speaking while i'm interrupting. [inaudible] [inaudible] >> gentlemen, you will have your turn. [inaudible] [inaudible] >> and we focus on the issues that matter? >> everybody knows that. >> if i may. >> holding joe biden accountable. [inaudible] >> so, if you could not understand any of that, you are not alone. the republican candidates onstage at the ronald reagan presidential library, mostly, focused on attacking each other rather than the front runner in the polls. donald trump. talking over each other a lot. trump was instead onstage by himself. in michigan. speaking to a crowd of mostly non union autoworkers. and criticizing the strike against detroit's big three. that is a tight shot there. >> so really, the debate we are going to get to it. and more of the clips. but just overall. >> a mess. >> one republican later, one contributor, every, after another, after another. they were texting, and calling, all saying the same thing. what a mess. what an embarrassment. what a disaster. >> it was, it was a lot of what we just showed in that clip. talking over each other, the moderators having lost control of things. some very crunchy moments. awkward moments. nikki haley, if you wanted to pick somebody, she had several adult moments. but for the most part, you are watching and thinking wow, this is something as people put it, they could stable. where they are all fighting for second place. because donald trump sits comfortably at home. and you watch that and you ask yourself why would donald trump ever participate in that debate? with the late he has, why would he step into that fight. and i think a lot of people, the analysis, you're going through the mushell motions of the debate. who won, who lost. and what should we expect? the question is does it really matter? that things could change, maybe, four major indictments, 91 felony charges against the president. some people were trying to hang alarmed long enough to see if it impacts donald trump. did anybody win last night? did anyone stand out? i could say nikki haley did really well. chris christie, the only one going after donald trump. he will be on our show again this morning. i did know that one thing did it come up. the president of the united states called, effectively for the election of general milley. that did not come up. i wonder what all that candidates think about that. >> it didn't come out. i asked. but that's really par for the course. >> john fast was talking about that yesterday, the media has the cover the stories that are news. the fact that that was not asked, and the massive fraud liability that went down yesterday? i mean this is big one universe versus another that actually lives on facts, these candidates weren't asked about anything. >> yeah, you had the millie, basically invitation to assassinate, you had donald trump looking like he was going to get shut down from doing business in the state of new york. and you had donald trump, also saying that he was going to shut down nbc and comcast. and jonathan layer, that's something that those two really extreme things that he put on truth social, are what the wall street journal editorial page brought. guys, gals, if we keep going in this direction. this guy who just said these things? he is going to be your nominee. and if he is your nominee there is a reason why the people in biden world think that they are going to win. and you look at that stage and everyone yelling at each other last night. i do think that nikki haley probably stood out among the best. but it's so split up. it's just like 2016. they're splitting themselves up. 5% here, 7% there, 9% there, and for people who are saying that it does not make a difference. whether it is blood or not. there is cbs yougov poll that i'm sure you're aware of. and i'm not sure if everyone watching is. but in the early states, iowa, new hampshire. in both states you have about 75% of the voters. who say that they are open to voting for somebody other than donald trump. that they are looking there. and a large chunk of them. about a third of each of those states are saying that they will not vote for donald trump. so there is an opportunity, last night was another blown a chance to get those people united behind somebody that can actually be the guy who says, the chairman of the joint chiefs needs to be assassinated. >> last night was chaotic, messy, sloppy, a lot of major topics were addressed. vivek ramaswamy thank someone for speaking while he was interrupting. because that's what it was. because everyone was just shouting at the other. and it was hard at times. even just to hear what anyone was saying last night. and certainly there was no real breakthrough moment. there were some crunchy moments and some pretty bad one liners we can get through later. but there is, to your point, joe about the polls. they are still an appetite seemingly. to have someone step forward to be the trump alternative. for a long time it was perceived to be governor ron desantis of florida. and the campaign was that a freefall. there is nothing last night. he did not fare poorly but he also did not do that well. last night it's adjusted that his flight was going to stop. there is chatter among republican voters that maybe nikki haley could be that person. in part because in the head to head polls, and we are very early, but in the end that polls she fares the best against president biden. so maybe she will be that choice. she has done pretty well in the debates. i would argue a little better in the first one then the last one. but she is the adult in the room. the question is what trump's lead so big. are republicans really gonna throw their money and haley right now is potentially it is a waste? that is going to be the choice here. do we see some of the candidates drop out potentially to give haley a chance to be the alternative? at least right now no one is. and no one is. and the more the candidate stay. and the more divided against. the better of course it is for donald trump. >> and elise jordan. as far as the lines of the night go. i've got to say, nikki haley, borrowing from happy gilmore. [laughter] and basically uses that happy gilmore line. every time you talk, i feel a little more dumb. at no point, god have more see on your soul. that's basically what she did. so let's give her props at least for borrowing from happy gilmore. >> governor haley had the best sense of reading the room, actually speaking and following the flow of where the arguments were going. as carrying questions than any other candidate onstage. and i think that's where some of the other candidates really fell flat. because they stuck to their rehearsal lines in the moment might not have been there. the timing was off. some of the more uncomfortable exchanges, i just really hope that mike pence is lying about his wife. it's not preplanned because it was so incredibly awkward. it just didn't need to know about his life with his wife. to say that was a bit of a distraction. but you know nikki haley really emerge somewhat the wehner of a very weak night overall. and would it be in the republican parties best sense to coalesce some around one government and one candidate to get behind. one candidate if they do not support donald trump? yes. is it gonna happen? i doubt that that common sense will take hold. >> that is more troubling is that neither the candidates nor anybody in the room addressed the many elephants in the room. here is that moment with nikki haley, and vivek ramaswamy, in an exchange that started when the businessman was asked about having a tiktok account. then i want to get to truly on the other side about this. take a look. >> the answer is i have a rip radical idea for the republican party. we need to win elections. and part of how we win elections is reaching the next generation of young americans where they are. so when i get into office, i am very clear. kids under the age of 16 should not be using social media. we are only going to ever get to declaring independence from china, which i favor, if we actually win. >> this is infuriating. because tiktok is one of the most dangerous social media apps that we could have. and what you've got. honestly, every time hear you, i feel a little bit dumber from what you're saying. because i can't believe. that the tiktok situation. what they're doing is, 150 million people are on tiktok. that means that they can get your talented ex, they can get your financial information, they can get your emails, they can get your text messages. and i think that's exactly what they're doing. and what we are saying is you have gone and you've helped them in china and america. you're not wanted kids the quantico and get on the social media that's dangerous for all of us. you're in business with the chinese that gave hunter biden $5 million. we cannot trust you. we can't trust you. >> you have to love that ex logic. i'm gonna ben moonshine when i become president of the united states. but i'm gonna drink this jug of moonshine right here because it's gonna help me relate to the kids a little bit better. >> coming up, donald trump continues his war on windmills. >> they really drive him crazy. >> and seemed confused about who he ran against in 2016. >> and who he's running against this year. and who he ran against in 2020, and world war two, when it and. it >> will show you those moments. buy one footlong, get one 50% off in the subway app today. now that's a deal worth celebrating. man, what are you doing?! get it before it's gone on the subway app. ♪♪ have heart failure with unresolved symptoms? 