hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. it is raining news. we start with trump on the stand. it was short on substance, short on decourt um, and very short on truth. yet overflowing with deflection and grgrievance. donald trump's testimony in the $250 million civil fraud lawsuit in new york, though historic, felt familiar in some ways. except for one key difference. the arena. it was not a fox news sit-down or a meandering political speech, but donald trump sat down in a courtroom. and in courtrooms, facts and the rule of law still matter. they reign supreme. in that domain today, trump was repeatedly admonished by the man who will determine the fate of his business empire and brand and the future of the size of his family's wealth. time and time again the judge has used his authority as a judge to interrupt donald trump's everyone is out to get me, to run out the clock on testimony that was limit 20d a single day. that was today. the question was andet me ask again, became familiar refrains as trump sought to avoid providing actual answer. he tried to crank up the chaos. who raised his voice on more than one occasion and beseeched to control their client. in the end, today's testimony was hugely significant ands historic. not as it just relates to the case at hand, but after all, donald trump is set to stand trial four more times in criminal cases next year where juries will determine his fate. so this is just the beginning. and it's where we start today with some of our most favorite reporters. here with me is "new york times" investigations reporting russ is here. also joining us is top official at the justice department andrew weisman is here. also joining us is former lead investigator for the january 6th committee tim hait is with us. i'm not sure if this is an appropriate question. what did we learn today? >> we learned that donald trump, i think we already knew, but donald trump is not going to answer questions with facts. he's not going to actually address the issues on the table. we learned he remains hostile and angry about this whole thing. we learned you sort of separated himself from his sons in how they are addressing it. their approach, which seems like it might have been coached by lawyers, is to say we don't know anything. the lawyers over here, the accountants told us what to do. donald trump's defense is i didn't do anything wrong. i'm right, you are wrong, no matter what documents you have. everything i have is worth far more than that you say it is. he went back to mar-a-lago and sit this is not worth $18 million. that's the property assessment. those never match value. what he said was worth is in the hundreds of millions of dollars. today he said it was between $900 million and $1.8 billion. the attorney general said it was worth about $75 million. so he's going to just throw up more smoke and avoid the topic that's on the table. and try to deflect it. i don't know the goal in a all of that. >> let me try to understand where that might trip him up legally, and then we'll deal with what this was. ffz he's liable for financial fraud because in many instances, he did when you're describing. there are also instances he reduced them to pay less on certain policies or where that was advantageous, right? >> he does play it both ways. i'm not sure that all comes out in this case. he definitely does that for property tax assessments. he constantly undervalues properties and creates something different when he's presenting it to the bank. that can rise to a level of fraud, but i think the pattern in this is the inflated assets. sdwl what is his other than a perfect valuation, is there any other substance to his testimony today that could cause problems for his kids? >> that's an interesting question. i'm not sure. i mean, the problem with his kids' testimony is it doesn't match with what happened. they said we relied on our accountant. they provided information to the accountant. when the accountant learned what they had done, that they had withheld information on appraisals and withheld information about restrictions on how properties could be used, he quit. he quit that day. i think that's very strong evidence that that was a shock to that firm. stopped signing those statements, and they notified people the they can no longer stand behind him. his kids' testimony has its own problems. i don't understand what he's trying to say, how he's trying to say things work. he's trying to say i'm an expert in realize except for when it comes to valations. maybe i don't know anything about how that works. they do conflict, but i'm not it's in a way to rise to the level of a perjury charge or create other conflicts going forward. but it doesn't create a clean record if they are trying to make a presentation to ab appeal pelt lat court that the judge didn't decide this cases based on the facts. >> for the years of financing reports, the original fraud, the lies told about the inheritance and about making the money when he actually lost a lot of the money, how did today's testimony sort of either stand out or present itself as on brand with your body of reporting. >> that's the most frustrating part. he actually believe what is he says. hen presented this idea to the world that he didn't get money from his father. he got half a billion dollars from his father. he didn't lose that money. if you look at every era of his life, he lost the money he had there. it wasn't from things that were difficult calls. it was from this kind of thing. unforced errors, where he's making poor judgments and ignore ing the advice of people around him, ignoring the promises he's made to lenders. and he runs things into the ground. and then just as he's laying with nowhere to go in the early 2000s, mark bernett shows up and makes him a star and funnels another half a billion dollars to him. that allows him to create more. i want to ask you both questions first as people who investigated trump enterprises. was there anything about how he presented on the stand that made you wish you'd had either a live or taped deposition with the president of the united states? >> yeah, absolutely. the select committee issued a subpoena. the conventional wisdom is he would never come. but there was a fair number of folks on the other side who thought the hubris would smoke him out or have him take advantage of the opportunity, particularly given the level of attention that the committee was getting that beckened him to get toengs. our thought was let him talk. about what happened on january 6th and almost anything he said would be favorable. we obviously didn't get that opportunity. so the only other thing that strikes me about today in looking ahead to the criminal cases or looking back to what we did is that i'm just not expecting at all sort of acknowledgment of speedometer. we thought there could be a scenario by which there would be some willingness to admit a mistake that didn't happen with us. it certainly didn't happen today. i don't expect it is possible for the former president to admit any mistakes. i don't expect there's going to be any resolution at all if he continues to take that approach in the criminal cases. >> the parallel in what he held to was that the valuations were perfect, everything is bik bigger thanes it was. if you had a chance to can ask him questions, the insurrection would have been perfect. he only wished they'd gone farther and pressured pence. he's an absolutist in what what rusz described is his belief in his own bs. so i think it's such a fascinating window into trump as a witness to his own delusions. >> the question is sincere belief or a sales pitch. i don't know that it he would necessarily sigh on the merits they are worth x or y. he certainly is selling that they are in an attempt to et get financial institutions to give him money. it's very hard to separate sincere belief from what he thinks is in his business or personal interests. very similarly, he's going to have to prove there was an intent disrupt the joint session. getting inside someone's head is difficult. the judge will have to evaluate credibility and decipher that. i don't know that i get a sense that this is necessarily all sincere believes or as much a spin or a pitch to make money. >> i think the other piece of it is a spin and a pitch to the political base, which you can say for better or worse, alive and well. the reporting on his viciousness to the judge, i want to read to you. que,osing his composure, trump focused on the judge. he ruled agaim before knowing anything about his company. the judge called him a fraud. he then said any fraud was on the part of the judge for his comments on the value of trump's properties, not only trump calling that a, quote, terrible in the judge looked forward, done? the lawyer for the a.g.'s office asked, done, the former president said. i have had a toddler. when they want more goldfish or mud or sand and they are freaking out, like you learn in the parenting books to wait until they are done. that's exactly how you talk to hem, are you done? this is incredible. >> one of the things you can count on with donald trump is institutions and norms that you think you would have to respect. he loves embracing the that. >> it's that you'd want to. >> that's his brand. you don't have to respect authority. you don't have to respect courts or journalists. all of that is intentional. i did want to comment on something that i think leaing aside his awful behavior, just which is a whole part of the story today, but if you look at the substance of what happened today, there are two things that the state has to prove on the remaining causes of action. there's a cause of action that was found already. but on the 2 through 7, those are the remaining cause of action, the state has to prove intent and they have to prove reliance. i misspoke. intent means you have to show that donald trump intended or that trump organizations intended or don jr. intended for these to be false. it can't just be a mistake. that wasn't required for the first cause of action. and then reliance is and materiality are aspects of the nature of what is being misrepresented. so from something being material, it just means this is something that a bank would rely on. or is it frivolous? is my favorite color is blue, who cares. and i think that's where if you look at intent, i think donald trump as the progressed actually really hurt himself. so on materiality, the state asked those financial statements that you submitted to the banks, your personal guarantee, they were there to be relied on by the banks in order to give you a loan. and donald trump said that's right. that is a huge ball of wax that is gone from the