his full throttle attempt to overturn the presidential election. by taking the precious time on this case, the justices have actually halted donald trump's federal election interference trial. that means that a deverdict is less likely before november's election. beyond justice delayed this case could reshape the presidency also and axios explains. quote, the next week may redefine the limits of presidential power for generations to come. andrew weissman and melissa murray are kicking off another hour back with us. i would just like to ask how -- how is this even a thing, melissa? if anyone listened to the oral arguments, donald trump asked his -- his lawyers are asking the justices to say you know, they gave examples of you can shoot someone and assassinate someone and a president could order an assassination and that should be covered because he needs immunity. that's a crime. >> so first of all, that's exactly right. some of the arguments that were made at that oral argument on april 25th were specious to the point of being stupid. and the court can discharge those. they can dispatch with those very quickly. the court doesn't have to reach every issue and doesn't have to answer every hypothetical. it can answer what is squarely before it like this particular case but we know from the april 25th oral argument that neil 25 gorsuch said they were going to write an opinion for the ages. and apparently, that takes ages because we d have been waiting long time for that. and it could be that the chief justice is insisting on some show of unanimity. i think this is more likely there are duns of dissents here from also the term playing out. even among the conservatives there isn't consensus on how to decide the basic issues like the second amendment for example. we may get the outcome where there's a unanimous judgment but lots of different decisions or separate opinions and that t takes a lot of time. the question is if donald trump has been immunized in the criminal trial. that's already happened because this court has taken so long to decide this question. >> andrew -- i agree with simone. it's really frustrating in so many levels to see the court really putting the country in this position on this question.t which seemingly to everyone is easy to acknowledge. the speciousness of it as well as the -- the real problems that could be set upon the country if they decide the wrong way. and former attorney general eric holder had this to say on msnbc's deadline white house. just take a listen to how he is assessing this moment. >> a president can violate the american criminal law if he or she is doing something in their official capacity. that is an absurd and dangerous conclusion. and i'm worried given the length of time it's taken for the supreme court to decide this case it's something along those lines might come out of the supreme court. >> and it is that something along those lines that have a lot of court watchers and folks like ourselves here concerned about how this court comes down on this. do -- do you think they're going to try to give, you know, take a little bit from column a. and b. on this and give a little bit of immunity to trump or send it back and say you guys, lower courts take a closer look at this aspect of at it? how do you assess the concerns the people may have in terms of what the court may do next. >> the big picture to sort of underscore something that melissa ended on is that the choices are something that's already happened, that is horrendous to something that the court could do that's unimaginable. whether it's -- there's no good news. the fact that they took the case and the fact that they th could have decided this six months ago when jack smith asked the court to hear it, and now they are giving this former president de facto immunity. that has happened already. what attorney general eric holder talked about was the unimaginable. which is that the court issues decisions that gives the presidency some form of criminal immunity. i don't think that they're going to go that far. but it is certainly possible and they may carve out a small area where they do think that's true. where the president has exclusive powers. but i don't think they're going to say that he can, for instance, order s.e.a.l. team six to kill a political adversary to use an example that came up in the court of appeals. >> as a matter of fact, we also have the sound of justice sotomayor using that exact type -- take a listen. >> exactly. >> if the president decides that his rival is a corrupt person, and he orders the military or orders someone to assassinate him, is that within his official acts, that for which he can get immunity? >> it would depend on the hypothetical and we can see that could well be an official act. >> it could and why? because he is doing it for personal reasons. >> okay. so that should be absolutely chilling and your former boss there. melissa, it's hard for me listening to that to imagine as other people suggest that she is out there trying to work out some type of compromise on this. you tell me. >> i don't think it's necessarily a question of compromise. i mean, that was pretty stark hypothetical but i i do think that the chief justice on a decision like this one, he'll want to present a united front for the court. we saw this in trump versus anderson the colorado disqualification case where they were nominally unanimous but then there was all of the roiling second opinions even as there was this veneer of urinalty. they're trying to get to some point and