president biden touting his administration's winds, and meanwhile it is day five of the former presidents fraud trial. the developments from court today, and a chaotic week on capitol hill, ending with no speaker of the house. the reality check from senators as house republicans scramble to find leadership. then, coming through the noise, an important conversation about transgender youth athletes, with a panel of experts. you are not gonna want to miss this. as the 11th hour gets underway on this friday night. . good evening once again. i'm stephanie ruhle. we usually do the nightcap on a friday, but we have got so much big news that we have got to break down, and later we have a very special conversation that you do not want to miss. but let's start with the big news, because we are big and very good economic numbers this morning. the labor department said the u.s. economy added 336,000 jobs in the month of september, president biden highlighting the better than expected number in a speech earlier this morning. >> the high share of working age americans in the workforce, in 20 years. it's no accident, it's bidenomics, we are growing the economy from the middle out, the bottom up, not the top down. >> the good jobs numbers come is the white house is making a whole lot of power positive headlines that impact every day americans, as well as our allies overseas. they include nine billion dollars for student debt relief, progress on drug price negotiations with big pharmaceutical companies, and diplomatic efforts to reassure our allies that the u.s. is still standing behind ukraine, despite the chaos among house republicans. meanwhile, on the other side of the aisle, the former president and current republican front runner donald trump is still dealing with a whole lot of legal problems. it was day five of trump's business fraud trial here in new york, where a former trump executives said allen weissenberg are, trump's longtime cfo, asked for help in committing tax fraud. and we found out financial statements contradicted golf course valuations. and trump is falling back on his most reliable and successful strategy, delay, delay, delay. today a judge refused to stay the new york civil fraud trial, but he did temporarily halt a judges order to cancel business certificates in trump's companies. i told you we had a lot to get to. let's get smarter with the help of our leadoff panel, and i'm only them to talk because i am fairly losing my voice. my friend john allen, senior national politics reporter for nbc news, glenn thrush, justice department reporter for the new york times, and harry litman, former u.s. attorney and former deputy assistant general. mr. allen, let's start with you. we'll talk about the split screen joe biden had a really big week of achievements, while donald trump sat in court, day after day, spouting lies on the courthouse steps, and his party, on the hill, is an absolute chaos. >> between the two, things between donald trump in court and what happened in the house, the mess that was on the floor the continues behind closed doors right now, there was a very good week for joe biden in terms of news, in terms of absence of news, in terms of political positioning, and i know they're a lot of people unless they were upset with him using this money to build more of donald trump's wall, but that will definitely below the issue for him heading into the next election here. and you head hunter biden, with his court case, they completely knocked out of the headlines. nobody paid attention to is you had this chaos unfolding on the house floor. so very good week for joe biden, in a pretty bad week for donald trump in terms of the broader general election, and as we know, though, he continues to defy gravity, politically, within the republican party, and seems to be cruising toward the nomination. >> john, let's talk about this one thing that does hang over us and president biden -- inflation. it's still a problem for every day americans. and it's very complicated for the white house. because on the one hand, it is great that we got that really good jobs report today. but we have to remember that the federal reserve has been trying to slow the economy to get inflation down. and as long as businesses continue to grow and continue to hire, that is not going to get cheaper in this country. how does the white house manage that? because they don't control it. >> it's very difficult, as you point out. their attention for points between inflation and interest rates, with the job market. and i think the difficult thing for any white house in a situation like this is you want people to be optimistic. you want to inject that optimism into markets. you want to inject optimism for consumers to help the economy get better. at the same, time you don't get caught telling people to not believe they are lying wallets. this is been a struggle for the biden administration. obviously the economy has been a mixed picture. one of the things that gets lost a bit when we talk about inflation is that you get the periodic reports of when inflation is doing, and if it falls a little bit quarter over quarter or year over year, they're sort of a celebration in washington. but what people feel is the aggregate of all of those pointers of inflation. so when they go to a restaurant