case. that's a major part of the defense this he conceded. >> will think try to put that toothpaste back in the tube? >> i think they are going to try to do that with bank officers to try to say that they didn't rely and it wasn't material, but they have a problem because donald trump just said i knew that this -- >> i call a code red. >> the financial statements were being submitted, my personal guarantee was being submitted to deutsche bank. i knew that was induced them to give a loan. the second thing, which i thought was remarkable, was in the morning, he was definitely -- these are the perfect financial statements. if anything, they undervalued. but at the end of the day after showing him the lots of documents as to where the valuation were just not accurate and went through reality with him, and they said is it still your testimony that the financial statements are true and accurate and he wouldn't answer. >> what did he say? >> he kept on deflecting. they kept on asking it. he said, they may not be material. but that sort of a softball to say, of course, the financial statements are true and accurate. and i think that really is going to hurt him on intent. he needs to be saying, absolutely not, i thought these were true and accurate. he wouldn't say that. so if you're the judge who is going to be the person is on the facts. those two pieces, the materiality and the intent were really things that the state made progress on today. >> we have been listening alongside our conversation. just start at the beginning or pick up where we are now. your choice. >> reporter: i'm really interested in hearing the conversation you and andrew are having about intent and materiality. i think he got it absolutely right. trump would like us to be having a conversation right now about all of the ways in which he attacked the judge and attacked kevin wallace, who is a career official. but innerers anded between those moments of truth social posting, was a lot of very important testimony about his intent and the reliance of the banks on of the the documents. trump kept saying all the banks really cared about was that i had a cash balance of a certain amount. they were just focused on the cash. but he couldn't point to any disclaimer in the lending agreements to say the banks just cared about hiss cash. in fact, the loan agreements say they were induced to loan to him based on the series of representation, including the fact that every year he would submit his statements of financial condition that he would certify. that they represented his financial state. in addition to the fact he would maintain a minimum net worth of $2.5 billion, which gives him the incentive as anyone can see to inflate his net worth this any given year. there's a whole lot of incentive there and a lot riding on your ability to certify that. those are representations that he made at deutsche bank's insistence in addition to telling them he would have $50 million of liquid assets in loan after loan after loan. and after going through those loan agreements with him, and then getting the certifications, that the underlying statements of financial condition were true and accurate, the attorney general brought themselves a lot closer to establishing the reliance and the intent to defraud that have been missing from the case and words apart in the motion that the attorney general won pretrial. >> so donald trump becomes a star witness in the case against donald trump. it's like shaix peern. does that seem to be sinking in? that he's done damage? >> reporter: that he's done damage, i think they know that. they came out to the camera today and von hilliard said one of the things he said was that in 33 years of lawyering, he had never had a client perform more successfully on the stand. his very lengthy soliloqies were designed to slow trump down. andrew knows having been a former defense lawyer that one of the things that you can do, legitimately, but arguably a little sketchy, is to object at a deposition or at trial to is signal to your client i want you to slow down. i want you to think about what you're saying. the fact that chris was on his feet as often as he was today was as clear a signal to me they knew things were not going well, as anything that came out of trump's mouth. >> he should be sent to scale and should be the next person to weigh donald trump for an official weight. let me rea of your reporting about trump's record on of the stand. during a long career, trump has testified under oath inous depositions, more than 100 by his own estimate. he's made it a sport to spar with his interrogators. he has lost several lawsuits and his depositions have been used against him. did you see anything that suggested that unlike in the carroll trial, which you covered brilliantly for us, and unlike in trump view that he had done anything to disprove this pattern of hurting himself as a website? >> reporter: no, it was very much in keeping. i was going to say to you this reminds me of what i witnessed at the carroll trial, where the brilliant and patient deposition of donald trump pretrial was the nail in his coffin with respect to those jurors finding that he had sexually assaulted e.j. carroll. today what i saw was a donald trump, who as in prior incidents, give him a little rope, and he will hang had himself from the witness stand. it was just the same donald trump that you and i would expect, just. erred in between with a lot more political content and aggression, unlike anything i have seen from a witness before, than his usual content. he was nasty to them telling her you're not my type either. but that was nothing compared to the attacks that he posed from the witness stand today on the judge, onnen kevin wallace himself. >> the thing that makes every woman breathe a sigh of relief is the big insult. i want to underscore something you said. you dropped in this brilliant thing. brilliant truth social posting let's deal with his nastiness. that was the point for him. and i'm happy we have ignored it for 22 minutes, but let's deal with his venom. how bad was it? >> reporter: i think it was really disgraceful. i think trump justiies it to himself not only because of what's on the line for him, but somehow he and his lawyers have justified it on the grounds that the judge, unlike some of the federal judges he's appeared before, is elected to the new york supreme court, which is the building behind me. prior to being elected, like many officials here in new york, he came up through what's called the democratic club system. it's a series of neighborhood organizations through which ordinary citizens first become active in manhattan politics. there's nothing nefarious about that, except you're donald trump and you're the front runner for the republican nomination. you will make a huge issue out of that and use it as grounds for you're disrespecting the person on the bench and holds your future in your hands. to make it out as if this person was biassed against you, from the moment they ever saw your face, trump took it very personally. you quoted this it language before. he said you don't know anything about me and yet you called me a fraud. it was almost as if the judge had said that word to him, as if it were a personal faceoff. you know from reading the summary, it's not that way at all. it's fairly neutral and understated. but for trump, the venom was real. i don't actually think it was as calculated as many think it was. i think this is a person who was not in control by any measure today. >> it's so -- i think that's exactly right. that's certainly how it seemed. thank you so much for your brilliant reporting from there. we're so grateful to get talk to you. the rest of us are sticking around. we have much more. i want to play for you, attorney general's comments just after this. we'll do that next. also a brand new filing to tell you about from special counsel jack smith over in the federal election interference case. it provides a glimpse into how prosecutors are going to proceed in that huge criminal case and trial. plus you wouldn't know it, but the ex-president does still have primary opponents, rivals in the next election. we'll show you the latest example that the gop is no longer engaged in any sort of serious primary process. how a maga crowd in florida reacted this weekend before the candidates finished walking out to the stage. and later in the broadcast, more warnings about what an empowered second trump white house will look like. all those stories and more when we continue after a quick break. don't go anywhere. re when we continue after a quick break. don't go anywhere. come with the ucard — one simple member card that opens doors for what matters. how 'bout using it at the pharmacy? 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he falsely inflated his assets to enrich himself and his family. to engage in fraud. and that's what is exactly what he committed on the stand today engaging in distractions and engaging in name calling. but i will not be bullied. i will not be harassed. this case will go on. >> we're all back. part of what she had to say, there are two pillars. i will not be bullied or intimidated. but the other, he falsely inflated his assets to enrich his family, the numbers don't lie. you could have written that as for anyone that didn't get through all of your extraordinary reporting that was the bottom line. >> absolutely. that's the course of his life. to make things look bigger than they are. and in this case, it was of real value to him. he keeps saying no one was hurt, but every party that he dealt with here, every bank, every insurance company gave him better rates than he would have gotten by else itting the truth. they knew that. and as lisa pointed out, he had to sign certiications every year this was real. you see that in the court documents. they are doing that. and it had great impact on it. it was hard for him to even get loans. they created the chicago tower that was on the apprentice. one of the amazing facts that came out of the case is his income taxes, he declared that in as worthless. a gap between what he says and what he told banks, it was of real value to him. i also think they raise a great point. things that he says are are so nutty if you know the facts that can seem humorous. we learned that these things can have real import. that's the reason we had january 6th. he inflamed people to believe i'm a victim, you're a victim and it's hard to not see he's taking responsibility for that. and that's why the judge gets worried when insults could have real import. he does not se himself as a public official. >> to lisa's bril yablt reporting, he took offense and he accused the judge