tonight on all in. >> breaking news has come in that we are reading across the newswires, guilty. count one. guilty verdict, count two. guilty verdict, count four. so three and four. >> donald j trump still guilty on 34 felony counts. >> no one ever says that about me. i would like them to say we are to have a little sorrow for this man. >> in the republican standardbearer reveals that his conviction is an honor. >> in a way i am honored. salacious. by the way. and nothing ever happened. if it were george washington, was he a bad boy here, was he a bad boy there? >> tonight, major questions about the sentencing of donald trump. >> how is that going to affect the rnc? does he have confinement? if he goes to prison, what does that look like? plus, the trump campaign threats to those who won't back a felon. and why dreams of a hung jury should give us all a little hope. >> the 12 everyday jurors about it to make a decision based on the evidence and the law. >> all in starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes. today, for the first time, america's woke up in a country where the presumptive republican nominee has been convicted of 34 felonies. to adopt a phrase that i become very comical over the last eight years, it looks like donald trump is finally not wriggled his way out of this jam. in this one instance there is finally been some account ability for a man who up until now has managed to avoid it at nearly every turn. today in a traditionally unfocused press conference the atlantic deemed a quote vocal rampage, the convicted ex- president made his way to a rolodex of grievances, lashing out at the judge, the media, michael cohen, stormy daniels, the defunct january 6th committee, and just about everyone else. >> this is a case where if they can do this to me, they can do this to anyone. i wanted to testify. the theory is you never testify, because anybody, if it were george washington, don't testify. because they will get you on something that you said slightly wrong and they will sue you for perjury. they were able to use people's salacious, and by the way, nothing ever happened. i don't feel 77. nobody ever says that about me. i would like them to say gee, we have to have a little sorry for this man. they just don't say that about me. and by the way, this is a highly qualified lawyer. i am not allowed to use his name because of the gag order. but he is a sleazebag. i am very honored to be involved because we are fighting for the constitution. >> and went on and on like that, more or less, for more than half an hour. and while this is something of a tired thought experiment, i do wonder what the reaction would be if president biden delivered a similarly rambling and incoherent address the day after he was convicted of nearly three dozen felonies. for his part, the president briefly addressed yesterday's news this afternoon. >> the american principal that no one is above the law was reaffirmed. donald trump was given every opportunity to defend himself. it was a state case, not a federal case. and it was heard by a jury of 12 citizens. the 12 americans. 12 people like you. after careful deliberations the jury reached a unanimous verdict. it is reckless, it is dangerous , it is irresponsible for anyone to say this was rigged just because they don't like the verdict. our justice system has endured for nearly 250 years. and it is a cornerstone of america, our justice system. we should respect it and not allow anyone to tear it down. >> it was a forceful rebuke of trump, and unenforceable sentiment about the rule of law. hammering home to voters that his political opponent is a convicted criminal. as politico reports, the president's campaign team does not view his opponents conviction as likely to meaningfully change the trajectory of the campaign. and it's true, we don't yet know if or how trumps conviction can impact the campaign. not at all. i would argue on the other hand, generally holding everything else constant is never a good thing when a nominee for one of the major two political parties is convicted of 34 felonies. it might be prudent to remind voters of that fact whenever possible. again, just spit balling here. the question of how trumps's conviction will alter this case of what one of many open questions. we still don't know what the presidents sentence will be or if they will seek incarceration. if jail time is on the table we don't know what that would look like for a criminal who is legally entitled to secrecy -- action. it is unclear if trump violated his gag order yet again when he attacked michael cohen in that clip i played a moment ago. it goes without saying we are genuinely out past the known universe here legally and politically. donald trump is a convicted criminal. he has been found guilty on all charges by a jury of his peers. he also very well may be the next president of these united states. what happens next is anyone's guess. i am joined now by the utah democrat on the oversight committee. he served on the january 6th committee and was lead manager in donald trump's second impeachment trial. it's good to see you, congressman. we got a chance to talk to you last night in the aftermath of the verdict. i would like to start with i asking about the reaction we are seeing from the republican party as a whole. i am a little taken aback by it. the level of vitriol, the unanimous performative outrage about this, the stridently authoritarian language, the