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♪♪ good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, december 8th. glad it's friday, but we do have a lot to get to this morning, willie. president biden is putting more pressure on israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu to allow additional aid into gaza. we'll have more details on the first conversation between the two leaders in 11 days. a lot of questions. meanwhile, the president's son is facing several new tax charges. we'll break down the allegations against hunter biden. plus, a recap of donald trump's day in court for his civil tax fraud trial. he was there as the former president is now expected to be the last person to take the stand. that should happen next week. also ahead, a rare ruling in a post roe world. a judge in texas granted an emergency request for an abortion, but the state's attorney general is threatening to prosecute any doctor who treats the woman. we'll talk about that. with us, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at politico, jonathan lemire. and msnbc contributor mike barnicle is up early for us. willie? >> let's begin, mika, in israel, as the country continues its offensive into gaza, pushing further into the southern part of the territory on a mission to destroy hamas. yesterday, idf officials announced they struck dozens of terrorist targets in the area, including a tunnel shaft. now, the united states is urging israel to do more to protect civilians and to allow aid into gaza. nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel reports. >> reporter: two months after hamas killed more than 1,200 people in israel, the israeli military is escalating its campaign to overthrow the group in gaza. but for the 2.3 million palestinians in gaza who can't leave, the war isn't the only danger. hunger is spreading. massive crowds gathered outside of food distribution centers. the u.n. is warning of a humanitarian catastrophe. just across the border from gaza, we visited the kibbutz near oz, where on october 7th, hamas fighters kidnapped and killed everyone they could find. driven by her neighbor, arina returned. the 73-year-old was held hostage by hamas in gaza and freered last week. she was overwhelmed by the damage. her door is still smashed in. hamas dragged her away from here. she came back to collect a prayer book for hanukkah. her neighbor, rita, tells her hamas is still firing rockets and she should go to the safe room if there's incoming. arina badly wanted to see if her cat was still alive. she thought about the cat while a hostage, and when she found him, she smiled. what's it like for you to come back here after all that you've been through? "here, i feel better, but not very well. i want the war to stop," she says. she did not want to talk about what happened to her while she was a captive. and her 28-year-old grandson is still being held in gaza. "hanukkah is a holiday of light. people close to us in gaza must return home," she says. hamas went house to house here for eight agonizing hours before any rescue came. residents locked themselves in their safe rooms, so hamas set houses on fire to spoke them out. rita says many here are furious at hamas and the government. how did it take eight hours to have a response? >> why it took eight hours? because they [ bleep ] didn't care! 6:30 they came in here. >> reporter: rita took me to the local post office where the boxes have been marked with stickers. this is one of the most disturbing images that i've seen in a long time. this post office. >> yeah. >> reporter: on the boxes, red, killed. blue, returned. black, dead. >> yes. >> reporter: to be honest, there's not a lot of blue. next door is the cafeteria where the tables are set for those who can't come, the dead and missing. one of every four people who lived on this kibbutz was murdered or taken hostage. >> now, it's the first holiday of the kibbutz that is not happening. and we need to bring them back now. >> richard engel joins us now live from jerusalem. richard, just incredible reporting there. we heard in your piece the frustration with the israeli military response, the time that it took on october 7th to reach those kibbutzes. we were talking about that yesterday on this show. what do officials say about the long span of time before they could get there? >> reporter: they are saying absolutely nothing. they are postponing that question until after the war is over. many israelis initially were accepting that, and they said, fine, this is a time of national crisis, national emergency. the investigations will be held later. as time passes, they are demanding answers. how could it possibly have taken, in just that kibbutz, eight hours? in other places, it was longer. we spoke to people hiding by the side of the road for 10, 12, 14 hours. in some cases, 24 hours. this is a country with an active military, active police force, has lots of planes, lots of helicopters. how could it possibly -- and it's a small country. how could they have missed what looked like an army crossing the border? the hamas militants crossed into israel, most of them in a militarized uniform, in green, many of them in vehicles, on motorcycles. they then were setting fires, rampaging. the israelis throughout were calling each other, communicating. i've spoken to families of survivors who managed themselves to send friends and relatives to go rescue people before there was any kind of military or police response. so there was not just an intelligence failure to not anticipate this attack, but then a complete failure in responding to it. the official line is, "yes, there was a failure. we will deal with that at a later time. it'll be a full and thorough investigation." >> that's all we've heard, too, is this is not the time or place to talk about that. that day will come. for now, we have to root out hamas. obviously, some serious questions posed by the people who suffered the most, like the woman you spoke to there. by the way, in our next hour, we'll speak to a spokeswoman for prime minister netanyahu and put that question to her, as well. richard, israel also saying it has detained hundreds of people suspected of terrorism. what more can you tell us about that? >> reporter: so there is a considerable amount of confusion about these images that many people are finding disturbing. they show -- they were broadcast on israeli television extensively yesterday, and they show at least 100 palestinians on the ground, stripped down to their underwear, holding their head in their hands, guarded by israeli troops. the israeli military spokesman said they were not officially released by the military. didn't deny them, but he said he didn't know if or when the israeli soldiers may have taken them, but he said the main mission is to confront hamas and go after hamas suspects wherever they are. the israeli media said that they were men who were arrested in gaza and that some included hamas suspects who turned themselves in. palestinians are viewing this very differently. they say this was an attempt by israeli forces to hmiliate palestinians and break the will of the people in gaza. >> chief foreign correspondent richard engel reporting again for us from israel. thanks so much. jonathan lemire, we know that yesterday president biden spoke to prime minister netanyahu. obviously, public support for the mission to destroy hamas, but again emphasizing, perhaps more strongly this time, the need to avoid civilian casualties and allow for routes for aid to get in. >> this is probably the sharpest criticism the white house delivered yet as to what the israeli military is doing in gaza. the president expressed that in his phone call with the prime minister. also, we heard from secretary of state blinken who held a news conference yesterday and was very frank. he said, "when i visited the region last and talked about the limit to -- the effort to limit civilian casualties, what i said then and what is actually happening, a gap remains in between." meaning, israel has very much not done what it promised to do, to not take out the civilians. these are disturbing images yesterday. we don't know much about them yet with these palestinians being held, but we do know the civilian casualty total continues to rise. it remains very high. to this point, mike, i mean, the white house is still very clear, and that's not going to change. they're supporting israel, but there seems to be a growing rift with how this war is being conducted. we know privately, the president has some real misgivings about the israeli prime minister. >> i think he privately has some real misgivings about bibi netanyahu, yes, indeed. it's a highly controversial thing that's going on in israel right now. you have the most congested urban situation in the world in gaza, and you have ongoing combat each and every hour of each and every day. you have a nation, israel, small nation, as richard just pointed out in the report, consumed by the fate of the hostages and the plight of answering the question of why israeli -- what happened to the israeli army? those two things you keep hearing, you've heard it, are consuming the state of israel, and there's no answers yet. bibi netanyahu is sitting on a very perilous position for himself. willie, this is a tough situation all around. >> mika, secretary of state blinken also held a joint news conference with david cameron, the foreign minister of the uk yesterday. he was very explicit in saying there is a gap right now in what israel says it is doing to protect civilians and what's actually happening on the ground. he said that, of course, after pledging america's support for israel, but the criticism has become more public. >> there's a gap in trust, and this is a real challenge for the administration and for president joe biden, when he's dealing with a counterpart that you're not necessarily sure you're getting the full story. think of it this way, this response time question is not just a little follow-up we'll leave for later. this is a disturbing reality. eight hours? israel the size of, what, massachusetts maybe? benjamin netanyahu was very quick to declare war. he could assess the situation and realize that israel was at war, but eight hours to get to women who were being raped, by the way, for a year, for months, disregarding a female analyst saying this is coming. there is a 40-page document spells it out. and i want to spell this out even more specifically for you. think about it. this is a small country. these gate crossings are militarized. you're going to tell me they don't have cameras? you're going to tell me they don't have panic buttons? you're going to tell me they have absolutely no communication with the outside world, that there was no warning of this, there was no sign of this, there was no way to know that we immediately need to respond and get there within minutes? this is a problematic question. it's fair to ask. it should be asked now. quite frankly, how does the administration go forward without knowing the answer? we're suffering the repercussions here in the united states. we're learning a lot about attitudes and the response to this complex situation, but that question needs to be answered. meanwhile, a 28-year-old man is facing federal charges for firing a gun outside a synagogue in upstate new york hours before the start of hanukkah yesterday afternoon. the man allegedly fired two shots from a shotgun outside the temple in albany. roughly two dozen children were at a preschool inside the building at the time. no one was hurt. police say the man was caught in the temple's parking lot. as he was being taken into custody, the man said, "free palestine," according to police. the episode is being investigated as a hate crime with the fbi. in response to the incident, new york governor kathy hochul directed the state police and the new york national guard to be on high alert as the holiday gets under way. this morning, we continue our week long look at the new special issue of "the atlantic," which delves into the potential dangers of a second term for donald trump. what it would pose for the country and the world. join us now is one of the contributors to the issue, staff writer at "the atlantic," mark leibovich. your piece is entitled, "this is who we are." in it, you write in part, quote, in the last spring of e obama administration, michelle obama was delivering her final commencement address as first lady, at city college of new york. obama couldn't help but lob some barely cloaked denunciations of trump's wrecking ball. presidential campaign, the one that would soon be ratified with the republican nomination. "that is not who we are," the first lady assured the gruates. "that is not what this country stands for, no." the promise did not age well. not that november, and not since. the axiom prompts a estion, who is "we" anyway? because it sure seems a lot of this "we" keeps voting for trump. you can dismiss trump voters all you want, but give them this, they're every bit as american as any idolized vision of the ple. if trump wins in 2024, his tractors will have to reckon once again with the voters who got us here, to reconci what it means to share a country with so many citizens who keep watching trump spiral deeper into his moral void and still conclude, yes, that's our guy. mark, i can't agree with you more. i think that especially applies to the evangelical community and people who call themselves christians, who spend a lot of time judging other people but can't seem to reconcile these two realities. i would also add that i do think a lot of people are somewhat victims of sort of a cult, really. >> there's no doubt. i mean, the powers of persuasion in the media and given the sound machines that the right and the trump world has at their disposal, online, whether it was fox or any other outlets, they have a powerful messaging system. it starts with the guy who basically has been in our faces for eight years or seven years, you know, and it could be more. i mean, i think what i wanted to look at here, and, you know, the issue of "the atlantic" looks very, you know, issue by issue, granularly, what this administration, if it happens again, could look like. what i wanted to do was step back and evaluate what it means to live in this country where this keeps happening, where this is a critical electoral mass. it might not be a popular mass but it is an electoral college majority, where a lot of people think this is fine. obviously -- >> right. >> -- we have a lot of information about donald trump. his character is not a mystery at this point. the fact is, a lot of people like it, and that's the country we live in right now. >> mark, good morning. as usual, you're on to, i think, one of the central questions of our time, which is, if you could say in 2016, people took a flyer on donald trump, maybe didn't like hillary clinton, thought he was going to be the ceo they'd seen on tv and shake things up and change the way washington gets done, do a bunch of deals with democrats and make everything work. now, as you write in the piece, there is a large body of evidence of how he conducts himself as president, how he conducts himself outside of the presidency, attempting to overturn the government. he got 74 million votes in 2020. it's not just donald trump, as you write, it's the people like marjorie taylor greene, and the list goes on and on. they're getting a lot of support, and a lot of people see what they do. they see how they conduct themselves and behave in public, and they say, "yeah, i want more of that." it's a question i don't think many reckoned with yet. it's not some anomaly. maybe it is who we are. >> it is definitely not an anomaly. i mean, again, it's probably not a majority electorally, but, you know, the powers of denial among people who don't support donald trump are extremely strong. i think there were, like you said, i mean, there were people who sort of assumed the end of 2016 that, okay, this is a one-off, this is a statement. donald trump was teaching a lesson to the political establishment, to the media, to people who have been sort of entrenched in this stuff for a long time, that we want something new, we want to break this. you know, then it was broken, and donald trump didn't go out in a blaze of glory. i mean, he did not, you know, end his presidency, even his post-presidency, by doing things that would enhance his popularity. yet, still to this day, he is probably a jump ball possibility of being elected again. again, people know exactly who he is. i mean, again, it's not like he's being -- you know, the con -- he is very, fundamentally a con man in many ways, but he's up front. i started with the, it's not who we are question that we've been scolded with or, you know, comforted with for a long time now. >> mark, one of the most interesting aspects of the whole trump phenomenon is, and you just pointed it out, he's not hiding. he's not hiding anything at all. and you live in a town, and we all live in certain areas and know certain people, a lot of people who come up to you and, eventually, the conversation might get around to trump. the question they pose to you is, you know, who are these people who vote for him? when you tell them the truth of it, when you say, "they're your neighbors. they're people you work alongside with," and i've come to the conclusion the past several years that maybe we focus in the media too much on trump and not enough on the legitimate human beings, and there are many people who vote for trump who are absolutely otherwise normal. they lead normal lives and have normal families. what's their beef? who are they? we don't focus enough on them, and there's a lot of them. >> there are. yes, they're our neighbors figuratively in some ways, but, you know, when you live in sort of blue bubbles or red bubbles, i mean, the fact is, a lot of your neighbors are going to vote exactly like you, sort of physically. there are very few swing districts, swing neighborhoods left in this country for a lot of reasons. that extends to the online world. that extends to the media sort of silos that we choose for ourselves. so the fact is, it's entirely possible, you know, in a lot of, say, big cities on the coasts, or if you're in a rural area, to sort of go long stretches of time without ever dealing with someone on the other side. i think one of the sort of realities of the trump years is that it used to be a lot more possible for kind of garden variety republicans and garden variety democrats, in so much as there was such a thing, to interact. it's like, okay, we're on both sides. they're unsure. or, you know, we have different views, but we can get along, they're shirts and skins. at this point, a lot of trump supporters and non-trump supporters make black and white value judgments on the other side and just don't want to teal with each other. so not only do you not have to deal with people so much on the other side of a day-to-day basis, but you recoil at the idea of it. if you look at surveys about how people view, you know, finding a spouse or something, it's almost quite often, i mean, the strongest indicator is -- or the strongest prejudice people have is, i'm not going to sanction anyone on the other side, you know, going off with my kids. i think that's a new reality we're in in the trump world. >> the piece is online now for the new special issue of "the atlantic." staff writer mark leibovich, as always, thank you so much for coming on the show this morning. >> thank you, mika. ahead on "morning joe," hunter biden is indicted by a california grand jury. we'll go over the new legal trouble faced by the president's son. plus, the latest out of donald trump's civil fraud trial after the former president voluntarily spent his day in court while complaining about being forced off the campaign trail when he didn't have to be there. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. generalized myasthenia gravis made my life a lot harder. but the picture started changing when i started on vyvgart. vyvgart is for adults with generalized myasthenia gravis who are anti-achr antibody positive . in a clinical trial, vyvgart significantly improved most participants' ability to do daily activities when added to their current gmg treatment. most participants taking vyvgart also had less muscle weakness. and your vyvgart treatment schedule is designed just for you. in a clinical study, the most common side effects included urinary and respiratory tract infections, and headache. vyvgart may increase the risk of infection. tell your doctor if you have a history of 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policies that help the rich get richer and left so many people behind... i don't want to go back. i can't go back. i'm joe biden and i approve this message. welcome back. 26 past the hour. a beautiful shot of the christmas tree at rockefeller center. and staying in new york city, former president trump was in the courtroom yesterday as his defense team presented in the new york $250 million civil fraud trial. his lawyers interviewed an accounting expert who said the case against the trump organization was baseless. the new york attorney general accuses trump's namesake company of filing false financial statements in order to receive favorable bank deals. judge arthur engoron, ruling over the case, already determined the company is committing fraud and dissolved some of the businesses as a result. a panel of judges paused that decision. that means the stay the attorney general's office previously agreed on would remain in place until the full court hears and rules on trump's appeal. that likely won't come until next year, after the fraud trial is over. trump is scheduled to testify for his defense on monday. willie. >> joining us now, former litigator, legal analyst lisa rubin. lisa was in the courtroom yesterday. great to see you. we're going to hear from the defendant himself on monday with some testimony, but tell us about what you saw yesterday. the trump team bringing in an expert, a tax attorney, who said, effectively, as defense teams will find someone to say for them from time to time, what he did wasn't so bad, actually. >> an accounting professor at the stern school of business came in yesterday and gave all the testimony that trump could have dreamed of. he essentially said there was nothing wrong with the financial statements from 2011 to 2021. he found no indicia of fraud, no gap violations. those are the accounting standards that govern how the financial statements have to be presented. he also said that they contained a warning to anybody reading them to do your own diligence, and he compared it to the surgeon general's warning on a box of cigarettes. if i were the trump organization, for example, i might not want to be compared to a health hazard, but they seemed to welcome that comparison. then he said that deutsche bank, in fact, did do its due diligence, and he went through their credit reports and showed where they had data that wouldn't have been evident to them through the financial statements alone, and drew from that the fact that deutsche bank must have asked for and got more information from the trump organization that allowed them to come to the conclusion that he was credit worthy. >> there's so much legal trouble surrounding donald trump, that people tend to lose track of it all. you're the eyes in the courtroom. as he takes the stand monday, what does the case look like? how is it going for him right now? >> i don't think it is going particularly well. i'll resist your question to one extent, i'm not positive donald trump is going to testify. i can tell you, looking at you here, i know donald trump wants to testify. his lawyers desperately wanted to lift the gag order that's still in place. they weren't able to do so. they asked judge engoron to pause the trial. he would not do so. they told me to my face the day before they weren't going to ask him that because they knew how it was going to go. that signals to me they are afraid of having their client on the stand and inches away from that principle law clerk he can't talk about when he testifies. i'll tell you also, he didn't answer any questions yesterday in the hallway. he speechified. >> he never does. >> he usually takes a bit here or there. our folks in the hallway, who follow him on the campaign trail, said he was unusually disciplined in the sense that while he attacked and gave his usual trumpian talking points, he would not engage with any of the press core assembled in the hallway. i'll believe he'll take the stand when he does. >> another trump matter, the appeal his team filed in washington on the election interference case. clearly an effort to stall. >> yup. >> it's an appeal that could find its way to the supreme court, but in the interim, they're asking, hey, all the deadlines on this case should freeze until we have a resolution there. give us your assessment of that tactic, and do you think it could be successful? >> it is an interesting application and more interesting today than it was last week. that's because a d.c. circuit panel last week decided in a different january 6th constellation of cases, three civil cases brought by people injured on january 6th, that essentially, those immunity issues have to be resolved before discovery in the case. now, this is a criminal case, not a civil case. donald trump got all the discovery that the department of justice had, for the most part, on day one of that trial. sorry, day one of that case after indictment. he's been taking advantage of it for several months now. i'm not sure that that carries water. indeed, the department of justice or the special counsel's office may say, too little, too late. you could have asked to stay this case long time ago. you did, judge chutkan said no and you didn't appeal then. we're going forward. meanwhile, hunter biden is facing a new legal challenge after he was indicted on nine tax-related charges. the 56-page indictment was fed by special counsel david weiss in federal court in los angeles and includes three felony counts. it alleges the president's son failed to pay taxes, failed to file, evaded an assessment, and filed a fraudulent form, stating, quote, rather than pay his taxes, the defendant spent millions of dollars on an extravagant lifetime. hunter biden's attorney responded with a statement, quote, based on the facts and the law, if hunter's last name was anything other than biden, the charges in delaware, and now california, would not have been brought. he added that hunter biden paid his taxes in full more than two years ago. if convicted, hunter biden could face a maximum of 17 years in prison. there's a lot of detail in this filing, lisa, about what hunter biden did spend the money on. a lavish lifestyle indeed, often funded by other people. first, let's establish, the taxes were repaid, correct? >> they were. >> maybe not by him specifically, but they were repaid. >> not necessarily in a timely manner either, it took several years for them to be paid. as far as i understand, all hunter's tax liability has been cleared. >> this comes five months after that deal fell apart. >> right. >> hunter biden thought he was going to cut a deal and avoid prosecution. that deal falls apart, and now here we are. how serious are these charges? how much trouble is he in? >> they're very serious. in the district of delaware, he's also facing the three charges on the gun. 12 counts against him. calculations was he could serve a maximum of 17 years in prison on these charges alone. these are extremely serious charges. i should add, at the time he cut the plea deal, tom winter and i sat at this table and said to the person anchoring, "hey, other people would never have even been prosecuted for thi so as to reach a plea deal." so post plea deal, he's facing more serious charges, it shows me maybe there is a two-tiered system of justice, it just doesn't go the way donald trump thinks it does. >> let's go back to the delaware case and the negotiation. it collapsed at the very last moment. >> yeah. >> okay. if it's me in the delaware court, is the deal made in delaware? >> that's an interesting question. now, you've got two places to have to resolve it. i'm very weary of saying that it will get resolved in delaware without a resolution at the same time in california if i'm hunter biden's lawyers and i really do want to cut a deal. i'll try for a global resolution that involves some approval at the department of justice overall. >> on the political side of this, and i won't ask about the politics because you give us your legal insights, but republicans in the house want to make this about joe biden. my question legally to you is, is there anything in this filing, anything in these charges that show a connection between hunter biden and president joe biden? >> i'm not familiar with the nitty-gritty of this filing yesterday, particularly since i spent most of the day yesterday -- >> you were busy yesterday. >> i was in civil court. listening to accounting testimony is exhausting. as far as i understand it, no. the question also is, could the president be asked to testify here? i don't think he could be compelled to testify in this trial. even if there issal dpa allegat against him, query whether they sit out there in the court of public opinion rather than get resolved through this process. >> there will be a conflation by republicans. see, hunter biden committed crimes. joe biden, the biden crime family, et cetera, et cetera. again, there has not been -- that link has not been drawn yet. >> no, it hasn't. there's yet to be any evidence that president biden had anything to do with the criminal charges his son now faces. it's also not a coincidence. what is happening next week? republicans are moving forward with the impeachment inquiry. they'll get the formal vote. we heard from speaker johnson yesterday that he believes he has enough votes to bring it forward. it doesn't mean impeachment but it could head that way. this is establishing a false equivalency between what people by the last name of trump have done and what people with the last name of biden have done. hunter biden himself is not running for office. hunter biden has never held a government position. there's yet to be evidence that president joe biden has done wrongdoing. trump is running for office and has 91 counts and four indictments facing him. this is their play here. they're trying to muddy the waters. it is very clear that trump is trying to allege misdoings by hunter biden and not to be the only president impeached running for president next year. >> full stop for all of us, to take a pause and think about this for just a second. that the united states house of representatives is on the verge of perhaps shutting down the government, has not passed an appropriation bill, a massive appropriation bill that would provide assistance for ukraine and israel and taiwan, all three nations in peril, and, yet, they are going to go forward with filing an impeachment order on the president of the united states with no evidence whatsoever. that's where we are. >> mika, let's say again, we've been saying for how long now, year, more than a year, if hunter biden committed a crime, he ought to be prosecuted. that's what's happening here. >> exactly. >> if there is a connection to joe biden, let's see it. we have not seen it. to john's point, the equivalence they're drawing between the son of the president not paying his taxes and the former president of the united states working to overturn the presidential election, bringing classified documents to his beach club and storing them there, 91 felony counts, they really want us to think those two things are the same. >> yeah, they do. they keep trying. even when there is absolutely no -- there is no parallel at all. it's the president's son versus many crimes by a former president alleged, and some he completely admits to out in the open. lisa, i have one more story. in texas, a judge granted a rare emergency order to a woman requesting an abortion that her doctor says is medically necessary. let's first get the details from nbc news senior legal correspondent laura jarrett. >> reporter: kate cox was running out of time, after learning at 20 weeks that the baby she's expecting has a fetal abnormality. the 31-year-old mom of two filed a lawsuit in texas seeking an emergency abortion. a judge agreed. >> i never thought i would ever need or want an abortion. >> reporter: if cox carried the pregnancy to term, doctors warned she would be at risk for serious complications that could affect her ability to have more children. >> there's no outcome here that i take home my healthy baby girl. >> reporter: texas bans most abortions as soon as the baby has a heart beat. there are medical exceptions, but critics say the language is vague, leaving doctors fearful of getting sued for performing one without a court order. the judge siding with cox, saying the idea that ms. cox wants desperately to be a parent, and this law might actually cause her to lose that ability is shocking and would be a genuine miscarriage of justice. the texas attorney general pushing back strongly, arguing cox has failed to show she qualifies for a medical exception. the ag sending a letter to cox's hospital, warning prosecutions are still possible if they allow her doctor to perform an unlawful abortion, despite the ruling. >> the rule of law doesn't mean anything to the attorney general of texas. >> reporter: that decision applies only to cox. separate challenges to the laws in texas fild by other women are still ongoing. meanwhile, cox dreams of expanding her family one day. >> i want the opportunity to get the health care i need and heal, and then, you know, try again. >> and this is exactly why we need politicians and lawyers and men like the texas attorney general to stay out of doctors' offices and out of women's rights and choices to get health care. this is an abomination, and this is happening repeatedly across the country. women have put their lives in jeopardy, their ability to have children again in jeopardy, their ability to have a healthy birth, or to deal with a fetal abnormality that could impact not only the life of their potential baby but themselves. it's crazy. lisa, what happened here, that this poor woman was put through so much agony when she should have gotten the health care she needed pronto, end of story? >> i think, mika, what happened, as laura explained, the law allows for exceptions, but they're not clearly worded. you have people like paxton trying to get people out of the exceptions, so cox had to go to court. there was press coverage about another lawsuit in texas last week. she saw the press coverage, ask that's how she got in touch with her current attorneys. were it not for other women's bravery and challenging texas's law, kate cox might not have been in a position to get that tro. there are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of other kate coxs all throughout the nation, and they deserve relief from these draconian laws. >> former litigator lisa rubin covering a lot of ground for us this morning, thank you very much. we'll be talking about this again very soon. coming up, the ukrainian minister of foreign affairs is our guest this morning, as negotiations continue in the senate on an aid package that includes critical funding for the war-torn country. meanwhile, house republicans are one step closer to a vote on an impeachment inquiry into president biden. we'll discuss that and much more with democratic congressman ro khanna. 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who can treat this? stop typing, and start talking. it could be a medical condition called peyronie's disease, or pd. you're not alone, there is hope. find a specialized urologist who can diagnose and treat pd. visit makeapdplan.com today. bipartisan talks resumed in the senate yesterday about a possible deal to increase southern border funding. a democratic source familiar with negotiations tells nbc news that although, quote, there is still a lot of daylight between the two sides, they are back at the table. the bill being discussed would include funding for the border as well as israel and ukraine. last week's negotiations broke down after democrats accused republicans of insisting on, quote, extreme policies at the border. in remarks on wednesday, president biden urged both sides to keep talking, a message that was well received by the lead republican negotiator. >> i am willing to make significant compromises on the border. we need to fix the problemen broken border system. it is broken. >> the president's comments yesterday, were they helpful to negotiations? >> sure, yeah. i mean, the president made it very clear, obviously, that, you know, he sees the problem at the border and wants to do it. the white house made a statement, let's get something resolved. ukraine is too important not to do this. i did think it was helpful for him to make that statement, and i reciprocate it back to the white house, i hear you. let's bring in democratic member of the house oversight committee, congressman ro khanna of california. a lot to talk with you about. i know these negotiations right now are happening over in the senate, but overall, what is the hope for funding for aid to israel and ukraine getting through? >> well, we hope the senate sends us something. unfortunately, in the house, we're busy debating and voting on trivial matters opposed to what the american people want. yesterday, we voted on whether to censure jamal bowman for pulling a fire alarm, where the american people wans us to get aid to ukraine, to vote on israel, on taiwan, to make sure we have a budget. that's just not the agenda of the house republicans. it is un-serious. >> certainly, we heard yesterday, and i got some new reporting, congressman, about how senators from both sides of the aisle are calling for the white house to take a more active role in these negotiations. since that first few months of the president's time in office, they've largely taken a hands-off approach, letting congress sort it out. now, there is a hope the president will come in and act as a closer, as you mentioned, as the clock is ticking toward the end of the year and also government funding expiring. i wanted to ask you, in particular, there have been a lot of democrats, progressive democratsreluctant to put in a lot of measures at the border, fearful they evoke some of the policies even put in place by donald trump. what do you think is an acceptable amount of border security? is what they're talking about too far? >> we absolutely need border security, but the biggest thing we need is more border agents and immigration judges and processing folks on the border. here's what the republicans are talking about. they want to eliminate parole. parole