mccarthy. let's listen in. >> -- by sir name. >> the house will be in order. the clerk may call the roll. >> adams. >> yay. >> anna holt. >> no. >> nay. aguilar. yay. all force. >> no. >> nay. >> allen. nay. all red. yeah. amma day. nay. armstrong. >> no. >> no. bacon. nay. baird. nay. barr. nay. barragan. yeah. bean of bent. nay. berra. yay. bise. nay. biggs. yay. billa rackus. nay. bishop of georgia. yay. bishop of north carolina. yay. >> nay. >> nay. bloomen hour. yeah. blunt rochester. yay. boebert. >> no for now. >> nay. bona meche. yay. bost. nay. bowman. yay. boil of pennsylvania. yeah. nay. buck. yay. bourbon. no buzzinski. nay. berches. yay. burgees. nay. calvert. nay. cammic? cammic? cara carl. nay. carson. yay. carter of georgia. nay. carter of louisiana. yay. carter of texas. carter of texas? cartwright. yay. case. yay. castion. yay. castor of florida. yay. castro of texas. yay. chavez mccormick. yay. chu. yay. ciscomanny. nay. clark of massachusetts. yay. clark of new craig. yay. crane. yay. craig. yay. crane. yay. crawford? nay. crenshaw crockett. yay. crow. yay. curtis. nay. davis of kansas? yay. davidson. nay. davis of illinois. yay. davis of north carolina. yay. dean of pennsylvania. yay. dugget. yay. della cruz. nay. dell oro. yeah. dell penny. yay. dellusio. yay. desonnia. yay. de jolliet. nay. deesposito. no. diaz no. nay. duncan. nay. dunn of elsy. nay. emmer. nay. esco finstrom. nay. ferguson. no. finstad. nay. fish foster. yay. fushy. yay. fox. nay. lois frankel. yay. c. scott franklin. nay. frost, yay. fry, nay. fulter, nay. gaetz, yay. gallego. yay. garamendi. yay. garberino, nay. mike garcia. nay. robert garcia? yeah. garcia of illinois. yay. garcia of texas. yay. jimenez. nay. golden of maine, yay. goldman of new york, yay. gomez, yay. tony gonzalez. tony gonzalez? vicente gonzalez. yay. good of virginia. yay. gooden of texas. gooden of texas? gosar, nay. gottheimer, yay. granger, nay. grace of louisiana. nay. graves of missouri, nay. green of tennessee, nay. green of texas, yay. green of georgia, nay. griffith, nay. graw halva, nay. grossman, nay. guest, nay. guthrie, nay. hageman, no. harder of california. yay. harris, nay. harshberger, nay. hayes, yay. hearne, nay. higgins of louisiana, nay. higgins of new york, yay. hill, nay. heinz, yay. henson, nay. horseberg, yay. how chen, nay. houlahan, yay. hoyer? hoyer? yay. -- of oregon? yay. hudson, nay. huffman, yay. high zynga, nay. hunt? hunt? nay. issa, nay. ivy, yay. jackson of illinois. yay. jackson of north carolina. yay. jackson of texas, nay. jackson lee, yay. jacobs, yay. james, nay. jayapal, yay. >> if you've just joined us i want to make clear that what we're watching for. it is 4:19 and they have to get through the end of the alphabet. numbers on the right of the screen are your counts. 98 yet votes to remove kevin mccarthy. there are 95. the number to look for it 214. at 214 members, they would be the republicans would support mccarthy were to vote no, he would survive. we're not doing to make my predictions because this is happening right now as we watch. but so far, six of those republicans have already voted with the democrats to remove speaker mccarthy. now in terms of the history being made right now. it is been since 1910 since anyone filed a motion to vacate the speaker. in 1910 it failed. again, we don't know how this vote is going to turn out. which is why we're going to listen in. but we want to bring if ali vitali since they started voting if there are any surprises? >> nicolle, one of the key names i was looking for earl any alphabet and i'm having redux from january when it sounds a whole like what we're listening to now. but ken buck was one of those that when we went into this motion to vacate vote, we thought maybe he might vote yes and ultimately he did. that was one of the ones that was unclear to us. but now of course we know the way he's voting. the next name as we're going through the alphabet in a we don't know how they'll vote but they teased that could vote to oust the speaker is congresswoman nancy mace. she voted to proceed on this to motion. now it is unclear how she'll vote when it comes to whether or not to oust the speaker. the rest of them, though, these other five who have already voted yes to ousting the speaker, are not entirely surprising. you've got matt gaetz, bob good, many of the consistent rabble-rousers within in conference who have been regular thorns in the side of mccarthy. gaetz is the reason why we're in this position. he's the one that has threatened and filed the motion to vacate. the fact that matt gaetz had to put forward his last speech not from any of the three republican podiums in that house chamber, but from the democratic side of the chamber tells you everything about how his republican colleagues feel about him right now. there is so much frustration. i have heard from members who are livid. who have called gaetz and his allies deranged. republicans by enlarge are extremely angry at the fact that this is what they're majority has been turned into. nevertheless, this is the reality. what could happen next, because it does seem that mccarthy is on track to be vacated, what could happen next is we go back to the drawing board. because at that point we're in unchartered territory. >> ali, i could see you at your location, just wave your arms if anything in your view note ab happens. we'll be listening in the j's when we broke in and we'll go back to listening. >> lee of california. yay. lee of florida, nay. lee of nevada, yay. lee of pennsylvania, yay. ledger fernandez, yay. lessco, nay. letlow, nay. levin, yay. lu, yay. lofgren, yay. loudermilk, nay. lucas, nay. luke meyer, nay. luna. luna? la trel, nay. lynch, yay. mace, yay. magaziner, yay. malliotakis. nay. mann, nay. manning, yay. massey, nay. mast, nay. matsui, yay. mcbeth, yay. mccaul, nay. mcclain, nay. mcclennan, yay. mcclintock, nay. mccollum, yay. mccormick, nay. mcgarvey, yay. mcgovern, yay. mchenry, nay. meeks, yay. menendez, yay. meme, yay. muser, nay. nfume, yay. miller of illinois, nay. miller of ohio, nay. miller of west virginia, nay. miller meeks, nay. mills? mills? mullinaro, nay. mullinar, nay. moony, yay. moore of alabama? nay. moore of utah, nay. moore of wisconsin, yay. mir and, nay. morelli, yay. moskowitz, yay. multon, yay. mervan, yay. mullin, yay. murphy, nay. nadler, yay. napolitano, yay. neil, yay. neguse, yay. nells, nay. newhouse, nay. nicolle, yay. norcross, yay. norman, nay. nun of iowa, nay. onnerholty, nay. alexandria ocasio-cortez, yay. ogles, nay. omar, yay. owens, nay. pellone, yay. palmer, nay. pineda, yay. pathos, yay. paskerel, yay. payne, yay. pelosi? pelosi? peltola? peltola? pence, nay. perez, yay. perry, nay. peters, yay. pederson, yay. flurrier? nay. >> we are watching along with you this historic vote to oust, to remove speaker kevin mccarthy. the numbers rack up over there, keep in mind that to stay, kevin mccarthy would need 214 noes, alternately, to be ousted, 214 members would have to vote yes. so far we have seven republicans who have voted against the rest of their caucus to oust him. its members congress gaetz, good, and mace and crane and buck and bigg and burchette. david jolly is watching along with us. your thoughts? >> my thoughts are now around math. democrats would have to break to support mccarthy if they supposed to hold. democrats have appears in unison to say no. so we very well may be heading to a mccarthy leading the speakership. i think broadly speaking nicolle, this is inevitable since he secure the speakership after 15 votes for several reasons. one is the small margin that republicans won the '22. it was supposed to be a red wave and it wasn't and mccarthy was left with a slim margin and then to become speaker had to give away a lot of rules which has allowed to this moment. but two own reasons why this stay has been inevitable. one is mccarthy made too many promises to too many people that he couldn't keep and that appears to have burned too much bridges for him. he broke promises that he made to become speaker and that is at heart of this motion to remove him. and the last reason has been the ability, is he did not curry any favor with democrats during his ten months at speaker. he demonized democrats. he launched an impeachment. he called them socialists. he refused to participate with the january 6 investigation. he did all of the things to remind democrats that kevin mccarthy, though he walks around with a smile, is really no different than the leading hard right republicans like jim jordan and james comer and matt gaetz himself. kevin mccarthy today got caught up having made too many promises with too little friends and it looks like he will indeed lose the speakership if these votes continue. >> the irony is unwith of the things that he gave away to obtain the speakership after that 15 vote effort to do so was this. the single member being able to introduce