everybody, every brilliant mind considering a career in public service, particularly in the sciences. it's such a terrible precedent that they're setting in terms of how people get treated in those important jobs, and we need the best people in those jobs. >> the best, the best. and pandemics do not check your party registration. so we need the best people to come and know they're serving and just doing good and not going to be under threat. no question. >> seriously, yeah. thanks, jen. much appreciated, my friend. >> thank you. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. really happy to have you here. i have a quick thing to tell you at the top here. do you have your phone with you? your phone has an app on it that you may or may not ever use, but it's called podcasts, or some version of that. whatever kind of phone you have, there is an app on your phone for podcasts. if you open up that app and you search for my name, if you search for maddow,m-a-d-d-o-w, one of the things that's going to come up is ultra. you might remember i made a podcast called ultra. it did really well. it won a big journalism award, the hillman prize. steven spielberg bought the rights to it, so the screenplay is being written right now. pinch me. ultra did great. we were all really, really, really proud of it. but the reason i am suggesting you go to your podcast app today is that as of today, there is a season two of "ultra." it is finally ready. we just put out the two-minute trailer for season two of "ultra" today. you can listen to that now. you can click there to follow the show. to follow the show means that you get every episode when they come out. it's free. this is just going to be eight episodes total. i will tell you "ultra" season two is a little bit scary. it's also kind of funny. the trailer is out today. the first episode comes out monday. the trailer for the new season of "ultra" is finally up. we've been working on it for a really long time. i hope you like it. i'll tell you more about what it's about next week when we've got the first full episode coming up. oh, and there's another thing i'm supposed to tell you. it is -- it is free to listen to the whole podcast and follow the show, absolutely. but if you want to, you can pay $2.99 a month for this new thing that's called msnbc premium. and if you pay $2.99 a month, that gives you all the episodes a few days earlier than everybody else gets them, and you will have no ads when you are listening. msnbc premium is a new thing. you sign up for that at apple podcasts if you want. okay. now, that's really it. i will leave you alone about that because now i want to talk about something crazy that just happened in michigan. all right. this was on thursday in michigan. on thursday last week, you might remember something was going on. the country was sort of distracted. yes, every news organization in the country went into warp drive when the jury in the donald trump criminal trial in new york announced they had a verdict. and you know the story from there. 34 felony counts. the jury found him guilty on all 34 of the felony charges, whereupon he totally melted down, earning what i think was really the headline for the ages from that day. quote, convicted, comma, trump blames judge, jury, and a country gone to hell. what a nice man. what a leader, right? but while that was happening in new york on thursday, there was a big surprise in michigan. now, do you remember seeing this tape? if you're a longtime viewer of the show, you might recognize this. this was from right after the 2020 election. it was december 2020, december 14th. this is the state capitol in michigan, and we played this on the air at the time that it happened because it really -- this really appeared to be a crime being committed there on tape, and an important crime. these are republicans in michigan showing up at the door of the state capitol, demanding that they be let inside because they insisted that they were michigan's votes for the electoral college. and since december 14th was the day all the states were casting their electoral votes, these guys demanded to be let into the state capitol to cast michigan's electoral college votes for trump, which is not the way it works because trump lost michigan. biden won. but nevertheless, these republicans were pretending to be the real electors and demanding to be let in. and that police officer stopped them, and he was very polite. he was like the soul of patience. he was very kind to them, but he was very, very firm with them. >> so you are telling us we can't enter? >> yes. >> okay. would you say that on the record for us, please? >> [ inaudible ]. >> what did he say? >> he said we can't enter. >> what i said was per the capitol commission, per the governor's office, and per the speaker of the house, per the speaker of the senate, the capitol is closed unless you have an office here to conduct business today or if you are taking part in the electoral college process. anybody else is not permitted to come in. >> we're electors. we're electors. >> the electors are already here. they've been checked in. >> well, not all of them. >> they're also electors. >> the capitol is closed. all 16 electors that have been advised by the governor's staff and were going to be here to vote in the electoral college have been checked in. they're already here. >> they've been checked in. they are already here. i know what electors are. they're here already. you're not them. he's so patient, right? but he stops them from what they were otherwise intending to do, which was get themselves into the state capitol. that was in 2020. that was the middle of the effort to try to overturn the election results and have trump stay in power even though he lost. i say that looked like a crime being committed and an important one because those fake electors have since been criminally indicted for what they did there, for conspiracy to commit forgery and conspiracy to commit election law forgery. the 16 fake trump electors were all charged with those felony counts. and in that criminal case in michigan, there were 11 other people besides the fake electors who were listed as unindicted co-conspirators in that same case, including former president trump himself and his then-lawyer, rudy giuliani, who has since had his law license revoked. the prosecutor described trump's status in the michigan case by saying, quote, he is a part of the investigation, but he hasn't been charged with a crime yet. hasn't been charged yet. in court proceedings on that criminal case last week -- because, again, there are felony charges