is what the president used to have ukrainian refugees come into the united states. parole is what he has used to have afghani refugees who helped our troops in afghanistan come to the united states. parole is something every president has used. to take that away is to undermine our fundamental values. they are so extreme, and it's actually not going to solve the issues at the border. >> good morning. a lot of what republicans want this to be tied to is foreign aid, as you said, including for ukraine. there's real concern, we've heard from the biden administration, from the pentagon, that without this $106 billion new package of aid to ukraine, that vladimir putin could roll through ukraine and get his wish, that he's playing the long game. he is hoping the west has worn down and america will lose its will to support ukraine. are you hoping and thinking the aid will get to ukraine soon? >> i can't say i'm confident given the republican position. here's what i don't understand, i've supported the president's policy since day one. i admire the ukrainian people to standing up to putin. even if you had doubts, you're now a year -- over a year into the war. why would you now, given all of the resistance, suddenly want to give putin a blank check to just march into kyiv and stop supporting ukraine? wouldn't you want -- even if you want the war to end, wouldn't you want ukraine to be fighting and holding on to their sovereignty while you're calling for negotiations? it makes no sense. the other thing that makes no sense is trying to tie it to border security. we had a rebellion in the house for quote, unquote, single-subject bills. they wanted to vote on one issue at a time. why can't we have an up or down vote on israel, ukraine, taiwan? why are we linking that to comprehensive immigration reform? they're different issues. >> congressman ro khanna of california, thank you very much for being on this morning. >> thank you. next week, a key summit of eu nations will take place, where a decision is expected to be made regarding ukraine's attempt to enter the union. last night in paris, french president emmanuel macron hosted viktor orban, the prime minister of hungary, in a bid to bring him on board in support of ukraine's membership. orban has previously voiced concerns about ukraine joining the eu. joining us now from kyiv is the ukrainian minister of foreign affairs. it is very good to have you with us this morning. i guess, first of all, what's your response to viktor orban having concerns about ukraine joining the eu? >> well, ukraine's membership in the european union is in the best interest of hungary, because i doubt prime minister orban would like to see russia -- or a russia-controlled country as itsneighbor. membership of ukraine in the eu means more prosperity and more safety for entire europe and for entire democratic community in the world. hungary must be interested in that. >> yeah, and that russian neighbor, president putin, has just announced that he is seeking to extend his power into the next few years, extend his presidential term. he's already been in power for two decades. can you talk a little bit about the situation on the battlefield, how ukrainian troops are doing against this russian invasion so far, right now? >> well, after securing a major victory in the black sea, where ukraine succeeded in pushing back russian black sea fleet to the eastern coast of russia, and that allowed us to restore our export corridors and export grain and other critical materials to the world market, all eyes are on the land front line. the situation there is different depending on the spot we are looking at. in some places, ukrainian forces advance. in other places, russia is trying to occupy the city. they're throwing thousands of people into the battle. we successfully defend the city. we understand that russia is trying to secure a propaganda victory for itself at any cost. they don't care about their own human lives. they care only for the success of putin to report to the people of russia at the cost of the lives of the people of russia. this is more or less the situation, and, of course, air-raid attacks continue. drones, iranian drones, russian missiles. we had one -- we had another attack this morning, actually. our air defense system is repelling these attacks, and i'd like to thank the american people and the united states for providing us with necessary air defense systems and intercepters. >> minister, good morning. on that very question, we just spoke, and maybe you could hear, with a united states congress man who supports a continued effort in support of ukraine from the united states side, but is worried that republicans may be holding it up. can you make the case to the american people, who after almost two years now may be wavering a bit and saying, okay, we've spent an awful lot of our taxpayer money on ukraine. make the case why you need america's support going forward and why congress needs to work this out. >> well, the best way to ensure prosperity and safety of america and american people is for america to project strength abroad and help other democracies defend themselves against authoritarian rulers. because if we can succeed in ukraine, it'll be a clear message of motivation to dictators and other authoritarian rulers across the world to not attack neighbors and push back democracies. the price of defeating them will be much higher. the price tag will be much higher. so what is happening, what the united states are giving ukraine today is not a charity. it is an investment in global security, in the security and prosperity of the american people, and it's the cheapest, as big as it is, the cheapest you can get. because i would like to remind, that ukraine someone of the very few countries in the history who has not requested american boots on the ground. we are paying the highest price with the lives and sacrifice of our people. all we ask other countries to do, and the united states is leading this coalition, is give us what we need to fight and to defend what is in the interest of all of us. >> ukraine's minister of foreign affairs, thank you so much for being on this morning. we will talk to you again soon. thank you. coming up, we'll be joined by a spokesperson for israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu as the white house becomes more pointed in its criticism of the country's military operation in southern gaza. 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>> we've been communicating with the white house on an hourly base, i would say. yesterday, president biden also spoke to prime minister netanyahu, and just like us, by the way, the president is very, very much concerned about the fate and the well-being of the hostages, 137 of them still being held in gaza. there is a 10-month-old baby, 25-year-old noa argamani, whose mother is dying of cancer. every day is a struggle for this family. you're our best friends. america is our best friend. we take advice. we follow in the footsteps of the scheme of the international coalition to defeat isis. we want to reach a stage in which the terrorists no longer have a hold to a territory. and we are doing everything humanly possible to ease the civilian suffering in gaza, to the extent possible, and also to safeguard the civilian population there. now, as you know, we're acting in a very surgical, judicial way. we put out -- when we move forward to the next stage, as we move southwards to continue to operate against the strongholds, we put out this evacuation zone map which divides the gaza stri to numbered zones. it is very, very detailed. when we go to fight a terrorist in a certain area, certain neighborhood, certain zone, we announce ahead of time where we're going and when we're going. i'm sure families of service members and friends are watching us now and wondering, well, what kind of military does that? who announces ahead of time where exactly their troops are going to operate? well, this is what we do because we're moral. >> we should say, as we've said a thousand times over the last two months, this is what hamas does. it puts itself behind civilians. it puts itself in hospitals, in schools, and has no regard for its own people. when the civilians moved south, they thought they were doing the right thing. they go to refugee camps, and still so many are being killed. what to you say to a civilian who says, i'm trapped in gaza. i did what the israeli government said, get out of the north, go to the south, get to the camps, and still too many are dying. >> there is a war situation. nobody but hamas wanted it. they dragged us into this war. there's no perfect solution here, right? we told them to evacuate from the north when the heavy fighting was taking place there. we're still working there to secure these strongholds. there's fighting taking place in the north, people have to remember, and now in the south, we're telling the population exactly where we have these safe havens, these pockets where humanitarian aid is also reaching. in fact, we expect the international agencies, the u.n., to keep up, to bring in more sheltering equipment and more essential provisions. we've put no limits on the essential provisions that are able to enter gaza in terms of medical supplies, water, food. >> so the prime minister in recent days made clear that when the war does come to an end, whenever that might be, he believed the israeli military needed to play a role in staying in gaza, to secure the region after the conflict. the white house has strongly said they disagree with that. tell us more about the best friends saying, don't do this. >> there's no daylight between jerusalem and washington. >> on this subject, there is. >> for the goals of the operation, to destroy hamas. also, we don't want a resurgence of terrorism. we don't want gaza to pose a threat in eliminating hamas. we say israel will have to keep some overriding security responsibility over the gaza strip. the hostages who came back, we want to be able to tell them that hamas will never kidnap them again. how can we look in the eyes of 4-year-old abigail edan, who lost both her parents, and tell her she's completely safe? right now, we can't. we don't want a resurgence of terrorism. this is why we said that we will have to keep this security presence for a certain period of time, and on the longer term, we want to see gaza being deradicalized, the palestinian society, not only gaza. we can no longer live with this situation, where our enemies and very large segments of the population believe the state of israel is temporary entity. the story of the jewish people, 3,000 years, doesn't end today, tomorrow, not ever. they have to understand that. >> how often has the prime minister met with families of the hostages? >> he has met with families of the hostages. i think you also reported this. i think just a few days ago, there was another meeting. >> what kind of pressure can the world, israel, the united states, the world put on the red cross to be allowed to actually find out who, among the hostages, needs help now, medical help now, and they've been refused entry, they've been refused access to the hostages? what added pressure can be put on them? >> so, first, i would like to thank president biden in that respect, because the white house is also putting pressure in that aspect. but i think that it has to come from the international community as a whole. also, media, social media, if people just demanded it, if there was outside pressure, it's not only from leadership, it's something -- it's so basic, you know? it is so basic, that the hostages will be -- the red cross would be able to get access to the hostages, to examine their condition. not only that, you know, when we tell the palestinian civilians of gaza that we want them to evacuate to a certain zone for their safety, to safeguard them, if some of these international agencies that have some presence on the ground, the red cross, u.n. agencies, would have told them, as well, to heed our advice, that would have helped a lot. we have our ways to reach them, leaflets, phone calls, media, social media, we're doing everything humanly possible, but we could have seen probably better results if some of these international agencies would have repeated what we tell the population. >> the first objective, as you said, the prime minister said, is get the hostages home. 137 of them left. i told you we had the parents who live on long island, israeli-americans of a 22-year-old named omer, being held there. they haven't heard from him since october 6th. can you speak to the tactical difficulty of reaching these hostages, and what would you say to parents like those of omer right now? >> so, we're all hugging these families right now, obviously. it's a holiday, hanukkah. it makes it even more difficult. you know, these hostages have been held there for two months now. it's unfathomable. we have definitely some idea, some intelligence, but it is a very complicated situation. we're fighting there. we want to bring them back, and we know that hamas only responds to pressure. if we didn't put military pressure, if we weren't hitting them as hard as we are right now, and we did before, we wouldn't have seen the release of hostages. that's what we're doing right now. >> you have that truce for seven days that you got some of the hostages released. that broke down. >> day eight. >> is there hope that there could be another truce, that we could get more of these hostages home to their families? >> one way or another. we're working in various avenues to bring about their release. the goals are, as we said, to eliminate the hamas terrorist regime and bring all hostages home. now, these two goals go hand in hand. they're not contradictory. >> mika has a question for you. mika? >> i'm just curious, i mean, it's been two months, tal, and a lot of us have been asking this question repeatedly, how it's possible that so many hours passed, victims were trapped, murdered, raped, kidnapped. hamas stormed the gates. they stormed by land. they stormed in atvs. they stormed by the air, in paragliders, in plain sight. i don't understand how it took hours and that there wasn't an immediate response in moments. >> this is a good question, and we are also asking it. we're providing answers, and we will share the -- >> what's the answer? >> we will share these answers when the time -- when the time will come because we are still investigating it. we will continue to investigate. you know, we're a democratic country. we have conducted thorough inquiries in the past, and we will continue to do it. we are drawing some lessons as we go because this can never, ever happen again. there is no doubt here that october 7th was a major failure on our end. >> there has to be some immediate answer. i mean, it's beyond a major failure. i mean, lives could have been saved. this country is not that big. i mean, physically, to get to these victims and to this attack could have been minutes, and it was hours. there's got to be an explanation for that. >> once we have a solid explanation, once we thoroughly inquired all of this, we will, of course, share. right now, we are drawing the lessons that we need to operate right now. >> there are people who really want to understand what happened. take a look at an interview that richard engel did just recently. take a look. >> reporter: hamas went house to house here for eight agonizing hours before any rescue came. residents locked themselves in their safe rooms. hamas set houses on fire to smoke them out. rita says many here are urious at hamas and the government. how did it take eight hours to have a response? >> why it took eight hours? because they [ bleep ] didn't care! >> i mean, is that going to be the answer? what's the answer for the delayed response? and i'm not just talking about a little delay. we're talking about eight hours were people are waiting and dying. now, you have people, victims, the ones who survived, who feel their government and their military and their police don't care about them. how do you -- there's got to be an explanation for these people. >> the government cares. the police cares. the idf troops, they care. we all care. we are united right now in this goal to eliminate the hamas terrorist regime and make sure the october 7th massacre, anything on this scale, this scope, this brutality, will never, ever happen again. this is why we are operating right now in gaza. this is why we need to send an unequivocal message, not only to hamas, but all bad players in our region right now. so that this will never happen again. you know, we have a saying in hebrew, our sages said that whoever becomes cruel -- merciful to the cruel will eventually become cruel to the merciful. this is why we have to hit hamas hard right now. >> but you can understand the shock of the israeli people and the world -- >> that's not an explanation. >> -- in fact, that a military, an intelligence service this sophisticated, renowned around the world, could allow this to happen. >> of course. i said it before, it's a failure, and we will investigate it. we have done -- we've heard inquiries in the past, and we will continue to find out exactly what happened, what transpired, why was the response, as mika described? it's our moral duty to provide answers to these families. it's our moral duty to make sure that these families -- that all of us will never go through anything on this scale that happened on october 7th. >> to press that point a little further, it's been revealed in just the last few days that there were specific warnings. analysts said this exact sort of attack was coming and that the government and military was warned of that months in advance. is that part of the inquiry? did those warnings reach the prime minister? >> we saw the report, but, again, i can't reveal too much about it. all i can say is that we are investigating, and we will provide all the answers. i mean, maybe if you invite me here in a few months, i'll have more answers for you. but we will conduct these inquiries. right now, we're so focused on the military effort and national effort, honestly. >> well, i'm just trying, though, i mean, how does -- i can't even imagine a family member of a hostage right now or someone who has lost someone living with the reality that this attack was being carried out, those gates, as we've shown them, i mean, as willie pointed out, americans have learned from israel how to become secure. those gates have cameras, right? those gates have members of the military there. there was communication. there were cameras. there was an understanding this attack was under way. nobody came. is that -- how does -- why? why? they need more than, "we're going to investigate, and we'll tell you later." by the way, i would think, if america is israel's best friend, that best friends need transparency. so what's the answer? >> well, we are communicating with the white house, as i said, and the reason why we're operating the way we're operating, so decisively against hamas right now in gaza and also sending a message -- >> i'm not talking about hamas. i'm talking about the response time. >> so, as you describe, it is the worst feeling in the world, to not be safe in your own home. it's unfathomable. to that extent, again, for that reason, we're operating right now. we will provide answers when the time comes to provide the difficult answers. you know, mika, we want to conduct thorough inquiries. once we have the right answers, we will share them. but this takes time. right now, my nation is focused on one thing alone, making sure the october 7th massacre will never happen again. as part of it, we're also drawing some lessons internally to, you know, things we can implement as we go right now. in terms of the bigger picture, the answer is you're waiting to hear, that will have to wait. >> so, right now, you could not design a more nightmarish battle scene than what the idf is engaged in right now. one of the most highly congested areas in the world. >> that's accurate. >> house to house, village to village. does prime minister netanyahu really believe that he can kill, eliminate, or capture every member of hamas? >> you see, i said it before, that we're following the scheme of the international coalition to defeat isis. what we want to reach is a point in which, obviously, we want to see hamas surrendering, but if you're asking me, are you going to eliminate each and every one of these terrorists? well, we want to see that the terrorists will no longer have a possession of a territory. i think that's the most important thing. obviously, we want to reach all the perpetrators, the masterminds behind the october 7th massacre. that's why we're also operating in khan yunis, the city from which the planning and execution of october 7th has emerged. this is also the city of mohamme ds al deif and the head of the military wing. >> when do you know you won? is it when the hostages are home? is it when you're satisfied hamas has been defeated? >> it's all of the above. it's all of the above. our military leadership, political leadership will make this call. >> tal heinrich, thanks for taking our questions this morning. appreciate it. still ahead on "morning joe," a conversation on cybersecurity. former department of homeland security official chris krebs joins us to talk about threats from china, iran, and russia. plus, we are keeping an eye on wall street ahead of today's new jobs numbers, coming out just over an hour from now. some analysis on that data as soon as it comes across. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. and advice retiremens can help you leave a legacy for the ones you love. that's the value of ownership. at bombas, we're obsessed with comfort. quality. movement. because your basic things should be your best things. one purchased equals one donated. visit bombas.com and get 20% off your first order. 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what are you most concerned about in terms of these threats we're discussing? >> morning, mika. i have to add, there's one more. >> okay. >> earlier this week, the treasury department sanctioned some north korean actors for a pretty significant cryptocurrency heist they've been running for quite some time, over $1 billion in crypto that they've managed to snag, all in support of a -- the satellite launch capabilities for north korea. the big four have been active, and they've been hit by u.s. and our allies. what am i worried about the most? you know, the here and now, based on that last segment you just had, is the iranian government actor, cyber actors, are actively scanning for, in the united states, israel, and elsewhere, for israel-backed companies. they're trying to see if there's any technology, products, or vendors where equipment is seen on the open internet, and they're going directly after them. we saw it last week with the water facility up in pennsylvania. there are some basic techniques that these organizations that are using these products can take to protect themselves. unfortunately, we're still not seeing the level of cyber hygiene we'd like to see out there. there are some vulnerable organizations that the fbi and others are trying to reach right now to help protect themselves. >> i want to go further on that idea. we know federal agencies have done their best to harden their own cyber infrastructure, but it's more the soft targets, like a water facility, or maybe it is an lek electrical grid, school, that are susceptible. where are we as a nation in making those facilities more secure? >> well, i think the reality is that it takes a significant investment of resources and personnel to get to an appropriate level of security, regardless of where you sit in the u.s. economy. whether you're a big bank or a local school. we do need organizations like the fbi out there, educating, creating awareness, giving simple tips on what these organizations can do. there's no question that there is a soft underbelly in the united states that our adversaries are regularly hitting. what we are seeing, though, is an increased resilience, where security, 100% security is not the objective here, but the ability to fight through and battle through and recover from an attack. ransomware, which is every organization's baseline threat, ransomware is the most pernicious, most persistent and pervasive threat out there. we have seen a significant uptick in ransomware over the last, i'd say, six to seven weeks. >> chris, we always look forward to having you on because you have so much to tell us and so much to say. in this joyous holiday season, given your expertise, could you please tell us, what should americans be most frightened about? >> thanks, mike. >> you know, you never bring the risk management guy into a conversation to have an upbeat, bright, cheery discussion. look, there are things that everyone can do, whether it's a business or an individual. that's just be mindful of what you're doing when you're online. you know, what you're clicking on. we saw yesterday that the u.s. government and the brits, as you led up in the intro, sanctioned a couple russian cyber actors. they were just using basic phishing techniques, going after officials. be mindful of what emails you're getting, where you're providing your credentials. using an app on the phone, okta, google, whatever, make sure you're not giving away the keys to your own kingdom. >> a topic that's come up not just for parents of teenagers but also around the israeli war, it's tiktok and the information that young people are digesting, a lot false, about what is and isn't happening in the war there. how concerned are you as a parent, you have kids, but also as somebody who understands this better than most of us, about tiktok, a chinese-owned entity that members of congress have suggested in some places ought to be shut down completely because it's used as data mining and pushing messages into the brains of american kids. does tiktok concern you? >> you're always good for a tiktok question, willie. >> i have teenagers, man. help me out. >> look, there are a number of different social media platforms that i think pose a significant degree of risk. tiktok has both the kind of influence, the narrative driving risk, as well as the data security risk you just pointed out. the state of montana passed a law to try to ban tiktok in the state. it's been enjoined, at least temporarily, primarily because of the first amendment challenge, banning information through the platform. there is a significant data risk, though, and we've seen previously organizations affiliated with the parent company, bitetiktok, it uses devices associated with tiktok accounts here in the united states. i think that's the real, immediate national security risk. more broadly, these platforms are being abused. that's what we saw meta do when they released a adversary threat last week. 5,000 chinese accounts specifically driving at u.s. political divisions, trying to create discord and animosity amongst americans here. we are going to see more of that in the future, 2024, the election here in the u.s., in taiwan, mexico, india, throughout the world. one of the biggest years for elections in recent time. it is going to be very, very active, very, very sporty out there on social media. >> you know, chris, you drove me precisely to my final question to you, about the 2024 election. as a guy who famously said after the 2020 election that there was no fraud, that votes were not deleted, that the machines were secure, bumping up against a narrative push by the trump campaign, which eventually got you relieved of you position, to put it politely. how concerned are you about 2024, about the security, the physical security of the vote, despite what political actors may say about it? >> so the physical security of voting systems, the ability to cast a vote, count the vote, certify the vote. as i understand it, talking to partners in the national security security, there's no information that suggests an adversary has the ability to disrupt those functions and processes. that has been consistent for over half a decade. part of the success and part of further ensuring the resilience of this process is paper ballots. the prevalence of paper ballots out there. we were over 95% of votes cast in the 2020 election had a paper ballot associated with it. we have to continue driving toward as close to 100% as possible. that's not going to keep the bad actors, whether abroad or here at home, from pointing to little wobbles in the system and undermining confidence in the process, in our democratic institutions. they did it in the uk with the brexit vote. the iranians attempted to do it in 2020. as i've said recently, our adversary's motivations have completely shifted from 2020. putin has ever incentive to get involved and mix it up in the '24 election, as does xi with china and the iranians, of course, with what they have going on. 2024 is going to be a very, very dynamic election here in the u.s. with all sorts of players trying to muck it up. >> former director of the department of homeland security, cybersecurity, and infrastructure security agency, chris krebs. thank you for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. >> thanks so much. coming up, our next guest has some insight about how to unlock hidden potential. best selling author adam grant joins us with his new book on the science of achieving greater things, "hidden potential." before we go to break, willie, what do you have planned for "sunday today?" >> she's no adam grant, but she is scarlett johansson, which is not a bad choice. >> stop. >> not bad. >> wow. >> barnicle calls her scar jo. >> i like it. >> scarlet getting oscar talk for her role in "asteroid city." we got together also to talk about her beauty brand, the outset. building a successful business while being one of the biggest stars on the planet. scarlett johansson coming up on nbc this weekend on "sunday today." we'll be right back here on "morning joe" with adam grant. 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(vo) whichever. get your competitve offer at opendoor.com. just about 40 past the hour. congress has opened an investigation into harvard, m.i.t., and the university of pennsylvania, after their presidents faced widespread backlash following their testimony about growing anti-semitism on their campuses. all three leaders testified before the house committee on education and the workforce on tuesday and dodged questions on whether the students calling for the genocide of jews violates their school's code of conduct. in response, the house committee opened an investigation into the three institutions, as its chairman, congresswoman virginia foxx of north carolina, criticized the schools for tailing to tackle the rampant anti-semitism on their campuses. in addition, the trio are facing calls to resign, as well as the loss of significant funds from donors. according to "the wall street journal," hedge fund manager ross al stevens said he'd pull back a donation to penn worth $100 million absent a change in the school's leadership. wow, we'll be following that. a record 12,000 undocumented migrants were stopped in a single day by border patrol this week, and it's adding up to more strain on america's big cities. nbc news homeland security correspondent julia ainsley has more. >> reporter: denver joining the growing list of cities struggling to handle a record surge of migrants, with entire blocks full of migrants sleeping on the street. >> it is a crisis. >> reporter: mike johnston is one of five democratic mayors recently writing president biden, saying action is needed to help cities address the crisis. what's the one thing you want from the biden administration right now? >> when you admit someone for asylum in the country, they should get work authorization. we should expedite the process of approing that application so it doesn't take four years, it could be 30 days. >> reporter: johnston is under increasing pressure from counties not taking in migrants. douglas county demanding denver drop its status as a sanctuary city, a jurisdiction where officials won't enforce federal immigration laws. critics say that attracts more migrants with the illegal crossings at the southern border this year at record highs. what would you like to see the city do? >> i'd like the city to actively proclaim that it is not a sanctuary city. i think it is important that we're not bringing people to a cold weather climate. >> reporter: there are more than 2,600 migrants in denver shelter's system, and nearly 30,000 who have come through denver in the last year, costing taxpayers more than $32 million so far. denver shelters are full with some migrants now sleeping in tent encampments like these, where temperatures drop below freezing at night. >> it seems pretty inconvenient for them and for us. really, a lot of people in this apartment complex are concerned. >> reporter: families with children are given priority in denver's shelters. we meet a group of adults who just arrived. hennesis says they don't know where they're supposed to go next. "we don't know. we have no knowledge, direction, location," she tells us. juan saying, "we had to go through seven countries on foot through the jungle. we came for the permit." >> julia ainsley with that report. coming up, the secret to unlocking "hidden potential." best selling author adam grant is here to tell us how some of the greats have done it. he's next on "morning joe." mus. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ in the u.s. we see millions of cyber threats each year. only pay for what you need. that rate is increasing as more and more businesses move to the cloud. - so, the question is... - cyber attack! as cyber criminals expand their toolkit, we must expand as well. we need to rethink... next level moments, need the next level network. 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>> i mean, he did a whole documentary about how he was underrated. if you'd watched him in high school, you would have said, this guy isn't even going to play in college. he is too short, and he is not quick enough. the only thing he can do is shoot. but what we don't know at that point is steph curry is dedicated to completely reimagining the game. he takes his shot, which is releasing from his hip and too easy to block, and basically goes back to the drawing board. he moves backward to move forward. he needs a higher release to get over defenders. after months of discomfort, he is able to improve his game, and that's the beginning of his rise. >> that's one of the things you write about in the book, this embrace of discomfort. you have to take a step backward to figure out how to succeed, rather than plowing forward. >> when psychologists study people who get stuck, if you hit a plateau or a wall, you often have to reverse and learn a new method, which means you're going to feel like you're getting worse in order to get better. >> that's, i think we've all experienced that to some extent, where you feel like, okay, i've hit a roadblock and don't know how to get around it. going backwards is sometimes the answer. what is the science? it's your >> i think one of the mistakes that a lot of us make, and you can see this in steph too, is we have to push ourselves through the daily grind. that's a recipe for burnout, and it's also it's also what psychologists called boredout . you have to turn the grind into a game, and it's unique to sports, but it's not. you can do it in any field, and i've even started doing this as a writer. when i get stuck on trying to make my sentences more concrete and bring them to life, i'll start to write in different voices. how would maya angelou write this sentence? no one wants to read that, but it's a great source of writing fun for me. >> steph curry is an amazing guy to begin with, but listening to him and listening to you talk about him, part of his key might be, and you tell us, is he knows who he is. i mean, he has a real sense of who he is, and i was just looking at -- you were on cnbc the other day, your keys to success, and you had 11 of them, and several of them were very fascinating. people -- successful people ask for advice, not feedback, but one that really jumped off the page at me is they open doors for people who are underrated and overlooked. that's most of us. >> it really is. it's amazing how many late bloomers there are, and i think you can see this in music especially where for, you know, for every prodigy who might stand out early, there are going to be multiple people who did not have natural talent. if you look at the research, who were not recognized by their early teachers, even their own parents as having superior ability, but through real passion for learning and through seeking out coaches who can make them better, they actually exceeded their own expectations, other people's expectations and we shouldn't count people out because they aren't naturals at first. >> give us examples to beyond steph curry that you write about in the book. one would be steve martin. tell us about him, but a couple others as well. >> steve martin was not a natural comedian at all. he bombed on stage for years and one of the things he had to do was change his style of learning. he had to stand up and improvise. he had to learn how to write. he spent years writing for tv and that honed his ability to deliver those perfect one-liners we know him for today. other examples, i love the raging rooks in chess. this is a group of poor racial minorities in harlem who had to compete against these kids who had been trained for years at elite private schools and they knew that talent is evenly distributed, but opportunity is not. he said, i'm going to teach them the game backward. instead of teaching them how to move a pawn, i'll show them how to checkmate and they'll get the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat and that'll fire them up to learn the game. they'll go onto a national championship, but they learned a set of character skills to do greater things in life. >> a lot of mistakes a lot of us make is striving for perfection. you put us in the sweet spot between the flawed and the flawless. >> i'm still struggling at this myself. >> all of us do. >> i wrote a chapter on overcoming perfectionism, and i'm putting together a quiz for people to take and i take it myself, and my worst score was on perfectionism so i failed the perfectionism test. i'm still in recovery. >> how do we rid ourselves? that's an instinct that you want to do it the best you can possibly do, and hopefully perfectly. how do you embraces it's never going to be perfect ever? >> we have to figure out what the right imperfections are, and i learned this as a springboard diver. my coach said, there's no such thing for a perfect ten. we have to calibrate for every dive what's perfect for you. on some, i was aiming for 7, and on others, 4 1/2. i'll ask people for feedback and the goal is i want a nine on each chapter, but if i'm posting on social media, i'm happy with a 6 1/2 which is right above getting canceled. >> that's good. >> that's a good place for all of us to be. right above getting canceled. not only an accomplished diver, but a professional magician at one time. the man's talented. >> long retired. >> the man's talents are limitless. the book is titled "hidden potential." "new york times" best-selling author, adam grant. congrats on the book. >> thank you. still ahead, we'll get legal analysis on the tax charges on hunter biden and how they're different from the case in delaware. plus, the possible legal strategy from donald trump's team, if he takes the stand in his civil fraud trial. it's all straight ahead on "morning joe." on "morning joe." why are we the only birds heading this way? [ screams ] we're trying to get to jamaica. stay close and... everything will be all right. i'm ok. i'm ok. (vo) no matter who you are there are times it can be tough to be yourself when you have severe asthma. triggers can pop up out of nowhere and lead to an asthma attack. but no matter what type of severe asthma you have tezspire can help you be you. tezspire is an add-on treatment for people 12 and over that can help you have fewer attacks,... breathe better and relieve your asthma symptoms. so you can be you, whoever you are. tezspire is not a rescue medication. don't take tezspire if you're allergic to it. allergic reactions may occur and can be serious. rash or eye allergy can happen. don't stop your asthma treatments unless your doctor tells you to. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection or your asthma worsens. sore throat, joint and back pain may occur. avoid live vaccines. by helping control your asthma tezspire can help you be you. no matter who you are. ask your asthma specialist about tezspire today. is this for me? if you like squeaky toys from chewy it is. did i 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the state's attorney general is threatening to prosecute any doctor who treats the woman. we'll talk about that. with us, we have the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire, and msnbc contributor, mike barnicle is up early for us. willie? >> let's begin, mika, in israel as the country continues its offensive into gaza, pushing further into the southern part of the territory on a mission to destroy hamas. yesterday, idf officials announced they struck dozens of terrorist targets in the area, including a tunnel shaft. now the united states is urging israel to do more to protect civilians, and to allow aid into gaza. nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel reports. >> reporter: two months after hamas killed more than 1,200 people in israel, the israeli military is escalating its campaign to overthrow the group in gaza, but for the 2.3 million palestinians in gaza who can't leave, the war isn't the only danger. hunger is spreading. massive crowds gathered outside a food distribution center. the u.n. is warning of a humanitarian catastrophe. just across the border from gaza, we visited this kibbutz where on october 7th, hamas fighters killed and kidnapped everyone they could find. driven by her neighbor, irina returned. the 73-year-old was held hoss damage in gaza and freed last week. she was overwhelmed by the damage. her door is still smashed in. hamas dragged her away from here. irina came back to collect a prayer book for hanukkah. her neighbor tells her hamas is still firing rockets and she should gott safe room if there's incoming. irina badly wanted to see if her cat was still alive. she thought about the cat while a hostage, and when she found him, she smiled. what's it like for you to come back here after all that you have been through? >> here, i feel better, but not very well. i want the war to stop, she says. she did not want to talk about what happened to her while she was a captive. and irina's 28-year-old grandson is still being held in gaza. hanukkah is a holiday of light. people close to us in gaza, must return home, she says. hamas went house to house here for eight agonizing hours before any rescue came. residents locked themselves in their safe rooms. so hamas set houses on fire to smoke them out. rita says many here are furious at hamas and the government. >> how did it take eight hours to have a response? >> why it took eight hours, because they [ bleep ] didn't care. 6:30, they came in here. >> reporter: rita took me to the local post office where the boxes have been marked with stickers. >> this is one of the most disturbing images that i have seen in a long time. this post office, and on the boxes, red, killed. blue, returned. black, dead. >> yes. >> and to be honest, it's not a lot of blue. >> reporter: next door was the cafeteria where the tables are set for those who can't come, the dead and missing. one out of every four people who lived on this kibbutz was either murdered or taken hostage. >> now it's the first holiday of the kibbutz that is not happening, and we need to bring them back now. >> richard engel joins us live now from jerusalem. we heard in your piece the frustration with the israeli military response, the time it took on october 7th to reach those kibbutzes. we were talking about that yesterday on this show. what did officials say about that long span of time before they could get there? >> reporter: they are saying absolutely nothing. they are postponing that question until after the war is over, and many israelis initially were accepting a, and they said, fine. this is a national -- a time of national crisis, national emergency. the investigations will be held later, but as time passes, they are demanding answers. how could it possibly have taken in just that kibbutz, eight hours? other places it was longer. we spoke to people who were hiding by the side of the road for 10, 12, 14 hours. some places, 24 hours. this is a country with an active military, active police force. it has lots of pla l helicopters. how could it possibly -- and it's a small country. how could they have missed what looked like an army crossing the border? the hamas militants crossed into israel, most of them in a militarized uniform, in green. many of them in vehicles, on motorcycles. they then were setting fires, rampaging. the israelis throughout were calling each other, communicating. i've spoken to family of survivors who managed themselves to send friends and relatives to go rescue people before there was any kind of military or police response. so there was not just an intelligence failure to not anticipate this attack, but then a complete failure in responding to it, and the official line is, yes, there was a failure. we will deal with that at a later time, and there will be a full and thorough investigation. >> richard, so israel also saying it has detained hundreds of people suspected of terrorism. what more can you tell us about that? >> reporter: so there is a considerable amount of confusion about these -- these images that many people are finding disturbing. they show -- they were broadcast on israeli television extensively yesterday, and they show at least 100 palestinians on the ground, stripped down to their underwear holding their head in their hands guarded by israel troops, and the israeli military spokesman said they were not officially released by the military. didn't deny them, but said he didn't know if or when the israeli soldiers may have taken them, but he said that the main mission is to confront hamas and go after hamas suspects wherever they are. the israeli media said that they were men who were arrested in gaza, and that some of them included hamas suspects who turned themselves in. palestinians are viewing this very differently. they say that this was an attempt by israeli forces to humiliate palestinians and break the will of the people in gaza. >> nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel reporting again this morning for us from israel. richard, thanks so much. so jonathan lemire, we know that yesterday president biden spoke to prime minister netanyahu. obviously public support for the mission to destroy hamas, but again, emphasizing perhaps even a little more strongly this time the need to avoid civilian casualties and to allow routes for aid to get in. >> this is probably the sharpest criticism yet. the president expressed that for the prime minister, but we've heard publicly from secretary of state blinking yesterday and he was very frank. he said, when i talked about the limit to -- the efforts to limit civilian casualties, what i said now and what is actually happening, a gap remains in between, meaning that israel has very much not done what it promised to do to not take out these civilians. these are obviously disturbing images. yesterday, we don't know much about them just yet, but we do know that the civilian casualty total continues to rise, remains very high, and to this point, mike, mine, the white house is still very clear, and that's not going to change. they're supporting israel, but there seems to be a real growing rift with how this war is being conducted, and we know privately the president has some real misgivings about the israeli prime minister. >> i think he probably privately has some real misgivings about netanyahu, indeed. it's a highly controversial thing that's going on in israel right now. you have the most congested, urban situation in the world in gaza, and you have ongoing combat each and every hour of each and every day. you have a nation, israel, a small nation as richard just pointed out in the report, consumed by the fate of the hostages and the plight of answering the question of why the israeli -- what happened to the israeli army? those two things you keep hearing. you've heard it, and they're consuming the state of israel. there's no answers yet, and netanyahu is sitting on a very perilous position for himself. willie, this is a tough situation all around. >> yeah, and mika, secretary of state blinken also held a joint news conference with david cameron, the foreign minister of the uk yesterday, and he was very stern in saying what are they doing to protect civilians and what's happening on the ground. he said, after pledging america's support for israel, but the criticism has become more public. >> there's a gap in trust, and this is a real challenge for the administration and for joe biden -- president joe biden, when he's dealing with a counterpart that you're not necessarily sure you're getting the full story. think of it this way. this response time question is not just a little follow-up we'll leave for later. this is a disturbing reality. eight hours? israel is the size of what? massachusetts maybe? benjamin netanyahu was very quick to declare war. he could assess the situation and realize that israel was at war, but eight hours to get to women who were being raped by the way for a year for months, disregarding a female analyst who said this is coming. there's a 40-page document spelling it out, and i want to spell this out even more specifically for you. think about it. this is a small country. these gate-crossings are militarized. you're going to tell me they don't have cameras? you're going to tell me they don't have panic buttons? you're going to tell me they have absolutely no communication with the outside world? there was no warning of this? there was no sign of this? there was no way to know that we immediately need to respond and get there within minutes? this is a problematic question, and it's -- it's fair to ask. it should be asked now, and quite frankly, how does the administration go forward without knowing the answer? we're suffering the repercussions here in the united states. we're learning a lot about attitudes and the response to this complex situation, but that question needs to be answered. meanwhile, a 28-year-old man is facing federal charges for firing a gun outside a synagogue in upstate new york, hours before the start of hanukkah yesterday afternoon. the man allegedly fired two shots from a shotgun outside the temple in albany. roughly two dozen children were at a preschool inside the building at the time. no one was hurt. police say the man was caught in the temple's parking lot. as he was being taken into custody, the man said, free palestine. according to police, the episode is being investigated as a hate crime with the fbi in response to the incident. new york governor kathy hochul directed the state police and the new york national guard to be on high alert as the holiday gets under way. this morning, we continue our week-long look at the new special issue of "the atlantic", which delves into the potential dangers of a second term for donald trump, what it would pose for the country and the world. joining us now is one of the contributors to the issue, staff writer at "the atlantic," mark leibovich, and your piece is entitled, "this is who we are," and in it you write, in part, quote, in the last spring of the obama administration, michelle obama was delivering her final commencement address as first lady, at city college of new york. obama couldn't help but lob some barely cloaked denunciations of trump's wrecking ball. presidential campaign, the one that would soon be ratified with the republican nomination. that is not who we are, the first lady assured the graduates. that is not what this country stands for, no. the promise did not age well. not that november, and not since. the axiom prompts a question, who is we anyway? because it sure seems like a lot of this we keeps voting for trump. you can dismiss trump voters all you want, but give them this. they're every bit as american as any idealized vision of the place. in 2024, his detractors will have to reckon once again with the voters who got us here, to reconcile what it means to share our country with so many citizens who keep watching trump spiral deeper into his moral void and still conclude, yes. that's our guy. and mark, i can't agree with you more. i think that especially applies to the evangelical community and people who call themselves christians, who spend a lot of time judging other people, but can't seem to reconcile these two realities. i would also add that i do think a lot of people are somewhat victims of sort of a cult really. >> there's no doubt. i mean, the powers of persuasion in the media and given the sound machines that the right and the trump world has at their disposal, you know, online, you know, whether it's fox, whether it's any number of outlets, i mean, they have a very powerful messaging system, and it starts with the guy who basically has been in our faces for eight years or seven years, you know, and it could be more. so i mean, i think what i wanted to look at here, and, you know, the issue of "the atlantic" looks very, you know, very sort of issue by issue granularly at what this administration if it what i wanted to do is step back and sort of evaluate what it actually means to live in a country where this keeps happening. where this is a critical, electoral mass. it might not be a popular mass, but it's an electoral college majority where just a lot of people think this is fine. >> right. >> i don't think one -- we have a lot of information about donald trump. his character is not a mystery at this point. the fact is a lot of people like it, and that's the country we live in right now. >> mark, good morning. as usual, you're onto i think one of the central questions of our time, which is, if you can say in 2016, people took a flier on donald trump. maybe they didn't like hillary clinton and they thought he was going to be that ceo they'd seen on tv and shake things up and change the way washington gets done and do a bunch of deals with democrats and make everything work, but now as you write in the piece, there's a large body of evidence of how he conducts himself as president, how he conducts himself outside the presidency, of attempting to overturn the government. he got 74 million votes in 2020, and it's not just donald trump as you write. it's all th people like marjorie taylor greene and the list goes on and on. they're getting a lot of support, and people see what they do, how they conduct themselves, and how they behave in public and they say, yeah. i want more of that, and it's not a question people have reckoned with yet. it's not an anomaly. it's who we are. >> it's probably not a majority electorally, but, you know, the powers of denial though among people who don't support donald trump are extremely strong. i mean, i think there were -- like you said, there were people who sort of assumed at the end of 2016 that, okay. this is a one-off. this is a statement, you know, donald trump was sort of teaching a lesson to the political establishment, to the media, to people who have been sort of entrenched in this stuff for a long time and we want something new. we want to break this, and, you know, then it was broken, and then, you know, donald trump did not exactly go out in a blaze of glory. he did not, you know, land his presidency and even his post-presidency, do a lot of things that would enhance his popularity, and yet still to this day, he's probably a jump ball possibility of being elected again, and again, people know exactly who he is. again, it's not like he's being, you know, the con -- he's very in some ways, fundamentally a con man as has been pointed out many times, but again, it's all very up front. so yeah. i mean, this is our country right now, at least a good portion of them and that's why i started with, that's not who we are question that we have been scolded with or at least maybe, you know, comforted with for a long time now. >> you know, mark, one of the most interesting aspects of the whole trump phenomenon is, and you just pointed it out, he's not hiding. he's not hiding anything at all, and you live in a town, and we all live in certain areas, and no certain people -- a lot of people who come up to you and eventually the conversation might get around to trump, and the question they pose to you is, you know, what is -- who are these people who vote for him, and when you tell them the truth of i -- when you say, they're your neighbors, they are people you work alongside with, and i've come to the conclusion over the past several years that maybe we focus in the media, focus too much on trump, and not enough on the legitimate human beings, and there were many people who vote for trump who were absolutely otherwise normal, and they lead normal lives and have normal families. what's their beef? who are they? we don't focus enough on those people, and there are a lot of them. >> there are, and i think one thing i would point out is that, yes, there are our neighbors sort of figuratively in some ways, but, you know, when you live in sort of blue bubbles or red bubbles, i mean, the fact is a lot of your neighbors will vote exactly like you, i mean, physically. there are very few swing districts, swing neighborhoods left in this country for a lot of reasons, and that extends to the online world and the media silos that we choose for ourselves. the fact is it's entirely possible, you know, in a lot of -- in a lot of big cities on the coasts, or if you are, you know, in a rural area to sort of go long stretches of time without ever dealing with someone on the other side, and i think one of the sort of realities of the trump years is that it used to be a lot more possible for kind of garden variety republicans and garden variety of democrats as much as there was a thing, to interact and it's, like, okay. we're on both sides or and we're unsure. we have different views but we can get along. there's shirts and skins, but at this point, a lot of trump supporters and non-trump supporters make some pretty black and white value judgments on the other side and don't want to deal with each other. not only do you not have to deal with people so much on the other side on a day-to-day basis, but you recoil at the idea of it. if you look at surveys of how people view finding a spouse or something, it's almost quite often, the strongest indicator -- or the strongest prejudice people have is i'm not going to sanction to anyone on the other side, you know, going off with my kids. so that's i think a new reality we're in in the trump world. >> the piece is online now for the new special issue. mark leibovich. thank you so much for coming on the show this morning. >> thanks, mika. still ahead on "morning joe," hunter biden is indicted by a california grand jury. we'll go over the new legal trouble faced by the president's son. plus, the latest out of donald trump's civil fraud trial after the former president voluntarily spent his day in court while complaining about being forced off the campaign trail when he didn't have to be there. you're watching "morning joe." 