or they take their kids out to shop or whatever, they feel appropriately that everything is so much more expensive than it was just a few years ago, and i think it's an incredibly difficult political situation for this white house, and any white house that is dealing with a mixed economy. >> it's a huge positive than inflation isn't going up anymore, but life is cheap, and people feel it. glenn, let's talk about this, because the president is out, they're working on policy, talking about the white house's achievements and what he is not talking about are the 91 charges against trump. do you think his political strategy will change as we get closer? i mean, it's easy to knock trump now. >> it has to. positive isn't selling anywhere in american politics right now. i'm in the media marquette on some virginia house races, virginia house and senate races, and there is not a single positive and in the entire lot. if you look at the polling, even some of the polling that fevers biden, you see this incredible level of pessimism that people have. and i think john is exactly right. you go into grocery stores in uc items that were two years ago four bucks another eight bucks. while you are seeing a inflation decreasing in times, actors many people are seeing this is a problem. i remember i cover the obama white house they had a similar issue right around the end of the financial crisis, where they were seeing a lot of, remember the whole green shoots argument, where they were seeing a lot of improvement in the economy, metrically, but people weren't feeling that way. and public sentiment, optimism, is an extremely lagging indicator. also, biden is not an especially dynamic messenger on this issue. he just isn't. whereas trump is an extraordinarily dynamic messenger on his issues. so i think you have kind of a perfect storm of difficult issues that the white house is having to face, even on a week where there's absolutely manifestly no doubt about which direction the new cycle is moving. and i think you working at sort of a structural issue, politically, that the white house is gonna have to struggle with, no matter how many indictments trump deals with, no matter how many great employment reports we have. this is going to be a challenge for biden, all the way through. >> donald trump might be a great messenger, but he's pushing lie after lie every day, and what joe biden has right now are a lot of good policies that are working for people across this country. harry, let's talk about donald trump and his fraud trial. what does this stay on his business certificates mean? its own like he's getting hooked up here. >> but look, the prosecutor was ready to do this anyway what it means is that if the judge and duran did two things, he said i voted against you summary judgment fraud is established and that's number one. also i'm gonna start yanking certificates from these companies that you control, giving them to receivers, et cetera. what happened today's is lawyer went up to the next level court and argued successfully. after you do this you cannot on scramble the eggs and let's just put this part on hold. and the judge agreed to put it on hold. now the a.g. of new york said we were gonna do that anyway so don't think it's such a big victory. this week was a bruising one for trump in court, culminating with a former comptroller, basically having to fess up to say he helped allen weissenberg, who testifies next, recommit fraud, and i would argue, we've been waiting. i think this fraud trial is one of the real things, meeting this has been the first week of the rest of donald trump's life. he is now in a trial that could really damage him. everything but take away his liberty, and we know he cares about it. so it's now, actually, begun. and there's four others on the horizon. all in all, rough week for him. you're right, at the end, he doesn't have to face immediately the unwinding of his llcs. >> can we stay on this point, glenn? again, maybe donald trump talks a good game at the podium, but how on earth does he come back from the testimony that we heard today, that allen weisselberg, the cfo for decades, openly asked for help to commit tax fraud. >> he doesn't. [laughter] . he doesn't. and again, i think that you are looking at a situation but is very much brief ignoring what we're gonna see in some of these federal cases. another development that happened today, a little more positively for trump was judge cannon got in florida put a stay, essentially, on the classified document process, which is going to delay that proceeding down there quite a bit. on the d.c. proceeding is moving really quickly. but you make a good point. there is a limited utility of him running up to the cameras. haven't covered this guy for a while, we cameras in the courtroom element of the civil trial in new york was a game-changer for trump. trump cares about image. and he was sort of sitting in the first couple of days, he was sitting in that courtroom, looking like just a regular defendant. which, between his lawyers, having to sit there and deal with what the judge and prosecution were dueling out. he hated that. so he felt compelled to counter program in a vociferous way. that, i think, really showed you the dilemma. this is the guy, this is a controlled image. he is somebody, if you