the prosecutor. providing a plethora of details about the days and weeks after the 2020 election. when donald trump and his allies tried anything and did everything they could to reverse what they knew was trump's election defeat. we're getting a look at what sidney powell and jenna ellis told prosecutors during the recessions. those are the meetings where defendants who take plea deals reveal any information that could be used against the other defendants in this case. which includes rudy giuliani and donald trump. former trump attorney general ellis descriing a chilling conversation with trump aid at a white house christmas party. >> i said something to him like i'm sorry that we haven't been able to do more. and i emphasized to him i thought that the claims and the ability to challenge the election results was essentially over because of the dismissal of the case from the the supreme court. he said to me in an excited tone, well, we don't care. we're not going to leave. i said, what do you mean? he said, well the boss, meaning president trump and everyone understood the boss, that's what we all called him, he said the boss is not going to leaf under any circumstances. we're just going to stay in power. and i said to him, it doesn't quite work that way you realize. he said, we don't care. >> we're not going to leave. we're just going to stay in power. that's what trump said. team trump. the statement deals a body blow to the notion that trump and his innermost circle believed that the election had had been one and then stolen from trump for trump and his allies, it was never about finding any voting fraud or voting irregulariies in the 2020 election. those are top lawyers admitting on tape she's not exactly an expert on elections. here's zid paul. >> did i know about election law, no, but i understand fraud. >> it wasn't any of that either. wow. we're also learning about a december 16th, 2020 oval office meeting that ties dth dpth to a key plank of fani willis' criminal enterprise. that's the use to disrupt the joint session of congress on january 6th. it's a meeting that was not detailed in the sprawling indictment that listed dozens of, quote, a acts of the conspiracy. "the washington post" reports this. chesebro recalled other trump advisers being in the room, quote, near the end of the photo-op, i had a back and forth with president trump on the matter of arizona came up, chesebro recalled to prosecutors, quote, i briefed him on what my understanding was of what was happening in arizona. chesebro told prosecutors that trump asked four or five questions that he summarized for trump in his november 18th memo to the campaign in which he called january 6th 2021 the real deadline for settling the state's electoral votes. though it was unclear whether trump reacted to his analysis. stunning new details, new evidence still coming in on the trump coup plot from allies that have flipped on the ex-president. that's where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. lead investigator for the january 6th committee is back with us. also joining us is the editor at large for the bull work, charlie sykes and carol lending. i'm looking for the gap between what you knew and the evidence that you were a able to develop on the select committee and what was revealed through the criminal prosecutions and criminal investigations. so your ae reaction to what you heard from paul and ellis and chesebro? >> a couple things significant. a as you said at the top, there was really never any serious effort to uncover voter fraud or any serious belief in its existence. it sounds very much like this was a political strategy from the beginning. generate fake electors, go to the room, state leg torts and state officials, the republican members of congress, that's the path forward. it doesn't really matter if we keep losing these claims. that is shocking. that's illegal. we got toward that, but this is more direct evidence. the other thing that comes through to me in all of these new debriefing tapes that are coming out is how much engaged the presidents was himself. a key fact for jack smith fani willis will be a personal involvement. he was briefed by chesebro directly on the fake electors plans. he's talking directly to sidney powell about these theories of election fraud, which are debunk. he is not a passive observer being advised by lawyers. he's engaged in discussions and controlling and understanding a plot. those are two significant things, very relevant in both case. >> federal prosecutor had for this question, trump has been charged with the civil rights era crime of denying the vote and their actual votes and the right to vote. it seems that knowing there was never any fraud goes a long way toward proving that trump intended to deny people their votes. >> yes, exactly right. if the civil rights charge requires mindful deprivation of a right, the fact that he disregards the actual evidence of fraud and moves straight to the political coup, those flanks in the multiprong to disrupt the joint session is very telling on his intent. the other thing that powell indicates very directly is she was present or repeated explanations to the president. again, go back to bill barr's analogy about the clown car. there are capable lawyers that had been with the president throughout his time. his campaign lawyers, even on the political side, yet he listens to or adopts the flawed reasoning of people like the clown car. sydney paul, jenna ellis, who is not far out of law school had no experience. these are the people on which he's going to claim to rely when the pros in the room are continually telling him in the presence of the clown car all significant evidence of his understanding and his intent. >> in the presence of the clown car, you said what? let me play some of the testimony. we have that on tape. >> were you ever around when someone, anyone told donald trump that he lost the election? >> oh, yeah. >> who? >> pat cipollone, derek lions, all thought he had lost. >> what was president trump's reaction when the advisers would say he lost? >> it was like they would say that and walk out. this is what i deal with all the time. >>. >> even if her she seems to be trying to flip, she's pruing that all the time trump was with the reality that