a motion to vacate. we are joined now by democratic congresswoman jasmine crockett of texas who was just inside for that vote. c has already voted. if you want to share with us how you voted. we know how you voted. we were watching. but take me inside of what this feels leek. it is inevitable, but it is historic all the same. >> yeah, well, first of all, it is great to be here with you, but it definitely feels like groundhogs day. it looks like we're going to go round and round and round. and i was listening to ali talk and she said that matt gaetz brought us and i agree with david jolly. the other person that brought us here with speaker mccarthy. mccarthy is the one that empowered gaetz to this extent. he could have entered into a power sharing deal with the democrats and honestly made sure that we didn't continuously bring the american people to the brink of disaster before actually deciding to govern. you know, right now we're in a situation where we're looking at one party implode. this is a republican on republican fight. mccarthy has proven to show that he doesn't want to make sure that he honors his word when it come to our president and honors his word when it comes to us. nor has he honored his word with those in his caucus. he's the one that has created this disaster. and i don't want the rhetoric to get far away from that. mccarthy made his bed and it is now going to be time for him to lay in it. >> congresswoman, what do you believe will happen if there are sufficient votes to remove kevin mccarthy in the immediate aftermath? >> so my understanding is that there is an envelope, this envelope will be opened and it has a name that mccarthy tendered in case of an emergency. this is one of those situations. so there will be someone else that will be appointed to handle these votes. but we'll go around and around and around. there will be those that will engage in conversation with mccarthy and in an effort to try to get something out of this deal. the problem that mccarthy has right now is that no one trusts him. so, how do you end up making sure that your inking a deal that is actually enforceable and i think that is the big question mark. so, he's right, he's not come to the democrats for help at all. so, he's going to have to fight this out with his far right flank because they are the ones that have the numbers. i do have one suggestion for them, we could always have a speaker jeffries. and i promise you, we could get things done in a bipartisan way. but that just sounds too good to be true. at least for now. >> well hope springs eternal. that is why we all stay riveted to the action in the united states capitol. we appreciate you jumping on and literally in the midst of this historic vote. let's listen back in. >> tenny, nay. teniadar, yay. thompson of california, yay. thompson of mississippi, yay. thompson of pennsylvania, nay. tiffany, nay. timmons, nay. titus, yay. talib, yay. tack utah, yay. tonko, yay. torres of california, yay. torres of new york, yay. trahan, yay. troen, yay. turner, nay. underwood, yay. valdao, nay. vand drew -- >> somebody pull the fire alarm. no. >> nay. van dine, nay. van orderen, nay. vargas, yay. vasquez, yay. veasey, yay. velazquez, yes. wagner, nay. wahlberg, nay. waltz, nay. wassermann schultz, yay. waters, yay. watson coleman, yay. webber of texas, nay. webster of florida, nay. win strop, nay. westerman, nay. weston, yay. wild, yay. williams of georgia, yay. williams of new york, nay. williams of texas, nay. wilson of florida, yay. wilson of south carolina. >> from my heart, no. >> nay. whitman, nay. womack, nay. yacum, nay. zinke, nay. mccarthy, nay. >> i've got to go through these. >> house will be in order. the clerk will now call the names of members that have not already been recorded alphabetically. >> banks, nay. bush? bush? cammic, nay. carter of texas? carter of texas? tony gonzalez, nay. gooden of texas? gooden of texas? luna? luna? mills, nay. pelosi? pelosi? peltola? peltola? >> we are sticking around for some of the housekeeping to see if anyone should change their vote. but the history has been made. for the first time in our country, keb mccarthy has been ousted and his tenure as speaker started in the most unseemly manner thinkable. and in the days after the insurrection he traveled to mar-a-lago and resuscitated one donald j. trump and then went through 15 rounds to ascend to the speakership. and one of the things that he gave away in those 15 rounds of voting was the power to do what just happened. to have the speakership vacated by one member's objection. that one member today was matt gaetz. ali vitali, take me through your reaction to this historic vote? >> this is truly stunning and i'm glad that you talk about it as the culmination of mccarthy's speakership because it did feel back in january that this is always where it was going to go. whether or not the motion to vacate would have succeeded, when i talked to congressman gaetz yesterday prior to him filing this motion, he didn't even think that this was going to succeed. and so of course the fact that it has is extremely notable. i do think that we would be in this position even if mccarthy had been made it a one person motion to vacate because there were eight people who ultimately voted to vacate here. when we started the day, we could count to at least five. and so it felt like within his conference, although he has and he has repeated this, 95% of hi members support, he doesn't have a handful of them and in this case that is enough. now in terms of what happens, we're in uncharted territory but we have a good sense. we'll listen to how this plays out on the floor. but what we expect is that the house won't ever be without a speaker in this case. and it wouldn't look like it did in january when there was no speaker elected and thusly no rules. unfortunately, you won't see the return of c-span cameras around the chamber. there is a functioning rule set already for this congress. just because mccarthy is not speaker, that doesn't change. but there is a list that is given in secret, we don't know who is on this list, of names that mccarthy has previously provided to the people who run the floor -- >> let's listen. they're speaking about this now. let's listen? >> the resolution is adopted without objection, the motion to reconsider is laid on the table. the office of speaker of the house of the united states house of representatives is hereby declared vacant. >> ali, just wow. >> yeah. i had an audible wow there, too, nicolle. because that is us witnessing history together there. it is really, really stunning. i think as i'm thinking about what this means here, yes, we'll look to see who the person is that is in stalled as a speaker pro tempore, because that is likely coming either from the list that mccarthy has provided or through some other mechanism. and then we'll see. congressman burchette, one of the republicans told our team in the hall that he images that what this is is they go back down and in the bowels of the capitol and once again they have a family meeting. and i don't think that mccarthy is going to be able to change any of these minds as we hear them calling the house to order. i think it is, you know, we'll be listening and see where they go next with this, but i could tell you from our team in the chamber, mccarthy has a smile on his face. he was waiting tor them to gavel and in the next few minutes we'll see members come down the stairs and we could start getting some actual reaction to the fact that of these members unwillingly on the republican side were a part of making history today as eight republicans voted with all democrats who stood in unity to oust speaker kevin mccarthy. and this is despite republican members calling around to some handful of house democrats in the words of one source to me, begging them to help save mccarthy's job. mccarthy himself was not part of those treaties as far as we know. but the fact that his alleys were doing it for him and it still landed here is stunning. >> ali, since you've been reporting on our air, they have announced that patrick mchenry will be the speaker pro tempore. any surprise there for you? >> no surprise there. especially because the way that this works, is that these are mccarthy's names that he trusted the most. mchenry has long been a close ally of the speaker at every inflection point, the debt ceiling, negotiations over the government shutdown. mchenry was one of a tight group of mccarthy allies that was in the room and negotiating with the speaker and negotiating on his behalf. mchenry was essential during the whipping process during the first 15 rounds of balloting to get mccarthy this job in the first place. he said he doesn't want this job. but certainly now seeing him there, at least we know if not mccarthy, then who? and again this is not the republican conference putting forward mchenry's name. this is mccarthy