that year, america began to gain jobs. a painfully slow, but steady job recovery has now taken hold for the last 18 months. and here is the key, if you want to bring it back to politics. if the economy adds just over 100,000 jobs per month between now and the election, america will have gained back every single job lost during the obama presidency. north zuckerman is the editor in chief of "u.s. news & world report." he's also an extremely wealthy and successful democratic businessman. and he wrote this week, president obama's economic programs have failed. mort, the economy is on pace, as you saw, to get back every job lost under president obama, about a recession that he didn't start. why? why are you saying it's failed? >> let me put it this way. in the first place, those numbers are slightly misleading. we need 125,000 to 150,000 jobs every month just to take into account the new people coming into the labor force. >> absolutely, but that's not the criticism. >> i haven't finished. i'm not debating you. i'm just trying to give you some facts. >> all right. >> you compare this to any previous recovery from any previous recession, whether it was in the 1970s or the 1980s. at this point, the economy was growing somewhere between 6% and 8%. with the largest stimulus program, both in terms of monetary policy and fiscal policy, we are having the slowest job growth. if this is a recovery, we need a recovery to recover from the recovery. >> mort, even -- >> and -- >> i'm not comparing us to india. i'm just talking about the policyies that this administration has put into effect. the stimulus program that they put in, which was $800 billion was badly directed and badly formed and almost every economist will tell you that. that's number one. number two, the health care program cost, according to studies by both, the university of california and the university of chicago, somewhere between $2 million and $2.5 million jobs. and it is true there are jobs being created. these jobs are mostly part-time jobs, rather than full-time jobs. >> let me ask you this. let me ask you this. point taken on everything you've said. you know your stuff, you know the research. would somebody else have done a better job? >> i don't know. >> if john mccain were elected, would we be in a different situation? >> i doubt it. i didn't vote for john mccain. as you know, i supported president obama. and my newspaper -- >> so you're blaming him for something that you're not sure could've been solved a different way? >> excuse me for a second. i think he went in with the wrong programs. i think he made a huge mistake with the health care program. when over 80% of the country wanted health care costs to be got under control and he focus on expanding the coverage to over 30 million people, which blew out the medicaid and medicare deficits even longer. number two, he wasn't able to deal with the deficits because he couldn't reach a compromise with the republicans. i'm not going to get into a blame game. it was up to the president to make that happen and he didn't. and as far as the stimulus program is concerned, it was a bust. and finally, he alienated the whole business community and the business confidence has just collapsed in terms of their view of this administration. not all of these were necessary, if i may say so. >> all right. we'll get back to that in a second. president obama is the incumbent. he has a record. bone jones was a special adviser to president obama, focused on green jobs and innovation. van is also the offer of rebuild the dream. governor mitt romney, van, reached back into the clinton years this week and stressed that it is still all about the economy. van, what does president obama have to do to point to successes in the economy, in the face of those criticisms, and the kind that we're hearing from mort zuckerman, a democrat? >> well, i mean, first of all, it's interesting to me. i think we all are frustrated with the economy. the reality is that when you talk about the stimulus package, a third of the stimulus package was tax cuts. conservatives say they're for tax cuts. a third of the stimulus was tax cuts. 95% of americans got tax cuts under the stimulus. another third, he was saving cops, teachers, firefighters from being thrown out of work in the hundreds of thousands across america. if your kid went to kindergarten and a teacher was standing there to welcome them in those years, thank president obama. the president was -- >> hey, van, let me interrupt you for a second -- >> -- in the full -- >> van, let me stop you for a second. again, like mort, you're making good points. the president seems to struggle getting that message out there. is that going to change in the course of the next few months? because that's the kind of stuff that he's going to have to have people remember about teachers and about firefighters and about how bad it could have been, if the stimulus weren't in place, as unsuccessful as some people say it is. >> well, i mean, this is the most important thing, i think, he can say. now he finally, fortunately, we have a president who's honest enough to be in washington, d.c., trying to solve the problems, not just out there, making case for himself. had he been taking his eye off the ball trying to explain this stuff to people, things would have been worse. here's what you've gt to admire about this president. that stimulus package was as big as it could have been. you've never had an economic crisis like this. two wars, an ecological crisis going on, and a lockstep opposition from the opposition. the president put forward ideas that republicans liked until he adopted them. they said he wanted tax cuts. he put them in there. they stopped him on that. they said they wanted individual responsibility in the health care system. he went with that and then he took them to the supreme court. you have lockstep opposition from the republicans, and yet and still -- and the last thing i want to say is, he volunteered to be the captain of the "titanic" after it hit the iceberg. >> that's a good point. >> and we're still floating. >> mort, van says president obama volunteered to be the captain of the "titanic." let's look -- forget history for now, let's look at the current stuff. let's look at a poll of what people think about how things are going today. 