recall, would listen to, would watch the play back of his sunday show appearance with the sound off, because cares what he looks like. and i think that does not portray him in a position of strength in a way that we haven't seen in federal proceedings yet, because there are no cameras in the courtroom. i think what you get this week was a real insight into what trump perceives's own weakness. he doesn't like being seen as being vulnerable, and as we're moving down this process, it's gonna be coming creasing the difficult for him to counter program. >> john, what do you think? >> i think glenn is absolutely right. donald trump looks weak or sitting in the courtroom where judge is dictating things and he's not speaking then he doesn't any other venue. these are bad images for him, and at the same time, he's got a pretty locked in based, so we'll have to see how these things play out, and we're still a long way from the general election next november, for the time being, and i think we'll watch the polls and see if there's any change within the republican primary if drones performance is any indication of future performance. >> harry, let's talk about trump's, motion to dismiss the federal election. he is claiming presidential immunity. he loves to claim that all over the place, and most times it does not apply. but could this maker to the supreme court? >> yes. in a word. and it is likely to make it to the court of appeals before it comes back. in other words, let's think about this in two ways. first, delay. because it's for immunity, under the law, it's likely, even when he loses, as i believe he will, in front of judge chutkan, he will be able to say, i'm not gonna wait till the end to appeal, i want to appeal it now, because the right i'm claiming is not to be in trial in first place. now goes to the court of appeals. he ought to win their. the precedent is strong. they're a couple of wild cards that have to do with some judges saying it will be okay. but this motion, most of his legal claims have been slapdash and really political. this is designed for conservative justices. it's got all the right kinds of sites and that sort of thing, so i don't think it's likely the supreme court will save him, but he's taking his best shot. if they want to think about it and take it answered in even if he loses, that's a year or more potentially, so from the delay standpoint, he's gonna get some delay in most important trial, which is now set for march, in terms of an actual hail mary, getting him out of jail free, as it were, i can see a bit of the best shot that i think he has, and the notion is clearly designed to appeal to the conservative justices on the supreme court. >> well, he certainly gonna take that shot, if we know trump. john allen, glenn thrush, harry lippman, thank you all for starting us off tonigh coming up, the warning from senators to their colleagues in the house about choosing more conservative speaker. our friend david jolly is here on the chaos in congress, and what could come next. and later, trans athletes is a hot and very polarizing topic, so polarizing people have questions the too afraid to ask. well, tonight, we're answering them. the 11th hour, just getting underway on friday night. rway on friday night i was stuck. unresolved depression symptoms were in my way. i needed more from my antidepressant. vraylar helped give it a lift. adding vraylar to an antidepressant... is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms... ...better than an antidepressant alone. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. report fever, stiff muscles, or confusion, as these may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. high blood sugar, which can lead to coma or death, weight gain, and high cholesterol may occur. movement dysfunction and restlessness are common side effects. stomach and sleep issues, dizziness, increased appetite, and fatigue are also common. side effects may not appear for several weeks. i didn't have to change my treatment. i just gave it a lift. ask about vraylar and learn how abbvie could help you save. >> republican house members have a lot to think about this weekend. next week, they start the process of trying to select a new speaker after booting kevin mccarthy. donald trump has weighed in and officially endorsed jim jordan of ohio and the race. senators from both parties are giving the house a serious reality check, warning that a more conservative speaker will not have any more luck pushing through legislation with the slim, slim margin that they got. that could -- back with me tonight to discuss, a true expert, former republican congressman, david jolly. he is not the chairman of the serve the america movement and is a msnbc political tribute are. david, these are your former colleagues. please give your assessment of where your party is tonight? >> well, in trouble. that is the is spent, in trouble. i think the framing of this, as you contrast it with senate republicans is a important one. ultimately, it is easy to realize that house democrats are in opposition to -- senate democrats is to joe biden, but really, steph, the greatest problem for house republicans's senate republicans did not actually want anything they have to offer. kevin mccarthy learned the, and the caucus learned that during the