some very narrow point on which they can all agree but there are lot of other decisions and we know this court can move quickly when it wants to. the end of trump's term in 2020 they cleared the shadow docket of a bunch of executions knowing the biden administration was coming in and putting a moratorium on the federal death penalty. so when it suits them, and often when it suits conservative interests, they move with a quickness. but here, this is taking longer and we can speculate as to why. >> i just -- so is that how it works then? could it be that this -- the dissents or the concurring opinions are not actually even written yet? i'm just thinking about the dobbs leak right and there was a fully drafted text. are we waiting on edits to -- a google doc and break it down for us. >> it's not a google doc. [ laughter ] >> how do they do this thing. >> there would be leaks if there was google docs and we already know they have problems with leaks. the chief justice in the majority. i think for a case like this assign it to himself but it would be assented as the writing of the entire court but it would be circulated among all the justices and justices would ask for a different modification or alterations in order to sign on. and in some cases, they would also perhaps say well, i'm signing on to the judgment but i want to write a separate concurrence about the reasoning or i want to write a dissent or whatever. and those have to be circulated as well and other justices have the opportunity to join those concurrences and descents. so it is an iterative process and does take a lot of time but i want to emphasize it doesn't have to take this much time. this court in the 1970s when it was deciding the watergate case, took 54 days from the start of that case to the end. and eight days after richard nixon resigned. >> so you have andrew, the interesting sort of -- narrative that is also playing a out because there are other cases as we know. and judge tonya cut kin this week sort of signaled if the case gets back on her docket and it's the jack smith case, she'll give trump's legal team at least close to three months to prepare. that could still leave run way for -- the case to get started before the november election. which would of course up end trump's ability to travel in the final weeks of the campaign. ve so there's still some -- some matters if you will in the judicial world of donald trump that he needs to be concerned about here. what do you think that -- is that a realistic timeline for -- for the jack smith case and any of these other cases out there? that there's -- there's still a possibility at least one of them could land and get started before november? >> michael. you missed all the talking. that weissman's eyebrows were doing as you were reading that reporting. [ laughter ] >> so -- >> that's why adi went to andre because i knew the eyebrows would be talking. >> so look, is it theoretically possible? can you see the sun and the moon and the stars align? yes. i think that -- i don't think there's a chance that you are going to see any of these three cases go forward. one of the things that could happen in the d.c. january 6th insurrection case, you sort of alluded to -- i didn't answer it in your last question, which was -- it is possible that the way the supreme court rules on this issue of immunity is that they say that there needs to be a pretrial assessment by the district judge of what is official conduct and what is personal conduct. that happened in a civil case that the d.c. circuit had where they sent it back for that kind of hearing. and although that wouldn't be a full criminal trial, if there is lee way for judge chutkin to have a hearing with witnesses, that's something she doesn't need to wait 80 days for. she does not need to put that off. she could have a hearing where jack smith calls witnesses and these would be witnesses who es the january 6th committee did not have available to them, for instance, the former vice president of the united states. so i think that that to me is the one potential prospect where we could see significant additional evidence play out before the election where you have that kind of hearing before judge chutkin. >> oh, why is it taking so long? >> i know. >> why don't they just do it. >> i know. but you know, it's the law. well, unfortunately, this is where our friend simone has to leave. >> michael kicked me out and i accidentally called him old in the break. >> we'll get into that sometime. but you know, she's got to go join the friends over at "meet the press." but andrew and melissa, you are not going anywhere. we still need to have a conversation because there's more that we want to talk to you about in the cases out there and it has to do with a challenge to the charges brought against somejanuary 6th rioters. this is "the weekend." k about it. boring is the unsung catalyst for bold. what straps bold to a rocket and hurtles it into space? boring does. boring makes vacations happen, early retirements possible, and startups start up. because it's smart, dependable, and steady. all words you want from your bank. for nearly 160 years, pnc bank has been brilliantly boring so you can be happily fulfilled... which is pretty un-boring if you think about it. -unnecessary action hero ... the nemesis. -it appears that despite my sinister efforts, employees are still managing their own hr and payroll. why would you think mere humans deserve to do their own payroll? because their livelihoods depend on it? because they have bills to