himself. but now at least we know who the speaker will be even in a temporary sense. and in terms of going forward, they could launch into another balloting round and mccarthy could put his name forward again. this shellacking might have been one he was willing to take and wig to press forward. but we don't know what the next step is for mccarthy specifically, nicolle. >> david jolly, let me bling you floor this conversation. i mean, as ali is saying that, i'm thinking there is not much left to give away until we down to organs. he gave away every function of the speakership in those 15 rounds. yu thoughts on where we go from here? >> yeah, two primary questions. one, can the house organize, very much like january. as ali pointed out, there are rules in place. but you don't have a governing majority until you could elect a speaker that provides leadership. so can the house organize? and that is largely a question for republicans. the slim majority remains, the dynamics remain the same in terms of the arsonist remain th terms of the arsonist caucus versus the governing caucus. so can they organize. and secondly, what does kevin mccarthy do? there has been some historical precedent for speakers who lose the speakership, leaving the office. kevin mccarthy could just kind of let somebody else try to take control of the caucus. he might well stand for election again. it seems possible he could get the votes given that now more than the requisite number to oust have voted is made their intentions clear mccarthy. all eyes point to who would be suck sort. the feel i have, social security just a feel, we had the revolt against newt gingrich. we had the revolt against boehner. at times you reach for that unknown candidate. fds then this case, you might actually just follow down to scalise and gaetz has already spoken kindly of scalise although he's undergoing medical treatment. there may a way to do this quickly, but who knows. if mccarthy decides to stay and fight, all his al lice stay with him. >> let me turn to the democrats. it was your public counsel to them yesterday to do what they did today. not to throw kevin mccarthy a lifeline. i was monitoring some of the right wing commentary and one of the accounts said, this is a fight between two maga figures. even on the far right, gaetz and mccarthy have different tactics inside the chamber. in terms of their to trump, both are in the winners circle there. >> that's right. i draw comparison between kevin mccarthy and jim jordan. the only difference is kevin mccarthy wears a suit jacket. he walks around with a smile and looks like he came out a facial, so somehow he's more approachable. but his politics are exactly the same ideologically. he also has carried the authoritarian agenda of donald trump and trumpism and gaetz and jordan and all of those others. so for democrats, my point would be you're no worse off than you were yesterday. you're probably better off because you have more leverage and strength. whomever follows kevin mccarthy, if it he does not return, let's say it's a jim jordan, perhaps it could be a speaker jordan, changing the speakership does not change the dynamic between the house, senate and white house. joe biden is still a president. and senate republicans don't like the direction of house republicans, so there's very little that house republicans can do in the next 13 months, even under a new more aggressive maga speaker, but again, even an aggressive speaker, it's different style, not just politics. kevin mccarthy has not been a friend to democrats. it's important to remember that today. >> the other thing i remember and sometimes remembering every whiff and blow is a detriment. sometimes i'm glad i remember matt gaetz appearance on fox news, and i remember him going on while we were covering these votes and telling tucker carlson there was nothing left to ask for. and i think it's just important to remember something that the congressman has said. that we're not here because of matt gaetz, we're here because of kevin mccarthy. this is something kevin mccarthy handicapped himself with. in terms of not being able to lead and wanting the title so badly he gave away the ability to govern the chamber. i wonder your thoughts on how democrats have united, been strategic and have left the republicans looking like the one chamber they control is one they can't actually control. >> one day, a writer is going to write about power. because i can't agree more with what david has talked about here. this was inevitable. and he laid those seeds and watered those seeds on the way to him trying to get to power. and some of his insiders, a couple insiders that democrats, some who a couple days ago we're talking about maybe the deal is struck. we'll listen and see if there's a deal struck. maybe we'll vote present, but this morning, i think he unfolded it from what i hear behind the scenes where the democrats were reminded of kevin mccarthy after they save him with their vote to keep the house open. he then immediately went on television, stabbed them up and trashed them. so they were very clear that they could not trust this person, not only could not trust me with someone who would back stab them at the first chance, they were absolutely not going to cut any kind of deal with them. so they stayed strong. i also would be remissed if i didn't say that look at the difference. and again, david is right. you'll see a change in face, but you're not going to see a change in politics. and i'll remind people that it's not both sides. congress isn't broken. the republican side congress is broken. with a very slim majority, nancy pelosi was able to keep things moving, keep the house in order and move transformative, historic pieces of legislation with just a slim majority. and so this isn't about sort of congress being broken. this is about republican party under donald trump being broken. which by the way is going to be interesting seeing for us later on this afternoon when we can have two sides of hearing mccarthy going down on one side and the leading candidate for republican nomination on trial in new york on the other side. >> i mean, that split screen, there's breaking news on that story too. for the first time in any of his legal issues, a gag order has been posed on the other side of the split screen. no one is going anywhere. we're going to muddle through all of this together. the history that has been made today, an extraordinary development for republican party hell bent on annihilaing the norms. they now seem to be eating their own. kevin mccarthy has been ousted as speaker. one time in our country's history, the year was 1910, a motion to vacate was introduced. it failed. this is the first time ever that it has passed. the speakership that kevin mccarthy seemed to do everything and anything to get is something that today about 12 minutes ago he lost. let me bring into our break news coverage the sbektive producer from the recount, john heilemann is with us. your first thoughts? >> well, my first thoughts that you got, you got this tiger by the tail here. i think one of the things cornell was saying at the end of the last segment is there's history. the split screen that we have seen unfolding today we're seeing a split screen maga meltdown in a way. you could argue that donald trump and kevin mccarthys was the most powerful, the most powerful republican elected office holder in the country. donald trump the most powerball republican in the country. both of them melting down in different ways. losing his position and trump behaving so abomb na babblely in the courtroom that he had that gag order slapped on him. i think one of the things, this is what cornell was alluding to, there is a lesson here, we have a lot of discussions and we'll have them for days going forward about the analysis of was mccarthy too moderate or was he too establishment for his caucus. in some ways, he was much more maga than we sometimes a lot of republicans think. you remember among all the things that mccarthy did, he decided to give tucker carlson access to the january 6th footage in order to try to undermine history and truth on that front. there's nothing more maga than that. did he go too far, all of those strategic caculations, the main thing that i feel about it watching it, not only is it true this was always sort of damage over his head, given the narrow margin and ten wous hold on thiz job, had he just demonstrated from day one the thing that always kills you in politics, which is weakness. and everyone looked at mccarthy from the moment he got in and said, this guy can be had. he can be rolled. the way he got the job demonstrated that he would do anything to get this job, except have some actual believes. some actual convictions, some actual sense of who he was and what bottom line was. what was the line in the sand he would not cross. as soon as you convey to your hostage takers, to the