threats for reprisal of political prosecutions, et cetera. what you make of all this? >> it just demonstrates the rigid obedience and coldness of the republican party. but it does not make any sense in terms of their history. i was thinking back about bill clinton's impeachment, when they impeached him over a sexual encounter and then saying it depends on what the meaning of the word is is. can you imagine if bill clinton had actually paid $130,000 in hush money to cover up and then laundered it in different ways to cook the books? could you imagine what they can starr report would've looked like then? they would've been calling for capital punishment of oakland. they were riding so high and mighty on the horse of moral righteousness. and here they totally deflect from all the facts of what happened. they basically spit in the face of the jury system. they completely disregard the fact that donald trump had every right in the full panoply of rights afforded to criminal defendants in the united states of america including the presumption of innocence, a jury trial, the right to testify if you wanted to, which he didn't, and so on. but they abandoned all of that. and it is just shocking. but it is fitting for a party which is now walking down the road of donald trump and vladimir putin and viktor orban. and they have a lot more in common with the far right parties abroad than they have in common with the party that abraham lincoln created, which was a pro-freedom, prounion, anti-conspiracy theory, pro- rule of law, pro-constitution party. and they have abandoned all of that. >> the speaker of the house, mike johnson, said he knows some of the supreme court justices personally and he is sure they are as upset about this as he is and thinks the supreme court should step in somehow. again, i am not a civil procedure buff personally or federal criminal procedure buff, but that they should step in and vacate the conviction. what do you think? >> well, you know, the mob lawyers and mob bosses always say that in the courtroom it is not what you know, it is who you know. and it is not whether the law is on your side, it is whether the judge is on your side. and basically, from donald trump on down now in the gop we have a mob conception of the rule of law. we know some justices on the supreme court. we can overturn this election. we can reverse the verdicts that 12 jurors found. we can deal with this through the connections we have. and that, of course, just invites an inquiry into how did all these people get onto the supreme court? what was the role of corporate dark money? and how did they keep the attorney general of the united states, merrick garland, then the chief judge of the d.c. circuit off the supreme court? he happens to be my constituent, so i followed that when closely. mitch mcconnell said 11 months was too short a period in which to conduct a hearing. and to put someone new on the supreme court, it should be left up to the people in the next election. even though barack obama had been elected into one of those true blue verifiable four year presidential terms that the president gets under the constitution. but when ruth bader ginsburg died in late september of 2020, in the next nine or 10 weeks they barreled through the nomination of amy coney barrett or whatever and totally abandoned the idea that that was too short a period of time. the voting had already started, early voting had already started in a number of states and they pushed it through. so we have a court that is totally gerrymandered at this point with the most ethically suspect practices, like they have billionaire sugar daddies who fly them all over the world and pay for different family expenses like private school tuition and cars. so the whole justice system has been brought into disgrace by the tactics of the right wing in america. >> yeah, it was striking to me, johnson saying i know them personally and i think they would be upset about this. that is quite a thing to say about the people who may eventually, i think this case probably will reach them in some form or fashion. finally, on this question of political prosecution, i mean, obviously the rallying cry of the 2016 campaign was lock her up. next was a call for imprisoning a political opponent. during his term in office the president routinely and publicly urged political prosecution of his enemies and opponents. on jeff sessions who he kept score on for not doing it, and on bill barr. this is a constant theme in the trump years. now you have all these republicans sort of setting the groundwork, saying look, with you pushed us into it. when we get back in power we are going to engage in political prosecution. >> i mean, that is fetishistic rhetoric and fetishistic topics where all politics are seen as ad hominem and character assassination, using what should have been an objective law enforcement system to target enemies. and you have a situation with donald trump who is like a one- man crime wave and who is out there violating all sorts of ethical boundaries. and when the law finally catches up with them they say okay, now you're really throwing down, we are just going to turn the guns on you as if they haven't been trying to do that to joe biden for the last year in the oversight committee where they cooked up this completely farcical impeachment crusade. but they have not been able to find it, despite their very liberal distortion of all of the evidence