Zero chance of being trumps running mate. But, i dont know, something tells me trump would fully support killing disobedient pets. Oh, my gosh. It keeps on going. It does. She keeps doubling down. Cleanup on aisle four. She knocks down aisle five. Yeah. Another possible running mate for donald trump makes headlines this morning. Were going to show you what senator tim scott of South Carolina had to say about accepting the results of this years election. More importantly, and more to the point, to show you where the Republican Party is in 2024, what he said about not or what he didnt say, actually, about accepting the will of the people. Its just disturbing, and i guess we should expect it at this point. I will continue to be shocked. Its a sign of trumps Republican Party, the autocratic bent theyve taken. Well show you that in a little bit. Also, well get you caught up on Donald Trumps Hush Money Trial, the criminal trial, which resumes later this morning in New York City. It comes after emotional testimony on friday from the former president s longtime aide hope hicks. Plus, well have a live report from jerusalem on the new developments in the ceasefire negotiation between israel and hamas. A lot going on. Good morning on this monday morning, may 6th. Welcome to morning joe. With us, we have the host of Way Too Early, White House Bureau chief at politico, Jonathan Lemire. Ed luce of the Financial Times is with us. Roger chair of the presidency at Vanderbilt University, john meesh m. Meacham. We learned meacham was a difficult student. We learned it by someone who taught Him Shakespeare. Difficult, huh . Well, i think she may have just been saying difficult. You already knew everything. Exactly. Oh, sure. Thats probably what it was, yeah. Or thought you knew everything. Okay. That is definitely true, yup. Also with us this morning, columnist and Associate Editor of the Washington Post, David Ignatius is with us. He is the author of the new thriller, which is out tomorrow. Oh, my gosh. Entitled, Phantom Orbit. We cant wait to talk about that. Im telling you, these are so exciting, david. The amazing thing about your books is, and the few people who try to do this but cant quite do it as well as you do, is there are often things that you can write in these books that you cant write in nonfiction books. Right. It is an accumulation of a lot of things that youve learned through the years that you just cant write because its been, you know, off the record, deep background. Youve been as meacham, places you shouldnt have gone. You learn things that crazy situations. But you put it all together in these extraordinary books. So, joe, i have a friend from syria who said to me once, david, you tell the truth more in your fiction than in your journalism. I dont know how to respond to that, but there is a kind of truth in this book about whats coming at us, which is space warfare. Thats the future of warfare. Were seeing it. Ukraine is the first space war. Those are the kinds of things im trying to deal with in this new novel. Wonderful. Well talk more about it, david. Thanks for being on this morning. Talking about ripped from the headlines. I know. I was reading an article yesterday specifically about the fear of putins war in space and what countries across the world are trying to do to catch up with it. Let us get to our top story. Joe biden narrowly leading donald trump in novembers General Election race. In the first poll from abc news and ipsos, biden is up four points, 49 to 45 among likely voters nationwide. In the second, from npr, pbs, and marist college, biden holds a fivepoint lead, 52 to 47 among registered voters who say they definitely plan to vote in november. That is still within the margin of error. What do you make at this point . It is kind of hard to take any poll that seriously, but what is it telling you in terms of the state of the race . Also, the fact that its tight, given the options. Well, i mean, were so many months out, so these polls in may just dont make a huge difference. But i will tell you, as a candidate myself when i was a candidate myself, i would take a poll from time to time. You just want to see. You want to test the temperature. Again, as ive always said, you want to look at trends. We saw a couple months ago, joe biden far behind in a lot of polls. These show something quite different, that he is now moving ahead of donald trump, again, among likely voters. You know, polls of adults, even polls of registered voters this far out, you really might as well be watching housewives of beverly hills, which i hear has really heated up this season. Something, as you dig into these polls, i think makes this election actually unique, at least in america. I think it is the way were going. Ed luce, i want to go to you really quickly. The Financial Times, i think a couple months ago, talked about how the Approval Ratings of candidates, president ial candidates, incumbents, just collapsed. If youre trying to predict how an election is going to turn out, dont look at that. Youll have as much luck as they did in france when they were seeing macron in the low 30s and ending up winning, you know, with 57 , 58 of the vote. We see that here, especially the abc poll, where joe bidens Approval Ratings are as low as theyve been. On issues, donald trump doing better than the president in many areas. Then you start asking about who has better character, who is a better person, who understands people like you, and those sort of questions, joe biden wins. In some of those, he wins by a great deal. Those Approval Ratings, again, just as the Financial Times had reported several months ago, low Approval Ratings and, yet, he still prevails, especially against a candidate like donald trump. Is that just where we are now because of social media and everything else, that youre just going to have president ial incumbents with low Approval Ratings that may end up like macron winning comfortably . Yeah, i think thats well put, joe. I mean, governments all around the democratic world have low Approval Ratings. Relative to most of the rest of the west, other democracies, america is the fastestgrowing economy, is doing far better, in fact, than countries across the atlantic. Yet, bidens ratings are as low as they are there. There is a general just antiincumbency feeling across the democratic world. A good economy doesnt seem to make that much difference. But were not really at the choice stage where most voters are focusing like we do obsessionally here in the beltway. I think, therefore, once we do get those polls, ive always had after labor day, ive always had the hunch that this is going to be a referendum on trump, not on biden. Right. Because trump will make it a referendum on trump. He just cant help himself. You might think im being a bit panglossian, but i think, ultimately, biden has got the edge here. You know, im not going to live to regret those words. Right. Well, you know, while you were talking, i actually wrote a note to mikko. Mika. I said, i fear ed is being panglossian. We almost said the same thing to each other. It is really strange. Its like we finish each others sentences. Comes off the tongue. It does. Its beautiful. Jon meacham, i think ed is so right. 2016, it was not about donald trump. It was a referendum on the clintons, on the bushes, on the people who had run the country since 1980. 2020, obviously a referendum on donald trump. I just with all that hes saying, the fact that he has to Say Something shocking and new every day, just to sort of amp up his base, 2024 will also be, the end of the day, a referendum on donald trump. That makes it a referendum on the battle for our better angels, which is not panglossian. That is a discernible truth. And the darker instincts, these authoritarian instincts that the former president is articulating. He is saying it all. So for those of us who believe that this is about democracy, democratic norms, a constitution that, for all of its imperfections, continues to enable us to try to create a more perfect union, all of which shouldnt necessarily be on the ballot, right . I mean, you know, ordinarily, were voting on a role of the state in the marketplace, perhaps on the role of how we project force in the world. Those are the ordinary political choices. This is not that. This is about, do you believe in a We The People . Do you believe in i am your retribution . So, yes, its a referendum on trump, but president ial politics well, not but, and, and president ial politics is a binary choice. Although, and i dont know if this polling shows this, how the thirdparty candidates are doing is going to matter enormously. You know, i believe 49 45 . That makes sense to me. When you introduce the other possibilities here, who does that hurt is a really important question. As you said, really in about seven or eight states. Yeah, and in this poll at least, the abc poll, even with all the other candidates introduced, Joe Biden Still Beats donald trump. It is, though, still in the range of the margin of error. Jonathan lemire, i want to follow up on what ed luce said offhandedly about the American Economy being superior to all other economies across the globe. Its not even close. As the Wall Street Journal said, the United States is the envy of the world at the end of the year. One of its well, the Editor Emeritus of the opinion page said the great winner of 2023 was the American Economy. The loser was chinas economy. You look at all the numbers. We can pick through the numbers. Weve been complaining for the past year that the economy is too strong, that it is too hot, that it is pushing up inflation because it is so strong. But, you know, people across the world are looking at our economy post covid and wondering how in the world we did it. It is so superior to other economies. Both or friends and our enemies. No question. Americas postpandemic economy the envy of the world. Some signs last week that perhaps the heat was cooling off, which might allow the fed to tweak interest rates. Unclear, though, whether thatll happen between now and the november election. Lets be clear here, National Polls only mean so much. Though, joe, i agree, the trend lines have been probiden in recent weeks, except for the one outlier from cnn maybe a week back, which had trump up five or six. Most seem to be going bidens direction now. As we well know, this is not a campaign thats going to be run on the national election. Its about the battleground states. The Swing State Polls very close. Trump up in more than biden, but virtually every state in the margin of error. We heard over the weekend from some republicans who think that minnesota and virginia could be in play. Highly doubtful of that, particularly virginia. Trump was close in minnesota before, though. He came close in minnesota previously. David ignatius, the biden team, theres a Couple Pickups theyre looking at, too. North carolina, first and foremost, they feel good about where there are there. Florida more of a reach. At the very least, they think theyll force the republicans to spend some resources. You had a conversation with some senior biden folks over the weekend. Give us their insights to where they think the race stands. Interesting thing about my conversations with these Biden Campaign officials is that their own polling shows a lot of people who voted for joe biden in 2020 arent convinced yet that donald trump will be the republican nominee. Once they become convinced of that, it happens, he is the candidate, theres more of a chance of what weve all been talking about, which is that this election is not a referendum on joe biden, with all of his weaknesses and gaffes, its a referendum on the person who was president for four years, donald trump. You remind people systematically what that was like. You bring back all the memories people have. Lets not forget, in 2022, when the republicans thought theyd have a red wave, they didnt. Why . Because people look back at the trump years with a lot of distaste. I think thats basically their idea. One interesting thing, jonathan, is that we think that with trump tied down in court in new york, scowling at everybody, looking like he is miserable, that is probably good for the campaign for biden. Actually, the biden people, i think, would rather have him out in the country saying things that then get him in trouble. The Time Magazine interview is a perfect example. They feel like every time hes on the loose, he says something that reminds people, this is how he would govern. They think thats really the best thing theyve got going. I think hes done that in his Time Magazine interview. But david is so right. Nothing like seeing it. The campaign is so right. The professionals, donald trump actually has professionals running his campaign, and for them, less is more. The less donald trump is out on the Campaign Trail, the less he is saying crazy things, the more they can say, look back at how great things were in 2019, 2018. Thats what they want to do. And pretend that this explosive volcanic side of donald trump doesnt exist. So it is so interesting when you hear people saying, oh, its biden who wants him in court. No. Joe biden and the Campaign Team would love him at rallies every night. Again, because he says just crazy things. He loses his train of thought. Sometimes he looks like a doddering old man, they say. Weve seen we could show the clips. In court, all he has to do, he can sleep. He can do whatever hes doing. Salacious, hideous things are being, you know, proposed about his activity. Right. I mean, i dont know, i think its a balance. Ive heard this many times, that theyd rather have him out there. Im not sure. Then he walks out and has, you know his little moment. A 30second talk, easy to contain, and he can play victim the rest of the time. Well watch and see what happens. Court resumes today. A lot to talk about moving forward in the next few hours with that in terms of Donald Trumps criminal trial in New York City. Lets move, though, to the fastmoving developments out of The Middle East now. Nbc news and the Associated Press continues bill burns may have to travel to israel to hold more talks about a potential ceasefire in an effort to free hostages from the gaza strip. Over the weekend, israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said israel was not prepared to end the war permanently, saying such a move would leave hamas in power. Meanwhile, an Israeli Defense forces spokesman said around 100,000 Palestinian Civilians have been told to evacuate the city of rafah as israel appears poised to launch a new operation there. A senior Arab Negotiator directly involved in the talks with israel and the United States tells nbc news that the ceasefire negotiations are not over and have not collapsed. It is not yet clear when or whether a major Rafah Operation could begin. Yesterday, four Israeli Soldiers were killed at a crossing, ten injured, according to the idf. Hamas took responsibility for the assault that Israeli Military Officials Say involved roughly 14 rockets and mortars. The idf, in turn, destroyed the weapon involved in carrying out the attack, as well as other hamas military infrastructure. There is no indication whether the crossing itself was the target of the attack. Joining us now from jerusalem is nbc news chief Foreign Correspondent Richard Engel. Richard, what more can you tell us this morning . Reporter it seems we are at a crossroads right now. There had been some progress over the last several days to try and reach a ceasefire. Those ceasefire talks fell apart over the weekend, and now there is an effort to try to cobble them back together. But there are real differences between hamas position and israeli Prime Minister netanyahus position and his governments position. So we either have a deal, and there is definitely an effort to try to reach a deal, or the deal is blown up and Israeli Forces go into rafah. Both seem likely. Pressure is being put on both of these fronts right now. Let me start with and theyre absolutely interrelated. Let me start on the ceasefire front, then the pressure being put on rafah. You mentioned the evacuation orders. First on the ceasefire, there was an attempt to reach a ceasefire. There were hamas negotiators, qatari negotiators, egyptian negotiators, all meeting in various locations, cairo primarily. Hamas said it wants to make a deal, its ready to make a deal. It received a document from israel, said it was studying it positively. Israel didnt send a negotiator to that forum, and the talks fell apart. They fell apart because the two sides dont agree on what the deal is ultimately going to achieve. What hamas says it wants is an end to this round of fighting, an end to this current conflict. Not an end globally to the Israeli Palestinian conflict. But an end to the fighting and wants israeli troops to fall back. Thatd leave some sort of hamas government in charge. In exchange for that, for israel agreeing to end the conflict and pulling out, there would be hostage releases. The Israeli Government says it will not accept that. Itd only give a temporary ceasefire, days, weeks, in order to get some hostages out, and then would continue to go after hamas. Palestinians, including representatives, say, what incentive does hamas have to release the only leverage it is holding, the hostages, about 100 believes to still be alive, if israel says, once you do release them, were going to go after you and try to eliminate you. The other focus here is the city of rafah. Thats where about a million palestinians are taking shelter. It is right in the southern part of the country. There was an attack in the area yesterday carried out by hamas that you mentioned. That is also where it is believed the hamas leadership is holding out. Its the last place still under hamaseffective control. Now, the palestinians who are there dont want to see the israelis move in in a major way. President biden has said that he doesnt want the Israeli Military to move in in a major way. Itd be a humanitarian catastrophe. Israel says the only way to eliminate hamas, take it from power in gaza, is by going into rafah. Today, we saw the first Concrete Action Signaling that israel might, in fact, do that, dropping leaflets, sending Text Messages to about 100,000 people in a corner of rafah, telling them to leave because a Major Military action is coming. The Major Military action in rafah hasnt started yet. It could be a warning. It could be part of a Negotiating Tactic. Like i said earlier, these things are both related. It could be the israelis are just trying to put pressure on hamas, saying, not only are we prepared to come into rafa, were going to do it. Were already issuing leaflets for people to leave, so you better agree to the terms right now. Things are at a critical juncture, i think, right now, and we will see if we either have a major invasion into rafah or some sort of deal perhaps emerging in the next several days. Nbcs Richard Engel live in jerusalem, thank you so much. We really appreciate your report. David ignatius, the question is how to get to this deal for a ceasefire when hamas is demanding an evacuation of idf from gaza. And thatll never happen. I mean, israel, the israeli people this is not about Benjamin Netanyahu. The israeli people simply will never, ever, ever stand for hamas running gaza again. And im not so sure many Palestinian People in gaza would like that, as well. How do you split that difference . How do you get the hostages home, and how do you make the ceasefire long enough to get buyin from hamas so families can be reunited with hostages and aid can go in up abated into