people who hold your fate in their hand, as soon as you convey you'll do anything to appease them, you're doomed. you might not be doomed that day, you might be two weeks or two months, but i think kevin mccarthy told matt gaetz effectively in the way he got the job and the things he was willing to do, he told matt gaetz, he conveyed to him that he could be had. he could be rolled. no one who aspires to lead a political party or a caucus of a political party in a legislative body, let alone a chief executive, no one who conveys that kind of weakness is long for that world. >> it's such a good point. and for all that has been destroyed in our politics, the idea that some semblance of strength is more appealing than no semblance of strength is something that is still true. and i want to ask about hakeem jeffries. it seems he had a decision to make in leading his caucus. and there might have been temptation to blame the devil we know is the better than the devil we don't know. it did not happen. so the other side of this power trait of historic weakness and calculation that john heilemann artfully papted just now, the office is what with saw from leader jeffries. >> i think that's right. i said for years, trying to oversee house democrats is like herding cats. they are all over the police. but what i think what you have seen, and he's learned this from speaker pelosi, he's been able to keep his caucus in order. and earlier on, there was a lot of back and forth. maybe if you cut a deal, but clearly, leader jeffries has done a very good job of keeping everyone in line. but again, he was helped by mccarthy himself, who again, i was surprised at how clyburn came out earlier. saying how theyen couldn't trust hem, as soon as they helped them secure the deal to keep the government open, he went around on television and trashed them. that seemed to really cut house democrats in a unique way and they were reminded of that earlier today. a the a meeting. so he actually helped leader jeffries keep his caucus in order by his misbehavior. >> and weakness. i need all of you to stick around with us. if anyone is just joining us, it's just after 5:00 in new york where an historic vote has just taken place on the house floor. kevin mccarthy is speaker no more. he has been ousted in a move led by the far right members of his own party. eight of them and all democrats just voted to remove kevin mccarthy as speaker. mccarthy ascended the speakership just nine months ago after 15 hew milluating votes that included a brawl on the floor. he made numerous concessions, one of them being the lowering of a threshold that would allow only one member to initiate a vote to remove him. which has brought us to what just happened. so where we stand right now, patrick mchenry of north carolina is now the speaker pro tem power. and the republican party has been torn apart. the congresswoman told us in the last hour that kevin mccarthy made his bed, and quote, now it's time for him to lie in it. let's bring in congressman jerry conley of virginia. there's so much to get to, but first, what is your sense of what happens now in the next several hours? >> i think the two party caucuses will meet in the morning and try to figure out who are going to be the candidates. our kapt is candidate is going to be hakeem jeffries. on the republican side, i don't think there's any clarity at all. how did they get to 217 to elect a new speaker. they couldn't get to 217 to get to kevin mccarthy to become the speaker. they are in a real difficult position in trying to find somebody who can merit the majority. that does open the door for a cross party cooperation in a new sort of frontier here in the house of representatives. >> what was it like to watch this? there was something surreal about the impassioned defenses of mccarthy. and then the constant rebutting from a mobile matt gaetz to the arguments in defense of their own leader. i think the republican party at every fork in the road has chosen antidemocratic moves and they have made excuses for donald trump every step of the way, and the political fallout that ensues is deserve of it. it is painful to watch an esteemed body descended to what happened today. how do you reconcile those two things? >> you make a really good point. they are enablers. and they got hoist on their own today with that enabling. they all the voted for the rule reduced the numbers of members required to move to vacate the chair from 15 or 20 to 10 to 5 to 1. and they voted for that. and they in doing so guaranteed the instability of their caucus going forward. and made sure that their speaker kevin mccarthy was living on borrowed time. that was inevitable. the other piece with extreists who are not committed to the institution fubsing, they are quite the opposite. they want to blow it up and see traditional ways thrown out the window and don't have a plan of their own. so making deals with them was going to bite you back at some point. and that point arrived today. in a really dramatic way. unfortunately, for kevin mccarthy, he never gave any reason for democrats to support him, and sunday he went on the sunday talk shows and trashed the democratic majority that allowed had him to pass a bill through november 17th. to actually trash the people that helped you two days before a critical vote, and that's the last resort you've got. you need those democratic votes, or some of them, if you're going to survive the erosion of republican support in your own caucus. that was a self-destructive act. that kind of understanding is hard to know why he would do that, what possessed him to do that on the very eve of his critical vote to try to survive the speakership. >> your leader having a very different tiend of tuesday. unity, clarity, and it would seem in terms of making an argument about who is in the chamber to govern and who is the sort of functioning as a united governing body, it is the democrats in the chamber. can us inside his leadership over the last 72 hours. >> i was really impressed and proud of hakeem jeffries. i wasn't sure, where would they come out on this. would they actually throw a lifeline to somebody wholacks integrity and violated every value we care about as a caucus, or would he take this moment to hold kevin mccarthy accountable. i think hakeem listened and acted. and he had clarity that if we're going to change things around here, it's not by enabling the speakership of kevin mccarthy. it's to have a fresh start. he managed to under the um brel will will of the wavering and we had a uniied front. that was decisive vote that defeated the motion to table, that is to say get off the motion to vacate and then to allow the motion to vacate to proceed and prevail. i think jeffries played an historic role, a very possibility role, and i think he's opened a path to healing and more bipartisan alliances and collaboration than would have kevin mccarthy. >> i want to bring david jolly back into the conversation. i think you were the first one to say, at least in my hours, that kevin mccarthy would not last very long. i think you flagged this concession as the hand that fed him and the hand that would bite him in the you know where. and it was your wise counsel jed that democrats do what they did today. i want to talk more. john heilemann made this great point that in some ways this was the first post pelosi test for jeffries, and it would appear by his members and democratic operatives that by all measures and all analysis, he passed it and then some. >> a remarkable dynamic within the democratic caucus. i think he was giving us insight to that. this was the moment for hakeem jeffries where he would demonstrate being a house speaker should they have the maujty. and what's fascinating about the dynamic, the results. jeffries ultimately as leader said we want our caucus in line. he didn't have to do that. he could have said vote your con shebs, but he said, we have made the determination as a caucus we want everybody in line. and then the hand to nancy pelosi being a supportive but very strong and stern hand, her comments today saying it is not our job to help kevin mccarthy, the house will be in order. it's republicans' responsibility. she did so as that wise counsel and it was a leadership moment for jeffries. the unity among democrats is a remarkable thing to watch. we talk about the small margin that pelosi had when she was speaker. there was a cycle where aoc and the squad came in. they wanted to test their leverage. but ultimately, nancy pelosi without punishing them, brought them along. you see a unified democratic caucus today. and contrast t a republican caucus that today has crumbled and fallen apart. because kevin mccarthy lacks the leadership skills to keep his caucus together and because the republicans have decided to pull the pin and blow the whole place up. >> this does d not blow up on the right because of a different ideology. this