and the facts. >> it fell apart under its own wake, because the facts were not there. and in the end there is something reassuring that in some form or fashion and in some venues, the actual, factual basis of this stuff matters. thank you so much. >> you bet. >> kristy greenberg is the former deputy chief for the southern district of new york. tonya perry also represented michael cohen during this trial, they join me now. i want to start with you in both of those roles that we had one last night as michael cohen's attorney, and obviously you know the criminal justice system very well. we are going back and forth today internally on whether the gag order is still in effect. do you know if it is or not? >> great question. michael called me today and he said i think trump just violated the gag order, calling me a sleaze ball and all manner of things. i had to look it up. it seems that justice merchan has not lifted it, so it is still in place and will remain so until either he loses jurisdiction on appeal or he lifts it. >> that is your understanding? because he clearly was attacking michael cohen as one of the witnesses. there are some people who say the gag order is there to preserve the integrity of the trial, the trial is over, so maybe it is gone. but your understanding is that it is still in effect? >> i had thought that was the purpose, that you don't want to infect the jurors or the jury pool before they are impaneled. you don't want to intimidate the witnesses. in some logical way you think well, it is done when the trial is done. but no, there still is a sentencing. there still is this maybe just penumbra or cloud that still hangs over. i think that passions are inflamed, for sure, anger around the country. and so i know personally from michael's experience, and even derivatively from my own, that there is a tremendous amount of rancor, to say the least, out there that is still directed at the trial witnesses and no doubt at the jurors, where their anonymity to be lost. that will remain in place, of course. >> yes, although there was some reporting today of certain message boards that are fans of the former president, trying to get people to go after them. let's talk brass tacks here on what happens next. a lot of questions about sentencing. i guess the first question is okay, so that sentencing on july 11th might get pushed back a little bit, but it's probably going to happen sometime this summer. what do you think is reasonable? just level set for us. if you are working in that office, to ask for, or for a judge to grant for sentencing. >> the first thing they are going to do is look at what probation recommends in the report. >> which, that's going to happen in probably the next few weeks that he will sit down with a probation officer? presumably in new york? >> yes. >> sitting there next to the secret service? >> presumably so. >> with the p.o. there? and the p.o. was saying okay, so what was your last job? i'm doing a bit, but that is what's going to happen? >> yes. and they will go through all of their standard questions, though, again, so much of it is public knowledge with him. so it may be a bit redundant. but they will go through that process with him and come up with a recommendation. the parties will both get a copy of that report. generally the report is not made public, that you will see snippets of that report in both the briefings from either side when they quote to that report. >> in the report will generate a recommendation? like a top line, like four months, time served, home confinement, or whatever? >> yes, that is typically what you see. >> that is the basic text that is the template? >> yes. again, neither party is, neither party needs to follow that. but generally the court does give that a fair amount of weight because they tend to be more neutral. so both parties will look at that, they will then decide look, i think in this circumstance in terms of thinking what affairs sentenced here would be, one thing that you look at, one factor is relative culpability. michael cohen has already been sentence for the same thing, and he was sentenced to three years in prison. granted, he was also sentence for other crimes and not just this one. however, that was part of the sentence. and during that sentence, judge polly said, i am paraphrasing here, but that those campaign- finance violations were a danger to democracy. and they were serious enough for him to use that kind of language. and we heard that same language in the closing here. joshua stein last said you heard from todd blanche that influencing an election, conspiring to do that, that is democracy. no, this was subversion of democracy. we need the electorate to be informed, to have access to accurate information, and this was an attempt to defraud the voters. so when you have that same language mirroring in a sentence of someone who is, i think admittedly, less culpable than the person he was doing this at the direction of, it is hard to see how the prosecutors would not ask here. >> i would just add in, another thing the judge looks at is comparisons. other sentences that like defendants have received, not just in this case, michael cohen, as you say, but other defendants who have been convicted. >> defrauding business records. >> correct. i looked at this, i co-authored a paper for the brookings institution and we looked at hundreds of other sentencings coming out of new york for the exact same crime, and