Nullification issues. Grid ands. Electric its former building, and a guest from the Pew Research Center in our america by the numbers serious. Series. Tomorrowon journal, and everyday day at 7 00 a. M. Eastern. To the whitete house 2016 coverage with senator amy klobuchar, democrat of minnesota. She will receive the beacon award for Hillary Clinton tomorrow at the annual wingding in clear lake, iowa. Live coverage of that event at 7 00 p. M. Eastern. Season two of first ladies, influence and image, begins monday, september 9 with a look at the life of Edith Roosevelt. All this month, encore presentations of season one. Each weeknight at 9 00 p. M. Eastern, from programs of every first lady from Martha Washington to ida mckinley. Tonight, Mary Todd Lincoln. [captioning performed bynational captioning institute] [captions Copyright Nationalcable satellite corp. 2013] born in 1818 in lexington, kentucky, mary todd grew up and lived to see her husband issued the emancipation proclamation 45 years later. A mother of four sons, she witnessed the death of three of those sons as well as her husbands assassination. Her life was filled with tragedy, but as lincolns political partner, she relished we focus onss. As the civil war years, one of the defining moments in our countries history, a look at the life and times of Mary Todd Lincoln, one of the most complex first ladies ever to live. Thank you for being with us for cspans serious. We invite two of our academic advisors. Our guests for this program. Rosalyn penn is a history professor at meredith and Morgan Richard nortonty. Smith, our other guest tonight, the director of five president ial libraries, including the Abraham Lincoln library in springfield, illinois. Thanks to both of you for being here. We willincoln start with richard is often viewed in broad strokes. Bouts of depression, criticism of her lavish spending and overly in gold indulgent mother. If you look at a more nuanced picture, what do you see . That is why we need to get 90 minutes, to begin to get at the nuances. She matters immensely. Has been called the Great American story, an integral part of the Great American story. Steven spielberg doesnt make movies about julia tyler or louisa adams. Mary todd lincoln remains someone who is symbolically divisive, perhaps. To some, a heroine, others a victim. She is a surprisingly contemporary figure as well. I like her because she is so complex. I say i like her. Elizabeth was her dressmaker and companion. She did not live at the white as a good deal of time. An africanamerican. Formerly enslaved, purchased her own freedom and was interviewed along with other women to become the first ladys seamstress. Or modess, as they called it. She made the most beautiful dresses. What do you learn about mrs. Lincoln through elizabeth i do know if you call it her narrative, her look behind the scenes. It gives you a very concrete sketch of the relationship she had with her for four years. Just reading what elizabeth tells you gives you an idea of how complex and hurt and victimized she was. It is the most intimate portrait we have of mary. We will begin our new lost nuanced image of mary lincoln. We all call her mary todd. But if we look at our wall of signatures, she signed her name mary lincoln. Where did mary todd come from . It was modern. She did not use it as i understand. A 20th century invention. Lincoln famously said, mocking the pretensions of his wifes family, gone are the time en the todds needed one d. God only needed one d and the todds of kentucky needed two. A thousand times she heard that joke. Hes 6 foot 4, shes 5 foot 2 if that. He had a habit of introducing themselves as the long and the short of it. Another joke she probably endured more than enjoyed. These programs work because they are interactive and we will get to phone calls. You can also go to the Facebook Page or tweet using 1860, as the. Lection is won at that point, there were 31 Million People in 33 states. Although 11 states were to break off soon thereafter to form the Confederate States of america. 36. 6 growth since 1850. Continuing to grow at an enormous pace. 3. 9 million slaves, 12. 7 of the population. The largest cities were new york, philadelphia, and that was, and baltimore. The country Abraham Lincoln inherited. They arrive at the white house. Set the scene for the election and how tumultuous politics were. The political process had broken down. There were four parties that ran in 1860. The Democratic Party that was the one truly National Political organization split into northern and southern wings, divided over the issue of slavery. Stephen douglass, lincolns longtime rival and at one point romantic rival for marys hand is the democratic nominee from the north. Vice president breckinridge is the southern democratic hig party. The w nominated someone named john bell from tennessee, middleof theroad to support the constitution platform. That left this new party, the republicans, who were defined as being antislavery, but not radically antislavery. They were all about containing the spread of slavery. Lincoln along with 40 of the vote, the news of his election reached the states almost immediately to secede. Firste white house that the lady inherited had been the domain of harriet lane, who was much beloved in washington. Really admired for her social skills even as the country was fracturing. New was the view of the first lady, mary lincoln, as she came to the white house . Historian Catherine Clinton said that in one of her biographies, she broke the elite virginia scheme of things. Many of the congressional wives at some of the women that were very important during the Virginian Times were resentful. They lampooned them. Lincoln and her. The sad thing was, she was a very intelligent and highly educated woman from the family in terms of what you consider wealthy and good families. But they treated her very badly. The other thing that might have hit her is that washington was a swamp. Disease ridden. In