of jehovah's witnesses. the uk chancellor, jeremy hunt, has spoken to the governor of the bank of england about silicon valley bank uk, which is heading for insolvency after the failure of its parent company in the us. you are watching bbc news. now, politicalthinking with nick robinson. what makes the daughter of immigrants willing to risk the wrath of liberal britain by warning that we face an "invasion" of migrants, that up to 100 million could come here, that those who oppose her plan to stop the boats aren't real patriots? indeed, that they're betraying britain. the home secretary, suella braverman, is loved by some for the stance she's taking. she's loathed by others. my guest on political thinking has toured the news studios all week. this is not another news interview. it is not an interrogation about that policy. it is a conversation, as this whole series is, about what shapes her political thinking. what shapes her views? what shapes her values? suella braverman, thanks forjoining me on political thinking. thank you, nick. you have had a lively week, haven't you? do you relish the rows you cause? do you like the controversies? do you like the smell of political gunpowder? well, listen, i think it comes with the territory of being home secretary, of fronting up policy relating to migration. issues at the home office are very emotive. they relate to security and safety, people's wellbeing. particularly migration, it provokes very strong views. it's more than that though, isn't it? you had punch—ups on brexit. you were the leader of what we'll hear later on was called the spartan army of rebels against theresa may. there's something in you, i think, that likes the fight. well, listen, i... that's not by design, i would add. when you use that language, you know it's going to provoke. when you read that word "invasion" in the house of commons, you're not telling me you didn't sort of pull out the pin on the hand grenade and lob it in, knowing that the labour party'd go mental? i don't control how critics might respond to me, actually. you know, ever since i started my political career, i've aimed to work collaboratively with people. you know, work constructively, stand up for the british people. i see my role as being honest. so does it hurt when you're portrayed in the way that you are sometimes portrayed? i mean, i could — but i won't — say many of the things that are said about you on social media, because they're painful, they're cruel, they're abusive. i guess the most polite i can say is you're portrayed as cruella. now, is that you? or is there a bit of who thinks, "they don't know me at all, that isn't me"? well, if you were to ask my family and friends, they'd probably say i'm, um... what would they say? i don't think cruella would be the term that they all use. i'm a bit of a softy when it comes to my children, and with my family and friends. they can get away with quite a lot with me at home. so, no, it doesn't feel reflective of the reality. but, you know, i'm also not in this job necessarily to be liked. making difficult decisions is not going to please everybody, all of the time. doing the right thing is sometimes really difficult, but it doesn't mean you mustn't do the right thing. it's fascinating to hear you talk about the way your family and friends see you. do you consciously put on your armour when you leave home, the people who love you, and put on a game face? "right, i'm the toughie. "this is the persona i'm now going to put across." i think there is an element of that. i think the way i've seen it is if, you know... people are going to get upset. people are going to react sometimes in a very kind of pronounced way. that's not a reason to shy away from saying things or doing what's necessary. and the brickbats, and the personal abuse, and the backlash, you know, i'm pretty steely. i'm pretty determined. you know, my work as a barrister put me and threw me into confrontation on a daily basis, i think i've kind of got the mettle to withstand it. and do you think you are more of a target, and there's no delicate way of putting this, because you've got a brown skin? on this issue? honestly, no, iactually don't see it through the lens of my skin color. no, you don't. ijust wonder if other people, because i think there are people who think, how can the daughter of immigrants, how can the daughter of someone who had to flee persecution — and we'll talk about your father — how can she think the things she thinks? erm, it's really not the way that i frame the debate. i frame the debate through fairness. fairness, and equity and compassion. and i take a firm line on migration because i see the abuse of our rules. i see peoplejumping the queue. i see criminality. well, let's talk about your father, because you often do. you did this week. you did in your maiden speech when you became a member of parliament. you said, and it's quite a moving description, "on a cold february morning in 1968, a young man, not yet 21, stepped off a plane at heathrow airport, nervously folding away his one way ticket from kenya. he had no family, no friends, and was clutching only his most valuable possession, his british