always with a bump up to a felony, in this case. and people get prison terms. not just, even first-time offenders. even for the same type of crime they will get a prison term. in this case we have someone who subverted an election, as the jury found, and also has not only been non-repentant, of course, he did not plead guilty to this. he was convicted. that he has constantly thumbed his nose at this judge and system, and has been continuous. >> yeah, personally my feelings about prison are we wildly over incarcerate, wildly too long sentences, the american sentencing system is messed up. my desire to see a prisoner go to jail is zero. i will say, it is interesting that you know that. i've been seeing this cavalcade of rich men, generally, elon musk and others being like can you imagine, this is nuts, someone going to jail for this. like yeah, dude, it actually does happen. i had to break it to you. thank you both. coming up, they wouldn't do it for any other member of their party, so why is nearly every republican of official going to bat for donald trump? that is next. i have moderate to severe crohn's disease. now, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are looking up, i've got symptom relief. ♪ ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ feel significant symptom relief at 4 weeks with skyrizi, including less abdominal pain and fewer bowel movements. skyrizi is the first il-23 inhibitor that can deliver remission and visibly improve damage 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want to miss that. that's amazing doc. mobile savings are calling. visit xfinitymobile.com to learn more. doc? in some ways the most revealing moment amid all the reaction to donald trump's conviction yesterday which flew under the radar was an exchange online between one moderate republican and the trump campaign worker. it started with former maryland republican governor larry hogan, who is now running for senate in that state. he left office very popular in maryland, a very blue state, and his presence in the race as a republican nominee creates a real issue with the democrats. it expands the mat for republicans. democrats not to spend money on that race. obviously a guy like that is going to have to distance himself from trump who is rarely unpopular in maryland. so he sent out a very carefully worded post saying, quote, regardless of the result i urge all americans to respect the verdict and the legal process. and you see how adept this was, when you look at the timestamp. 4:52 p.m. right in the sweet spot, minutes after it was announced that a verdict had been reached, but several minutes before the verdict was read. this was a response larry hogan received from a top trump campaign official. you just ended your campaign. you, republican governor who dared to speak the very basic american tenant before averted, we should respect the legal process, you are done. this was just part of the sort of mob style pressure campaign on republicans to stand behind the felony convicted candidate. here is laura ingram on trump tv. >> i can't help but notice, and maybe it has changed over the last few minutes, of the people who haven't come out to condemn what happened in lower manhattan . haven't heard from mitch mcconnell again, and less it was in the last 20 minutes. mitch mcconnell stands up with the rule of law and all these great traditional pics, and silence. >> lo and behold, almost an hour and a half later, mitch mcconnell dutifully put out his statement. these charges never should've been brought in the first place. i expect the conviction to be overturned on appeal. this enforcement operation is happening because the trump people and the fox people and most of the people in the upper echelons of the party understand the only way to really bring trump down, to end his political career is if republicans turn against him. as long as they stay unified, no matter what he does, no matter how important or how dangerous or how criminal or how vile, no matter how much of a threat he is to the nation, if they all band together, then in a polarized landscape they could basically keep them afloat and make it essentially a coin toss. that is why they dressed up like him during the trial and rushed to debase themselves in cringe inducing fashion on any live tv camera they can find. >> this is the soviet style thing. show me the person and i will show you the crime. >> this is a political smear job, this was an attack job. this is what you see them banana republics. >> this is what you see in communist countries. this is the most outrageous travesty i have ever seen, and the problem here is democrats have crossed this line. >> this is a justice system that hunts republicans while protecting democrats. this was certainly a hoax, a sham it. >> yesterday was a sad day for america. you had a partisan witch hunt in new york. >> this is a total travesty. we should not mince any words here. this is an extremely dangerous day for our country. >> do we want to become a country where we try to jail are political opponents? >> justice is on the court, i know many of them personally. i think they are as deeply concerned about that as we are. so i think they will set this straight. >> there've only been two times in trump's political career where that dynamic of republican unanimity was broken. where trump was near political death. one was in the aftermath of january 6, the violent assault on the capital