Is true that are being built for so called response to a coronavirus we suddenly find all these military programs the horrors that playbook talked about you know they were justified. This concept that everybody seemed to share in the United States that the world the freedom loving people everywhere made an imminent threat there was so dangerous how horrific in its scope that we must temporarily one of our of our priorities is out of our ethical and moral principle but well certainly get back to those very similar is right over the crisis never seem to end although communism is over as of now theres always errors and theres china on the search for enemies in the united. West just tell me you Sidney Gottlieb is given the directors of the cia maybe your current secretary of state pump a little gina. I suppose now running the cia may not even heard of sydney going to leave before this book emma when the guy was running one of the most important secret project in the history of the United States and identity was totally unknown or to the outside world even inside the i. A. E. A. There are only a vague idea of what he was doing actually this guy had a license to kill issued by the Us Government i concluded after doing all the research that went into this book that he not only was the poisoner in chief as i have but he really was the most powerful under a lot of american of the 20. Now you make a lot of allegations against him im going to say although we cant defame the dead. He said in a court case he couldnt remember things couldnt remember any of kinds of things you talk about in the book back in 83 died in 1909. Over here the statue of churchill is being attacked by black lives matter protest has just take us back to when churchill one to bio weapons so during the 2nd world war they knew what it for sure job you can convince by intelligence reports which were later proven job involves the nazi government was planning to arm some of it the missiles or raiding london with biological warfare weapons there or churchill not having the facilities to radiate out their weapons that frankly rubbed off the air for him tens of thousands of the interact. He would hold in readiness to counterattack against germany so russias not agreed to do that and he ordered the us army to begin a secret project to create the anthrax and they were being built in a factory in indiana when the war ended so it was sure urgent request to roosevelt based on what turned out to be false information put the United States and really the western world on the path for biological weapons and im going to get to the cias recruitment of nazis nazi doctors in a 2nd but again the context here were talking about is. Korea of britain the United States maybe have killed a 5th of koreas population in the korean war you say in the book that the cia thought. That released us soldier is this supposed to communism their apparent support could only be explained by mind altering drugs so what i was working through is of this project m. K. Ultra the cia mind control project at the center of my book one of the questions they kept emerging in my mind was what led reese people in the early cia to believe that mind control was real why did they spend 10 years destroying so many lies in the effort to try to find a way to destroy human minds and number and place it there. I think there are 2 reasons one of them has to do with cultural conditioning that of all the books in the movie Sherlock Holmes story the end around post story about mind control and note that i think subconsciously a lot of these people that generation the generation that ran the early cia were affected by the good and began to lose the order between fiction and reality but then there were a couple of specific episode. That felt sort of as these not at all ready for allies so i was the one you mention in which. American prisoners of war returning from korea after the end of the war or in many cases to assign statements criticising aspects of life in the and i ate some has confessed to going to many more primes in korea a few have said they had dropped by a logical bob the North Koreans of the United States is always never happened how could they have said these things the only explanation that the cia come up with was somehow their minds and then. By a hostile communist forces and therefore you see were not speaking for the valves somebody was the root and therefore since we now have. Evidence later proved to be un true that the communists have a mind control capacity or are developing it is absolutely urgent. That the fence and project become involved in the search or mind control and it was simply got these and i said before you can find a way to insert a new mind into somebodys brain you 1st have to find a way to destroy the mind that is in there he spent 10 years experimenting on most important addictive trying to find ways roys a human mind the human spirit the human body if you mention the cultural context i mean these Ivy League White middle class people theres a class dimension to it but even they out on earth did they agreed to hiring nazis people implicated people who were involved in experimentation at the death camps i mean specially sydney gottlieb himself what his grandparents were all the cause celeb was really this is a fascinating part of this story so during at the very end of the 2nd world war. Head of our u. S. Secret service the o. S. F. Wrote a memo to president roosevelt saying that the nazi regime was collapsing it would be important for the u. S. Government to try to hire nazi spy and bring them into working for the u. S. Government rather rejected this idea that were not going to hire any of those. But after a few months roosevelt with that through that was in power and that