he lost the election. >> derek lions, is a lawyer, those are people who were his lieutenants, trusted but his side throughout. they are telling him the truth. you lost. he continues to spout these ridiculous theories of election fraud, which no one believed. the game here is political solution, not a legal one to stay in power. very relevant. we didn't get it. all those witnesses said privilege couldn't pelt them. we didn't have the charging authority. so this is all kind of consistent with with what we found but beyond direct evidence as we had circumstantial. >> this is huge. and this is the kind of evidence that the individuals that refused to or didn't refuse to cooperate, they decided to exercise the amendment rights when they were before the congressional probe. this is one of those ways that nonlawyers can understand how criminal proceeding is different. it's yielded this tsunami of new information. and i think to tim's first point, it shows that trump's hands were on the steering wheel of the real minutia of the fake electors plot and the are recruiting of state officials at the peak of covid to come and be a part of the fake elector slot. let me read this. this is from the "washington post" reporting. ex-trump allies detail efforts to overturn election in georgia plea videos. he backed three rooms. and offered one to james, the former wisconsin judge leading the trump campaign's legal efforts to challenge the wisconsin results. chesebro told probation reports when he realized he was in washington, he asked him to come meet a courier who was flying with documents. the plan was to get them to the staff of wisconsin senator ron john, who would hand them to pence for the counting of electoral college votes. a lot of this happens. trump put this is in motion and ron johnson is over there on january 6th trying to hand off his bs slates to pence. it's amazing how if you reverse engineer it, trump had his hands on all of this intricate plotting. >> not to draw your metaphor too broadly, but the clown car, the president has his hands on a lot of clown car steering wheels all at the same time. i don't disagree with the premise that there was an increasing view that the only solution was going to be political. but trump has his hands on multiple steering wheels during this critical time. the dates are so helpful and interesting. it's the plea discussion that these witnesses against trump provide. let's put a couple on the board. december 19 is the day of that christmas party or even jenna ellis, who has pushed a lot of flawed fraud allegations and flawed illegal theories up to this point to try to help her president stay in office. even she is flum moxed when their right-hand aid says, the boss just wants to stay in office. we're going to stay. we don't care that we lost to the supreme court. we're going to stay. so december '19 is important because for multiple days after that period, donald trump is calling his acting attorney general, he's essentially booted bill barr out of the department of justice, he's left on his own power, but the has indicated he's fed up with his assessment that there is no legitimate fraud that would change the outcome of the election. sorry, it's bsp you lost. so now from this point on, donald trump is calling his acting attorney general pestering him every single day, something we learned from tim's work, asking, demanding, insisting, find the fraud. find the fraud. i have some other examples i want to bring back to you. i have some other examples i'd like to resurface with you that barr already told me were crap. but i'd like you to find them ask corroborate them. if you don't it, i have another idea for another acting attorney general. let's put another hand on another steering wheel and from great reporting, great congressional work, great follow-up reporting and the investigative process. another key date is january 3rd, 4th and 5th. when donald trump starts unleashing his twitter mega phone, to essentially turn his allies on mike pence, he starts telling people, okay, my last steering wheel move is to get pence to block the certification. and if i can't get him to do it, i want all of you to come to the capitol and help me push him and the rest of the republicans to do it. so the president is not giving up on niz of his cars getting to the finish line. >> it's so important and i'll put another hand on another steel steering wheel. this is the conversation from john carl. if he could have, he would have had the hands on all the steering wheels at the pentagon. he's irate when the military issues a statement saying the u.s. tear will not get involved in determining an american election. something that wouldn't even be newsworthy if the commander-in-chief had been enraged by it. but his hands are inside the pentagon. his hands are inside the justice department. his hands are inside dhs. his hands are deep insideing to point sidney powell to special counsel. he's basically one insurrection act or declaration of martial law away from doing what jenna lis said he wanted to do, which is we're not going to lee. >> as bill barr said, he was detached from reality. and that's what strike mess about this. the story about dan, this is hearsay. he's a notorious loud mouth. but it's an indication of the rabbit holes they were prepared to go, how little interest they in h in the transfer of power. and they are reporting that donald trump became obsessed with the notion that even after he left office he could be reinstated as president. so think about all of this together. it's easy to take these things separate and see them as sweet little incidents, but what you have here is a president of the united states who is detached from reality, completely uninterested in the constitutional norm of the peace transfer of power surrounding himself with people who were feeding him conspiracy theories, ignoring the voices in the room telling him the truth. and at the time, it was alarming. in retrospect, it's even more alarming to realizing that the president was trying all of this. how dangerous that particular moment was. >> i want to come back to you and ask if you think that these proffer sessions change any thinking about who the witnesses might be in the federal election case before the judge. >> i want to