of calling him a fraud. the judge didn't call him a fraud. the judge ruled that the trump organization was liable for fraud. but he's so triggered by being called out, by even the threat of accountability, the threat of transparency or the threat of a light on his records, it is this instant aggressive projection of violence and intimidation. i wonder what it makes you think about and what we should have in mind as we head toward the criminal trials. >> it does suggest a similar pattern. anger at being told the truth. the ther thing about the testimony that does have a direct parallel is the degree to which had he asserted control. he in contrast to his sons who said we were lying. the little bit i read today is president trumps owns it. he certified those statements were accurate because of his great personal wealth and the value of the brand. that's important to jack smith. in other words, he won't be able to say i listened to rudy giuliani and i listened to the advice i was getting. he's owning responsibility. that's part of the ego that you see with him again and dependent. that will be really, really important. that's the theory of the government's case. that's the theory of the special counsel's case. he only charged the leader and will have to prove that the president personally directed and making the decisions, i think live testimony from president trump, if it's consistent, will forward that argument by the special counsel. >> to tim's point, two things. i remember chris christie and rudy giuliani telling me that they would lay down their body before they would let donald trump talk to you guys. he was doing press avils in the white house. i can't wait to talk to mueller i'll do it. and every time people got to any of the lawyers involved or advising, there no way, no how. the other thing is his ego won't allow him to be anything other than the guy on the phone with pence. the guy dealing with eastman, the guy moving around the pieces. there's no story about january 6th that his egowill permit to be told. >> one of the things that's so remarkable today is this is donald trump taking his public persona and bringing it into a court of law. he didn't do that during the impeachment proceedings, either one. he didn't do that in tim's investigation. he didn't do that in the mueller case. i can actually take on facts and law. and it doesn't matter because i am so convinced that i've got people for whom that doesn't matter. and that, to me, is the really big picture of today. this now veers into your lane, which is we all get the reporting from lee is is a. we read what happened, but for this to really have an impact, to me, it's a little bit like the mueller report versus the january 6th hearings. it's so important for people to actually see this and to experience it because otherwise, he can do what he did today, and i'm not sure it's going to get through to everyone. it will get through the people who actually want to do this. and i think that unless you can do the january 6th equivalent of the hearings, his effort to basically just be like i'm going to explode my personality and essentially lie with a bandit, it doesn't matter what you say or do. i don't care about the judge or the judge's staff. if you don't have that being seen, it's hard for me to see how this is going to really resinate. >> have a political rinse. i don't know the answer to that question. i'll give you the last word. when you embarked on this report ing, which is based on documents and confidential sources, did you think you'd see this? trump raging against the machine? >> wow, that is a fascinating question. i think when this started in 2015 for us, he was just another person running for office. we knew there was some kind of gap between what the perception of him was and the reality. but we didn't know the magnitude of that. i think it was kind of able, en just a couple years ago to think we were going to wind up here with the former president of the united states on the witness stand, kind of unable to control himself, lashing out at the legal system again. i think if you watched him through the years, this is a logical progression. i think he's there because he thinks he can intimidate systems. he can make this judge upset and make a mistake. make him so bim dating it might change his decision. he thinks he has great effect in that way. when we started this, it wasn't that crazy. this guy who fancies himself a businessman is going to run for office. i don't think we saw anything really what's happening in the last year since. >> just to remind everyone, that reporting was an extraordinary public service. he was the first person to not turn over his taxes. the reporting, it's not complete or published before the election, but it is the first comprehensive look at the disparity between what he describes as his wealth and the actual numbers that don't lie. it's a privilege to have you here. thank you very much. there's always more. up next, prosecutors have just filed their motion of posing the attempt to dismiss the charges he's facing in the january 6 criminal case. fiery response from special counsel jack smith is what we'll read next. counsel jack smith is what we'll read next. moving forward with node- positive breast cancer is overwhelming. but i never just found my way; i made it. and did all i could to prevent recurrence. verzenio reduces the risk of recurrence of hr-positive, her2-negative, node-positive, early breast cancer with a high chance of returning, as determined by your doctor when added to hormone therapy. hormone therapy works outside the cell... while verzenio works inside to help stop the growth of cancer cells. diarrhea is common, may be severe, or cause dehydration or infection. at the first sign, call your doctor, start an antidiarrheal, and drink fluids. before taking verzenio, tell your doctor about any fever, chills, or other signs of infection. verzenio may cause low white blood cell counts, which may cause serious infection that can lead to 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recognize the defendant's motion for what it is. a meritless effort to evade the indictments clear allegations that the defendant is responsible for the events of the capitol. that day was the culmination of the defendant's criminal conspiracies to overturn the legitimate results of the presidential election. the defendant directed a large and angry crowd, one that he had summoned to washington, d.c. and fuelled with knowingly false claims of election fraud to the capitol to obstruct the congressional certification proceeding. we're back with andrew and tim. tim, this is very similar to the case you and the chair and vice chair made against donald trump. >> it's exactly right. what i read the first paragraph of this response today, it sounds very much like liz cheney's opening statement at our first hearing last summer. you cannot see what happened at the capitol as anything other than the last desperate step in a prolonged and intentional effort to try to disrupt the joint session and prevent the transfer of power. they tried starting with the courts, legitimate attempts to putting pressure on officials, to then attempting to submit the fake electors, to then putting pressure on the most loyal. they finally turned to the most desperate step which is inciting a mob, a violent insurrection that was the direct response to the president's words on the before. you can't understand this whole pattern that the special counsel has charged without seeing the violence. and seeing his inaction, it does track closely with the story we told that the special counsel will tail light. now it's up to a jury to decide if they see the connection. this is just setting the terms of what is or isn't admissible, but it's so clearly part in parcel of the government's theory that that government response makes plain. i can't imagine the judge would strike any reference to the violence at the capitol. >> to tim's point, it's central to the evidence trump still embraces. trump's movement, according to the senior political adviser, refer os to themselves as the trumpians. they haven't walked away from violence. it's nothing he rekapted. it's sort of something that comes. he hasn't walked away from any of the evidence as it exists prior to january 6th. >> he's embraced it. he's like i'm with them. absolutely. this is what is interesting. it's important to note this motion is not about dismissing charges. it's not like the presidential immunity motion, which if the supreme court were to weigh in and grant that, case is eefr. this is about limiting the nature of the proof and it is important to get nerdy for a moment, donald trump is not charged with insurrection. he's not charged with inciting violence. so totally right for liz cheney and tim and his colleagues to be focusing on that, as what the picture is. they are not doing a criminal case. so this is saying in connection with the criminal case, is this undually prejudice shl. if you looked at this motion in the light, most favorable is should all of this evidence come in, there's no question i agree with tim. of course, a lot of this evidence has to the to come in. it's part of the obstruction conspiracy. the whole goal was to obstruct. >> and to deny people the value of their vote. >> write think the judge has wiggle room, this motion should be denied. where i think there's wiggle room is because donald trump is not charged with inciting the violence, you can imagine the judge saying i'm going to give an instruction to the jury about how they can use this evidence. they are not using it improperly. you have to prove what he's charged with. notment some other crime. and you don't want things to be undually prejudice shl. since he's not charged with incitement to avoid the first amendment issueses, there's a way to accommodate the concern here, accommodate the convictions, there's no appeal issue. there's no question the main proof here is clearly relevant to the obstruction charges that tim said. >> thank you very much for having this conversation. you're going to stick around. >> always. >> the ex-president's maga crowd actually booed republican presidential candidate chris christie over the weekend. we'll show it to you. >> when you think about the problems that our country -- n y problems that our country -- (carolers) ♪ iphone 15 pro for your husband! iphone 15 pro — ♪ (wife) carolers! to tell me you want a new iphone? a better plan is verizon. 