pending against the fake electors themselves. last week, there was testimony from that particular police official, the same guy who had to personally bar the door of the state capitol against the fake electors when they were trying to get in. and what he just testified in court last week is that on thursday, while trump was being convicted in his new york criminal case, he, this michigan state police captain now, he was being interviewed by the fbi and by federal prosecutors from washington, d.c. wait a second. i thought he was testifying in a state case, a state criminal case that's been brought against those fake electors. yes, he was testifying in the state criminal case, but he testified that he had just been in touch with federal prosecutors and the fbi. so in that michigan fake electors prosecution, michigan is one of four states where there are state criminal charges pending against trump's fake electors. in that state, trump is named assage unindicted co-conspirator. that prosecutor in the michigan state case also says that state criminal case there is still open, still ongoing. they're still investigating. but now only the day trump was convicted in his new york case, we find out in surprise testimony that federal prosecutors and fbi agents, as of right now, as of thursday, are interviewing people who saw what happened with the attempted overthrow of the election in michigan. there haven't been federal charges brought in michigan, right? i mean trump is already facing federal criminal charges for trying to overthrow the government and stay in power after losing the 2020 election. those charges were brought in d.c. but it would appear that that federal investigation into that overall matter is still open if federal prosecutors from d.c. and the fbi are still investigating and still interviewing people right now. if they are doing so -- and according to that police captain's testimony they are -- i would guess that the fbi and federal prosecutors are still looking into the michigan fake electors matter, presumably with an eye toward a possible new federal indictment or -- i mean there's already the federal criminal indictment against trump that references the fake electors scheme broadly. maybe these interviews with important figures in this matter in michigan indicates the possibility of a superseding federal indictment. maybe additional charges for the same defendant who has already been charged, trump. maybe potentially adding more defendants to it. we do not know. but that michigan state case is still open and ongoing, and it's apparently a matter of active investigation by federal prosecutors and the fbi as well. knock me over with a feather, right? i didn't -- that was unexpected for me. it's a reminder that things may not unfold the way any of us is expecting. and you may think you're sort of running through the tape on some of this stuff, and then you look ahead and realize there's a whole lot more tape at lots more intervals. i mean who knows how this is going to unfold and for how long. this is the first former president to ever be criminally indicted. then he got criminally indicted three more times. he was the first former president to face a criminal trial. then he became the first former president ever convicted of a felony. then he was convicted of two felonies, then three, then four, then ultimately 34. he is named as an unindicted co-conspirator in the criminal case against arizona republicans who helped try to overthrow the election results in that state. he's named as an unindicted co-conspirator in michigan as well. now it looks like there's at least the possibility of additional federal charges that may attain to the michigan shenanigans in particular. things are not necessarily going to unfold the way we are expecting. and none of this is over. i mean, yes, if trump gets elected in november, that's one thing. but if he loses in november, this is all going to go on for a very long time in lots of different places, which is important for us to think about as a country because we have a legal system that we use for all sorts of things, including for holding people accountable when they try to overthrow the government. and we've now got not just trump and his most rabid followers, but we've now got a whole republican party that is on the record, deeply and radically invested in delegitimizing the american legal system in the eyes of the american people, which means in practical terms that the people who end up as part of these cases, the people who end up playing a role in the legal system as it pertains to trump, you know, sometimes it's by choice. sometimes it's not. these people are going to need protecting in an ongoing way. stormy daniels, to whom the hush money payment was made that was falsely booked in trump's business records, which is why he was convicted of 34 felonies last thursday -- stormy daniels has now done her first interview since the verdict. and in that first interview, you can see that she's just -- i mean it's an emotional interview, but you can see she's overwhelmed in particular by the revelation that even though this one trump case is over, this whole thing is never going to be over for her. >> it's not how i feel. it's how i don't feel. i'm obviously glad of the verdict because in a way, it also proves that i was telling the truth, that i was not paid for sex. you know, it was not a prostitution job. i was not an escort. i was not a prostitute. but i guess i just thought that i would put the bow on the package, and it would be all tied up and good, and it's not. it's not really any different except that i've -- you know, the good part is i don't have to go to court again because that's never fun. you always feel like you're the bad guy even when you're not because just being up on that stand is so intimidating with the jurors and stuff looking at you. and i'm glad that, you know, some stuff came out in court that i wanted to come out, and it proved, like i said, i've been telling the truth the entire time. but at the same time, emotionally and the responses and stuff, it's -- it's not over. it's -- it's probably, i realize -- i don't want to start crying again. i realized today that it's actually never going to be over for me. >> did you speak to judge merchan, who is now obviously considering what sentence to pass. if you could speak to him, what would you say? >> he has the patience of a saint. and that he's brave, i think. and my condolences because i know what his life is going to be like at least in the immediate future, and it scares me. and i fear -- i fear for the jurors as