have been handled, unbelievable shocking, and disgraceful. and finally, kind of nice. some says, my elderly father was really poorly a couple of weeks ago and couldn't find a bed for him in the hospital a difficult time wishing your dodge will. cardinal mar. john binds became an english sensation in june 1984 and the mitochondria stadium in real. when the young, what for the england forward tables do what you might, the whole brazilian seem to score a wonderful now in a hard to, to pick he question some of the accepted views on the wheel sources of racism in society. he explains his decision to alex john. bon sir, welcome to the alec salmon show. thank you. hey, john. assume refix evidence in front of the parliamentary committee was quite hot doing this week. when, what was your, what's your take on what seems to say? well, i don't know why people are surprised. i mean, being involved in sports and being involved in society for the last x amount of years. this is something that was a feature of, of, of life generally speaking anyway, particularly the sport. you know, we've been through it in football awe, we know about sledging and crickets. so while it may be surprising for a lot of people who aren't in those environments whereby in a lavish culture, this is what banter. that's what people may call, bounce reduced friends of mine, work for fords and 4 boxes on the line. and this is language that's used all the time even today. and i don't know why we're trying to make out that cricket or football is different than the rest of society. so this is something that, that, that black people understand um is a regular occurrence, a similar fake in these evidence e. so said luke, asian people get positions a prominence, but that sheila shut them up or is of the essence of truth in that as well. absolutely. i mean, i've always said that the answer is not to, to give ah marginalized people, be they black be they women, be that gay people positions of power and think that's going to change everything for the majority doesn't. what we have to do is we have to change the perception of the average back person. the average age is person, the average woman i was agent person. sorry. so um, but from our perspective in football, we believe and you hear it all the time that black people believe that the, the answer is to give them more positions of, of, of prominence where she's actually said that he knows a lot of saw the south asians who've been asked to, to, in the institutions to, to, to come on board and in many respects it is to shut them up. um, so that really isn't solution either, or is it impossible for someone in these circumstances to, to speak. i mean, the assume if it remembers the captain of culture a, the youngest captain of yours should, it should be said he was the captain. a yorkshire import simona accepted racist environment for some they say, hey, listen, i'm not taking this and, and what is that? is that too much to ask anybody to do what it depends on who that person is. because if you want to change it into the mental health issue and he can look at ben stokes, for example, who can take time out for mental health and see murphy can do that. and, and of course, may be a high profile football about how can the average person take time out? will the average person in the street be the asian black female take time out and say, i want support, i want to be heard. no, they can't say it's okay for an elite person to be able to do that. but this is not the answer for the average person because they will not be supported. and what's the goal from the men, the assuming the fix evidence was moving that as well as harling. and it was quite clear that even the come up hard and politicians on the committee was affected by the people he was naming and shaming left perspective. but some of them, no doubt with bad people, but as he made the point, some of them of good people that didn't realize what they will do and is that possible in today's society, people don't realize what the weather behaving in a racist man. absolutely. 100 percent martin luther king said in 1963 that is a shallow on the standing of racial vice by good people, which is the bigger problem than the told misunderstanding by bad people. and we assume because we wouldn't ratio be somebody sexually abuse a woman or beat up somebody who's gay. therefore when all races, sex or homophobic in any way, we all discriminate and until we accept it within ourselves to a certain degree, nothing will change. all we lose point the finger wants to get caught, like gary balance for example, or whoever else gets caught in football, there's pete the bears, and is liam neeson. and we assume that that's the solution to the problem. it's not we have to canal cells because we are all culpable. the, you know, i was in the less ton to your boot. when you said the uncomfortable truth about racism. what was the uncomfortable but that you were driving at? don't come from the truth is that we are all races to a certain extent. of course, if you're black and can be race, it was on the black people. however, how would you feel about and i wasn't being disingenuous, but i know that of course race is a big topic. so it's really, it's an intellectual book. it's about discrimination. so it's really the uncomfortable truth about discrimination. and the fact is, we all discriminate to a certain degree, and until we accept