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>> we have the former president, who seems to be getting a little bit, i don't know, confused sometimes about who is talking about. what era we are in. whether we have fought world war one, or world war ii, we're headed into world war iii. seems like he's a little of the center? >> the whales in the windmills. those, even for him, are a little tour de force. we can talk about that. but donald trump has been back on the campaign trail. he was in south carolina, he talked about rally. he wasn't somerville, the first event in that state since july. it seem to have lasted about 40 minutes. trump talked about the 2016 presidential race, and appeared to confuse his then opponent, jeff bush with former president george w. bush. >> you know what the beauty was? when i came here. everyone thought bush was going to win. and then they took a poll, and they found out, trump was about up by 50 points. they thought bush, because bush supposedly was a military person. you know what he was? he got us into the middle east. how did that work out, right? >> so jonathan, let me, he was talking of course about george w. bush but conflated to jeb bush who was the governor of florida in 2003, when the united states went into iraq. but for all the talk about joe biden's problems, and his age, and everything else. if you sit and watch, not just those clips, but the 40 minutes in south carolina? it's a red flag so there. >> trump's right about the windmills and the whales. fact-check true on that. no, you're right, for this, it's a couple of things here. first there's a lot of discussion about president biden's age, whether or not he seems to be slipping at all. whether he is up for the job. and one moment last, week where eyebrows were raised. the fund-raiser the president had in new york city. he told the same story. twice now that he had told the first time. that said, president biden has been able to do the job. and the record feet speaks for itself. very correct the point that out. i think we've been given donald trump the pass too much. because he's always sort of frankly spoken like a crazy person in many times. if you read the transcript of his speeches. very hard to follow. he so all over the place tough to pin than what he means. but these red flags, these verbal missteps, they've only picked up in the last few weeks. you are right, the windmills and wales things are nuts. the world war ii reference last week. we had this one confusing the bushes. the list goes on, and on, and on. and one does wonder. as much as paul suggested voters do not care as much about trump's age is bidens. he is only three years younger than president biden. and if biden is gonna be a question about his fitness for the job. then voters should take the same look at trump. who has been all over the place recently. and seems to be, and his social media post, reflect to increasing pressure and strain from criminal cases. and aides say that as well. that it is weighing on him much more than he would like to portray. >> that's a thing. i think joe, the whale thing was bizarre. he said the windmills are driving whales crazy. so they're watching themselves a onshore. >> he is projecting again. >> but the point is, this is a man. not only who is advancing interest. clearly as you watch those performances. that is got a lot on his mind. having nothing to do with whales, or dead purge, or obama, or world war ii. >> i mean, his projecting. i mean he usually protects himself on the people that he is running against. now he's going out and protecting himself on wales. so yes, donald, it's the whales who are crazy right now. it's the whales that are, but think about this. and it goes back to what we said yesterday. which is joe biden sitting there playing by marcus of queensbury roles. the gdp is going to rise by two point 49. i'm in, that's how i talk. okay? but i'm not running for anything. he needs to do better. he needs to start hitting donald trump back. there is a reason why those polls are looking the way they are. because they all talk about biden being too old. biden needs to be talking about trump being too old. listen, this is not hard to do. he doesn't have any weight, for the rioters to get off the picket lines. to write his material. because everybody, this is what donald trump thinks. and what he has thought of the last two weeks. that he ran a primary contest against george w. bush in 2016. and he beat him, even though george w. bush had gotten us into the middle east. and then he thinks, alternatively, that he ran the general election in 2016 against barack obama. and he said last week, nobody thought that we could beat barack obama. but we did! hey stumbled around with obama 's name. and then he went on to say that he beat barack obama. he was going to beat, or know that he paid for aqaba in 2020, as well! and then of course on to the part about where joe biden was going to get this into world war ii. in 2024. the reason why those numbers are higher. and the reason why people are comparing hunter biden's laptop to stealing nuclear secrets is because the republicans have been hammering joe biden over this nonstop. and the white house is considered itself above the fray. this is, like, we mike to the caucus in 1988, using his push lawn mower while george h. w. bush was going around talking about how polluted boston harbour was. and talking about going from one flag factory to another flag factory. and john meacham, by the time it was over, right? and you had michael dukakis on this. i'm not gonna respond to this, i'm not gonna respond to that. you've written 40 ones biography, you know. by the time to caucus responded to the attacks, he lost like 20 points in the poll. his 20 point lead was evaporated. now you have the biden people sitting back, talking bidenomics, while his son is being trashed and while his age is being trashed. and i just want to repeat it for you, because i know you're a's historian. and i'm sure you never know this. donald trump says that he ran against george w. bush in the primary. in 2016. ran against barack obama in the general election, he didn't think that he could be, them but he beat him. ran against barack obama in 2020, and beat him. no matter what the press and the pundits say. this is a guy who is terribly confused. and again, we do not hear that so much because the biden campaign is playing by marcus of queensbury rules. >> i will say one thing. one of the great primary races ever would've been george w. bush versus donald trump. that would've been a cage match. >> excuse me for cutting you off. that would've been over in five minutes. donald trump would have started talking, and george w. bush would've looked at him and he would've gone. and i'm the weather is supposed to be them. what are you talking about? and he would have gutted him. george w. bush would have vanished donald trump's campaign in five minutes. but go ahead. >> i think that to. i think that george w. bush is the one republican who could have undercut this populism. he worried about the populism, he talks about how what happened late in his administration helped to create the conditions for this. he is clear eyed about it. >> i think the thing that worries me the most is not what trump says when he's confused, but what he says when he is not. and there is this series of incredibly sulphurous, unconstitutional, anti-democratic assertions that he is making about what he wants to do if in fact he returns the power. which is a entirely plausible possibility. and so, the focus it seems to me, of all of us. the task of citizenship should be what is he saying? what does he want to do? and, we're talking about somebody. we can't say this enough. it's like the daily office. it's like morning prayer, we should just always say this. there was a mob attacking the capital of the united states. something that did not happen in 1860 61. it happened in 2021. because of this bizarre, and yet, all too real political power and reach that donald trump has. >> cassidy hutchinson will join us. what she says went down behind the scenes at the white house. and how she coped. we will dive into the chaos, and lawlessness, next on morning joe! morning joe! since my citi custom cash® card automatically adjusts to earn me more cash back in my top eligible category... suddenly life's feeling a little more automatic. like doors opening wherever i go... 