the less talked about reasons why and debunk the trump nonsense. >> the one and only roxane gay will join me for the velshi banned bookclub. >> in morning, it is saturday, march 40th. we begin this hour with the republican party presumptive presidential nominee once again escalating his violent rhetoric. donald trump's latest dog whistle is posted on his social media platform, treat social, which is now part of a newly merged company that went public this week, making him, on paper, at least, a substantially richer man. in our editorial discussions this morning we were asked not to show the image from this video because of its violent and disturbing nature. so, in lieu of showing it to you, because it is shocking, let me describe it. the video clip shows a pickup truck emblazoned with the slogan trump 2024 on inside. it features an image of president joe biden lying on his side, eyes closed, hands tied behind his back, feet boundary rope. it is plastered on the tailgate of the pickup truck, so if you're driving behind it it would appear as if joe biden were actually restrained on the vehicles flatbed. the video zooms in, and on the image of bound joe biden for several seconds, and the video ends with the driver giving a thumbs-up out the window. this comes less than two weeks after the former president warned of a quote unquote beth if he does not win the election in november. a reference the many tied themselves and pretzels about, making excuses that he was talking about the tariff he would impose on chinese made cars, not about actual violence. trump's latest post indicated that the video was shot on long island on thursday when the president was in town to attend the wake of an nypd officer. biden was in town that day as well as headlining a fundraising event in manhattan with former presidents barack obama and bill clinton. but it was a different event this week. about 1000 miles away from new york, not affiliated with either of the campaigns that could prove to be more effective in moving the needle in the presidential race and warning people about trump's disturbing behavior. on wednesday, the former republican congresswoman liz cheney appeared at drake university in des moines, iowa and shared what analysis about the presidential race. >> we know he tried once not to leave office. and he will have no incentive to guarantee a peaceful transition of power and to leave office if he is elected again. i certainly have policy disagreements with the biden administration. i know the nation can survive bad policy. we can't survive a president who is willing to torch the constitution. >> now, no one can credibly accused liz cheney of being a rino , she comes from a historically conservative family and she was one of the highest ranking members of house republicans leadership. she is antiabortion, pro-gun, anti-tax, hardly liberal stances. and she lied with donald trump's policies and 90% of his presidency. but none that has mattered since january 6. ever since the insurrection she has been cleared about the singular danger that the four times impeached and indicted president bears the country. the point is clear. if he is allowed to return to the white house he will destroy democracy from the inside. it is not about the message she is sharing, it is not the messenger herself. back in the days of the 117th congress, cheney and republicans hope to legitimize the january 6 committee and spite of many efforts from the right to discredit its investigation. because of their participation on the committee, the investigation could not be dismissed as a partisan hit job. there were even people on the right who not only paid attention to the committee public hearings, but cooperated in them, as well. cassidy hutchinson, the former white house aide who became a key witness in the committee investigation directly credited cheney for helping her find the courage to buck the republican establishment and publicly testify about what she witnessed on january 6. quote, liz cheney has a spine of steel and she also cares deeply about this country. i would like to think that without liz cheney i still would've come to this moment, but i know that i came to this moment because of liz cheney. now, republicans like cheney could play a similar role in this year's election. they could reach moderates, independents, and a set of right voters who might otherwise not pay attention to biden and other democrats. with polls showing that this will be a highly competitive contest, these voters may help to decide this year's race. and there are plenty of other republicans whose voices could help move the needle and stop trumpism. a number of former trump administration officials, aides, and staffers have gone on the record to witness what they thought about trump as leader and why disturbed them. and an unusual development, sitting republican congress members are publicly saying that they won't vote, endorse, or support their parties presumptive nominee in the november. that includes mitt romney, who though some say he has not gone far enough, has, to some degree, but his name and reputation on the line to warn about the dangers of trumpism. the same cannot be said about many other republicans, including some in romney's own family, who pledged blind loyalty to the former president. those republicans have discredited themselves in the eyes the american public by continuing to support trump. trump's biggest lies, including trying to rewrite the history of january 6. but some clear eyed republicans understand how trump is leading the country into autocracy, and those republicans are worth listening to. joining me now is rena shaw, political analyst and commentator and senior adviser for the lincoln project. the chief strategist for mitt romney's presidential campaign and the author of the book