pay? hear me now, paycom! return the world of hr and payroll to its rightful place of chaos or face a tsunami of unnecessary the likes of which you have never seen! this week, we expect another major supreme court decision with implications for donald trump and you know, the country. when the justices rule on whether some january 6th rioters were wrongfully charged with obstruction of an official proceeding by the justice department. the court's decision in fisher versus the united states could impact trump's federal election interference case and andrew and melissa, still with us. >> melissa, help us understand what's -- going on over at this particular case. you know, if the supreme court winds upsiding with the january 6th rioters, how does that affect those who have already been convicted? and really what does it mean for -- as alyssa noted, trump's case? >> so it's a really good question. the question for the court is whether this law, 1512 is meant to be applied in situations like this where the obstruction isn't about evidence tampering as was the case with enron which was the original origin story for the statute. obstruction of this official proceeding, the certification of the electoral college. this is going to be real test for the court's conservative textualists who argue the way to interpret a statute is to read the plain meaning of the text and give the meaning life. if you read the plain meaning of this statute. just read the words it just talks about official proceeding which this was. the certification of the electoral college but now we see the court's conservatives doing gymnastics to be like no, no, it wasn't meant for this. let's look at the purpose of this statute. i think that will be really interesting. what it means for jeffrey fisher who the defendant here who has challenged the conviction is that he could see his conviction go away if the court agrees with him that this was not the purpose for which this statute was intended. but for the other january 6th defendants, many of whom have actually pleaded guilty. they may have actually waived their rights to appellate process. so they may not be able to have do-overs to go back. but i mean, it is a really interesting question and it can be a case by case thing because some of this will turn on whether an individual was in the capitol at the time the certification was happening and may be the case that some of them -- this doesn't apply even if it is meant to apply in these circumstances. because they were not there. so there are a lot of factual questions and i think would need to be answered and that might make it harder for many of them to challenge existing convictions. >> melissa, michael. i have never seen someone's face light up over the use of enron. because for you right? this ties together, work that you have already done, michael. and work that is now before the supreme court. >> so yeah, this statute is one of two statutes that came intimiste tense and were amended post-enron to deal with some of the anomalies in the law when enron happened. so this statute is one that -- i'm very, very familiar with. i couldn't agree with melissa more that it is one where the court if it were to rule for the defense here is really going to be undermining its sort of conservative judicial philosophy. because the wording of the statute and i would argue the purpose of the statute, clearly are in favor of applying it as written. which is usually the conservative view. quick points here are that i don't think this will have an effect on the donald trump case. it depends on how it's written but this is one of -- so this is one of several charges against donald trump. of course, that case may never go forward. but if it were to, the -- even these charges may under a conservative reading, would still i think be okay. because if they could -- they could fit within the way it gets reinterpreted. but there are other felonies. the other is something that is -- since you have all the nyu professors on i'm going to refer to yet a third one which is ryan goodman has done a study of all of the sort of 300 or so cases that where people were charged with this statute. and almost every single one, actually i think maybe every one. even if the court rules in a way that's favorable to fisher, everyone faces other felonies or pled to other felonies or faces other misdemeanors. so there's i think nobody who's just going to be going off scot- free. there are a small sliver of people who will face only misdemeanors and no longer felonies depending what the court does. >> can i make it political? this is shorting -- will the january 6th prison movement make it to the republican national convention stage? lawyer has been a key connector says he's seen no indication planners are interested in taking up offers to have the speaker representing the cause be featured in the upcoming event. >> well, that may change. depending on what the supreme court does on this case. and -- you know, look, at this point i'm suspicious of every conversation around d.c. right now. melissa, because -- the reality of it is, this is the conflating of politics and law and i think a very unhealthy way. and when you have the ethical concerns surrounding the supreme court, you have the refusal of judges to recuse themselves from cases that members of their family have direct connections to. headlines like this out of semafor are just, you know, hey, yeah. why not? why not have the -- this sort of mash up at the national convention by having individuals who