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[ yelling ] yeah. well, now it feels like home. thank you all very much. >> what a shock. you're for trump. i'm going to fall over dead. >> every one of those boos, every one of those cat calls, every one of those yells will not -- >> boo! >> yeah, sure. will not solve one problem we face in this country. your anger against the truth is reprehensible. [ boos ] >> i'm writing that down as quickly as i can. your anger against the truth is reprehensible. there are a lot of reasons why we are at this place. we don't have time to deal with all of them. but to help us unpack what you just saw, senior opinion columnist for the "boston globe" kimberly atkins stohr and former congressman from florida david jolly, both are msnbc political analysts. i don't -- i sparingly depict the republican primary because it isn't one really, kim. christie is actually an exception. he is running against trump. the others seem to be running for him, next to him, because of him, in addition to him. it's unclear what the rest of them are doing. christie is running against him. and that's what the base thinks of that. >> yeah. you know, in the beginning i thought that having chris christie in this race could really do something. would he beat trump? probably not. but he might turn a mirror to the party so that they can look at themselves and see what they've become. it seems that he was trying to do that there in florida. the problem is up until now chris christie really hasn't done that. he's been running against trump but not running against trumpism. and he's been spending a lot of time up in new hampshire trying to get a toe hold there, talking to people, including me and my colleagues at "the boston globe." and i asked him about that head on, and he disagreed with the premise that the party has changed under trump and is not the party that it was in 2012 or 2014. and he seemed not to get it. perhaps that's why at the debates he hasn't really come with the fire that i thought that he would. he gets distracted fighting with vivek ramaswamy and whatnot. and he hasn't been that chris christie that tells the truth to the base of the republican party. maybe if he'd done that more at least more people would be waking up to this reality than have so far. >> you know, the history, david jolly, of chris christie as a republican primary candidate is his legacy is he took out marco rubio. he doesn't seem to have tried to use a debate performance yet to take out donald trump. >> no, he hasn't. nor really ron desantis or others. look, i have a slightly unconventional take on this about chris christie. and condemnation to the florida republicans who are booing him. chris christie's on the right side of history. he's running for the right reasons. he's challenging donald trump on his anti-democratic themes. but i would say to chris christie, what are you doing in this race and what are you doing in this party? and what i mean by that is with a bit of exhaustion because this has never been a party that was shaped for a chris christie presidential run. if it was just a matter of getting the message out against donald trump then kim's exactly right, deliver that message and realize you're going to get booed because the republican room does not want to hear that message from chris christie. but it's why i started with why are you even in this race. because that message for me goes to a lot of other republicans today including liz cheney, adam kinzinger, all the ones we know by name in the spotlight who are doing the right things in this trump era. i don't know what you're holding on to anymore because this is a post-ideology coalition, the republican party is. it is an angry, anti-democratic, populist movement that occasionally has a whiff of conservatism. if you're chris christie or others who think you're going to use the republican party to advance a conservative cause, you're not. and i don't know what you're waiting for. and if the boos in that room in florida weren't enough, very respectfully because he's in it for the right reason, but what's it going to take for you to say enough with the gop, let's go in a new direction? >> i was thinking too, kim, about the impact of liz cheney's role on the january 6th committee on the midterms, of sort of being a loud visible televised voice that independent voters saw ahead of those midterms helped make impossible a red wave of any kind. and certainly seeing chris christie saying this, "your anger against the truth is reprehensible" is an impactful message. i guess my question is i mean, did he have any sense when you talked to him or interviewed him that it was getting out to anyone? >> no. it seemed to me that he's -- i agree completely with david jolly that -- i was sort of asking him that very question. why do you want to be the head of this particular party as it stands now? particularly if you are trying to prevent donald trump from holding office again. those things seem a little inkong ruous. and he couldn't really square that circle. he wanted to believe that it was just trump, it seemed, that is the problem with the party and it hasn't metastasized farther than it clearly has and that is showing him in the face. i was hoping that maybe there would be within the party still some coalition around a non-trump candidate even if that candidate loses in order to speak truth the same way that he is in that clip. but that certainly hasn't happened and he certainly isn't leading that effort. and i don't see how republicans can right themselves in the way that he may genuinely want them to without doing that. >> it's so interesting. we'll continue to have this conversation with the two of you all week. thank you for joining us today. i'm sorry we're so short on time. up next for us there's new reporting on the revenge that trump and his allies are plotting for people they think betrayed them during a second presidency. that warning and what can be done about it is next. at warnine done about it is nt.ex (vo) explore the world the viking way from the quiet comfort of elegant small ships with no children and no casinos. we actually have reinvented ocean voyages, designing all-inclusive experiences for the thinking person. viking - voted world's best by both travel + leisure and condé nast traveler. learn more at 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in our action against donald trump and his repeated and consistent fraud against the citizens of the great state of new york. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. we return to our top story of the day where a wild day was had in a manhattan courthouse. it was just wrapped up. testifying under oath in the $250 million civil fraud trial, ex-president donald trump gave quite a performance, if you will, from the bench, ranting angrily about the judge, the new york attorney general who you just saw there, as well as prosecutors. trump was extremely combative, even for trump. at one point judge engoron told trump's lawyers, "i besch you to control him." and said that if trump continued to sidestep questions, "i will take every negative inference that i can." at another point the judge warned, "this is not a political rally." when trump did deign to answer questions about the valuationsc argued that his properties were severely undervalued on financial statements. he described his involvement in those statements, seemingly undercutting his very own legal defense. joining's here at the table someone who we turn to all the time for her reporting on the civil trial and trump's business dealings over the years, "new york times" investigative reporter sue craig, who was outside the courthouse today. andrew weissmann is still with us as well, inside. so we talked about this a little bit in the last hour. and i want to start with the legal substance of what he offered. it was andrew's assessment that he damaged himself on a couple of fronts. and i want to deal with the theatrics and the drama second. but take me through -- you always have an open -- a note. make sure we never turn the camera on. but just tell me your reporting on the legal substance and the substance of his testimony first. >> i first want to say after things like this as a newspaper reporter i usually call a lawyer to see what they think. and then i look really smart. so i'm glad you're here. you and i should con fehr and then we'll have this conversation. but you know, i thought it was interesting. he -- and i want to just take the volume down a bit and just talk about some of his defenses this morning. >> yeah. >> they didn't all happen this morning but a lot of them were kind of jam-packed into the first part. and the first one is that the banks don't rely on these statements. and he just went on about that. he said they look at the deal, they look at the location. so they do their own due diligence and they come to a conclusion. and then he went on about how the financial statements themselves have all these disclaimers that make them worthless. and he said, you know -- so he says i have all this language that says don't rely on them and these are just kind of our best guess or whatever they say. so then he went to that. but i think the one if i could zero in on that he fell back the most on was the idea -- and i don't think it's unpersuasive to a larger audience. that these loans are performing. that all of them -- he went on sometimes at great length about how the chicago loan is one example. it actually was just recently paid back. but the banks have made tens of millions of dollars on these loans. so there's no victims here. and that was the one i felt he fell back on. and the other thing that he said over and over and over, this will come as no surprise to anybody, that the financial statements are not only amazing, they actually undervalue his assets. >> i call that the "perfect call" defense. >> and i think why that's easily digestible to a lot of people is the triplex at trump tower. there's been a lot of discussion about how many square feet are in that. i think it's roughly 10,000. he's been saying it's 30,000 square feet. and that's been in documents. and his excuse for that -- i thought he might just fall on his sword and say that was a typo or we got that wrong or something. but no, he said that it missed -- that in valuing it included things that maybe shouldn't have been included like the elevator shaft. i think he might have mentioned the common space. >> the elevator. >> so now we've got the biggest elevators. >> it's two floors. >> the shaft, we measured it on the edges. >> so that -- and then the other part that was interesting, he sort of became a bit of a travel agent at times. every time he'd talk about a property he'd say -- he'd talk about scotland and how the views are great and scot castle's on it. >> he used to talk about the thread count and stuff, talk about the sheets and the views. >> yeah. he