gaza. Joe, this is why were at an impasse. The way id sum it up, hamas is still playing for a win. Hamas wants to come out of this so it can proclaim that it was victorious in the campaign that began october 7. Israel, understandably, is determined to resist that. So were at this moment where there is, i think, growing consensus in israel that they have to do this last Rafah Operation. I was struck by the fact that the chief minister of defense, gallant, who has been the person the u. S. Government has felt most comfortable talking with in the last weeks, came out yesterday in favor of the invasion of rafah in a more forthright way than he has. I found the fact that they were actually leafletting parts of rafah, saying, flee for your lives, the idf is coming, important. I can remember being in beirut in 1982 when the leaflets came down from the sky saying the same thing. They mean it. So we do have 11th hour efforts by bill burns to put some compromise on the table that allows each side to feel that it can say it is winning when it is, in fact, a compromise. Bill burns is an artist. If anybody can do it, burns can. But at this point, i think the likelihood that these combatants, as exhausted as they are and as battered as the palestinian civilian population of gaza is, even so, i have a terrible feeling that this war is going to go on further. The combatants are not exhausted. One thing the United States could do is to say, we feel it is time for this war to end. If israel decides it needs to attack rafa, it will do so without u. S. Weapons. Because were not comfortable with this next phase of the war. I think the administration is right up at that point. Talking with the white house, i know thats on their list. Thats a big step, to say, israel, youll fight the next battle alone. I dont think theyre there yet. The point ill make, efforts to find a compromise where everybody says they got something acceptable are fading. Each side still wants a win. Yeah. And the one thing that israelis will not allow to happen, and this isnt just netanyahu. This is the israeli people. That is, for hamas to claim a win. Right. For what they did on October The 7th and for hamas to stay in power. Thats no more acceptable to the israeli people, hamas staying in power in gaza, than it would be for us to leave al qaeda in place after september the 11th. Right. The question is, how do you find how do you give enough of a ceasefire so its worth it for hamas, who is not going to stay in power, to release the hostages . Thats bill burns charge. Another dynamic. Ahead in one minute, were going to go over what to expect today when Donald Trumps criminal Hush Money Trial resumes. And the big takeaways from the emotional testimony by hope hicks on friday. That continues today, as well. Youre watching morning joe. Were back in 60 seconds. During his Hush Money Trial, donald trump complained that none of his supporters were in court with him. What about all those cops . [ laughter ] former president donald trump, seen here, definitely not sleeping. Hes probably just praying. Former President Trump, for the first time in his trial, wrote a message on a yellow postit note and handed it to his lawyer while he was making an argument. The postit read simply, cant pay you. Oh, dear. Didnt donald trump say that he wasnt asleep, he was just closing his beautiful blue eyes . Yup. And taking everything in . Yup, take it all in. Okay. Day 12 of Donald Trumps Hush Money Criminal Trial resumes this morning in a New York City courtroom. After a revealing day of testimony on friday, when trumps former confident and longtime aide, hope hicks, took the witness stand, hicks testified about what it was like inside trumps 2016 president ial campaign and how the alleged Hush Money Payments came about. Lets bring in former litigator and msnbc Legal Correspondent lisa rubin. Everybody was talking about the emotional part of this, where hope broke down. But what is it that she brought to the table in terms of what the prosecution is looking to prove . I think, mika, that hope was the most valuable witness on the context of what was happening in the campaign in october 2016 that would have led Michael Cohen and donald trump to believe that a payoff to Stormy Daniels was not just advisable but absolutely necessary to preserve his chances. I had a chance to reread the testimony over the weekend once we had the transcript, and the timeline that she puts into motion is absolutely devastating. It starts with being notified of the access Hollywood Tape by the Washington Post. Shes the first person that the campaign in the campaign to understand that the Washington Post has the tape and the transcript on october 7th. Once the tape is released and the article is published, so many things happen in rapid succession. A number of prominent republicans quickly disassociate themselves from donald trump and the campaign. Youve got another tape and a rumor about it coming to her the next day on october 8th. Then by october 9th, trump has his next debate. The first question out of the gate, or one of them from Anderson Cooper and martha raddatz, is about the access Hollywood Tape. By october 10th, the New York Times is Publishing Reports of other problematic behavior that trump has had with women. Then by the 15th and the 16th, trump is, again, on the offensive, pushing back against these other womens stories, not stories involving Stormy Daniels or Karen Mcdougal, but other women who Accused Trump of misconduct in this period. She is taking us through in rapid fire succession, one crisis after another after another, precipitated all at once by the access Hollywood Tape from which they cant get out from under. Its no wonder after seeing hope hicks testimony that Michael Cohen, dylan howard, david pecker, donald trump, are engineering these Settlement Payments to happen because they needed this problem to go away, as opposed to continuing throughout november and up until election day, mika. Politico says in their Story Reporting on this that hope hicks offered the defense their first glimmer of hope here. Says that trumps lawyers argued that trumps motivation in seeking to silence the two women, Former Playboy Model Karen Mcdougal and porn star Stormy Daniels, instead, was to protect his family. Trying to conflict trump of 34 felonies, prosecutors are seeking to link fraudulent Business Records with violations of election laws. There were parts of her testimony where she actually did say he was doing it to protect the family, right . Well, yes and no. I would say, joe, she said it was a motivation but not the motivation or even the principal motivation. Its like having two hungry mouths to feed, and if the defense is one of the mouths, she gave them a nice, tasty dessert, but she saved the main meal for the prosecution. She revealed in 2018, once cohen told the New York Times he had made the payment to Stormy Daniels, hope hicks describes a conversation she had with donald trump shortly thereafter. He told her that he had spoken to cohen, and that cohen had made that payment out of the goodness of his heart to protect trump from false accusations. Hope didnt believe that, but what she said next was the more devastating thing. Trump then said to her, i think it was better that this come out now than if it had come out during the campaign and michael hadnt made that payment at all. It was clear to her that the primary motivation, and while she didnt say this outright, she was conveying for donald trump, the most important motivating factor was not melanias feelings but preserving his electoral chances. Lisa, lets look ahead to this week. What do we know about who we might hear from . Also, is there more gag order details to get through . I believe there was going to be a second hearing for some gag order rules broken. Lets start with the second part. There was that second hearing. I do not believe the punishment for the alleged violations will be incarceration. In part, mika, because they happened before the first hearing. If donald trump is going to be fairly warned that incarceration could be a penalty for his Criminal Contempt, this wouldnt have done it. In terms of what to expect this week, i think it is really anybodys guess. I can tell you thematically, it feels like hope hicks is the last witness, at least for right now, to testify to the formation of the conspiracy to get donald trump elected by paying off these women, and that we should be moving into the real heart of the matter here, which is the falsification of Business Records in order to conceal that conspiracy to elect donald trump through unlawful means. Who are we likely to see here in this phase . A number of Trump Organization employees who are involved in the invoices and general ledger statements. We also might hear from madeline westerhout, trumps executive assistant in the white house. What does she have to do with this . She had to place the nine checks that donald trump signed in front of him. Weve already seen, throug rhona graffs testimony, where they were discussing, how can i send this back and forth . Im sending checks for him to sign. Madeleine westerhout can be a critical witness to know donald trump had knowledge and participation in this portion of the crime which, as i said, the heart of what the manhattan d. A. s office has to prove. Msnbc Legal Correspondent lisa rubin. Thank you. Thank you so much. Jon meacham, we wont even ask and we stopped asking some time ago for historical parallels. There just simply arent. There are no historical parallels in this country. But, my gosh, as you said before, what is at stake is so massive this fall. Im curious your thoughts when you see this testimony. The Time Magazine article. The continued threats of an authoritarian regime coming directly from donald trump. It is so interesting. People say, oh, theyve got Trump Derangement syndrome if they say then they will repeat something that donald trump has said directly himself and project it onto other people. You know, donald trump constantly is saying something and then im going to terminate the constitution. Then, i never said id terminate the constitution. Ill be a dictator. Im going to monitor womens pregnancies. Im in support of monitoring womens pregnancies. Then hell say, i never said that. Of course, giving his people what they want to hear. Im just curious about your take on where we are right now. I think my answer is, at once, to me, thrilling and terrifying. It is thrilling because it is up to all of us. It is up to the voters in the seven or eight states. Its up to those of us who have strong feelings about the continuance of the constitution of order, to make this case, and thats great, right . Its We The People. Whats terrifying is that its up to us and its up to the voters in the swing states. Its up to those of us who have to make the case to people around the country. If there is no mystery here, right . I think it is going to be impossible for people to vote in the fall and not understand whats at stake. Maybe thats part of what those of us who, you know, want to make this case have to keep doing, is making sure we say it. It may seem repetitive to the political industrial class, but that doesnt matter. I think as ed was saying, you know, there are normal people who are better adjusted than we are and dont worry about this all the time. But it is really, really important. I dont think again, what id say to anyone who says, yeah but, yeah, trump is awful but whatever, is there is no but. Its got to be, yeah, trump is that, and im going to vote against him. I just think thats where we are. I say it not as a democrat or republican. Im talking to a former republican member of congress who was elected in a year where you all broke democratic control for the first time in a biblical 40 years, right . Here you are, having left that party. Making this case. It is not a partisan decision, at least in my head. Its about the constitution. Well, you know it should be. We balanced the budget four years in a row for the first time in a century. We passed welfare reform. We did so many things that, at one time, people would applaud if we were conservatives. Now, you have, really, a political cult. So, yeah, it is very distressing because ideology doesnt matter. Ideas dont matter. Its so funny, for people who may have been surprised, that watch the show every day and thank you for watching the show every day during some of the campus protests, people wrote in and said, you sound conservative. Well, where have you been for 17 years . Thats the thing. I think good conservatives, good moderates, good liberals, good progressives can all agree on the same thing. Weve got a wonderful country. We have a great constitution. We need to keep moving toward being a more perfect union. We recognize our flaws. We also recognize a great future if we go in the right direction. Thats one of the things that is one of the positive things, mika, that ive loved. Ive loved being able to talk to progressives and talk to liberals and talk to people who i may have disagreed with through the years, and get together and go, you know, this is something so much bigger. It is. This is about the constitution. This is about america. Whether Bernie Sanders or mike pence is president of the United States, we have a constitution that rounds off the sharp edges. They respect the guardrails of american democracy. Yeah. Donald trump is unique in the fact that he does not. Ive got to say, again, it is as john said, im a conservative guy from northwest florida. There are progressives on the other side. We agree were at a moment right now where we all need to come together and protect this democracy. Protect this constitution. It is clear for people who study this every day like us, this country will change in an extremely significant way if trump wins the next election, unlike the last time. He promised that. I know that. We also know what he tried to do the last time around. He didnt have the people in place he will this time. They have a whole project to set that up. When you look at the Time Magazine article, ed luce, youre writing about why europe should brace itself for donald trump, for another term of donald trump. Tell us about it. The european strategy has been, until now, to hope trump doesnt get reelected. There is not much you can do in practical terms to hedge against this possibility. Trump, first time around, was pretty bad. I think there is an understanding, if he gets elected again in november, itll be by a multiple much, much worse than it was last time. In terms of trade wars. Trump believes deficits means america is being ripped off. There would be a transatlantic trade war, more than with the aluminum and steel tariffs last time. The word, of course, would be the end of nato, if not legally, de facto, in terms of trump saying they need to pay their fees, he sees it as a club, and, therefore, we wont come to your aid if youre attacked by putin. Putin has his eyes on other countries than just ukraine. He has moldova, the Baltic Republic in his sights. None believe a Trump Administration would back them up in a showdown with putin. So europe has to brace itself, prepare for the possibility of trump. It is very hard to know how to do that. Some countries like poland are spending 4 of their gdp on defense, which is higher than america, by the way. Right. Hes not going to take those things into account. He has a preconceived view about europe as moochers, you know, as people who basically rely on american subsidies. He wants to eliminate those subsidies. All right. Ed luce, thank you so much. Jon meacham, once again, like eisenhower, warning of the political industrial complex. Even ike could not imagine the day. If only he could understand shakespeare. The day when there would be fourhour political shows daily. Thats right. Well get back to you on that. Good luck. You might want to i would say i look forward to that, but i dont. Thank you. You shouldnt. Okay. David ignatius, from reality sounding like fiction and fiction sounding like reality, tell us about your new book, a thriller entitled, Phantom Orbit. So, joe and mika, Phantom Orbit is about the world of warfare that has really arrived. We dont think of it, but the ukraine war is really the first space war. All of the Communications Equipment that allows ukraine to keep fighting in this war, it is targeting, its Intelligence Assessment, its all through space systems. Russians realize that and are trying to take those systems down. My book opens with a russian scientist who believes that he has discovered a russianamerican, a russianchinese kill switch that can turn off the gps system on which we rely for basically every aspect of our commercial lives. Gps runs transportation. Every cell phone connects with gps. He sees this as a Weapon Of Mass Destruction in the hands of the russians and chinese. He decides that he has to tell the cia about this and communicates the information to them. They dont do anything with it. Weeks pass and nothing happens. The question that we open the book with is, why . The book then pulls back and looks at the roots of this mans obsession with space systems, his relationship with an American Woman who is a cia officer, and moves toward the present moment, where the ukraine war is going on, and all these issues are really matters of absolute life and death for our character and for our countries. But i think the basic takeaway, joe and mika, is that were entering a new world in warfare. Its the next world that will begin in space, may end in space. These are systems that people havent really begun to think about. The pleasure of being a novelist, in the time im not a journalist, is i get to think in this broader way about whats coming and the characters who are driving it. The Washington Post David Ignatius, thank you. His new novel, Phantom Orbit, is officially out tomorrow. I cant wait. Congratulations, david. Thank you very much for coming on this morning. Still ahead on morning joe, the atlantics Anne Applebaum will join us with her new piece about democracy and how it is losing the propaganda war. And what autocrats in russia and china are now doing with maga republicans to discredit freedom everywhere. Morning joe will be right back. Tech does your windshield have a crack . Trust safelite. This customer had auto glass damage, but he was busy working from home. 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See why Comcast Business Powers more Small Businesses than anyone else. Get started for 49. 