your watch . Obviously those who viewed that were making a mistake. I cant account for their judgment in that regard. So it troubles me greatly they would do that. Obviously they didnt show it to me so they probably knew what my reaction would be. So if youre talking about a top it didnt e come from me and i think he knows that. This is a political shot hes because i won put up with that. I have been going after ornography cases and child abuse cases my entire career. This is totally unacceptable and disappointed that the actions that were viewed and the received and the limited emails we received demonstrates they the fact is that there are Software Programs out there, the state has had a long time. If somebody looked at and used state property for looking at Something Like that, they were dismissed. That was something that happened five or six years ago when you were attorney general. There is ample opportunity for without you seeing the evidence to make sure the stuff does not happen. The culture does start from the top and we need to make sure this kind of thing is deemed unacceptable and Everybody Knows it. We have the means at hand to make sure it does not happen. R about implementing a x on Natural Gas Drilling and you have said you would overhaul the states personal income tax. What youryou explain specific plans are for overhauling the personal income tax, who will pay less, who pay more, by how much. I think i have been as specific as i can be. I want to make sure we have a fair tax system. That applies to property taxes which are too high and too personal income tax which i think is unfair and it applies