that he stirred up. when everyone was criticizing him. when the blood was still on the floor of the capital, including lindsey graham and kevin mccarthy, remember that? trump's approval rating drop below 40%, the lowest level in his reach. mitch mcconnell was testing the waters for a vote for an impeachment conviction. if it had not been for that man, mitch mcconnell's abject, enduringly pathetic cowardice, and mccarthy's relentless quest to have the third shortest speakership in history, not to mention the legitimate fear that republican senators had for their families about violence, we would not have this issue now. they could've just voted to convict him and bar him from future office. done. ironically enough, the other time, the other near political death experience was in the wake of the access hollywood tape. just about every elected republican tried to distance themselves and criticize it. republican national committee shares actually considering how to get him off the ticket. but trump managed to hold things together, due in no small part to the fact that right at that moment he got a guy named michael cullen, his lawyer, to pay to keep the porn start from talking. so the republicans never heard about that story, nor did the the public, which could have been the political deathblow. the lesson he learned was if you enforce this totalitarian unanimity you can keep chugging along. it is a wildly dangerous lesson, because they will do this no matter what he does, and no matter how bad it gets. *n power e*trade's easy to-use tools make complex trading less complicated. custom scans can help you find new trading opportunities, while an earnings tool helps you plan your trades and stay on top of the market. e*trade from morgan stanley in our family there was a passion for glass making that's passed down through the generations. on ancestry i was able to actually put together our family tree. each person is a glass worker. we stood on some pretty broad shoulders to get to where we are today. 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not because of democrats. it is because republicans are like we don't need this dude. why do we need this dude? get rid of him. you are done. that is the real pressure point that they need to make sure it never happens. >> yes, absolutely. they are not making arguments, they are making declarations. they are making threats. so here you have a reasonable statement by a former republican governor, -- >> before the verdict actually >> yeah, and his career is going to end, that is going to be a friend. it is constantly the same pattern, which is luster, threaten, intimidate. never really dialogue and debate argue, it is bluster, threaten, intimidate. and it works for them. it has been working for a long time. there are individual republicans will have the courage to stand up, and when they do, they are swarmed. their career ends. talk to jeff blake. bob corker. met romney. again and again. this is a tactic that works for maga in consolidating its hold on the gop. so they're going to keep doing it. they will do it if there is a verdict in the documents trial, in the january 6 trial. they will do it with the same language and the same words every time. >> and it is not irrational. that is my point here, because people look at this and think how is this a tight race? and part of the way i view this, it is complicated. i think the country has been through quite a ride post- covid. inflation is high. there are a bunch of reasons that the race is where it is. but one thing i think is this insight, that if you turn everything into a 50-50 issue, you know, particularly for disengaged people, they say one thing, they say the other. if you never turn on your side you can kind of keep things athletic librium through thick and thin. >> you can, except there is a small caveat here. i do think this conviction actually has some potential to break through with some of these lower information voters. on the one hand, if you are the biden team, it has to be frustrating to say okay, we can do this messaging change or this message and change but we are losing the people who will never pay attention to any of our messaging at all. but the words trump convicted or trump phelan are things that breakthrough even to the most disengaged voters, which is why the republicans are pumping the volume up to 11, 12, 13 here, to prevent that message from breaking through. >> yeah, there is an urgency to the messaging in the last 24 hours that is really striking. to your point, it doesn't come from a position of strength. there is a little bit of desperation to it. >> sure, there is desperation. the underlying facts of the case here are really ugly, so let's suppose you are a voter who has not really followed this, you don't know what it's about. and you find out trump is convicted. why was he convicted? he paid hush money to a porn star that he was sleeping with when his wife had just delivered their youngest child? what? so this is the kind of thing that the underlying facts are really bad. now, there are legal issues with the case that will be handled on appeal that i have concerns about, but the facts here are very bad for donald trump. so, to get it to breakthrough they have to stop it from breaking through, in other words. >> david french, great to have you on. thanks a lot. >> thank you. still to come, donald trump's friends at trump tv have a rough afternoon. >> this is tyranny. this is not what is about to happen in america. if there is an election you let the combatants go at it in the election. you don't go and try to lock up your opponent. this is america. we are not supposed to be a third world country. >> how the lock her up chance have been forgotten. is not funny? fox notes -- news goes through the five stages of grief in real-time. we will show it to your next. so, what are you thinking? 