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's >> cassidy hutchinson joins us now, live in studio. his new book is titled, enough. it reveals much more of what it was like to be a part of the trump administration. no details around january six. cassidy, good, morning good to meet you. let's talk first about that day. july 28th, 2022. you write in that book, you had already given your deposition. so you wondered why they couldn't just run the clips of that. in the january six hearing. he weren't sure you wanted to be the sole witness that day. sitting up there. right until the morning you went out. you said you are looking at that room, and that, crowd and you know how your life was about to change. when you hesitated. what push you out there? what did you think it was important to testify? >> thank you for the kind introduction. there was a physical force, and there was a medical 4:00 force. i actually took for is for my attorney. i turned back to my attorney, right before the doors open. and i turned back to my attorney, and i, was like do you have to do this. and i wanted to dash. i had this last minute surge of untidy. and he said yes. he pushed me out. but i also knew that it was important to be there that day. it was important to have a voice that would be able to speak truth to what exactly happened in the west wing that day. and that the conversation i had with congresswoman liz cheney, the night before the live testimony. it was this really profound moment for me, when she said that it's important for women and little girls to see that we can have people, and women who speak truth to power. and i think that we are in this era where we are in this crisis of accountability. and i have somebody that is there that can speak to those truths. it was important. and knew it was, i was just a little bit nervous to do so. >> understandably so. what really strikes me running through this book, there's a ton of new stuff here as well. is that you were 24 and january six. 24 years old. here 24, and all these alleged leaders. most of the men. throughout the west wing in the capital. who had been around washington for a long time. as they were cowering, you are the one running around saying we have to do something here. this is going to get bad. this is gonna get ugly. and indeed it did. what was it like for you and those moments, in those, days to look around and mark meadows your boss, a guy you knew and respected for a long time was literally sitting on the couch saying the big guy, trump, doesn't want to do anything. and he said okay. the chief of staff isn't going to do anything on january 6th? this is on me, the 24-year-old aid. what did it feel to have your pressure on the shoulders that they? >> i did not look at it like that at the time. the job itself, or a lot of people at work in the white house. and i know you have experience with this as well. >> yes i do. we have a lot of similar experiences. maybe not on the grand scale. but yes a lot. [laughter] >> in the job, looking back with hindsight. i say it with a different perspective now. in those days i saw does my job to be the person to get things done. no matter what. it took. so in those moments it was. i side as my duty and obligation just hope to mark the evils. and spilled hit something. so we did not have a bigger crisis that day. looking back now you know i see that there is a lack of leadership and there was a lack of leadership that day. i don't view it as, i don't have some hero complex over here that i say on january 6th at all. january 6th was a terrible day and i look at the guilt of being complicit. and possibly instrumental of what went up to january 6th. part of the reserve of the book was to shed light on the fact that i didn't just land in the chair on june 28th and our testify. it took a long time to get there. it took a long time to be able to process this and come to terms with what we did and how it was so severe and the threat that it posed on our democracy. >> right in the book. you are a proud republican, proud conservative, turn on to politics by the 2012 presidential campaign when mitt romney was running. you are proud to get the job in the white house. you had respect for donald trump. you worked alongside him. when did that turn? when did that change? when did you feel like the things that we have tolerated for these first three, three and a half years. that's just donald trump being donald trump. and as you read in the book where i'm using in some ways to the staff. when did that change for you? when did it get more serious and you thought to yourself i have to do something here? >> there was a shift in may and generates six. i don't think i was fully cognizant to at the time. and it took a while to get to the point where i was able to admit all those truths to myself. and i wrestled in my lines with. it wasn't -- the trump world mentality where i fall into that. and there's nothing wrong with it necessarily but it's not how i felt. and i really was that year and i have between the administration ending and going to testify and going to the committee. and i realized i wasn't going to live with myself. because it wasn't the republican party i thought it was a part of. this isn't the public service that i had seen myself and i had envisioned a career being with. i think that the point of reflection that i had helps to bring me to these moments. but i'm still working through a lot of those things. >> up next, this and the hook promised foundation is out with a new ad. urging americans to take gun violence seriously. the organizations cofounder and serial joins the show after the break. it's not just designed to look good... it's built to command attention. it's not just a comfortable interior... it's a quiet refuge. they're not just headlights... they light the way forward. the new fully electric audi q8 e-tron models... meet the portable blender we can barely keep in stock. blendjet 2 gives you ice-crushing, big blender power on-the-go. so you can blend up a mouthwatering smoothie, protein shake, or latte wherever you are! recharge quickly with any usb port. best of all, it even cleans itself! just blend water with a drop of soap. what are you waiting for? order yours now from blendjet.com before they sell out again! >> the nonprofit organization, sandy hook policy, has its latest service announcement underscoring how important it is to take threats of gun violence seriously. in the joke just joking. it features renowned comedians who deliver the sobering message. the threats are not jokes. here now, an exclusive first look. [applause] >> so, first day of school. last day of your lives. >> i want to kill people. >> bang, bang, you're dead. >> i set the date. you are going to regret not talking to me. you have no idea what i'm talking about. but you will. >> fair warning, stay home tomorrow if you want to live. >> today is the day? >> today is the day. >> the day my massacre begins. >> some of you guys are all right. don't go to school tomorrow. i mean it. >> after all the name calling, i want to go down as the best school shooter in history. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> joining us now, the co-founder, ceo of the sandy hook promise foundation. nicole hawk lay, she lost her six-year-old son dylan in the shooting in 2012. nicole, nice to see you again. tell us about that psa. and why people need to take these threats, because sometimes people can dismiss as a kid popping off on social media. he sent a text, he's probably joking, don't worry about. it why this is an important message? >> it's an important message for the reasons you just said. a lot of times, when we launch the say something program, we teach kids on how to recognize the warning signs. but we have heard from them that they don't want to report something because they do not think it's serious. they say, if they're putting it out there on social media. they don't mean it. or they're just joking. we want students, and young people, and the adults around them to understand that when you see a threat of violence. you have to take it seriously. because all of the threats that you just sign that psa, were made by real school shooters. and there is a longer version of this that attributes each of those quotes to the different shootings that took place. you need to take the threats of violence seriously because it's not a joke. and it could have life-altering consequences. >> do you get the sense, i have two teenagers, so i'm sort of in this. that people have started to take teachers, and administration, and even kids now i hear and see are taking it more seriously. where 12 years ago, but her sandy hook. come on, now they go wait a minute. if they turns into something deadly i want to be the one that stops them. >> we know that, kids young people, really want to be upstanding. is they don't want to be passive bystanders. when someone needs help, they want to reach in. what we do with our programs of how to unlock that, and how to do something. and we are seeing the tangible evidence that that works. we know that from research, and the program, when the child sees the programming they are more likely to take action. and we also have the tangible evidence that the kids have reported things to the anonymous reporting systems that have already planned and stopped the planned shootings once. and the psa, they're tipping, in and saying this person is going to do something. i need help now. >> so nicole, how do you assess the progress made over the last decade or so about the issue. the tragedy in uvalde, and as we just mentioned the white house has started the new office to try to prevent gun violence. there was a bipartisan bill. it was passed last year. modest, but still the first one in a long time. where do you think we are in, how all hopeful are you are that -- >> steps toward a safer future. i think we should not