it within ourselves, nothing will change. and that's what the essence of the book is on. the uncomfortable truth is not as simple as a black and white situation because you do have, luckily from the jamaica point of view. how do we feel about about trinidad ians or nigeria to gannons, or elite middle class jamaicans? as i am, i'm up towards black working class jamaicans, so there is discrimination that as well. so it's not about racism. it's really about discrimination. and most of us wouldn't let understand about member many years ago when i was leading us a scottish bed to get the commonwealth games against nigeria. i started off with the assumption that all of the, the black countries would be supporting nigeria to look in. eames came up and said, there's no way we're supporting chileya. so this is where it's very nuanced. and of course, you know, i'm an a group of people who are discriminated against. and hor forgot about all white working class people because you know, they are discriminated against. and no one talked about them. now. ah, that is, that is a big issue because they are now not only being forgotten about but the, the black community being told that the reason for their discontent are white working class people who are racist. now, white working class, people haven't got an influential control over um, nice crime, education jobs, housing that black people are sometimes not being, not able to get. but they're being told that because of some racist fan or some hungarian fan working class people. the reason why we have racism in this, in this country, rather than systemic by so it's a, it's a very complicated subject. but as one of the arguments you put forward, i'd have to put forward that luke is important, not just how many players black playoffs in arlington and football, but how many black manager, how many black faces in the boat tomorrow, asian faces for you. you put stress on that, is that because you to lay thing it to power structures or? well, it's more to do with as, as murphy said, ah, in terms of who do you point the finger at it. so what happens is for our powerful blackledge or taking the knee for inclusion and for and we talk about that. they say it's not just the black. last math is about all fault of discrimination. i never heard one person mentioned the fact that there are no asian pakistan, bangladesh, or indian footballers. that's not even on the agenda. and in terms of black managers, that's only non the agenda either. so it's very easy to point the finger at a family throws up on, on the field or who abuses you on twitter. however, real is that real racism, as i like to call it, is of the majority of you can't see it. it's obvious. the overt racism, the bananas and the, and the twitter. but of course, when you look at the fact that there are 30 percent blackfoot bowlers and they are probably less than 2 percent black managers. as much as black managers aren't being racially abused. the fact is that they're not being given opportunities. so why don't we speak about that? and that's that for me is a bigger problem. but when you brought through in 1980, so sir, 1st understanding player 4 from what formed in england. i mean those only a handful of black players and i guess because, well, at that particular time there was a perception of a black plays ability, football as ability physically, mentally playing in certain positions, positions of responsibility, goalkeeper whereas you have to be, you played on the wing, you have to be fast, you don't think too much that opening positions of responsibility, those mid anal dispelled because you've got black goalkeepers, you've got black center hobbs and more importantly, and i don't mean this a lot of black people take this wrong way when i say this, you have a lot of black footballers while making lots of money, who aren't very good. now, we saw the english. you can have a black person who is turning as much money as a white person who is even as good as old as some one place. and that for me shows that in terms of the playing, but from the playing perspective, from a physical perspective, there's no racism, a tall, racial, biased towards black players. now to be a manager, you have to be able to think. now, what is the perception of your capability to of the, of your ability to lead or woman's ability to lead a fortune 500 country, or a gay person billeted fighting a war. and this is what we have to dispel. so it must be got lots of black players . now the next step is management and that is where you have to have the perception of a black person, not a black footballer, a black person's ability to think. thank you. buy your book again. well, sure, a key audience for this book who you're trying to get this message across. i'm trying to get the message across to are the people who think they aren't biased because everybody will agree with what i say possibly. but they won't think it's them. because we all know that people are sexes, people are biased. people are race, is people homophobic. i got off the train on at you said to day and i was walking to the taxi. i heard a conversation going on and i don't know what the conversation was about, but the foreman actually said to the man, i didn't see who they were. they were having this discussion, an argument about something. and he said, that's a very northern attitude to have. and of course, i know that he didn't meet it