99 a month plus ask how to get up to an 800 prepaid card. Dont wait call today. Lionel messi into the attack, plays it ahead. Suarez from the shot. He strikes again are you kidding me . Its a hat trick for louie suarez. Lionel messi continues to make it look easy in the mls. The former legend, suarez, was messis fifth assist, propelling his team to the win. Lets bring in nbc sports soccer analyst and founder of men in blazer, median at work, roger bennett. Its really just kind of impossible to explain adequately the impact messi is having in the mls. Tickets, Ticket Prices exploding. These cities just flooding to see this guy. A lot of old hands saying, see him while you have the chance. He is the greatest of all time. That, i would not argue with, joe. But watching him play football is so joyful. Every week, it is like watching the ewoks win the battle for endor. He delivers. You want to talk about the Premier League, right . Mika watches the Premier League. I do. Mika on a loop. Mika wants to talk about the Premier League and how liverpool decides to actually win when it no longer matters. Yeah. Well get to liverpool, joe. Lets start with the big teams who actually can win things. The Premier League is careening into its final two weekends. Title race for mika going down to the wire. A bit like the kentucky derby, with arsenal and threetime defenders Manchester City, headed for a photo finish, going down to the last nose hair. First up, london, arsenal owned by stan kroenke, bournemouth, opened the scoring in the sunshine. Saka from the spot, cooler than the polar bears toenails. Declan rice spun around like a record, baby, right round. He finished it off at the death. A fine, exquisite cap to a tenacious 30 win. Finished with a salute to the fans. Absolutely delirious. This team, arsenal, so young, throwing hay makers like Lamar Kendrick at drake. All eyes are moved up north to manchester. Abu dhabi owned Manchester City held serve and nerve. They are a machine. Against wolves. The star, the norwegian, haaland. Chatgpt in cleats. It was like watching vince carter dunk, if hed been born in norway. It was like watching larry hitting the ball like tom brady at city. One point behind arsenal with the extra gain to play. Honestly, feel like a mortal. We want to talk about your beautiful, human liverpool, joe. The care bear of a manager, jurgen klopp. Penultimate game playing tottenham, who were at bad as kristi noem reading her own book on tape. They won, 42. This elliott thundering the ball home, from Caitlin Clark range. It is incredible, joe, to watch this man. Jurgen klopp, a german in england, a man who an enormous weight has been lifted from his shoulders by his announcement he is going to leave after eight years. He was left to celebrate and revel in the expression of collective gratitude for the journeys hes taken these fans around the world on, like you, and the dreams hes allowed them to share. Even me, who is only 3 human, find it incredibly moving. Well, ive got to say, we will be watching that on a loop and trying to dissect everything he said. It is like reading james joyce. It is. Youll be studying this for a while. Pick up the kristi noem references. Yeah. The Kendrick Lamar references. The tom brady roast references. I want to know his thoughts and reflections. Mika, ive got to tell you, that has made my week, you saying football, you watch it on a loop. Genuinely, my work is done. On a loop. Okay, roger bennett, thank you. Thank you, roger. Very much. Ahead on morning joe, republican senator tim scott of South Carolina was asked six times yesterday. Six. Six times, whether hed accept the results of the 2024 president ial election. We will show you how he dodged answering that simple question. Do you support american democracy or not . Go. Morning joe will be right back. Thats great. I know, ive bee telling everyone. Baby liberty. Oh baby liberty. How many people did you tell . Only pay for what you need. Jingle liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Baby liberty. So this is pickleball . Pickle ah, these guys are intense. With e trade from morgan stanley, were ready for whatever gets served up. Dude, you gotta work on your trash talk. Id rather work on saving for retirement. Or college, since you like to get schooled. Thats a pretty good burn, right . You talk multiple times about it. You say the very first thing youd do if you got to the white house that was different from joe biden is youd make sure joe bidens dog was nowhere on the grounds. Commander, say hello to cricket. Are you doing this to try to look tough . Do you still think you have a shot at being vp . Number one, joe bidens dog has attacked 24 Secret Service people, so how many people is enough people to be attacked and dangerously hurt before you make a decision on a dog and what hes not living at the white house anymore. Thats a question the president should be held accountable to. Youre saying he should be shot . The president should be accountable. What is the number . I would say about republicans criticizing me, these are the same republicans that criticized me during covid. Theyve criticized me when i make decisions in south dakota to protect my state. I dont know. I kind of think people dont like it when you shoot puppies in cold blood. South dakotas republican governor kristi noem seeming to suggest that President Bidens dog, commander, should meet a similar fate. After her 14monthold puppy, cricket, 20 years ago, when she shot it dead in the gravel pit. What in the world . Why did she shoot it in a gravel pit . Why did she then grab a goat and shoot it in a gravel pit . This is something she writes in her book that she says people are misunderstanding. Misunderst that. That sounds sick. Judge jeanine on the five said, you know, when you can unite republicans and democrats this way. You can, yeah. Youve done something terribly wrong. Yeah. I mean, you know, i think this goes to, Jonathan Lemire, this really goes to, again, republicans trying to be tough. I will say, too, and this was sort of a phrase that people started talking about several years ago, that cruelty actually is the point. Somehow, cruelty shows toughness. There was a fox news conversation this weekend that a lot of people were talking about, where the brutalizing of paul pelosi, the brutalizing of a man in his 80s was a punch line. Again, something that would have gotten pretrump, would have gotten anybody fired from any network anywhere. We would have had you know, we go back to even at the beginning of Donald Trumps presidency, when he attacked mika, bleeding badly from a facelift. You had a lot of republicans that spoke out against him. People were like, no, thats just a no. Youve gone a step too far, face shaming, all this other stuff. Weve got ton a point where the boundaries are off. Somebody can laugh about paul pelosi. People in the audience, when donald trump makes fun of paul pelosi being brutalized, attacked, almost bludgeoned to death by a hammer. Staggering. People in the audience laugh and applaud. This is normal now. See this clip. Here are two hosts joking about the brutal attack on paul pelosi that fractured his skull in 2022, while they were talking, actually, on air about the president ial medal of freedom. Im not sure how they got to laughing about well see. An elderly man being almost beaten to death. Watch. In a Home Invasion. Probably more likely to go to paul pelosi, susan rice, and gavin newsom. Your list is correct but a little off brand for big joe. Rachel. Maybe paul pelosi needs the hammer instead of the medal. Well, its medal. All right. Rachel, good to see you. Its medal. We wish him well. We wish him well. No. Jonathan lemire, go. Lets recall, of course, that donald trump, as you say, when he talks about paul pelosi, it is a punch line at his rallies. It is the comments about paul pelosi that prompted joe biden, President Biden, as i reported, to refer to trump as a sick blank, fword, in private, repeatedly. I think that reflects a lot of what americans feel about people who make jokes about 80plusyearold men nearly beaten to death by a hammer, their skull cracked. But, youre right, there is a normalization of this sort of violence, this cruelty, this grotesque behavior, which is why it was something of a surprise there were so many republicans willing to speak out against kristi noem, with the governor boasting about killing her own dog. We should note, she read those words in an audiobook, as well as a claim she met kim jongun, which was not true. Shes had to back down from that, as well. Shes on an apology tour this weekend talking about the dog, still trying to defend her decision to kill it. You know, seems to make things worse. I will note, donald trump over the weekend at maralago, at a meeting with donordonors, went through possible vp candidates. Though many in his orbit say kristi noem is out of it, trump praised her repeatedly, said, shes always been there for me. Shes a great talent. That was the discussion on the latest edition of morning mika. I think trump will see her sick, depraved confession as a good thing. I dont think it takes her out of the running at all. No. I do think that people are absolutely horrified on the right and the left at the thought of her dragging her puppy into a gravel pit and shooting it dead in anger. Because is this someone you want leading . Because she didnt, i guess, have time to train it. And shot the goat because it was ugly and gross. Donny deutsch, again, the bigger point here is, the cruelty is the point. Weve gotten to a point now where republicans think that if they say that they killed a 14monthold puppy, that, somehow, people will see that as them being tough with the gun, whatever. Tough can puppies. I can handle 14monthold puppies, so i can handle anybody. Please. Again, on trumpsupporting networks, you have people joking about a man in his 80s almost being bludgeoned to death by somebody making the same chant that people were doing on january 6th, wheres nancy . I want to play this clip again, donny. I must say, i was shocked the first time i saw it. Take a look. Yeah, probably more likely to go to paul pelosi, susan rice, and gavin newsom. Your list is correct but a little off brand for big joe. Rachel maybe paul pelosi needs the hammer instead of the medal. Well, its not medal. All right. Rachel, good to see you. Its medal. We wish him well. We wish him well. I find it so ironic that republicans who think of themselves as the tough party and the party of cruelty, if it is for a cause, as in the case of kristi noem, killing a dog, or in the case of joking about paul pelosi getting hit with a hammer, or minimizing january 6th, yet the republican Rank And File have turned into the biggest wimps in the entire world. None of us will stand up to anyone. They dont have any voice of their own. They have no conscience of their own. Theyre little lemmings following the fearless leader, yet they are the tough party. Theyre anything but the toughest party. Who know who the toughest person in the party was . Liz cheney. Yeah. Speaking of being afraid of your own shadow, because donald trump may be upset by what you say and youre in the running for veep. We actually had a guy who, at the beginning of the campaign, we were talking about positively being able to go out on the Campaign Stump and being able to energize republicans with a fairly traditional, positive, conservative message. That was, of course, tim scott. That guy has completely disappeared. Now, when asked whether he would support the democratic process and whether, mika, he would support Election Results when americans go out and vote, would he accept those results, he couldnt do it. This is an interview on meet the press, where tim scott, considered to be on trumps short list for Vice President , refused to answer whether he would accept the 2024 Election Results as legitimate, no matter the outcome. Heres that exchange. Senator, will you commit to accepting the Election Results of 2024, bottom line . At the end of the day, the 47th president of the United States will be president , donald trump. Im excited to give back to low inflation, low unemployment. Senator, yes or no . Yes or no, will you accept the Election Results of 2024, no matter who wins . That is my statement. But just yes or no, will you accept the Election Results of 2024 . I look forward to President Trump being the 47th president. Kristin, you can ask it multiple times. A yes or no answer. The American People will make the decision. But i dont hear you committing theyll decide for donald trump. Will you commit to accepting the Election Results . This is why so many this is why so Many Americans believe that nbc is an extension of the democrat party. At the end of the day, i said what i said. I know the American People, their voices will be heard. I believe that President Trump will be our next president. Its that simple. But, senator, as you know, the hallmark of our democracy is that both candidates agree to a peaceful transfer of power. So im asking you as a potential vp nominee, will you accept to commit to the Election Results in this election cycle, no matter who wins . Just simply yes or no. I expect i expect President Trump to win the next election. Listen, im not going to answer your hypothetical question when, in fact, i believe the American People are speaking today on the results of the election. If it continues for the next six months, we find ourselves in a great position where we get back to another century of american prosperity. Im looking forward to that. Im im stunned. Actually, i cant believe in 2024, after nine years of donald trump being on the political stage, that weve gotten to this point, donny deutsch, where you have a United States senator who understands, if he has any chance of being on the short list for being Donald Trumps Vice President , he has to say he wont accept the results unless donald trump wins. Let me just say, how astounding. How astounding that he would say that nbc is a wing of the Democratic Party because Kristen Welker asks him, will you do what we were all taught in grade school and in Middle School and in high school . Will you do what has long made america stand separate from our enemies . And will you accept the will of the people . Will you accept the Magic Of American Democracy that was written about in the making of the president in 1960. Americans getting out of their homes, leaving their apartments, driving off their farms to go vote all across america. And collectively decide who the next president of the United States is going to be. Will you accept that . His answer was, only if donald trump wins. He couldnt say, yes, of course, ill answer that. Again, predonald trump, even pre2020, everybody would have said, why, of course. I cant wait to talk to Ane Applebaum about this. Talk about the twilight of democracy. Your reaction . Another tough republican, again, joe, could not answer the question, will you accept the results of an election . What is most befuddling about that is not the spinelessness of these characters who follow trump, to not even admit the pace basic fundamental of democracy and say it is okay, but to people listening, its not registering. Ive said this many times. Ive had conversations with friends and say, do you understand there wont be a real, free election if donald trump is elected . They go, its not possible. Youre overreacting. You hear it not only coming out of Donald Trumps mouth but coming out of his followers mouths. Theyre telling us as authoritarians do or followers of authoritarians do, they tell us whats coming. Now, the big question, maybe anne can answer this, is why are so many people not listening or not at least believing it . Yeah. This is the Republican Party, joe and mika. This is who they are. Yeah. It is an open audition to be his Vice President. There seems to be, as we often say, no bottom here. We have a governor of south dakota thinking that bragging about killing a puppy will make her look tough. We have a wellrespected senator from South Carolina suggesting that, you know, he would not go so far as to defend american democracy in free and fair elections, which is the bedrock of who we are. Wont do it because he doesnt want to dare upset donald trump. It is all about flattery. It is all about dear leader. That is where the gop stands right now. Trump has remade it in his image. Im told that he is still in the early stages of the vp process. He is in no rush to make this decision. The convention is not until the middle of july. They think even if it is mid to late june, thats fine. Even early july, perhaps. He likes this. He likes, im told, these prominent republicans kissing up to him and trying to win his favor. And we should not forget this, a senior aid told me over the weekend, as much as he likes the flattery, it is not trumps focus. He is consumed by the criminal trial in manhattan resuming in a few hours. Hes going to enjoy the Adulation Without Making A Decision soon. Lets bring in staff writer at the atlantic, Anne Applebaum. She has a cover story for the latest issue on the magazine, the new propaganda war. Well get to that in a second. We went over two things from the weekend. One, celebration of violence, bizarrely enough, about slaughtering a 14monthold puppy and thinking that that would help her political career in Donald Trumps Republican Party. You then had the two news hosts joking and laughing about an 82, 83yearold man nearly being bludgeoned to death in a Home Invasion by a hammer while the attacker was chanting january 6th chants. Then the stubborn refusal of a heretofore respected senator, refusing to say that he would accept the outcome of an election if donald trump was not the president of the United States. Can you talk about those three and wrap it up into a neat package with a bow and tell us what the hell is going on. And give us some good news . No good news here. You can try. Youre asking for a lot. Look, i think what were learning, if we havent learned it already, is that the United States is not as exceptional as americans had always believed it to be. These are all patterns that weve seen in other times and other places. For example, accepting a Conspiracy Theory, you know, the Conspiracy Theory in this case being that the 2020 election was stolen, and paying lip service to the Conspiracy Theory, is a classic tactic used inside oneparty states to ensure loyalty. I mean, whether youre looking at the Communist Party Of The Soviet Union or whether youre looking at the ruling party in hungary, everybody, if they want to progress in those systems, they have to accept the lie told by the leader. Everybody knows it. What you just saw was Tim Scott Playing Out that role. He cant say hell accept the results of the election because then hes automatically eliminated from being trumps Vice President. Of course, the other disturbing part of the story is the fear that if trump becomes president , everybody who works in the government, including everybody who is appointed to a Civil Service job, will also have to accept that lie. In other words, youll have to be part of the fiction in order to be considered eligible to be anything, to be in trumps campaign, in trumps government, sorry. Its another piece of evidence that we are moving, not really that autocracy is coming to the u. S. Or there is something happens, but that its already here. Some of the habits of autocratic states are already with us. Right. Yeah. Anne, we havent had a chance to talk to you since the time interview, but, again, it reads like its straight out of twilight of democracy. Your warnings about what happened in poland, what happened in hungary, in putins russia. In the Time Magazine article, trump is talking about firing u. S. Attorneys that do not prosecute, arrest and prosecute his political enemies, enemies in the press, enemies in the judicial system. We have donald trump talking about states monitoring, that it is okay for states to monitor womens pregnancies. It can go down the list. As you read that, were you surprised that he would admit what he is going to do . Or do you suspect that hes just trying to let americans know, if youll elect me, were moving beyond democracy and will look more like orbans hungary than madisons america . So this also connects to the topic of my atlantic cover story. For some years now, theres been a part of the american right, helped by some other foreign actors, who have been pushing the idea that autocracy is stable and safe, and democracy is chaotic and destructive. Therefore, we need a different kind of political system in america or different kinds of people running it. You know, what trump is doing is playing into an existing sentiment, one that has been