pause there for a moment because i'm not a prosecutor, as often i cover them. and so i think what i would rather answer is another version of your question and say, when i saw jenna ellis descriing in detail what was going on inside the white house, i thought that would be pretty useful for jack smith. if he doesn't already have it and know it. i thought that would be pretty useful to getting to the heart of how many people were sort of stunned, even the lieutenants, even the fringe lieutenants who were willing to sail on this crazy ship for a few weeks longer without real evidence of fraud, without real evidence of significant irregularirregularin they were taken aback by what the president, the boss and his top lieutenants were pushing forward. >> let me ask if t a different way. i think the thread that goes through michael cohen and that goes through all of the folks who pleaded guilty until they were pardoned, we have this sense from the outside that the bar is higher for trump. they must have so much evidence to take these steps. it always bears out. these are the trumpiest trump people. and in their proffer sessions, they reveal that in their dialogue, it's to think this was bonkers and unfounded and without predicate in any facts. there's nothing that erodes that narrative that it's always worse than it looks from the outside. >> absolutely. as a journalist, you wish all the time and we joke about it in the newsroom, you wish you had subpoena power buzz of the kinds of things you can learn when people are no longer talking in sound bytes and pr optics, but are speaking in self-interest to prevent themselves from going to jail. that is the power of our rule of law. and that is why people get into a lot of trouble when they lie to federal investigators. that is why we have a distinct country with a lot of importance placed on truth and honesty. and jenna ellis seems to be telling the truth in these videotaped remarks, because even she is taken aback by the gall of the president's plan. the boss is just going to stay in power, we don't care. >> it also explains trump's obsession with tearing down the rule of law for all the reasons you explained. thank you so much for starting us off today. stick around. fani willis opened up about the case she's prosecuting. we'll tell you about that next. also still to come, one of the biggest displays of solidarity for israel since the october 7th terrorist attack. tens of thousands of people including students and lawmakers and activists and families of those missing family members who have been taken hostage gathered at national mall today to condemn anti-semitism and call for the safe return of the more than 200 innocent civilian hostages. we'll have a live report ahead on that. plus the ex-president's dangerous call for his supporters to actually arrest the judge and the prosecutor in his civil fraud trial. what can be done about his rhetoric and make sure that those officials stay safe. we'll explain. later in the program, the big lie causing another big problem for fox news of the legal variety. the network has been hit with another lawsuit from another former reporter, who says he was fired after calling out their january 6th coverage. we'll have all those stories and more when we continue after a quick break. don't go anywhere. afr a quick break. don't go anywhere. salonpas, makers of powerful pain relief patches for 89 years... believes in continuous improvement... like rounded corners that resist 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urologist who can diagnose and treat pd. visit makeapdplan.com today. this probably in the country is a million people right now under investigation from everything from theft bishop lifting to murder. it would be a sad day if when you're under investigation for this shoplifting charge, you could run for city council and then the investigation would stop. that's foolishness. it's foolishness at any level. >> the district attorney fani willis today on the timing of a trial in her sprawling rico case against trump and his codefendants and how it collides against the 2024 election. we're back with tim and charlie. i want to say this carefully and respectfully. i think fani willis is proving the wisdom of her strategy base odden what we as a public are seeing in the guilty pleas. what with do you make of how it's unfolding so far? it's not an either or. there are different strategies. the strategy was get this adjudicated asap. the policy, they take action too close to an election. he got a late start. it reflects that. fani willis is not bound by that policy and has taken a broader approach. that's not a better right or wrong approach, it's a different approach. when you charge 19 people, people when they are faced with their liberty, their reputation, being on the line, they are going to have significant leverage to get them to cooperate. i think it will continue to happen. there's been three or four or five guilty pleas. i would expect as we get closer to the trial, there will be even more. and that will likely only strengthen the case. that's the benefit of a strauling rico indictment that brings in acts that occurred over a period of time by numerous people in different placess, even beyond georgia. so it's vindication of sorts, but it doesn't mean jack smith is wrong. they are just sort of different goals here. it really wants to get this adjudicated. the more the president keeps opening his mouth, the more likely it is and the more firm that date is. this is going to be resolved come march of next year. >> i want to read both of you a request for emergency protective order from fani willis today. it says this. the release of these confidential video recordings is clearly intended to intimidate witnesses in this case subjecting them to harassment and threats prior to trial. it constitutes indirect communication about the facts of this case with co-defendants and witnesses and obstructs the administration of justice in violation of the conditions of release imposed on each defendant. going forward, the state will not produce copies of video reportings to any defendant to prevent disclosure. defendants must come to the district attorney's office to review videos. they may take notes, but they will be prohibited from creating r