many ways. When i came to washington, it was mosquitoridden. That was not 150 years ago. I am sure she had a difficult time dealing with that. She complained about how drab and worn the white house itself was. Some of the furniture was back to the days of dolly madison. She had a lot to worry about. If you think of the repercussions of this woman arriving from kentucky, referred to as the republican queen, mocked by people that do not know her and willing to assume the worst about these banquets, incolns, backwoods l that puts a chip on her shoulder even before she arrives in the capital. It might begin explain some of her shopping, some of her preoccupation with fixing up the white house, for example. And we have a quote from her, her rationale for why she spent so much money on her own attire. I must address myself in this attire because people who scrutinize every article i wear with curiosity. The fact i have grown up in the west subject to more searching observation. When she interviews Elizabeth Keckley, she asks how much she will charge for her dresses. Keckley says, i will be reasonable. They came to an agreement. My theory is that she wanted a lot of dresses but could not afford to pay lavishly. On her budget, she was able to get what she wanted because keckley agreed not to overcharge her. Paint a portrait of what life was like in the Lincoln White house as a Family Living there and the public using the space. It was astonishingly open to the public. In the middle of the great civil war that is raging, twice a week, the president would throw open his office and people could line up as long as they could wait for his Public Opinion badge. These were mostly jobseekers. Mrs. Lincoln, the children finessed themselves around these folks. The two boys at the beginning, of course. Willie was 10 years old when they arrived, and his younger brother. Robert have got off to harvard. There was another brother that they lost years earlier in springfield. Mrs. Lincoln looked upon the white house very much as a symbol of this nation. They took seriously the responsibilities. As the woman responsible for the appearance of the house, remember that this was a time when the country was coming apart at the seams. The symbolic value of americas house is even greater. In some ways, she took the same view of the white house. This network produced a documentary on the white house and we visited the lincoln bedroom. We will show you that next to show you the kind of spending that mary lincoln did on the furniture. It dates back to 1861, bought by Mary Todd Lincoln as part of white house refurbishing. 8 feet long, 6 feet wide, made of carved rosewood. The lincoln bed with a purple and gold and lace. Victorian decorating. We have later photographs with the bed still dressed the way that she dressed it. It is this bed bought by mary lincoln that holds the key to understanding the lincoln familys time here. It was one of mary lincolns many extravagant purchases when she began a campaign to redecorate this entire building. She spent so much money, and he flew into a rage and said it was a stink in the nostrils of the American People. She was dying flubdubs for that damned old house. In 1862, lincolns middle son died after a bout with typhoid fever. Mary never went into the room or looked at the bed again. Willies death lincoln took to the window and let her look across the river at a Mental Institution. If you dont get a hold of yourself, you will have to be put there. That was her time to absorb it. By contrast, it would hole up the week he died just to grieve. How they handle their grief goes to how we see them today. In the case of mary, it unhinged her. The final blow. The war melded the disparate elements of lincolns personality and his grief. His loss of willie morphed into the nations sense of loss. Millions of homes throughout the union. It was a different interpretation. Congress allotted her 20,000, four years later, they allotted 125,000 for refurbishing. She did not have enough money to spend. How could she have spent some much if they only allocated 20,000 . Was it all on that one bad . She overspent the 20,000 by about 6,000. There was a war going on. It is part of the legend and the myth. The outofcontrol shopaholic. A political aspect of that, how did the country react to her extended mourning when there were so many sons of mothers dying on the battlefield . She basically disappeared for over one year. Her social life ended for over a year. She ordered the marine band to stop playing concert on the white house grounds, maybe they could move to lafayette park. Her grief was too great. She indulged herself even beyond the standards of the day. Her compatriot was Queen Victoria that would spend the rest of her life grieving over the loss of prince albert. What brought her out of her grief . She was continuing to be vilified. Her son, robert, who was really a disappointment in the long run, had her incarcerated and sent into a Mental Institution. She decided, i am going to get out of here. She was able to mobilize to get her out of the Mental Institution. I dont think she ever really recovered from the loss of willie. It was not just willie. At the loss of edward, her husband, tad. And the loss of her mother that sent her to springfield in the first place. Her life is shattered by loss. Shadowed by loss. Tell me how she served as the first lady to the president. Her intuition about individuals is more accurate than that of her husband. Does lincoln listen to her . Think that she tried to advise him but his advisers did not want her interfering. That was definitely the case when he was dying and they to took her from the room and would mourn, her in to which was a traditional thing in her culture. The wife stays with the husband until he dies. They robbed her of that. Gary robinson asks, did mary lincoln create enemies out of social rivals . Who was her main antagonist . She had a number of rivals. Kate chase, the daughter of the secretary