built up and created for many years. So the idea that, you know, his presidency would be stable, more prosperous, more, you know its part of a broader argument about the decline of democracy and the rise of autocracy. For you, looking back, when did that start . When did that begin . You say its been happening in the Republican Party. When did the party, my former party, start moving that direction . I mean, i think, you know, Different Things happen at different times. It became clear to me during the 2016 campaign that something odd was happening. Even, for example, donald trump during the campaign, you know, using and repeating russianinvented conspiracy theories. There was one about obama creating isis and hillary starting world war iii. You know, attempting to show that the Democratic Party, in this case, was chaotic and destructive. Remember his language about only i can help you. Only i can save you. There was already autocratic language that was beginning to appeal to people. I think he sensed it and saw it coming. Yeah. Let me read from your extremely powerful piece. Its the cover story in the atlantic. Anne, you write in part this, the new authoritarians also have a different attitude toward reality. They lie constantly, blatantly, obviously. But they dont bother to offer counterarguments when their lies are exposed. After russiancontrolled forces shot down Malaysia Airlines flight mh17 over ukraine in 2014, the russian government reacted not only with a denial, but with multiple stories, plausible and implausible. It blamed the Ukrainian Army and the cia and a nefarious plot in which dead people were placed on a plane to fake a crash and discredit russia. This tactic, the socalled firehose of falsehoods, ultimately produces not outrage by nihilism. Fear, nihilism, coupled with disdain for democracy, this is the formula that some autocrats, with some variations, sell to their citizens and foreigners rg all with the aim of destroying what they call american hegemony. Anne, and, joe, actually, i think donald trump will drag out picking his vp because he has these people stepping up and jumping into his lies and holding on to them tight. Right. And developing a little system for him. Right. Among many others. The question is, as anne lays out how this happens, how does america pull back from selfdestructing . Anne, youre just so perfect to talk about this. Yeah. Because you understand poland, what has been happening in poland over the past several years. You actually had the law and Justice Party completely controlling, so many levers of power there, going into the election. They thought they were going to win the election. Others thought they were going to win the election. They did control those levers, but they lost. Donald tusk ended up winning. Im curcurious, What Lessons Ca America learn from that . How do you combat this firehose of falsehoods . I remember reading in The New Yorker back at the beginning of Donald Trumps presidency, the dairies of a man who saw the rise of hitler. One of the things that he talked about was just the firehose of falsehoods, how confounding it was to keep up with what the truth was, what the truth wasnt. Eventually, people just gave us. How do we not give up in trying to discern what the truth is, and how do we overcome this . Its interesting that you talk about poland, where we did have a very similar kind of government, one that lied repeatedly, that sought to manipulate the media, but also sought to take control of all the institutions of the state. So much so, nobody really believed anybody could ever beat them in an election again. Were not in that position here in the u. S. Were in the opposite position. We dont have that government yet, though, of course, we could. The solution in the end was to look for other ways of contacting people. There was an enormous Grassroots Campaign in which the, which was then the opposition party, sought to reach people where they were. Sought to visit small towns, big cities, rural areas, in huge numbers, partly as a way of showing up in real life to contradict the fake messages. Thats not as easy to do in the United States. Were a much bigger country. I dont think joe biden can visit every major city in america in the next six months. He could certainly get surrogates to do it. He could get others to do it. Certainly, finding ways to reach people who are apathetic, who, as i wrote, are nihilistic, who look at all this stuff in politics and say, its so confusing and contradictory, i want nothing to do with it. Reminding them what elections are for, why we engage in them, why our country is important, why our future is important. Getting them to talk and think about the future. Thats really the task for the next six months. Anne, as we speak, chinas president xi jinping touched down in france. He is meeting with president macron there. This will begin his european tour. Also has stops in serbia and hungary, which are not quite the liberal democracies that much of the rest of Western Europe is. Talk to us about this moment on the global stage as it comes just days after u. S. Intelligence says that, while china is still not providing legal aid to russia, theyve been supplying enough equipment to help russias military stay afloat, despite all the damages it took in ukraine. Yeah. Certainly, china and this is one of the new elements that i talk about in the cover story. China very much sees itself in league with russia and in league with other autocraies and works with them and sees them as having some kind of common cause. Again, these are countries that have nothing in common, often, idealogically. Communist china, idealogical russia, there is no secret room where they plan things together, but they see themselves engaged in a common process. The common process is their desire to undermine us. In other words, to undermine the narrative of democracy. Again, as i said, to describe democracy as degenerate, divided, as chaotic, to show themselves as the only real alternative. The chinese have built an Enormous Network of media in africa as well as asia and latin america, all over the world, in order to push those arguments and push those stories. Theyre looking for allies. Theyre looking for allies in hungary and serbia. I think the trip to france has a slightly different purpose. Xi jinping is hoping to somehow break france off or europe off from america. I dont think at this point hell succeed, but he certainly has, you know there is a deep iranianchinese connection. There is a deep venezuelanchinese connection. China has deep, important relationships with places like zimbabwe, countries that use and share the similar kind of narrative. They see themselves as being a kind of vanguard. Were going to make the world safe for autocracy. Well change how the world is run. Well eliminate human rights and discussions of freedom from the global stage. Instead, were going to change the focus and use words like sovereignty. When the chinese use it, it means we get to decide what we do, and we dont want to wear any criticism from anyone else. The new cover story for the atlantic is out now. Annes upcoming book, autocracy inc. And the dictators who want to run the world, is out in july. Anne applebaum, we await that and look forward to that. Thank you for coming on this morning. Thank you for your piece. Thank you. In about two hours, donald trump is scheduled to be back in a New York City courtroom for the start of week four of his criminal trial. It follows a week of testimony capped off friday by trumps former confidant and longtime aide hope hicks, helping to further illustrate the Inner Workings of the former president s operation and how the alleged Hush Money Payments came about and why, potentially, they were more about the te election than Anything Else. Lets bring in nbc news legal analyst and former federal prosecutor andrew weissmann. Sort through the testimony for us. Weve heard from both sides that trump got what he needed from hope hicks. Others saying the prosecution got what they needed from hope hicks. Sort through it for us, if you will. Sure. You know, i was listening to your conversation in the last block and also with lisa rubin. You know, the piece where people think this may have had some benefit to the defense is one i really dont agree with because of the law the jury is going to be told at the end of the case. That is, what if donald trump acted out of dual motives . What if he was, in part, thinking of the campaign, and, in part, thinking about his family when he paid these Hush Money Payments . The law on that is clear. Dual motives are sufficient to convict. You do not have to have 100 thinking in my head, im only doing this for the campaign. In other words, if you have some part of you that is thinking, i also would not like my wife to find out, that doesnt mean youre not guilty. It is true, when this became public in 2018, of course donald trump was thinking, gee, i wonder how my wife is going to react to that, but that doesnt really mean that he didnt have a Campaign Motive before that. There, there was so much testimony in the last week from david pecker, keith davidson, and, finally, from hope hicks, saying from Donald Trumps own mouth saying, it is great that Michael Cohen paid this money so that it did not come out before the election. No one was thinking of paying Stormy Daniels until the access Hollywood Tape. No one was caring about Melania Trump before the access Hollywood Tape came out in midoctober. It was only that event that made it critical to suddenly pay the hush money before the election. Long way of saying that there was very strong evidence that was produced last week on this Election Conspiracy component and what is going to be coming up this week is going to be about the some things a lot more technical but a lot stronger, which is the false Business Records, which is the reimbursement of the 130,000 to Michael Cohen for having made those Hush Money Payments. Andrew, it is donny. Just 10,000 feet up from the last few days. There is a lot to come still, particularly Michael Cohen. How would you grade right now, ten looking like a conviction, one looking like an acquittal. Where do you see it based on what youve seen so far . You know, thats always a hard thing to know, whats going to happen with a jury. Youre just not in their head. Sure. If i compare it to other cases when i was a prosecutor, ive also been a defense lawyer, so far, this is a very strong case. I think hope hicks really filled a hole in the case that i think a lot of people were looking to see how the d. A. Was going to fill that hole. Was donald trump aware of the Hush Money Payments . There is no question that Michael Cohen paid them, but was donald trump aware of it . Hope hicks said that she had a conversation with donald trump where he acknowledged that he knew about the Hush Money Payments. In fact, said it was a good thing Michael Cohen did that so that it didnt happen before the election. So far, theyre doing really well. What remains to be seen is, can they show that donald trump was aware of the false Business Records . Thats really the critical link, but they havent started that yet. I think theyll start on that this week. So far, its been a it just shows such experience on the part of the d. A. , that he really put together, that he put up his ateam, in how it is going to far. Super quick, from what youre seeing in terms of the pacing so far, how long do you think this is going to go . Love that question. Really fast. Remember, this team was the team that did the Trump Organization tax case about a year and a half ago. That was lightning speed. That is a sign of a very experienced team, which is you go in and go out. You do not put on evidence that you do not need. That only gives the defense something more to shoot at. I think the biggest witness that is going to take time is Michael Cohen. Mostly because of crossexamination. I think, you know, in a week from now, i could easily see the state being done. Wow. I think theyre going to now be racing to finish. Former federal prosecutor andrew weissmann, as always, thank you so much for your analysis this morning. A week, thats surprising. That could be fast. Still ahead on morning joe, former Homeland Security secretary jeh johnson is standing by. He joins us next to weigh in on the protests and Police Crackdowns that weve been seeing on College Campuses nationwide. Youre watching morning joe. Well be right back. 39 past the hour. More dramatic confrontations between protesters and police at College Campuses across the weekend. The unrest impacting Commencement Ceremonies and forcing some schools to cancel graduation. These were the same, a lot of the same students who didnt have graduation four years ago because of covid. Nbc news correspondent maggie vespa is at the University Of Chicago with the latest. Reporter this morning, amid mounting chaos on americas College Campuses, another round of violent clashes between police and propalestinian protesters. Shame on you reporter at the university of virginia saturday, officers in riot gear pushed demonstrators and sprayed them with what Officials Say is pepper spray. 25 were arrested according to the university. Across the country at the university of southern california, sunday, close to 100 officers cleared a camp uscs president said protesters had rebuilt. Adding, areas of campus were blocked. People were harassed, and Iconic Trojan symbols were defaced. This had to stop. These latest flash points following weeks of clashes at roughly 75 campuses nationwide, according to a count by nbc news. Arrests now topping 2,400 as demonstrators demand schools divest from israel. Tensions rippling into the commencement season. Over the weekend at northeastern, one ceremony was interrupted as a protester covered in fake blood stormed the stage before being taken away by security. We respect your passion and your opinions. We respect your right to voice them in the appropriate setting. Reporter this morning, columbia rethinking its commencement plans. While a final decision has not been made, a source at the university telling nbc news, the main Graduation Ceremony is slated to be canceled. Two members of the Student Government saying it is due to security concerns. This after usc made the same call. New yorks mayor pushing back. I dont think we should allow anything to get in our normal way of life. I completely agree. These students, were allowing a small percentage of protesters, a very small percentage, to push aside Graduation Ceremonies for 99. 5 of the other students there. That doesnt seem fair. If there are people that interrupt, that can be taken care of. People can wait. But, my gosh, to take this away from students that have worked so hard i cant believe it. Over four, five years to graduate, i think, you know what, put your head down. Be adults. Figure out how to give these students the graduation they deserve. And understand you may be interrupted several times. Have security there to politely take those out. I think it could be complicated, lets put it that way. Could be. Joining us now, former secretary of Homeland Security in the obama administration, jeh johnson. He is a trustee at Columbia University. Columbia has authorized him to speak about last weeks events. Talk about your thoughts on graduation at columbia this year. Should it be canceled . Well, a decision on that, mika, i suspect, is eminent. To be announced. There are a range of considerations. Joe is absolutely right. Were talking about the class of 2024, which graduated high school in 2020. They did not have a High School Graduation because of covid. Everyone wants to be able to celebrate their achievements at columbia and elsewhere. But were in the midst of high anxiety, demonstrations, protest, and i know the administration at columbia is trying to work through all of that. I suspect that an announcement on what were going to do eminent. Jeh, im curious your thoughts as a columbia grad, as a columbia trustee, about what happened over the past several weeks. Youre also a lawyer, so you understand free speech. Yeah. Its not absolute. Correct. You have time, place, manner. Yup. Limitations to free speech. Im just curious, what could columbia have done better . These other schools, what could they have done better . What have we all learned, and how do we allow students to protest peacefully but not in a way that disrupts the entire Student Population or makes jewish students or maybe next time its muslim students, black students, hispanic students. Yeah. How do we allow protests to move forward in a way that doesnt threaten other students or make them feel like their physical safety is on the line . Joe, i can tell you that the set of decisions that president shafik, the president of columbia, had to work through over the last couple of weeks are the most difficult decisions i think ive seen in or out of government. They were emotional high stakes. There are several overriding principles you have to bring to bear. One is what you just said. There is no constitutional right that is unqualified. The First Amendment guarantees free speech, freedom of assembly. A university, a city, a village, a town always has to be able to regulate time, place, and manner. The other overriding consideration is the administration of a college or university. For them,rustees, the safety and welfare of the students is paramount. The safety and welfare of the university is paramount. Parents send their kids off. Theyre a full 18, 19, 20 years old, but parents want to know that, in our care, in our trust, theyre going to be safe. Calling in the police department, the nypd, was a very difficult decision. Its part of columbias heritage that we dont call the police. Any time you bring the police into a tense situation like this, joe, it carries risk. Im a product of my generation. I remember kent state. Deep in the recesses of my mind, i also remember atika, too. We had to call the police once things escalated to vandalism, the occupation of hamilton hall. We had no choice. Fortunately, the nypd acted with great professionalism in removing those who occupied hamilton hall. Now, we begin the healing process. Its my hope and the hope of all of Us Associated with columbia. Mr. Secretary, before i ask you a question, i want to respond to one thing in that setup piece, from northeastern. That man who was doing the thing with the and the person up there says, we appreciate you passion. Why do we walk around with kid gloves . If he was screaming, kill blacks, nobody would say, we appreciate your passion. Therein lies the problem. Ill bring it back to your question. Why, immediately, was it not an issue to bring in the police . Why was it a hard decision . Theyre not only breaking the law, theyre performing hate crimes. They are stoking violence. If it was against any other group, the police would be brought in. Why was that a tough decision . Donny, as i said, any time you introduce the police into a situation, it carries risk. Escalation of violence. I know president shafik hoped for a resolution of the protesters demands. We tried that. We failed. Then things escalated. We brought in the police. They mobilized very, very quickly. They were very professional in what they had to do. Going back to your broader point, in my mind, there is a very clear distinction between protest, demonstrations, the exercise of the First Amendment, to highlight the plight of the palestinians in gaza, versus demonstrations, placards, signs that spew hate, he hate all jews, that spew antisemitic messages. I always use the Civil Rights Movement as a model for