didn't mention, by the way, that most of his properties lose money year in and year out and that he's plowed millions of dollars just to keep them going. it doesn't mean they don't have value if they're sold. but they are pretty much without exception, there's a few that make money. most of them lose money. that didn't come up in his presentation today. >> it was pointed out that he has clearly personalized the civil finding of fraud. and he said to judge engoron, you accused me of fraud. nobody accused him of anything. evidence was presented. the attorney general said today the numbers don't lie. and based on the preponderance of evidence he was found liable for fraud. he seems to have sort of twisted that and was presenting that as an attack against judge engoron today? >> right. and i want to speak to that because i think it was a factor because instead of talking about what i was just talking about, everybody was talking about his performance in court today. this was a win for him because his audience isn't the judge, his audience is the voters and the people who feel he's wronged. he played the victim card perfectly today. >> if they could see it. >> right. but they'll hear something about it. he was fund-raising. i got an e-mail while he was in court, a fund-raising e-mail. we'll get some more tonight. he was very loud. at one point he was screaming at the judge and he said, "you know nothing about me or my properties." he was just screaming at him. the judge started out trying to really just rein him in. he was sort of objecting like you would imagine a lawyer for the attorney general would. he was saying, you know, answer the question. you're going on. he just kept stopping him. i have a whole list here of all the things he said. you can attack me. you can do what you want. but just answer the question. that was a yes or no question. in addition to the answers being non-responsive, they are repetitive. no, i don't want to hear everything the witness has to say. and that was i think badly phrased by the judge. he was saying -- he's giving political speeches at one point he told him to stop giving political speeches. i mean, this was all before 11:00. i just gave up kind of trying to keep track. but then in the afternoon he -- the judge kind of took i thought his foot off the gas a bit and couple times he looked at the lawyer for the attorney general and said i can interrupt if you want. this is your witness. he's not answering, he's giving a speech but he really did dial it back. even in the late morning, afternoon. but trump was just -- he was like a caged animal at points. >> without the cage. >> he was really angry. at one point he wanted to -- he brought something that was a document related to the financials and he wanted to read it in court. and the judge said no. you know, it was a bit -- >> he seems to do himself harm in that while his sons said i relied on experts, i don't know anything about accounting, i just went to business -- i don't know. he seemed to say yeah, no, i did it, it was me and it was great. >> he also said he relied on accountants. he just added more, i knew about a lot of it -- his point in it was a lot of it was -- he said that the values, whatever they came in at, he was fine with them because they're actually worth a lot more. and his -- i think his real -- his view is on appraisals -- i don't even know if it's his view. it's what he's saying, is somebody may pay $1.5 billion for mar-a-lago. so that's what it's worth. like somebody could pay $4 billion for seven springs, the estate out in westchester, so then it's worth that. that was sort of his through line on appraisals, it's not that two people would come to an agreement or you'd have an appraiser and you'd put in comparables and you'd actually try to come to a value based on -- >> but he has applied for loans. that doesn't work if he's represented other values on financial documents. isn't that sort of at the heart of all of this? >> right. and there's values all over the map depending which documents you look at. so i don't think it holds water. but that's sort of where we were going. it was a little bit like throwing spaghetti at a wall. there was a million -- i don't want to put more emphasis on one an or even more weight on one. it was just -- he had the ten things we've been talking about for the last two weeks and all of them came up today in terms of, you know, i relied on experts, the financials are worthless, even if they were submitted everything in there is amazing so it doesn't matter. and there's more. >> and will it work? >> well, just to be clear, essentially what susanne's saying is just think of the four years of the trump presidency and the incoming where you were trying to catch all of the things that you thought were lies and the number of like "washington post" pinocchios just would -- it was just astronomical. and that was sort of his strategy, which was to overwhelm you. so this to me was so much was coming at the state's lawyer that his job was to really keep this honed and focused. and i think by and large he did a really good job. and i think particularly in the afternoon i think he got what he needed. and so yes, was the former president sort of all over the place with like 18 defenses of which any logical person -- but it's also the defenses are -- essentially it's equivalent of i didn't kill him but if i killed him it was self-defense. it's just all of these inconsistencies. but at the end of the day there were things that i think in addition to helping with intent and helping with reliance, there were statements that were i think going to be argued credibly as false. for instance, at some point the former president said everything that happened in the trump organizations was legal and i wouldn't have tolerated anything that was illegal. the trump organizations have been convicted before a jury. allen weisselberg has pleaded guilty. so he just had to ignore all that and say that's all fake news. i think there was a lot of stuff where he -- because of his sort of undisciplined approach of i'm going to put everything out there, i think he has given judge engoron sort of a pupu platter of okay, i'm going to teak this falsity and this falsity and this falsity -- >> anyone that can work pupu platter into -- >> you have to remember, though, and this is a really important point because we can sit here and talk about everything that came up. he has a different audience. we're thinking about how the judge is processing this. and his audience today was just completely different. so it's like the judge is -- >> he does seem to care what happens to his business. >> but that's all pretty much a foregone conclusion. >> that's a good point. >> he's outside in the bleachers. he's talking to someone up there out there. and we can all talk about sort of the merits of this case and -- >> they're having a different conversation. >> because he has a very different audience. >> thank you so much for being there, and for covering it. it's mind-bending. is that a word? i think it is. >> it was today. >> thank you very much. as we saw on full display as we're talking about in the new york courtroom, donald trump has displayed zero respect for faith in the rule of law or any of the norms around the rule of law. he's the boy who cried witch hunt over and over again. rigged, election interference whenever anyone attempts to hold him to account as any of the rest of us would be. there's now brand new extraordinary reporting in the "washington post" today that is filled with warnings of what that could lead to in a second trump presidency. actions the ex-president is saying he would take that are just two sides of the same coin, what we saw from him as a witness today. the "post" reporting in stunning new detail on trump's plans to obliterate the fundamental principles of our nation's justice stem as we've known it, its independence. from that reporting, quote, in private trump has told advisers and friends in recent months that he wantshe justice department to investigate one-time officials and allies who have become critical of his time in office including his former chief of staff john kelly and former attorney general william barr as well as his ex-attorneyyobb and former joint chiefs of staff chairman general mark milley. that is according to people who have tald to him who like others spoke anonymously to describe private conversations. trump has also talked about prosecuting officials at the fbi and justice department, a person familiar with the matter said. just to take stock of all that reporting, donald trump wants to go after, investigate and prosecute high-ranking generals who served this country for decades as well as conservative lawyers who he at one time hired to work for him, all because they don't continue to go along with every single thing he says now as an ex-president and on occasion stopped him from breaking the law, ostensibly because they worked for him for his own good at the time. john kelly tells the "washington post" about trump's new approach to filling white house positions if he ends up there again, quote, the lesson the former president learned from his first term is don't put guys like me in those jobs. the lesson he learned was to find sycophants. and trump's authoritarian impulses tragicall don't end there. the post adds this, quote, much of the planning for a second term has beenunofficially outsourced to a partnership of right-wing think tanks in washington. dubbed project 2025, the group is developing a plan to include draft executive ordershat would deploy the military domestically under the insurrection act. that's according to a person involved in those conversations and internal communications reviewed by the "washington po." the law last updated in 1871 authorizes the president to deploy the military for domestic law enforcement. the proposal was identified in internal discussions as an immediate priority, the communicatio showed. the executive director of protect democracy ian bassen after reading this "washington post" reporting, said this, quote, let's call this what it is. trump is planning a military dictatorship. this is radical stuff that would end america as we know it. joining our conversation, the co-founder and executive director at protect democracy, the aforementioned ian bassen. "new york times" washington correspondent who's covered a lot of these efforts by trump and his one presidential term, mike schmidt joins the conversation as well. ian, i read the reporting, and it seemed to build on reporting in the "new york times" about what trump would do at doj and at the border. but it was your tweet about it that stopped me in my tracks and