shutdown. so, how does that come into immediate play. it comes into immediate play because as they have this contest for the next speaker, it all has to be within the framing of what do they do with a budget negotiation in 45 days, because whomever the new speaker is for the republicans, is going to lose. they are going to face a major loss in their first 30 to 45 days, and how do they promised the caucus that they will lose that gracefully but continue to fight? it's a weird dynamic among the speaker candidates right now. >> okay, then how do you deal with this wrinkle? if the next thing that has to happen is how you keep the government open, what do you do with donald trump endorsement. donald trump now endorsing jim jordan, so in theory, that would make jordan easy favorite, but i could think of donald trump just a few weeks ago, let's go for a shutdown. what do we care, bloodlust-ing up. trump does not want it to stay open and function. >> yeah, and as president, i think he shut the government down for almost 30 days. we know that he is willing to do that. we know that jim jordan is willing to do that. i think the last 36 hours has been very predictable and seeing jordan and scalise emmert as the front runner. seeing trump endorsed jordan. what i suggest we see come out of this mathematically is, trump's endorsement of jordan likely knocks out scalise mathematically. but i don't think it puts a jordan over the top because even trump's endorsement is not enough for a couple of republicans. i think he sought to house republicans who voted to impeach donald trump. you have a couple who would never vote for donald trump or his candidate. because the margins are so slim, can jim jordan spoke at the 2:18? the one thing that will be different in this environment than january's republicans can have that conversation behind closed doors and know that their 218 votes before they go to the house floor. they don't have to expose all of their dirty laundry to the country and got through 15 votes on the house floor. they can wait until they have done it behind closed doors, go to the floor for once and vote. >> how long do you think that this would take? >> i think it is going to take a while because you have members who are demanding things that contradict each other. some are demanding real changes, some demanding impeachment, some demanding ukraine money, some demanding no ukraine money. the margins are too thin, which opens up this conversation, are there a handful of republicans today that would be willing to work with democrats? that is a far bridge to cross. those republicans might as will switch to the democratic party, if they are going to do that. i think we are looking at another couple of weeks before this all gets settled out. >> that takes me directly to my next question, and i realize how far this bridge is potentially, but house minority leader hakeem jeffries wrote a washington post op-ed earlier today, arguing to frame the bipartisan coalition to lead the house. do you see any scenario where that can actually happen? >> here is the interesting thing, steph, we are going to have coalition governing for the next 14 months, but both parties probably don't want to call it out. maybe hakeem jeffries ultimately will, but if you consider the that deal that got done, the cr that got done, if you consider the coalition it will take to govern for the next 14 months, it is going to be republicans and democrats, and the hard right will be angry about it. are we going to call a coalition government, who knows? i think this is where in the immediate timeframe, we do have to separate to a certain extent, the speakership race and the budget negotiation, because i think you do have 5 to 10 republicans willing to play ball with democrats on a budget deal, but that does not mean that they're willing to play ball with democrats on a speakership deal, and that is the family conversation that has to get sorted out. you might have these 5 to 10 republicans grow their law in behind maybe age in jordan, whoever the identified candidate is for speaker for republicans while also throwing their support in with democrats for some type of coalition to keep the government open. i think that is how the next 14 months will look as we face these cliffs time and time again. >> you know, there might be some days, david, where you miss being a member of congress. i am going to guess, definitely not tonight. always good to see you, thank you for joining us. when we come back, you cannot go anywhere, not tonight. a conversation it do not want to miss. transgender athletes. it is a polarizing topic in this country, and it is one filled with misinformation. tonight, we'll get to the truth. we will answer questions a lot of people have and they're too afraid to ask. when the 11th hour continues. continues struggling with the highs and lows of bipolar 1? 