ignore the cumulative effects of this happening. in states we're seeing things happening, in the white house we're seeing things moving. and a movement has been growing over the next ten years. after grassroots supporters are giving their voice to this and saying this is a issue i care about, this is an issue i'm going to vote on. you need to do something. so the pressure is mounting, further action is to be taking place. >> i work as a communications director when the shooting happened and when your son was killed. and president obama said that was the first day of his presidency. but i know it close second was when the senate failed to pass legislation to deal and be able to pass background in the senate for the shooting, and vice president had where you were, and other parents to say no. it's not gonna do anything. nothing is gonna happen. it's not gonna do anything nothing is gonna happen. mark barton, i know is another friend of ours, who lost his friend daniel, his 18th birthday is today. started, this really got a lot done, and what's impressive is that it is scientific. you understand that you need to address that jokes are a threat. what kind of resources do you have available for people as part of sandy hook promise that will help even outside of government actually? >> well there are a lot of resources on our website that really show what the warning signs are. so it is great for having a conversation to parents having a conversation with the child about these are the things that you should be looking for. if someone is saying these things, if someone is posing these things, or if they say something to me or know the trusted adult. it's also amazing resources for schools. we have had our programs and over 26,000 schools across the country so far reaching over 21 million youth and adults, and that is how you have an impact. is teaching people, how do you recognize the sights and then how do you take action? and then we support that with all of the policy work as well. >> we stand in awe of you every time we watch you, every time you join us, that you've turned around a magical grief into this activism over the last decade. and i think it is important to point out, because there is sometimes a sense of futility about this in this country. we are awash in guns, people are going to die, there are more guns than people, there is a list of which we can do. but there has been a ton of progress made. it's important to underline that elastic aid. how do you wake up every morning and say, this is a fight worth having. we can do better. >> it's a fight with having because people are still dying, and sadly, remove gun violence in our country and school shootings is still increasing. and i simply don't want to continue to speak with parents who lost their children in shootings. this is something that i'm going to continue to do for dylan, for my surviving son jake, and for all children. >> as cultural issues continue to consume american politics, our next guests will explain quote how to argue against identity politics without turning into a reactionary. a reactionary it may be time to see the bigger picture. heart failure and seemingly unrelated symptoms like carpal tunnel syndrome... shortness of breath... and irregular heartbeat could mean something more serious, called attr-cm a rare, underdiagnosed disease that worsens over time. sound like you? call your cardiologist and ask about attr-cm. new projects means new project managers. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job, you immediately get your shortlist of quality candidates, whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. visit indeed.com/hire 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on the subway app. buy one footlong, get one 50% off in the subway app today. now that's a deal worth celebrating. man, what are you doing?! get it before it's gone on the subway app. ♪♪ >> what does it mean to you, how do you define woke? >> there's a lot of things. you want to start with biological boys playing a girl sports. that's one thing. the fact that we have gender pronoun classes in the military now. i mean, all of these things that are pushing what a small minority want on the majority of americans, it is too much. >> that is republican presidential candidate nikki haley explaining her definition of the term woke. culture wars are at the forefront of our nations politics. the far-right is looking to illuminate things like diversity programs in the workplace while democrats are seeking to enhanced protections for minority groups. and our next guest writes, the rigid focus on group identity that now dominates much of the public debate makes it harder for people from different groups to get along. joining us now, founder of the magazine persuasion and the host of the podcast the good fight. yasha monk. he is a contributing editor at the atlantic in a senior fellow at the council on foreign relations. his new book is entitled, the identity trap. a story of ideas and power in our time. and yasha, in your latest essay for the new york times, based on the book entitled out argue against identity politics without turning into a reactionary, you write in part, this. he members of what is been called the intellectual dark web started out opposing the real excesses of supposedly progressive ideas and practices only to morph into cranks. these dynamics have left a lot of americans deeply torn. on one hand, they have serious concerns regarding the new ideas in norms about race, gender, and sexual orientation. they believe the practices like separating people into different groups according to race are deeply counterproductive. on the other hand, these americans are deeply conscious that real injustices against minority groups persist. mr. trump and others on the right derive the new norms as woke. i prefer a more neutral phrase which emphasizes that this ideology focuses on the role that groups play in the society. the identity synthesis. the identity synthesis is a trap. if we collectively fall into it, there will be more, not less, zero-sum competition between different groups. but it is possible to oppose the identity trap without becoming a reactionary. it is time to fight, without shame or hesitation, for a future in which what we have in common truly comes to be more important than what divides us. >> and yasha, thank you so much for being here. we have read your entire book and we thank you. >> it's complicated. >> you, know it's really a question that i have been asking for a long time is that i'm sort of struggling with myself but there has to be this sort of center ground between hard-core identity politics that separates us all into different groups and i would say fascism, but let's just say reactionary, the sort of reactionary thing where you have people on the far-right basically saying we don't talk about any parts of black history or american history that makes us uncomfortable. >> i think that's right, and there is such a tradition in american politics. in my mind it goes from people like frederick douglass to abraham lincoln to martin luther king junior to barack obama. but the thing to understand about these terms of woke or critical race theory that have been debated so much is that they've been included by everybody in the debate. on the right, people say that we want to teach people about slavery in school, that's woke, that's critical race theory, and that's obviously absurd. but a lot of people, my friends and colleagues, wouldn't think well all that woke is just being nice to people. it's recognizing the real injustices of american history or being afraid of trump coming back into the white house in 2024. when you actually look at the origins of these ideas in the way that they're being applied to all kinds of settings today from nonprofits to corporations to schools, as i do in my new book, the identity trap, i think you'll find that these ideas go well beyond that. they're actually based on a explicit rejection of that political tradition that i describe american politics. that the key theories of critical race theory for example have argued that we should reject the defunct racial equality ideology of civil rights movements. as derek row -- bell months put it. the odds of barack obama's at odds as somebody like kimberly crenshaw put it. >> and that does it for the first hour of morning joe: weekend. but we are not done yet. more of the week's top stories after the break. k. sh® card automatically adjusts to earn you more cash back in your top eligible spend category. hi. you don't have to keep tabs on rotating categories... this is the only rotating i care about. ...or activate 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serving 30 years in the united states senate. feinstein it's held by many for her historic first. she was the first woman to chair the senate select committee on intelligence and later the first woman to serve as a top democrat in the senate judiciary committee. she was the first woman president of the san francisco board of supervisors, the first woman mayor of san francisco, and the first woman elected senator of california. her major legislative record includes the federal assault weapon ban, which she champion in 1994, and her five-year review of the cia's detention and