took my breath away. just tell us more about your reaction. >> well, this is the nightmare scenario. when i worked in the white house counsel's office, one of the most important rules that i and my colleagues in the counsel's office really held the barricades on was making sure that people in the white house did not contact the department of justice about individual investigations or individual prosecutions. we had a 14-page memo that we had inherited from the bush administration before us, that they had inherited from the clinton administration before them, that went all the way back to watergate, a formal memo that set out the rules to prevent white house interference in specific party matters at doj. but informally it goes back way further than watergate because the entire idea in the united states is that the application of law and facts and the weighty decision and the incredibly powerful decision of the government to prosecute and potentially incarcerate an american citizen is handled at arm's length from the political branches. and one of the primary motivations in me and several at the white house counsel's office founding an organization called protect democracy was a fear of what would happen if a leader came to power who disregarded those rules. that starts to look a lot, frankly, like vladimir putin. right? who simply selects people that he views as political opponents and orders his vast government apparatus to lock them up, as trump promised to do in his 2016 campaigns. now, look, i know there are a lot of people watching this who say well, wait a minute, isn't the current department of justice prosecuting the political opponent of the current president? there are two incredibly important differences here. number one is there is absolutely zero evidence to suggest that the biden white house has had anything to do with the independent decision-making of the department of justice on this count. right? and then second, there are just the difference in facts. what are the legal allegations that mark milley broke the law or that john kelly broke the law or that ty cobb broke the law? they simply don't exist. the only thing this reporting suggests, that trump wants to prosecute them because they were disloyal to him. it's a little bit as if the mafia after being prosecuted ran for office, won office, decided to prosecute the prosecutors and then people said, well, i guess the prosecutors did it to them. that just doesn't make any sense, and it's very, very dangerous. >> ian, do countries on a path where the leader of the party that wants to prosecute their former chief of staff, a general, their former top military official, another general, and their former attorney general, someone who was very, very, very willing to wend the justice department, i won't say break because i don't know that we know enough, but very willing to bend it. do countries that support the leader of that party and the numbers you see supporting donald trump today, do they get off that path or do they stumble toward authoritarian regimes? >> well, unfortunately, those countries are the ones that are leading the authoritarian resurgence in the 21st century. we are living through a global recession of democracy. we've talked about it on this show before. where these illiberal populist authoritarian parties and leaders are gaining traction around the world, from venezuela to hungary to russia obviously, and we're seeing it, yes, here. and the thing that is particularly troubling here that should really frighten us is if a single leader tries to aggrandize power and abuse powers in these ways, a system, a democratic system, a liberal democratic system should be able to withstand it, especially one as strong as the united states with all of our checks and balances. but when an entire party unites behind that leader, that's when the system begins to fail. you know, the founders anticipated that a tyrant might want to put loyal servants in important positions to do his bidding, and so they built a check against it, which is the senate confirmation process. anyone that donald trump wants to make his attorney general needs to be confirmed by the senate. and what alexander hamilton wrote in the federalist papers defending that provision i think is worth quoting here. hamilton was concerned that without a separate branch of government checking the confirmation process a leader might put people in powerful positions, quote, who had no other merit than of being in some way or other personally allied to that leader or of possessing the necessary insignificance and pliancy to render them the obsequious instruments of his pleasure. well, if a party is willing to rubber-stamp that, then the checks and balances simply will not hold. >> well, ian, i want to press you on this. i have to sneak in a break or all the circuits are going to blow around here. but trump also has shown a willingness to not have any confirmed people, i mean, to run the executive branch at least with all acting officials. so he seems to have already tested the well thought through checks and balances. >> and that's all the more reason why congress is sitting too much on its hands when it should be reforming the vacancies reform act, and there are provisions on the table that both republican and democratic members of congress have in the past supported that would close that loophole. as trump said in his first term, he liked having acting officials because he said they're more loyal to him. but now he has made clear his intent for a second term and it's -- what i wonder is someone leaked some of this information to the reporters at the "washington post," right? where are those people coming and speaking out publicly? john kelly said he's sure that trump will turn on those who he perceives have turned on him. i certainly hope that john kelly and all the others like him will come out and warn the country more forcefully during the campaign and frankly urge people to vote for the one person right now who can stop this, and that right now is the incumbent president. >> i want to bring andrew and mike in on this. mike, you have a ton of reporting on two of the people named as being the targets of trump's ire and potential prosecution, bill barr and john kelly. i want to press you on what you think they'll do to sound the alarm if they are indeed alarmed, as they should be. and andrew, you and your colleagues in the mueller probe have been on the receiving end of these tlaets threats for a whole lot of years now. i want to ask you to pull this thread for all of us. no one's going anywhere. there's much more to get through on the disgraced ex-president's now concrete plans to carry out a campaign of revenge against his perceived enemies, one-time insiders, should he prevail in next year's presidential election. also ahead for us, the israeli military has encircled gaza city as part of the next phase of its operation against the hamas terrorist network. it comes as u.s. secretary of state antony blinken is on another whirlwind tour of the middle east trying to use his diplomatic tools to keep the war from expanding. later in the broadcast, we'll talk about how to combat the growing menace of antisemitism. israel's special envoy on that very topic will join us at the table. 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(announcer) change your life at golo.com. that's golo.com. we're back with ian, mike and andrew. mike, let me read you this from the "washington post" reporting. jo kelly said he would expect trump to investigate him because since his term as chief of staff ended he has publicly criticized trump including by alleging that he called dead service members, quote, suckers. kelly added, quote, there's no question in my mind he's going to go after people who have turned on him. bill barr, another trump appointee turned critic, has contradicted the former president's false claims about the 2020 election and called him, quote, a very petty individual who will always put his interests ahead of the untry's. asked about trump's interestn prosecuting him, bill barr deadpanned, quote, i'm quivering in my boots. trump himself is more likely to rot in jail than anyone on his alleged list. and ty cobb, who accused tmp of stifling truth, making threats and bullying weaklings into doing his bidding. general milley did not comment. you've covered all of these individuals. you've covered all of their chapters in the trump story. your thoughts. >> well, i mean, one of the things that john kelly is guilty in donald trump's book of is speaking out and saying that trump had tried to use the irs and the fbi against his enemies. i think that if you talk to the pete strzoks of the world and lisa pages of the world and jim comey and folks like that and maybe even hillary clinton, the justice department in their eyes did a lot of the things that donald trump wanted done on them during his time in office. and while it was stuff that trump said publicly and stuff this trump said privately we never found a direct order of it happening. we know that at one point trump said to don mcgahn he wanted to order him, he wanted to order the justice department to prosecute hillary and comey. mcgahn stopped that. but there's a big period of time after mcgahn where a lot of other things happened where we don't really know exactly what trump may have formally told the department. but if you're to speak to those individuals who were all thoroughly investigated in different ways, they would say that this has already happened. and the problem with this and the problem with trump's rhetoric publicly is that it creates this perception that no matter what the department does it has to overcome the perception that the president of the united states said this is what he wanted. so every time the department takes a move, maybe when they investigated jim comey it was based on the facts. it's much more difficult to believe that after donald trump has publicly weighed in on it. and this type of use of the justice department, i've just always found so remarkable because while trump's efforts to obstruct investigations were very important because he was making it harder for people to find out about his conduct, this is proactively using the powers of government against an individual and using one of the most sacred powers in this country, putting someone in prison or trying to put someone in prison and using that not for factual reasons but for political means. >> you reframe it in an interesting way, mike. i mean, comey was investigated. say more about what that was for. mccabe also investigated and almost prosecuted. i think they go before a grand jury and the grand jury doesn't indict. i believe