as a compliment. so what is the perception that he has of northerners? and this is why the book told him, ask him if it was no other than jamaica. nolan, waafa speaking in jamaica, they have a listen, but perspective on the people on the north coast. i'm from kingston and the grill. i'm wanting about a north kolton in kingston. we have a view of them probably being inferior because we're from that. so therefore, the, the bias that we all have is based on a perception around perception that we have based on, on ridiculous things like, for example, when i 1st came to england in 1976 youth about these irish jokes and irish people were thick. and i thought i didn't think i'd ignore the irish people but and i was like telling i was jokes because patio or fake, that's what i was told which is. and of course i want to talk about scottish people when i went started playing football and we went to the bar and talk about scottish people not buying a drink, which obviously isn't true, but this is how perception stick. when you have people telling you things on true, let's take a o full view list for the say, well, isn't this just a question of football becoming more cosmopolitan? a as it becomes more cosmo bolton, it will by definition become less racist. i mean, it is more difficult, not impossible. of course, for fans to target a black player, witness one or 2 black pills running about in the opposing team. it does become a bit more difficult if you're half the said is black and half the other side is what it really depends on how well those black players play, because we've seen offering the missed those penalties. when all of a sudden we spoke about this new own inclusive, england football, see because we're winning matches and of course as soon as like, 3 of them is penalties. you can see what happens. so the solution isn't for you to have more black players, because what will happen is if they play well, we love them if they don't play well, we'll abuse them. so the whole idea of most santa changing the perception of, of people to worlds muslims is not. he was a turbo player. he wasn't. and then if he leaves liverpool next, the next year, he isn't gonna change after that, he's not real. because of course, we know sports is so emotive than fans will love you if you give them success, no matter who you are. but if you don't get them success, that is where their preconceived ideas and they're on conscious spot in terms of the way they've been conditioned, takes them back to then, what do i believe of this person? very much like if a female referee walked onto the field before with your capabilities, most men will think, i think a man would be better on think they see that she's very good at the man's no good. then they may change, but the unconscious bass that they have is that men are better than women of riffing football matches. think kimberly gave me love john. it would be anything that you saw on a symbol, but she would say, yeah, we're finally getting some we're, we're finally making the break for audio her that is happening gradually, or are we still back in the dark ages or the canoes? highlight the issues and that's what football is always done from the champions league 30 years ago when use to pass is radco down the line. it is highlighting the problem. taking in these, highlighting the problem. what is next? we have to be something tangible and sport can't do anything to change people's perceptions. if we live in a racially, by sexes, homophobic society until the tactics in society, it will exist in all walks of society. you can't take football or cricket out of that. or the police for example, and then say we have to get rid of it in these industries or these institutions. we have to get rid of it in society 1st. because any football before your football fan before a policeman before your cricket or cricket fan, you're a member of society and you carry or sensibilities with you. you don't all of a sudden going to these industries or institutions and then become biased in any way. and that's what we have to talk to, we have to tackle society, but we're doing the all the way around. i want to come back after the break less exactly what we're going to be talking about racism. and why does society ah ah, prices for gas is going to be up dramatically by the time the elections because a vine has an adjust the true cause of this calamity. and that is the excess of money printing. and they are scheduled now to double the money supply. the empty money supply again, the next 12 months. they've doubled it over the previous 12 months. they're going to double it again. so gas is going $89.00 a gallon. oh, there's a patch of water around the try, a seal island that's in contention between canada and the united states. northern government has suddenly become optimal for lobster. our population here is exploded . one of the most valuable fisheries that's ever existed. suddenly you had made an canadian fisherman in these waters at the same time jousting for position and attention to high violence is bound to happen. this is the last land border dispute between canada and the united states. it could be magnified to the point where there could be cost that would be significant to poke countries border dispute don't go away, they suspects care. something's going to happen. welcome back. alex's in conversation is one of the finest footballers to grief in england