interrogation program's. senator feinstein was recently hospitalized after she fell in her home last month. her aides described the incident as a minor slip. as of now, no reports on how the senator died. senator dianne feinstein was 90 years old. confirmed by nbc, and as you said, local outlets and san francisco, jonathan. tell us about the senator. >> a remarkable legacy. and you just listed some of it there, joe. for decades she served the state and served our country. certainly her time but questioning state torture tactics interrogation tactics during the war on terror, a signature part of her legacy. a trail blazer to be sure. wanted to be seen as a role model for so many democratic senators, particularly female senators who have followed her footsteps to capitol hill in recent years. someone who's of course recent health has field a lot of speculation as to her political future. we should just note the governor newsom now, the governor california, will have the ability to point someone on an interim basis to fill that senate seat, and of course an election for now anyways is slated to be november 2024. but that's a conversation for another time. right now of course is about senator feinstein and her family and her remarkable legacy. >> and of course it is a legacy and it is a career that started with tragedy when, i november 27th, 1978, san francisco mayor george -- and san francisco supervisor harvey milk was shot and killed in san francisco city hall. and from there obviously her career moved forward and her passion obviously for gun safety really began it started out of tragedy. claire mccaskill, former senator from missouri is on the phone with us, and senator mccaskill, tell us about senator feinstein. >> you know, joe, the memories just flooded back, and there are a couple of things that i think a really important to say about dianne as we mourn the passing of a giant. eight giant! in political history and such a trail blazer in mentor for thousands of women across this country and california. one of the things i think that is important to remember about her is, when i first came to washington as a senator, i looked around and i began to watch. she was very kind, was a great mentor to me, but i watched which senators were being controlled by their staff and which ones knew their stuff without staff. and dianne was in that very small group of senators. she was not staff driven. she knew her stuff called. her preparation was the best and she knew, she would weigh in on the complicated things and really understand them. and of course the memory that i remember the most, people have no idea the pressure that she was under before she gave that one hour speech on a black chapter in american history, and that was the torture that we have felt out against the war on terrorism. and she asked me to have a martini with her the night before. and so we went to this restaurant and she was, you know, she was firm, she was determined, but she obviously was feeling the weight. she was getting pushed by the intelligence committee not to do it. she was getting pushed by the white house not to do it. she stood up that next day and gabe i think one of the historic speeches that have been given on the senate floor, and i would ask everyone who wants to mourn diane today to go online and watch that speech and see her command of the material and see her commitment to america doing better. that is all that you need to know about who she was as a person and a senator, and i might at as a person, she was fun. we had a great back and forth about the san francisco giants when they beat us in 2014. i had to bring her barbecue. and she always had a smile on her face. she always had time for people that had just arrived at the senate, and the senate will miss her, but this country will miss her. she is going to be seen as a giant for the rest of history. as a giant for the rest of history. >> a giant in san francisco politics, a giant in california politics and a giant in american politics in the united states senate. and as you said, she had it down cold. she, like hillary clinton, to women who never went to a committee hearing meeting without knowing more than just about everybody else around them, because again, they took the job extraordinarily seriously. we are always prepared, and unfortunately, the contrast is all too sharp with many that we see right now in american politics who would go on with a soundbite just to try to get on tiktok or raise a few dollars online. you know clare, i am so glad that you are here with us talking about diane -- dianne feinstein. it's great watching it scrolling through pictures through the years because all too often some politicians, some public figures are remembered for the last chapter of their life when they're in decline. for dianne feinstein, she was in public service for so long in such a dominant figure in california in american politics that it's not over the last factor that we are talking about when she started to fade over the last year in public view. we're talking about the last couple of pages. i do hope that as you have said, people will go back and not have their memory of dianne feinstein framed by what she may have or may not have said over the past six months or a year, but look at what she has said of her incredible 50, 55 years of public service to this country. >> -- she had to fight through a thicket of really tough politics in california. i think people forget that when you have a state that is dominated by one party, and she was in office at times when california was capable of electing republicans in statewide office, that within the mechanic party for her to survive and thrive the way that she did and her determination to take, as you said joe, take the job so seriously. she always knew that if she was more prepared and more harder, that path would be a little easier. it's probably not fair, but she took on that burden of being the first and so many jobs and did it in a way that california just embraced. they sensed her intelligence and her work ethic, and frankly, if you look at the last few years of her life, i hope people see it as her incredible commitment to the job. it was so difficult for her to let go because she did take it so seriously. it did define her life. she loved her family and she and dick had a great partnership, but i think her willingness -- unwillingness to leave did not come from anything about her personal power in aggrandizement, or i need attention. it was really that she felt so connected to the obligation that she had to the people of california and the people of this country. >> and looking at these pictures we see also that she had no fear of spending time and working with members of the republican party. even members with whom she disagreed with on so many issues. she actually was, she was somebody who believed in bipartisanship and was constantly working for it. nbc news chief washington correspondent andrea mitchell has a look back at senator feinstein's life and remarkable career. >> reporter: diane feinstein, a leading woman senator for generations, whose political career in california was launched by tragedy. november 1978, san francisco mayor george moscow nieto to providers member harvey milk were assassinated in city hall. then board of supervisors president diane -- dianne feinstein try desperately to save milk's life. >> both the mayor and supervisor harvey milk have been shot and killed. >> the event cementing her passion for gun reform. she was elected mayor and became a national figure on democratic nominee walter mondale's short list for nominate before he chose -- >> i have the opportunity not to be the first woman in the first mayor asked to go through a interview process, and i view that as a major opening of a door it's something that is very important to do. >> it was the clarence thomas hearings before an all male senate judiciary committee in 1990 when they got feinstein to the senate, as she recalled in 2018. >> and what i see but a all male senate judiciary committee grilling anita hill, and it was not nice. and it was not what one would like to see, and that was my incentive to run in 1992. >> after her decisive senate when, then senator joe biden made her the first woman on the judiciary committee. and congress, she quickly made an impact, leading the charge for an assault weapons ban in 1994. a senate intelligence chair, she took on the cia's waterboarding of prisoners, holding hearings on the bush administration's harsh interrogation techniques. in later years, colleagues fall to her performance to a supreme court conservations, praising republican lindsey graham for getting trump nominee amy coney barrett confirmed just weeks before the 2020 election. >> this has been one of the best set of hearings that i have participated in. >> but through political and personal trials, dianne feinstein's legacy as a trail blazer indoors. andrea mitchell, nbc news washington. washington. she runs and plays like a puppy again. when people switch their dog's food from kibble to the farmer's dog, they often say that it feels like magic. but there's no magic involved. 