passport." are you moved by that story? yeah. i'm welling up just hearing you read it back to me, actually. i think about the vulnerability of that young man, my dad. and i think about the disturbance that his whole family, and the turbulence that he went through being, you know, evicted from his country, effectively. he didn't actually want to come to the united kingdom. he loves kenya. he loves africa, if you talk to him. and he came here reluctantly, but he didn't have a choice. the african asians were treated in kenya, and uganda later, as... it's not exact parallels, like thejews in europe, they were entrepreneurs who were blamed for stealing jobs, stealing money and turfed out. what sort of reception did he get when he came here? did he tell you about that? yeah. he has spoken to me about his experiences in 1960s, early �*70s london, and it's fair to say our country's made huge progress. he's told me about a story when he was in the pub with his friends as a young man upon his arrival and being chased down the road by skinheads. and i can imagine the language they used. yeah, exactly. the p word. right. and he's been on the receiving end of verbal abuse. and i think about my experience growing up in london in the 1980s and onwards and not coming across anything near as aggressive, and intimidating and harassing. and so i really feel a sense of pride about race relations in the united kingdom and where we are as a nation, and how we're comfortable... that year that he fled kenya and came here was the year of enoch powell's river of blood speech. there were warnings of people being betrayed. ofjobs under threat, warnings that communities couldn't cope. warnings that school places were under threat. of course, britain was different. of course you're not enoch powell. but you understand why some people hear the echoes in the language used and shiver. well, i've been thinking about this this week, actually, in light of the debate that we're in. and what it reminds me of is the brexit debate. and what i see is the left, and it's generally the left, they resort to, you know, framing the position that we're taking on migration, which i describe as firm but compassionate, as being far—right, as being extremist, as being racist. and they they do that in quite a lazy way. i don't think there's any comparison to our measures to what happened... no, but the debate isn't about measures. ..in history. even gary lineker, you always, when you're asked about gary lineker, refer to the measure. he wasn't talking about measures. he was talking about language. again, i would disagree. i think what happens, and what i'm seeing is that we're seeing a rerun of brexit. brexit supporters were typecast as being racist, and bigoted and extremist. it's a losing technique. it's not worked. ok, but it takes two to polarise. the other thing that seems to me that comes through your story, your immigrant story, your parent's story is patriotism. so, your dad comes from kenya. he's of indian origin. your mum comes from mauritius to work in the nhs. she's of indian origin, she's a nurse. and you have said in the past, "i'm ferociously proud of britain." it's a very braverman word. "ferociously proud." why ferociously proud? oh, because i admire, i deeply and profoundly admire what britain has done for the world over centuries. and i go back to my parents, their experience of growing up underthe empire, loving britain from afar as children. my auntie and uncle fought with the british army in egypt during world war ii. britain brought a lot to mauritius and kenya. were you the sort of house where you had pictures of the queen up on the walls, did you celebrate the big royal day? yeah, definitely. and then i think about my parents�* experience coming here. i mean, i think that's fundamental. it was britain that gave them security and opportunity, and welcomed them with open arms. you know, on the whole, my parents were integrated and, you know, welcomed so, so warmly. and we've really played a large part, and a meaningful part, and felt a meaningful part of british society. and then i think about my experience growing up. i've been blessed with a great education. i've been... i've never experienced racism. i feel very proud to be serving in the british parliament. you've never experienced racism ? i wouldn't say i have. nobody�*s ever said anything? listen, i've heard... the word has been used in the street now and again. but, you know, i turn the other cheek and i carry on. people will say all kinds of cruel things. i get a lot of cruel things. i get a lot of cruel things said to me today. sure. but that's fascinating. your desire, it seems to me, is to say i've never experienced it. and when i say, "well, have you?" you say, "well, i have heard some things." do you think people who do talk about racism, who do worry about the legacy of empire, do you think they're turning themselves into victims? no. i mean, people will have different views. i mean, this is what's very interesting about looking at history. you once said "i get very saddened by this apology and shame promulgated by the left. commenced by the collective guilt that started under