Transcripts For CNNW Anderson Cooper 360 20120330 : comparem

Transcripts For CNNW Anderson Cooper 360 20120330



minute drive from the scene to the station. that means that george zimmerman haf only remained at the shooting site for 20 minutes or less, being treated, police say, for injuries to his nose and scalp. this is a second angle captured by police surveillance cameras of his arrival. in it, in the original view, you see zimmerman, hands cuffed behind his back, getting out of the patrol car. as some pointed out, he needs no assistance and doesn't appear to be injured or a traumatized man. some have launched on to this moment as a patrolman touches zimmerman's jacket, looks down at it, and wipes it on his pants. was it blood, dirt, something else? there's no way of knowing at this point. then there's the moment when an officer checks the back of zimmerman's head. zimmerman told police that trayvon martin punched him in the face and slammed his head, as zimmerman's father says, on to the sidewalk, on to concrete. doesn't look like a serious injury, but is there some evidence of some kind of head injury? perhaps. there's a moment caught from this new angle in which zimmerman briefly leans against the wall before being taken to be questioned. is it evidence he's woozy from his injuries, or just the picture of somebody resting briefly after being hunched over, handcuffed in the back of a car? it's hard to say. what's especially hard to see in this tape is blood, either on zimmerman's shirt or jacket and there appears to be none on his shirt. one of the officers on the scene reports that zimmerman was bleeding from his nose and the back of his head and was treated on the scene by paramedics. as we show you this new video that we've slowed down, of police leading zimmerman through the corridors, decide for yourself, what to make of it. what we don't yet know, did police photograph zimmerman to document his injuries, or will this grainy video be the best and only visual evidence to support or refute his claims of self-defense? what we do have tonight is a new set of eyes and a new voice. only on this program tonight, someone who saw the shooting and the aftermath. we're not disclosing this person's identity and as you'll hear, we've distorted the person's voice. we spoke earlier. can you tell me what you saw and what you heard the night trayvon martin was killed? >> well, it would have been to starting with hearing voices, but not seeing, and then after the voices, opening a window and then seeing with two men or two people on the ground. one on top of each other. >> you say you heard voices. what made you pay attention to the voices? were they loud? were they argumentative? what kind of voices? >> yes. at first i heard the voices with my window closed. and pretty much back in that area, people walk their dogs. and you'll hear people talking. and you can hear them very clearly, even when they're not talking loud. soy thought it was rather loud, but i had just shut my window, because it had just started pouring down rain. and i thought, oh, my gosh, who's out there walking their dog in the rain? and i didn't look, and then i went in and did something else and heard the loud voices again. and i thought, let me see who that is, and i opened up my window with the screen, and yes, it definitely was a very loud, predominant voice. as i kind of -- i couldn't hear the words, but it was like, okay, this is not a regular conversation. you know, this is someone aggressively, you know, yelling at someone. >> and how much time do you estimate had passed between the first time you heard the voices and the second time when you opened your window? >> well, i don't think it was that long, but i definitely would say that there was a gap of time, and the reason for that is because they kept on arguing, i probably would have opened the window the first time. >> i'm sorry. you say you went and did something else, that didn't take a long time? >> not at all. but there was a time of not hearing the voices. >> after you opened your window, after hearing the voices the second time, what did you observe? what did you hear? >> i saw two men on the ground, one on top of each other, obviously thinking, okay, something really horrible was with happening. and at that point, not looking out the window, i heard the yell for help, one yell for help, and then i heard another, as i described, an excruciating kind of yell. it didn't even sound like a help, it just sounded so painful. but i wasn't watching out the window during that. and then the next time i looked out the window, there were two men on the grass, one on top of each other. i kind of felt like that -- i couldn't see a lot of movement, it was very dark, but i felt like they were scuffling. and then i heard a gunshot. which, to me, were more like pops, than they were like a bang. >> you say "gunshots," plural, was there more than one to your memory, or was there just one? >> well, the sound that i had from where i was walking, it was more like a pop, and it definitely was more than one pop noise. so i don't know if it was an echo or anything else, but it definitely made more than one pop. >> and i know you said it was dark. i don't want to ask you how far away you were, because i don't want to give any identifying sense of where you were, but were you able to observe who was on top, who was on bottom? were you able to see faces or any details of the people scuffling? >> no. just that it was dark. i mean, the only reason i can say, if i would have to say, who do you think it was, i would have to say only the larger man, because after the larger man got off, then there was a boy, that is obviously now dead, on the ground, facing down. >> what did you observe after the shot? >> as i said, it was dark, but after the shot, obviously, someone, a man got up, and it was kind of like that period of him, i can't say i watched him get up, but maybe only within a couple of seconds or so, then he was walking towards where i was watching. and i could see him a little bit clearer. you see that it was a hispanic man, and he was, you know, he didn't appear hurt or anything else. he just kind of seemed very, you know, very worried or whatever. walked, like, on the sidewalk at that point, and his hand up to his