stormed the capitol. violated the sovereignty of the country by -- and engaging in insurrection. be focused at a national convention? and the supreme court, you know, in its rulings, the interpretation for a lot of folks was yeah, why not? this is all consistent behavior because the court's now given this license. and that's why they're alreadythinking and planning. >> i think -- regardless of what the court does, i still imagine we will see some of these individuals being paraded out at the republican national convention as patriots. as individuals who went to the capitol to reclaim their country. and did so lawfully. as patriots. that does not i think negate the fact that this court is in the center of politics which is where i think it -- probably should not be. i mean, there's the sense that the court is about law. and that is impartial and objective and i think, you know, the court has always been intertwined with politics inextricably but not this degree where we're now wondering if there's a delay in the immunity case because they want to wait before doing this because they feel like certain justices like look too closely associated with certain political interests. we have never been in a situation i think quite like that where poll tics seem to have infected and captured the court and i think it's bad for the court. this will surely happen at the republican national convention. but the real loser here is going to be the court. >> yeah. >> andrew weissman. melissa murray, as always, thank you for joining us. next. -- the communications director for the biden harris campaign michael tyler joins us to preview the strategy when he meets donald trump on a debate stage for the first time in four years. you are watching "the weekend." ♪♪ ♪♪ chewy, a citi client, uses citi's financial expertise to help drive its growth and keep its supply chain moving, so more pet parents can get everything they need... right when they need it. keeping more pets, and families, happy. ♪♪ for the love of moving our clients forward. for the love of progress. when you smell the amazing scent of gain flings... time stops. 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>> well, good morning. and thank you for having me. listen, i think it's pretty simple. i think it reflect what is the president laid out when he challenged donald trump to these two debates little over a month ago. when he said he wanted to talk to donald trump about the role that trump played in overturning roe versus wade why he thinks these extreme state level abortion bans are playing out brilliantly and wants to talk to donald trump about why he wants to return us to a failed economic approach that only benefits rich people like donald trump. with corporate giveaways and tax handouts so the ultra wealthy on the backs of the middle class and talk about the threat that donald trump continues to pose to our democracy. right? most evidently seen on january 6th. but the fact that trump continues to sew and celebrate political violence every day out on the stump. celebrating and promising to pardon the insurrectionists of january 6th. so those are the issues that the american people are going to see on the debate stage but fumedmently what they're going to see is a stark choice between the president and joe biden who wakes up every single day fighting for the american people relentlessly against donald trump who's now running as a convicted felon only longing out for himself. does not care about the harm that he causes to the american people. so long as the end result is more power for donald trump. that's what the american people are going to see on the debate stage. >> michael. you have got bob bauer filling in the role of donald trump in the debate prep. we have the good fortune of having bob bauer on andrea mitchell talking about playing that role. let's take a listen. >> you try to give the candidate that you are working with a real feel for what it's like to be debating that particular opponent. and so you have to look at how someone like donald trump or whoever that might be actually performs. sort of -- what are they willing to say? to be honest, it's hard to say some of the things that he says. some of which are, you know, very fact free. and it's hard sometimes the take on that tone just because it's not natural tone for me but then you are playing a role and trying to make the experience as realistic for the person you are working with as possible. >> is that realism with respect to trump that i think going to be at play. the environment is going to be very different from 2020. trump is a different character in his particular presidential drama. how -- how do you guys expect to go at this or how have you been going at that aspect of the prep, bob playing this role and bringing that -- this current trump much more to life than the trump we saw in 2020, for example? >> listen, a couple of things. number one, donald trump knows he's not playing to a maga rally and he knows he's going to be playing to a general election audience for frankly the first time in the campaign so far. but the issue for donald trump is not going to be his demeanor on the debate stage. the problem for donald trump is going to be everything that actually comes out of his mouth. because we've seen since he lost the 2020 election and snapped, he's become even more unhinged and more extreme and the things that he is talking about doing are even wilder and more extreme than what we saw when he last was in power. we know what he's going to talk about