tony blair." well, i do. i do feel very sad when people want to cancel our history and deny the good that britain did. you know, where we are seeing in universities, or in literature or, you know, statues they want to erase what happened in the past. and i find that very sad. i think the good and the bad needs to be presented for future generations to learn from. but isn't it possible that you had a particularly good experience of an immigrant family? your dad did have a british passport. he got here just before the rules were changed. so it's possible, i guess, that he might not have got a british passport if it had been one year later. you did have a good and successful upbringing. where's the empathy for people who didn't? i'm not denying that there are still challenges. you know, people are, you know, people are harassed. they're intimidated. there's still discrimination in the world, everywhere. so that's why we have laws in place to prevent that kind of behavior. what about politics? let's talk about the politics at home, because alongside her majesty the queen on the wall, in your household, in the fernandes household, which is, of course, your maiden name, was there just... and i don't know the answer, before i ask this question, would there have been a painting of margaret thatcher on the wall as well? well, listen, my mother was inspired by margaret thatcher, and that's why she joined the conservative party. what did it symbolise for her, why? well, actually, i think the other factor for my mother was, in the �*80s, there were a lot of strikes going on. and i was in a state school, a state primary school. and every thursday, often on a thursday, it was strike day. and i, as a six—year—old child, would love strike day because it meant i could stay at home and i'd have the undivided attention of my mum. my parents thought otherwise, and the militant unions and the industrial action became an unsustainable problem for my parents. and they did actually take the very difficult decision to take me out of a local state school and fund an education in the local independent school. i promised this wasn't a news interview, but you've very helpfully given me the headline "home secretary back strikes". when i was six. yeah. on a more serious point, i think people who don't know people who are involved in politics often fail to recognise that, for many people, politics is like family. their party is like their family. listening to you, ijust wonder if the conservative party became your tribe, the people you identify with, feel comfortable with, and part of your passion and anger is you want to fight for them? you want to have a punch—up with the other lot. well, i do... i mean, the conservative party did become a bit of an extension of our family. my father got involved to support my mother, campaigning. i got involved. i was dragged along to deliver leaflets. you got involved, you actually ran against her to be a candidate in a by election. that was the only thing in your life that i found truly extraordinary. did you apologise to your mother for running against her to be a tory candidate? no, we didn't quite run against each other, but she she did run for parliament in the 2003... in the 2001 general election. yeah, but you had to be persuaded to withdraw your name, didn't you, because you were running for the same seat? that's how it was written up, yeah. is that not true? well, i wasn't. .. i wasn't ever a contender against my mother. i wouldn't ever dare stand against my mum. if you had to have been kind of fighting the fight, would she have said, "well done, suella?" is that the sort of woman she was or would she have looked at you and gone, "what are you doing? this is my seat." no, no, no. she's very supportive. and listen, i'm serving as home secretary. you know, i wouldn't be able to do a lot of my work if it wasn't for my mum and dad and their support right now. now, when you do become a member of parliament, pretty quickly you're a rebel. you've joined what we now know as the erg. the boring title is the european research group. it was the rebels, pro brexiteers, if you like. rebels to start with, at least, now many of them are in the government. solve this puzzle. you're a student in france. you were on the erasmus scheme, something abolished, by the way, as a result of brexit, which many people love. i'm told you love french literature. how did suella braverman, the young woman loving life in france, become someone who wanted a political divorce with france? i am, and i've always been, an avowed francophile. i love the french. i love france. i love french culture. i love their literature, as you say. and i loved my time living in france. well, let's get back to the question, then. so, given all that, how can you feel with the passion that you felt it, you led a group that became known as the spartans, let's remind people they were called the spartans because the spartans refused to give in against the persians. they were the tiny battled warriors, embattled warriors who carried on fighting. what takes you from loving france to "we've got to get out of this terrible club?" i don't think the two are