the conspiracy to in america, five ways my old party is driving our democracy to autocracy. good morning to both of you, thank you for being here with us this morning. let me start with you. what is the call? there are different calls to matter where you are in america. what is the call to republicans for liz cheney? maybe they are truly conservative and they don't agree with a lot of the policies that joe biden and democrats have. but what is the call? joe walsh was saying that the call is that they have to deal with joe biden and deal with policy issues later. >> 100%. one or two people are going to be president of the united states, and it's not me or you. it is donald trump and joe biden. so, if you believe that donald trump is a threat to democracy, which i think is the existential truth of this campaign, you have to vote for joe biden. all this other stuff, i mean, i worked against democrats for 30 years. you go back and look at the stuff you are arguing over, like much of the capital gains tax be? really? it seems quaint now. people like myself that worked in the party, if we can come around and support president biden, i worked for romney, he ran against biden. but that night that romney lost, we were tired, we were exhausted, we were disappointed, but we didn't go to bed. for the country. and that is how this should work. it is a choice. you have to be for biden or for trump, and it should be for biden. >> i don't judge whether someone remains a member of the republican party was a former member of the republican party. but if you are within that structure, you have friends that are on the line somewhere about trump versus biden, it is hard to have this conversations. actually comes at a greater cost for you to have that conversation that it does for you to have that conversation. tell me about that and how you talk to people about it. >> well, it is almost as if you are the worst person to still be affiliated with the republican party and talk about how you don't like trump. that is a tough position to be in, because again, the whole playbook of the right seems to be to demonize the democrats. in essence, the folks that have almost left the camp to go side with the democrats or the people they want to beat up the most, and how you break that noise is taught in facts. nothing more, nothing less. and it is hard to talk about putting country over party when you are talking to people who are not in touch with reality. but what i do is call out, again, what is not happening for us and what we can agree on. what we can agree on is that much of congress is not getting done what we need done. policy solutions wise. how is my life getting better under a republican leadership? it's not. and that is the greatest, i think, heart ache for me. because i served republican members in congress and i can say they are very much, with a straight face, that anyone who wants to understand today's republican party is that not only do you take a multifaceted approach to get out of here, but the very reality is that this is the party that is all about anger towards the other side. and i ask people all the time, is that who we want to be? and i get a resounding no. so then i waited to the next place, which is that you got to do the right thing and you have to reject trump. >> there are lots of ways have influence on an election. i want to call your attention to a story published by the washington post yesterday about gop billionaires who seem to be trying to not trump supporters but are now coming around. because there is no more nikki haley to support anymore. as hopes of a republican opportunity for elite donors who balked at trump's fuming at the capital insurrection and cried what they saw as his chaotic presidency are rediscovering their affinity for the former president, even as he praises and vows to free january 6 defendants, promises mass deportations, and faces 88 felony charges. not included on that list is the fact that trump is continuing to use violent imagery and rhetoric like he did last night. but people are much more worried about capital gains, lower taxes, and less regulation. these billionaires have a lot of power. they can make a difference. i mean, you do work in advertising, the things that trump has done, that takes money. how do you talk to those people and say will we will get your tax breaks, you can have that argument later. this is not the election to give up democracy because he would like a little bit more than your few billion dollars. >> yeah, let's start at the fundamental question. would you rather be a ceo in america today, a billionaire in america today? or in russia, where you are under the thumb of vladimir putin? and that is the model donald trump. he is a heavy-handed state autocrat. he believes that the state can come in and interfere with businesses that he disagrees with politically. enemies of the state, is what he calls these people. from business to the press. that's not conservative. and it seems to be just extraordinarily shortsighted of these business people who have benefited from america. as a way it is, more than any other people probably on earth, and they want to change america fundamentally. it just doesn't make sense. say what you will about joe biden, we might disagree about that. he is in the mainstream of american politics. he doesn't try to demonize his opponents. he does not use the department of justice to go after people. donald trump try to get the department of justice to go after the lincoln project. this is not how our democracy is supposed to work. and the essence of any democracy is that somebody has to be willing to lose. republicans really walk away from that. i think you're breaking the american tradition. these will be the last two candidates who are born in the shadow of world war ii, who have a