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there is nothing abstract about this. this is his life work. this is a guy coming in from queens with a huge chip on his shoulder and doing everything you can to build a manhattan real state empire, in the last few days, especially with the appeal being rejected yesterday, show him that very soon that new york empire is going to be shut down if things continue in this direction, and he may even be booted from his wall street location, from trump tower. >> it's being monitored. >> from his westjet. it's being monitored. there are a lot of ways this could turn out, but it looks actually like this civil case may be what is hitting them the hardest right now. >> that's a great point, and despite him being president of the united states, everything has always been about money for donald. it still comes back $2. >> and what people say, why is he doing it, why is he doing it. people say, follow the money. running for president? everything? he likes the attention, but the attention he thinks he can use to generate money. >> the real reason he ran for president was to just get publicity for his business. and look, this system in the gut. there is a very good chance he will have to divest himself of these properties. he is a man and his buildings, his tall buildings, his big buildings, everything is about size. >> it means so much to him that in a very sick moment, many sick moments on september 11th, 2001, you know, as he was watching the trump towers go down, because now i have the tallest building on wall street. it's a lie. but again, that shows you in his fevered brain how much those buildings mean to him. >> there are two things that always meant thanks to him. the money in the stature with people like the people around this table in the media and people in new york city and people in l.a. and celebrities. and he has lost both. that money has shrunk and of course his standing with outside of tupelo, mississippi is a different place. he cannot walk into a restaurant in new york city now. so kind of both of those flags have been taken away, and i think your point is really well taken. yes, to a lot of people going to jail will probably be the scariest specter. but to him, the thing that is really probably sitting with him right now is his big tall-long buildings maybe going away. >> reverend, you've known him for a very long time, would you agree? >> absolutely agree. i think the criminal indictments are something that he can spar with and he feels he may get away with, but i think in the civil case is is a existential threat to him. this is who he is. existentia>> and his family. >> antis's ire to show his dad who is gone. i told you i could be somebody. this takes away any inkling of him proving to dad that he could not rise up. i was thinking just yesterday writing down fifth avenue, i have one grandchild. a four-year-old grandson marcus allen. one day i'll be writing down fifth avenue with migrants on saying, you know that building used to be called trump towers, i tell them the story. that is the thing that battle trump is scared about. he will be removed from the memory of the next generation because there will be nothing called trump in the civil case. >> coming up on morning joe is donald trump running for retribution? he does say i am near retribution. >> and he's going to start his wall street journal story today. they said he's going to start arresting senate german tax -- democrats in their homes. >> our next guest says that is a legitimate concern for current and former government officials. we will talk to the secretary of defense under president trump, mark expert, about the threats posed by a potential second term for his old boss. you are watching morning joe, we will be right back. it may be time to see the bigger picture. heart failure and seemingly unrelated symptoms like carpal tunnel syndrome, shortness of breath, and irregular heartbeat could be something more serious called attr-cm, a rare, under-diagnosed disease that worsens over time. sound like you? call your cardiologist, and ask about attr-cm. i have moderate to severe crohn's disease. now, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are looking up ♪ ♪ i've got symptom relief ♪ ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me. ♪ ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ feel significant symptom relief with skyrizi, including less abdominal pain and fewer bowel movements at 4 weeks. skyrizi is the first and only il-23 inhibitor for crohn's that can deliver both clinical remission and endoscopic improvement. the majority of people on skyrizi achieved long lasting remission at 1 year. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to. liver problems may occur in crohn's disease. ask your gastroenterologist how you can take control of your crohn's with skyrizi. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ learn how abbvie could help you save. whenever you're hungry, there's a deal on the subway app. buy one footlong, get one 50% off in the subway app today. now that's a deal worth celebrating. man, what are you doing?! get it before it's gone on the subway app. ♪♪ we're here today to set the record straight about dupuytren's contracture. surgery is not your only treatment option. people may think their contracture has to be severe to be treated, but it doesn't. visit findahandspecialist.com today to get started. >> earlier joe read from this morning's wall street journal editorial entitled a reminder from donald trump. and it, the board writes, quote, donald trump suggested the other day that general mark milley, the nation's highest military officer, deserves execution, as an death. we realize no one is supposed to take mr. trump's words seriously, but what if some crank does and decides to shoot general milley in his retirement? joining us now, former secretary of defense under the trump administration, mark esper. his memoir, a sacred oath is out now. thank you very much for being on the show this morning. what do you make of the wall street journal's warning, and we get that ten more to that, because a lot of people say actually you are supposed to take what donald trump says seriously. he has proved time and time again that he means what he says. >> look, i think he should take a certain statements seriously, not just because he will act on them, but he draws people around him who are trying to act on them themselves. that was my experience of course running the pentagon during his tenure. and look, these remarks about general mark milley are reprehensible, they're horrible. and then that one american would say it against another american, let alone a former president. a former chief executive. saying to the chairman, a joint chief of staff, a man who served this country honorably for 40 plus years. it's just reprehensible. >> you know mister secretary, it was -- i heard you talking about this supposed, what donald trump and supporters say was a supposed crime committed by general milley, and you pointed out that it happens. you have communications with other countries and in fact general milley was following your orders to call his counterpart in china, just like you were doing and others were doing to say, hey, we know things look a little crazy over here right now, but everything is going to be okay. talk about that. >> yeah, that's right joe. there are at least two issues of concern, what happened on january 2021 of course. i have been fired in november a couple months prior, but the other one happens in mid october 2020 when there's a lot of rhetoric happening on both sides with xi jinping in beijing, in the washington a lot of noise. we learned that the chinese are getting concerned. they don't know what's happening in washington, and they're concerned that there might be some kind of confrontation. i reached out a military or three member of my staff and told them calm down, there's nothing going on here, it's steady as she goes, because i want to prevent a misperception. an accidental conflict. sometimes a confrontation that could lead us to war. and i had milley along with the office, admiral davidson and others a week or so later, and we reported that the conversation have gone well, that the chinese appreciated the messaging, and i directed milley to do the thing to his counterpart. that happened about the end of october. and again, same response. these are things we typically did, whether it was the chinese, the russians, you name it, and i wish that it was responsible statecraft and diplomacy. not a general going rogue. and that is what he cited for doing that i think by folks on the far-right. >> mister secretary, good morning. it's really guys. i think a lot of americans are grateful that you were where you were in your position, the general mattis was there, the general milley, the general kelly were all there to solve as guardrails around this president. the concern going forward for potential second term going forward for donald trump is that none of you will be there in that someone like say michael flynn is the secretary of defense. what are your concerns from a defense point of view about a second donald trump term? >> well look, i think the first year of a second donald trump term will look like the last year of the last donald trump term. so we should all be very concerned by what it means for the republic. and i've said that he is a threat to