mutually exclusive at all. so, i can love france and be a eurosceptic. oh, sure, but i want to know how you made the journey. well, i think it was in part my legal experience. as a practising lawyer, i really saw how eu law maintained and had a dominance in our legal structures, in court. lord denning famously described eu law as flowing into the estuaries and the rivers, and there was no way to hold it back. the case law is very, very compelling to reflect the supremacy of eu law in the united kingdom. that's what we were subject to, as members of the eu. when i was newly elected, david cameron promised fundamental change to our... fundamental reform to our settlement. and when he came back at the beginning of 2016, with something that fell far short of fundamental reform, it was an open and shut case for me that i had to vote to leave the european union. steve baker, who is your ally in the european research group, now a minister, he talked very powerfully about the emotional toll brexit had taken on him. he obviously loathed the past few years. did it take a toll on you? it's definitely been challenging. i mean, i think the the vote on... the meaningful vote three, which is where the spartans held out and 28 of us rebelled against the terms of the withdrawal agreement. just to remind people, that's what eventually brought down theresa may. but it's also what eventually enabled brexit to be delivered under boris johnson. you know, that was a very difficult day and experience for me. and i think i speakfor many of my colleagues in that scenario. we were made, you know, there was a huge amount of pressure on us inside parliament to concede. we were portrayed as traitors. steve baker has said that he thought of conceding, he was going to give up. i'm sure everyone did. and then a friend... yeah, i knew it was you. it was you. you told him, "get some backbone, don't back down, steve." steve and i are very good friends, and we have been as supporters of each other over many, many years. in the words of mrs thatcher, you told him not to go all wobbly. and i mean, ithink that... i think that's called a non—denial. 0k. but what really reinforced my resolve was remembering the 17.4 million people who voted for brexit. sure. let's just bring our conversation to a close with a few last thoughts about the big issue of the week, about migration and what you're doing. you made very clear to me when i interviewed you on the today programme and others that you're not planning to get out of the european convention on human rights. i remember the last time there was a big row between strasbourg and britain, actually was under a labour government, over the issue of whether prisoners should have the vote. and, in the end, what happened is the government of the day went ahead and ignored the court. it's quite a tempting precedent, isn't it, for you? yes. the prisoner voting saga lasted about ten years. as i said, we are not withdrawing from the... these measures are not taking us out of the european convention on human rights. but you could learn from that. you could learn from that. well, i mean, ithink, again, there are important questions to be asked about whether the balance has been properly struck. we've seen with the application of the convention by the court, and i would say it's a court which is politicised, it is interventionist, and it doesn't always follow a process that we would recognise as being due process. for example, the rule 39 orders that were issued last summer. and in a whole range of policy areas, i think sometimes the jurisprudence from the strasbourg court is at odds with the will of parliament or british values more generally. let's end, in a way, where we began, because i think in a sense it's a focus of the week. and it's language, i'm afraid. you know the story about the email that was sent in your name. now, you say you didn't see it and you say you didn't sign it off. it said an "activist blob", including leftie lawyers, civil servants and the labour party had blocked your plans. why did someone writing that think you would believe that? you'd have to ask them. i didn't write that email. i didn't sign it off. i didn't see the email. but they did it. it was sent in eror. that is what you think, isn't it? you'd have to ask the author of the... have you ever said the word blob? i'v e. probably, i have used the word blob. ever complained about civil servants? listen, i actually, you know, you give me a good opportunity to put on record my thanks... now that wasn't the question. well, you've invited me to comment. because the people i know who know you say you criticise civil servants in private quite a lot of the time. well, actually, i've been working with hundreds of civil servants recently at the home office, and i've been incredibly impressed by their dedication, their expertise and their hard work. and i think we've got a very good cadre of civil servants at the home office... do you want to apologise to them? ..working incredibly hard to to deliver the programme on illegal migration, but also on policing and security. and i've been nothing but impressed by what i've seen. sorry, do you want to