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[speaker continues in the background] the network with 24/7 built-in security. chip? at&t business. the power goes out, and we still have wifi to do our homework. and that's a good thing? great in my book. who are you? no power? no problem. introducing storm-ready wifi. now you can stay reliably connected through power outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up. plus, now through december 31st, eligible xfinity rewards members can get 25% off a storm ready wifi device. former president trump was in the courtroom yesterday as his defense team presented in the new york $250 million civil fraud trial. his lawyers interviewed an accounting expert who said the case against the trump organization was baseless. the new york attorney general accuses trump's namesake company of filing false financial statements in order to receive favorable bank deals. the judge presiding over the case has already ruled that the trump organization committed fraud and dissolved some of trump's businesses as a result. yesterday a panel of state appellate division judges paused that decision. that means the stay, the attorney general's office previously agreed on would remain in place until the full court hears and rules on trump's appeal. that likely won't come until next year after the fraud trial is over. trump is scheduled to testify for his defense on monday. willie? >> joining us now, former litigator, lisa ruben. she was in the courtroom yesterday. great to see you. we'll hear from the defendant himself on monday with some testimony, but tell us about what you saw yesterday. the trump team bringing in an expert, a tax attorney who said effectively as defense teams will find someone to say for them from time to time, what he did wasn't so bad actually. >> yeah. an accounting professor at the nyu school of business gave all the testimony that trump could have dreamed of. he essentially said there was nothing wrong with the financial statements in reviewing them for every year between 2011 and 2021. he found no fraud, no gap violations. those are the accounting standards that govern how the financial statements have to be presented. he also said that they contained a warning to anybody reading them to do your own diligence, and he compared it to the surgery general's warning on a box of cigarettes. if i were the trump organization, for example, you might not want to be compared to a health hazard, but they seemed to welcome that comparison, and then he said that deutsche bank did do its due diligence. he went through their credit reports and showed where they had data that wouldn't have been evident to them through the financial statements alone and drew from that, the fact that deutsche bank must have asked for and got more information from the trump organization that allowed them to come to the conclusion he was credit-worthy. >> people tend to lose track of it all. you are our eyes inside the courtroom. as he takes the stand on monday, what does this case look like? how's it going for him right now? >> i don't think it's going particularly well. let me resist your question to one extent. i'm not positive donald trump is going to testify. i can tell you looking at you here, i know donald trump wants to testify, but his lawyers desperately wanted to lift the gag order that's still in place. they weren't able to do so. they asked the judge to pause the trial. he would not do so, and they told me to my face the day before, they weren't going to ask him that because they knew how it was going to go. that signals to me they are afraid of having their client on the stand and inches away from that principal law clerk he can't talk about when he testifies. he didn't answer any questions in the hallways. he speechified. he takes a little bit here or there, but our folks in the hallway who follow him on the campaign trail said he was disciplined in the sense that while he attacked and gave his usual talking points, he would not engage with the press corps ensemble in the hallway. i'll believe he takes the stand when he does. >> let's talk about the appeal he filed in the election interference case, an effort to stall. >> yep. >> it's an appeal that could find its way all the way to the supreme court, but in interim, they're asking, hey. all the deadlines on this case should freeze until we get a resolution there. give us your assessment of that tactic, and do you think it could be successful? >> i think it's a really interesting application and more interesting than it was last week. that's because a d.c. circuit panel decided last week in a different january 6th constellation of cases, people brought forward injured, that those immunity issues have to be resolved before the discovery in the case. this is a criminal case. donald trump got all the discovery that the justice department had for the most part on day one of that trial -- sorry. day one of that case after indictment, and he's been taing advantage of that. i'm not sure that carries water. some will say too little, too late. you could have asked to stay this case. you didn't appeal that then. we'll go forward. >> a lot going on with donald trump. meanwhile, hunter biden is face a legal challenge this morning after he was indicted on nine tax-related charges. the new 56-page indictment was filed yesterday by david weiss in federal court in los angeles, and includes three felony counts. it alleges the president's son failed to pay taxes, failed to file, evaded an assessment and filed a fraudulent form. it says, the defendant spent millions of dollars on an extravagant lifestyle. they responded saying, quote, if hunter's last name was anything other than biden, the charges in delaware and now california would not have been brought. he paid his taxes in full more than two years ago. if convicted, hunter biden could face a maximum of 17 years in prison. so there's a lot of detail in this filing, lisa, about what hunter biden did spend the money on. a lavish lifestyle indeed, often funded by other people. first, let's establish the taxes were repaid, correct? >> they were. >> maybe not by him specifically. maybe got some help, but they were repaid. >> correct, and not necessarily in a timely manner either, right? it took several years for them to be paid, but as far as i understand all of hunter's tax liability has been cleared. >> this comes five months after that deal fell apart. >> right. >> hunter biden thought he was going to cut a deal and avoid prosecution. that falls apart and now here we are. how serious are these charges and how much trouble is he in? >> they're very serious charges and willie, you know in the district of delaware he's also facing those three charges on the gun. we've got 12 counts against him. calculations by our nbc news colleagues is he could serve a maximum of 17 years in prison on these charges alone. these are extremely serious charges and i should add that plea deal, at the time he cut the plea deal, tom winter and i sat at this table and said to the person anchoring, hey. other people would never have even been prosecuted for this, so as to reach a plea deal. so the fact we're at a place that post-plea deal he's facing even more serious charges shows me that maybe there is a two-tiered system of justice, but it doesn't go the way donald trump thinks it does. coming up, the ukrainian minister of foreign affairs is our guest this morning. as negotiations continue in the senate on an aid package that includes critical funding for the war torn country. meanwhile, house republicans are one step closer to a vote on an impeachment inquiry into president biden. we'll talk about that more with democratic congressman ro khanna. "morning joe" is coming right back. o khanna "morning joe" is coming right back honey. ooh, there's more. chewy's prices were so great. you don't need to explain yourself, linda. keep on saving. pet's aren't just pets. they're more. well, i hope i got a leaf blower this year. you got a turtleneck. unwrap the excitement with deals up to 40% off at chewy. i was stuck. unresolved depression symptoms were in my way. i needed more from my antidepressant. vraylar helped give it a lift. adding vraylar to an antidepressant... is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms... ...better than an antidepressant alone. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. report fever, stiff muscles, or confusion, as these may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. high blood sugar, which can lead to coma or death, weight gain, and high cholesterol may occur. movement dysfunction and restlessness are common side effects. stomach and sleep issues, dizziness, increased appetite, and fatigue are also common. side effects may not appear for several weeks. i didn't have to change my treatment. i just gave it a lift. ask about vraylar and learn how abbvie could help you save. ♪i'm hearing different ways for me to screen for colon cancer.♪ ♪it's time to use my voice,♪ ♪i've got a choice, more than one answer.♪ ♪i sat down with my doc.♪ we had a talk. ♪knew just what to say.♪ ♪i asked for cologuard and did it my way.♪ cologuard is a one-of-a kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45 plus at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. ♪i did it my way!♪ ♪ if there's pain when you try to poo ♪ ♪ and going sometimes feels like you ♪ ♪ pushed through a pineapple or two ♪ ♪ colace is the brand you need ♪ ♪ to soften stools, we're all agreed ♪ ♪ #2 should be easy to do ♪ trust colace to soften stools with no stimulants for comfortable relief. my dry eye's made me a burning, stinging, 5-times-a-day,... ...makeup smearing drops user. i want another option that's not another drop. tyrvaya. it's not another drop. it's the first and only nasal spray for dry eye. tyrvaya treats the signs and symptoms of dry eye disease fast by helping your body produce its own real tears. common side effects include sneezing, cough, and throat and nose irritation. relying only on drops? not me. my own real tears are my relief. ask your eye doctor about tyrvaya. ♪♪ bipartisan talks resumed in the senate yesterday about a possible deal to increase southern border funding. a democratic source familiar with negotiations tells nbc news that although, quote, there is still a lot of daylight between the two sides, they are back at the table. the bill being discussed would include funding for the border as well as israel and ukraine. last week's negotiations broke down after democrats accused republicans of insisting on, quote, extreme policies at the border, but in remarks on wednesday, president biden urged both sides to keep talking, a message that was well received by the lead republican negotiator. >> i am willing to make significant promises on the border. we need to fix the broken border system. it is broken. >> were the president's comments yesterday helpful to negotiations? >> sure. the president made it very clear obviously that, you know, he sees the problem at the border. he wants to be able to do it. the white house made a very clear statement. let's get something resolved. ukraine is too important. it was helpful for him to make that statement and i reciprocate it back to the white house. i hear you. >> let's bring in democratic member of the house oversight committee, congressman ro khanna of california. a lot to talk with you about, and these negotiations are happening over in the senate, but overall, what is the hope for funding for aid to israel and ukraine getting through? >> well, we hope the senate sends us something. unfortunately in the house, we're busy debating and voting on trivial matters as opposed to what the american people want. yesterday, we voted on whether to censure jamal bowman for pulling a fire alarm, when the people want us to vote on israel, ukraine, vote on taiwan, and they want us to have a budget and that's not the agenda of the house republicans. it's unserious. >> and certainly we heard yesterday, and i got some new reporting, congressman, about how senators from both sides of the aisle are really calling for the white house to take a more active role in those negotiations. since that first few times of the president's time in office, they've taken a handsoff approach and letting congress sort it out, and now they're hoping the president will come in and act as a closer as you mentioned. the clock is ticking towards the end of the year, and also government funding expiring. i wanted to ask you in particular, there have been a lot of democrats, progressive democrats really reluctant to put in a lot of these measures at the border, fearful they evoke some of the policies put in place by donald trump. what do you think is an acceptable amount of border security? is what they're talking about too far? >> we absolutely need border security, but the biggest thing we need is more border agents and immigration judges and processing folks on the border. here's what republicans are talking about. they want to eliminate parole. that's what the president used to have ukrainian refugees come into the united states. parole is what he has used to have afghani refugee who is helped our troops in afghanistan come to the united states. parole is something every president has used. to take that away is to undermine our fundamental values. so they are so extreme and it's actually not going to solve the issues at the border. coming up, as the fight rages against russia, we'll talk to ukraine's top diplomat and close adviser to president zelenskyy. the country's foreign minister is our guest next on "morning joe." but then i figured it's just walking, right? 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( ♪♪ ) growing up, hughes and cowboys were one and the same. my daddy's a cowboy. i'm a cowboy and i'm raising a cowgirl. and discovering that my family come from farmers, for generations. this life is in our blood. and we ain't stopping no time soon. give the gift of family heritage with ancestry. that first time you take a step back. i made that. with your very own online store. i sold that. and you can manage it all in one place. i built this. and it was easy, with a partner that puts you first. godaddy. ♪♪ next week, a key summit of eu nations will take place where a decision is expected to be made regarding ukraine's attempt to enter the union. last night in paris, french president emanuel macron hosted the prime minister of hungary in a bid to bring himboard in support of ukraine's membership. he has previously voiced concerns about ukraine joining the eu. joining us now from kyiv is the ukrainian minister of foreign affairs. it is very good to have you with us this morning. i guess first of all, what's your response to the concerns about ukraine joining the eu? >> well, ukraine's membership in the european union is in the best interest of hungary because i doubt the prime minister would like to see russia as or a russia-controlled country as its neighbor. the membership of ukraine in the eu means for prosperity and more safety for the entirety of europe and the entire democratic community in the world, and hungary must be interested in that. >> yeah, and that russian neighbor, that president putin has just announced he's seeking to extend his power into the next few years, extend his presidential term. he's already been in power for two decades. can you talk about the situation on the battlefield? how ukrainian troops are doing against this russian invasion so far right now? >> well, after securing a major victory in the black sea where ukraine succeeded in pushing back russian black sea fleet to the eastern coast of russia, and that allowed us to restore our expert quarters and expert grain and other materials to the world market. all eyes are on the land front line, and the situation there is different than the spot we are looking at. in some places, ukrainian forces advance. in other places like near a city in russia, it's trying to occupy this city. they're throwing thousands of people into the battle. we successfully defend the city, and we understand that russia is trying to secure a propaganda victory for itself at any cost. they don't care about their own human lives. they care only for the success to report to the people of russia at the cost of the lives of the people of russia. this is more or less the situation, and of course, air raid attacks continue. drones, iranian drones, russian missiles. we had one -- we had another attack this morning actually, but our air defense system is repelling these attacks and i would like to thank the american people and the united states for providing us with necessary air defense systems and the intercepters. coming up, the white house will be watching the november jobs report. just crossing this hour, stephanie rule brings us this information, and what it says about the state of the u.s. economy. 