direct tie to the greatest generation in the oval office. and which values are you going to honor? do you want somebody who represents the worst of this, in trump? or somebody in the american mainstream like joe biden. >> how do you think about the rich, who people are voting in their self-interest, and i get that? people do it every economic level. but in this particular case, yes, your bank account might be larger under donald trump as a president. although i am not convinced of that, because we have a stock market that is breaking records. record low unemployment, inflation under control, economic growth that are strong. but your taxes might actually be lower. how do you ask lena people that this cannot be your priority right now? >> well, most folks in the business community are practical. and in my dealings with them over the years, going back to the time of the tea parties, showing up on capitol hill, how can i put it? the tea party was there for a while, and the worst elements of it characterized conservatism for a while. but those people who hung in the trenches for conservatism, i frequently read to them the receipts of how this guy, donald trump, now a private citizen who i must remind our audience is out on bail doing the most atrocious things that you and i could not do if we were out on bail. this is a guy that is unpredictable. and becoming more unhinged by the day. do you want to take a chance on somebody like this? it might sound counterintuitive, but joe biden gives republicans the best opportunity, the best option, and the best chance no matter how you look at it, any which way you turn it, from shifting the way from trumpism towards a more inclusive and forward thinking conservatism. and that is how i get the lightbulb to go on in the conversations. i say to them do you want to be part of a party right now that is overrun by misinformation and conspiracy theories? is that what you want to stick your label to? and again, that gets them thinking practically and get some understanding that maybe, maybe biden might be a little bit of pain for them in some way economically. however they want to look at. but it is worth the fight to keep the united states away from a one-party rule and amanda they cannot predict what his actions tomorrow will be. >> thanks to both of you. i always appreciate having both of you. stewart stevens is a senior adviser to the lincoln project and author of a conspiracy to in america, my voice my old party is driving our democracy to autocracy. coming up, there's an immigration problem in this country. it is not the problem far right pundits or even some presidential candidates would have you need. america actually needs more immigrants in order to keep this economy going. plus, i will convene today's meeting of the velshi banned book club to discuss hunger by roxane gay. what it is like to live in america in a body that is huge, as gay's own words, as wildly undisciplined. hunger is one of those rare books that forces you to confront notions about yourself, women, and the society we share. do not miss this conversation. lakesha: childhood cancer is it's hard. but st. jude has gotten us through it. st. jude is hope for every child diagnosed with cancer because the research is being shared all over the world. 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(vo) trade-in any iphone in any condition and get a new iphone 15 pro and an ipad and apple watch se all on us. not all caitlin clarks are the same. only on verizon. caitlin clark. city planner. just like not all internet providers are the same. don't settle. you want fast. get fast. you want reliable. get reliable. you want powerful. get powerful. get real deal speed, reliability and power with xfinity. she shoots from here? that's kinda my thing. another massive crane is on his way to baltimore to aid in the salvage operation of the francis scott key bridge. the crane will be charged with the task of moving tons of wreckage from the river. the bridge collapsed on tuesday morning after a cargo ship the lost power crash into one of its support pillars. six construction workers died in the incident, and removing what is left of the bridge is going to be crucial to getting commerce flowing in one of the nation's busiest ports. joining me will now from baltimore is nbc's julia jester. good to see you. what is the latest on the salvage operation what is going on around it? >> reporter: good morning. a flotilla is en route to baltimore to assist in this massive salvage operation. there are seven floating cranes, 10 tugboats, nine barges, eight salvage vessels, and five coast guard boats. overnight, the navy provided a crane, 104. it is going to be lending to baltimore, another set to arrive on monday. so it is really an all hands on deck effort. here is what the governor of maryland had to say about the unprecedented scope and scale of this operation. >> aco freight that is nearly besides of the eiffel tower, and to see that same freight with the key bridge westing on top of it. to see shipping containers that were ripped in half as if they were papier- mache. to know that out there you have to navigate high winds and electric wires. to go out there and to see it up close, you realize just how daunting a task this is. you realize how difficult the work is ahead of us. >> reporter: now, it is really just hard to wrap your head around this. and what is at stake. obviously, finding and recovering the four remaining bodies of the victims who were lost in the collapse, as well as $2 million each day in lost wages at the port of baltimore. i am from baltimore and i have seen firsthand just how tough this community, my community has been hit by this. my cousin works at the port, alongside his dad. it is a common multi-generation operation there. i spoke with another port worker