on the debate stage. we know he's going to talk about his failed economic approach and he's going to talk about -- the abortion bans and the states that he thinks are playing out brilliantly. we know he's going to spew all kinds of nonsense. and so for this campaign, that's the contrast that we're going to present between the president who leads with competence with dignity and with decency, bringing people together to actually solve problems. against donald trump, who is unhinged behavior and whose extreme vision for wherever he wants to take the country is completely out of step with voters that are going to decide the election. all we have to do is decide the contrast. >> michael. up until now all you have had is donald trump and his components trying to portray joe biden as a senile old man. in the last week or so we have seen them really try to shift expectations even going as far as to suggest the current president of united states might be on performance- enhancing drugs. because they're concerned that when their audience has been led to believe that he is, in fact, all of the things i just referenced shows up and the joe biden we saw at the state of the union that you know, they're going to fritz out and so i wonder what you make of this sort of resetting of expectations in the leadup to the debate. >> yeah. i mean, what i make of it is that trump and his campaign know they have absolutely nothing to offer the american people with which they would agree. they resort to none sense like this. this is what they tried in 2020 and also have a history of playing games with the debates right? complaining about the rules and the process and skipping out on debates. one thing is for sure, joe biden is going to be in atlanta on thursday. but we're not focused on any of this none sense that they're spewing is. we're focused on presenting the contrast to the american people. the president is going to talk about his record of accomplishment 15 million jobs and 800,000 manufacturing jobs the work that he is relentlessly done to lower costs for americans like capping the cost of insulin at $35. and he's going to contrast that against donald trump, his disastrous record when he was president. and the extremism that he is promising to inflicts on the american people if he's able to regain power. that is the disciplined focused approach to this campaign and the president is going to bring to the debate stage. >> michael. there's a lot that goes into a presidential debate as you well know. and you know, a lot of it is the prep for the candidate but it also -- as a decision around okay, who speaks first and who speaks last? where do you stand on the stage? cnn reports the coin landed on the biden campaign's pick. tails, which meant his campaign got to choose whether i want wanted to select the president's podium position or the order of closing statements. biden's campaign chose to select the right position. trump's -- the right podium position. trump's campaign then chose for the former president to deliver the last closing statement which means biden will go first at the conclusion of the debate. i love your stray teenry here. share us with the thinking behind donald trump having the last word and joe biden saying i'll just stand on the right side of the stage. [ laughter ] >> well, listen, i don't know if there's too much to reread into it other than the fact that president biden continues his winning streak against donald trump. 2020 election. the coin flip and we look forward to the 2024 winning streak continuing in november. but listen, you want to talk about the debate strategy and i do think one thing that maybe going slightly overlooked here as we focus on the debate stage which obviously matters, is how the campaign is using this to engage with the biden harris coalition. you mentioned it at the top but this is a moment where increasing slice of the electorate is going to begin the tune in to the campaign. to the presidential race. expo so we see it as an opportunity for our growing grassroots army to engage directly with the people in their networks. we have folks like the vice president who's going to be traveling out across the country and to kick off the week on the do bbs anniversary and hundreds of events on monday focused on the stakes for reproductive care. tuesday and wednesday we're going to continue that drum beat and talking about the economy that we want to build. how we're going to preserve our democracy but we're having almost 1600 events across the battleground states this week. so that people can actually engage in their own communities online and across the air waive waves to make sure that people understand the choice in this election as we head into these key summer months and we're focused on the intently debate stage and also using the moment to engage with the voters who are going to decide this election where they are in their communities. >> all right, michael tyler, thanks for coming on and sharing a little bit of the insight leading up to this debate. up next, democrats are hoping to flip the house this november. and the woman leading those efforts congresswoman suzanneal bene chair of the dccc is right here talk about it after a quick break. nothing dims my light like a migraine. with nurtec odt, i found relief. the only migraine medication that helps treat and prevent, all in one. to those with migraine, i see you. for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura and the preventive treatment of episodic migraine in adults. don't take if allergic to nurtec odt. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. it's time we all shine. talk to a healthcare provider about nurtec odt from pfizer. to 50 years with my best friend. 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[ gasps ] [ chuckling ] good job, junior. way to go. [ chuckling ] [ speaking minionese ] according to the liberal group swing left, democrats lost the house by just 6,675 votes in 2022. a handful of votes in just a few competitive races. so democrats, they ar not taking any chances this time around. just unveiled $28 million ad buy for the fall. the spending plan includes $16 million in tv ad reservations across eight states and $12 million in digital ad reservations across 21 states. double the initial investment the committee said it made in digital advertising during the last election cycle. joining us now democratic congresswoman suzan delbene of washington. welcome congresswoman. >> you're welcome indeed. great pleasure to have you. so following up on the -- on the fundraising numbers there, and the dollars that you are putting out on the street, the"washington examiner" notes the nrcc which is the republican congressional committee, outpaced the dccc for the first time in the 2024 cycle. speaker johnson noted the american people see president trump's trial for what it is. a partisan lawsuit against a political opponent. our online fundraising efforts supporting the president also broke records following the verdict. so you have -- you have, you know, a fundraising advantage if you will at the moment by the republicans. but it seems to me that dccc is already taken good advantage of the money already raised. talk to us about how that has put -- played out as alicia noted but also how does it look going forward over the course of the summer leading up to what will be a very expensive and critical campaign for the house this fall? >> well, first thanks for the question. we far outpaced the nrcc in our fundraising throughout this cycle. we have many more millions of dollars in the bank. they did outraise us by a small amount last month. but we are far ahead. and have strong momentum and support across the country. i mean, this election is about our rights and our freedoms and our democracy. and our future. and people see that and are standing up and making sure that their voices are heard. and they've been strongly supportive. we only need to net four more seats to take back the majority in the house of representatives. we have incredible opportunities all across the country. incredible candidates running across the country. and we have the resources to make sure we're communicating with voters. and so you are seeing those resources starting to be deployed. and one thing i want to point out too, we're also making the largest investment ever in digital and streaming. we're going to make sure that we connect with voters where they are and we know people are getting their information in many different ways. and we're going to make sure we're talking to them where they are so they understand the stakes of this election. >> i think that digital piece is particularly important congresswoman, you talk about, you know, increasingly diversifying base. we know that latinos get their information from youtube and voters that are younger are getting the news and information from sources like tiktok. when you talk about meeting voters where they are, i have to imagine that's also a tailored message to those specific voting blocks. >> absolutely. we have been not only making sure we're investing where they are, but working with communities to make sure that they're getting information in whatever way works best for them. talking to folks who are engaged in those platforms, to make sure they're getting accurate information. we've also stepped up our fight on -- against mis and disinformation, so we are going to be present all across the country and are very targeted to make sure we're connecting with voters where they are. >> congresswoman, you referenced, you know, reproductive rights as one of the -- one of the areas that certainly will be part of the national conversation. how -- how do you see congressional districts balancing that issue against others? because as -- from my experience and sort of winning and losing at the congressional level, congressional districts are different. one to the other. so a candidate in one district, the abortion messaging may be strong and works but in another district, not so much. do you leave it to the candidates to make these decisions based on the race that they're finding in front of them? or are there some efforts to try to shoe horn maybe too strong a word, but at least put in front of them pushing out a broader national narrative around a certain issue like abortion? >> well, let's be frank. candidates are running their races but every place across the country, folks are fighting for reproductive freedom and it a motivating issue with voters. over 60% of voters say they want to protect reproductive freedom and that's across the country. in every district. and you have seen it already in special elections since november of 2022. we've seen enhanced democratic turnout across the board where people are standing up for reproductive rights whether it's in kansas or ohio or virginia or wisconsin. in new york three with the special election of tom suaze on long island. even in alabama in a state legislative race, we saw a 30 point swing where a democrat won that seat after the supreme court in alabama ruled