did not blow up on the right because they have different views about threatening judges. this did not blow up on the right because some of them are on the other side of dra coin cohn yan laws to ban prereproductive health cares, that a majority of people are voting against. this did not fall apart because even though they are saying on television there's no evidence to impeach president biden, they are proceeding any way and disagree on that. this fellow part over tactics, on the very technical parts of the job, this didn't fall apart because there's a moderate faction in the caucus. it's so important to remind people of that. >> the tactics to achieve conservative results were ultimately what was being tested today. those tactics came with promises. kevin mccarthy, as i alluded to earlier, made too many promises to too many people. and here's what i think is very unique about how he ended up in this moment. kevin mccarthy, if anything, is kind of a master mind political animal. he knows every single district, every single member, and he knows what members need. that was his rise to power for a decade. he would take care of members. when i was elected in the special election, i baim the most junior member of congress. i was just elected in the middle of a term. he asked to see me. i thought, wow, a majority leader wants to see me. he gave me a $5 check. i said what's that for? he said i want to be supportive. how can but supportive of you? he said just don't cause me any problems. that was a promise he was trying to make to me. he was trying to be helpful. for others, he would go to a district or a committee assignment. what he did wrong to become speaker, he made promises about tactics and legislation and conservative achievements that there was no way he could achieve. with a democratic senate and joe biden in the white house, he made promises that there was no way he could accomplish. as you and i sat at the desk in january,s that was one of the themes. how is he promising to cut the deficit and reduce the debt and achieve border patrol and all this stuff that is republican-only priorities, in the end he could never honor those promises, which make it is hard to consider a return to power and stand for speaker again in the coming days. >> congressman, if if you're still with us, i want to give you the last word on this part of the conversation. i want you to make predictions about how long this dynamic keeps the republicans where they are now, without a permanent speaker. >> i think there's a risk here of weeks of rattling and possibly more. i don't see somebody riding out on a white horse and saving the day. i think the fishes in the republican caucus run deep. and run, there's going to be a reckoning among themselves tomorrow morning when they look at the wreckage left on the floor of the house by a particular part of their caucus and there are going to a lot of hard feelings. bringing them together around a single candidate is going to be a tall, tall order. and it's not going to happen quickly. i do believe, and i want to effect coat what i think the congressman talked about, it is a combination of what happened today. welcome of integrity, your word has to mean something here, and weakness. prettying from weakness. pandering to the loudest element is not a way to lead. and plants the seeds of self-destruction. i think we witnessed a great tragedy today in terms of kevin mccarthy's self-destruction. >> so profound and so simple, but it's exactly what happened. kevin mccarthy is sort of the house republican 2023 version of exactly that. congressman on these huge days, it's a pleasure and a privilege. thank you so much for making some time for us. >> thank you. i want to come back to john heilemann. your very smart observation that this was the first big very public broadcast wall to wall test of his leadership and it's my sense i think it's yours, that he more than passed it. >> he did. it's worth saying because it might not be totally obvious, how difficult and it's like herding cats, sometimes herding cats. it's a very difficult job. trying to keep them together. so the impulses that the democrats have in these situations, there will have been people who say they are not trying to help kevin mccarthy, but there will be democrats who said let's use this to cut a deal. we'll support mccarthy or we'll vote present to help mccarthy in order to get ukraine aid. something very valuable thing. they could have gone that direction. another analysis would have been let's -- we can't trust mccarthy, we don't like working with him. but the next goon is going to be worst. so maybe we should stick with the devil we know rather than the devil we don't know. the moderate factions of the party, who think of themselves as institutionalists, and again in some cases, foolishly look at kevin mccarthy -- they don't see an institutionalist. they know he's reeked havoc on the house, but it's just not in our democratic soul in some way to unleash what could be, as congressman said, weeks of chaos in the house. we have to keep order. we're not chaos agents. that's those guys. let's do the thing that will keep things together. all of those impulses were present in every democratic caucus meeting. and yet, hakeem jeffries, with the aid of nancy pelosi and the guidance that she gave in public and i'm sure in private and the very smart position that alexandria ocasio-cortez came out with, which our votes aren't for free. there's a price. what's that going to look like? and there are things that kevin mccarthy could never have given, things like backing off the impeachment inquiry. he played his caucus -- i don't mean to manipulate it, but he led his caucus by getting the right alliances, understanding how the politics in this would not just benefit him, but that the strength, the constant sit, holding firm, that this was a place where democrats had to hold the line for the kind of core reasons that we have been talking about so far, and i think it's not as historic as kevin mccarthy's down fall. but we don't know how long hakeem jeffreys is going to be the leader. it could be for decades to come. this was the first big test for him, and from the standpoint of every democrat, you can't but say that in the narrowest sense and largest sense, in some sense morally, he passed it. he couldn't have done more to pass it with flying colors. >> i want to bring allie back in. for our viewers who can't see what i have seen, you have earned five years pay in your hustling up and down the stairs behind you. you're rangeling of members. i want to hear your reporting, but i want to get you in on this conversation. it seems there's a risk of the history this was made was the ousting of speaker mccarthy for all the reasons we have been discussing. the historic weakness of the actual speakership that cost him the 15th round of voting to win it, but also the feeling that democrats have adapted and then some to the maga republicans in their midst. i wonder what you're hearing from democrats about their leader pep. >> this is as fascinating moment. a test for this new democratic leadership in jeffries, clark and aguilar, the fact that went into the caucus meeting this morning showed tape of mccarthy on cbs over the weekend effectively throwing democrats under the bus for coming to his aid and helping to avoid a shutdown. they didn't even have to actively whip their members to not save mccarthy's speakership. i know there were some democratic members in what we call frontline districts, those purple areas that are going to be tough reelection battles next year. those members were at least in theory open to the possibility of entertaining saving mccarthy. kevin mccarthy didn't make any overtures to them. republicans made some overtures to the moderate members, once this was clearly happening in a way that would not benefit mccarthy. those didn't work because democrats were so unified. and i heard from the congresswoman amid the voting palooza, she's never seen her caucus more uniied than on this. i think that says so much. it's not just because of the chaos of the last few months. it's not just because of the ways republicans have pushed forward on an impeachment inquiry. january 6th is so palpably part of this conversation for so many of these members. jooi pal, part of the reason there's such confidence and trust in mccarthy from democrats is because of what happened on january 6th. they watched the way that he was aggressive in denouncing trump's role in the immediate days after, and they vividly remember his trip to martin bashir and that photo of a thumbs uptaken with the former president that immediately reversed mccarthy's course on the 6th and the way he was talking about it. this issue, it might be in the past, but it's still actively palpable for so many members on both sides of the aisle. and it really does lend to the lack of trust between both