who is more concerned about his two sons at the port making ends meet while it is closed. so state lawmakers are really trying to jump into action, and they just introduced a bill that would provide temporary relief for workers who were unable, who would normally be unable to access unemployment, as well as financial incentives for workers to keep on the payrolls . and for businesses to keep their business in baltimore once the port reopens. versus leaving it in wilmington or norfork, where some of these ships are being diverted. so, really just trying to protect and take care of the victims families and the financial strain that is being put on this community here. >> is a good point. when you about a bridge, you think about a bridge. when you think about in the greater context, this is a big part of baltimore's economy and there are people who are broadly affected by this, who don't know what businesses or wages are going to look like in the coming months. julia jester in baltimore. tomorrow i will continue this conversation about the bridge collapse with u.s. transportation secretary pete buttigieg. we will discuss what additional funding is needed from congress to rebuild the bridge and what can be done for the systemic issues that continue to plague u.s. and for structure. don't miss it. right after the break, america's thinking on immigration has been run for decades, and it is going to cost us. i will! now we need more immigrants in the united states, not fewer. you're watching velshi . nope, definitely not you. save with drivewise and get a rate based on you. you're in good hands with allstate. immigration continues to be a top issue for voters according to polling. trump has reportedly referred to immigrants as subhuman, saying that they, quote, are not people at all, and that they are ruining our cities, taking from her social services, and poisoning the blood of our country. more recently, trump claimed that immigrants were hurting the country, economically, too. the democrats are, in all caps, killing social security and medicare by allowing the invasion of migrants. well, for fact sake, there is so much wrong with all of that. let's start with easily debunking trump's claim. social security is at risk of running out as baby boomers into retirement. the number of beneficiaries as far outpacing those contributing to social security. that is a trend that the agency and largely the world has been tracking and anticipating for decades. the agency currently has to, without action from congress, social security trust funds could be depleted by 2024. that is 10 years from now, and beneficiaries will start to get 23% less per month and they get now. but the root of that problem, and that is for another discussion, has nothing to do with immigrants. in fact, data shows that immigrants are contributing social security taxes more than they are receiving benefits. a disproportionate number of people who immigrate to this country are of working age, relatively few are could children or elderly, and most immigrants, including experts, agreed that the majority of undocumented immigrants to pay taxes. this means that foreign-born residents are disproportionately workers who, in addition to driving our labor market, contribute to programs like social security and medicare. a report from the congressional joint economic committee calculated that in 2019, immigrants paid nearly $492 billion in state, local, and federal taxes. but it is not just taxes and social security. people drive the economy. in the united states, like most major economies on the planet, is facing a rapidly aging population and rapidly slowing birthrates. that, in itself, is a major threat to economic prosperity in nations around the world, but the united states is actually faring relatively well. the international monetary fund released its major biannual report in january. the report looked at large, advanced economies and showed that all have considered -- all the considered nations have faced similar economic hurdles of high inflation and high interest rates since the covid- 19 pandemic. the united states is doing better than any other nation in the report, and the key factor cited over and over again by reports and analysts alike is high levels of immigration. according to that same report from the joint economic committee, immigrants fill critical roles in our workforce. 22% of all workers in the u.s. food supply chain are foreign- born. and immigrants disproportionately work in key roles in our health system, making up 38% of home health aides, 29% of physicians, 23% of pharmacists. the report estimates that 75% of undocumented workers would be considered essential workers in america. for more on this, i am joined by pulitzer prize-winning reporter caitlin dickerson who is a staff writer for the letter, focusing on immigration. caitlin, you and i always want to have more this conversation but we are always jammed up by some stupidity and congress or on the southern border that hijacks the conversation. so, let me just start with the basics here. you always talk about needing to distinguish between immigration policy and border security. they are not the same thing. >> that's right. and you have even heard some republicans in congress start to acknowledge this, because tying the two things together really harms our economy. and the reports you just referred to, they reinforce stories that i have been hearing for years covering this debate. which is that within days of people crossing the southwest border they tend to have jobs. they are working in food service, and agriculture picking crops, they are doing child care, they are cleaning, they are doing landscaping and construction. so that, over the years, has started to say to me that our debate, i think, is skewed. as americans we tend