apologise, then? well, i've not sent that email. so that's no. that's fair enough. that was not written in my name and doesn't reflect my views. and the last thing on language, around what gary lineker�*s talked about, and i ask you because i think it is an important part of your background. you're married to someone who's jewish. do you, when you hear people making comparisons with the �*30s, pause or do you, in stark contrast, as some people do, say, how dare you make that comparison? well, i think it is, from a personal point of view, to hear that kind of characterisation, is offensive, because, as you said, my husband isjewish. my children are therefore directly descendant from people who were murdered in gas chambers during the holocaust. and my husband's family is very... you know, feels very keenly the impact of the holocaust, actually. and, you know, to kind of throw out those kind of flippant analogies diminishes the unspeakable tragedy that millions of people went through. and i don't think anything that is happening in the uk today can come close to what happened in the holocaust. so i find it a lazy and unhelpful comparison to make. maybe it's not flippant? maybe it is passion? like the passion you feel, theyjust disagree with you. well, i would never make those comparisons myself. and as i said, you know, we we saw it during brexit. i was called a nazi just for chairing the erg or being a brexit supporter. i think that it's an unhelpful way to frame the debate, which is actually focused on people's lives, compassion, control over our borders and, ultimately, fairness and what the british people want. final question, then. you say you love french poetry. is that how you escape all this? do you get some comfort by burying yourself in proust or listening to the music ofjacques brel? jacques brel? jacques brel is a fantastic musician. my goodness. have you got any to play now? no, no, no. you can sing it for us, if you like. or quote french poetry. quote some french poetry? there are lots of politicians who have sung on this podcast. there are. well, i could try. i could try some. ok, well... here we go. it's a bit melancholy, but it's a beautiful poem by paul verlaine. il pleure dans mon coeur, comme il pleut sur la ville. quelle est cette langueur qui penatre mon coeur? o bruit doux de la pluie, par terre et sur les toits. pour un coeur qui s�*ennuie, ole chant de la pluie! now there'll be some who know that. the first line in english, it rains.... "it rains in my heart like it rains in the town." "what is this pain that penetrates my heart? suella braverman, home secretary, thank you forjoining me on political thinking. thank you, nick. there will be, i'm sure, critics of the home secretary who find it hard to believe that her own father had to flee to this country from persecution, from africa. they'll find it hard to understand how she can empathise so much that she teared up when i read the words of her maiden speech, but shows not that much sign of empathising with people desperate to make their way across the channel. her explanation, i think, is clear. the values herfather and mother taught her of patriotism, of belief in the rule of law, in sticking to the rules, is what she thinks britain is all about. the reason there's a row this week is not everybody agrees. thanks for watching. hello, there. there's still lots of snow lying on the ground across northern hills of the uk, and, indeed, saturday afternoon we had a bit of fresh snowfall falling across north wales. the snow here, associated with the next weather system as it is starting to bump into some of that colder air that's been across the country today. overnight at night, generally, temperatures will be rising. it will become quite mild, and most of us will see rain for a time. but across the hills of northern england and scotland, a few centimetres of snow are possible, above 200 metres of elevation. and some of our highest hills, above 400 metres elevation, could see 5—10 centimetres. now, that is quite high up. so the risk of disruption is more limited. and as the milder air pushes in, the frost becomes constricted, really, to northern scotland by the end of the night. now, tomorrow morning should be a reasonable start with some spells of sunshine coming through. but, into the afternoon, it generally turns cloudier with outbreaks of rain arriving from the west. it will be a mild day. temperatures up to 1a degrees. that is going to thaw any lying snow pretty quickly. this is bbc news. i'm lukwesa burak with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. the bbc�*s director general, tim davie, says he won't resign but apologises for widespread disruption to the corporation's sports output today in the uk — after presenters and pundits walked out in support of the match of the day host, gary lineker. myjob is to serve licence fee payers and to deliver a bbc that is really focused on world—class, impartial, landmark output and i look forward to us resolving the situation, and i look forward to delivering that. the prime minsister rishi sunak said he hoped the controversy can be resolved but that it's a matter for the bbc, not the government.