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(smelling) ew. gotta get rid of this. ♪tell me why♪ because it stinks. ♪have you tried downy rinse and refresh♪ it helps remove odors 3x better than detergent alone. it worked guys! ♪yeahhhh♪ downy rinse and refresh. every day, more dog people, and more vets are deciding it's time for a fresh approach to pet food. they're quitting the kibble. and kicking the cans. and feeding their dogs dog food that's actually well, food. developed with vets. made from real meat and veggies. portioned for your dog. and delivered right to your door. it's smarter, healthier pet food. get 50% off your first box at thefarmersdog.com/realfood get 50% off your first box here's why you should switch from chrome to duckduckgo. duckduckgo is a browser you download to your mobile and desktop devices. unlike chrome, the duckduckgo browser has privacy built-in. it comes with a private alternative to google search, which doesn■t spy on your searches, and it blocks cookies and creepy ads. and there's no catch. it's free. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you around. >> more than 400 bills join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on mobile and desktop today. targeting transgdepeople have been introduced nationwide. according to the equality federation, and with numbers like that, republicans might have you thinking that support for this group does not exist. but that is not true, not at all. in fact, there are a lot of people that do not understand that this is a very vulnerable group, and they deserve to have their voices heard and their stories told. so i sat down with folks who are experts on the subject. doctor jack turban, an assistant professor of psychologically -- psychology of adolescents in the university of san francisco. his education that focuses on transgender youth has been used in court cases. and then there is katie barnes, author of fair play, a sports shape at the gender debates and athlete chris mosier, one of the most successful transgender athletes in american history. we had a very important conversation that i am honored to share with you right now. >> doctor, when at the biggest issues, there is so much misinformation on the subject. there is this idea out there that kids are showing up to school on a monday after getting bullied and saying, it must be my gender. today, i am going to be able, or i am going to be a girl, or kids want to change their gender because it will make them more competitive in sports. is this happening? >> i think what a lot of people don't understand particularly for gender interventions, what people are concerned about, there is a very strict protocol for a doctor to ever prescribe that to a young person. that person we need to identify as transgender four of the six months to be criteria for the diagnosis of gender dysphoria. and that they would have to undergo a comprehensive psychological evaluation and get consent from their parents and the doctor. there is this media notion that it moves quickly, when in reality, it's a slow process. in terms of adopting a new gender identity for sports, i have never seen that happen. we are in california, probably one of the states with ali stigma towards trans youth, but there are still a lot. i have kids who are being bark as, a reference that all lgbtq people are furries are constantly harassed for being churns. they are essentially being sacrificed so much to play sports, given all the hostility they are fascinated that. i think it's not a realistic understanding of how schools operate. >> look, one at the issues is a lack of information. let's say a young boy wakes up and says, i am a girl, what is the next thing that happens? >> usually, not a lot. they might talk to their parents about the. it is also going to depend on the age of the adolescents. someone before puberty, then maybe that parent might want to talk to the school or a therapist, so they can understand what that means. for some very young kids, they are often confused about gender roles, what is sex, what is gender and someone can help them understand. they might realize that i am a cisgender people that likes salts, that is not an uncommon thing that kids realize they don't fit into gender roles. effects different kids who really do have a strong disconnect with their sex assigned at birth, in a way that feels important and salient to them. they begin their before a longer period of time. when they start puberty, they start having negative mental health habits on their bodies that don't align with who they are. that is what they might start this long process potentially of meeting with a therapist, getting on a long weightless, a client that way over a year to start talking about gender affirming medications. it is a slow process. >> chris, a lot of people out there want to be supported of the trans community, but when it comes to sports, youth sports, they get a little more squeamish and think, is that one right? should this be happening? how do you respond to them? >> this is really about is every person able to have their basic dignity and respect, just like everybody else. it's not fair for us to consider that we would treat a transgender girl from a girl from a am to three pm in her classroom and then say that she has to be a boy when it comes to sports. at the end of the day, this is about young people having the opportunities to learn all of the incredible benefits that come from playing sports with their and having the same opportunities as their peers, regardless on how they identify their gender. >> everyone deserves a chance to express themselves and have their dignity and be included, but role play with me. what do you say to that runner, that weightlifter who