shack. but there is much more to john binds, an educated john bunce, he was saying he can't separate racism and sport from racism wider society. but if that's the case, then i will look in the wrong direction or try to eliminate it and spoke when we should be trying to eliminate that through society. absolutely, absolutely the wrong way and not just in sport from an elite point of view. you have to look at and of course i said the intersection book in terms of sexism, homophobia, all kinds of discrimination. you have to look to get rid of it at the bottom and all go up to the top rather, need all the way around. cuz for hundreds of years, we believe that getting more elite black people, women, gay people to positions will then change everything down below. but it won't. we have to change the perception of the average person, the average gay person, the average woman. and then you'll have many more of them making it up to the top by their own volition rather than thinking we can pull them up. if more people get up to the top. so than that, that's to do with society. think about your own bigler and john buttons. your father when you came thing with the missouri military. tasha the jamaica high commissioner. you went to a grammar school so you don't come from an under privileged background. reuben, relative certainly to most black people. you gave them a pretty privileged background. don't alter the way you were treated when will you better treated the grammar school and you would have been at the local corporate house? absolutely. that's why i don't look at my experiences and look at either racism or, or blackness for my own point of view. because, ah, i and i, what i, i struggle with is i struggle to capitalize on certain aspects of blackness. while not enduring the everyday reality of the back of the black experience that average black people, the working class black people go through. because as you say, i came as a military as a son, my son was at san her with andrew parker bowles. ah, we lifted high gate, we lived in mayfair. my dad had a chauffeur, i went to a grammar school that had 17, i became a footballer. so having not gone through the everyday experience as much as living in london with my friends who were black, i saw what they went through on and know what their families went through. so i understand racism and understand that that is the races we really have to change, not just for a black person because he's black because a black, a lead person may go through or experience racist incidents when a banana comes on the field of relax and you can get an oscar, whereas black people have this every day and that's what we have to challenge that everyday experience of the non elite black people, non elite women, non elite gay people. and i don't go through that and people like me do not go through them. but you would have feel the or norman tab at cricket test if you remember norman talbot. but he promised to conserve to politicians who said that you are so white people being black as long as it's full english, cricketing yeah, use for the west indies. i would have, i would have fell to norman period cricket test, but i probably would have gone to university got a nice job and even a nice big house, but a can play cricket. whereas although the average black person fails enrollment, that would cricket, cricket test can get a house, congress job can get access to social care. and that's much more important than me not being able to play cricket or football if i feel the cricket test, because i would still and why i think this way growing up in jamaica, which is an all black country. i saw the way working class black people were treated by middle upper class and elite black people. so it's not as simple is much more the nuance and a black and white situation. it's about that it is about capitalism and it's about discrimination and vice generally. and famously, and they have a little darby and even you casually almost said footie the banana off the field of a famous instant. do you have the assurance without face for fear of a poise, at least i would think and take a late fee of a poisonous it was that because of your inner confidence in you and your own self that you are able to do that or when we bought of you just trying to get the ball. that is a very poignant picture. i do not remember doing that at all. i don't think it was 198-819-8788. i've been playing football season. 1081. and when i played, and it's not because it's westmore mil wall or anywhere else that was happening every single week. a banana came on the field. now this because his birth, emerson versus liverpool in a high profile, matched with the best things in the country. it was highlighted, but that was happening every week, up and down the country. so while people looked at that, and then all of a sudden there's an example of an elite situation whereby we're making a big deal of an elite situation whereby we had ignored that for years before when it already been happening. and maybe it was appropriate and it was great that people have started to talk about it, but that was nothing new. and that is why i say i do not remember doing that at all because she said this is to happen so often. and the same thing, roughly half of mot walters in scotland, it was only when a very high profile reading just clear out of banana for one of the all of a sudden it was realized that chris was