43% think that things are going well today. this is a new cnn opinion research corporation poll. in february, mort, 40% thought so. in december, 30% thought so. and last august, which as you recall, was a tough time, we were dealing with the debt debacle, we were dealing with what looked like very serious problems in europe, 24% thought so. are you out of step with the reality here about the way things are going? i mean win talk to ceos every day. they don't sound as negative as you do, and you're a democrat! >> yes, well, first place, corporate america is doing a lot better than the economy is at home. why? because they have controls over their costs. one of the ways they control their costs, a, they let go of a lot of people, and b, they're not hiring. which is why the hiring numbers are so weak. >> but the hiring numbers have been extremely strong. >> no, the hiring numbers have been very, very -- it's the weakest recovery in terms of hiring that we've had from any recovery. >> come on. >> it's not even close in the terms of number of jobs that are created. >> if you don't like what this administration has done, what is the answer? >> if i had one thing to do, and assuming i had the power to implement it, which i think is appropriate, i would revise the tax code. if you revise the tax code by eliminating a lot of the special provisions that good lobbyists have been able to get for all kinds of different interest groups, you would have the following -- you would have lower corporate rates and lower individual tax rates. it would stimulate both the individual and business. >> i have a tax code in this building, it is 173 pages long. republicans didn't fix it either. >> i'm not justifying the republicans. >> i get you're saying you're frustrated with how things have gone, but why is this on president obama as opposed to the republicans who have never fixed the tax code and democrats, by the way, who have never fixed the tax code? >> there is a very good reason. this country relies on the president, not on the congress. we all know the way that congress works. it takes presidential leadership. in 1983, ronald reagan, when he was president, and tip o'neill, the speaker of the house, reformed social security. why? because he had relationships with tip o'neill and the two of them worked together to get it doe done. this president has no relationship with the congress. if you go to the congress, and i just did, there is absolutely no relationship. the senate leader, mitch mcconnell, with a front page story in the ne"the new york t, had not had a private meeting with the president in 18 months. >> i'm not sure if mitch mcconnell had insisted on that private meeting, if he would have got pinpoint we're partisan to the extreme in a way we have not seen possibly ever. >> and that is part of the problem. but the presidential leadership we need to get out of this mess did not come from this president and a lot of people believe that. >> i disagree with that. i disagree with that. >> i supported him, i endorsed him. i'm telling you, it's just a disappointment. >> van disagrees with you, but van, we'll have a little more chance to talk about this. mort, always a pleasure to have ow on the show. mort zuckerman is the editor in chief of u."u.s. news & world report." van, stay where you are. the woman in charge of protecting your bank account during the financial crisis now says it is time for the federal reserve to declare victory in this recovery, putting her directly at odds with fed chairman ben bernanke. >> i'm declaring victory -- i think it's a little premature to declare victory. >> shelia bair makes her case on why it's time to loosen the grip and let interest rates rise, coming up next. every communications provider is different but centurylink is committed to being a different kind of communications company. ♪ we link people and fortune 500 companies nationwide and around the world. and we will continue to free you to do more and focus on what matters. it doesn't look risky. i mean, phil, does this look risky to you? 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[ female announcer ] only flood insurance covers floods. visit floodsmart.gov/risk to learn your risk. this week, the federal reserve once again said it plans to leave interest rates at a record low until late 2014. just as it has for the past four years. but there are those who say that now is the time to start raising interest rates. well, if we do that, here's what it means for you. the pros are that you get a better return on your savings and some of your nonstock investments. plus, there's less chance of inflation, which really worries central banks. now, the cons is that the interest rate on your mortgage or other loans could go up, and some banks can get discouraged from lending. shelia bair is the former head of the fdic, the federal deposit insurance corporation. when our country was in the thick of the financial crisis, she was tasked with shoring up our banks, a job she did very well. now, she wrote in "fortune" this week that if the fed does not raise rates soon, america could be heading for another bubble. fed chairman ben bernanke was asked about this in congress, and he responded. >> i think that keeping interest rates low is still appropriate for our economy. as for the bond bubble, interest rates are low for a lot of reasons. they include monetary policy, of course, but they also include a weak economy, low inflation expectations, and safe haven demands for u.s. treasuries. so, of course, interest rates will arise at some point. we hope that they do, because that would be an indication that the economy is recovering and strengthening. >> if interest rates rise, it's an indication that things are recovering and strengthening. shelia bair joins me again. always a pleasure to see you. >> thank you, ali. >> when we talk about gdp, it's the broadest measure we use, it may not be as effective as other things, but the broadest measure we use. back at the end of 2008, the economy, the gdp contracted by 8.9%. after that, it was 6.7 and then 0.7%. then it started to grow. we got up to 3.9%. it was very strong. then into the 2s and 2011, we had sort of a dodgy year. now we've got brand-new numbers that show that the economy is growing at an annual basis of 2.2%. so it's going to be 2.2% bigger in 2012 than it was in 2011. that's not much, particularly when you compare it to a lot of other nations. so is your idea that interest rates should go up a signal that we think you're okay? you're confident in this recovery and we're not going to be set back again? >> i think it is a signal that this has gone on long enough and there's only so much you can accomplish through monetary policy. our economy is still struggling, but the way to fix that is through fiscal policy, better