process went ahead after the very end mediately after the 2nd world war american intelligence officials were arresting many people in germany and they had files if you had a scientific background they would put a paper on your file so therefore operation paperclip became the name of the project by which nazis were brought to the United States and this was a process that involves something called shape because the records of these people had to be placed all references to membership in the net after the gestapo had to be. There would be little entries made into one of a family grammar. So the 1st group that came were by then the 2nd group was the Rocket Scientist that was very blunt then came the 30 bio warfare people the people who wanted to know how to control human smuggling thought to themselves whos out there that has information that we dont have whos been experimenting people and that plays out exactly what portions of our kind of voice that work on the human mind of the human by well if theyre not the cousins ration doctors and the bio warfare experts who work for the 3rd reich the part about godly is particularly intriguing as you say gottlieb was jewish his parents emigrated from Central Europe at the beginning of the 20th century if they had not emigrated and you know sidney might well of wild up being the victim of one of those horrific so called medical experiment in a nazi concentration camp but in the event that didnt happen he grew up in the United States any didnt seem to have any problem working shoulder to shoulder with the nazi doctors who carried out those very experiments maybe the senators. Worked on that committee on torture about guantanamo about abu ghraib maybe they should think differently this was because ironically i suppose predictable that they then these nazi doctors this stuff engage in a pulling torture injecting l. S. D. Into africanamericans and the tricity drugs you talk about mass poisonings in San Francisco youre absolutely right that project went completely off the rails largely due to gottlieb himself so does the San Francisco bay it was just one example youre right it involves our respect experiments on human subjects and the numbers of people die but godly also had all sorts of other interests one of them was the making 53 in the godly persuasions of the i. A. E. A. To buy the entire world supply of allen and use that for 2 purposes one was these horrific lee course an experiment into trying to destroy human minds but the other were for less course of experiments including this bizarre program that he set up in San Francisco he wanted to see if there was a connection between drugs like l. S. D. And other one and that so we got a guy in San Francisco to work for a man to hire a ring of prostitute. Job was to go out to go guys bring them back to earth specially equipped apartment they were very l. S. D. And their reactions would be monitored by that drug agent who had no scientific background and was just sitting on a portable toilet drinking more than you out of a pitcher this was called operation midnight a while back and so this National Security whorehouse was part of americas effort to defend itself against communism in the 850 this is how crazy m. K. Ultra when it seemed kids are all stop you there more about m. K. Ultra in the poisoner in chief after this break plus on thin ice despite blacklegs massive protests over alleged murders by u. S. Security forces on the next to feel the force of u. S. One force meant a 1000000 overseas students we tell you how you might escape the clutches of the immigration and Customs Enforcement agency has plans for mass deportations begin elizabeth coming up in part 2 of going under. The leftist senseo lost in november election and theyre trying to cause trouble theyre stirring the pot and theyre trying to get a little bit of a civil war going but they can blame trump for that and one way to do that is by saying its ok to live to Small Businesses and that is thats a. Really common meant to stir social unrest looting and violence and thats what the left is up to now. Welcome back im still here with Stephen Kinzer discussing the cias so called mind control program m. K. Ultra tell me about the unintended consequences the cultural consequences and does the sixtys counterculture well the irony of it has to do with the experiments that gottlieb wanted to carry out ordinary people so in addition to these uses of l. S. D. Is there on prisoners or on people who are unaware not weve also wanted to see how an ordinary person would react to a let me in a clinical setting knowing exactly what was happening so almost overnight a whole new market for l. S. D. Research grew up people whod come in and volunteer one of them with cam key the author of what went on to become the great counterculture classic one flew over the cuckoos nest actually he took it in a hospital and loved it so much that he got a job in the hospital in the Veterans Administration not the middle of our california thats what gave them the material purpose fantastic but Alan Ginsburg the radical poet was another of the very 1st volunteers to use the method of understood that the l. S. D. And they were using came from the new gottlieb and the i clearly also then go on to do quote john lennon who said thank the cia if not to gottlieb i understand the Assassination Program was prolific tell me about the press the better known the Castro Fidel Castro raul castro che guevaras assassination attempt by going to labor and also Patrice Lumumba so the title of my book poisoner in chief refer to the us doesnt youre talking about that in the campaign by united in the late. That in the foreign leader then he got. Was the head of the Chemical Branch of the cia there was a logical that when the