more unusual. it is called because of mass black. well, yes, but if one of them take a stand house mir against calvin beef, nothing would have been said or done. so somebody with tumbling point lance that that because the focus of attention on whether it's a turning point and tramp of highlighting the issues, which is fantastic. and we're still doing it now highlighting the issue. taking the lea. we're not talking about why we're taking in the we're not talking about a tangible difference that we can make after we've taken say, what are we going to do next? it's just about whether we should take any or not. that's what the conversation is not why we're actually taking the knee on what it's all about. so once again, these gestures are fantastic to highlight the issue, but they can do nothing to change the issue of racism in bertha racial and england in particular. is it an imperial past thing? is that something it's essentially a boldly empire on the boat visions and perceptions of a black people as well. not just black people. you can look at the opium or it's in china, and you can see what happened in india. so not about black, it is about imperialism. it is about empire. and of course, we have our, when since 2nd, with central to now lead in the country. and, of course, is quite poignant that we talk about the cricket, the parliamentary involvement, and now the cricket. and the language that use in cricket, when we know the language that's used by our most important person in terms of what he considers women with burke, us to look like. and i, i remember a headline one headline, a quote that he talked about on boys in tank tops. so the language that he uses is acceptable. because when, unfortunately when you're in charge, you get to say what's racist and whatnot. but we're now talking about language that's acceptable in crickets on football, but the men who have got the most power in the land that use language as unacceptable. no one questions that she think the cultural sport committee should call the prime minister. well, a lot of this is hearsay not from the prime minister. put in terms of people say, i didn't say that. i didn't say that i said this. i didn't say that. i think that we knows. we know that he actually said, or just being completely ignored, where he tended to write it down. of course. well, that's a particularly clever, what it's not a problem isn't because what, what he says come up and for writing it down, he became the prime minister. but i'm going to get something on the record, the as because you came to this country that the jamaica like me, you can played for any of the home can play for scotland. absolutely. and if they come asking, he would have played 100 percent and i'll tell you why not because i would have wanted to pay for scotland. because if we are all honest and that's why the book is called him, come from the truth. because his about us being honest. now this is not nothing to, we don't come to the truth about racism. but i don't want to get anybody who place the scotland, who is the scottish are out who is an irish whales who is in welsh. however, if they have an opportunity and england ask them they will play freeman 1st as much as people will say no. but a lot of them arm is normally. they don't play for england because they haven't asked them. and then, like vinnie jones wales comes to ask him when he's $28.00, he says yes, if they're not, he would a said yes jason, macintosh on all of his teammates of mine played for on and then there from liverpool. so it's normally, you're asked by this, the so called, ah, so called lesser countries 1st. so england for asked me 1st at 18 years old, even asked me to play. i forgot to 21 and england and asked me to play in scotland . did absolutely go to play for scotland. well, she adams has made almost the same point. justin and the last few weeks standing outstanding again, like who would have play for you. and i mean, it probably not quite at least have speech said luke. i thought i could make a difference to, to the, to the scar, say the think about the answer. you have to be honest, you know, because, and we know that's the reality because there's nothing worse than being disingenuous or trying to kid people that you've always wanted to pay for scotland, your whole life type of thing. you know what i mean? so you'd rather just be honest about it and he gives a 100 percent for scotland and i would have given hardships and for scotland. and i said after the england, france, you know, if i pay for scotland or wales, i would have been a 100 percent because that is who i identify with that, that particular time. and i used to pierce as an example of this use. the quintessential englishman, british bulldog spirits. he's got his tattoo on there. 100 percent. bring him. yeah . 