that's how it went down. strzok and page also investigated. michael cohen in prison. may see himself as the first political prisoner. say what was done -- >> the michael cohen thing is one of the most remarkable things that never has got erin the attention probably it deserved in the trump era, which is that when michael cohen refused to sign a document that he wouldn't put out a book about trump he was basically thrown back behind bars by the justice department and put back behind -- incarcerated for not going along with committing to not speaking out against trump. so if you look at trump's enemies list and you look at what trump has said, most of them were investigated. they tried to prosecute mccabe. they -- you know, they took all of these other investigative things that allowed them to look into the lives of these individuals. and you know, at the end of the day it's hard to overcome that perception and say okay, i guess the justice department was just following the facts when the person who was in charge of the justice department, who wanted to order the justice department to do this stuff, was donald trump. and then on top of this, on top of all these people being investigated we know that comey and mccabe were also subject to this highly unusual invasive audit by the irs. so this is not something that is new. this is something that trump talked a lot about when he was president. it dates back to when he first found out himself that he was under investigation and he realized the power of the idea that you are under investigation. and he's tried to do this back to 2017, 2018. >> andrew, it is like political violence. it's already happened. and i don't really remember a lot of republicans and democrats coming out and rebuking trump for using his justice department against any of these individuals, comey, mccabe, strzok, page or cohen. >> yeah. and i would add to what mike's saying is not only do you have using the justice department as a sword and the reporting is really i think correctly saying he's going to continue what we saw but it's going to be, you know, in spades, just much stronger, but he's also used it to not have the justice department go after friends. so roger stone, got rid of that case. flynn, got rid of that case. pardoned every single person -- >> bannon. he pardons bannon. >> exactly. every single person in the mueller investigation who did not cooperate was pardoned. so he has figured out how to use the unitary executive, which is what ian's getting at, which is that the president is not really subject to checks and balances in this regard. what the constitution is flawed in that it is presupposing that someone is going to elect somebody who understands that even though the department of justice is within the executive branch it has to be separated when it comes to decisions about who to prosecute and who not to prosecute. or you end up as ian said with russia, with a so-called banana republic where the -- you do not have a democracy. but that relies on the core principles and moral fiber of self-restraint, which is not words that really go along with donald trump in terms of how they're going to behave in the executive branch. >> ian, how do you make citizens love their democracy more than they hate their political enemies? >> well, i think first there's two lies that we've got to debunk because i think people ultimately want a government that represents them. so the first lie is that donald trump has said and it's reported in this piece that he wants lawyers who are loyal to him. right? but when i served in the white house as a government lawyer, i'm sure this was true for andrew as well, we were loyal first and foremost to the constitution as a way of being loyal to the american people and the immediate thing we were loyal to was the office. the one thing we were never loyal to, and we made this very clear, was to any individual sitting in government. so the irony is donald trump says i represent you. but he's actually asking for people who the citizens pay with their taxpayer dollars to not be putting the people first and be putting donald trump first. and i don't know why anyone would want to pay for a personal lawyer for donald trump instead of paying for a lawyer for them. the second lie here, and andrew mentioned this as well, is this whole unitary executive theory. is in the "washington post" article russ vought, one of the top trump lieutenants who is sort of setting this up, claims there's no constitutional requirement that doj be independent of the president. and andrew's right, there's not a structural way of putting teeth to other constitutional provisions, but there are other provisions that do make doj operate independently. the due process clause requires a fair process. the equal protection clause requires that people don't get singled out unfairly. the first amendment protects someone's political beliefs from being a cause for retaliation. and finally, and this is andrew's real point, the take care clause requires that anyone in the office of the presidency takes an oath to uphold all these principles of the constitution. and donald trump and ross vought want to throw all of that out. for folks who want to read all about it we actually wrote a white paper on this which we'll post afterwards on threads at protect democracy. >> white papers, my producers might cringe when i say this, don't always make for riveting cable television. but we'll try. we'll pick that up after you post it and reconvene all of you and continue this conversation. i'm not sure there's anything more important. ian bhasin, mike schmidt, andrew weissmann, thank you all so much for having this conversation with us. we're really, really grateful. and we will turn that white paper into some riveting cable news. when we come back, we will turn to the middle east. the israeli military says it is carrying out a significant operation inside of gaza. it comes as u.s. secretary of state antony blinken is trying to head off a wider war. we'll go to the white house. and national security council spokesperson john kirby. after a very short break. stay with us. kirby. after a very short break stay with us pta®? remember the pain? cancelled plans? the worry? that was then. and look at me now. you'll never truly forget migraine. but qulipta® reduces attacks, making zero-migraine days possible. it's the only pill of its kind that blocks cgrp - and is approved to prevent migraine of any frequency. to help give you that forget-you-get migraine feeling. don't take if 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surpassed 10,000. exactly 30 days since hamas's terrorist attack killed 1,400 israelis and took more than 200 people hostage. all of this while u.s. secretary of state antony blinken continues his diplomatic tour to try to keep the war from expanding into a wider regional conflict. from turkey today secretary blinken calling his push for humanitarian pause a, quote, work in progress after israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu said there would be no temporary ceasefire with hamas, quote, that doesn't include a return of our hostages. joining us now, national security council spokesperson john kirby, outside the white house, which is now dark thanks to daylight savings. john, tell us what you guys are working today here at home and in the region. >> well, today the president had another opportunity to speak to prime minister netanyahu, and he talked about the fact that we're going to obviously continue to support israel, make sure that they've got the tools they need to go after hamas but that we've got to work on trying to get some humanitarian pauses in place so that aid can get in and people can get out including our hostages. now, there has been some flow of additional trucks in today. not very many. less than 30, i think, made it into gaza today. which is just not good enough. and some additional personnel got out of gaza. we think that americans were in that group. we're still doing the count right now to see how many actually made it out. but again, we know there's a lot more work to be done. and that's why secretary blinken is over in the region right now. >> what do you understand to be the domestic political situation in israel about the hostages? i read of some protests against their own government, about not doing more to bring the hostages out before this escalation or intensification of the airstrikes. what is our government's assessment of sort of public support inside israel? >> well, again, i don't know that we're necessarily poised to talk about domestic popular opinion inside israel, but i can tell you that in the conversations that we've had with our israeli counterparts including at president biden's level with prime minister netanyahu, that there is a focus on trying to find those hostages and to try to find a way to get them out. now, we're working through all that with the israelis and with partners in the region to see what can be done. that's one of the reasons why, again, we're really pushing this idea of humanitarian pauses so that you can do it if you can get them and you can negotiate their release. and we're still working on that. you've got to be able to get them out safely and efficiently, and that means that geography itself has to be safe and secure for their safe passage. >> there's some reporting from my colleague richard engel about the civilians are trapped physically obviously where they are in great danger but they also don't know who to trust. they don't trust the israelis when they talk about safe passage. and to their point there have been bombings all throughout gaza. i wonder, it's clear that there's a channel to hamas through qatar. i mean, is that being used to reassure the civilian population that if they heed the evacuation warnings they will be safer? >> well, without getting into too much detail about diplomatic conversations that we are having, you're right, qatar has a channel, an open line of communication with hamas and they have been helpful to date in terms of helping get that small number of hostages out and other conversations we're able to have through them to hamas. again, i wouldn't speculate about how useful that channel's going to be in terms of assuaging the concerns of people in gaza in terms of their movement, but we are continuing to work with all our partners in the region to make sure that that aid can get in. and again, that's another reason why these pauses can be so useful, nicolle, is if it's not just to get people out it's also to make sure that aid is getting to where it's needed the most. and it's difficult for these humanitarian organizations to move the aid in to the neighborhoods that