forehead. and then another man came out. >> and that would be a police officer? >> no, actually -- >> so there was another person with a flashlight. >> yes. >> do you know -- did you actually see the gunshot? were you looking at -- were you looking at the struggle when the shot went off, or were you not looking at the struggle when the shot went off? >> i was looking when the shot went off. >> so did the shot go off during a struggle? >> i can't say if there was a lot of movement or not. i mean, the first time i looked, i could see two men that kind of seemed like they were scuffling, but i couldn't see that clearly. i wouldn't say it was a lot of movement, when i heard the pop noise and the gunshots. >> did you see a flash? >> no. >> earlier, you had said, it was two people on the ground, i believe, when you first saw what you described as two people on each other. when the shot went off, were both people on the ground as well? >> yes. >> and one was still on top of the other? >> yes. >> did you see the person being shot? did you see -- the person you now know as trayvon martin being shot? did you see him fulling back? >> when you're looking -- a person on top of each other, you can't really see the person underneath. >> so you -- so just so i'm clear, you believe the person who shot was on top? you believe the shooter was on top? >> i can't really say, because it was just so dark, but, i mean, i'm just saying, in your head, you're thinking, when you see -- when all of this is now a couple seconds later, you see that person that's alive walk away, you know, you obviously think, okay, mhe got up and he walked away, but the other person is still laying there face down. >> but it's not clear to you whether he was on top and got up after shooting trayvon martin, or if he was on the bottom of the struggle and shot and trayvon martin fell or slid off him or he slid out from trayvon martin? you're not clear? >> i did not see any of that, like, who slid. just kind of from watching as they're both down there and hearing, watching the shot, then, you know, reminded me of the darkness, because there were roof lights on. i would just say a little bit of that time, from the time he got up, which isn't very much time, probably a couple of seconds, you know, then i saw him walking, saw it was a hispanic man. i mean, i'm just saying, you only think, okay, the boy, in my mind, i think that the boy's laying down, on the ground, face down. and the other person got up. you know, i'm thinking that it would be, you know, but i can't say for sure, because i didn't actually watch him get up. >> was the -- you saw, essentially, two different struggles, you said. or two different -- you saw one initially and then you saw a second one. were they both in the exact same location? >> yes. >> and was that location grass or was it sidewalk or concrete? do you know? >> it was grass. >> it was grass. was there a sidewalk anywhere nearby here, concrete, or was this all on grass or ground? >> well, there was grass on both side with a sidewalk down the middle. but they were definitely closer to the area where it was all grass. >> and to your memory, george zimmerman, after the shooting, did he appear injured to you? did you see any blood or did you see him walking differently? >> not that i know how he walks, just that, you know, it was kind of slow, you're thinking, wow, i'm looking at the person who just shot someone. it was dark, you can see from your side view, that it was an hispanic man. and no, as far as like him seeing any blood or anything else, no. just from the side view. >> i know this is very difficult for you to talk about, and i appreciate you taking the time to do that. thank you. much more on this story at cnn.com and more coming up in just a moment on what this tape, a police report, and all the rest have to say about what really happened the night george zimmerman shot trayvon martin and what should happen now. we'll get reaction from a martin family attorney. and also talk to former police officer, lou palumbo, along with our legal panel, mark geragos and marcia clarke. follow me on twitte twitter @andersoncooper. 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[whoosh, clang] you need lifelock, the only identity theft protection company that now monitors bank accounts for takeover fraud. lifelock: relentlessly protecting your identity. call 1-800-lifelock or go to lifelock.com today. our breaking news tonight, an eyewitness coming forward, talking only to "360" who saw the shooting of trayvon martin and the aftermath. what did you observe after the shot? >> like i said, it was dark, but after the shot, obviously, someone, a man, got up and it was kind of like that period of him, i can't say i actually watched him get up, but maybe within a couple seconds or so, then he was walking with towards where i was watching and i could see him a little bit clearer, and see that it was an hispanic man and he was, you know, he didn't appear hurt or anything else, he just kind of seemed ve very, you know, very worried or whatever, walked on the sidewalk at that point, and his hand up to kind of his forehead. and another man came out with a flashlight. joining us now is police veteran lou palumbo, currently he's director of the private security firm, elite group limited, also, daryl parks, mike geragos, and marcia clark. daryl parks, i wonder as you listen to this new eyewitness's account of what happened, of what this person saw, what's your reaction? does it answer any questions for you, raise any new questions for you? >> it answers a lot of questions for me, anderson. it's very clear that this particular witness saw what happened, and in the early part of his statement, he clearly indicated that the person he saw on top was the gentleman who did the shooting. so it's rather clear that mr. zimmerman was the shooter. he saw him, although he has some parts he doesn't recall quite as well, the first part of his statement that i see is that he saw trayvon shot on this very unfortunate night. the other part that really strikes out to me is he seems to not see any apparent injuries from this particular altercation that mr. zimmerman claims that he suffered. but thirdly. although this is my first time hearing this statement, it seems very clear