cia needed poison or any purpose including killing a foreign leader he would be the person they were turned in it was sydney got the. Poison that was supposed to have been used to poison the chinese leader joe and why that plot was thwarted later on fidel castro became the target and it was godly who created all those elaborate devices you read about not only the elbe pill that the phrase i learned while reading the file i wish dealt ill else that for lethal or help it was a little kill you he made those for castro but he also made things like a poison fountain and with an ultra fine so you wouldnt feel it went into your leg he made. Poison wetsuits so that if castro put another and we need a way to get him the obviously none of the plots were successful then when the cia decided at the order of president eisenhower to assassinate Patrice Lumumba of the Prime Minister of the congo not only did godly make the boy carried from washington to the congo which i think makes him the only person in history at its best ever of carry government may poison to another country intended for the use in the fascinating the leader of that country you know we dont know if you believe these assassinations go on in your book you quote Richard Helms as saying the principal driving force was attorney general Robert Kennedy and you say theres an irony that actually a cia acid in paris was receiving a poison pen on the same day as as malcolm x. Said the chickens came home to roost and j. F. K. Roberts brother was killed whatever you believe about the kennedy assassination all of the or even in some ways ive acted. If it was oswald alone it was because he was a very we know it go back to us making a doing that was castro it was revenge that was the end. It was because they didnt like him to giving up on the baby. Yet it was because if you missed it with the i am right out rogue elements of the National Hero it was because they were angry were going to be over here about that shield the 2nd has never left the Us Government actually died when i. Went to work the persian thank you but you know its a moment of thinking were still angry dont castro but we dont know how many hundreds of millions of lives may be affected by all these Foreign Policy decisions just finally whats happened to camp dietrich which reaches so much in this book is associated with plum island because of course there is a conspiracy in fact law some of us representative from the republicans because of a smith said lyme disease could have been created by camp dietrich its a disease 300000 americans a diagnosis annually off what is kind of the trick now well 48 youre going to now call was the center for development of u. S. Biological weapons and biological agents in general its now used for example purpose as a Storage Facility for. Anti dote still possible with global disease. It was there that Cindy Gottlieb maintained a secret well in which cia scientists concocted their voice carried out their other work. Now its not clear what kind of research is done on behind some of the closed doors at fort dix but its certain to say that. All we dont know how deep the u. S. Government is going into research for biological warfare some of which is going to bite us or whatever the u. S. Government is doing in this area its happening behind closed door on that base in maryland same base that was the center m. K. Ultra the place where the forces were abrogated. Where there is the most. Research anywhere in the world waiting weapons. Period or defend against record weaponization. Of vital and very obscure role in the art harbor of bio warfare and the investigation and biological tools if it be used a little. Simkins i thank you. Well away from the cia now to another arguably in from his u. S. Government agency ice or immigration and Customs Enforcement has grown a virus in black lives matter protests continue to rage it is threatening to deport maybe every overseas student from the usa but a leading immigration lawyer and former International Student is fighting back Fiona Mcentee joins me now via skype from chicago thanks unified coming on more than a 1000000 International Students given the u. S. Student visas nastia what on earth is being threatened against them. Thanks for having the apps and i were kind of messed up fight by by there was actually earlier on this week at my i changed course with regard. For foreign students that were made kind of made hands and essentially they said that if foreign students were gulen to be studying online and morris had an online only course thats for the false master and they would not be able to do that while maintaining their their student visa status here in the u. S. Now i know harvard and mit have already said theyre going to sue the trumpet ministration i mean this could really mean the mass deportation of say all u. K. Students from the United States. Well i mean that was certainly what i had put in there theyre interactive that they issued a essentially last foreign students that were going to be attending online only courses with a few options and i dont think any of the options are grace and the 1st is leave the last 2nd to try to scramble to transfer schools and a few weeks notice assuming they can find a course in a school that is not online only and force the schools to to go on to kind of change from online only to in person or face deportation so theyre the options that they were left with iraqs into law it is to say that harvard and mighty have already say Northwestern University in chicago and recently just joined in support of harvard and mit position as well and i know you tweeted out a loophole a possible loophole i dont know whether youre being humorous about it ill get to that in a 2nd 1st of all do you think this seri