leadership by the president and congress to fix a tax code to provide some certainty to business about what the future trajectory of our economy will be. there's only so much the fed can accomplish with monetary policy, and keeping rates extremely low, near-zero rates, does create inflationary pressures later on. there are risks that are involved in this. and i just don't think we're getting much bang for the buck on it. i do think it's time -- i've said i think the fed should let markets bump interest rates up a little bit and not intervene, if that's the way the market wants to go, and i think that would be a healthy thing for the economy. it could have some positive effects too. you mentioned that it could help savers. you know, it might actually help the mortgage market, because i think some people are on the sidelines now with all the compress inventory in housing. but if they know mortgage rates are going to start going up, they might come in to lock in those low rates. >> you might be worrying about home price dropsi ining another but if your mornitgage goes fro 5% to 6%, over the life of a mortgage. but right now the federates are around zero. the prime rate's around 3%. a 30-year fixed mortgage, if you put 20% down and have good credit, can be had for 4%. what's the right amount of interest? what's the kind of interest that controls inflation, allows savers to save, but doesn't crush the economy? >> well, i think you need to have the market making -- is part of the decision making on this. right now the fed is controlling everything. you know, when i go out and speak to investor groups, the first thing i hear is, are we going to have qe3. so much economic activity is being geared towards what the fed is going to do versus what is our broader economic situation and our fiscal situation. i think another reason it would be healthy for interest rates to bump up a little bit is to send a signal to congress in the administration, frankly, that they need to get our fiscal house in order. a little bond market discipline, i think would, perhaps, be helpful there. so i would like to see the market have a little bit more of a say on what interest rate the appropriate interest rate level is. but clearly, our fiscal situation is very troubled, and it does not justify these extremely low yields on treasuries right now. >> shelia bair, always a pleasure to talk to you. thanks so much for joining us. she's now a former adviser with the pew charitable trusts. coming up on "your $$$$$," how president obama's re-election bid may hinge more on what happens in europe than what happens in ohio. that's next. dr. gilmore. i mean he could teach. he was there for us, even if we needed him in college. you could call him, you had his phone number. he was just focused on making sure we were gonna be successful. he would never give up on any of us. on december 21st polar shifts will reverse the earth's gravitational pull and hurtle us all into space. which would render retirement planning unnecessary. but say the sun rises on december 22nd, and you still need to retire. td ameritrade's investment consultants can help you build a plan that fits your life. we'll even throw in up to $600 when you open a new account or roll over an old 401(k). so who's in control now, mayans? i tell you what i can spend. i do my best to make it work. i'm back on the road safely. and i saved you money on brakes. that's personal pricing. could europe's economic crisis push our fragile recovery into reverse? europe's unemployment numbers are downright alarming. spain's jobless rate, now above 24%, sparking riots there this week, and its debt has just been downgraded. greece, portugal, and ireland all above the 10% mark, in terms of unemployment. meanwhile, austerity measures in france haven't won president nicolas sarkozy many friends. he's facing a runoff election in one week. greek voters crushed by cutbacks also head to the ballot box on the same day, may 6th, and could throw their leaders out. there's a lot at stake here for the european economy and ultimately the global economy, ultimately the u.s. economy. nina del santos joins me now from london. she's my co-anchor on "world business today." jim bittermann joins me now from paris. jim, let's start with you. as the architect of europe's recovery plan, frempnch preside sarkozy has proven to be unpopular. is that why he's facing this runoff with a relatively little-known socialist. >> i think that's right, ali. the fact is he's running about eight points behind in the public opinion polls right now with only about nine days to go before the election. so i think, yes, the economy is the big issue. there's no question about it. people talk about unemployment. he just got some more bad news yesterday. the unemployment numbers are up here, almost touching 10%, and they're at the highest level since 1999. that's one big concern and the other is buying power, which many citizens feel has gone down. conditioned afford the things they used to afford here. so, yes, i think the economy is the big issue as far as many of the french people are concerned, alex. >> it's a point that shelia bair just made with me, that the inflation is the big concern, because it erodes your buying power. nina, for decades, france has been a major global economy. greece has not been a major global economy for about 2,000 years. why do we care so much about the situation in greece? tell us what's happening and why it worries us? >> it has been a member of the eurozone. although according to recent comments made by the germany faction of the european central bank that governs monetary policy across the eurozone, while perhaps greece shouldn't have been part of the party anyway. as you just said, will be heading to the polls on the same day of the french elections, perhaps being a little bit eclipsed by that, because of course france is a major economy, the world's fifth largest. but what they're going to be facing in greece, whoever gets in here, ali, will be not just a specter of the worst recession that they've seen in recent memory, with also one of the most painful ones, but the specter of ungovernability here. because a lot of people are saying they're going to be heading to the polls to punish the politicians who got them into these situations in the first place. >> for comparison's purpose, let's look at the major countries in the world. gdp is the broadest measure we have of an economy. what you're looking for is how much gdp goes up by or down by in a given year. these are the predictions for this year