that zimmerman's statement about trayvon following him back to the truck is totally untrue, because from this witness' statement, all of the interaction happened in one particular area. so i think mr. zimmerman is going to be arrested very, very soon. >> i should also just point out, we've altered this person's voice just at their request, because they don't want their identity known. mark geragos, when you listen to this account, does it raise anything new for you? >> well, first of all, anderson, it was a great direct examination by you, kudos to you. second of all, this is exactly why prosecutors cringe. i bet you when you ask marcia about this, this should be a prosecutor's worst nightmare. there is so much fodder in there now for the defense to talk about, if she is indeed arrested, if zimmerman is arrested, for them to play around with now, i can't even tell you. you could spend 45 minutes to this witness and use it to your advantage if you're defending zimmerman. >> marcia, what about that? >> mark's right. the more we have witnesses being interviewed by non-police sources and interviewed under circumstances like this, the more opportunity there is to talk about inconsistencies, to get additional statements and to show the conflicts between them. this is a very, it seems to me, honest witness who is trying to tell you to the best of his ability what he saw, but any normal person is going to tell a story different ways at different times. you don't say it the same way every time. a defense attorney will have a field day with that. however, it was not entirely clear to me, although i wanted it to be, that the person on top was the person who did the shooting. it may be very well so. that may be the case. i think we're going to need to do a lot more investigation. i think the gunshot residue on the bodies and on the clothing will tell you a lot more about the angle of the shot, which will be critical to this investigation. but the fact that george zimmerman stood up, walked away with no apparent difficulty, no apparent bleeding, seems to fly in the face of the indications in the police report that he was -- that he said his nose was broken, his head was beaten in. yes, there may have been some minor injuries due to the scuffle, but what's being described by this witness indicates that it was no major struggle. very likely the one that was crying for help was trayvon. very likely the one who was being pinned down was trayvon. and the fact that this witness said that trayvon martin was face down when george zimmerman stood up is another indication that it was george zimmerman who did the attacking and that it was a scuffle initiated by him and ended by him. >> we should also point out, lou, that another eyewitness interviewed by other news organizations, local news, have said that that eyewitness, who's calling himself john or was referred to as john, says that he saw george zimmerman yelling out for help. but, again, trayvon martin's family insists that it's his voice on the tape calling out for help. what did you make of what this eyewitness said? zpl >> i have to agree with the first gentleman. i think for mr. zimmerman, it's quite problematic at this point. because, a, i would like to see the autopsy report on this young man. i would like to hear what zimmerman's accounting was when he discharged the weapon. did he tell the police he was on the top or did he tell them he was on the bottom? if he was on the bottom, where did he shoot the kid? was with it an abdominal hit? because that would be possibly consistent with pleading from the mouth. >> there should be forensic evidence for all of this. >> and i kind of spoke to this yesterday. where's the autopsy and where's the forensics on this? i want to know the distance when the shot was fired, the angle of entry, the position of the body. this has a lot of questions here, but i think that this punches some holes in zimmerman's allegation that he was being beaten to the point where he felt that it was appropriate to use deadly physical force. >> the witness i talked to, mr. parks, said this was occurring on grass, on the ground, not on a sidewalk, so if somebody's head was being hit into the ground as mr. zimmerman indicated or his family has indicated, it wasn't on to a sidewalk, it was on to the grass, on to ground. mr. zimmerman's father gave an interview and i want to play what he says happened in the confrontation between his son and trayvon martin. >> at that point, he was punched in the nose. his nose was broken. and he was knocked to the concrete. trayvon martin got on top of him and just started beating him, in the face, in his nose, hitting his head on the concrete. after nearly a minute of being beaten, george was trying to get his head off the concrete, trying to move with trayvon on him into the grass. in doing so, his firearm was shown. trayvon martin said something to the effect of, you're going to die now or you're going to die tonight, something to that effect. he continued to beat george and at some point, george pulled his pistol and did what he did. >> so you're saying that trayvon martin verbally threatened his life? >> yes. >> mr. parks, it does seem to contradict what the witness we just talked to, that said that the altercation took place in the grass. whether that means the witness saw it at a later time or was simply wrong or mr. zimmerman was wrong, what do you make of what he said? >> well, i think that he's clearly wrong. number one, the witness has clearly seen that they were in the grassy area, both altercations happened in the grassy area. but also, though, the real problem is that mr. zimmerman's father says that all of this happened on the walk. we now have pictures of mr. zimmerman walking into the police station, and you see no injuries that would have come from abrasions on a sidewalk. so clearly he's wrong. and this witness is right, because we don't see any injuries that would have come from a sidewalk had all of this great physical force happened on a sidewalk. >> mark geragos, do you put a lot of stock into the tapes now from the police station, where at least in those take place -- >> only if he wasn't treated at the scene. if he was treated at the scene and they clean

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