parties. it's why there's such a partisan mood among law makers in so many ways because they don't trust each other, but certainly that applies to kevin mccarthy. and we watched the outcome of that and all of these other reasons today on the house floor as democrats, even those who could have had political upside, stood their ground, stood together, said no, and are now watching republicans have to regroup and figure out where they go next. >> one of the first victims, we should underscore when what he did to our democracy. he's caught on tape with two reporters with the "new york times" describing the 25th amendment as too slow of a method for ridding the country, the nation and the white house of donald trump. and saying to his leadership members, which included liz cheney, that he was going to resign. then he is the one who single handedly resuscitates him politically going to martin bashir and, as you said, giving him the thumbs up. there's the image right there. that's when trump, who might not have been on the ropes with his voters, but definitely was with the elected republicans in washington at times. it's 100% resuscitated and brugt back to life. he proceeds to oust liz cheney, who cannot coexist with kevin mccarthy because she refuses to continue the lies that led to the deadly insurrection. he then blows up his own member, he sent in a member to negotiate his terms for the january 6th select committee. they prevail. he blows that up. they end up with a select committee, which yields a summer of hearings, that had as much to do with dobbs and other things. i wonder when f that weakness led to that vote today. >>. >> reporter: it was hard not to see this as the place we would end up after all he gave away in january. wow don't go through 15 rounds of ballots unscathed. it was highly publicized the things he agreed to give up. he empowered this far-right portion of his conference, who wanted to see things, yes, like giving 72 hours to read a bill and not doing massive spending bills through suspension. everyone has those. but then there's the reality that they were able to pressure him on everything else because he lowered the motion to vacate to one person. we said this earlier. it wouldn't have mattered if the threshold was one or five today, because those members existed. but i do think that it's notable that mccarthy in these waning hours of his speakership, tried to speak to the institution almost in some nonpartisan way that this body needed to function. all of that in spite of the fact when he did notch bipartisan wins in the past, he came out with partisan talking points. when he talks about he's fine if it means having not shut down the government, if he had had any other kind of speakership, maybe that could have rung true to the democrats and maybe they would have come to his aid, but he has a at every turn gloated around them, launched impeachment inquiries and made it easy to say what's the upside to working with you. that's where we landed today. i know that democrats have been opt the air saying this is a function of mccarthy's own make ing. those of us in the press corp. have been talking about it as a moment of gaetz' own making. i think it's both. congressman matt gaetzs was out here on the steps with me. i was talking with him. for him, now that kevin mccarthy is ousted, he's starting to float some names, people like congressman scalise, congressman graves, congressman johnson, all key people who are around mccarthy wo gaetz says he could support, but all of them at this point said they are not going to be challenging mccarthy. so we know republicans will be huddling tonight behind closed doors. you have to imagine this is going to be sbebs. there's a lot of frustration from the floor of them furious at the handful of republicans who have put them in this position. they would rather be pushing forward on any number of issues, actually showing what voters can do. what republicans can do with a majority that voters gave them. instead, it's this. it's the chaos that they hope to push past after january, but they have never been able to shed. >> it's truly remarkable moment. i have had a birds eye view of you running up and down the stairs thank you. stay close. i want to bring into our coverage my former colleague -- we're working on scrambling the special guest to weigh in. let me come back to you, cornell. the analysis has to be made there are fuming republicans, but this is -- to describe them as torn apart feels slightly off base. this is a caucus to validate the results of the presidential election. when every republican was on the same ballot, the lack of integrity, the lack of feelty to the norms of america's democracy, the brutality which they went after, the beingness to eat their own for a betrayal that was nothing more than saying the insurrection was donald trump's fault and let's get to the bottom of how it happened. it makes me feel describing them as ripped apart is inaccurate. they are sewn together by the lies. they are sewn together by the plaimt placement of donald trump above country and party. this isn't the republican party that chal chal and i really recognize in terms of how it functions. i wonder, not everyone in the country is riveted by a vote to oust a speaker or could really sort of explain to their kids what that means and why that matters, but everyone can see this republican party for what it is. a party more intent on destruction and tearing down institutions than leading them. >> i hope you're right. before i go there, you want to lean become in on some comments that our friends have just made. when he came in, you know this. you never want to follow a legend. and you certainly never want to be the first. he's the first african-american to be leader. and there were a lot of quite harping on the aggressive circles and questioning whether or not he was up for the task. and whether or not he would be able to lead the way that pelosi has led. and i agree. this was a big showing for him for the world. but there's an outside and inside game. and he has performed magnificently a at both. you saw the outside game looking at how he held the caucus together and stayed the course and on the inside game, there was also a lot of questions about the politics. and look at the numbers that he's been able to rig up for democrats. look at the numbers that the those living outside the bubble is congressional campaign committee. look at the amount of money that they have been able to raise. not only has he been a good steward on the inside setting up the party for success playing the insider game, but on the outsider game, he has not missed a step with historic nancy pelosi on being able to hold democrats together. i think it bodes well and when you look at him and republicans are going to want to make that like they make nancy pelosi a target of their campaign efforts, they are going to want the to make the head of the democrats the target. it's hard to see this adult in the room, this man who is leading and governing behave like an adult in the room. it's hard to paint him as the boogie man. to that end, i'm struck by -- i have a ringside seat working for obama and doing work for the dnc in 2009 and 2010. hi a ringside seat at the rise of the party. and i'm struck by when i hear all the other freedom caucus people and talking about this is about fiscal responsibility and deficits, i heard that in 2009. i heard that in 2010. and it wasn't about the deficit or about fiscal responsibility. when the power, you saw what they did. and trump has to answer for the deficit that he's pleft this isn't about for one moment, this is not about the deficit. when they are in power, they don't act on it. this is about something much larger. this is about something much more dysfunctional. this is about outrage and aversion and tribalism and they are trying to soften it and water it and make it more pal etable by talk about it as if it's about the deficit and it's not about the deficit. >> ul give you the last word on this broader point. what's not clear, i don't know if it will ever become clear, but what does the republican base think happened today? these are two maga members. kevin is known to my kevin to donald trump. maybe you could do that for me. the leadership of kevin mccarthy was so publicly placid, it gave everything away. he took this great perch, they made movies and books. he reduced it to nothing. in that, he stood without convictions, without integrity and today without enough support to stay in the job. what do you think -- if there is any political tale, what do you think it is? >> well, i would say i have never got -- i like the orange and the yellow starr burst, so i'm happy to make that deal with you. that's a place i can be a uniter, not a divider. secondly, i never want to be in a position i'm speaking for the republican base. i do think that there's an element about that. i think