69. england caps if he had 68 in england captain, a 69 cap. we don't know how happened to be for france against england. he would have given a 100 percent because his pride, his affiliation with his new team, meant that he would get a 100 percent. and that is where this whole idea about what it means to be british or english. and it needs more to us than anybody else got on them. when bob, rocky to say was, you know, should be more to us. why it more for england to beat nigeria than nigeria to be thing them be cover english were more important than, you know, we love each other more than, than the nigerian. so the whole idea of nationalism really is not a, i'm not a big fan of, but let me tell you, it made a very considerable dis, a difference to the scotland team of the it is length is with consonants on a. nicholas would win a good night out, it would have been a fee of it, but they did it in the field as well. a. i'm just interested in the, the book the since the, when you are on the way to, or maybe back from brazil in baton. the montana state and when you double passed, the entire team unscrewed a one to go as a young player, nathan, 84 and the national front support. so on the plane because the legal team at that stage and traveled in oakland styles and stealing your attitude to that to me. but more about that, i'm really interested why didn't you go and supplement, get somebody else to focus on once again, this was a regular occurrence of football. you know, this wasn't the 1st time routine, national from flags in the, in the stadiums. when we went to play in england and walking down the street, this was the, you know, it's a retrospectively looking back. people who don't understand time, what life would like back then are appalled and saying how, how could it be? and because we forget what it was like, but if you're old enough to remember at that time, the national front, broken down on the streets. so therefore, it wasn't that it wasn't anything unusual. it was a little more unusual to see them on the plane with us. we were like they refunded . but of course, at that particular time, this was just an accepted part and you know, you order those press men who are on the who are now still around. now by the way, who are now shouting from the high, from, from the heavens about racial discrimination. our target isn't it should be allowed . no one said a word back then. now i've how they changed their perception now or did he just know how not to get even, to the extent you school, the most memorable, in my opinion, in english history. the against government is excellent. but that's why i believe that you go against brazil was the most memorable go and linguist football history . but it's got a wonderful and is sale or people like them say we're not coding that because it's a black. yeah. when i crossable for market is when the 2nd so it's probably a little draw. look, i can promise you that no scott on spoke to would i would have said, i know, of course, of course i'm gonna think about that is that, i mean, i cannot let ignorant people affect me in any way, shape or form. so that did not upset me at all because all these people are ignorant. so therefore, why are they going to upset me? ah, with an issue that they have now know, other people think differently and if they feel disenfranchised, and they want to, you know, feel less than i completely empathize with them, but that could never happen to me. so what makes the for john biles where you've made a considerable impact in your views and in this book, in particular, no uncontroversial. some people say it's not the my attitude, but many people support what you're saying and it makes people think so. so what makes for, for john, but well keep doing what i'm doing. i'm, i'm trying to wider the conversation to, to the non elite people in the inner cities, the safe can have more support for them or can they have a voice rather than just the elite for company to do that? and at the other consent of the field to play that the i used to, to try to play politics as john barton's, not all the political aspirations whatsoever. none whatsoever could there's no political solution to the, the, to discrimination. no political solution whatsoever. john barnes, thank you so much for joining me in. alexandra, thank you. if al gore, with intent on telling the world about the inconvenience is there climate change? john vines is telling the uncomfortable facts about racism. the binds argument is that much of the anti racist rhetoric is superficial, that we should be more concerned with racism and borton's than on the day. the thing was content that racism is deeply imbued and england's imperial past. and that extend to his people suffer from racist abuse is determined by class and power . his dues are challenging for government and football authorities. the lake that does not make good i know from alex myself and other issue is good by stacy. and we hope to see you all again next ah ah ah, what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy even foundation, let it be in arms. race is on offense. very dramatic development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very critical of time. time to sit down and talk with you as food and drug administration. flights of freedom of information requesting courts asking it be given to 55 years to fully release redacted documents for items for the approval of fall as as cobra montana. maxine, protests, sweep you of us government clamped down yet again in response to the rising cupboard cases. germany is expecting shortly to issue tough new rules for its unvaccinated citizens. a u. s. court slammed its doors shocked to a u. s. t v station after one of the journalists with court allegedly stalking a bus full of jurors in the high profile case of karl written out well, if they don't want to cooperate with us, fine, they don't have to. it isn't something we want anyway. and brought to my potent takes a swipe with the military activities at washington and.