against in vitro fertilization. we've seen every election over and over the impact of the attacks on reproductive rights and voters know that republicans want to put in place a nationwide abortion ban. so this is going to be a motivating issue and we know also for millions of voters abortion will be on the ballot in november. many states have ballot initiatives and that is going to be a motivating factor. so folks care about the economy, affordability, they want to make sure governance is working and they care about reproductive rights as whole and you are going to see that pretty much every election across the country. >> congresswoman, chair of the dccc, thank you so much for being with us this morning. >> thank you. stay with us, there's much more of "the weekend" straight ahead. but wic otc just one pill a day blocks heartburn for a full 24 hours. for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. ♪ music ♪ ♪ unnecessary action hero! ♪ relief, prilosec otc. ♪ unnecessary. ♪ was that necessary? no. neither is missing your daughter's competition to do payroll. with paycom, employees do their own payroll so you don't have to miss your daughter's big day. time to shine. get paycom and make the unnecessary unnecessary. the cockroach. resilient creatures. true miracles of evolution. where there is one, others aren't far behind. always scavenging for food, the cockroach... well that's horrifying. ortho home defense max indoor insect barrier. one application kills and prevents bugs for 365 days. not in my house you don't. nature is wild. your home doesn't have to be. you know something that strucken about trump on stage in philadelphia was who he was joined by. michael, you might recall david mccormack who's currently the republican candidate for senate in pennsylvania and had previously tried to achieve the republican nomination. donald trump had come in. endorsed mehmet oz and we all remember how that turned out. but now he's on stage with donald trump as donald trump is repeating the big lie. talking about how democrats stole the election in 2020. because of covid. saying it was egregious. if you stand beside him when he is spouting those lies, those lies then become your own. >> yeah, they are your own. and you know, a couple of takeaways about that tableau with trump and mccormack. 2020 is not '24 and '24 is not 2020. in other words this is a very different cycle politically. mccormack should have been the nominee in that last cycle and probably would have really changed up the game there. but mehmet oz was the guy. and for whatever reasons in donald trump's head, he went with it. now they're trying to come back and reposition pennsylvania in the senate race in a way that they didn't before. but the lects rat has changed. a whole lot has changed with trump. and so to your point about the -- you know, the lies sticking, yeah, they stick a little bit more now. and because donald trump is the convicted felon. and we have all these other matters that are going on. and if you are looking at the race and how it's played out so far, even with all of the endorsements and the support behind mccormack. he's trailing casey by six, seven, eight points depending on the polls and that's consistent among pennsylvania voters. so it speaks to me to a broader problem republicans are going to have in some of these senate races around the country. and i'm -- you know, one of the very few who think that the democrats are more competitive for the u.s. senate than people may think. and this is an example of it. because in another life, mccormack wins that seat. but that moment -- that life is no more. it's gone. and they not adjusted to the new realities that i just talked about. and it will be interesting to see how the campaign and trump align with try to align with the voters with where they are versus where the voters have med to. >> the other thing on thursday and so glad you got to the most burning question on the minds of the viewers. which is meme wanting to understand why president biden and his team when given the choice chose to podium positioning rather than choosing to have the final word. we are like well don't you want the final word? >> not necessarily. >> right, you delivered sort of a counternarrative that i had not entirely considered. >> yeah. no. that's why i said i love the strategicness there. the idea that you are going to get the last word be given to the guy that's probably the most outrageous, let his lies hang in the public ether and let them absorb that and confirm for the voters just how bad an actor he is. because trump at the end of the day will not be able to help himself. and will say i mean, look, we watched the man rant for how long? talking about electric batteries in sharks. so, you know, without that audience, without the stimulant, yes, let him expose himself and i think this -- debate is going to be the rawest debate we've ever seen between two candidates going at each other. and it's going to be fascinating to watch how they adapt to each other in a space where their words are not reinforced by a sycophantic audience. >> may just start clapping for himself. >> yeah. just -- [ laughter ] we've got more of "the weekend" after break and michael is not done. after today's show he is filling in for our friend on inside with jen psaki. who are you speaking with, michael? >> i'm speaking with raymond about his new book "appearance in wonderlands. stay tuned and tune in for that. old spice gentlema super . 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