this. Highlighting the plight of africanamericans in this country without broadcasting, we hate all whites, for example, you saw none of that in the Civil Rights Movement. Nor did you see the masks, frankly. Civil disobedience, the essence of civil disobedience is you may be violating some local Alabama State order, but you do so in a civil way. You accept the consequences. We saw that, for example, in the Edmund Pettis bridge. That moved the conscience of the nation. When you mask yourself, you dehumanize yourself and spew hate. I think it is a setback. In highlighting the cause for the Palestinian People, this is turning into a domestic political issue. It is turning into another law and order. Right. Like we had in 1968. Look what happened. Richard nixon got elected and the vietnam war raged on another four years. In fact, when we were talking about the protests and the violence and the law breaking on College Campuses, and there was law breaking on College Campuses, even no that may offend some for me to say, to tell the truth, there was, it actually took the palestinian plight off the front pages. Yeah. Since things have calmed down, were again talking about rafah. Yes. Were again talking about famine. Were again talking about the bombing that killed 14,000 children, 15,000 children. So, yeah, there was that distraction. I do, though, i want you to explain this, jeh, because you have a unique perspective that a lot of us dont, and that is the fact that had this whendont. The fact is when this happened in florida, it was must easier for the president of florida to say were going to clean this out. Were not a day school center, boom. He cleaned it out. He didnt have to worry about the faculty trying to get fired. It gets more complicated at a place like columbia, and we need to understand this. Why didnt the police get sent in the first day . Because you actually had members of the faculty that were actually encouraging the disruptions of the campus or actually encouraging the protests, let me say, in some instances, encouraging lawbreaking. So there was a segment of fak it that was ready to censure or suggest that the president be fired, and it was a much more difficult balancing act for columbias president than it may have been for floridas president or if this had happened at alabama or happened at, say, nebraska. Joe, thats absolutely right. Every Large College and university has its own character, its own dynamic. Columbia is one of the largest universities in the country. Its right smack dab in the middle of New York City, the Media Capital of the world. We have a very, very diverse large Student Population. Its essentially an International Student population. We have a very vocal faculty, faculty senate, University Senate with their own views, and part of the columbia history is we dont call the new York City Police department. We had. Done so on a large scale since 1968, and so you put all that together. It presents a unique set of very complicated highly emotional decisions. I expect university of florida is different, ucla. Morehouse college where i went to college, graduated, is different where President Biden is speaking in a week or two. Each school and university has its own character. Columbia was and is especially complex, and i compliment our president for working through all of these very, very complicated emotional issues to get to where we are. Former Homeland Security saurt and Columbia University trustee jeh johnson. Thank you very much. Coming up, well going to speak to an author about how things are changing america and how the latino voter plays a crucial role in the elections. Were back in two minutes. Crucial role in the elections. Were back in two minutes. While i am a paid actor, and this is not a real company, there is no way to fake how upwork can help your business. Upwork is half the cost of our old recruiter and they have toptier talent and everything from pr to project management because this is how we work now. If anything has come out of Hurricane Maria is that it has brought together our allies in the United States with puerto rico. And now together we cannot be stopped. Theyre living in a hotel. Theyre looking for a place, theyre looking for jobs, that youre looking for schools for their kids, and on top of that were telling them, oh, [ bleep ], and this is a historical election, and you got to be involved. In november cannot allow the people that care Longtime Community activist luis miranda jr. Encouraging a group of Puerto Ricans living in florida to make their voices heard at the ballot box in the 2024 election. Luis joins us now. Hes the author of a book that will be released tomorrow, relentless. Its great to have you on the show this morning. Luis, thank you so much for being with us. Theres so much attention being paid to hispanic voters because they are changing this country, the shape of the country, where its going politically. And right now you hear about the battle of both parties to try to get latino voters to move in their direction. From what youve seen as a community activist, what are the issues that matter the most to the latino voters that you work with day in and day out . Thank you for having me here. In fact, our issues are the normal issues that workingclass families worry about. We worry about inflation. Were worrying about the education of our kids. Were concerned about housing. We worry about immigration. Its the usual issues. And historically we have voted democratic, but weve always been a persuadable voter, not necessarily a base voter. Thats what we forget. We cannot go to latino communities every four years to remind them they have to come out and vote. We have to talk to them and involve them politically continuously. Luis, congrats on the book. Tell us what that would mean for democrats, for President Bidens reelection democratic campaign. How should they get involved and in part two, weve shown the clip of you in florida. Some now think because of the abortion rulings, maybe its in play. What do you think . I believe that we have to engage with the latino community. Its the only way to do it. And its not that difficult. President biden with everything that he has done with the unemployment being as low as it is, its running against a racist. Someone who gets on a stage and says that were poisoning the lot of this country. So its to remind people constantly what he has done with this administration in getting us out of the pandemic and remind people that were running against a racist. So, luis, to that poichblts, we cant pay too much attention to polls, but in this cycle, trump is doing better with latino voters. Please explain that then. First, you need to look at the methodology of those polls. Are we a very large segment of that poll or are we a miniscule number based on the methodology . The second thing we have to worry is were those interviews done in spanish or were they only done in english . And thats going to change the numbers. We know that latinos and i talk about it in relentless many, many times are not a monolithic group. Its based on where were coming from, what are the political conditions of our countries of origin generationally. So there are many factors affecting the latino vote, and republicans usually get anywhere from 25 to 35 of the latino votes. So if theyre within that margin, little has changed. You know, luis, im so glad youve underlined the fact that for too long people have looked at the latina community, the Hispanic Community as monolithic. I remember the 1990s talking to my democratic friends in congress saying, you understand that hispanics dont just care about immigration. They care about a lots of things. You also understand that and its the same thing reverend al and i talk about all the time with a lot of whack voters, hispanics are conservative with a small c. Many are conservative with a small c. So this idea of like the dnc knows exactly how all hispanics are going to vote and its a onesizefitsall approach, it doesnt work, and also its offensive to a lot of hispanic voters. And thats why the importance to talk to latinos constantly, and depending on where they live generationally and where they come from, the discussion may be a bit different. But what we know about latinos and its the reason why i wrote the book we believe that government has an Important Role to play in our lives, that government can give a helping hand when you need it, and then youre left to your own devices to make it. Thats why we came to this country. But we are always looking at government as a possibility for help, and thats why we havent voted republican ever in very large numbers. The new book is entitled relentless my story of the latino spirit that is transforming america. Luis miranda jr. , thank you so much for being on the show this morning. Thank you. Thank you. We really appreciate it. And the third hour of morning joe continues now. Well, its the first show of spring, so well start tonight with puppy murder. In a new book, south dakota governor christie gnome revealed she once shot a dog that was untrainable. Thats insane. If a dog is untrainable, you dont shoot it. You give it to President Biden. Insiders are saying noem seen here wearing the hair of that dog now has zero chance of being trumps running mate. I dont know. Something tells me trump would be fully supportive of killing disobedient pets. It keeps on going and she keeps on doubling down. First cleanup on aisle 4. And knocks down everything in aisle 5. Another possible running made for donald trump making headlines this morning. Were going to show you what senator tim scott of South Carolina had to say about accepting the results of this years election. More importantly and more to the point, to show you where the Republican Party is in 2024, what he said about not or what he didnt say actually about accepting the will of the people. Its just disturbing, and i guess we should except it at this point, but i will continue to be shocked. Its a sign of trumps party. Well show you that in a little bit. Also, well get you caught up on Donald Trumps Hush Money Trial, the criminal trial, which resumes later this morning in New York City. It comes after emotional testimony on friday from the former president s longtime aide hope hicks. Good morning on this monday morning, may 6. Welcome to morning joe. On this show we have Way Too Early host jonathan le meefrmt ed luce is with us. Rogers chair and the machinery president at Vanderbilt University historian jon meacham. We met, by the way. We understand that meacham was a difficult student. Thats what we were told yesterday by someone who taught Him Shakespeare at university of the south. And it was a headshaking response to how difficult difficult. I think she may have just been saying you already knew everything, and so, exactly. Thats probably what it was, yeah. Or thought you knew everything. Yes, okay. That is definitely true, yeah. Yeah . Also with us this morning, calmness to Associate Editor David Ignatius is with us. Hes the author of the new move out tomorrow, adequate Phantom Orbit. Hell tell us about that. These are so exciting, david. The amazing thing about your books and the few people who try to do this but cant quite do it as well as you do, there are often things you can write in these books that you cant write in nonfiction books. Its an accumulation of a lot of things that youve learned through the years that you just cant write because its been off the record. Its been deep background. Youve been, as meacham, places you shouldnt have gone. Crazy situations. But you put it altogether in these extraordinary books. I had a friend tell me, david, you tell more truth in your fiction than in your journalism. I dont know about that. But were talking about space warfare. Ukraine is the first space war. Those are the kinds of things im trying to deal with in this new novel. Wonderful. Well talk more about that. You talked ripped from the headlines. I was reading an article yesterday specifically about the fear of putins war in space and what countries across the world are trying to do to catch up with it. Lets get to our top story this morning. Two new polls find President Joe Biden narrowly leading donald trump in novembers General Election race. In a fiftd from abc news and ipsos, biden is up four points, 4945 . In the second from npr, pbs, and marist college, biden holds a fivepoint lead, 52 to 47 among registered voters who say they definitely plan to vote in november. That is still within the margin of error. What do you make at this point . Its kind of hard to take any poll that seriously, but what is it telling you in terms of the state of the race and also the fact that its tight given the options . Well, these polls in may just dont make a huge difference, but i will tell you, when i was a candidate myselfing i would take a poll from time to time. You want to see you want to test the temperature. And, again, as ive always said, you want to look at trends. We saw a couple of months ago, joe biden far behind in a lot of polls. These show something quite different, that hes now moving ahead of donald trump, again, among the likely voters. Polls of adults, polls of registered voters this far out, you really you might as well be watching housewives of beverly his, which i hear has really heated up quickly this season. But something as you dig into these polls makes this election unique, at least in america. I think its the way were going. Ed luce, i want to go to you really quickly. The Financial Times, i think, a couple of months ago talked about the Approval Ratings of candidates, president ial candidates, incumbents, just collapsed. And so if youre trying to predict how elections turned out, dont look at that. Youll have as much luck as they did in france when they were saying macron in the low 30s and ended up winning 57 , 58 of the vote. We see that here, especially the abc poll where joe bidens Approval Ratings are as low as theyve been. And on issues, donald trump doing better than the president in many areas, but then you start asking about who has better character, whos a better person, who understands people like you, and those sort of questions. And joe biden wins. In some of those, he wins by a great deal. Those Approval Ratings like the Financial Times reported several months ago, low Approval Ratings, and yet he still prevails, especially against a candidate like donald trump. Is that just where we are now because of social media and everything else, that youre just going to have president ial incumbents with low Approval Ratings that may end up like macron winning comfortably . Yeah, i think thats well put, joe. I mean the governments all around the democratic world have low Approval Ratings relative to most of the west of the west. America is the fattest growing economy, is doing far better, in fact, than countries across the atlantic, and yet bidens ratings are as low as they are there. So there is a general just antiincumbency feeling across the world. Were not really at the choice stage where most voters are focusing like we do obsessionally here in the beltway. I think once we do get those polls, ive always had after labor day, ive always had the hunch this is going to be a referendum on trump, not on biden, because trump will make it a referendum on bind. He cant help himself. You may think im being a bit pan depressiant, but i think biden has got the edge here. Im not going to live to regret those words. While you were talking, i wrote a note to mika saying, i fear thats being a bit handglossing. Its weird. We almost said the same thing to each other. We did. Its really strange. Its like finishing each others sentences. Its beautiful. In 2016 we look back. That was not about donald trump actually. That was about Hillary Clinton, on clinton, the bushes, the people who have run the country since 1980. And then 2020, obviously a referendum on donald trump. With all that hes saying, the fact that he has to Say Something shocking and new every day just to sort of amp up his base, 2024 will also be at the end of the day an referendum on donald trump. That make it is a referendum on the fact for our better angels, which is not panglossiant thats a conservative group and these instincts that the former president is articulating. Hes saying it all. So for those of us who believe that this is about democracy, democratic norms, a continuation substitution that for all its imperfections continues to enable us to try to create a more perfect union, all of which shouldnt necessarily be on the ballot, right . I mean, ordinarily were voting on a role of the state in the marketplace, were voting perhaps on the role of how we project force in the world. Those are the ordinary political choices. This is not that. This is about do you believe in a We The People . Do you believe in i am your retribution. And, so, yes theres a referendum on trump. And president ial politics is a choice. Its a binary choice. Although, i dont know if the polling shows this, how the thirdparty candidates are doing is going to matter enormously. You know, i believe 4945. That makes some sense to me. But when you introduce the other possibilities here, who does that hurt is really the important question, and as you said, really in about seven or eight states. And in this pole at least, the abc poll, even with all the other candidates introduced, joe biden still needs donald trump. It is, though, still in the range of the margin of rohr. You know, Jonathan Lemire, i wanted to follow up on what ed luce said offhandedly about the American Economy being superior to all other economies across the globe. Its not even close. As the Wall Street Journal said, the United States is the envy of the world. The emeritus said 2023 was the losers economy. We can pick through the numbers. Weve been complaining for the past year that the economy is too strong, that its too hot, that its pushing up inflation because its so strong. But, you know, people across the world are looking at our economy and postcovid and wondering how in the world we did it because it is so superior to other economies. Both our friends and our enemies. No question. In americas post pandemic economy, the enemy of the world. Some signs last week, that perhaps some of the heat was cooling off, that might have allowed the fed to tweak interest rates. Unclear whether that will happen. Lets be clear. National polls are only an outline. A week back had trump up five or six. Most are going in bidens direction now. As you know, this is not a campaign that will be run in the General Election. I is about the battleground states. Trump up more than biden, but virtually within the state of the margin of error. We heard over the weekend from some republicans that minnesota and virginia may be plagued. We should note, he came close to minnesota previously. David ig nation, we know the biden team, theres a couple of pickups they hope to get. Florida, more of a reach, but at the very least, theyll force republicans to spend resources. I know you had conversations with senior biden folks over the weekend. Gives your insights as to where they think the race stands . The interesting thing about this with my Biden Campaign officials show that a lot of people who voted for joe biden in 2020 arent convinced yet that donald trump will be the republican nominee. Once they become convinced of it, theres more of a chance theyll be talking about it. Theres not a referendum with joe biden on all of the weaknesses, but its on who the president was for four years, donald trump. And youll remind people systematically what that was like. You bring back