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[music playing] are your gutters clogged? cleaning them can be dangerous, mucky, yuck. get leaffilter. it's as easy as one, two, three. call or click today. get your free gutter inspection on your schedule and get leaffilter installed in as little as a few hours. you'll never have to clean out your gutters again, guaranteed. get leaf filter today. call 833 leaffilter or go to leaffilter.com as easy as 1, 2, 3 everybody wants super straight, super white teeth. they want that hollywood white smile. new sensodyne clinical white provides 2 shades whiter teeth and 24/7 sensitivity protection. i think it's a great product. it's going to help a lot of patients. >> hey, guys, i'm here with your favorite president, we are cranking out a couple of mean tweets at the courthouse. >> i know my son is doing very well in social media, i'm proud of him. >> stay tuned, it will be a doozy. >> well, that is enough does for about four months. that was the defendant, donald j trump with his son, don junior leading the verdict with pretty good spirits, i guess. but donald trump's fiance was bringing the news on her lifestream in the news covered quickly. to make the verdict right now? okay. okay. so the breaking news that has come in and that we are reading across the news is guilty. count one. guilty verdict, count two. guilty verdict, count four. so three and four. count five, guilty verdict. account 14, guilty verdict. okay. count 15, guilty verdict as well. >> i have to say, at a broadcasting craft level, you have to respected. but emotionally, it was like a kid watching their toy train clash in real-time. and in the days since that feeling has been replicated over and over again on fox were conservative media host and their guests are going through it. it being four of the five stages of grief. denial, anger, bargaining, depression. not much acceptance. >> i was really shocked by how gleeful some people were, that there is a tendency in our politics to not treat people as people. >> the glee we are seeing, as far as i am concerned, is un- american. and this is a sad day for america. we went over a cliff. >> you have a feel of a canned hunt, where people are allowed to shoot game in a small cage. >> they dehumanize donald trump. they are treating him like a caged animal. >> the biden campaign knew this was political. they sent down that washed up loser and try to make a press conference out of it. >> how was i going to affect the rnc? what if he has home confinement? he can go? does the convention still happen? >> you don't go and try to lock up your opponent. this is america. we are not supposed to be a third world country. >> a third world country, a banana republic. >> banana republic. >> banana republic area >> the jury barely deliberated despite the complexity of the novel legal theory at play, and they probably all hate donald trump. >> was the case against hunter biden? >> i'm speaking to msnbc viewers and cnn viewers, rachel maddow and caitlin collins. it is time to come together. because this administration does not care about us. >> you want to take the high road? call up kathy vogel, have her give a pardon. you can do that. >> you can feel their pain. at least our friends on the morning show did what they could to take a bit of the sting away. they brought in the beach boys. >> after yesterday's news, does this make you feel a little better? >> your conservative media coming to terms with the trump conviction. so much for good vibrations. gh] let's just wait them out. the volkswagen atlas with three rows of seating for seven. everyone wants a ride. [ snoring ] ok, get in. 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you gotta use the right toothpaste! dr. c?! ♪♪ not all toothpastes whiten the same. crest 3d white removes 100% more stains for a noticeably whiter smile. new personal best. crest. >> first and foremost i want to thank the jury for its service. the jurors performed a fundamental civic duty. their service is literally the cornerstone of our judicial system. we should all be thankful for the careful attention that this jury paid to the evidence and the law, and their time and commitment over these past several weeks. during this trial, from jury selection through the trial itself, there was this expectation. you hear it on our show all the time, on everyone's shows, that there was a pretty strong likelihood of a hung jury. and the reasoning behind that was that one, reaching consensus is hard. getting 12 people to agree. and also, the subtext is that there are a lot of people in america who are incredibly devoted to donald trump. that is true in every part of the country, including manhattan where you have 85,000 votes in 2020. 