giuliani's statements and involvement in the ukraine policy, yes. >> okay. so when it genuinely became, you know, a concern for you, what did you do to either engage sondland and volker and perry, giuliani -- by the way, have you ever met rudy giuliani during these times relevant? >> not during the times relevant. mr. giuliani visited ukraine one time when i was there, i think in 2007 or 2008. that's the only time i've met him. >> so you've never had any communications with rudy giuliani as part of these irregular channel business -- >> that is correct. that is correct. >> okay. anyway, getting back to my question, did you try to engage brektbul or the secretary during this time period?