all the memories that people had. Lets not forget in 2022 when republicans thought they would have a red wave, they didnt. Why . Because people look back at the trump years with a lot of distaste. I think thats basically their idea. One interesting thing, jonathan, is we think that with trump tied down in court in new york, scowling at everybody, looking like hes miserable, thats probably good for the campaign for biden. But actually the Biden Campaign would rather have him out of the country saying things that then get him in trouble. The Time Magazine interview is the perfect example. They feel like every time hes out there on the loose, he says something that remindings people this is how he would governor and thats what they feel theyve got going. Coming up, israel is brushing back against the u. S. And the latest from jeer us lem next on morning joe. From jee next on morning joe. Complete nutrition you need. Without the stuff you dont. So, heres to now. Boost. Joom nbc news and the Associated Press reports that cia director bill burns may have to travel to israel in an effort to free hostages from the gaza strip. Netanyahu said israel was not prepared to end the war permanently, saying such a move would leave hamas in power. Meanwhile a Defense Forces spokesman said around 100,000 Palestinian Civilians have been told to evacuate the city of rafah as israel appears poised to launch a new operation there. A senior Arab Negotiator directly involved in the talks with israel and the United States tells nbc news that the ceasefire negotiations are not over and have not collapsedlet it is not clear when or whether a major Rafah Operation could begin. Adding further complication to the ceasefire talks, this is an attack that happened yesterday near a southern Border Crossing into gaza, which killed four Israeli Soldiers and injured at least ten others. Hamas took responsibility for the assault that israeli and military Officials Say involved roughly 14 rockets and mortars. The idf in turn destroyed the weapon involved in carrying out the attack as well as other hamas military infrastructure. Theres no kitchen whether the crossing itself was the target of the attack. Joining us now from jerusalem is nbc news chief Foreign Correspondent Richard Engel. Richard, what more can you tell us this morning . Reporter so it seems we are at a crossroads right now. There had been some progress over the last several days to try to reach a ceasefire. The talks have fallen apart over the weekend, and now theres annest to cobble some of them back together. But there are real differences between hamass position and Benjamin Netanyahus position and his governments position. So we either have a deal, and theres definitely an effort to try to reach a deal, or the deal is blown up and Israeli Forces go in to rafah. Both seem likely and pressure is being put on both of these fronts right now. So let me start with theyre absolutely interrelated. Let me start on the ceasefire front and the pressure being put on rafah and you mention the evacuation orders. First there was an attempt to reach a ceasefire. There were hamas negotianegotia egyptian negotiators, all meeting in various locations, kyrie primarily, and hamas says it wants to make a deal. It was are ready to make a deal. Israel didnt send a negotiator to that forum, and the talks fell apart. They fell apart because the two sides dont agree on what the deal is ultimately going to achieve. What hamas says it wants is an end to this round of fighting, an end to this current conflict, not an end globally to the palestinian israeli conflict, but an end to the fighting, and it wants israeli troops to pull back. That would leave effectively hamas some sort of government in charge, and in exchange for that, for israel p agreeing to end the conflict and pulling out, there would be hostage releases. The Israeli Government says it will not accept that. It will only give a temporary ceasefire days and weeks in order to get hostages out and would continue go after hamas and palestinians. Including representatives, they say, that doesnt make any sense. They would have to lease the only leverage its holding, about a hundred of them still believed to be alive. They say once you lease them, were still going to go after you and try to eliminate you. The main city is rafah. There was an attack in that area yesterday carried out by hamas that you just mentioned. That is also where the hamas leadership is holding out, is the last place still under hamas effective control. Theyre there, they dont want to see them move in in a major way. President biden says he doesnt want to see the Israeli Military move in in a ma i superior way. It would with be a catastrophe. But he says the only way to eliminate hamas, take over by power, is to go in through rafah. Today we saw the first concrete action israel may do that. Dropping leaflets, messages to hundreds of thousands, telling them to leave because a Major Military action is coming. The Major Military action in rafah hasnt started yet. It could be a warning. It could be part of a Negotiating Tactic because like i said earlier, both things are related. It could be israelis are trying to put pressure on hamas saying not only are we prepared to come into rafah, were already doing it. So youder agree too the to the terms right now. Well see if theres some sort of deal perhaps emerging in the next several days. Coming up, donald trump is due back in criminal court just minutes from now. Well have a live report from Lower Manhattan as the expresident s trial enters a new week. Morning joe is back in a moment. New week morning joe is back in a moment sup . Who are you . Im your inner child. Get in. Listen, what you really need in life is some freakin torque. What . Horsepower keeps you going, but torque gets you going. What happened to my inner child craving love and acceptance . How about you love and accept this . Pppppowershot when can i drive . You already are the dodge hornet r t. The totally torquedout crossover. And theyre all coming . Those who are still with us, yes. Grandpa whats this . Your wings. Light em up gentlemen, its a beautiful. Day to fly. Ja donald trump complained none of the supporters with with him. Thats not true. What about all of those cops . Former President Trump seen here definitely not sleeping. Hes probably just praying. Former President Trump for the first time in his trial wrote a message on a yellow postit note and handed it to his lawyer while he was make ang argument. The postit simply cant pay you. Didnt trump say he wasnt asleep. He was closing his beautiful blue eyes and taking it all in yep, taking it all in. On friday trumps former confidante and longtime aide took the stand. Hope hicks spoke about what it was like during the 2016 Election Campaign and how the alleged Hush Money Payments caming. Lets bring in lisa rubin. Lisa, everyone was talking about sort of the emotional part of this where hope broke down, but what is it that she brought to the table in terms of what the prosecution is looking to prove . I think, mika, that hope was the most valuable witness on the context of what was happening in the campaign in october 2016 that would have led Michael Cohen and donald trump to believe that a payoff to stormy dan walls was not just advisable but absolutely necessary to preserve his chances. I had a chance to reread the testimony over the weekend once we have the transcript, and the timeline that she puts into motion is absolutely devastating. It starts with being notified of the access hoyle tape by the Washington Post. Shes the first person in the campaign to understand that the Washington Post has the tape and the transcript on october 7th. Once the tape is released and the article is published, so many things happen in rapid succession. A number of american republicans quickly december associate themselves from the campaign. Youve got another tape and rumor about it coming to her the next day on october 8th. Then by october 9th. Trump has his next debate. The first question out of the gate is about the access Hollywood Tape. By october 10th, the New York Times is Publishing Reports of other problematic behavior that trump has had with women. And by the 15th and 16th, trump is again on the offensive, pushing aback against these other womens stories, not stories involved Stormy Daniels and Karen Mcdougal but others what have Accused Trump of misconduct shechts taken us through in rapidfire progreg, one thing after another from the access Hollywood Tape, which they cannot get out from under. Its no wonder after seeing her testimony, Michael Cohen, david pecker, and others are engineering these payment settlements because they needed the problem to go away as opposed to continuing throughout november and up until election day, mika. So politico says in their Story Reporting on this, hope hicks offered the defense their first glimmer of hope and says trumps lawyers plan is toe text trumps families. Prosecutors are taking the fraudulent Business Records and violations of election laws. There were parts of her testimony where she actually did say he was doing it to protect the family, right . Yes and no. I would say she said it was a motivation, but not the motivation or eve the principal motivation. Its like having two hungry mouths to feed. If the defense is one of them, she gave them a nice and tasty dessert, but saved the bulk of it for the prosecution. Hope hicks at the very end of her testimony describes the conversation she had with donald trump very shortly thereafter where he told her he had spoken to cohen and cohen had made that payment out of the guideness of his heart to protect trump from false accusations. Hope didnt believe that, but what she said next was the more devastating thing. Trump said to her, i think its better that this came out now instead of during the campaign and michael had. Made that payment at all. She was conveying for donald trump. The most important factor was not melanias feelings but preserving his electoral chances. Lisa, lets look ahead to this week. What do we know about who we might hear from and is there more gage detail orders to get through . I believe there was going to be a second hearing for some gag order rules broken. Lets start with the second part. There was that second hearing. I do not believe that the punishment for the alleged violations will be incarceration in part, mika, because they happened before the first hearing, and so if donald trump is going to be warned forhis Criminal Contempt, this wouldnt have done it. In terms of what to expect this week, i think its really anybodys guess, but i feel like hope hicks is the last within at least for right now to testify to the formation of the conspiracy to get donald trump elected by paying off these wimg and that we should be moving into the real heart of the matter here, which is the the falsification. Who are we likely to see . A number of trump employees involved in the general ledger statements. We also hear from trumps treasury skpoec active assistant in the whus. You may ask what does she have to do with all of this . She has to place the nine chokes in front of donald trump to sign. Theres a discussion, how do we send these back and forth. Count on them being a critical witness to establishing that tup has knowledge and participation in this portion of the crime, which as i said, is really at the heart of what the d. A. Has to prove. Coming up on the heels of a big rally. Cnbcs an drou ross sorkin explains how the fight against inflation is shaping up. Morning joe is coming right back. Shaping up. Morning joe is coming right back my moderate to Severe Plaque Psoriasis held me back. Now with skyrizi, im all in with clearer skin. Things are getting clearer. i feel free. To bear my skin, yeah thats all me. Nothing is everything with skyrizi, 3 out of 4 people achieved 90 clearer skin at 4 months. And most people were clearer even at 5 years. Skyrizi is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. Serious allergic reactions. And an increased risk of infections. Or a lower ability to fight them may occur. Tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms,. Had a vaccine, or plan to. Nothing and me go handinhand, nothing on my skin, thats my new plan. Nothing is everything nows the time,. Ask your doctor about skyrizi,. The number one. Dermatologistprescribed biologic in psoriasis. Learn how abbvie could help you save. [kettle hisses] oh my god. [phone rings] at the tone, please record your message. [clock ticks] [narrator] we just shipped our millionth monthly coffee subscription box so were sending custom thank you gifts to our team. Our custom ink rep is just as excited as we are and knows what great quality products to get. Celebrate your milestones with custom gear. Get started today at customink. Com. To fiction that sounds like reality, tell us about your new book, Phantom Orbit. Its about warfare thats really arrived. We dont think of it, but ukraine war is really the first space war. All of the Communications Equipment that allows ukraine to keep fighting in this war, its targeting, Intelligence Assessment is happening through the space systems. Russians who realize that are finding new ways to take those systems down. My new book opens with a russian scientist who believes he has discovered a russian chinese kill switch that can turn off the gps system on which we rely for basically every aspect of our commercial lives. Gps runs transportation. Every cellphone connects with gps. So he sees this as kind of a Weapon Of Mass Destruction in the hands of the russian chinese, and he decides he has to tell them about it. They dont do anything with it. Weeks pass and nothing happens. And the question that we open the book with is why . The book then pulls back and looks at the root of this mans obsession with space systems, his relationship with an American Woman whos a cia officer, and moves toward the prenlt moment and the ukraine war is going on, and all these issues are really a matter of life and death for our character and for our countries. But i think the basic takeaway, joe and mika, is were entering a new world in warfare. Its the the next war will begin in space, may end in space, and these are systems that people havent really begun to think about. The pleasure of being a novelist at the time im not a journalist i get to think in a broader way about whats coming and the eric kerrs who are driving it. The Washington Posts david ig nation, thank you. His new novel, Phantom Orbit is officially out tomorrow. Thank you, david, for coming on this morning. Coming up, our next guest talks about the status of the ceasefire talks between israel and hamas. Peter baker joins us when morning joe comes right back. Morning joe comes right back this morning. This morning. Your body is nothing but a host of org annisms ready to cause an infection, cause an infection, cause an infection. He must think im really crazy. Think arent exactly my strong suit. I swear to god hes so schmitt snoon how do you know . Because i have eyes. Why is it so easy for me to talk to you . Maybe because our hearts are broken in the same places. I bet if you guys actually kissed, you would not be thinking about the millions of microbes. That was a look at part of the trailer of the new movie titled turtles all the way down. The film follows the live of teenager aza holmes as she struggles to hold text her mental closest friendships and new relationship, all while learning that a fulfilling and happy life is possible for her. Joining us is the author of turtles all the way down john green and the director hannah marks. Tell us about the backstory, the origin of the book. Ive lived with obsessivecompulsive disorder for almost all of my life and had major depression. When i wrote it the fault in our stars had come out. It was really the only thing i could write about. I wasnt doing have well, so it was an act of trying to find my way through. Talk to us about the decision of talking about your ocd in the book. Was it challenging, liberating, a little bit of both . A little bit of both. Its hard to talk about my own Mental Health in the context of fiction, but i wanted to find some direct form of expression for the pain that comes with these obsessive thoughts. Frankly, hollywood has done a terrible job of portraying ocd and books have as well. I represent all of hollywood. Youre the standin for this moment. The challenge john speaks about of trying to present ocd, a Mental Health issue and do it in an appropriate and accurate way . So much of it came from johns book, which was so beautifully written. That gave us a strong foundation. I also struggled with similar issues to aza, so i connected with her as a character right away. We wanted to show ocd represented as we experience it. Not every case is the same, of course, but i think this was a really good step forward. We both talk about shows like monk and what we feel are less accurate representations. This felt like the next step. This is about educating and also destigmatizing . I think destigmatizing. I dont think we view it as homework, this movie, or a psa. I just think its something people can relate to, especially younger generations. Tell us about the plot. Its a cool story. Its not just about Mental Health. Its also a murder story, a romance, a buddy movie. Aza is experiencing all this for the first time, but really through the lens of her ocd. Hannah made such a good movie. She made a beautiful film thats really funny and warm and big hearted and at the same time finds a way to tell the truth about what these experiences are really like. Lets take a look at the film where the main characters aza and daisy embark on a canoe expedition. This water has to be like 50 european. Thats the good half. Im kidding. This water is teeming with bacteria. What a day. The sun is shining, canoes floating. Were about to live the american dream, benefitting from someone elses misfortune. There are some laughs in this. For sure. Hannah made a really funny movie. The best friend who plays daisy in the movie is so good. People living with Mental Illness are still living with it. They still have rich, complex lives. If you take away anything from the movie, there is hope even when your brain tells you there isnt and a lot of life left to live. John is so great at writing humorous subject matter with levity and optimism. I hope people see it and laugh and are moved by it. The movie turtles all the way down is available to stream on max. Thank you both. Well be right back with more morning joe. Well be right back with more morning joe. [coughing] copd isnt pretty. Im out of breath, and often out of the picture. But this is my story. and with oncedaily trelegy, it can still be beautiful. Because with 3 medicines in 1 inhaler, trelegy keeps my airways open for a full 24 hours and prevents future flareups. Trelegy also improves lung function, so i can breathe more freely all day and night. Trelegy wont replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. Tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high Blood Pressure before taking it. Do not take trelegy more than prescribed. Trelegy may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. Call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain occur. What a Wonderful World [laughing] ask your doctor about oncedaily trelegy for copd because breathing should be beautiful, all day and night. Today, at americas beverage companies,. Our bottles might still look the same. But they can be remade in a whole new way. Thanks to you. Were getting bottles back. And weve developed a way to