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>> the law says if you're at risk of death or severe risk of substantial bodily function. do you know what that means? how close to that is close enough? all i know is that the state of texas didn't think that kate was close enough, but a judge did. >> the texas attorney general's office argued during the hearing that kate's condition did not meet all the elements for the abortion exceptions. it still remains to be seen if the attorney general's office will try to find an avenue to reverse the emergency order. they did send aetter to kate's doctors warning them that the order will not insulate hospitals, doctors or anyone else from civil or criminal liability for violating texas's criminal abortion laws. >> unbelievable. this is where we are, joyce, where people are making decisions they know nothing about. this woman, we know that her life is in danger. we know she's enduring a lot of pain. also the mental anguish and the possibility of ever being able to have a baby again. that's what's at stake here. and yet it's the texas attorney general who's going to push this again and try and reverse it? i need to understand what's wrong with that man, number one. legally, what are the implications here? >> so this is like the commercials that we've been seeing where there's a couple in their bedroom and all of a sudden an old white guy shows up and says i'm your republican congressman and i'm here to tell you what you can do. this is what activists mean when they say abortion is health care. for this young woman who is the mother of two children who says she has always wanted a large family, this decision will undoubtedly impact whether she can continue to have children in the future. she's told the scarring from a delivery if she carries this pregnancy to term might end her ability to bear children. who do we want making these decisions? do we want her and her husband and her doctor to make these decisions, or do we want ken paxton, the attorney general for texas, deciding her future? this case will go on appeal through the texas court system. the issue could end up in the u.s. supreme court. it's a pretty baseline american principal of law that laws shouldn't be so vague that we can't understand them. that's the risk here. texas has a formal exception for the mother's health, but when you've got the attorney general of the state threatening to criminally prosecute a doctor and to subject even her husband to civil liability if he helps her get an abortion, women don't have a meaningful right. it's ken paxton versus the court and the rule of law. >> that man right there thinks he knows better than doctors and also the mother, the husband, the family who are dealing with a tragedy, a baby they very much wanted, but at this point they need the abortion to stay alive for health care. abortion is health care. more and more americans know that and are worried about this. that's why the polls are showing more and more people very accepting of the health care procedure. you mentioned another case. what's the potential this has other cases involved in collective action? >> it's a big question mark. this case and the court order specifically just is her case. the one you're referring to that's awaiting decision in the texas supreme court is made up of 20 women and two doctors. back in august, a district judge sided with them, saying the laws are not clear enough for doctors to excerpt. the attorney general's office immediately went for an appeal. that's what we're waiting on in the texas supreme court, whether that initial injunction will be upheld. kate's case is interesting, because it's also one of the cases that one of the 20 women in the texas supreme court's case also went through. it may or may not have an impact. >> joyce, i'm sure this is something that you talk about on the sister-in-law podcast. i'm wondering where is our voice? where is the voice of women in these situations? we had a case in florida that was similar. we reported on a case where a woman was told just wait until you're bleeding out. this is crazy. is there any recourse on a national level that women have to push back against this barbaric set of laws that we have right now? >> so women's voice is their vote. we've seen women and their allies increasingly turn out to vote to protect abortion. states have begun to write protection into their constitutions. here's what the united states supreme court said in the dobbs decision when it reversed roe v wade. it said we're going to leave this issue up to each state, so our voice exists in our state legislatures, and women will have to insist that their lives, that their decisionmaking processes deserve protection from their legislatures and their attorneys general. it's awfully difficult to think we're in this position in 2023. >> it's unbelievable. former u.s. attorney joyce vance, thank you. and "morning joe" reporter daniella pierre bravo, thank you. it's 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. jonathan lemire back with us. we have john heilemann and adrian elrod. she recently left the administration where she was the government affairs director for the commerce department's chips for america program. she's now back with us. let's get some analysis as we get to the breaking economic news. the u.s. economy added 199,000 jobs last month. that's slightly more than economists expected. for more, let's bring in dom chu and stephanie ruhle. what do you make of the numbers? >> the numbers are largely as expected. you pointed out just a slightly hotter than expected number here. the 199,000 estimate is just about in line with expectations. it's much better than the 150,000 we saw back in october. the unemployment rate surprisingly ticks lower to 3.7%. it was 3.9% back in october. average hourly earnings, on a month over month basis they come in .04 higher. that was slightly hotter than economy economyists were looking for. it counts those people marginally attached to the labor force, those working part-time jobs to bridge the gap, that ticked lower to 6.7%. the labor force participation rate, the number of people who are part of the labor force actually ticked higher to 62% 62%, the highest since 2020. also the last two months had their total counts revised lower by roughly 35,000 jobs. as to where the jobs are being created in america, health care gained around 77,000. the government industries gained 49,000. manufacturing gained 28,000. leisure and hospitality gained 40,000. the only notable sector with a marked decline was in retail, which lost 38,000 jobs. there is your recap, mika, about where the state of the current jobs market is. i will also point out that in response to this, financial markets did sell off on some of this and we saw interest rates tick higher because of a hotter than expected jobs report might lead the fed to be more aggressive or hold the line on rates longer. >> interesting. stephanie ruhle, what do you make of these numbers? >> it's not a lot of mornings that when you think about jay powell, he's probably smiling. today would be one of them. if you said a year and a half ago, what can we do to safely cool this economy but not tip ourselves into recession, we're in a year and a half of rate hikes. we're seeing that soft landing. it is a positive across the board, a really good report. >> so stephanie, how would you grade this report? there's a lot of bragging on the economy going on. there's great data out there. as you've been reporting on a lot, there's a sense that it's not actually getting to people, especially young people trying to buy a house or going to the grocery store or at the gas pump. when does this start to balance out, or does it? >> it's a really good question. we have all of this good data. yet if you and i went out to dinner tonight, i guarantee at the end of our meal we'd be going look at this bill, it's so expensive, or complaining about how hard it is to buy a house or what our rent is. because rates have gone up, that meant to run and operate a business it started to cost more. when are prices going to go down? we don't necessarily want prices to go down, because if prices go down that's showing a deflationary environment. things will balance out. there's a good chance jay powell could start to cut rates next year, which would be a positive. this is a complicated economic story for the biden administration to tell. people need to remember where we came from three years ago, what was happening in the economy with covid. we are coming out of covid. it is a net positive. people thought a year ago we'd be deep in recession. while we might not be thrilled with prices or how difficult it is to buy a house or a car, it's a heck of a lot better than what we thought it would be. >> it's true. we'll talk to adrian about the politics of this. when it comes to getting out of covid, we're not there yet. look at the news that's come out recently about a huge educational lag. kids are not where they should be because of the effects of covid. can you make that parallel to the economy where things have not caught up yet? how would you describe the recovery from covid as it pertains to the numbers we see today versus the way people are feeling? >> this idea that there's been an uneven recovery in the u.s. economy since the kind of maybe onset of covid and certainly since the recovery from. we've seen a lot of people see their assets go up in value. if you're a homeowner in the last three years, you're sitting on a lot of home equity because prices have gone up so much. you may not be able to or want to sell that house. but there's this motion that the middle class and levels below have not participated as fully in this economic recovery. if you look at the balance of numbers with industries like child care, education, there is still an uneven recovery. meanwhile you look at business travel, leisure travel and hospitality. many of those industries have gotten close to pre-pandemic levels or even exceeded them. we're talking about airline operators, hotel operators talking about this idea that their business in many cases in certain geographies and industries is back to where it was pre-covid. this is an uneven process right now. this whole set of data over the last year or so has shown that we're in a transition phase. we've seen just as many positives as negatives. it's almost like a mini roller coaster. that seems to indicate that we could be in a changing trend at some point in the future. >> dom chu and stephanie ruhle, thank you. we'll be watching "the 11th hour" weeknights on msnbc. i'm thinking what would the advice be for the biden administration? there's a lot of bragging on the economy. there's a lot to brag in and about terms of what this president accomplished. you just served in the commerce department and you spent a year bragging about chips. well done. i almost feel like the advice would be to focus on the segment that we did before the jobs numbers came out, on abortion and on donald trump and on the economy say, yes, there are a lot of good signs there, we're still working on it, we're building on where we are. would you agree or would you brag on this economy if you were this administration right now. >> i think you're exactly right. steph made a really good point. when you look where we were three years ago going through covid, a lot of economists did predict we were going to be in a recession. these numbers are strong. they're strong regardless of the pandemic that we had three years ago. i think that the administration is obviously right to go out and talk about the four major economic bills that president biden was able to pass, several of those bipartisan that helped sustain the economy and get us to where we are today. at the same time, you have to make it clear there is work to do. interest rates hopefully will continue to come down. they've been on a downward trajectory, which is very positive. we also have to talk about how some of the jobs this administration is creating through the chips and science act, a lot of those jobs are manufacturing jobs that once we start getting some of these factories built are going to be created. it's hard to tell people right now who are still struggling in this economy be patient, good jobs are to come. there is a way to strike the balance on both. the economy is strong for a lot of people. there are measures this administration has put in place to get us to a better place very soon. of course, abortion, the extremist views of donald trump who appears to be the nominee for the republican party, you run on those contrast issues and lift up the parts of the economy that are strong and make it clear you have a plan to address the issues americans are still struggling with, high food prices, inflation issues. those challenges that a lot of americans are facing are going to continue to come down. we're trending in the right direction. just really restoing faith in making sure americans understand what the president has done and there is a lot of work to do. >> this election is going to be fought on a number of fronts. trump's comments about being a dictator has affirmed the biden administration's decision to put democracy at the center of this election. let's stick to the economy, inflation has come down, but it's still pretty high. i think people are still really feeling that. i think that's sort of been overlooked in some of the analysis in the last couple of months as to why poll after poll shows the fundamentals of the economy are pretty good, but voters feel lousy about it. >> one of the things you learn over decades in politics is you can't talk someone out of how they feel. we've had this consistent sense of people saying the economy doesn't feel good to me. going and telling them, no, we've done a lot, those are real accomplishments. some of this economic news is good news, but the inflation thing has been the problem from the outset for the administration. it is the case that if you drive around america still, man, it's still expensive to fill up your tank, the price of food are things that the rare economic number that affects everybody at every income level everywhere in the country. the unemployment rate goes down. that's good. but most people already had jobs. some extra people get jobs, that's good, but it doesn't change the overall picture. what's driving anxiety are things like high interest rates, expensive to get a mortgage and buy eggs and fill up your car. those are things the administration has limited ability to change in a dramatic way. if the bank could start to lower interest rates over the next year and you see inflation continue on the path it's on but it's going to have to go a little faster, the administration could end up in that place where there's a soft landing, but those are not something joe biden could do something about directly. those are out of his control. you have to talk about donald trump. >> this is what i was talking with dom about, about sort of the aftereffects of covid. if you can get a mortgage, can you find a house? there aren't any houses for people. and if there are any, you can't afford them. and the rent is high. a lot of it is affecteffects of shifts in our economy post covid. it's still shaking out. i wouldn't bank on the economy if i were a republican or democrat in terms of something to brag on, because it's going to take a few years. >> i agree. that's one of the great unfairnesses of politics. you get credit when you're president for a lot of things you don't do economically. sometimes where you have a big structural trauma like covid that takes years to shake out, it's not joe biden's fault, but he's going to get blamed for it. you get blamed for stuff you didn't cause. that's kind of the bind they're in and why a lot of this stuff is going to come down to basically what lemire has been talking about which is you're going to have to make the point trump poses to democracy. house republicans appear to be one step closer to formal launching an impeachment inquiry into president biden. their probe is driven by three republican-led house committees. it would help the committees enforce subpoenas and allow the chairs to open hearings in their investigation into the biden family. the house is expected to vote on the resolution next week. house speaker mike johnson said he believes republicans have the votes to approve the resolution. a white house spokesperson called the resolution, quote, a baseless stunt not rooted in fact or reality but in extreme house republicans' desire to abuse their power to smear president biden. i could be wrong, but i don't think it looks good or feels good to american voters to see republicans just breathlessly going after hunter biden in any way, shape or form they can. hunter has made mistakes in his life. no one's denying that. but i just don't know if it's having the effect they want. >> there are some americans who recoil at the idea of beating up someone in the throes of addiction. he's going to have his day in court. we'll see what happens there. hunter biden was never in the white house. he's not running for office. this is a false equivalency being set up by republicans because they want donald trump to not be the only candidate next year facing impeachment. they're trying to create this false equivalency. there's a real risk here. some republicans have privately told me this could backfire and be a gift to the bidens. >> i think it is a gift for joe biden. this is a briar patch the administration would love to be thrown in. congress doesn't matter in a general election. but the level of dysfunction and incompetence and the mccarthy drama, it's the thing that's so big that the impression that republicans are not up to the job, not able to do the one body of government that they control, they're not able to get it done. they turn after all of that rather than focusing on we've had a rough few months and we look like clowns. let's focus on getting the president's business done. this allows the white house and democrats to look over and say, hey, remember when we told you donald trump was going to imperil democracy, you want those guys to be his primary henchmen running the legislative branch? it's a huge gift for joe biden. >> incredibly painful for joe biden. i think a lot of people out there are fathers and have family members who have struggled. again, hunter biden has written a book about the laws he's broken and the things he's done. it's not like they're trying to hide something. secondly, i think this is the part that makes people cringe. this is joe biden's remaining son. are you kidding me? they're rabid. >> yeah. it's going to backfire. i too have talked to a lot of republicans who work on the hill who are very concerned about this decision by comer and speaker johnson to go in this direction. all we have to do is look back historically at what happened in 1996 with president clinton and those impeachment proceedings. it was not an effective strategy. it will not be as effective strategy here. we talked about the economy and how not every single american is feeling some of these strong can economic numbers we're seeing. republicans are focused on trying to impeach president biden for literally nothing and not focusing on what they consider to be the needs of the american people. the contrast could not be more dramatic. i think president biden and the administration is very smart to effectively forge ahead and really focus on not only just talking about the policies they have passed, which are historic. if you look at the four major economic bills president biden got passed, that is more than any president has done since fdr. you talk about your achievements and the work you're doing to improve the lives of american people and track that with the dangers of former president trump and the priorities of this congress. it's quite a contrast. coming up on "morning joe," congress has opened an investigation into three top universities over testimony this week at a house hearing about anti-semitism on campus. we'll have details on the growing backlash. plus, the latest out of upstate new york after an alarming incident outside a synagogue. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're replacing me? 