to talk about this group of individuals, immigrants, who want to come here and should we let the men or shut away do them that favor? when, in fact, the lived experiences of immigrants suggests that americans are clamoring for their presence. whether we know it or not. i think that is what is really key, that we don't often see all the ways in which immigrant workers make our lives less expensive, more efficient. growth happens more quickly and it is more affordable because of their presence. that also has indications for safety which we should talk about in the workplace, but just to set the record straight, americans really are clamoring for immigrant labor and it benefits our lives. that is what these reports are telling us. >> so let's talk about safety, let's do it. the immigrant workers and undocumented immigrants are more likely to take on difficult and dangerous jobs in this country, according to the department of labor, the bureau of labor statistics. foreign-born hispanic or latino workers make up about 8% of the workforce but account for 14% of work-related deaths. this is a 2021 number. we, in fact, just saw the death of six immigrant men working as nation of construction workers on the francis scott key bridge in baltimore which collapsed after it was hit by a cargo ship. they are literally doing jobs the people who have the ability not to do because they are in a more advanced position in the economy choose not to do. >> that's right. and i have to say, as soon as i saw that six construction workers were missing, i felt quite certain that they were probably going to be immigrant workers. because, again, just having covered this issue as long as i have, i have heard from business owners all over the country, a lot of them in rural areas, where their elected officials are republicans. and they talk about how year after year they are not able to get americans to do this really difficult labor. but then on the other side i hear immigrant workers tell me they are so grateful for it, because as with the case with these construction workers, they were not only supporting families in the united states with their wages, but some of them were sending significant funds back home to their home countries and supporting many other people in their extended families. and so, this is a reality that we have to face. i mean, it is understanding on capitol hill, there is the shadow debate that goes on. you will hear democrats and republicans acknowledge the need for immigrant workers, but there is a fear at the same time of losing those voters who fear open borders, for whom this idea of cracking down on immigrants really resonates. that group has actually grown, as donald trump has grown in popularity, because his messaging has been so effective, even though it flies in the face of this research and this unequivocal analysis we are talking about here. so all that does is make congress kick the can down the road even further. and it keeps these jobs done by a shadow workforce, and immigrant workforce that don't have as many worker protections. that is how you see injuries and deaths like the ones we are talking about now. >> caitlin, your messaging on this is pretty strong as well, and we appreciate that. thank you very much. caitlin dickerson is a pulitzer prize-winning reporter and writer for the atlantic. ahead, velshi's banned book club proves there is power in honesty. i'm talking about roxane gay's defining book, hunger, a memoir of my body. do not miss the conversation. okay y'all we got ten orders coming in... big orders! starting a 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barbecue is arguably the face of haiti's gang wars. he controls a large swaths of territory and heads the powerful g9 group, in alliance with some of the biggest gangs. in a rare interview with sky news's stewart ramsey, barbecue says he is willing to consider a cease-fire, but seems to suggest the newly flown transitional presidential counsel must include gang leaders. in northern haiti that divide is evident. >> what we keep hearing from people is the one of the big concerns in areas outside port- au-prince is less the violence, and less so worry about the gangs, and or the concern is about how they do things like this. wash their clothes. how they get food. how they get clean water. >> it's hard to get everything. >> reporter: earlier this week the biden administration approved a proposal to send haiti's police $10 million of weapons, ammunition, bulletproof vests, and helmets, all from a department of homeland security stockpile. but for many, it has not come soon enough. ellison barber, nbc news. still ahead, i am thrilled to be joined by one of the most influential thought leaders of our time. roxane gay . there is no crucial of work written by roxane gay , but today where opening her memoir, hunger, a memoir of our body. this book demands empathy and self reflection in a way that very few works do. there all right, today's velshi banned book club features hunger, and memoir of my body by roxane gay. uncompromising and intimate look at what it is like to live in america in a bigger, blackbody. a body that is viewed as unacceptable, un-valuable, unattractive,", wildly undisciplined. when you are overweight, your body becomes a matter of public record in many respects. your body is constantly on display. people protect assumer narratives on your body and are not at all interested in the truth of your body, whatever that truth might be. fat, much like skin color, is something you cannot hide, no matter how dark the clothing you wear, or how diligently you avoid horizontal stripes. written in gay's trademark unadorned writing style and interspersed with antidotes from her childhood, teen, and adult years, hunger is a story about gay's ever-changing relationship with her