democracy, and a threat specifically to the institutions of our nation, not least of which is the defense department. and so look, i think we have to think ahead and anticipate what that might look like, which is why, as you look at 2024, the race for the senate becomes very important to. is, who will control the senate? and will they approve trump nominees? all of which i suspect will be hubert loyalists, who would do what he says or activists intentions, and so i think we should be very concerned. >> secretary esper, let's talk about the senate and let's talk about republican senator tommy tuberville and his refusal to lift his blockade to allow military promotions. yes, the senate got around that and put in a few positions in the last week or so, but the vast, vast majority of these posts have gone unfilled because of his hold. tell us about the impact, as you know, that has on the military and frankly what you think should be done about this. military and>> well right, as yi dream of the predecessors i think in may of this year. we wrote a letter saying that they should be stopped, it is unwarranted, unprecedented in many ways to put a hold on these men and women. and overtime, it would affect our readiness and ultimately our security. so look, tuberville has a legitimate policy concern of his own, i was constituents, that's fine. but don't drag the military leadership into it. don't drag the military officers. it just politicizes them in the institution. they should be taken up the civilian appointees of the government. it's out there have been attempts to get it resolved, it hasn't yet. on the other hand, i've called publicly for senator schumer to move the nominees. i think there are some politics being played on that side as well. i'm glad to see that he has done that and we are trying to move people through it, but we have to resolve a bigger issue, and again, keep in mind this is about the politicization of the military as well. it cannot happen. it affects the entire is detection, and affects the officer corps, it affects our military readiness. >> coming up on morning joe, for the first time since the deadly maui wildfires. some residents are finally returning, but officials are now warning the place they once called home will be unrecognizable. unrecognizable from pep in their step to shine in their coats, when people switch their dog's food to the farmer's dog, the effects can seem like magic. but there's no magic involved. 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(♪♪) entresto is the #1 heart failure brand prescribed by cardiologists. it was proven superior at helping people stay alive and out of the hospital. don't take entresto if pregnant; it can cause harm or death to an unborn baby. don't take entresto with an ace inhibitor or aliskiren, or if you've had angioedema with an ace or arb. the most serious side effects are angioedema, low blood pressure, kidney problems, or high blood potassium. ask your doctor about entresto for heart failure. >> in hawaii, authorities will begin allowing the first residents to return to their properties in lahaina. nearly seven weeks after the deadliest u.s. wildfire in more than a century devastated the area. the tragedy claimed the lives of at least 97 people and decimated over 2000 structures. for many, this will be their first glimpse of the area since the fire tore through the historic town. some residents say they are concerned about climate change as they face a daunting task of rebuilding. >> everyone needs to figure out what could we do so this never happens again. because not just fire, but other parts of climate change is happening to us here. >> joining us now, presidential distinguished professor and director for science, sustainability, and the media at the university of pennsylvania. michael mann. his new book is entitled, our fragile moment, how lessons from earth past can't help us survive the climate crisis. it is great to have you on the show in to talk about your book, but i guess the first question is the question that that resident had. i mean, how do you rebuild in lahaina and then protect from climate change? >> especially when you consider we have the hottest summer ever, the hottest august ever, the hottest july ever, the hottest june ever. regardless of where the damage is, we know that it is coming. it is increasing every year. the data shows that. >> yeah, thanks guys, it's good to be with, you and you're absolutely right. we've just been through this unprecedented summer of dangerous, damaging, deadly extreme weather events. the disaster in maui, here in new york, down in philadelphia where i live. we have the worst air quality in the world for several days because of the canadian wildfires driven of course by an epic drought. and so we are reaping what we have sown. we are seeing the damaging impacts of climate change today and sort of the message of our fragile moment is that it's not too late, because it might seem to, late right? with everything we're feeling in witnessing and experiencing it might seem like we are past the point of no return, but when we look to the past, when we look at what is happened on this planet for billions of years, it turns out that it teaches us lots of lessons. one of those lessons is that there is resilience of our environment and of our climate to a point, and we are still within that sort of regime of resilience, but we will soon lean it -- leave it if we fail to ramp down carbon emissions dramatically over the next decade. >> so doctor man, you outlined the summer, and it was an awful summer on the side of the atlantic. it was bad in europe as well, and yet we have come out of this moment where all of the indications are that the world is heating up faster and faster. the ice flows are diminishing. and yet what we see? particularly in europe, we see politicians rolling back commitments to climate change. the british prime minister just said last week that the european union also is slowing down some of their commitments to getting towards net zero. how do politicians bring people along with them so that they don't feel that green policies are a electoral liability? >> yeah, i think it is all about the messaging. what we haven't done a good job of collectively, scientists and science communicators, a noose folks is really driving home the tremendous damage and cost that we are paying right now for the damaging impacts of these extreme weather events. those costs and tens of billions of dollars for outweigh any cost of taking action. in fact, taking action isn't even a cost. it is a investment in a clear real energy economy. so i think it is about the messaging. and the point of my book is, look, if you feel despair, if you feel like we are doomed, the science doesn't tell us that. the obstacles aren't physical, and they're not technological. we have the solutions to this problem. the problem, the obstacles at this point are entirely political, and political obstacles can be overcome. we have a upcoming election where voters will have a opportunity to choose the path that we take. do you want to continue down this road of climate denialism and climate inaction and a everett mortgage planted, or do we want to invest in a better planet for ourselves, our children, and our grandchildren. it is still up to us. >> coming up, bestselling authors james paterson and mike loop are teaming up again. they will tell us about their new thriller, 12 months to live when we come back on morning joe weekend. joe weekend. proferred ,by this pro who won the superbowl twice. and this pro with the perfect slice. and if we profer it, we know america will too. what about spaniards? 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trying to turn in one of them as a fugitive, they just write books. >> they do. i have to ask before even talking about this book, how do you write so many books? you all are so prolific. you must just sit at a desk all day. >> yeah, that's exactly right. somebody said you're lucky if you find something that you like to do, and you should know the show, and it's unbelievable somebody will pay you to do it. and that is us. mike and i love doing this, we love it. >> i don't to waste too much time talking about the book, but i have to tell you james, really quickly, i told mike this story last week. i am always sending my kids inspirational stories, inspirational lessons, inspirational clips. after doing that, after throwing my bread out on the water for years, it finally came back. my daughter since me this story and it is about following your dreams but being smart enough to do it in a realistic way. and there is this advertising person who -- and it is telling your incredible story about, you had the stream, but you kept your job. you pursued the dream and the job. and when i got to the punchline, this remarkable story. a great story. >> if i wasn't advertising, i've been clean for over 25 years. [laughter] >> all right, 12 months to live. tell us about it. mike? >> jim has a saying. jim has a lot of things. but one of them is that people talk about throwing everything except the kitchen sink at readers. no, we throw the kitchen sink to. we have a great character names james smith. she has been given a potentially fatal diagnosis, but she finds out what may be more