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charges for firing a gun outside a synagogue in upstate new york hours before the start of hanukkah yesterday afternoon. nbc news correspondent stephanie gosk has the details. >> reporter: just hours before the start of hanukkah, at least two shots fired outside a temple in albany, new york, yesterday. police arresting a 28-year-old and charging him federally with illegal possession of a firearm. the case is being investigated as a potential hate crime. >> we were told by responding officers that he made a comment "free palestine." >> reporter: jewish students on college campuses also concerned for their safety. at the university of pennsylvania president liz mcgill is under fire following her comments at this week's anti-semitism hearing on capitol hill, where she and the president of harvard and m.i.t. testified for hours, each condemning anti-semitism while attempting to embrace the importance of free speech. but with exchanges with new york common elise stephanic. >> if speech becomes conduct, it's harassment. calling for the genocide of jews violates harvard's code of conduct, correct. >> again, it depends on the context. >> it does not depend on the context. >> reporter: the white house weighing in after the hearing. >> we have a responsibility to speak and act with moral clarity. liz mcgill failed to meet that simple test. >> reporter: president mcgill attempting to clarify her comments. >> to call for genocide of jewish people is a call to some of the most terrible violence human beings can perpetrate. it's evil, plain and simple. >> reporter: harvard's president also writing calls for genocide of any group are vile, adding they have no place at harvard. >> meanwhile the house education committee has now opened an investigation into those three institutions with the panel's chair republican congresswoman virginia fox ofnorth carolina criticizing them of failing to tackle anti-semitism on their campuses. i want to start there. it seems to me you advise companies on issues like this and others. it seems to me like these university presidents were missing the moral clarity of the moment. they were answering the question about what is in their code of conduct. so they may have been answering the question correctly, but they needed to add the moral clarity of their own knowledge of the state of affairs of today. for example, in our code of conduct, it might actually be allowed in certain contexts, but given the events of the last two months, i'm going to call for a thorough review of our code of conduct and changes might need to be made. how hard is that? who is the person prepping them for this hearing, number one? and number two, what would you advice have been? >> exactly. i think this is going to go down in some of the most terrible congressional testimony that i can remember. i mean, just absolutely awful, which is why both presidents wound up having to put out clarifying statements after the fact. the issue is not just about the free speech. it's also about the very real threat and danger jewish students on campus are facing. the failure to protect those students is an abject failure. i am hearing everywhere from friends and folks in the jewish community questioning whether their children should consider these schools going forward. there's been calls also to look at tackling anti-semitism at colleges and universities. there has definitely been some very serious questions. we know a bunch of law firms have rescinded offers for students that have participated in some of these virulently anti-semitism protests. there was a piece in the "wall street journal" yesterday where they interviewed a bunch of students who had been chanting "from the river to the sea." they found most of those students didn't know which river or which sea and actually had no idea who the first president of israel was, thought it was yasser arafat. there's a real danger to jewish students on campus who feel threatened and unsafe. >> thank you, tiktok, for that. i saying please don't get your news from tiktok. you have some polls out in terms of what's most important to women in the run-up to the presidential election. >> this builds perfectly off of the conversation you were just having. there's no question that the economy remains a critical issue. the cost of living in our overall polls for women voters were tied for voters with abortionoverall. for democratic voters, it is not a top issue. for democratic women, the top issues are abortion and guns and cost of living is number three. that is also true for independt women where you really see the difference is among republican women who are putting cost of living at a higher level and also young voters, young women put cost of living as one of their top issues. when you look at the durability artion as the top issue for democratic women voters who are the engine of democrac turnout and have made an enormous difference in the last three cycles, i think it's really important to look at that. cost of livings real, but it's much less significant of an issue for democratic women. >> i think that cost of living is a warning to democrats on how to their words about the economy carefully. this abortion issue, let me tell you something, it is going to cross the divide from women. i think men are going to vote on it as well. think about if you're a young woman in your 20s, 30s, 40s or 50s and you are thinking of trying to have a baby. you have to think of where you're going to live in order to make sure that you don't die if you have complications. i know people who are literally worried about where they live because they're going to have a baby. >> it's quite something. it's something that republicans completely underestimated in terms of the impact it would have on the elections. all you have to do is look at states like kansas, center right stat, ohio, that overwhelmingly passed ballot measures to protect women's rights to make decisions about their body. there are also efforts in multiple states going into 2024 to make sure that reproductive access is on the ballot. my home state of arkansas is trying to make sure there are measures on the ballot. i've got a lot of conservative friends from college. i went to school at tcu in ft. worth, texas. i have a lot of girlfriends who are trump voters. they're concerned about how abortion laws in texas are going to affect their families. they're very concerned about how this is going to impact their daughters' lives if they were to get pregnant or other issues pertaining to their friends who may have to have an abortion due to an extreme health issue. this is having an impact i think republicans did not consider. we also have to remember that donald trump got three supreme court justices on the supreme court that overturned roe v wade. that is something that you will see millions of dollars spent reminding voters that donald trump is responsible for this, the republican party is responsible for this. >> immigration for republican women is a top issue, maybe the top issue. talk about that a little bit. we talk about abortion a lot. it's obviously going to be an important issue, no question. the evidence is in how much turnout it drives. it's probably going to be more than we think. the immigration problem is a problem that the white house recognizes. that's begging for some kind of relief to address this problem. he understands it's kind of a sleeper issue. we don't talk about it as much on cable tv. for these republican women, it's really important. >> it is. i think we're going to see what happens especially when you look at the implications of the congressional races in new york. new york is a state that has dealt now with this massive influx of migrants from the border states. it's been a huge struggle for governor hochul. there's two critical races in new york this cycle. if immigration continues to be a big issue, that's going to be a problem for democrats. for the white house, there's a real question about their core voters. there is a huge swath of republican voters who are never going to cross over. the focus needs to be on independent women and core democratic women voters. since may when we polled this last time, democracy has also risen way up in terms of its importance. it came out at number four, especially for democratic women. i think that speaks to the relentless discussions happening on this network and elsewhere. there is real consciousness about the threats to democracy. it's a real issue on the republican side. those are the strategic questions. are republican women who care about immigration going to cross over to vote for democrats if joe biden gets an immigration bill? hard to imagine. ultimately the question to the white house is the message to their core folks they need to get out. >> suburban republican women who are alienated by donald trump, they need a permission slip to keep voting for joe biden. on the margin that might be in some of these close battleground states. >> there seems to be a little momentum right now for some sort of deal on the border because it is key to unlocking ukraine and israel funds. this ties to our conversation earlier in the show about how democracy has become a center piece of the biden reelection campaign. we heard the president and members of his staff seize upon what donald trump said this week about being dictator for a day. they know this is going to be a defining issue. we have learned a lesson from the last couple of elections, democracy and abortion, those are the two winning issues for democrats. >> those are the ones. ceo and cofounder of "all in together" lauren leader, thank you very much. great conversation. a quick look at headlines across the country. the mercury news reports california faces a $68 billion budget deficit due to a severe drop in tax revenues. spending cuts are feared as the governor has just over a month before he needs to propose the next state budget. the poughkeepsie leads with how flu infections are surging. usa today reports on how the veterinarian shortage in kentucky is critically impacting farmers and pet owners and could eventually harm the nation's food supply. 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[ speaking in a global language ] [ speaking in a global language ] the film was recently screened at the vatican for pope francis, who addressed the audience after the screening, leading a prayer and calling for peace. joining us is the film's producer and director. this film is a companion piece to his academy award nominated documentary "winter on fire, ukraine's fight for freedom." thank you so much for coming on the show to share this. i love the focus here on the ukrainian people. i remember when the war broke out, the former president of ukraine came on our show. he said that the ukrainian people are fighting and dying and losing everything for the safety of the world. can you talk about the strength and the resilience, but also the suffering of the ukrainian people? >> first of all, thank you for having me in. it's true. i saw the resilience and determination of these people to be free from the former soviet union and to be a part of the free and democratic society. witnessing this through the years after 2015 and leading to the full-scale invasion last year, i think i witnessed how people determined to stand the grounds for their motherland. they'd rather take a bullet into their face than submit to the russian empire. >> you started filming soon after russia began its invasion. i know you have some incredible footage of some of the attacks. you followed some of the ukrainian troops and first responders. tell us more about the access you had and some of the images. >> i think because of my knowledge how to have camera crew on the grounds of ukraine, i had already filmmaker there. the war started in 2014with the full-scale invasion, i called to my people on the ground. i immediately took my flight there and i went there to be on the ground by myself also. i literally initiated filming. for me, it was important as quick as possible to bring images to the world. they are fighting for us. i needed to educate the world. i needed also to show what's happens during these eight years was just forgotten war that was there. i wanted the world to know about this. i was afraid we are slowly distancing ourselves from this war and there will be again escalation of the events. >> you have a world historical event here that has been the subject of widespread news coverage for the last couple of years. people have been very focused on it. it ebbs and flows. americans and other people around the world have seen the footage, a lot of it horrific. what kind of reception did you get? it's always an important movie. but there's always this hill you have to get across, what are we going to see that's new? that question of fatigue that zelenskyy and others worry about in the west. >> what is interesting, the word fatigue is something russia tried to do since last year. i saw the reporting of a resilience foundation in u.k. where it says that war fatigue is an element that russia created through propaganda. it's interesting to know it's artificially created with the propaganda. networks don't want to show anything new about the war. they're feeling the world is tired of this war. you know, it is a dangerous thing to think, because at the end of the day the less we're aware of this war, the faster we can forget about this war and the faster it can escalate. i'm struggling with distribution. many of my friends who brought movies to the networks in the united states specifically, they're struggling with distribution. this is coming out on a self-distribution. it's lucky i can bring it to the world. but many great movies about ukraine and this war are not being seen at all. >> you have certainly developed >> yeah, adrian. >> you know, you have certainly developed an expertise and understanding of what the ukrainian people are facing each and every day given the fact that you were on the ground for so long making this documentary. what is your sense that their views would be -- or their thoughts would be if republicans in congress, the united states of america, do not fund, continue to fund this war in ukraine, what is the sense that you think that they may get if the united states ultimately is not continuing to fund the war in ukraine? >> first of all, i think we need to remind to our government about memorandum 1994 when america, when uk and when russia signed the memorandum in exchange for more safety in this world and i think we are responsible to protect ukraine by this agreement. i think we don't want to be seen as somebody who's not obeying by the agreement. so this we also need to remind. and secondary, their fighting the enemy, the enemy of the world. i think this need to be remind. i who witness how putin's operations, operating in the united states soil here in our home, i always thinking, hey, they're fighting our enemy so we need to support them. >> that's right. "freedom on fire: ukraine's fight for freedom" is available to stream on demand beginning on tuesday. it is worth a watch. director and producer, thank you so much for being on this morning, we appreciate it. thank you for doing this. >> thank you, thank you. and still ahead, it turns out this week's republican debate wasn't the final one before next month's iowa caucuses. we'll discuss how the added faceoffs could impact the race. e [dog barks] no it's just a bunny! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪ watch how easy it is to put on new hands free skechers slip-ins. i just step in and go. sitting? doesn't matter. i don't even have to touch them. ooo, gangsta. in a hurry? there's not a faster, easier way to put on shoes. they know a 10 when they see it. what causes a curve down there? who can treat this? stop typing, and start talking. it could be a medical condition called peyronie's disease, or pd. you're not alone, there is hope. find a specialized urologist who can diagnose and treat pd. visit makeapdplan.com today. the first time you connected your godaddy website and your store was also the first time you realized... well, we can do anything. cheesecake cookies? the chookie! manage all your sales from one place with a partner that always puts you first. 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[speaker continues in the background] the network with 24/7 built-in security. chip? at&t business. why are we the only birds heading this way? ♪ ♪ what is that? duck à l'orange. what's duck à l'orange? it's you, with l'orange on top. you know, a lot of these far right lunatics have this idea that the democratic party is run by lizard people. have you ever heard that. it always sounded insane to me until -- >> when i'm president this will never happen to our country ever again. i will keep the faith and i will finish the race, thank you and god bless you. i don't know men should be going into little girl's bathrooms. i think it's wrong. i think it's very, very important for the country that we get that done. >> no one can hear you. they can't hear you. >> buckle your seat belts, there's going to be a new sheriff in town. >> thank you. >> remember, ron, you are normal. you are not weird. you are 5'11". your suit is soft, and your shoes are grown up, big boy shoes. that's it. pretend you're listening to music, human music. good, check the phone, normal style, activate conversation mode. hello, you're busy, okay. love you, bye. [ bleep ] [ bleep ] [ bleep ], come on, ron, be normal. you are not a bobblehead with a dry mouth. you are a big boy with a wet mouth. activate head turn. activate toothless smile. good, very good. activate hand gesture, good, that's better. remember, you are ron desantis. you aren't just normal. you're also totally not weird. >> desantis, the late night comedy shows having some fun at ron desantis's expense. let's go around the table. they've added two more debates, jonathan lemire, pretty tight up against iowa too. >> there might even more. the networks are suggesting there could be debates before iowa and new hampshire. the wild card is they haven't been sanctioned yet by the rnc and john heilemann said there would be penalties if you would participate in those kind of debates. these candidates have nothing more to lose. >> activate hand gesture. >> don't lick your lips. >> my mouth is wet, my mouth is wet. no. >> ew. >> we're going to get to the end here, and the candidates who are trying to take out donald trump in these final days as you get towards iowa and new hampshire are going to get very desperate and they're going to want this time on television, and i think there's going to be -- the pressure is going to mount on them. it will be very hard for the rnc to hold the line, and they're going to sanction the candidates how exactly? when you get this deep into the race, it's very difficult to kind of -- the threat of eliminating a candidate from future debates is a real threat until you get to iowa and new hampshire, and then why not? >> yeah, adrienne, i feel like more debates means more gains potentially for nikki haley? >> yeah, absolutely. i mean, when you look at the holistic picture, what is the purpose of having more debates. it really truly is for the nomination, it really truly is a race to see who's going to get second, who is going to be the top person to challenge him. but these are just silly. i'm all for spirited debates to have constructive dialogue and conversations, but we're not getting that with these debate. >> i know you are, but what am i? that does it for us this morning, ana cabrera picks up the coverage in one minute. ragee

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