need it most when of course there's fighting around them. so that's one of the reasons why we're pushing on this pause. and we can certainly understand -- i mean, absolutely sympathetic to the idea that innocent palestinians in gaza are afraid to move. they're being told by hamas in many cases not to go. they're being told by the israelis to go. and it's certainly understandable, and we're sympathetic to the fact that they're confused and they're scared. and that's why, again, these humanitarian pauses can be so effective. >> we covered last week some reporting in the "new york times" about unmanned drone surveillance flights being flown by the pentagon, perhaps to help locate some of the hostages including the american hostages. there's also reporting in the "new york times" that cia director william burns is in israel or was in israel over the weekend. what can you tell me if not specifics, how involved is the united states government in bringing home the hostages, especially the americans? >> well, again, without going into the specifics, thank you for giving me a pass on that, i can tell you we're absolutely very, very keenly focused on this. and talking to partners again through the region -- in the region, especially partners who have vehicles of communication with hamas. we were glad to get those two americans out. as you know, that followed up by another two israelis. obviously, there are so many more, more than 240 that are being held hostage. we know there are still a small number of americans in that population. we want to get them out. so we're very actively working on this. but obviously we've got to be careful what we say publicly about the process and what that looks like. now, you're referring to the "new york times" story on the use of unmanned aerial assets. i can just tell you that we are doing everything we can to find where they are, to get information about their condition, and then to get them out and get them back to their families where they belong. and i'll beat a dead horse again here. that's why we are so keenly interested in these ideas -- the idea of a humanitarian pause every now and then, because again, once you find them, once you negotiate their release, you've got to have some confidence. and they deserve to have some confidence that they're going to be able to go from point a to point b safely and efficiently. >> one of the busiest humans in washington. national security council spokesman john kirby. thank you so much for joining us again. >> thank you. >> when we come back, an important conversation about the growing threat of antisemitism here and around the world. israel's top envoy for confronting and combating hate crimes against jewish people worldwide will join us at the table. stay with us. e table. stay with us ♪ students... students of any age, from 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chase mobile app. jen x is planning a summer in portugal with some help from j.p. morgan wealth plan. let's go whiskers. jen y is working with a banker to budget for her birthday. you only turn 30 once. and jen z? her credit's golden. hello new apartment. three jens getting ahead with chase. solutions that grow with you. one bank for now. for later. for life. chase. make more of what's yours. i've seen a lot of students who feel like they've been left behind by the university, and unfortunately reaction is to really bifurcate into an us versus them mentality. when i, you know, spoke about the things that i've heard from my peers who are jewish, anti-semitic incidents that have happened to them, i included incidents, things i've talked about from peers and others that are islam fobbic incident on campus. hate comes from a really dark place, but it can be countered with light. >> i played that because it stayed with me. that's yani kurtz, from columbia university, talking to us about the troubling rise of anti-semitism and islamophobia. it's part of a glol surge in hate crimes since the terrorist attacks of o 7th "the new york times" reports, quote, not since the holocaust which saw the annihilation of 2/3 of the community have the jewiidedn an atmosphere of fear, that it feels like a fundamental shift across their existence. bomb threats to jewish stores, jews speak of alarm as pro palestinian sentiment surges. joining me israel's special envoy for combatting anti-semitism. thank you so much for being here. we've tried to not make general statements but keep it personal, and yani was so powerful in telling us what his life has been like since october 7th. i live in new york, and i see the flyers of kidnapped babies torn down and ripped up, and i wonder if you can just speak to what's in the human, the human being that tears it down and thinks that that isn't worthy of whatever tribute was intended by hanging the flyer. >> i think what october 7th did was remove a lot of masks, that enabled to tear down the flyers and show us what students are experiencing on campus. in many ways, it is explosion that has happened for decades that enabled the mutation of an ancient, toxic hate, jew hatred, anti-semitism, to mutate and turn into the mainstream version we have seen explode, not only fueling the atrocities of october 7th but fueling the response to the atrocities of october 7th, that deny, justify, excuse, attack jews on the streets, university campuses, on social media platforms. it is that intersection of everything that really was exposed on october 7th that i believe we have to become keenly aware of because the new mutated form of anti-semitism, antizionism or the denial of israel's right to exist in any border is what is attacking students like yani on campus. if you were a jew/zionist/supporter of israel's right to exist. if you object to the cries from the river to the sea, which is a call to annihilate the state of israel, like the hamas charter does, the annihilation of the state of israel and the murder of jews, then we have seen this hatred come and rise from places in which it has developed for decades. it began with international institutions, the u.n. resolution, 1975, zionism, racism is alive and well on every single campus, including columbia. >> how do you make yoni safe? >> i think this is a moment of reckoning. a moment of reckoning for all of the societies that have been able, the festering, the mutation, the permeation of the new form of anti-semitism, including diversity, equity and inclusion principles on campus like columbia that are meant to be extended equally and consistently to all students, but, in fact, leave out yoni or margaret, it doesn't only have to be jews of course. the understanding this is a moment of reckoning that needs the utilization of when we have which is the definition of anti-semitism, the international holocaust alliance definition, the result of a long process that has been adopted by 40 countries, over a thousand entities. it is the first vital step for anybody that is genuinely committed to identifying and combatting anti-semitism. you can't identify something if you do not first define it and we have a definition, a definition that includes all of the strains of anti-semitism, be they holocaust denial or as i said, the modern mutated form of antizionism. >> how do you deal with the cultural problem we talked about, the feeling that if you -- it feels like in this country there's a partisanship and a chip to supporting israel. how do you deal with the cultural piece of this, that seems to be sort of enabling anti-semitism to flourish. >> you're 100% right, what has happened over time, the dehumanization, and the double standards that barred the individual jew from an equal place in society and enabled the atrocities of the holocaust, the likes of which we did not see until october 7th. that same process over decades has been the demonization, the delit mization and double toward the jewish state. >> the micro aggressions, and anti-semitism between the holocaust string together a belief system that made october 7th possible? >> 100%, and not only do they string together, they have come full circle. not only is israel that is dehumanized and applied double standards to but the individual jew is now demonized, delegitimatized and applied double standard to. if he is raped or burned or bludgeoned, it would be legitimate because he is not considered human. >> that was a feeling donny deutsch expressed. how important is it in your view to make clear that israel is for protecting every civilian life, and every palestinian life. how important is it to distinguish what a democracy and a state that is abiding by the laws of war does differently? >> this is the greatest tragedy, if you ask me, and i actually think that the -- i'd say the unconventional war for public opinion is being fought here on the ground, whereas israel is on the front lines of defending itself, and its civilians from the atrocities of october 7th. that unconventional war demanding moral clarity, encourage right here. the understanding that israel cannot fight in war alone, and if we understand deeply this is a war on our shared civilization, humanity, foundational principles of life and liberty, that false moral equivalence between a genocide terror organization, committed to annihilating the stays. one proxy of a genocide yal regime. if we understand the false moral equivalency between that and a democratic country that not only can but must defend its civilians and borders, that false moral equivalency enabled genocide terror that look forward to destroying our shared humanity and building on the rubble of our civilization, a new one that does not include what we value and cherish, the foundational principles of life and liberty. as much as i would say 10/7 is the gravest attack on jews since the holocaust that never-again understanding, future looking, prospective commitment to never again gives us not only the opportunity but the responsibility to ensure that we actually uphold that never again, knowing that never again is right now, and never again for israel means never again will we not be able to defend ourselves, but never again for israel's friends means never again will we be silent in the face of the false moral equivalence. >> thank you very much for coming here and having this conversation. thank you to all of you for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary and in some instances excruciating times. "the beat" for charles coleman, in for ari, tgs wonderful to see you in the chair. have a wonderful show. >> before you go, i've got to ask you a couple of quick questions. we have been watching this all day long, was this the donald trump that you expected to

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