make new ones from 100 recycled plastic. New bottles made using no new plastic. Youll be seeing more of these bottles in more places. And when we get more of them back. We can use less new plastic. See how our bottles are made to be remade. Welcome to the fourth hour of morning joe. Its 6 00 a. M. On the west coast, 9 00 a. M. In the east. Joining us now, peter baker, reverend al sharpton and Jonathan Lemire as well. Last hour we had jeh johnson here. He was talking about columbia making some tough decisions and having to balance a lot of different interests. It sounds like columbia has come up with a compromise for graduation. This morning weve been following these developments on College Campuses across the country after weeks of protests over the israel hamas war in gaza. Its impacted graduations in a number of places. Lets bring in antonia hilton, who has the latest on the plans at columbia. What decision did they come up with . Columbia has Just Announced minutes ago that theyre going to cancel their mainstage graduation, similar in fashion to what usc has decided to do. Instead, theyre going to focus on individual schoollevel ceremonies and class days. This means the power and propulsion around the graduation are going to be in the hands of School Administrators and the students themselves. Nbc was the first to report last week that these conversations were in motion. School officials told us they were concerned about security. Student government leaders told us they were concerned about columbias president speaking to the crowd in that classic ceremony, that that could create quite a difficult situation. There could be protests that would disrupt the day for students and families. They are urging families that they dont have to change their travel plans, but certainly this is going to cause some upset today. This seems like a good compromise to me. Youre talking about like, for instance, the Engineering School will have their own ceremonies, political school. Theyll still get recognition. For instance, when i graduated from law school, it was a smaller ceremony of 200 students and parents. It was still special. Thats exactly what were talking about. Students are going to get to wear the graduation garb, get diplomas and interact with deans and School Leaders with whom theyre already very familiar. Theyre not going to have that single commencement celebration. Columbia planned to have one in the morning and one in the evening. The schools president would be addressing the schools. The concern is that you might not get some of the classic imagery of students in that large crowd being able to celebrate together. That may sound like a small thing, but you have to remember these undergrads when they graduated from high school in 2020, many were socially distanced, some in cars, some on zoom and had to get their diploma later. Especially for firstgeneration families, the parents of kids who never went to college, this is going to be difficult to process. Jonathan lemire, maybe its just me. Maybe im a little grumpy at times with ceremonies. Impatient. If your last name starts with s and you have this huge thing, mr. Anderson, mr. Anderson im serious. The smaller ceremonies are special. These are the professors and administrators, this is your community. Maybe some people would love the huge ceremony, but this is actually more personalized and dispersed. It sounds like a good compromise to me. Youre a columbia grad. Theres the individual College Level and the individual school level graduation, known as class day. Thats when you go up on the stage and get the diploma and the handshake. That is still going to happen. The larger commencement, theres no individual recognition. They just name a school, law school, business school, everyone stands up and sits back down. No ones name is read. Traditionally the University President will give a speech. Its the individual classes and schools that get the speakers. I think thats right. Yes, it is, of course, a shame that everything could not happen. But if there were concerns of safety, if the sheer size of the university were a problem and the nypd were concerned, this feels like a reasonable compromise. I wonder who the speaker was. I dont know. Youre talking about a famous alumni. Maybe jonathan will go from college to college speaking. And be the interim speaker. That would be very exciting. Breaking news from nbc this morning, again, columbia is going to forego the universitywide celebration and instead do it by schools. Peter baker, i want to bring you in. Lets expand this out to the news that was at the heart of these protests, and that is whats going on in israel, whats going on in gaza. More importantly, this morning for the families of the hostages and also for those wanting a ceasefire, which i think are most americans, whats the very latest on the hostage negotiations and ceasefire negotiations. The weekend didnt produce the kind of agreement that families wanted. At this point, the white house and the Biden Administration arent giving up. They say theyre still working on it, still working through the details on the specific proposal on the table. They have not gotten a definitive no from hamas. Both sides, of course, are posturing to some extent in order to get a stronger position in the negotiation. Its hard to read the tea leaves and see whether or not some of the things are genuinely digging in or if theyre trying to get to the best deal. This is hard. I think that everybody understands that time is running short. You saw the israelis are starting to talk about evacuating civilians out of rafah in preparation for something the Biden Administration would like to avoid. Theres a lot on the table right now. It seems to me from news reports and reporting that we heard earlier this morning, there are two very conflicting positions hamas and the Israeli Government is taking. Hamas wants a total end to the war that will keep them in power. Thats obviously something that will never be acceptable to israel. Hamas will never be allowed to govern again in gaza, they just wont. On the other side, the israelis want the hostages back. They want a limited ceasefire. Theyve been talking about going into rafah and finishing hamas off. Its extraordinarily difficult. Based on your reporting, where is the white house and the president on this . What direction do bill burns and tony blinken getting from the president . Theyve been trying to finesse it with a phrase called sustainable calm. The israelis have agreed to pursue a sustainable calm beyond the first temporary ceasefire. Sometimes in diplomacy you have a phrase or agreement that is not particularly precise so all sides can interpret it however they choose to. Does sustainable calm mean the end to the war . The israelis are not willing to commit to that. Obviously the americans would like that. Maybe well get six weeks of calm, and during that period negotiate the next stage and a permanent end to the conflict. Thats, of course, requiring a lot of good faith and trust among parties that dont have it for understandable reasons. Its a rubiks cube of diplomacy here. Theres the hostages, the fighting, rafah, what happens afterwards, who governs gaza, what happens with the saudis, what happens in terms of a twostate solution and reconstruction . So many different factors play into this. You can only do so much with any one agreement. Jonathan lemire, we just got a breaking news alert updated a few minutes ago. Israeli military warns thousands in rafah to evacuate. Those warnings are continuing. Im curious what the Biden Administration is doing right now in their talks with Benjamin Netanyahu and the Israeli Government regarding this. Perhaps its just leverage for negotiations. But if it is not, were looking at warnings that would suggest theres going to be an imminent attack on rafah. Whats the administration doing . Theres not a call scheduled between President Biden and Prime Minister netanyahu. That could change at any time, but the two administrations are in constant contact. Theres still some hope for this lastminute ceasefire for hostages, but that hope is fading. The u. S. Could not have been clearer. They do not want an allout assault on rafah. If it were to happen, theres some real discussion in the west wing of making changes to israeli policy, like holding back weapons sales. The president has been reluctant to do that. He still is, but he may not have a choice, aides tell me, depending on what happens in rafah. If it is a limited strike, the u. S. Has said they would bless that. They understand a limited strike to get hamas leaders. But if it is an allout assault that is perceived to not safeguard civilians, i think well have the u. S. Respond with some ferocity. I think well have some great global anger, fears of the region being in flames. This is a delicate moment in this conflict, one that netanyahu seems to be inflaming. Those leaflets are coming. Theres talk of this invasion soon. The israelis say it would still be a week or two before they have the assets in place to move in, so theres still a little bit of time. Theres the option of the Biden Administration saying, if you do that, youre doing that without any u. S. Weapons. That would be big. That would be problematic, obviously. Its important for americans to understand while we have been very critical of Benjamin Netanyahu and the white house has been critical of Benjamin Netanyahu, the idea of leaving hamas in place in gaza as a governing force is not an option for the israeli people. Regardless of who the Prime Minister of israel is, that would be their position. If hamas wants to leave gaza, im sure they would be open to that, but hamas will never govern gaza again. The israelis will never allow that to happen, whether its Benjamin Netanyahu or the most liberal Prime Minister israel could find. As we follow this, we will, of course, be watching. Biden is supposed to speak with Benjamin Netanyahu today. Well see what comes out of that meeting. Turning to politics now, weve been talking about the shifting attitudes happening in america. Some call it the trump effect, toward violence, toward cruelty and behavior that there was a day that it seemed unacceptable. We saw a number of examples in the past few days of the impact donald trump is having on the Republican Party and on political discourse. First, here is south dakotas republican governor kristi noem continuing to defend the anecdote that she talks about in her new book. She tells the story in her book of killing her 14monthold puppy cricket, shooting it dead in a gravel pit. Yesterday she seemed to suggest President Bidens dog commander should meet a similar fate. You talk multiple times about it. In fact, at the end of the book, you say the very first thing you would do if you got to the white house that was different from joe biden is youd make sure joe bidens dog was nowhere on the grounds. Commander, say hello to cricket. Are you doing this to look tough . Number one, joe bidens dog has attacked 24 Secret Service people. How many people is enough people to be attacked and dangerously hurt before you make a decision on a dog and what to do with it . Hes not living at the white house anymore. Thats a question the president should be held accountable to. Youre saying he should be shot . What is the number . I would say about republicans criticizing me, these are the same republicans that criticized me during covid. Theyve criticized me when i made other decisions in south dakota to protect my state. Glorifying violence also played out on another news network on friday during a discussion about the president ial medal of freedom. Two hosts joked and laughed about the brutal attack on paul pelosi during a Home Invasion that fractured his skull in 2022. Take a listen to this. It was probably more likely to go to paul pelosi, susan rice and gavin newsom. Maybe paul pelosi needs the hammer instead of the medal. [ laughter ] its metal. Rachel, we wish him well. Reverend al, you have, again, somebody talking about killing a 14monthold puppy, thinking it will make her look tough and then somehow conflating that with being able to deal with difficult situations in front of foreign leaders, in front of foreign dictators. And then you have on another news network punchlines about the savage attack with a hammer on an 82yearold man that almost killed him and joyful laughter. I would say this was limited just to this interaction on the network, but we have seen donald trump joke about this, paul pelosi almost being murdered for political reasons while the person is shouting, wheres nancy, wheres nancy. When donald trump jokes about it, the audience laughs. Its moments like that that i ask the question who raised these people . Who raised these people to laugh at the attempted murder of an 82yearold man inside his own home . Well, that is why i think we must be really, really careful and vocal about normalizing and in some ways trying to make humor out of violence like it is acceptable behavior. Lets not forget, before we get to governor kristi noem talking about how she shot her puppy, we have donald trump saying if he shot a human being on 5th avenue, his people would wrote for him anyway. People covered that like it was a normal president ial candidate statement. I think those of us, whether were on the right or left, whatever our beliefs, need to come out loudly, particularly if it is people youre in agreement with and say, wait a minute, there is a line to cross in terms of violence. Thats why i said im for what the students have done in terms of standing up for the people in gaza, but dont go to violence, because then you become equal in terms of how they try to project it. It may be different, but you dont need any violence that would in any way act like any violence is acceptable. Lets remember, joe and mika, donald trump started this by talking about i could shoot somebody on 5th avenue like it was nothing. He set the tone. Then he said beat up people in his campaigns. Those of us who believe in nonviolence or peaceful coexistence need to say no matter what side it is, thats unacceptable and should not be allowed in the political space. Im trying to think how many years ago its been that Steve Scalise was shot on a baseball field. I think it was a bipartisan baseball game. Yeah. Even now making a joke about it would be its never well, theres nothing to joke about. Theres absolutely nothing its not about timing. And, no, were not snowflakes. This is disgusting behavior to laugh about a guy who was attacked and brutalized during a Home Invasion in the middle of the night. I would assume theyre all still traumatized by that. Why is that funny . Hes still impacted and will be for the rest of his life. How in the world could that be funny . Peter baker, were not just talking about what happened on this news network over the weekend. This has actually been part of Donald Trumps stump speech where hell make fun of paul pelosi and make fun of nancy pelosi and say, i wonder how hes doing right now. The audience will laugh. Yeah. Theres a crudeness to it and it has a certain appeal, i guess, to the crowd that reacts to it. Its about obviously candidates and politicians and media figures but its also about the audience. If we didnt react to it and we didnt cheer or laugh, they wouldnt do it, right . Its a reflection of the coarsening of the culture. If you look online, the number of people saying things online they would never say to you in person, by the way is remarkable. Its very disheartening. Its hard to see how you have a civil conversation in a country where the discourse has coarsened in such a way. You know, so much of it is online and so much of it is driven by donald trump. Ill tell you, rev, when i meet people on all sides of the political spectrum and im sure you find the same thing you know, i guess i should knock on wood here, but theyve been polite. Most of them are polite. In person you can sit down and talk to people who might come up and say, hey, why are you saying this or why are you saying that, and you can sit and have a polite conversation person to person. For the most part, thats always been my experience. Of course, once in a while somebody will shout something at you when youre walking past, but thats the exception and not the rule. Social media brings a coarseness to this. Lets call it out. Its donald trump that gives the permission structure to talk about the attempted murder of an 82yearold man, and the audience laughs at him because this has become part of his entertainment scheme. Its been since 2016, talking about violence, talking about Second Amendment solutions to shoot and kill Hillary Clinton so she cant appoint justices, talking about beating up people protesting and donald trump saying in the good old days theyd be taken out on a stretcher, or saying if you beat somebody up, ill pay your legal bills. Or praising a congressman for beating up a reporter because he asked a question about health care reform. Donald trump has provided that permission structure. Sadly, were seeing it spread. Other republicans are talking about committing acts of violence, whether its laughing about paul pelosi getting hammered or saying rip somebodys hands that are glued, rip their skin off or throw them off of bridges. Were seeing this being mainstreamed in Donald Trumps Republican Party. That is the real threat. Its being mainstreamed and it seems acceptable. People in leadership positions have to set the example themselves. I was saying to some young people last week, many years ago there was a black teenager killed in the bensonhurst section of brooklyn. One saturday a young white male ran out the crowd and stabbed me in the chest. They put me in the hospital. When he went on trial, i went to court and forgave him, not because it didnt traumatize me, but because i wanted to set an example because some of the young people in the neighborhood were talking about were going to burn the town down, they stabbed reverend al. I still have the surgical scar. Youve got to be bigger than your impulses if youre going to lead. Donald trump has fed the wrong impulses in this country and has in many ways weaponized people. He needs to be called out on that by republicans. We on the left should call out people who violently protest. Those that come in and try and inflame it for anarchistic ways, we need to say, no, thats not how we do things. It would really help if republicans would step up at this moment in our history. Peter baker, what are you reporting on today . Well, theres so much to cover. I wrote a story over the weekend about the zeitgeist in washington as they come to realize donald trump may come back and how a lot of boldname faces you would recognize who didnt want to say it on the record engage in gallows humor these days about where they would go. If trump comes back, where would you go . People say, well, im researching my family. I have irish roots, it turns out. I may be able to get a passport. Lets buy some property overseas. Some of them are joking, some of them are serious. Its the nervousness in washington about a candidate coming back who talks about being a dictator, who talks about putting general milley to death, who talks about having immunity even for assassinating political rivals. Every four years you have some people say, well, if the other guy wins, im leaving the country, i cant stand it anymore. I think right now the conversation is much more serious than ive ever heard before and not necessarily about whether they would go or not, but the sense of fear and uncertainty about where the country is going, what would it mean if you have a person in the oval office that say things like donald trump. Take him seriously, especially if youre on his enemies list. Senator tim scott in the running to be one of trumps vp picks asked six times whether he would accept the results of the election and he just would not answer. The only thing i can say is with all this criminal stuff, there are some things that are different this time around for donald trump on the Campaign Trail. First of all, hes stuck in court. Secondly, all the people that were with him the first time that he ran for office, ivanka, jared, tiffany, melania, theyre not with him. Its a very different campaign, very dark. Youre saying in court. Im talking about on the Campaign Trail theyre not with him. I would suspect theyll be with him by the end. We dont know whats going to happen. If you ask the biden team whether they would have donald trump silent in court or running his mouth on the Campaign Trail, they would all prefer him to be outside the courtroom and running his mouth on the Campaign Trail, because thats where you get a better look into Donald Trumps soul. Peter baker, thank you. Coming up, Donald Trumps criminal trial resumes in just a few minutes. Well get a live report from outside the courthouse in lore manhattan. Plus, a massive free concert on one of the most iconic beaches in the world. Well tell you which famed performer drew over 1. 