well. >> i fear for the jurors as well. nbc news reporting tonight that the other main prosecution witness in the trump criminal trial, michael cohen, has, since the verdict, had his whole family doxxed. people have posted street addresses and other personally identifying information for his wife and for his children. nbc news also reported that in the immediate wake of the verdict, pro-trump message boards posted a high volume of violent threats toward both the prosecutor and the judge in the new york case, including what purported to be the home address of district attorney alvin bragg and what purported to be the home addresses of some of the jurors from the case. this is what it's like for people who are part of the legal system when the legal system is getting donald trump in trouble. and this is an ongoing thing. this is not going away. there's lots of pending cases against trump. and these threats and the harassment and intimidation of people who are involved in the legal system, people who are witnesses, jurors, prosecutors, judges, court personnel -- trump, i mean, encourages it indirectly every time he makes individual people in these legal proceedings a personal target for his criticism and vitriol and often his lies. he's never, ever discouraged his supporters from mounting the kind of harassment and intimidation campaigns that they have against everyone involved in these cases, including like the court clerks and the family members of the judges and the witnesses themselves and their families too. and it's every time, right? it's not just this current case. last summer, trump supporters circulated the purported names and photographs and home addresses of the grand jury, members of the grand jury in fulton county, georgia, after that grand jury voted to indict trump there. this year, before trump was convicted, in march and april, reuters counted at least 152 posts on three pro-trump websites urging the beating or killing of judge merchan or judge engoron or judge mcafee in georgia. one january 6th convict, who has already served his prison sentence for taking part in the trump mob attack on congress, he posted on twitter a photo of prosecutor alvin bragg in a noose. it is terrorizing to the people involved in these cases, and it is systemic. they do it to all of them with all of the cases. it's designed to make the legal system unworkable when it comes to trump, right? it's designed to make people unwilling to participate in the system if trump is involved in the case because you and your family will be put in danger, right? it's designed, if you are part of a case involving trump, if you are considering bringing m sort of legal action, however well justified that relates to trump, they want you to fear for your life and for the lives of your family. that's the basic idea behind it, right? we're all supposed to be so scared of what he'll do or supposed to be scared of how crazy his supporters will go that, you know, to be safe, we should just let him do whatever he wants. no matter what it is, just let him get away with it. because anything that annoys him, anything that punishes him for what he's done, they'll get so mad, and we should be so scared of what they'll do because, oh, you wouldn't like them when they're mad. trump was asked this weekend about his potentially being sent to prison when he gets sentenced next month. he said this in response. he said, quote, i don't know that the public would stand for it. i'm not sure the public would stand for it. i think it would be tough for the public to take. you know, at a certain point, there's a breaking point. he's saying, you jail me, there will be a breaking point. the public won't stand for it. sounds like a threat, right? it is a threat. it's the same threat he always makes because he wants us all to feel threatened. but he makes the same threat all the time, right? september 2022, after the fbi served the search warrant at his home at mar-a-lago, he says, quote, i don't know how much more our country will be willing to withstand. two months later, december 2022, all caps, the people of this country aren't going to take it much longer. then he was asked on a radio show about the possibility of him being criminally indicted. he said, i think if it happened, he said, i'd think you'd have problems in this country the likes of which we'd never seen before. i don't think the people of the united states would stand for it. then in march 2023, he said if he was indicted, it would rain down death and destruction that he said would be, quote, catastrophic for our country. death and destruction if he were indicted. then he was indicted. then last summer after he was indicted, he was asked about a possible prison sentence. he says, quite, i think it's a very dangerous thing to even talk about because we do have a tremendously passionate group of voters. i think it would be very dangerous. very, very dangerous. so, yeah, now he's threatening again that there's going to be catastrophic civil war-level violence if anything bad happens to him, like an indictment, which has happened four times, like an arraignment, which has happened you multiple times, like a potential prison sentence, which stay tuned. at every step of the way, he has made the same threat. at every step of the way, he has shaken his fist at the country and warned that if anything happens to him, his followers will rise up and level the place. death and destruction like nothing the country has ever seen before. it's always the same threat. it is not actually what they do because it is not actually how the country feels. if you look at the polling since the verdict in the new york case came down, there's been three national poll ps on reaction to the verdict so far. all of them show that most people in this country think the verdict was the right thing. the country is not rising up en masse to defend him. by and large the country thinks he committed crimes, and it makes sense he was convicted of them. these threats that if anything happens to him in the legal system, the country won't stand for it, and there will be mass violence, and there be blood in the streets, and there will be riots, you'll see it rising up like the country has never seen before, that is not happening. what is happening is his followers are terrorizing individual people involved in the legal process. and the republican party at the highest level and with almost total uniformity is simultaneously telling the american people that the american legal system is bunk and they shouldn't respect it and they shouldn't trust it. at republicans at the state le