of the treasury made no secret about wanting to replace lincoln in the white house. Kate was quite the belle of the ball. It is safe to say that mrs. Lincoln had no great love lost for kate. Part of the legend, and it is accurate, the stories of her accompanying the president to the battlefield near the end of the war. She lost it. The reason the grants did not go to fords theater was because julia grant did not want to risk having another confrontation with this unpleasant woman. What did the staffing of her . They liked her. Only four of the staff remained when the lincolns came to the white house. They brought in new staff, primarily freed blacks. Those that were interviewed talked about her in a very positive way. She got along well with them because they were the ones that helped raise her after her real mother died. Lincolns personal secretary did not use the best descriptions of her. As a young man, they have their own reasons to resent. They both had nicknames that the secretaries used to refer to them. Outside of washington, what was the perception of the first family . That is a great question. If you read the press of the day, there was a considerable amount of criticism. If she had been more press conscious, we know how much time she spent visiting soldiers and hospitals. Writing letters to soldiers that were unable to write themselves. Taking food and gifts. And she never took reporters along with her. If she had been a little bit more p. R. Conscious, who knows what it might have done . The press followed her into every store they went into. That is what they reported, those kinds of things. Ron, youre on. Go ahead, please. You have indicated that there continues to be great controversy among historians and biographers over the lincoln marriage. The first school of thought was initially presented in a biography by his law partner based on his postassassination interviews with the multitude of lincolns, colleagues, neighbors, servants, etc. They reinforced the view that she was a domestic hell on earth with frequent outbursts with multiple instances of thrown objects including a piece of fire would that resulted in her battered husband having a broken nose. The other is presented as an appealing love story that reflects the deep skepticism over the veracity of the informants. About the super abundance of evidence to the contrary for both the prepresident ial and a president ial periods. Scholars have given more edence to her written as the herndons testimony. This is culminated in the 2008 biography. In the interest of time, do you want to know which they think is more correct . One more thing i want to add. James mcpherson criticized the relentless hostility towards the lincolns which marred the image. My question is, what is your assessment of the depiction of mary lincoln and what is their assessment of the Motion Pictures portrayal . Are you familiar . Michael is hostile to mary, certainly amassed a great deal of evidence to support his view. Eleanor and franklin people, and they are pretty much abraham and married people. Mary people. There are people that will not set on the same stage at scholarly symposiums. They are so committed to one or the other and how passionate these historians feel. Abraham seemed committed to mary. And that is the ultimate test, in some ways. I wonder if he has read Catherine Clintons biography of mrs. Lincoln where she engages him. You have to really look at the reasons why people write biographies or books. He was angry. And later took it out on mary. From what i have heard, you have to look at the motives behind the books. I asked what you thought of the modern portrayal. It was wonderful precisely because it transcends all of it is, to me, the most lifelike portrayal, not only of mary but of the marriage that ive ever seen to ever seen. I agree. From mary lincoln about her own view at the public perception, i seem to be the scapegoat for both the north and the south. We will show you next, another video. A woman at her summer cottage not very far from the capital to call the soldiers home. President lincolns cottage was a seasonal home for the lincoln family. Mary lincoln really pushed for the move out here to the soldiers home because she thought it was a place for her family to have more privacy than at the white house. We are in the mary lincoln room which is not part of our typical experience of the cottage. We call it the mary lincoln room because when they moved here in the summer of 1863, she is involved in a pretty serious carriage accident. Some believe the carriage had been tampered with and this was an early assassination attempt. When she suffered that accident, the drivers seat separate from the carriage and the horses are startled at take off, she had to leap out of the carriage in order to save herself. She suffered a head injury. She is treated at the white house, and she comes out to the soldiers home to make a recovery. Not only is it the most isolated of the bedrooms, but it is the only one with windows allowing for better crossbreezes. In 1862, there is the imperative of having a more private place to mourn and grieve after the death of willie. Mary lincoln was going about the traditional cultural and social expectations of a woman in morning and felt like she could not do it as effectively at the white house. For her, there was a personal imperative to come out to this home to grieve the loss of her son. One of the best documented events that actually took place is a seance that was hosted out here after the death of willie lincoln. Noah brooks writes about that account. Lincoln felt that mary was being taken advantage of and that she might be subject to blackmail. He asked for some of his colleagues and friends to check out the situation and see if they could figure out what the medium is doing and figure out how to make the noises he was claiming were spirits. Here at the soldiers home, he recounts noises they were hearing in when the lights turned on, they were a