there to talk to him about getting the military out, but we're going to see a long program of destabilization to keep ukraine from moving too far west and he's determined to do it and at the same time it's clear the ukrainians most of them want to move west and there's a long way to go with this and he's got a lot of instruments in his power and he's threatened also to keep the military pressure on if need be. >> and carl, is it clear what the white house's next move is? >> i think, yes. that what you're hearing now about the off ramp to get some military disengagement, as much calm as possible. but there are no allusions in the white house. putin is going to somehow fold up his tent and take all the non-military tools in his tent and put them aside. he is going to fight this thing to the last because, look. he can't have a russian empire