devoted herself to that competitive sport and has reached the top of the game and now fears or could be missing out on opportunities or scholarships because they say a trans athlete is stopping them from doing that? while, it white b one and 1 million, and they don't need legislation, what do you say to that young athlete? >> i am really happy that you brought up scholarships, because i think this is one of the things that we hear a lot from both athletes and, primarily, i'd say from their parents, or parents of young people, is this opportunity is going to be lost if transgender athletes are able to participate. the truth is, in mentoring transgender athletes and working with their families over the course of over a decade now, i have never met a young transgender person who has received an athletic scholarship to ncaa sports. this is one of the tactics that has been used to create fear in the sort of divisiveness between cisgender girls and women and the trans community. when, in fact, these attacks on transgender athletes, in attempts to prevent them from having the same opportunities as their peers, is really an attack to all women and girls. there are so many issues within women and girls sports that we should be paying attention to, like an equal access to opportunities, an equal pay, lack of media coverage, high rates of sexual assault and misconduct, which is incredibly important right now, as state legislators are trying to pass and have passed bills and law that would allow investigations and inspections of young people's bodies. what we really need to remember here is that being -- actually impacts all women and girls. we need to be protecting everybody within sports, particularly young people at this time. >> katie, your book is called fair play. talk to us about fairness, because you are standing on a sideline at a youth sports game right now, and you anecdotally here over and over, if there is a trans athlete competing, it's not fair. >> so, when it comes to fairness, i think one at the things happening is that we are simultaneously trying to have many different conversations. one of the things that i don't think people fully understand is that, when we talk about trans gender athletes and their desire to participate in sports, we are not just talking about olympic level athletes. the legislation that has passed around the country does not make the distinction between elite level athletes and in people. in fact, a lot of echoes out of its way to be as broad and affect as many athletes and as many young people, in general, as possible. consequently, we have legislation that is affecting kids as young as elementary school, but then also, in many of these laws, it's affecting their participation in collegiate, amara sports, which has nothing to do who is going to get a scholarship and who is going to win an olympic medal, and who will win a sectional championship or state championship in high school. when it comes to fairness, i think what has been stripped away from the conversation is stakes. what are the stakes? then, what is the appropriate policy to govern the level of sport participation that we are talking about. for the overwhelming majority of people playing school sports, their experience is going to be, k through 12, if they get to high school, a small number of athletes that we are talking about that compete at the level that chris does and ask throughout his career. so fairness is often, i think, a term that is being weaponized to justify broad base legislation, instead of having specific conversations about specific policy differences. >> katie, there is this assumption, for male to female athletes, they have the advantage, is that true? >> i think that is a hard question to answer. if the question is for those that are assigned male at birth, who go to testosterone driven poverty, did they receive a certain level of physiological and medical medical about -- metabolically advantages -- men on stronger than average, the answer to that is yes. the does not mean that somebody who is assigned male at birth is going to be a better athlete in all circumstances than any person who is assigned female at birth. that is ultimately what we're talking about. when you look at elite athletes, which i think is the purest distillation of the epic form, we know that, yes, elite male athletes are faster than elite female athletes, but that does not mean that seven-year-old cannot play soccer together all within under the same rules and without gender distinctions. >> chris, with these laws being passed, how would one even know if somebody competing is changed and or without doing something outrageously invasive? >> that is just a, and that is one of the problems with these bills and these laws is that it really subjects all women and girls to increased scrutiny at their bodies and of their gender presentation. we are seeing this play out across the country and around the world. there was a nine-year-old cisgender girl who was accused of being transgender by a parent. we are talking about a middle school check me, and a young person being accused of being trans and, therefore, being told that they don't belong in that sport, just because of their athletic performance, or because of their gender presentation. this is the reason why these bills are