85,000 votes. in fact, that thinking wasn't limited to people watching the case on the outside. according to rolling stone, trump's own people thought they could get a hung jury because the body language of one juror made them think that juror might be on their side. trump even took to calling the person my juror in discussion of close allies. now, we don't know these folks 's politics or ideological commitments. but the fundamental idea behind both american democracy in general and the jury system in particular is that you can trust ordinary people to reason together and come to reasonable conclusions. sometimes i find that faith can be a little challenged in this era. but not yesterday. a former justice on the new york state supreme court and a former judge on the new york city criminal court. philip hamilton is a defense attorney with extensive experience in front of the judge, in this case, juan merchan. they join me now. good to have you here. the jury system, what a marvel. >> it is. >> well, i said on this program before, and the night before the verdict came down that i actually thought the process, whatever the outcome was, the process had been very good. and the process itself sort of prove the point. where you at all surprised that , when we found out that there was a unanimous verdict? >> i was not surprised at a unanimous verdict. i was surprised that it came so quickly. i really expected it to be late today. i doubted it was going to go over the weekend. there were a lot of counts the to get through. the charge, as we know, was somewhat confusing because the jury asked for it to be read a second time. i thought when the jury asked for the rereading of reasonable doubt and circumstantial evidence that things were not, perhaps, looking so good. >> for the prosecution? for the defense. >> when you start thinking about inferences than you know they are considering well, even though we might not have direct evidence, what does it mean to have circumstantial evidence? >> and i think if we are talking about as a defense attorney myself practices in that court, who has practiced for judge merchan, i would've been most nervous about the part of the notes to hear testimony. it is clear that i made my argument that cohen is a liar, now they are circumventing cohen and getting that corroboration. >> let me ask you this as a defense attorney. this was a hung jury strategy by the defense team, rather than an acquittal strategy. >> an acquittal strategy, and i discussed as much, is always going to include accounts or narrative. >> here is an alternate theory for what happened. >> he didn't want his wife to find out about these allegations with stormy daniels. he didn't even think he was going to win the election so he needed to make sure his business interests were still strong. he cannot live with these kinds of allegations. trump's ego would never allow him to allow blanche to go at that counter narrative, but it would've been a really effective one. >> that is so funny, because i felt like i was missing something this whole trial. i kept thinking give me something, give me some other story to hang on if i am in that jury box, to say it looks like this but it was actually this. that is plausible. >> i can't say if it was this or that, and once you get there, when you start talking about the instructions for reasonable doubt, you have it. but they never told the counter narrative. all they wanted to do, to your point, was try to get someone to hold out because they thought someone was a liar, whether it was cohen, or whether pecker had an interest because of the nonprosecution agreement. whatever it may have been, as we ultimately came to see, not effective. this man got convicted. 34 counts. >> this is a very 30,000 foot question i'm going to ask you, which is what have you learned about how people reason collectively from dealing with juries? >> i will tell you what you learn, and it is interesting. in most cases the alternates are released once the jurors start to deliberate, because unless the defense wants to place them, and they never do, there is no role for them. and they have been around for weeks. thank you, alternates, you are free to go. you may talk to the lawyers if you choose to. the lawyers run over to them. more often than not what the alternates say they would do ins up not being what the jury did. >> that is fascinating. >> it is, and i always say don't worry about whatever the alternates do, -- >> because the collective activity of the decision-making itself is distinct. >> yes, it changes the dynamic. they are in a room, often i am sure they go in there and some are here, some are there, and it comes together. and it is really a beautiful thing. it sounds corny, but it's true. >> look, i am going to end with you as a defense attorney, i have felt this tension the entire time in this. because i felt like it has been remarkable to watch the law function in this way. he is in there like any other criminal defendant. at the same time, the american criminal justice system is a brutal beast. >> that's a whole other show. >> but they are together in some ways. in some ways it seems to me like this is the apotheosis of what we want. good tourneys, blah blah blah. and this outcome represents the system at its apex. >> i agree with that holy, and what i would like to say is you have a lot of commentators who are formal federal prosecutors who have come in spoken about this particular trial. i want to give one nuance with respect to new york state practice. the jury selection process is not done by the judge. the jurors are questioned by the attorneys. when you start to have trump out here now starting to
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