the maga part of this party does look at whatever they think is the establishment, that's largely most of washington, d.c. kevin mccarthy did a lot of things to try to cater to the maga right he was corrupted by his lust for power. as said before it turned him into a pushover in a lot of ways for someone as power crazed and unhinged in a lo lot of ways as matt gaetz. but he is establishment territory. he's an inside player. he's the guy who is dolling out campaign contributions and goes to see the new member and says i want to be supportive. don't cause me trouble, but if you don't, i'll get you that $5,000 campaign check. that's the part of washington culture that i would say both democratic base and republican base agree is kind of appalling and disgusting. i don't think there's going to be a lot of tears shed among maga republicans over kevin mccarthy's fall. but the point you're making is really the central point here. which is in your world of republicans, when we talked about divisions in the republican party, when we were talking about the moderate wing versus conservative wing and the party was torn apart over abortion and it would be cleavage. that's not the kind of dysfunction that now afflicts the republican party. it's not about a cleavage. it's not about a radical diversity of opinion, where one wants to go one way and one wing goes the other. this is a party that's become a mono culture and that's the maga culture. it turns out that one of the things we went from biological science and botany of a lot of other things, there's vigor to diversity. there's vigor in hybrids. not in imbred month no cultures where basically everyone believes the same things. that ends up magnifying the small differences. you have arguments between two segments of the party that are both by any normal standard way, way far out on the right. but in some ways, those kind of arguments, we see this in other places like academia, where you have the arguing with the others. this is the fight they are having now. this has become an inbred cult of personality with donald trump and a maga ecosystem that's totally a mono culture. and mono cultures are not healthy. they don't breed durability and strength. that's what we're seeing here. this thing has become too much itself collapsing on itself. sameness is what's killing it. >> the narcissism of small differences, you have all turned into poets today. i wrote that down to save in my notes. to all of you who hung with us for the last two hours. thank you so much. we are joined right now by my friend and former colleague former host chris matthews. as this story was shaping up, i said you know who i'd like to talk to, i'd like to know what chris matthews thinks of all this. i would guess it's a little sad that also not super surprising a as a student of these figures and these characters. tell me what you thought as you watched this go down. >> the speaker of the house is a constitutional office. it's not like majority leader of the senate. it's part of the constitution. the person is in line to be president right after the vice president. as situations develop like that, take it down a leader is remarkable. a speaker sort of stands above the crowd. he's responsible to both parties. anybody can go into his office and speak to him and treat him as the speaker of the house. so it's not just another political job. it's not just a hatch job. it's a job for a leader, somebody who can pull their party caucus with them. sometimes it's eaier if you're on the left than the democratic party like pelosi, or if you're schumer. somehow you're from one of the coasts, it maybe better because you're one of the people that might cause trouble. and in terms of leadership. pelosi can talk to aoc. biden can talk to bernie. they can talk to each other. it's hard for mccarthy's situation who doesn't have theology that's recognizable. he doesn't recognize the heart and soul of the republican party as it is today, which is mainly maga, but not all maga. there's a lot of quiet conversations that go on. you're not really maga in cases. people are hoping for a future. but it's remarkable because the speaker, the idea to bring him down with one vote is extraordinary. that condition he had to set to become speaker is probably the problem. to allow yourself open to one. and this guy has a grudge. matt gaetz is unhappy now. >> jake sherman tweeted that for the last 12 years, members of the republican house conference have been at war with their leader. and it made me think. you covered a lot of this too. boehner was pushed out by the extreme in his caucus. it is sort of the -- it's not a new new story. it just seems they are going to new lengths to punish their leaders. what's the natural extension? what happens next? >> what came before with boehner, we thought watching it as a journalist, we watched him leave the white house. he made a deal with the president. and you get the sense that his chief of staff had just called him and said we're going to have problems with that. i can already hear the problems. there's going to be objection. you can't pull that deal off. so he couldn't deliver. that was one of the reasons he and the other guys left. they couldn't deliver. but the democrats were not always this same party like they look like today. they are basically once the south turned against the white southerners, once they ran out of the south, with some exceptions like georgia, they were basically a home genius party. it was 70 conservative who opposed tip o'neil. they would end up withes grast lee going along with them in the end. but they were there and were very conservative. they didn't like a the lot of the democratic party programs. and finally after lydon johnson prediction came true. after 245 long-term disagreement, the democratic party is similar to each other. the big city people aren't that different from the suburban people. i'm surprised in this vote. fitzpatrick of bucks county, which is not a wild right wing county, why would he vote against the leadership? some of these people are going to be confronted by more moderate republicans who say, are you that maga you had to vote this way? why did you have to go with gaetz. i don't see gaetz as a leader. tonight think he is a leader. but now they have to pick a leader. they have to colt up with 218 for a leader. it all comes down to 270 electoral votes to be president and 218 to get something through the house and sometimes 60 votes to get through the senate. they are going to need 218 for the next person. this is going to be one raggedy job. wasn't vote, you're out of here. >> it's no way to run a rodeo. i have all these numbers written down. the math becomes a big party of the story. as we watch this unfold, i hope we can continue to call on you. no one knows more about that building than you. >> i'm not enjoying this. i like leadership. i think the republican party has turned on a lot of institutions. you noticed vivek ramaswamy, he's against every institution. now they have turned on their own actual leadership. they have brought down house. this is an extraordinary thing. they have brought down the house. newt gingrich brought down the democrats. they are bringing down their own party. it's extraordinary. their leadership is gone. >> it the really is. less than two hours old as the news sinks in. chris matthews, thank you so much. >> thank you. when we come back, we're going to switch gears. a dramatic day in court in new york city, where the judge overseeing that trump civil fraud case issued a gag order after the disgraced ex-president attacked one of his clerks. we'll tell you about that story, after a quick break. ks we'll tell you about that story, after a quick break. to a child, this is what conflict looks like. children in ukraine are caught in the crossfire of war, forced to flee 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are no term contracts or line activation fees. and you can bring your own device. oh, and all on the most reliable 5g mobile network nationwide. wireless that works for you. it's not just possible. it's happening. it was a late development this afternoon, a very important and serious one. on day two of donald trump's $250 million civil fraud lawsuit in the state of new york. when court resumed after a break this afternoon, trump was there again, he was angrily admonished by the judge. he was scolded for posts he he made on social media today. wow. we believe this is the first. those posts are gone. they have been deleted apparently. after the judge said he ordered them taken down. so what do they say? what did trump share in an e-mail to the millions and millions of followers. why it was an attack on the judge's clerk, featuring a link to her instagram account and a photo of her next to senator chuck schumer. the judge stated plainly that personal attacks on his staff are unacceptable and suggested violations would