5 million fans to her free show on saturday night. Thats next on morning joe. Tut thats next on morning joe. More than 1. 6 Million People crowded onto the famed copacabana beach in brazil saturday night, turning out for a free concert by madonna. The 2 1 2 mile stretch of sand was turned into a massive dance floor as the 65yearold pop icon put on a free concert to mark the final stop on her Celebration World tour. Fans also watched the performance from apartments and hotels overlooking the beach as well as from boats anchored in the nearby harbor. The show included giant screens, 18 sound towers spread out along the beach. They showed up for madonna. Its kind of cool. Shes 65. Look at that. Berkshire hathaway held its annual shareholders convention over the weekend. On saturday Warren Buffett spoke on a wide range of topics, including Federal Reserve chairman Jerome Powells handling of the economy and the quickly evolving field of artificial intelligence. Andrew ross sorkin is with us. What were some of the major takeaways from this years convention in omaha . It wasnt as many as madonna had, but 40,000 people did come out to see Warren Buffett, who is still energetic at 93 years old. It was actually an emotional meeting because his partner Charlie Munger passed away last year at the age of 99 just about a month before he was to turn 100. I have to admit i even cried at one point. They shared a movie that was just so emotional. I think the biggest takeaway was, i think, in Warren Buffetts mind there is some true caution about where the economy is. I know we talk about how the economy is going gangbusters and seems to be quite good despite some of the inflation issues and the like. But i think theres some level of which he may think the market is possibly overvalued. He did trim his stake in apple, which is their largest holdings. He also talked about ai and his anxieties, frankly, about what he thinks it could portend not just for the economy, but for society. There were a lot of fascinating takeaways from this years meeting that has people this morning on wall street talking. The biggest is where we are for the market right now and some of his cautions about it. You talked last week about how you stopped drinking starbucks. I cant do it. It doesnt taste good. I thought it was just florida. It tastes different. There are people who agree with me on social media. The former ceo of starbucks is slamming his former company for its weakerthanexpected performance. What can you tell us about this . This is a remarkable turn in the story of starbucks. Howard schultz, the longtime ceo of the company, no longer the ceo, coming out publicly on linkedin, writing a lengthy post about the problems he sees with starbucks and how to effectively fix them. If you read between the lines, hes very frustrated with this companys management, with the board about how theyve approached it, what he sees as a transactional approach to managing the company. He seems to think there needs to be a major reinvestment in the online app and how the experience is at the stores. Its very rare where you hear a former ceo criticizing the company that they built. Theres now speculation that an activist investor could emerge in this company and even speculation about whether an activist investor would want to partner with Howard Schultz and bring him back. Hes come back three times, by the way. Unclear that he wants to come back per se, but clearly theres something in terms of the relationship that has been broken between the company and him. What do you think, andrew, about starbucks problem and why it seems that howard has to keep coming back . Why is it so unmanageable unless hes running the company . Its a great question. I dont have an answer for it. You know, Howard Schultz, i think, may be the soul of the company. He talks a lot about become a servant leader. He always says, if the company can exceed the expectations of the employees, the employees can exceed the expectations of customers. Its actually a very unique way of thinking. I think a lot of the ceos who have been in place in between the times when howard has have, in truth, been more transactional, more operational, if you will. Thats considered a good thing in many ways, but on the flip side may not have that soul piece of it all. Andrew ross sorkin, thank you so much. This is from the New York Times. I find you in Criminal Contempt for the tenth time, said justice juan merchan, who said he is concerned that donald trump has not taken heed of his prior findings going forward. This court will have to consider a jail sentence, the last thing i want to do is put you in jail. Thats the news out of the courthouse this morning. Joining us is Yasmin Vossoughian live in Lower Manhattan. Thats a tough warning moments ago from the judge. What did he say . And what else is happening in court today . Reporter yeah. It was a big moment, i think, mika. We were awaiting a decision on the possible contempt charges for the former president , violations of the gag order, four of them separately that were issued last week. We were awaiting a decision from judge merchan. He kind of took us through some major moments this morning as court got up and going and kind of talking about the gravity of a situation of putting a former president of the United States and even possible future president of the United States in jail for contempt of court and the fact that it would also involve Secret Service if he were to be put in jail if he were to violate this gag order. He understands and sees that the 1,000 fines are not really making a difference and knows that he has to job to do in spite of how difficult the decision may be, he said. Although he is not putting him in jail for now, it seems to be another threat for the former president to not continue to violate this gag order. Were awaiting that decision, because it was handed over to the prosecution around the defense. They did not read that from the bench. When we get it, im going to bring it to you. But nonetheless, it seems like the judge is readready, willing prepared to put the former president in jail but understanding the gravity of the decision with Secret Service and everything like that. Lets talk about the witness that is now taking the stand. It is jeff mcconney. He worked with former trump ceo alan weisselberg. Let me walk you through what he said. He forwarded an invoice on February 14th Of 2017 saying post to Legal Expenses, put retainer for the months of january and February Of 2017 in the description. So we talk about what this week is really going to be about. It is all about the fraudulent records. That is what this really comes down to. The last two weeks of testimony was really about setting up the timeline, creating this sense of a president of the United States running for election in the leadup to november and how he was desperate to win that election. Some of the testimony we heard from hope hicks. We are now moving to the point that they want to talk about the falsifying of the Business Records and how it all went down. It seems like this next witness that is taking the stand is going to speak to exactly that, the understanding that the former president knew what he was doing when he put in his Business Records that this was for Legal Expenses as he reimbursed Michael Cohen. Were going to hear the testimony from this individual now. Then, of course, we have to look ahead to some of the star witnesses. Stormy daniels, also known as Stephanie Clifford, could be taking the stand later on this week. Whether or not the former president decides to testify himself on behalf of the defense. And then that star witness who seems like hes already on trial. Weve heard about him thousands of times at this point, Michael Cohen. It seems as if what im getting, the idea that im getting from all of this testimony over the last couple of weeks is, the real star witness is the documents. Because the prosecution doesnt want to necessarily rely on testimony from Michael Cohen and or Stephanie Clifford Stormy Daniels, because of their credibility issues the defense has really honed in on. They want to rely on the documents. Despite the fact that some of these witnesses seem a little bit more boring, they are going to be integral to building this timeline, building this story for the prosecution before handing it over to the defense. Yasmin vossoughian, thank you very much. Stay close. Well check back in. Lets bring in right now msnbc legal analyst danny cevallos. Danny, as you would say in the courtroom, the judge is laying the predicate, isnt he . Hes saying, weve been through this ten times. Ive been telling you all along i dont want to put you in jail. Dont test it. This is not working. I dont want to put you in jail as a former president and a possible future president , but i may do that. I know youve got a job to do, but the judge says ive got a job to do as well. It seems like a long windup, but it looks like he may be willing to throw that pitch at some point. Zero surprises from Justice Merchan here. I didnt expect that he would jail trump on this hearing, on this decision. I think hes going to give him at least a couple more chances, because contempt violations are about a continuum. You start with admonitions. Then you say, well, heres your maximum statutory fine of 1,000 in new york. One interesting thing to me is that he verbalized what i think everyone knew, this judge and every judge with the trump case is thinking, which is, i do not want to try and put an expresident in jail, not for an hour, not overnight, not for a week. It will be a logistical, administrative nightmare, to say nothing of the fact that he has to be flanked by Secret Service agents. The issues involved make it so i dont think any judge wants to do that. Judge merchan just confirmed that this morning. Does it not Say Something, though, by the judge bringing this up, i dont want to do this because of the logistical problems, even referring to the Secret Service, but saying i will do it if you keep doing and saying and violating the way you are. I think him bringing up the difficulties only made it more poignant that hes saying, but i will do that if you keep this up . Absolutely. The judge is saying this is absolutely on the table and that jail could happen. In fact, i think that might justify him doing it sooner rather than later. Maybe one more chance. It really depends on the nature of trumps continued violations. Of course, every violation after this moment, arguably since the first decision, would be a violation when trump was on notice. Two weeks ago, three weeks ago you could argue trump wasnt really sure how the judge would interpret the gag order, but at this point its pretty clear to trump what is and what is not going to get the judge willing to find contempt. The judge has denied, at least in some instances, the prosecutions allegations of contempt, but largely found that trumps tweets, when challenged, did fall within the gag order and violated them. This is fair warning to donald trump. Even though gag orders are constitutionally suspect, donald trump knows in this court with this gag order what is to be expected going forward. Danny cevallos, thank you very much. Well be right back with much more morning joe. Much. Well be right back with much more morning joe. L ringing limu, someone needs to customize and save hundreds on Car Insurance with liberty mutual. Lets fly inaudible sounds chief doug. inaudible sounds ooooo ah. elevator doors opening inaudible sounds i thought you were right behind me. Only pay for what you need. Liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty. With the freestyle libre 3 system know your glucose levels. No fingersticks needed. All with the worlds smallest and thinnest sensor. Manage your diabetes with more confidence and lower your a1c. Try it for free at freestylelibre. Us kayak. No way. And lower your a1c. Why would i use kayak to compare hundreds of travel sites at once . Kayak. I like to do things myself. I do my own searching. It isnt efficient. Use kayak. I cant trust Anything Else to do the job right. Aaaaaaaahhhh kayak. Search one and done. Rsv is out there. For those 60 years and older protect against rsv with arexvy. Arexvy is a vaccine used to prevent lower respiratory disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. Arexvy does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients. Those with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. The most common side effects are injection site pain, fatigue, muscle pain, headache, and joint pain. I chose arexvy. Rsv . Make it arexvy. If you spit blood when you brush, it could be the start of a domino effect. New parodontax active gum repair breath freshener. Clinically proven to help reverse the four signs of early gum disease. A new toothpaste from parodontax, the gum experts. Its a beautiful. A n. Day to fly. Rom wooooo faith, Mental Health and identity. Those are the core topics of the new book written by dr. Matt r. Salmon entitled Pride Prejudice Healing Division in the modern family. In the book he details his experience of growing up queer and autistic as the son of a republican congressman in a conservative mormon household in phoenix, arizona. The book combines firsthand accounts with experpt perspectives to tackle the obstacles encountered by lgbtq people within family and religious settings. Dr. Salmon joins us now, the manager of psychiatry at Whitman Walker health in washington, d. C. He specializes in child, adolescent and adult sky try with the focus on lgbtq youth who have faced chronic interpersonal trauma. I would assume a whole bunch of invalidation comes with that. Dr. Salmon, i hope you dont mind, i cant call you dr. Salmon because you grew up as mathew. You call him dr. Salmon. You grew up as mathew. Im so glad youre here. I saw this through the eyes of your father for years, and i can tell you when i spoke to him earlier this week, he was weeping how proud he is of you. But my gosh, what a journey, matthew, and what a story you have to tell. Thank you. I really appreciate being here. You can absolutely call me matthew. I still remember playing with your kids through the halls of the capitol. So talk about what you want people to learn from the book. Well, so i wrote this book because of my experience. Right now across the country politicians are trying to criminalize people because of their identity. This is something that is its a huge challenge that people face in their lives and research has found that discriminatory policies like this are the cause of the numerous risks that lgbtq populations or other marginalized people face so their health or their Mental Health. We see hugely increased rates of Mental Health conditions including suicide, Suicidal Ideation or suicide attempts among lgbtq populations, and as a result of the hate and discrimination that they face across the as a result of systemic prejudice and policies that we continue to uphold or even try to newly put in place across the country. There are states where theyre trying to pass laws you cant say gay. In my opinion, politicians these politicians dont want to say gay because what comes to their mind is gay sex. But really the truth is gay is just an identity. When i think of gay, i think of people that love each other against really terrifying odds, possible violence and other types of oppression that they might face. Theyre doing it anyway. Dr. Salmon, you refer to faith. Explain how faith factored in in terms of you coming forward and even writing these book. I would imagine that, given how you grew up, the religion training and the bias you faced, it took a lot of courage. I would assume your faith had a lot to do with it, to even step forward and take on things that you clearly had been raised in a community or in a way of thinking that was the opposite of what you had come to represent. Absolutely, i appreciate that, reverend. I grew up mormon or lds. In my faith, as you were saying, it was not acceptable. I heard messages that my identity or to be gay was an abomination, that it was considered to live as a gay person was considered to be a sin second to murder. These were the kinds of ideas that i had to deal with in order to accept who i am. But as Research Shows and what happened in my own life is those who are raised in religious settings, contrary so what is believed, that people when they become when they accept themselves as they are and live their lives as queer persons, that theres this idea that they throw away all the values they were raised with, that they become promiscuous or involved in sinful living. But really what the Research Shows and what happened for me is i leaned into the values that i was raised with. I was raised with the values of loving other people unconditionally as jesus christ did. I was raised with the values of respecting other people and allows people the freedom to live their lives. As a result of those values, i gained the strength that i needed to face this adversity. I was raised being taught that adversity was meant to meant for us to learn from and grow. That was all stuff that came from the religion of my upbringing. It was through that that i was able to recognize that, you know, i had to in order for me to truly honor these value, i had to leave my faith and accept myself as i am. Well, i know one of many people really proud of you is sitting next to me. The new book is entitled Pride Prejudice Healing Division in the modern family. Its available now. Dr. Matt r. Salmon, thank you for coming on the show. Congratulations on the book. That does it for us this morning. Ana cabrera picks up the coverage in 90 seconds. In 90 ss . One dose quickly stops migraine in its tracks. Treat it anytime, anywhere without worrying where you are or if its too late. Do not take with strong cyp3a4 inhibitors. Allergic reactions to ubrelvy can happen. Most common side effects were nausea and sleepiness. Migraine pain relief starts with you. Ask about ubrelvy. Learn how abbvie could help you save. And theyre all coming . Learn how abbvie those who are still with us, yes. Grandpa whats this . Your wings. Light em up gentlemen, its a beautiful. Day to fly
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