body. hunger grapples with more than that, though. it is a look at societal demands of appearance, family dynamics, self acceptance, and they fraught landscape of women's pleasure and consumption. from the very first page, gay makes it clear exactly what hunger is and is not. quote writing this book is a confession. these are the ugliest, weakest, barest parts of me. this is my truth. this is a memoir of my body, because more often than not stories of bodies like mine are ignored or dismissed. or derided. people see bodies like mine and make their assumptions. they think they know the why of my body. they do not. this is not a story of triumph. this is a story that demands to be told and deserves to be heard. gay's devastating gang rape at the age of 12 is essential to her relationship with her body. in this way, hunger offers deep insight into the trauma. gay's detail of rape is detailed, included in every chapter of her memoir, a metaphor in and of itself. it is insightful rather than gratuitous. the cost of reliving and recounting this trauma in uncomfortable detail, including the smell of the sweat. the way their clothes stayed on, and the reading faces. it is the reality of trauma. the emotional imprint of rape and assault never ever goes away. every book we cover on the velshi banned book club is important in different ways, otherwise they wouldn't be pulled from library shelves and curricula just like hunger has been in the indian county river school in florida. but i have not read a book that so radically and persuasively demands empathy, change, and self reflection. although this is holy gay's story, the search for self-love and community acceptance is, in so many ways, universal. i could go on, but today, roxane gay gets the last word. quote living in my body has expanded my empathy for other people in the truths of their bodies. certainly it has shown me the importance of inclusivity and acceptance. not merely tolerance for diverse body types. it has shown me that being a woman of size, the phrase i used to discreetly inform others of my body in a way that offers a semblance of dignity is as much a part of my identity and has been for at least 20 years as any other parts of my identity. the body is resilient. it can endure all kinds of things. right after the break i will be joined by the award-winning and renowned roxane gay, author of today's banned book feature, hunger, and memoir of my body. don't go anywhere. nexium 24hr prevents heartburn acid before it begins. get all-day and all-night heartburn acid prevention with just one pill a day. choose acid prevention. choose nexium. ma, ma, ma— ( clears throat ) for fast sore throat relief, try vicks vapocool drops. with two times more menthol per drop, and powerful vicks vapors to vaporize sore throat pain. vicks vapocool drops. vaporize sore throat pain. when i was your age, we never had anything like this. vicks vapocool drops. what? wifi? wifi that works all over the house, even the basement. the basement. so i can finally throw that party... and invite shannon barnes. dream do come true. xfinity gives you reliable wifi with wall-to-wall coverage on all your devices, even when everyone is online. maybe we'll even get married one day. i wonder what i will be doing? probably still living here with mom and dad. fast reliable speeds right where you need them. that's wall-to-wall wifi on the xfinity 10g network. today's meeting of the velshi banned book club is officially underway. it is an honor to be joined by roxane gay, author of hunger, and memoir of my body. the last you and i were together, we were together on stage in connecticut. i don't know if you could tell that i was a little intimidated, because you are a big deal. and it is a big deal to have you on the show. so thank you, so much. i want to get right into the book. you touched upon the importance of language used to describe assault and rape . quote, over the years i have learned the importance of surviving and claiming the label of survivor. but i don't mind the label of victim. later in the book you write it is easier to use detached language like assault, violation, or incident than it is to come out and say that when i was 12 years old i was raped by a boy i thought i love in a group of his friends. tell me about this. >> well, there are all kinds of conversations we have about the kinds of language we should use only talk about assault . and a lot of times people find it empowering and liberating to remove themselves from victimhood. and i would never try and deny someone using the language that best fits their circumstances. and i do like the narrative of survival, because i am still here. but at the same time, i do think it is important to acknowledge victimhood, to say that you are advantage of, that you were victimized. i don't mind that language, at all. and i use victim and survivor interchangeably. though, of course, the older i get the more i just used survivor. and frankly, it doesn't come up as much now as it once did. so it is easier for me to be able to use those words interchangeably. >> well, some of the books we feature here are novels, pieces of literature. and we have the ability to write in any way you wish to write. why was it important to write this as a memoir? >> well, i had put off writing about it most of my adult life. i actually never planned on writing a memoir. as i was thinking about the next book i wanted to write was that the last thing i want to write about is fatness. and that is what i knew oh, man, i probably have to write about fatness. because anything, anytime i am intimidated by something intellectually, i know it is probably going to be intellectually satisfying and i am probably going to get good work out of it. so i started to think about how do i want to write about my body, and assault? and