harmful to all women and girls, and we need to pay attention to the way that we are putting these restrictions and policing peoples bodies and expression, because you are right, there is no circumstance in this country or anywhere in the world, where we are allowing adults to inspect young peoples bodies or investigate their hormones are chromosomes to determine whether or not they can play school sports with their friends. >> doctor, without you having treated that nine-year-old girl, what does something with that due to a child just trying to play sports? >> yes, the one thing that has been difficult lately is that it's not even just the sport conversation. kates watch the news, they're on social media, so they hear politicians say things, like, you can't play sports with friends, you are physically dangerous to them, are you can't use the bathroom that matches your gender identity, because he will sexually assault someone. or you can have your medical care because you are actually just medically ill and in need to be changed. you know what you can't change is wrong and shameful. i think it's easy for us to understand how that would drive a lot of shame, anxiety and depression for these kids, even separate from kids interested in playing sports, because they're constantly and constantly hearing messages. the people signifying and telling them that they are dangerous. they might know on a conscious level that is not true, but it's hard to get out of your mind, if you're hearing it all the time. camille, the issue is what we should be talking about a saddle trans kids are being treated. we should wonder, why are these not just -- they know that they are not dominating sports leaks. >> everyone is sticking around. we'll continue this conversation right after this. ight after this. mr. clean magic eraser powers through tough messes. so it makes it look like i spent hours cleaning, and you know i didn't. it makes my running shoe look like new! it's amazing. it's so good. it makes it look like i have magical powers. magic eraser and sheets make cleaning look easy. if we want a more viable future for our kids, we need to find more sustainable ways of doing things. america's plastic makers are investing billions of dollars in new technologies and creating plastic products that are more recyclable. durable. and dependable. our goal is a cleaner, healthier planet for generations to come. for a better tomorrow, we're focused on making plastics better today. ♪ i have type 2 diabetes, but i manage it well. ♪ ♪ jardiance ♪ ♪ it's a little pill with a big story to tell. ♪ ♪ i take once-daily jardiance, ♪ ♪ at each day's staaart. ♪ ♪ as time went on it was easy to seee. ♪ ♪ i'm lowering my a1c. ♪ jardiance works 24/7 in your body to flush out some sugar! and for adults with type 2 diabetes and known heart disease, jardiance can lower the risk of cardiovascular death, too. jardiance may cause serious side effects including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, that can lead to sudden worsening of kidney function, and genital yeast or urinary tract infections. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking jardiance and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection, ketoacidosis, or an allergic reaction, and don't take it if you're on dialysis. taking jardiance with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. ♪ jardiance is really swell, ♪ ♪ the little pill with a big story to tell. ♪ >> joe dr. jack turban, chris mosier and katie barnes are still with me. i want to talking about funding, katie, because a tiny amount of change in their athletes, that this is even about, yet it's taking an enormous amount of time and attention that schools and communities are working on. most public schools out there are already struggling and underfunded. again, while it's for a small amount of people, we often hear, that there is this locker room issue. how do you address the locker room issue to those who say, well, trans people should not necessarily be in a different sex locker room, but schools don't have the money to build another locker room, how do you address these things. >> i think part of this conversation is ultimately a distraction. i think there is a concern for privacy in the locker room. i grew up playing pro sports, play basketball as a kid, a perfectly serviceable goal point guard at the varsity level at my high school. that was my experience. in the locker room, like in general, i am in favor of more privacy for everyone. i did not like communal showers. i don't think we should have them. i don't think that's a question about whether or not transgender people should be in a locker room space. what i hear, when i think about aspirations of locker rooms, bathrooms, it becomes a play on fear. there is a fear of sharing space with the unknown. in general, there should be stalls and private showers. if there are not, we should have the discussion about why there are not. i would imagine that muskets, regardless of their gender, would be in favor of more privacy, if they are not getting that currently. but in general, folks are in that space to do what they need to do, get dressed, go to the bathroom, take a shower, go home. >> doctor, when it comes to educating and informing kids about the question of gender, is there a right