fatal for this criminal defense attorney, her own client may be trying to kill her. and it is a problem for jane, but jane is a problem solver. she was a hockey player at a great school, joe, boston college. >> oh god. >> one thing that was always said about her is that when she goes into the corner, she comes out with the puck. and so we throw everything at this character. when jim says it is his favorite character, it has to be my favorite character too. >> why is this your favorite character? >> because she is so strong. she is so strong. she has been a car, she has been a private investigator, and now she is a attorney, and she does get a death sentence in this, but she is not going gently into the goodnight. you want every book that you write to be entertaining, but this one really turned out great. it is my favorite book that we have done or that i have done, and i love alex cross, but jean smith i like as much or better. i tell, you this is a weird, thing and it's relevant to the show, but we are getting this constant bad news, bad news, bad news. and we didn't even yesterday at a big bookstore and people literally got up and cheered, out of their seats, about 70 people because we talked about, you deserve, we need a break. we deserve entertainment. whatever that might be. and we think obviously, you know, 12 months to live this great entertainment but we deserve that. we can't just have this toxic stuff all day. literally in our house we have msnbc on all day. all day. it's too much! that's too much! >> it's never too much. mike, it is never too much! i take jim's point. hey, i have been in a writing partnership a few years to. how do you guys do it together? when you both bring to the table, mike? >> i write the music and jim write the lyrics, cat. no, we both know that story drives everything, and we start out the gym is a bear for outlines. we do start out with an extensive outline. we never stick to the whole thing, but it is a great template. and we were fascinated by the idea of this undefeated criminal defense attorney who is now fearful of her own client in dealing with all of these health issues. and jim's right, we all have a sell by date, but what if somebody move yours up. what would you do? and by the way, 12 months to live is out now. next year is eight months to live, we have already finished that, and then it's for. by the time it is one week to live. it is going to be a much shorter novel. >> it's like a writers room, which you have on television. almost every show, most of the movies, there will be several rioters, and for us we talk on the phone half a dozen times a day, but it's like a writers room only over the phone. >> there you go. >> the new book entitled 12 months to live is on sale today. james patterson, mike lupica, thank you both so much. it's always great to have you both on the show this morning. up next, she is a business woman, author, in a former supermodel. now kathy ireland is adding a new title to her resume. we will explain when she joins us next on morning joe. ning joe it may be time to see the bigger picture. heart failure and seemingly unrelated symptoms like carpal tunnel syndrome... shortness of breath... and irregular heartbeat could mean something more serious, called attr-cm a rare, underdiagnosed disease that worsens over time. sound like you? call your cardiologist and ask about attr-cm. my husband and i have never been more active. shingles doesn't care. i go to spin classes with my coworkers. good for you, shingles doesn't care. because no matter how healthy you feel, your risk of shingles sharply increases after age 50. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can also happen. the most common side effects are pain, redness, and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, tiredness, headache, shivering, fever, and upset stomach. shingles doesn't care but, shingrix protects. shingrix is now zero dollars for almost everyone. ask your doctor about shingrix today. hi. i'd like to tell you about a cashew farmer from mozambique named carlos. carlos used to struggle to provide enough food and education for his family. but then everything changed. technoserve helps farmers like carlos lift themselves out of poverty by building skills, connections and confidence. today, carlos and his family are thriving. and so are his cashews. go to technoserve.org and donate today. it's a different way to make a difference. >> our next guest knows all about making a successful career pivot, when that was so successful for her that she became one of the wealthiest former supermodels in the world. in the 80s and 90s, kept the island graced the covers of magazines like vogue and mademoiselle and once appeared in 13 consecutive swimsuit issues for sports illustrated. wow, that is exhausting! but it was in 1993 that she made the term to brand marketing, launching kathy island worldwide. her company, which sells everything from close to luggage to home goods and more has since taken off, generating an incredible 3.1 billion dollars in revenue in 2021. the brand has crowned kathy as one of america's richest southmayd women, and she also recently made forbes and know your value third annual 50 over 50 lifestyle list. and kathy joins us now alongside forbes women editor maggie mcgrath and msnbc contributor and vice chair of the forbes know your value 30 50 summit, whom i aberdeen. great to have you all with us today. kathy, i'm so excited ask you this question and welcomed so much to the show. when you are in your twenties and starting off in modeling, did you ever imagine your career in your 50s and 60s. did you envision a career in your 50s and 60s and 70s and beyond? >> mika, thank you so much. yes, i did. i did not know what it was going to look like, but i have to say mika, last time i was with, you you asked me such a powerful question and i kind of dodged it. you asked me, how did i have the courage to have our company, our brand bear my name. and i think i'm a slow learner and i process and thank you for what you do with encouraging us to know our value. that is so important. and truly mika humility in knowing or value, they are not mutually exclusive. and so to you, thank you to maggie and huma, 50 over 50, all that you are doing. it is having such an impact. mika, i was telling maggie and huma that my little sister cynthia, standup comic and writer and hollywood pressures, oh, the main woman character has to be in her 30s, and she said please tell me because knowing your values, no. she's going to be their 50s. that is awesome. >> i love this. first of all, we need to have her on know your values. so huma and maggie will follow up on that. let's talk about 50 over 50, because we would love to meet your sister, but maggie, explain why cathy was so unbelievably perfect for this year's 50 over 50 list? >> you referenced that cathy started her business in 1983 and it started with socks and came out, but she is really taking the business to new heights over the age of 50. it's basically like a conglomerate. there's home furniture and bedding and outerwear. it does billions of dollars in sales every year. and i mention the outerwear specifically because that was a new category for kathy island worldwide last year. in 2022, she launched it with hsn and these are the business developments that we are looking for with the 50 over 50. we are not looking for people who are investing on the lawyers, we're looking for entrepreneurs who are taking new risks, building new business lines, and not resting on the status quo. and so i think kathy really embodies that. >> tap, take us back to 1983 when your first contemplating making this change. i know it started with a pair of socks and came out. what happened and what advice do you give women who are thinking about making a career pivot. >> thank you huma and maggie. in 1993, i was a pregnant aging model at my kitchen table and we started it brand with a single pair of socks, and i to say, one of the greatest gifts of that long ago modeling career was all of the rejection. when people said it was a really stupid idea, it wasn't going to work, that did not destroy me or stop me. and what 50 over 50 does, it lets us know that women do not have an expiration date. there is no limit. and intellectual property is foundational to our company. it represents 7.8 trillion dollars of u.s. gdp. that is 41% of our gdp, and that is available to women. and so for the woman out there who's thinking, i don't know where to start, i don't have money, take your passionate just keep going and fight through. i am so grateful that we have not put limits on what we do. so whether we are working on real estate, our strategies with our partners at zoom.com slash kathy with family, getting equity from their home, or whether it is roku, bmg, warner bros., magnolia hill, working at home. just wonderful great partners and the furniture march, fashion with hsn as you shared. just great great companies. >> that does it for us this morning. we will be back live at monday morning at 6 am eastern. have a wonderful weekend. derful weekend >> this is the katie phang show live from miami we've got lots florida of news to cover. we have lots of news to and lots cover and lots of question

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