the connection between the two. it is not there for everyone, but it is certainly there for me. >> womanhood and what it looks like is a consistent theme throughout hunger. you write, quote, this is what most girls are taught. we should be slender and small. we should not take up space. we should be seen and not heard. and if we are seen, we should be pleasing to men, excitable to society. and most women know this, that we are expected to disappear, but is something that needs to be said loudly over and over again so that we can resist surrendering to what is expected of us. where are we in that process of resisting, surrendering, of acknowledging and defeating beauty? >> well, for every step forward someone is always going to pull as a few steps back. i think it is still a work in progress. i think we are actually saying, i don't know if backlash is the word, but we are seeing a lot of lost ground, especially with the rise of tradwives and barbie feminism, all sorts of things. but i believe we are continuing to fight the good fight, create estates where women can be however they choose to be. whether it is conventionally attractive or simply living in their bodies as honestly as possible. i try not to judge the choices the women make, and i think that is a place we all need to get to, where we just allow women to live as openly and freely as possible. >> you edited an anthology of personal essays called not that bad, which addressed a wide range of experience including rape, assault, harassment. i wanted to read 20. quote, it was comforting to tell myself that what i went through wasn't that bad, allowing myself to believe that being gang raped was not that bad. allow me to break my trauma into something more manageable, something i could carry with me instead of allowing the magnitude of it to destroy me. but in the long run, diminishing my experience hurt me far more than it helped. this is a big issue. because we are in a society where we convince ourselves that it is not that bad. move on, it's fine, you will get over it. every day that you carry on, you survive more. tell me more about how your thinking on this has evolved. >> certainly. we tend to minimize our traumas for one reason or another. i think one, to prove that we are beyond them. but also, because we are always comparing ourselves to others. when i look at what i have been through, it is not that bad compared to, say, someone in the congo who is dealing with sexual violence. so it becomes this thing we do to minimize our own experiences, because we know, i think, most of us, that there are a range of challenges that people around the world face. and sometimes you look at your own experiences and think well, that certainly pales in comparison. but who does it really serve to minimize our experiences in that way? it is not going to help the person you are comparing yourself to in any way, shape, or form. instead it just harms us. so i have done a lot of work over the years to stop minimizing not only my own experiences, but the experiences of others. because yes, indeed, it was actually that bad. and it may not have been as bad as what someone else winter, but it does not take away what happened to you. >> you often, to take a little bit of a turn, you often talk about your identity as a haitian-american. a few weeks ago we featured america street by amy savoy. we discussed american perceptions of haiti and haitian culture in the midst of a lot of news coverage of that country. let me play you a bit about what she told me. >> when i was growing up, that's all you heard. haiti is the poorest country in the western hemisphere. but now we can say port-au- prince is not all of haiti. a neighborhood in port-au- prince is not all of port-au- prince. and we want to push back against that narrative that hades culture, hades spirituality is not the reason why it is in the situation that it is now. >> i thought that was astute. and is a problem we cover these crises, because you go to the center of where things are and you assume the whole place is like that. and it does diminish culture, and it does diminish history. what are your thoughts? >> i actually agree with ev, who is an incredible writer and thinker. haiti has always been maligned in the western media, and has always been framed as the poorest nation in the western hemisphere. and there are all kinds of issues in haiti, but it is also a beautiful country, with beautiful people, beautiful art, music, literature. and i wish that we could talk about those things alongside the very real struggles the country is facing, but i also wish that we could have better conversations about where the culpability belongs for a lot of haiti's problems. and a lot of it belongs in sort of external interference in haitian governing. and until we deal with those external interferences, haiti is going to continue to be mired in conflict. and you have that package just before this about the gang leader who wants the gangs to have a seat at the table as this convening counsel starts to figure out the way forward for haiti. and, you know, we have to recognize that haitians are full of self determinism and have always been that way. if we don't continue to allow our people that self determinism now, there is actually no change that is going to be successful. >> great to see you. thank you very much for being with us. i hope we can do this again and not wait so long between our interactions. roxane gay is an award-winning author of numerous books and essays, including today's banned book feature, hunger, a memoir of our body. that does it for me, stay right where you are. the fan show begins right now. the week that was. started the francis scott key bridge engine into the water overnight after was hit by a s

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