age to introduce these ideas? obviously, if a child believes that they might be, that is different, but we are talking about for a general population? >> yeah, i think there are different topics appropriate at different dot elemental stages. you will probably not talk about gender affirming surgeries to a 12-year-old. it's a particularly relevant. really, i think the goal in these elementary school years as you know that is a really sensitive period, during which kids develop south of steam issues. fake kid during the developmental period thanks, i am the only person like this, no one's like me, all i hear on the news is that people like me are wrong and our cassin society. those are the messages, those could stick with a person for life. to be able to have just some sort of communication in elementary school, you know, if there is a little boy playing with dolls and dresses to say, that is fine, some boys like playing with dolls and addresses. just taking away the stigma is what is important, more than anything. >> chris, is there an argument to be made that it is becoming too much of a focus? right, if i were a ten-year-old girl today, and i was a town boy, like i was then, would i be asking myself, am i in the wrong body? >> i don't think the issue of exposure is one that we should be worry about. what i mean by that is having representation and having positive role models from the trans community is not going to make someone be transgender. my presence, and me being a visible out transgender athlete, does not make a kid be transgender. it might just maxi themselves and see the possibility for themselves in this world, which is so incredibly important to the doctors point. i did not have that when i was a kid. when i was a young person, i never pictured myself getting married, having a job or a successful career. i cannot picture a version of myself past the age of 25. i had no hope, because i did not see an example of anybody like me doing what i wanted to do. if anything, i think representation and visibility is an incredibly powerful tool for social change and for people, all people, to see a possibility for themselves. when we are talking about young people here, more exposure to different types of people's net positive for everyone. there is no harm in any young tomboy or any young kid seeing representation in the trans community and thinking that they might be turned trans as well. being transgender is not contagious, and visibility and exposure does not make a young person be trans or queer or anything else. it just gives them options and hope. >> thank you so much for saying that. doctor, we often hear on the right, this argument that there are people out there who regret transitioning. is that true? it's actually happening with any real numbers? >> it's complicated. anytime that we talked to a family about starting medical intervention, it's something we talk about as a possibility that you will not want to do in the future, and the possibility of regret. most research we have is on the order of one and 2% of people stopping medications. one thing i would tell people to be careful about is if you ever see a research paper talking about the transition to be really careful about what that means. if you talk to adult trans people, we've done a research study, 27,000 trans adults, more than 10% of them had the transitioned in the past. most of that was because of stigma. people harassed them, they did not get a job, afraid of what life would be like if they were trans. you can call that the transition, but really it's a force the transition, whereas most people later in life transition again. if we look at regret, the rates appear to be quite low, a percent or two. i just want to remind our audience, it's a pathway. all of this takes a long period of time. it is not like your 14-year-old walking in and saying that they want to get their nose pierced or get a mohawk and heading out and doing it the next day. it is a long process with their pets and all sorts of medical professionals helping families figure this out. chris, i want to give you the last word, anything else you want to make sure that you share with our audience. >> thank you so much. it's so important that people zoom out here and really look at the issue at hand. what we are talking about has become a political issue. my identity as a trans person is not political. it has been politicized. these young kids across the country who just want to play sports with their friends are also being politicized, and they are being the targets of harassment and discrimination from adult lawmakers who have far greater issues to take care of right now. i encourage everyone to zoom out and look at the bigger picture here, which is that this is about kids trying to be kids and getting all the incredible benefits that young people receive for sport, and every young person should have the opportunity to get that. >> all right, thank you also much, i appreciate your time. on that no, i wish you all a good night. from all of our colleagues across the network of nbc news, thank you for staying up late with me. i'll see you on monday. on monday [city ambience sounds] [car screech] [car door slam] [camera shutter sfx] introducing ned's plaque psoriasis. 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