be met with swift and meaningful sanctions. consider this a gag order on all parties with respect to posting or publicly speaking about any member of my staff. it is the latest edition of trump's long standing woe is me, blow up all the norms routine. his phoney sense of victimhood on which he built a political brand. he wants to think everyone is out to get me sorks he takes cheap shots, even when they violate the law. trump called it, the quote, very unfair. but this isn't a jury trial in new york. but as the judge noted, trump's legal team never asked for a jury trial in new york. even if they had, it is not clear they would have gotten one based on the type of case attorney general tish james brought. a jury trial was never an option. the case made hard tore make as our legal blog notes. when you never ask for a jury trial. during another break today, trump told reporters that he would take the stand, quote, at the appropriate time. so he may soon find himself in an environment, uncomfortable and sometimes dangerous, legally for him. the facts matter and his perceived sense of being a victim does not. we would warn him to be careful what he wishes for. joining us is legal analyst lisa reuben, david jolly is still with us and joining me at the table is msnbc political analyst tim o'brien. there was drama on the house floor, but there was bigger drama in the courthouse behind you today. take us inside. >> reporter: the examination today or the court proceedings really focused on a gentleman named donald bender. he's is donald trump's former ld accountant and was previously responsible for the issuance of these statements of financial condition that are at the heart of this case. but as you noted the bigger drama was not in the trump team's effort to discredit donald bender and make it seem as if it was folly for him to rely on the trump team for information. rather they should have been able to rely on him as a certified public accountant. the real drama is what happened outside the courtroom because trump during a break must have posted the social media post you were talking about earlier that then became the subject matter of the gag order. and hell hath no fury, nikwoel, like a judge whose staff is messed with. i can tell you that from personal experience as a former law clerk. judge engoron talked about the fact no one should be able to talk about his staff in social media posts without suffering consequences. >> tim, trump has attacked doj, fbi, judge chutkan, fani willis, the jurors. it never stops. this is an aggressive response to something he does as easily and readily as the rest of us sort of wake up and reach for coffee. >> a long overdue response. you know, i think looking at this, this is -- it's just another example of how utterly thuggish, obscene, and dangerous this buffoon can be when he's left to his own devices, and he's been doing it for years. he -- he shifts between people who can defend themselves and have the resources to, journalists like you and me, to average people who are innocent bystanders because at the end of the day he's a bully and he doesn't really care about the consequences of his own actions, and i think, you know, we're used to donald trump being obscene and being a thug and being dangerous, but we shouldn't accommodate his thuggishness or his obscenities because doing that is dangerous. i think you're seeing now the repeated challenges of institutions and the rule of law and the court system is people saying, well, you know, he's a former president. it would be wrong to put him in jail if he violates his gag order. this has come up in the january 6th case with judge chutkan. she has repeatedly told him he's trying to public statements could intimidate witnesses, could taint the jury pool, they will pervert the legal process. and i think at the end of the day you can only warn a defendant so many times and then you have to take action, either gag him or he was done today, or you may ultimately have to put him in jail. and i think the real test with donald trump is that he has to observe the same standards as everyone else not in spite of being the ex-president but because he's an ex president. >> what does it say to you he hurredly took it down? >> part of is the sort of leaf like children when they're corrected by parents they close their eyeswreck like i didn't see it, it didn't happen. the other part he recognized right away he was called out being a bully, and i think the third element he'd already done his work. once he puts it up, his tens of millions of followers on social media are going to disseminate. so he can make up the excuse publicly, well, i had second thoughts and i took it down. you know, i think what's so extraordinary about this one, again, is she's a court clerk. she is relatively powerless, and we're in an era where people will come to people's homes. people will take action againstp anyone donald trump identifies as a threat to him, and he knows it. so the fact he went ahead and did it i think says something very deep about who he is, and i think institutions have to rise to this moment and heck it every second of the way with as much discipline as possible because we're heading down a bad path. >> if i could get back every time i said the rule of law is under attack. david jolly, he names names. his posts don't say rule of law and the picture of the rule of law next to a democrat or in front of a baseball bat. he name names. and we choose not to amplify them here is the right thing to do, but to tim's point, they don't need help amplifying them. and donald trump never apologizes when and if violence is an actual extension of the conspiracy theories he's pedaled. he didn't apologize to the person who believed his conspiracy theories he repeat over and over again and broke into speaker pelosi's house and hurt her husband with a hammer. didn't apologize for repeating the big lie, in fact he repeats it. what do we do? it feels like trump's behavior is now such an established pattern. we know what he's going to do. what do the rest of us do? it seems judge engoron gave us a good example. >> one of the tools donald trump reaches for is to incite violence. there's no greater example than january 6th, but we also mention the lone wolf where he identifies a specific individual or target, and his audience receives that message and goes to action. and i think there are two things to address, first donald trump as a defendant or as someone, he needs to be sanctioned. politically he needs to be defeated. his movement needs to be crushed politically at the ballot box because that's what it's going to take. and i think the way to do that politically in america, in a two-party system our politics is informed by the contrast. and john harwood pointed out today you have donald trump the lead candidate for the white house on the republican side being sanctioned by a court, about to be found liable for at least $250 million. you have kevin mccarthy losing the speakership, republicans in chaos, and you have joe biden negotiating prescription drugs for seniors in the medicare program. that contrast is how donald trump ultimately suffers political accountability and loses his power, if you will. now, what has he created culturally, it's a deeper question for us to examine and study. >> and you know we'll do that with your help. lisa, i want to come back to you. donald trump started with this crushing blow. the judge had already decided, had already ruled on in summary judgment the question of fraud. so what is still at stake, and what happened today on the legal front. >> reporter: so, nicolle, let's take your first question first. there are six more claims to decide. and although the judge engoron already decided trump and others engaged in persistent and repeated fraud, intent is not a portion of the statute for which he's already been found liable. the remaining violations are essentially that he has committed repeated persistent fraud and illegality by violating the criminal law having to do with false financial statements, falsifying business records, and committing insurance fraud. if you're the attorney general the reason you want to approve these in a court of law is you want the full smorgasbord you had in your complaint. whether it's by borrowering money from new york lenders or whether it's serving as an officer or director of a new york company, you want all of that and a bag of chips, too. and that's why they're here at trial, too. >> lisa rubin, thank you for being with us. important on every level legally, to our politics, to this brand and this fraud that's been perpetrate on his own voters. thank you for being here. tim, thank you. i'm sorry this was abbreviated. and david jolly, for spending the last two hours with us, thank you so much. we'll be right back. hours with thank you so much. we'll be right back.

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